From: mattwell@us.ibm.com Subject: Re: M_Boats: Interesting outboard option Date: 01 Dec 1999 08:39:56 -0500 This was one of those things where I saw the ad, thought it was curious and posted it with out a whole lot of thought. Of course you are right. A light weight gas outboard is more than adequate for an M15 or M17. Even the steam engine outboards I've seen have better power to weight ratios than that diesel. Anyhow, I didn't mean to offend anyone. Matt (who will return to lurking and learning) :) -- All: 150 lbs is too heavy for a 27' sailboat.(Hanging off the stern) There are a couple of inboard single cylinder inboards that are that weight or less. Why not do it up right and put an inboard in a M17. The M15 and M17 is a boat that you can sail anywhere and in just about any wind condition. All you need is a small O/B to get you home if the wind quits. Anyone that is considering putting a 150 lb diesel O/B on a 17' sail boat needs to go to power boating. This is a forum on small sailboats and this power unit is out of place here. drr At 05:43 PM 11/30/1999 EST, you wrote: >In a message dated 11/30/1999 8:14:52 AM US Mountain Standard Time, >mattwell@us.ibm.com writes: > ><< The engine is 4 HP > and weighs > 150 lbs. >> >Matt > Way too heavy for a15............even a 17, and the new 4 stroke gas jobs >do a better job..........quiter too!!!! > >Lenny > > ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: schwarze@VAX2.WINONA.MSUS.EDU (Terry Schwarze) Subject: M_Boats: Newsletter Marketplace Info Date: 01 Dec 1999 09:12:41 -0600 This a last call for any interested parties to advertise a For Sale or a To Buy notice in the Winter issue of the Montgomery Owner's Newsletter. Please forward all particulars, including snailmail address and phone. Please respond by Dec 5th. thanks terry ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: TEHowe@aol.com Subject: Re: M_Boats: Interesting outboard option Date: 01 Dec 1999 13:43:21 EST Matt, I for one was interested to hear of the outboard deisel. I don't think that it is a viable option for our boats, but I think that it was appropriate to post it here, since there has been much discussion of propulsion system's for Montgomerys. Don't be too sheepish about posting it, we are mostly interested in learning more about item's of general marine interest.TH. ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: David Reed Subject: Re: M_Boats: Interesting outboard option Date: 01 Dec 1999 11:34:28 -0800 Matt, Sorry I came on so strong about the diesel O/B. I had a bad day when I sent the reply and the whole idea was kind of strange to me at that time. Certainly you can talk about anything you want to including Y2K issues, which was the reason for my bad day. :) drr At 01:43 PM 12/1/1999 EST, you wrote: >Matt, I for one was interested to hear of the outboard deisel. I don't think >that it is a viable option for our boats, but I think that it was appropriate >to post it here, since there has been much discussion of propulsion system's >for Montgomerys. Don't be too sheepish about posting it, we are mostly >interested in learning more about item's of general marine interest.TH. > > ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: "Gary M. Hyde" Subject: Re: M_Boats: potential rigging; the 17, anchor rode Date: 01 Dec 1999 11:35:36 -0800 A simple but slow way to deal with the anchor rode and chain is to just coil it into a plastic dishpan. They will hold 100 feet of 3/8" line, 15 feet of chain, and an 8-lb Danforth. Cheap, simple to stow, line dries well, but not as cool as a reel. --Gary M15 #235 "Vanilla" Pullman, WA gmhyde@wsu.edu ---------- >From: "Michael Smith" >To: >Subject: Re: M_Boats: potential rigging; the 17 >Date: Tue, Nov 30, 1999, 6:31 PM > > I agree but was hoping you'd figured out an easy way to make it usable w/o > having to get into the forepeak or, at least, into the v-berth. > > We have a Pearson Triton and I put a hose reel (Walmart, under $25 I think) > there and use it just as you say. But I have to pull the anchor up, lay the > rope/line on deck, then go below and by hand roll it onto the reel. Work > well but is a hassle. I visualized a kind of endless rope extending through > the deck attached to a pull so I could pull it and wind by hand but that's > getting too silly. I also thought of leaving the reel on deck but it > doesn't look good and it's in the way. Perhaps a small motor might work. > Maybe, however, I'll just sprawl into the v-berth and keep doing it by hand. > Isn't that hard really. > > The hose reel is worth looking at, by the way. I think it holds 150 to 200 > feet--depending on size of rope since hose is sized similarly. > > Mike > ----- Original Message ----- > From: Conbert H Benneck > To: > Sent: Tuesday, November 30, 1999 7:04 PM > Subject: Re: M_Boats: potential rigging; the 17 > > >> Mike, >> My anchor rode reels were in the forepeak of the boat, high enough off >> the berths so that it didn't interfere with feet that were trying to >> sleep!. The anchor rode fed through a hawse pipe on deck, to the anchor. >> >> Yes, when you use the anchor reel, you have to crawl forward and roll up >> the anchor rode, after the anchor is up and you are underway. (if you >> want to get inventive, you could probably hook up a motor to do the >> rewinding, but I opted for the simplicity of manual operation). >> >> But the advantages are, if you need the anchor "NOW", the anchor rode >> rolls off the reel and is always clear: no hockles, no twists; no >> impediments to instant deployment - and that's the object. If you need >> your anchor "NOW" you don't want to have to crawl into the forepeak and >> straighten out the tangles, remove the life vests from the coils; pull >> out the fishing rod that is causing problems in deployment.......you get >> the idea. >> When you need your anchor, it has to be ready to run instantaneously: >> that's safety! >> >> Connie >> >> ___________________________________________________________________ >> Get the Internet just the way you want it. >> Free software, free e-mail, and free Internet access for a month! >> Try Juno Web: http://dl.www.juno.com/dynoget/tagj. >> > > ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: Shawn Boles Subject: M_Boats: Newsletter Marketplace Info Date: 01 Dec 1999 11:55:06 -0800 Hi All: I just joined the list as a new owner of an old (1978 hull#218) M17. I am planning on refurbishing her for single-handed cruising in the San Juans and look forward to learning from list-members about the best way to set things up for such an endeavor. I have three specific questions to which I could not find answers by searching the archives: 1. I wonder if anyone knows the M17 maximum righting angle and the M17 rating(s) under any of the handicapping systems. 2. I would be interested in knowing how the rudder raising system is supposed to work. I currently have a split gudgeon (a relic from a previous owner) that consists of a short shaft (ca 10") and a longer shaft( ca 22" w/ a pin) both of which must be inserted in the pintels (longer shaft at bottom) with much wiggling and cursing. There is a danger of dropping these parts when unshipping/raising the rudder. Any help appreciated as to what is the standard method for raising the rudder once it is mounted and where I might get a standard rudder gudgeon. 3. Any advice about dodgers for M17 also appreciated. Thanks in advance, Shawn Boles 'Grey Mist' 105 N. Adams St. Eugene, Oregon, 97402 P.S. I would like to subscribe to Montgomery Owner's Newsletter. How do I go about it? Terry Schwarze writes: > This a last call for any interested parties to advertise a For Sale or a To > Buy notice in the Winter issue of the Montgomery Owner's Newsletter. Please > forward all particulars, including snailmail address and phone. Please > respond by Dec 5th. > thanks > terry > > ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: Tom Smith Subject: RE: M_Boats: potential rigging; the 17, anchor rode Date: 01 Dec 1999 12:11:38 -0800 Agreed. The 15 is described by knowledgeable people as a backpackers sailboat. Which is not to say reels and things aren't handy, but if you have a little experience packing, your view of the usefulness of stuff in general changes dramatically when you have to carry it on your back for days on end. I think plastic buckets and milk crates also work well for rode-chain-anchors and stuff like that. But to me the underlying concept of equipment, especially with the 15, should be multi-purpose. For example, sun shower/water storage, or dish towel/body towel, or utility knife/dinnerware, milk crate rode storage/grocery box/chair, like that. I'd also like to comment on auto helms, knot meters, depth finders and other electric gizmos. Take this from a person who had the complete schtick on a previous boat, this crap breaks-all the time. And it requires a fairly sophisticated support system to drive it. I'm not a Luddite. But small is beautiful, and simple is elegant. Also, I'd like to know the holding power of a 150 to 200 lb, four hp outboard-how's that for multi-purpose? Tom Smith -----Original Message----- From: Gary M. Hyde [mailto:gmhyde@wsu.edu] A simple but slow way to deal with the anchor rode and chain is to just coil it into a plastic dishpan. They will hold 100 feet of 3/8" line, 15 feet of chain, and an 8-lb Danforth. Cheap, simple to stow, line dries well, but not as cool as a reel. --Gary M15 #235 "Vanilla" Pullman, WA gmhyde@wsu.edu ---------- >From: "Michael Smith" >To: >Subject: Re: M_Boats: potential rigging; the 17 >Date: Tue, Nov 30, 1999, 6:31 PM > > I agree but was hoping you'd figured out an easy way to make it usable w/o > having to get into the forepeak or, at least, into the v-berth. > > We have a Pearson Triton and I put a hose reel (Walmart, under $25 I think) > there and use it just as you say. But I have to pull the anchor up, lay the > rope/line on deck, then go below and by hand roll it onto the reel. Work > well but is a hassle. I visualized a kind of endless rope extending through > the deck attached to a pull so I could pull it and wind by hand but that's > getting too silly. I also thought of leaving the reel on deck but it > doesn't look good and it's in the way. Perhaps a small motor might work. > Maybe, however, I'll just sprawl into the v-berth and keep doing it by hand. > Isn't that hard really. > > The hose reel is worth looking at, by the way. I think it holds 150 to 200 > feet--depending on size of rope since hose is sized similarly. > > Mike > ----- Original Message ----- > From: Conbert H Benneck > To: > Sent: Tuesday, November 30, 1999 7:04 PM > Subject: Re: M_Boats: potential rigging; the 17 > > >> Mike, >> My anchor rode reels were in the forepeak of the boat, high enough off >> the berths so that it didn't interfere with feet that were trying to >> sleep!. The anchor rode fed through a hawse pipe on deck, to the anchor. >> >> Yes, when you use the anchor reel, you have to crawl forward and roll up >> the anchor rode, after the anchor is up and you are underway. (if you >> want to get inventive, you could probably hook up a motor to do the >> rewinding, but I opted for the simplicity of manual operation). >> >> But the advantages are, if you need the anchor "NOW", the anchor rode >> rolls off the reel and is always clear: no hockles, no twists; no >> impediments to instant deployment - and that's the object. If you need >> your anchor "NOW" you don't want to have to crawl into the forepeak and >> straighten out the tangles, remove the life vests from the coils; pull >> out the fishing rod that is causing problems in deployment.......you get >> the idea. >> When you need your anchor, it has to be ready to run instantaneously: >> that's safety! >> >> Connie >> >> ___________________________________________________________________ >> Get the Internet just the way you want it. >> Free software, free e-mail, and free Internet access for a month! >> Try Juno Web: http://dl.www.juno.com/dynoget/tagj. >> > > ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: "Joe Kidd" Subject: Re: M_Boats: potential rigging; the 17, anchor rode Date: 01 Dec 1999 12:19:06 -0800 Gary, Your dishpan is similar to my solution for keeping the ground tackle under control. I stow 150 ft of 1/2-inch rode, 18 ft of chain and my 8 lb Bruce anchor in a plastic Rubbermaid bin in the forward end of the port cockpit locker. A light danforth-style lunch hook (with a lighter rode and chain) is stowed in a small canvas bag; the bitter end protrudes through a hole in the bottom of the bag. When single-handing, I deploy the anchor from the cockpit (where I can control sails, motor and rode) and worry about securing the rode to the forward cleat after the anchor is set. Joe Kidd M-15 #207 "Poco A Poco" -----Original Message----- >A simple but slow way to deal with the anchor rode and chain is to just coil it >into a plastic dishpan. They will hold 100 feet of 3/8" line, 15 feet of chain, >and an 8-lb Danforth. Cheap, simple to stow, line dries well, but not as cool as >a reel. >--Gary >M15 #235 >"Vanilla" >Pullman, WA >gmhyde@wsu.edu > >---------- >>From: "Michael Smith" >>To: >>Subject: Re: M_Boats: potential rigging; the 17 >>Date: Tue, Nov 30, 1999, 6:31 PM >> > >> I agree but was hoping you'd figured out an easy way to make it usable w/o >> having to get into the forepeak or, at least, into the v-berth. >> >> We have a Pearson Triton and I put a hose reel (Walmart, under $25 I think) >> there and use it just as you say. But I have to pull the anchor up, lay the >> rope/line on deck, then go below and by hand roll it onto the reel. Work >> well but is a hassle. I visualized a kind of endless rope extending through >> the deck attached to a pull so I could pull it and wind by hand but that's >> getting too silly. I also thought of leaving the reel on deck but it >> doesn't look good and it's in the way. Perhaps a small motor might work. >> Maybe, however, I'll just sprawl into the v-berth and keep doing it by hand. >> Isn't that hard really. >> >> The hose reel is worth looking at, by the way. I think it holds 150 to 200 >> feet--depending on size of rope since hose is sized similarly. >> >> Mike >> ----- Original Message ----- >> From: Conbert H Benneck >> To: >> Sent: Tuesday, November 30, 1999 7:04 PM >> Subject: Re: M_Boats: potential rigging; the 17 >> >> >>> Mike, >>> My anchor rode reels were in the forepeak of the boat, high enough off >>> the berths so that it didn't interfere with feet that were trying to >>> sleep!. The anchor rode fed through a hawse pipe on deck, to the anchor. >>> >>> Yes, when you use the anchor reel, you have to crawl forward and roll up >>> the anchor rode, after the anchor is up and you are underway. (if you >>> want to get inventive, you could probably hook up a motor to do the >>> rewinding, but I opted for the simplicity of manual operation). >>> >>> But the advantages are, if you need the anchor "NOW", the anchor rode >>> rolls off the reel and is always clear: no hockles, no twists; no >>> impediments to instant deployment - and that's the object. If you need >>> your anchor "NOW" you don't want to have to crawl into the forepeak and >>> straighten out the tangles, remove the life vests from the coils; pull >>> out the fishing rod that is causing problems in deployment.......you get >>> the idea. >>> When you need your anchor, it has to be ready to run instantaneously: >>> that's safety! >>> >>> Connie >>> >>> ___________________________________________________________________ >>> Get the Internet just the way you want it. >>> Free software, free e-mail, and free Internet access for a month! >>> Try Juno Web: http://dl.www.juno.com/dynoget/tagj. >>> >> >> > > ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: LBarkhuff@cs.com Subject: Re: M_Boats: potential rigging; the 17 Date: 01 Dec 1999 16:06:49 EST Connie, go to K Mart, buy one of the orange reels for an extension cord, (electric) and it has a place to hold on, handle to wind, and plenty of room....Larry ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: "Gary M. Hyde" Subject: Re: M_Boats: potential rigging; the 17, anchor rode Date: 01 Dec 1999 13:42:17 -0800 Good, Tom. Double-duty is very important on little boats. -- Gary ---------- >From: Tom Smith >To: "'montgomery_boats@lists.xmission.com'" >Subject: RE: M_Boats: potential rigging; the 17, anchor rode >Date: Wed, Dec 1, 1999, 12:11 PM > > Agreed. The 15 is described by knowledgeable people as a backpackers > sailboat. Which is not to say reels and things aren't handy, but if you > have a little experience packing, your view of the usefulness of stuff in > general changes dramatically when you have to carry it on your back for days > on end. I think plastic buckets and milk crates also work well for > rode-chain-anchors and stuff like that. But to me the underlying concept of > equipment, especially with the 15, should be multi-purpose. For example, > sun shower/water storage, or dish towel/body towel, or utility > knife/dinnerware, milk crate rode storage/grocery box/chair, like that. > > I'd also like to comment on auto helms, knot meters, depth finders and other > electric gizmos. Take this from a person who had the complete schtick on a > previous boat, this crap breaks-all the time. And it requires a fairly > sophisticated support system to drive it. I'm not a Luddite. But small is > beautiful, and simple is elegant. > > Also, I'd like to know the holding power of a 150 to 200 lb, four hp > outboard-how's that for multi-purpose? > > Tom Smith > > -----Original Message----- > From: Gary M. Hyde [mailto:gmhyde@wsu.edu] > > A simple but slow way to deal with the anchor rode and chain > is to just coil it > into a plastic dishpan. They will hold 100 feet of 3/8" > line, 15 feet of chain, > and an 8-lb Danforth. Cheap, simple to stow, line dries > well, but not as cool as > a reel. > --Gary > M15 #235 > "Vanilla" > Pullman, WA > gmhyde@wsu.edu > > ---------- > >From: "Michael Smith" > >To: > >Subject: Re: M_Boats: potential rigging; the 17 > >Date: Tue, Nov 30, 1999, 6:31 PM > > > > > I agree but was hoping you'd figured out an easy way to > make it usable w/o > > having to get into the forepeak or, at least, into the > v-berth. > > > > We have a Pearson Triton and I put a hose reel (Walmart, > under $25 I think) > > there and use it just as you say. But I have to pull the > anchor up, lay the > > rope/line on deck, then go below and by hand roll it onto > the reel. Work > > well but is a hassle. I visualized a kind of endless rope > extending through > > the deck attached to a pull so I could pull it and wind by > hand but that's > > getting too silly. I also thought of leaving the reel on > deck but it > > doesn't look good and it's in the way. Perhaps a small > motor might work. > > Maybe, however, I'll just sprawl into the v-berth and keep > doing it by hand. > > Isn't that hard really. > > > > The hose reel is worth looking at, by the way. I think it > holds 150 to 200 > > feet--depending on size of rope since hose is sized > similarly. > > > > Mike > > ----- Original Message ----- > > From: Conbert H Benneck > > To: > > Sent: Tuesday, November 30, 1999 7:04 PM > > Subject: Re: M_Boats: potential rigging; the 17 > > > > > >> Mike, > >> My anchor rode reels were in the forepeak of the boat, > high enough off > >> the berths so that it didn't interfere with feet that > were trying to > >> sleep!. The anchor rode fed through a hawse pipe on > deck, to the anchor. > >> > >> Yes, when you use the anchor reel, you have to crawl > forward and roll up > >> the anchor rode, after the anchor is up and you are > underway. (if you > >> want to get inventive, you could probably hook up a motor > to do the > >> rewinding, but I opted for the simplicity of manual > operation). > >> > >> But the advantages are, if you need the anchor "NOW", the > anchor rode > >> rolls off the reel and is always clear: no hockles, no > twists; no > >> impediments to instant deployment - and that's the > object. If you need > >> your anchor "NOW" you don't want to have to crawl into > the forepeak and > >> straighten out the tangles, remove the life vests from > the coils; pull > >> out the fishing rod that is causing problems in > deployment.......you get > >> the idea. > >> When you need your anchor, it has to be ready to run > instantaneously: > >> that's safety! > >> > >> Connie > >> > >> > ___________________________________________________________________ > >> Get the Internet just the way you want it. > >> Free software, free e-mail, and free Internet access for > a month! > >> Try Juno Web: http://dl.www.juno.com/dynoget/tagj. > >> > > > > > ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: "Gary M. Hyde" Subject: Re: M_Boats: Newsletter Marketplace Info Date: 01 Dec 1999 13:44:36 -0800 Shawn: I hope to sail my M15 in the San Juan's next summer. I'll be interested in the feedback you get. Maybe we can share ideas! --Gary M15 #235 "Vanilla" Pullman, WA gmhyde@wsu.edu ---------- >From: Shawn Boles >To: montgomery_boats@lists.xmission.com >Subject: M_Boats: Newsletter Marketplace Info >Date: Wed, Dec 1, 1999, 11:55 AM > > > Hi All: > > I just joined the list as a new owner of an old (1978 hull#218) M17. I > am planning on refurbishing her for single-handed cruising in the San > Juans and look forward to learning from list-members about the best > way to set things up for such an endeavor. I have three specific > questions to which I could not find answers by searching the archives: > > 1. I wonder if anyone knows the M17 maximum righting angle and the > M17 rating(s) under any of the handicapping systems. > > > 2. I would be interested in knowing how the rudder raising system is > supposed to work. I currently have a split gudgeon (a relic from a > previous owner) that consists of a short shaft (ca 10") and a > longer shaft( ca 22" w/ a pin) both of which must be inserted in > the pintels (longer shaft at bottom) with much wiggling and > cursing. There is a danger of dropping these parts when > unshipping/raising the rudder. Any help appreciated as to what is > the standard method for raising the rudder once it is mounted and > where I might get a standard rudder gudgeon. > > 3. Any advice about dodgers for M17 also appreciated. > > > > Thanks in advance, > > Shawn Boles > 'Grey Mist' > > 105 N. Adams St. > Eugene, Oregon, 97402 > > > P.S. I would like to subscribe to Montgomery Owner's Newsletter. How > do I go about it? > > Terry Schwarze writes: > > This a last call for any interested parties to advertise a For Sale or a To > > Buy notice in the Winter issue of the Montgomery Owner's Newsletter. Please > > forward all particulars, including snailmail address and phone. Please > > respond by Dec 5th. > > thanks > > terry > > > > > ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: "Keith Diehl" Subject: Re: M_Boats: Newsletter Marketplace Info Date: 01 Dec 1999 14:49:17 -0700 Terry, can I put a for sale notice in? Flush deck Montgomery 17 #100 for sale. Needs a little work but the price is right. Email kdiehl@xmission.com or call Keith Diehl at (801) 942-6712 for details. Thanks. ----- Original Message ----- Sent: Wednesday, December 01, 1999 8:12 AM > This a last call for any interested parties to advertise a For Sale or a To > Buy notice in the Winter issue of the Montgomery Owner's Newsletter. Please > forward all particulars, including snailmail address and phone. Please > respond by Dec 5th. > thanks > terry > > > > ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: "Keith Diehl" Subject: Re: M_Boats: Newsletter Marketplace Info Date: 01 Dec 1999 14:50:24 -0700 Sorry all, I didn't realize I was replying to the mailing list. That ad was intended for direct mail to Terry. I slap myself on the wrist. ----- Original Message ----- Sent: Wednesday, December 01, 1999 8:12 AM > This a last call for any interested parties to advertise a For Sale or a To > Buy notice in the Winter issue of the Montgomery Owner's Newsletter. Please > forward all particulars, including snailmail address and phone. Please > respond by Dec 5th. > thanks > terry > > > > ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: Weesail@aol.com Subject: Re: M_Boats: Interesting outboard option Date: 01 Dec 1999 17:21:46 EST In a message dated 12/1/99 9:59:23 AM Pacific Standard Time, mattwell@us.ibm.com writes: << Matt (who will return to lurking and learning) :) -- >> Hey Matt, Don't apologize. Some people are to impressed with their own importance. This is also an open forum, for exchanging ideas, and experience/experiences. One of the things I have learned, is that I don't know everything about anything. I have also learned to be patient with those who might be less knowledgeable than myself. So if I keep an open mind, and practice that simple rule, I find myself learning something new everyday. From a fellow lurker, Roy in Bakersfield ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: "htmills@bright.net" Subject: M_Boats: electronic gizmos Date: 02 Dec 1999 06:06:28 PST "I'd also like to comment on auto helms, knot meters, depth finders and = other electric gizmos. Take this from a person who had the complete schtick = on a previous boat, this crap breaks-all the time." Tom, I'm going to take your comment pretty much to heart and avoid all = of the above list except probably the auto helm. [my *home stereo* went south = on me after a short time, for cryin' out loud. Just after the warranty was up, = of course] And I will hold off on a GPS until my regular navigation skills are perfe= cted. (long way to go there). Tod ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: "htmills@bright.net" Subject: M_Boats: stability & dodger Date: 02 Dec 1999 06:40:46 PST "I wonder if anyone knows the M17 maximum righting angle..." I've seen this question posed a number of times and evidently no one knows for sure just what it is. It sure would be interesting if someone were to test their boat in a controlled setting. ;-) "...and the M17 rating(s) under any of the handicapping systems. " In one of the back MON's (spring, '95), someone stated a national average PHRF of 294. "...about dodgers for M17..." With the money I'm saving by passing on the electronics, I might have a small dodger made for me by the guy that did the foredeck cover for my Thistle. I would think it should be possible to make one that would attach to the handrails and yet not block them from use or need any (or minimal) fittings added to the boat. On my Thistle, the guy add= ed only *one* fitting at the bow. All the rest of the attachment used exis= ting parts on the boat. Tod ~~~~~~~ ~~~~~~_/)~~~~~~~ ~~~ ~~~~ ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: rland@win.bright.net Subject: Re: M_Boats: Newsletter Marketplace Info Date: 01 Dec 1999 18:50:10 -0500 Shawn, Here's the info on the M-list --- Rachel All administrative list functions, such as subscribe and unsubscribe, are directed to majordomo@xmission.com, not the list. [Last updated on: Fri Mar 12 13:51:40 1999] Welcome to the Montgomery Sailboat Owner's Mailing List! Please consider saving this message for future reference. Why not post a short note telling us about yourself and your boat and where you sail? We all hope you enjoy the group. Feel free to ask questions, offer advise, or just chat with other members. Our list is small, but friendly. To post to the list, mail to: montgomery_boats@lists.xmission.com To subscribe or unsubscribe, send mail to: majordomo@lists.xmission.com with either subscribe montgomery_boats or unsubscribe montgomery_boats in the body of the message. The list is archived monthly. The archives are named montgomery_boats.YYMM, where YY is the year (look out - 2K disaster waiting to happen!) and MM is the month. Update - Newer archives are named montgomery_boats.YYYY.MM. Y2K disaster averted! There are five ways to view the archives: 1. Use the search engine! http://www.listquest.com/goto/montgomeryboats 2. Go to my home page (http://www.xmission.com/~kdiehl) and click on the "VIEW THE ARCHIVES" link. You can also look at some Montgomery pictures and learn about the Montgomery Owner's Newsletter while you're there. 3. Point your browser at http://www.xmission.com/pub/lists/montgomery_boats/archive 4. FTP to ftp.xmission.com and navigate to the pub/lists/montgomery_boats/archive directory. Then ftp the files you want. 5. Send the message index montgomery_boats to majordomo@lists.xmission.com. You will receive a list of archive file names via e-mail. Decide which one you want and send the message get montgomery_boats archive/FILENAME to majordomo@lists.xmission.com, replacing FILENAME with the name of the file you want. It will be e-mailed to you. Remember, this is a UNIX system so things are case sensitive and that's a forward slash! To learn more about the majordomo list server, visit http://www-gsb.uchicago.edu/comp_svcs/majordu.htm ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: Tom Smith Subject: RE: M_Boats: electronic gizmos Date: 01 Dec 1999 16:00:07 -0800 I probably sound too strident Tod, I love the fact that some engineer somewhere was bright enough to figure out something like an autohelm-I'm a gearhead, I admit it. And some things, surprise, are reliable, and maybe necessary. But geez, in my case we're talking about a 15 foot sailboat. If I'm by myself, and I need to sit on the john, or pour a whiskey, or slap a sandwich together (is there some meaning in the order of those things?), I can heave to. Tom Smith Subject: M_Boats: electronic gizmos Tom, I'm going to take your comment pretty much to heart and avoid all of the above list except probably the auto helmTod ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: "Michael Smith" Subject: Re: M_Boats: Newsletter Marketplace Info Date: 01 Dec 1999 19:07:13 -0600 I am not familiar with the newsletter. Is posting an add free? And how do I get a copy of the newletter? Mike ----- Original Message ----- Sent: Wednesday, December 01, 1999 9:12 AM > This a last call for any interested parties to advertise a For Sale or a To > Buy notice in the Winter issue of the Montgomery Owner's Newsletter. Please > forward all particulars, including snailmail address and phone. Please > respond by Dec 5th. > thanks > terry > > > ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: "Keith Diehl" Subject: Re: M_Boats: Newsletter Marketplace Info Date: 01 Dec 1999 18:52:32 -0700 Terry will probably answer directly, but here's the paragraph from my web site: The Montgomery Owner's Newsletter Another fine source of information, published quarterly by Terry Schwarze. You can have every issues delivered to your door for only $15 a year. Contact Terry at schwarze@vax2.winona.msus.edu for more information. ---------- ----- Original Message ----- Cc: Sent: Wednesday, December 01, 1999 6:07 PM > I am not familiar with the newsletter. Is posting an add free? And how do > I get a copy of the > newletter? > > Mike > ----- Original Message ----- > From: Terry Schwarze > To: > Sent: Wednesday, December 01, 1999 9:12 AM > Subject: M_Boats: Newsletter Marketplace Info > > > > This a last call for any interested parties to advertise a For Sale or a > To > > Buy notice in the Winter issue of the Montgomery Owner's Newsletter. > Please > > forward all particulars, including snailmail address and phone. Please > > respond by Dec 5th. > > thanks > > terry > > > > > > > > > ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: Conbert H Benneck Subject: Re: M_Boats: potential rigging; the 17 Date: 01 Dec 1999 21:13:44 -0500 Larry, Your electrical cable reel is a beautiful idea! It just goes to show that you get too soon old and too late smart. An elegant solution. Connie ___________________________________________________________________ Get the Internet just the way you want it. Free software, free e-mail, and free Internet access for a month! Try Juno Web: http://dl.www.juno.com/dynoget/tagj. ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: Conbert H Benneck Subject: Re: M_Boats: electronic gizmos Date: 01 Dec 1999 21:20:27 -0500 Todd, My two cents worth is: all my electrical equipment worked reliably for 26 years: Brooks & Gatehouse RDF, depth sounder and knot meter / log: an Alpine AM/FM cassette deck: and my Autohelm (5 years). The only thing I did was to make sure that contacts and plugs were clean and free from corrosion. A bit of preventative maintenance goes a long way to insure reliable operation. Connie ___________________________________________________________________ Get the Internet just the way you want it. Free software, free e-mail, and free Internet access for a month! Try Juno Web: http://dl.www.juno.com/dynoget/tagj. ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: Conbert H Benneck Subject: Re: M_Boats: potential rigging; the 17 Date: 01 Dec 1999 20:51:14 -0500 Mike, That's the same system I used, and though a bit awkward, works fine, and lets the anchor rode run free whenever you really need it. Rolling it up again, after use, was just a matter of getting in the vee berth and rotating the reel and seeing that the anchor rode turns were next to each other, and smooth. On my 29 footer, I had more than enough room up forward, so it wasn't much of a problem to roll everything up again. On something smaller, like an M17, then Tod's idea of a reel that you can slide on your forearm sounds like a better way to go. After all, on the 29 footer, my anchor rode was about 5/8th inch in diameter, and 200 feet of it was quite a weight. For an M15 or M17 3/8th inch line should be adequet, and 150 feet would be more than enough, which would allow the forearm reel solution. Connie ___________________________________________________________________ Get the Internet just the way you want it. Free software, free e-mail, and free Internet access for a month! Try Juno Web: http://dl.www.juno.com/dynoget/tagj. ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: Conbert H Benneck Subject: Re: M_Boats: Interesting outboard option Date: 01 Dec 1999 21:01:59 -0500 Matt, Thanks again for the diesel outboard information. In view of the weight of the powerplant, I wonder where they would find an application for it? With the light weight and small size of the Briggs & Stratton engines (5 HP), I've toyed with the idea of mounting one in my dinghy - or it could be mounted in an M15 / M17. My problem has been, a reverse gear. In MESSING ABOUT IN BOATS many months ago, I saw an ad from a man down in South Carolina (?) who had a design for a B&S inboard installation with reverse gear. If he has a good solution to the reverse problem (and a neutral) then a B&S would make a lovely lightweight auxillary for a dinghy or an M15 / M17. Yes, it would be noisy: and yes, you have to take care of the exhaust problem: but since you'd only be running it for short periods of time, the positives might out weight the negatives. ....and the price is right! Connie ___________________________________________________________________ Get the Internet just the way you want it. Free software, free e-mail, and free Internet access for a month! Try Juno Web: http://dl.www.juno.com/dynoget/tagj. ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: sparsons@canby.com (Steve Parsons) Subject: Re: M_Boats: Interesting outboard option Date: 01 Dec 1999 18:32:04 -0800 Matt, If I was the kind of guy to count days, I would say that I had about 30 days, 5 hours, thirty minutes plus change. Got your rollover planning done yet? Steve >Matt, >Sorry I came on so strong about the diesel O/B. I had a bad day when I sent >the reply and the whole idea was kind of strange to me at that time. >Certainly you can talk about anything you want to including Y2K issues, >which was the reason for my bad day. >:) >drr > > > >At 01:43 PM 12/1/1999 EST, you wrote: >>Matt, I for one was interested to hear of the outboard deisel. I don't think >>that it is a viable option for our boats, but I think that it was >appropriate >>to post it here, since there has been much discussion of propulsion system's >>for Montgomerys. Don't be too sheepish about posting it, we are mostly >>interested in learning more about item's of general marine interest.TH. >> >> > > > ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: Harvey Wilson Subject: Re: M_Boats: Interesting outboard option Date: 01 Dec 1999 23:55:17 -0500 Hi Connie... I probably used a gallon and a half in the 3hp Seagull during the last 8 months. I motored twice for about an hour, as there were too many kids (= 3) aboard, and one gets seasick easy, and the 'Gull was new the first time. Otherwise, 10 minutes out and 10 minutes in, except for last saturday, wh= en nephew and I sailed her into the slip. Even with the 8hp 'Rude, I barely used 3 gallons in 8 months. Regards, Harvey/ Ga M-17 Stargazer #294 ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: stephen gray Subject: M_Boats: A Montgomery for under the tree Date: 02 Dec 1999 05:21:08 +0000 I've posted this a time or two before with no luck, but since there are some new folks on the list I'll give it one more shot... If anyone would like a Montgomery that will fit under the Christmas tree (free red bow included) I have a "pretty much like new" (used twice) M 7'-11" dingy that is still for sale. Full sail package, rudder, tiller, oars, bronze oar locks, lots of teak trim, etc...with a trailer if needed (can be car topped). The boat is located in the west (Las Vegas, Nevada) but on the 16th we will be heading for the midwest and would be happy to meet you at the exit ramp of your choice anywhere along the way or within a couple hours of the midwest. It's not cheap, but it's in great shape and far less than what a new one would cost. Might look at an interesting trade...or whatever. With a glass top it would make a great looking coffee table, you could buy it for your wife for Christmas and "borrow" it when spring comes. For you "old timers" sorry about the repeat posting. Thanks, Steve Gray (702) 458-8413 or E-mail to above address ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: AZSKYBUM@aol.com Subject: Re: M_Boats: A Montgomery for under the tree Date: 02 Dec 1999 00:26:37 EST Hey Steve..two questions #1 is Scottsdale on the way east?? #2 how much would the adoption fee be (price) for a dingy for my M-17??? Curtis Clark Azskybum@aol.com 602-953-2571 ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: mattwell@us.ibm.com Subject: Re: M_Boats: Interesting outboard option Date: 02 Dec 1999 09:54:19 -0500 Connie and All, Thanks for the apprecative messages. I'm glad that the information wasn't completely out of place and was at least interesting to some. To David, I definitely understand about Y2K fatigue. I'm pretty much fed up with it too. Hope you have had some better days since. Regarding the diesel outboard: on the web site they mention concrete boats which implies ferrocrete to me. Heavy and cheap, ideal for building a barge like boat for transport of goods in large slow rivers or bays and likely an ideal candidate for an outboard like this. Another wacky idea coming up - please hit delete now if you've had a bad day! :-) If you've ever seen video or photos of people transporting goods on small boats in third world areas you might have seen an outboard motor that consists of a small engine with a straight shaft with a prop on the end. The engine is mounted on the transom at an angle and steering is done similar to a normal outboard by swiveling the whole affair. Because the prop axis is some 30 deg. from the horizontal I'm sure this is much less efficient than a normal outboard configuration but it has no gears and is mechanically much, much simpler. Well, I bought a Ryobi four stroke weed whacker with quick exchange implements and was thinking that with a low pitch prop attachment and some sort of mount it might make for a super cheap and adequate auxillary motor for something like a M15. At one or two horse power it might not be enough for a M17. My biggest concern is corrosion. I don't have to worry about salt here on lake Champlain but that weed wacker was fairly expensive and I wouldn't want it to fall apart from corrosion too quickly. Pro's: four stroke, cheap (relatively), simple, fairly quiet, Con's: longevity in marine environment, powerful enough? will probably void the warranty. Thoughts? Matt -- Please respond to montgomery_boats@lists.xmission.com Sent by: owner-montgomery_boats@lists.xmission.com cc: Matt, Thanks again for the diesel outboard information. In view of the weight of the powerplant, I wonder where they would find an application for it? With the light weight and small size of the Briggs & Stratton engines (5 HP), I've toyed with the idea of mounting one in my dinghy - or it could be mounted in an M15 / M17. My problem has been, a reverse gear. In MESSING ABOUT IN BOATS many months ago, I saw an ad from a man down in South Carolina (?) who had a design for a B&S inboard installation with reverse gear. If he has a good solution to the reverse problem (and a neutral) then a B&S would make a lovely lightweight auxillary for a dinghy or an M15 / M17. Yes, it would be noisy: and yes, you have to take care of the exhaust problem: but since you'd only be running it for short periods of time, the positives might out weight the negatives. ....and the price is right! Connie ___________________________________________________________________ Get the Internet just the way you want it. Free software, free e-mail, and free Internet access for a month! Try Juno Web: http://dl.www.juno.com/dynoget/tagj. ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: "Cosens, Eric D" Subject: RE: M_Boats: Interesting outboard option Date: 02 Dec 1999 09:56:21 -0500 I can't imagine why the warranty would not cover this. ;-) (Neat creative idea though! Wish I'd thought of it.) -----Original Message----- Sent: Thursday, December 02, 1999 9:54 AM Connie and All, Another wacky idea coming up - please hit delete now if you've had a bad day! :-) If you've ever seen video or photos of people transporting goods on small boats in third world areas you might have seen an outboard motor that consists of a small engine with a straight shaft with a prop on the end. The engine is mounted on the transom at an angle and steering is done similar to a normal outboard by swiveling the whole affair. Because the prop axis is some 30 deg. from the horizontal I'm sure this is much less efficient than a normal outboard configuration but it has no gears and is mechanically much, much simpler. Well, I bought a Ryobi four stroke weed whacker with quick exchange implements and was thinking that with a low pitch prop attachment and some sort of mount it might make for a super cheap and adequate auxillary motor for something like a M15. At one or two horse power it might not be enough for a M17. My biggest concern is corrosion. I don't have to worry about salt here on lake Champlain but that weed wacker was fairly expensive and I wouldn't want it to fall apart from corrosion too quickly. Pro's: four stroke, cheap (relatively), simple, fairly quiet, Con's: longevity in marine environment, powerful enough? will probably void the warranty. Thoughts? Matt -- Please respond to montgomery_boats@lists.xmission.com Sent by: owner-montgomery_boats@lists.xmission.com cc: Matt, Thanks again for the diesel outboard information. In view of the weight of the powerplant, I wonder where they would find an application for it? With the light weight and small size of the Briggs & Stratton engines (5 HP), I've toyed with the idea of mounting one in my dinghy - or it could be mounted in an M15 / M17. My problem has been, a reverse gear. In MESSING ABOUT IN BOATS many months ago, I saw an ad from a man down in South Carolina (?) who had a design for a B&S inboard installation with reverse gear. If he has a good solution to the reverse problem (and a neutral) then a B&S would make a lovely lightweight auxillary for a dinghy or an M15 / M17. Yes, it would be noisy: and yes, you have to take care of the exhaust problem: but since you'd only be running it for short periods of time, the positives might out weight the negatives. ....and the price is right! Connie ___________________________________________________________________ Get the Internet just the way you want it. Free software, free e-mail, and free Internet access for a month! Try Juno Web: http://dl.www.juno.com/dynoget/tagj. ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: Conbert H Benneck Subject: Re: M_Boats: Interesting outboard option Date: 02 Dec 1999 10:48:12 -0500 Matt, I like your weed wacker idea. That's the fun of sailing - you get inovative and inventive. My first boat in Germany - a centerboard racing boat had just such an arrangement. The motor was mounted on a plate on the port side of the cockpit and a shaft with the prop - about 4 feet long just hung out in the air, with no other support, other than the coupling nut on the engine, and stirred the water. Worked fine. Your description of the motor with prop shaft hanging on the stern of the boat is a standard way of operation in Malaysia. The fishermen have old automobile engines mounted on a swivel on the stern of the boat; the shaft extends aft and into the water. Control - steering - is via an oversized bicycle handlebar. With the power they generate they put up quite a roostertail of water once they are out of the river mouth. So, the idea isn't new: ....and works! Go for it! Since you are operating in fresh water on Lake Champlain, I wouldn't woory too much about corrosion. In salt water, that's another story. But I think you can make that function, and it sure is a neat lightweight solution. Connie ___________________________________________________________________ Get the Internet just the way you want it. Free software, free e-mail, and free Internet access for a month! Try Juno Web: http://dl.www.juno.com/dynoget/tagj. ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: TEHowe@aol.com Subject: Re: M_Boats: Dodger Date: 02 Dec 1999 12:52:05 EST I've often thought that a low profile dodger for my M-17 would be a logical addition. When the winds come across the plains of Kansas and get Clinton Lake stirred up, it is some of my favorite sailing conditions. My crew, however tends to complain about the splash when we hit larger waves in these conditions ( 25-35 Kt breezes.) I would be interested in any ideas about dodgers, and whether or not anyone has succesfully fabricated or had fabricated a nice one. If there is enough interest, perhaps we could find a bulk purchase deal on a design just for our boats. Thomas Howe, M17 666 " Osprey II" ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: Tom Smith Subject: RE: M_Boats: Dodger Date: 02 Dec 1999 10:02:40 -0800 Rod Johnson built a dodger for his 17 (which he since sold). Try searching the archives. If you don't come up with anything, I have Rod's email address. I don't know if he still monitors the group or not. Tom Smith LineSoft (509) 928-1707 X148 (509) 928-2581 Fax email: tsmith@linesoft.com website: www.linesoft.com -----Original Message----- From: TEHowe@aol.com [mailto:TEHowe@aol.com] Sent: Thursday, December 02, 1999 9:52 AM To: montgomery_boats@lists.xmission.com Subject: Re: M_Boats: Dodger I've often thought that a low profile dodger for my M-17 would be a logical addition. When the winds come across the plains of Kansas and get Clinton Lake stirred up, it is some of my favorite sailing conditions. My crew, however tends to complain about the splash when we hit larger waves in these conditions ( 25-35 Kt breezes.) I would be interested in any ideas about dodgers, and whether or not anyone has succesfully fabricated or had fabricated a nice one. If there is enough interest, perhaps we could find a bulk purchase deal on a design just for our boats. Thomas Howe, M17 666 " Osprey II" ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: LBarkhuff@cs.com Subject: Re: M_Boats: Interesting outboard option Date: 02 Dec 1999 15:08:07 EST I talked with Bob about putting the outboard engine on the 23 into a well in the cockpit like the old Cape Dory and Sea Sprite, and a few other of those full keel type design boats. He thought it might be an option. Why wouldn't this work for the 17? I don't know about the 15? Larry ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: LBarkhuff@cs.com Subject: Re: M_Boats: Interesting outboard option Date: 02 Dec 1999 15:09:10 EST Connie, a problem with the BS engines is they are air cooled..Would there be enough air circulation in the stern (not the dingy_) to cool it? Larry ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: LBarkhuff@cs.com Subject: M_Boats: Montgomery 23 Owners List Date: 02 Dec 1999 16:47:23 EST Hey all you Montgomery 23 aficionados. Did Larry B. share the owners list of 23's with any of you. Now that he has one again he wanted to look at his list and we can't find it in our computer files. I was hoping that someone out there might have one and make my life easier so he doesn't tear up the whole house looking for the hardcopy. Help! If you do, please respond to the list and I'm sure he will be most grateful. Thanks, Jackie B. wife of the aforementioned sailor ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: Richard Lane Subject: Re: M_Boats: Montgomery 23 Owners List Date: 02 Dec 1999 14:56:40 -0800 I think a hard copy of the list is in the M 23 folder I gave to Larry. Regards, Dick > I was hoping that someone > out there might have one and make my life easier so he doesn't tear up the > whole house looking for the hardcopy. > > Help! If you do, please respond to the list and I'm sure he will be most > grateful. > > Thanks, > > Jackie B. wife of the aforementioned sailor ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: GILASAILR@aol.com Subject: Re: M_Boats: A Montgomery for under the tree Date: 02 Dec 1999 18:18:28 EST Steve, What do you want for the boat minus the trailer? I am in Phx,AZ. Thanks, Gary Oberbeck gilasailr@aol.com ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: Shawn Boles Subject: M_Boats: M17 : Handicapping value Date: 02 Dec 1999 16:08:10 -0800 Hi All: FYI - Thanks to Tod Mills, I got a PHRF value of 295. I found a Portsmouth Yardstick (PN) value of 104 from original material that came with my M17. Below are formulas for converting among different system's ratings. PN = PHRF/6 + 55 In our case the PY value and the PHRF check out: 104 = 295/6 + 55 velocity = 3600 / (PHRF + 550) 4.26 knots = 3600 / (295 + 550) cheers, Shawn Boles 'Grey Mist' (M17 Hull#218 - 1978) ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: "Doc Musekamp" Subject: Re: M_Boats: M17 : Handicapping value Date: 02 Dec 1999 18:33:41 -0600 Shawn...Caught your original post and something struck a bell...You have the same hull number as my boat !!..Think I've seen references to it happening before...but my boat is a '76 model with serial number MMP172180676...which decodes to hull 218..Wonder what's up ?? Doc Musekamp M17, #218 ----- Original Message ----- Sent: Thursday, December 02, 1999 6:08 PM > > Hi All: > > FYI - > > Thanks to Tod Mills, I got a PHRF value of 295. I found a Portsmouth > Yardstick (PN) value of 104 from original material that came with my M17. > > > Below are formulas for converting among different system's ratings. > > PN = PHRF/6 + 55 > > In our case the PY value and the PHRF check out: > 104 = 295/6 + 55 > > > velocity = 3600 / (PHRF + 550) > 4.26 knots = 3600 / (295 + 550) > > > > cheers, > > Shawn Boles > 'Grey Mist' (M17 Hull#218 - 1978) > > ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: "htmills@bright.net" Subject: M_Boats: well for outboard Date: 03 Dec 1999 09:04:45 PST "I talked with Bob about putting the outboard engine on the 23 into a well in the cockpit like the old Cape Dory and Sea Sprite, and a few othe= r of those full keel type design boats. He thought it might be an option. Why wouldn't this work for the 17? I don't know about the 15" That sounds like a neat idea....I've never sailed a boat with one of those, but what I have seen of them at marinas and boat shows has always interested me. I've always considered an outboard a big blemish on otherwise nice looking boats. I wonder if it would be asking too much of the smaller boats? On the other hand, it is nice to have a clean hull for low drag.... Tod ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: LBarkhuff@cs.com Subject: Re: M_Boats: Montgomery 23 Owners List Date: 02 Dec 1999 21:11:43 EST Dick, Larry just went through all the paperwork you gave him, and unfortunately there was no list. Thanks anyway, Jackie B. ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: "Michael Smith" Subject: Re: M_Boats: well for outboard Date: 02 Dec 1999 20:36:28 -0600 When we bought our Pearson Triton the previous owner had removed the A4 engine. We hung a 8 hp Nissan outboard on the stern and it worked fine. I measured and measured to decide if I could put it in the lazarette area. The fit was just too close so I never did. I did determine I'd have to cut a hole in the top of the lazarette since the forward facing "hatch" to it was too small. I also measured for a Model 55plus British Seagull which might have fit. We ended up putting in a diesel but the idea of an outboard had merit. I'm not sure there's enough room in a M17 lazarette (or if a M17 even has a lazarette, but I suppose the motor could be put in and a box built around it. It would reduce amount of cockpit space, of course, which is limited already. But it dawns on me that even as a 28.5' Triton looked a bit odd with an outboard, a M17 might look a bit odd without one. Mike ----- Original Message ----- Sent: Friday, December 03, 1999 11:04 AM "I talked with Bob about putting the outboard engine on the 23 into a well in the cockpit like the old Cape Dory and Sea Sprite, and a few other of those full keel type design boats. He thought it might be an option. Why wouldn't this work for the 17? I don't know about the 15" That sounds like a neat idea....I've never sailed a boat with one of those, but what I have seen of them at marinas and boat shows has always interested me. I've always considered an outboard a big blemish on otherwise nice looking boats. I wonder if it would be asking too much of the smaller boats? On the other hand, it is nice to have a clean hull for low drag.... Tod ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: Sandyal55@aol.com Subject: Re: M_Boats: well for outboard Date: 02 Dec 1999 22:30:15 EST On the boats with wells for the outboard, you can't raise the engine and you have more drag. Corrosion is a bigger problem too cause the engine is in the water all the time. Sandy ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: Saltm17@aol.com Subject: Re: M_Boats: M17 : Handicapping value Date: 03 Dec 1999 00:27:38 EST Shawn, How did you get the rating changed? I've been trying for some time to get mine changes but no luck. What info did you have that got the change made? Is the new rating published anywhere so I can give my race committee a place to look for it? Sure appreciate any help you can give. Thanks John M17 #372 ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: Francene Lebowitz Subject: Re: M_Boats: Interesting outboard option Date: 03 Dec 1999 21:45:32 +0100 Matt, Sounds like a great idea- Go for it! I'd be interested in trying one. If you build the prototype, I'm sure there are a few here who will want your plans. Fran M15 #236 ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: stephen gray Subject: Re: M_Boats: A Montgomery for under the tree Date: 03 Dec 1999 06:37:00 +0000 At 12:26 AM 12/02/1999 EST, you wrote: >Hey Steve..two questions #1 is Scottsdale on the way east?? #2 how much would >the adoption fee be (price) for a dingy for my M-17??? >Curtis Clark >Azskybum@aol.com >602-953-2571 > > #1 Kingman Az. (I-40) is on the way but not Scottsdale. Actually we used to make the Phoenix run quite often. I could run it down there most any day, before or after the holidays. If we met half way it would only be a couple of hours for each of us. If that's not possible we have relatives in your part of town and we could make a weekend out of it. #2 When I posted it the last time I think I was asking $1250. w/the trailer. It was around $1800. new and has only been used twice. When I was looking a few years back a new "Fatty Knees" almost the same design Lyle Hess dingy was around $3200. with the sail rig, so I felt the M 7'-11" was a pretty good value at under $2000. If you don't want the trailer we could drop the price or make me an offer or something. Hope this helps. Thanks for your interest. Steve There was another guy in Phoenix that sent me a reply also. You were the first so I will hold off on any other people if you want to let me know. ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: mikit Subject: Re: M_Boats: well for outboard Date: 02 Dec 1999 23:32:13 -0700 >"I talked with Bob about putting the outboard engine on the 23 into a >well in the cockpit like the old Cape Dory and Sea Sprite, and a few other of >those full keel type design boats. He thought it might be an option. Why >wouldn't this work for the 17? I don't know about the 15" > A classic boat with this type of configuration is the Yankee Dolphin. The design does provide an esthetically pleasing stern but as others have mentioned, not enough room to tilt the shaft out of the water. The Dolphin was number 4 on my shortlist when I decided to take the plunge. The design is a beauty with rare style and function that can be found at a reasonable price. Kind of like the M17 which won out. (The reasonable price excluded) http://www.apci.net/~jhuxford/dolphin24.html While on this subject, the standard M17 motor mount on our boat does not provide enough clearance to allow the older 6 hp Sailmaster to tilt up and lock. The method I now use is to tilt the motor up as high as possible and jamb a stick at the pivot point. The shaft still does not come all the way out of the water unless we're on a port tack in a breeze. I plan on beveling the ends of two, 1 ft. pieces of 2" square aluminum tubing and installing them between the stern and motor mount as spacers. The hope is to provide the needed clearance to lock the motor up, with a system that utilizes the existing mount holes in the stern. If that doesn't work, I will go to a movable bracket. Anyone have an opinion on a particular brand pro or con? The Garelick model looks interesting as well as the type used on the new M boats. Does anyone know what brand and model that bracket is? Mike M17 #369 ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: LBarkhuff@cs.com Subject: Re: M_Boats: well for outboard Date: 03 Dec 1999 08:51:05 EST I do not know the manufactures name of the bracket the bob is installing on the 17's now, but it seems to be bulletproof, and I think is the same one that I had on M23 #1. It has two heavy springs so that the raising part is somewhat easier. I know it got the longshaft Merc clear of the water most of the time. If this is a special thing for Tod's boat I don't know, but I really like it. Larry ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: Michael & Lizabeth Towers Subject: Re: M_Boats: well for outboard Date: 03 Dec 1999 08:09:04 -0600 If you'd like to see a small boat that has an outboard motor well, take a look at the Ted Brewer-designed Nimble 20 at http://www.nimbleboat.com/nimble20.html. My M17 came with a Sailmaster 6 on the small Garlock adjustable mount. While the mount is rated for up to 10 hp, if I had to replace it I'd go with the next size up. The one I have doesn't give enough "help" for my wife or young son to be able to lift the motor to the up position. Michael Towers M17 #226 (the late Don Cheatham's old boat--did anyone know Don?) ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: rland@win.bright.net Subject: Re: M_Boats: well for outboard Date: 03 Dec 1999 09:44:09 -0500 Michael - I didn't know Don, but your boat was the first M-17 I ever looked at - guess it hooked me! Rachel ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: Shawn Boles Subject: Re: M_Boats: M17 : Handicapping value Date: 03 Dec 1999 11:35:01 -0800 Doc: Found that my hull # is 276. Sorry for any confusion I might have caused. cheers, Shawn Boles 'Grey Mist' (M17 Hull#276 - 1978) ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: AZSKYBUM@aol.com Subject: Re: M_Boats: A Montgomery for under the tree Date: 03 Dec 1999 19:05:05 EST In a message dated 99-12-03 01:37:39 EST, you write: << scgray >> Dear Steve..Your boat sounds great..I could meet you in Kingman or even go to Vegas I am in South Carolina till Tuesday, I will call you Tuesday to ask some more questions, like is it a light tan to match my M-17? Could you email me offline wiith your phone number please. Thanks Curtis Clark 602-953-2571 ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: Howard A Subject: M_Boats: More Questions Date: 04 Dec 1999 09:42:06 -0600 First, I would like to say that all things being equal, I would rather be sitting in the cockpit, tweaking sails and having a good time than sitting here, but since the boat is laid up on the trailer for the winter, I am left to plan for next year, and learn about things in the meantime. You can delete now or read on!

My last post spawned a number of replies about the merits of self steering, sails, etc. It also caused me to dig out some old articles and books. And this kinda veers into what Tod was talking about with his plans for outfitting his new M-17.

First the issue of autopilot vs. wind vane. The Monitor web site has a good discussion on the merits of both (with a recognized and understandable bias towards windvanes....since that's what they are selling). It can be found at: http://www.selfsteer.com/booklet.html
They pretty much confirm Conrad's views on the subject, which I have come to respect.

But this rather narrow topic also got me to thinking about the two apparent extremes that exist in sailing. One would be the Spartan or purist view, exemplified by the Pardeys (and a lot of small day sailors); the other is the more modern methods that others seem to be adopting, and what you see in the magazines. A famous case in point might be Nigel Calder. By coincidence, the August '99 issue of "Sail" has articles by both the Pardeys and Calder.

In their book "Cost Conscious Cruiser" the Pardeys lay out their blueprint for living on a boat while cruising the world. They stress simplicity, durability and making your boat "unstoppable". Contrast that with Calders new boat Nada, which has every modern feature and gadget out there. The first time I read his article, it all made sense. Then, I read it a second time, AFTER having read Pardey's book. The contrasts are very plain. Calder had everything the Pardeys say you don't want, and both are recognized experts.

What struck me the most was the fact that Calder, a recognized expert on boats and boat systems, had a dickens of a time getting everything on his new boat working at all, often having to get the help of factory reps and several replacement parts for NEW equipment that didn't work. Finally, one day it all works, so he loads up and heads out across the Gulf of Mexico, headed south towards the Yucatan. The prequel to the story was an article published in the July '99 "Sail", where he recounts the troubles he has during his maiden voyage across the Gulf, alternating between sailing, motoring and motor sailing, seemingly eager to drop sails and fire up the motor, hell bent to get to his destination in a few days, at any cost, including running his tanks bone dry, finally reaching his destination with nothing left but fumes. Contrast that with Pardeys, who still seem to get around without a motor.

The contrast continues when you imagine what it cost (time and money) to get Calder's boat operational and keep it all working, vs. a boat without all that stuff on it. And how reliable is it?

So it appears to me that when you start outfitting and rigging a boat, your plan should consider what you expect to get out of it. Is it a first a sailboat, or do you consider the sails the auxiliary? And do you want to go high tech, or traditional? This might also depend on the time and money you have to devote to it. Pardeys live on their boat, and seem to have all the time they want to start, make and end a voyage. But they also admit that if they had to be back at work on Monday morning, they too would have a motor, but not much else.

For most of us, with 15' and 17' day sailors, perhaps all this is a moot point. But as for me, I plan to spend the winter getting the boat in as good of sailing shape as possible, and then use it as a sailboat.....as often as possible!

**********************************

Now for the questions:

For those of you who have traded or purchased sails for the M-17, who did you use? Are these sails a stock or custom item? Mine are all in good shape, but won't last forever. It would be good to know who to call when a problem shows up. My criteria would be 1: Quality and Performance of the product; 2: Service, and 3: Price, and in that order.

Second: my electrical system has that big red selector switch, for batt 1, batt 2 and off. But it only has one battery box. Where does the second battery (if you have one) go? The boat probably only needs one battery for anchor lights, etc. but I have a spare 105 amp deep cycle that might as well go along. Except that the 105 amp is a long case battery that won't fit in the regular sized box.

Also, as far at this motor business is concerned, what about using a transom mount electric trolling motor? If it has enough thrust to move the boat, what would be the drawback, other than the extra battery? Ability to cover miles of distance to get home if the wind dies? If you didn't need it, you could stow it in the port side cockpit locker.

Howard
M-17, #278 ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: AirEvacLen@aol.com Subject: M_Boats: Re:Forget the well........ Date: 04 Dec 1999 10:58:04 EST In a message dated 12/3/99 12:28:12 AM US Mountain Standard Time, mikit@internetcds.com writes: << the standard M17 motor mount on our boat does not provide enough clearance to allow the older 6 hp Sailmaster to tilt up and lock. >> Mike I used a 6hp Sailmaster on my 17 with a spring loaded motor mount. When fully raised, I needed to rotate the motor for the power head to clear the pushpit. Very close tolerance, but very d-o-o-o-able........of course, a little sailer verbage was often used to enhance the operation.....hehehe, Lenny M-23#003 Sea Horse ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: AirEvacLen@aol.com Subject: Re: M_Boats: More Questions Date: 04 Dec 1999 11:02:33 EST In a message dated 12/4/99 8:43:36 AM US Mountain Standard Time, haudsley@tranquility.net writes: << but since the boat is laid up on the trailer for the winter, I am left to plan for next year, and learn about things in the meantime. You can delete now or read on! >> Howard........ WHEW !!!!!!!!!! I'm sure we all join you in hoping for an early spring. hehehe Lenny ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: Conbert H Benneck Subject: Re: M_Boats: Interesting outboard option Date: 04 Dec 1999 13:51:16 -0500 Larry, My thoughts had only been in the direction of mounting a B&S aircooled engine in my dinghy. There cooling air would be no problem because everything is out in the open. On an M17 or M15, it should be no problem either because (to judge from my M15 available space) it's all open so there should be sufficient air flow to the motor, for cooling purposes. The problems that need a solution would be: - availability of a clutch and reverse gear? - how and where do you run a dry exhaust stack? - can you pull on the starter rope with the engine in a suitable installed location? - how do you then reach the B&S built-in gas tank for filling? - and lastly, what about a prop shaft / stuffing box / and access to them? None of these present major problems in a dinghy, but it may be too complex a problem, with too many complications for an installation in an M15 or M17. ....but maybe the answers haven't come to me yet because I haven't sucked on enough gin soaked olives. With Christmas coming up, and brandy alexanders by the open fire, maybe I'll put on my thinking cap and play with my "mock-up B&S engine" from my shredder / chipper, that is languishing in the garage, to check basic fits and possibilities. The trouble is, I have that nice quiet Honda 4 cycle 2 HP engine, and I'm very spoiled with it's operation. A B&S would be a decided step backwards: so is it worth it? Connie ___________________________________________________________________ Why pay more to get Web access? Try Juno for FREE -- then it's just $9.95/month if you act NOW! Get your free software today: http://dl.www.juno.com/dynoget/tagj. ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: Harvey Wilson Subject: M_Boats: well for outboard Date: 04 Dec 1999 14:24:34 -0500 >>>"I talked with Bob about putting the outboard engine on the 23 into a well in the cockpit like the old Cape Dory and Sea Sprite<<< One problem with this setup that I hear from the Calif. Cape Dory crowd i= s that the engine in the well starves for Oxygen. Would love to find a CD-26 w/ outboard. Just twice as easy to find then = a M-23 Regards, Harvey/ Ga M-17 Stargazer #294 ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: "Joe Kidd" Subject: Re: M_Boats: Interesting outboard option Date: 04 Dec 1999 11:52:09 -0800 >The trouble is, I have that nice quiet Honda 4 cycle 2 HP engine, and >I'm very spoiled with it's operation. A B&S would be a decided step >backwards: so is it worth it? Connie, Do you really have to ask? Joe Kidd M-15 #207 "Poco A Poco" ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: LBarkhuff@cs.com Subject: Re: M_Boats: Interesting outboard option Date: 04 Dec 1999 21:22:43 EST I was reading a copy of the Dec Santana (a So Calif sail racing type mag) today, and found an ad for a 12.5 Honda water cooled gas engine with a sail drive, like 21"x 21" type size.......did not give a weight, but I bet this would be great in a 17 or a 23....Larry ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: mikit Subject: Re: M_Boats: Interesting outboard option Date: 04 Dec 1999 22:51:30 -0700 Briggs and Stratton! I would love to recoup the time spent in my youth and young adult life messing with those noisy, oily, vibrating fire breathing, cantankerous pieces of _ _ _ _. It didn't matter if it was a lawnmower, chipper, pump, go-cart or generator they all gave me grief. (And usually some sort of injury while trying to start them.) Like Kenmore appliances, B & S engines are thankfully no longer part of my life. My simple philosophy on this subject, any thing worth doing with a gasoline engine, regardless, is worth doing with a Honda. If gin soaked olives are sucked contemplating a B & S engine project, I hope a few are enjoyed on a Honda retrofit plan. Perhaps B & S's have improved their product during the 15-year ban I have imposed on them, but old wounds are sometimes slow to heal. I apologize for going mental on this subject but I can still feel the sting across my face from the broken start cord of the last one I tried to get going. Carpal tunnel, tennis elbow, Mike M17-369 ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: rland@win.bright.net Subject: Re: M_Boats: Interesting outboard option Date: 05 Dec 1999 00:55:13 -0500 Mike, Don't take this as any sort of diminishment of your pain, but I found your message to be quite funny, so no need to apologize about "going mental." Hondas are kind of addicitive, aren't they? --- Rachel ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: mikit Subject: Re: M_Boats: Interesting outboard option Date: 04 Dec 1999 23:53:27 -0700 Rachel, Yes, Honda's are addictive. The lawnmower I purchased in 1987 starts every spring with 4 pulls or less initially and 1 pull there after. The only non -Honda engine I have is the Sailmaster 6 that came with our M-17. It's definitely noisy and a polluter but it does start when I need it. I'm sure there will be a 4 stroke in our future however. I hear some places, Lake Tahoe in California for example, no longer allow 2 stoke outboards. Can anyone confirm that? I have been away from this group for a while, changed ISP etc. Last I heard you were in a quandary about fiberglass repairs that needed to be done on you boat. Any resolve there? I hope it worked out for you. Mike M-17 #369 ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: rland@win.bright.net Subject: Re: M_Boats: Interesting outboard option Date: 05 Dec 1999 02:00:22 -0500 Mike - I think I read somewhere that the ban was changed so as not to affect small (under 10 h.p.?) motors (or was it just small auxilliaries on sail boats). Gee, I'm just a fount of unsure information, aren't I? Perhaps someone else knows for sure. After reading the "It can't be that bad" posts from this group, I called the Interlux tech people. They felt that the blisters on my boat were "minor," and that it'd be better to just sand and fill those few areas (rather than take all the gelcoat off) and then proceed with the barrier coat and bottom paint. I think that's what I'm going to have done (not as horribly expensive as I first thought), but (unfortunately :-)), I've got a whole winter to decide... Thanks for asking, Rachel ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: Sandyal55@aol.com Subject: Re: M_Boats: Interesting outboard option Date: 05 Dec 1999 09:44:10 EST The saildrive engine line is a good one and various engines were used for this outdrive that dropped through the hull. A friend has a Chrysler 26 with a Volvo Diesel above a saildrive. They are good units but, like an outboard, they use aluminum castings. Extra care is needed for corrosion and galvanic action. Using bottom paint and sacrificial zincs is very important. The 12.5 sounds a little big for a 23 but should be an excellent unit. Sandy ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: LBarkhuff@cs.com Subject: Re: M_Boats: Interesting outboard option Date: 05 Dec 1999 09:57:40 EST My how the world changes it's attitudes aver the decades....I was involved in the sale of the very first Honda 600 cars which came over to the West coast...Everyone said when the Accord came over that real Americans would park your rice burner in Tokyo.........Oh how we mellow...Larry ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: LBarkhuff@cs.com Subject: Re: M_Boats: Interesting outboard option Date: 05 Dec 1999 09:59:02 EST re the Lake Tahoe ban on 2 strokes, I think that got postponed for a couple years, but I may be incorrect....Larry ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: LBarkhuff@cs.com Subject: Re: M_Boats: Interesting outboard option Date: 05 Dec 1999 10:02:02 EST I don't know weight, but I would think the 12.5 is lighter than any diesel on the market...Also, do you know how they close off the bottom hole in the boat...I never did like the OMC type thing with the rubber boot on the transom, like on a lot of older power boats with that stern drive???? Larry ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: "htmills@bright.net" Subject: M_Boats: honda reliability Date: 06 Dec 1999 00:47:41 PST "The lawnmower I purchased in 1987 starts every spring with 4 pulls or less initially and 1 pull there after." Gee, sounds like you got a lemon. A guy I work with has one that starts with 2 pulls in the spring. ;-) Tod ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: mikit Subject: Re: M_Boats: honda reliability Date: 05 Dec 1999 12:16:20 -0700 Maybe it's time to change the plug. Mike ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: Harvey Wilson Subject: Re: M_Boats: Interesting outboard option Date: 05 Dec 1999 17:46:40 -0500 Hi Larry... A sail drive is the worst of both worlds (O/B and I/B) You have the joy of working in tight places, a big hole for the drive uni= t _and_ prop drag. I've priced Ericson 25+ with saildrive...several thousnad more then with = an O/B. Just wish my little 3hp Seagull had a reverse on it instead of F-N. Foun= d a Seagull EFNR 5hp, but it had a short shaft (and I was the second calle= r) Regards, Harvey/ Ga M-17 Stargazer #294 ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: Conbert H Benneck Subject: Re: M_Boats: Interesting outboard option Date: 05 Dec 1999 17:52:11 -0500 Mike, I concur with your thoughts on B&S. I too, long ago went to a Honda lawn mower, and since I've had it, it just runs, ...and runs, ....and runs. Total reliability. My 2 HP Honda outboard on the M15 is the same. My musings started when I built a Bolger NYMPH as a dinghy for my then, ComPac 16 With the longitudinal thwart, it's easy to envision an engine in the deepest part of the curve of the hull, and even if I couldn't solve the forward - neutral - reverse problem, fixed forward wouldn't be so bad, if only for the fun of the fuss and confusion you'd create driving into a marina or harbor with your "mini-toy" powerboat, as you stand, tall, in your admiral's uniform - and try not to fall overboard from laughing. Maybe it was one gin soaked olive too many, but the idea stuck with me, until you brought reason to the discussion. After living with a Honda who, in his right mind (and I think I still am) would go to the effort, labor, and frustration just for a laugh. I certainly won't! I quit! Had my laughs when I used to cruise up the Mystic River to the Mystic Seaport in my Dyer dinghy: seagull burping on the stern, and I sitting on the middle thwart facing forward, steering over the bow with an oar. To do that you have to install an oar lock at the bow, and then be very careful that you only use about 2 square inches of the oar blade for directional input, but it's advantages outweighed the disadvantages; 1. The boat was balanced 2. I could sit facing forward, comfortably, without holding an arm in back of me to control the motor. 3. Steering was fingtip control: just look out that a passing wave doesn't catch your oarblade and make it dig in. Connie ___________________________________________________________________ Why pay more to get Web access? Try Juno for FREE -- then it's just $9.95/month if you act NOW! Get your free software today: http://dl.www.juno.com/dynoget/tagj. ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: LBarkhuff@cs.com Subject: Re: M_Boats: Interesting outboard option Date: 05 Dec 1999 18:51:12 EST I may have to go the Seagull route too, when we find the right one. Will also send you pix of the boat when they are ready.....Talk to you soon Harvey...Larry ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: mikit Subject: Re: M_Boats: Newsletter Marketplace Info Date: 06 Dec 1999 22:22:05 -0700 > Hi Shawn, Looks like another M boat will be on Fern Ridge in Eugene next season. Last year I think I counted six. Maybe we will see you there in the spring. > >2. I would be interested in knowing how the rudder raising system is > supposed to work. I currently have a split gudgeon (a relic from a > previous owner) that consists of a short shaft (ca 10") and a > longer shaft( ca 22" w/ a pin) both of which must be inserted in > the pintels (longer shaft at bottom) with much wiggling and > cursing. There is a danger of dropping these parts when > unshipping/raising the rudder. Any help appreciated as to what is > the standard method for raising the rudder once it is mounted and > where I might get a standard rudder gudgeon. > > > > The rudder has 3 rudder gudgeons similar to the heavy duty items on >page 846 of West Marine catalog. A 1/2" gudgeon pin (same page) is >inserted through the rudder gudgeons and alternately through the three >transom gudgeons. This single pin is close to 3 ft in length. Thats a lot >of gudgeons, no real pintels here. You probably have notice a hole midpoint in the rudder, a cleat on the stern, and a short piece of line through a small hole near mid point on the stern coaming. The line goes through the hole in the rudder, the rudder is pulled up as high as possible, and the line is cleated off. You're now ready to launch / retrieve the boat or maneuver in shallow areas. Mike M17 #369 ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: mikit Subject: Re: M_Boats: Interesting outboard option Date: 06 Dec 1999 23:46:53 -0700 Connie, Got a kick out of your method of steering the dinghy and can appreciate the inherent danger. It brought to mind a device called an atlatl. This device was used by the Aztecs to throw a lightweight spear with considerable mechanical advantage. I imagine if your oar dug in it would in fact become an effective atlatl with you being the spear. Might make an interesting sport where you could compete for distance and accuracy. We had the opportunity to visit Mystic Seaport, the Thimble Islands and Newport, RI in October. All beautiful areas and ideal places to sail. I had never seen sailboats like a couple that were in Newport. Probably 125'/150' in length with a four spreader mast as big as a transmission pole that furled the main internal. The stern opened out to make a patio and the tender had a dinghy about the size of an M15. It's hard to imagine someone designing, building, sailing, or owning boats like that. Mike M17#369 > >Had my laughs when I used to cruise up the Mystic River to the Mystic >Seaport in my Dyer dinghy: seagull burping on the stern, and I sitting >on the middle thwart facing forward, steering over the bow with an oar. >To do that you have to install an oar lock at the bow, and then be very >careful that you only use about 2 square inches of the oar blade for >directional input, but it's advantages outweighed the disadvantages; >1. The boat was balanced >2. I could sit facing forward, comfortably, without holding an arm in >back of me to control the motor. >3. Steering was fingtip control: just look out that a passing wave >doesn't catch your oarblade and make it dig in. > > > > >___________________________________________________________________ >Why pay more to get Web access? >Try Juno for FREE -- then it's just $9.95/month if you act NOW! >Get your free software today: http://dl.www.juno.com/dynoget/tagj. ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: "Tom Richards" Subject: M_Boats: M17 Trailer Questions Date: 08 Dec 1999 08:15:12 -0700 This is a multi-part message in MIME format. ------=_NextPart_000_0018_01BF4154.59464920 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable HI, I just purchased an M17 (1982 #344) and need to do some work to = strengthen it for trailering. The trailer that it came with is not the = best (the rear cross-member snapped in two during the trip from Dallas = to my home in Colorado), and I have been weighing my options. I can = repair the trailer (I'm leaning towards this due to the cost of a new = one) or replace it. My questions are these. The forward portion of the = bunks have pushed in the hull (just forward of the keel) where it rests. = Is this a common occurrence? Should I shorten the bunks a little to put = more load on the center of the hull? I am planning on glassing in a = stringer on each side with a crossmember for strength and support. Also = I plan to add a roller just forward of the keel to take some of the load = off of the forward pressure on the hull. I would appreciate any thoughts = on this. Also, where is the best place to buy standing rigging and hardware, and = does anyone have specifications on rigging, sails etc? Thanks, Tom Richards email: gldd@grandlakecolorado.com ------=_NextPart_000_0018_01BF4154.59464920 Content-Type: text/html; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable

HI,
I just purchased an M17 (1982 = #344) and need=20 to do some work to strengthen it for trailering. The trailer that it = came with=20 is not the best (the rear cross-member snapped in two during the trip = from=20 Dallas to my home in Colorado), and I have been weighing my options. I = can=20 repair the trailer (I'm leaning towards this due to the cost of a new = one) or=20 replace it. My questions are these. The forward portion of the = bunks have=20 pushed in the hull (just forward of the keel) where it rests. Is = this a=20 common occurrence? Should I shorten the bunks a little to put more load = on the=20 center of the hull? I am planning on glassing in a stringer on each side = with a=20 crossmember for strength and support. Also I plan to add a roller just = forward=20 of the keel to take some of the load off of the forward pressure on the = hull. I=20 would appreciate any thoughts on this.
Also, where is the best place to = buy=20 standing rigging and hardware, and does anyone have specifications on = rigging,=20 sails etc?
Thanks,
Tom Richards
email: gldd@grandlakecolorado.com=
------=_NextPart_000_0018_01BF4154.59464920-- ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: Grove777@aol.com Subject: Re: M_Boats: M17 Trailer Questions Date: 08 Dec 1999 11:54:56 EST does any one know the difference between biased tires and radials and what is best for a boat trailer??? ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: "Bill Riker" Subject: RE: M_Boats: M17 Trailer Questions Date: 08 Dec 1999 21:29:54 -0500 This is a multi-part message in MIME format. ------=_NextPart_000_0005_01BF41C6.CE9A1E00 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit to: Tom Richards, My M15 is a 1982 model that I bought last year in Texas. The previous owner, an engineer, was uncomfortable with the bow overhang and mounted a roller about as far forward as he could, in order to take some of the load off the forward ends of the bunks. I believe the bow roller was a fairly recent addition, but there isn't any noticable deformation of the hull. The trailer is a galvanized Dilly, bigger than the standard M15 trailers, and is in good condition. Bill Riker M-15 #184 Storm Petrel ------=_NextPart_000_0005_01BF41C6.CE9A1E00 Content-Type: text/html; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable
to:=20 Tom Richards,
 
My M15=20 is a 1982 model that I bought last year in Texas.  The previous = owner, an=20 engineer, was uncomfortable with the bow overhang and mounted a roller = about as=20 far forward as he could, in order to take some of the load off the = forward ends=20 of the bunks.   I believe the bow roller was a fairly recent = addition,=20 but there isn't any noticable deformation of the hull. =
 
The=20 trailer is a galvanized Dilly, bigger than the standard M15 trailers, = and is in=20 good condition. 
 

Bill Riker
M-15 #184
Storm Petrel =

 
------=_NextPart_000_0005_01BF41C6.CE9A1E00-- ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: "Bill Riker" Subject: RE: M_Boats: M17 Trailer Questions Date: 08 Dec 1999 21:35:55 -0500 Grove, From previous postings, it seems the conventional wisdom is that bias ply tires are best for trailer - radials supposedly permit more sway. However, some of our M-boats are riding on radials and I don't remember anyone saying they had a problem with them. The radial owners seem to feel their radials handle better and ride more smoothly than bias tires. There is more info in the archives. My trailer came with a new set of bias tires and I have had no problems whatsoever. Bill Riker M-15 #184 Storm Petrel ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: Conbert H Benneck Subject: Re: M_Boats: M17 Trailer Questions Date: 08 Dec 1999 21:52:46 -0500 Tom, Quickie reply to your trailer problems 1. get a welding shop to weld the aft cross member - no big deal. They will probably put a piece on the broken part to add strength - or cut out the weak area and weld in a new, full strength piece. 2. If your bunks are causing the hull to deflect, then you have to raise the boat on the bunks: i.e., new keel rollers; or some change of the geometry so that the bunks only hold the boat from tilting, but the keel rollers carry the weight. Can you adjust the position of the bunks relative to the hull when it is on the keel rollers? That would be another solution. Connie ___________________________________________________________________ Why pay more to get Web access? Try Juno for FREE -- then it's just $9.95/month if you act NOW! Get your free software today: http://dl.www.juno.com/dynoget/tagj. ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: Conbert H Benneck Subject: Re: M_Boats: M17 Trailer Questions Date: 08 Dec 1999 22:03:56 -0500 Grove 777, Bias tires are what everyone used to use about 50 years ago. Then came Michelin with their belted radial tires and the world has improved. The bias tires have tire cords that criss-cross under the tread in an "X" pattern. Michelin's radial tires have the wires running under the tread around the circumference of the tire. These wires are hoops that support the tire shape and maintain it's geometry. Radial tires are the standard tires on all passenger cars today, and probably on most trucks too. The M web site had a long discussion on trailer tires, and the gist of the discussion was that car-type radial tires are better. Based on that discussion, I bought some Goodyear radial tires for my M15 trailer, and they have performed as expected - great. Trailer rides well and the radial tires provide a bit of added "give" to the springs. Have now towed the M15 on the radials for about 1500 miles at 70 - 75 MPH. Connie ___________________________________________________________________ Why pay more to get Web access? Try Juno for FREE -- then it's just $9.95/month if you act NOW! Get your free software today: http://dl.www.juno.com/dynoget/tagj. ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: Conbert H Benneck Subject: Re: M_Boats: Interesting outboard option Date: 08 Dec 1999 21:37:15 -0500 Mike, You're right! My steering system worked fine but you had to stay on top of it all the time, or else ......., or else your oar dug in and with the speed of the boat, very rapidly dug in further and further. The solution was to jerk the oar out of the oar lock (for God's sake don't use one that is closed on top!); retrieve it and when the commotion had ceased, put the oar back in place and continue on your course; with Admiral's hat not too askew from the activity! But it worked very well; steering was very sensitive (too sensitive), but it solved a lot of problems: 1. sitting in the stern of the dinghy with the bow in the sky. 2. sitting in trhe stern with your right arm behind you trying to hold the tiller of the outboard to hold course. 3. The position in (2) precluded the proper appreciation of the opposite sex since you were all scrunched up. 4. Dragging a big wake since the boat was improperly trimmed. My steering system allows you to: 1. Sit in the center of the dinghy so that the dinghy operates on it's proper waterline. 2. Keeps your right arm available for holding a beer or for waving at the opposite sex as they look at you in astonishment. (further advantage of steering system - you stand out from the crowd!) 3. The outboard operates at a normal propeller depth - and with the thrust of the propeller in the proper plane. 4. Improves boat speed 5. Is a more suitable position for a ship's Captain! The minor disadvantages are: 1. You have to ship the oar and lurch for the tiller on the outboard to keep from going in a circle and to make a landing. 2. This phase of the operation requires a bit of dexterity. Misjudgement, or falling overboard results in levity from the onlookers, who, up till now have been admiring your technique. But the advantages outweight the disadvantages. Sailors have always been jugglers and acrobats and this is just another step in the training of a true sailor. Connie ___________________________________________________________________ Why pay more to get Web access? Try Juno for FREE -- then it's just $9.95/month if you act NOW! Get your free software today: http://dl.www.juno.com/dynoget/tagj. ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: Grove777@aol.com Subject: Re: RE: M_Boats: M17 Trailer Questions Date: 08 Dec 1999 23:56:49 EST have you found it difficult to get bias tires to replace or a spare??? ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: Barefoot Subject: Re: M_Boats: M17 Trailer Questions Date: 08 Dec 1999 20:20:46 -0800 (PST) http://championtrailers.com/tire_art.html Check out this web page. It will answer your question. --- Grove777@aol.com wrote: > does any one know the difference between biased > tires and radials and what is > best for a boat trailer??? > > __________________________________________________ Do You Yahoo!? Thousands of Stores. Millions of Products. All in one place. Yahoo! Shopping: http://shopping.yahoo.com ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: "Keith Diehl" Subject: Re: M_Boats: M17 Trailer Questions Date: 08 Dec 1999 23:56:58 -0700 Try a search of dejanews for more threads on trailer tires. As I recall, they almost always concluded with much anecdotal evidence that radial car tires work fine for boat trailers. ----- Original Message ----- Sent: Wednesday, December 08, 1999 9:20 PM > http://championtrailers.com/tire_art.html > Check out this web page. It will answer your question. > --- Grove777@aol.com wrote: > > does any one know the difference between biased > > tires and radials and what is > > best for a boat trailer??? > > > > > > __________________________________________________ > Do You Yahoo!? > Thousands of Stores. Millions of Products. All in one place. > Yahoo! Shopping: http://shopping.yahoo.com > > ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: Wilsometer@aol.com Subject: M_Boats: Trailer Tires (again) Date: 09 Dec 1999 03:42:44 EST In a message dated 12/8/1999 10:15:55 PM, you wrote: <> I checked out the above site, and would agree that it contains good=20 information as to the differences between bias and radial tires. I would,=20 however, make the following case for ignoring--or even going directly=20 against--their advice regarding not using passenger car radials--at least=20 when it comes to M15 trailers with 12" rims. 1) Most of the M15's I have seen sit atop Trail-Rite trailers with 12" rims.= =20 The bias ply trailer tires available for 12" rims seem to range from terribl= e=20 to merely bad. Poor build quality, too soft and/or crumbly rubber compounds= ,=20 and tires that are grossly out of round seem to be among the more common=20 complaints. 2) Whereas Goodyear and a few other manufacturers offer true radial *trailer= *=20 tires (Goodyear Marathon Trailer, for example), I was not able to find any=20 for 12" rims. High quality passenger car radials, on the other hand, are=20 available in 12" sizes, though you might have to have your tire shop order=20 them. 3) The stock Trail-Rite trailer for the M15 seems to be over sprung. Radial= =20 tires (passenger car radials by necessity) provide considerable additional=20 shock absorption as a function of both the radial design and the softer tire= =20 sidewalls. While in theory the less stiff sidewalls of the passenger car=20 radials are more prone to sway or "fishtail" motion than their stiffer=20 sidewall bias-ply counterparts, I think it is fair to say that the collectiv= e=20 experience of those on this list that have gone over to car radials suggest=20 that there is little or no perceivable difference in sway with the M15=20 trailer compared to bias plies. There does, however, seem to be a consensus= =20 that the boat takes much less of a beating with the radials. My own=20 experience (about 3000 miles with bias plies, 4000 with radials) has been a=20 dramatically softer/kinder ride with no additional sway. 4) Concerns about additional heat buildup as result of the more flexible=20 sidewalls (the constant flexing of the sidewall is a major source of heat in= =20 any tire) seem largely unfounded in the case of the M15. My own experience=20 suggests that the radials actually run slightly cooler than any of three=20 brands of bias plies I had tried previously. This could be a function of th= e=20 lower rolling resistance of the radial tire. Also, at least in the case of=20 the M15, the load is well within the load rating of the 12" radial tires I=20 have seen. For wheel sizes where true trailer radials are available, it would seem=20 prudent to go with them. In the case of trailers with 12" rims, however, I=20 for one feel much safer knowing that my boat is riding on high quality=20 domestic radials (Goodyear Tiempos in my case) than the limited choice of=20 poor quality bias-ply trailer tire alternatives. If the wear on my tires is= =20 any indication, The boat will wear out long before the tires (which are rate= d=20 for something like 50,000 miles!). If you insist on staying with bias plies, you might want to look at those by= =20 'Dico' (domestic made, and with a 1-800 number stamped on the sidewall for=20 warranty claims). These seemed to be the least bad of the sets I tried. =20 Beware of some of the Taiwanese bias-plies out there (as most of the bias=20 plies seem to be). I had one set literally crumble in less than 1000 miles.= =20 In addition, they were so far out round as to be embarrassing at low speeds.= =20 The Taiwanese 'TowMaster' bias plies that were original equipment on my 1991= =20 Trail-Rite seemed to hold up somewhat better, though I ended up replacing=20 them because of cracked sidewalls. Whatever tire you chose, make sure to have the wheels balanced. It makes a=20 world of difference in ride quality and tire life. Keep the tires covered t= o=20 protect them from UV degradation. Check your valve stems! They wear out an= d=20 crack--especially with exposure to UV. Also, make sure the tire shop puts i= n=20 new stems when you get new tires. Nothing like ruining a brand new tire=20 because your old valve stem fails (I speak from experience here!). That's my $0.02 worth. Scott Grometer, M15 #478 "b=E9b=E9" ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: Grove777@aol.com Subject: Re: M_Boats: Trailer Tires (again) Date: 09 Dec 1999 09:18:39 EST if you were towing a larger boat...say 3500 lbs + trailer...would you still favor the radials??? ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: Grove777@aol.com Subject: Re: M_Boats: Trailer Tires (again) Date: 09 Dec 1999 09:19:38 EST if you were trailering a larger boat...say 3500 lbs + trailer...would you still favor radials??? ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: "Joe Kidd" Subject: Re: M_Boats: Trailer Tires (again) Date: 09 Dec 1999 09:06:42 -0800 Double ditto to what Scott wrote about radial tires. I totally concur with his positive opinion and appraisal of radials for the TrailRite M-15 trailer. I replaced almost new imported bias ply tires because they ran so hot I was afraid of sinking my boat on the freeway due to a blowout. Don't even consider anything but radials on the 12" rims. Joe Kidd M-15 #207 "Poco A Poco" ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: Conbert H Benneck Subject: Re: M_Boats: Trailer Tires (again) Date: 09 Dec 1999 11:07:57 -0500 Scott, Thanks for your $0.02 cents worth on tires. A great dissertation. After reading all the pros and cons about tires on the M-website I finally replaced the cracked sidewall tires I got when I bought my M15 with Goodyear passenger car radials with a guarantee. They were balanced too. I am very happy with the ride quality and the way things "run" . Towing the M15 at 65 to 75 MPH behind my VW-GTI, it is rock steady: no fish tailing; no swaying - you don't even know it's there unless you hit an expansion joint and the trailer then telegraphs to the car that it's still there. Connie ___________________________________________________________________ Why pay more to get Web access? Try Juno for FREE -- then it's just $9.95/month if you act NOW! Get your free software today: http://dl.www.juno.com/dynoget/tagj. ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: Conbert H Benneck Subject: Re: M_Boats: Trailer Tires (again) Date: 09 Dec 1999 11:10:01 -0500 Grove 777 For an answer to that question I think you need the accumulated wisdom of the Trailer Sailors. Connie ___________________________________________________________________ Why pay more to get Web access? Try Juno for FREE -- then it's just $9.95/month if you act NOW! Get your free software today: http://dl.www.juno.com/dynoget/tagj. ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: Wilsometer@aol.com Subject: Re: Re: M_Boats: Trailer Tires (again) Date: 09 Dec 1999 13:03:40 EST In a message dated 12/9/1999 6:19:14 AM, you wrote: <> I would favor radials--those specifically rated for trailer use such as the=20 Goodyear Marathons. I would have certainly gone this route were they=20 available for 12" rims. I assume that with a 3500lb. load, you are talking= =20 about a rim size greater than 12". I am not certain, but I think the=20 Marathons are available for 13" or larger rims. I know I have seen them on=20 at least14" rims. If I could not find true trailer radials, I would still=20 *consider* passenger car radials. My reasoning here is that, in spite of al= l=20 the aforementioned caveats about radial side wall flex, the bias ply trailer= =20 tires seem to be of such poor quality as to negate their potential benefits.= =20 Today's passenger car tires (good ones, anyway) are generally of such high=20 quality that I believe there is more of a margin of safety in using them ove= r=20 some of those ostensibly manufactured for trailer purposes. In the case of=20 the M15 Trailrite trailer, I consider the additional sidewall flex an asset=20 in softening the otherwise punishing ride. Indeed, most of the trailers I=20 see parked in yards have seemingly gone over to passenger car tires (bias or= =20 radial)--presumably for this same reasons. I would, however, like to state this disclaimer. Putting passenger car=20 radials on the M15 Trailrite trailer was an experiment that happened to turn= =20 out very well. I have heard (only second and third hand, however) of a few=20 problems with putting radials on other kinds/designs of trailers. The=20 complaints I have heard usually involve some kind of sway or increased=20 fishtailing. Trailer manufacturers and resellers seem to always take the=20 CYA. (Cover Your Ass) position of only recommending tires specifically=20 designed for trailers (though many will readily admit that most of these=20 tires are junk). It would be worth inquiring to see if others with your typ= e=20 of trailer (I am assuming this is not an M17 at 3500lbs??) have gone the=20 radial route (passenger or trailer rated). It should go without saying, but= =20 do not exceed the load rating for any tire, radial or otherwise, and run the= m=20 properly inflated for the load. That's my additional $0.02. Others will no doubt weigh-in here. Scott Grometer, M15 #478 "b=E9b=E9" ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: "Michael Smith" Subject: Re: M_Boats: Trailer Tires (again) Date: 09 Dec 1999 12:16:10 -0600 Several considerations about trailer tires: very few of us will wear them out since we don't put tens of thousands of miles on them; the sidewalls will eventually crack and go bad long before the tread does; the M15 is relatively light; any decent tire (bias/radial/whatever) is going to be entirely satisfactory. Conclusion: decide between the two entirely on price. Mike ----- Original Message ----- Sent: Thursday, December 09, 1999 10:07 AM > Scott, > Thanks for your $0.02 cents worth on tires. > > A great dissertation. > > After reading all the pros and cons about tires on the M-website I > finally replaced the cracked sidewall tires I got when I bought my M15 > with Goodyear passenger car radials with a guarantee. They were balanced > too. > > I am very happy with the ride quality and the way things "run" . Towing > the M15 at 65 to 75 MPH behind my VW-GTI, it is rock steady: no fish > tailing; no swaying - you don't even know it's there unless you hit an > expansion joint and the trailer then telegraphs to the car that it's > still there. > > Connie > > ___________________________________________________________________ > Why pay more to get Web access? > Try Juno for FREE -- then it's just $9.95/month if you act NOW! > Get your free software today: http://dl.www.juno.com/dynoget/tagj. > ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: Sandyal55@aol.com Subject: Re: M_Boats: Trailer Tires (again) Date: 09 Dec 1999 19:02:03 EST I tow a 4000lb boat using Michelin LT radials. I went to the truck radials because I have a single axle trailer and needed the load capacity (2200+lbs) . The best trailer tire in a 15" rim was only 1800lbs. I tow from Phx to Marina Del Rey and San Diego. I've had no problems for 8 years. Sandy ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: "greg" Subject: Re: M_Boats: M17 Trailer Questions Date: 09 Dec 1999 18:31:33 -0800 I got a set of truck tire radials on my trailer (M-17). They are kept at 60lbs. Have not had a probelm. Bought them at Costco. -----Original Message----- >Grove 777, > >Bias tires are what everyone used to use about 50 years ago. Then came >Michelin with their belted radial tires and the world has improved. > >The bias tires have tire cords that criss-cross under the tread in an "X" >pattern. > >Michelin's radial tires have the wires running under the tread around the >circumference of the tire. These wires are hoops that support the tire >shape and maintain it's geometry. > >Radial tires are the standard tires on all passenger cars today, and >probably on most trucks too. > >The M web site had a long discussion on trailer tires, and the gist of >the discussion was that car-type radial tires are better. > >Based on that discussion, I bought some Goodyear radial tires for my M15 >trailer, and they have performed as expected - great. Trailer rides well >and the radial tires provide a bit of added "give" to the springs. Have >now towed the M15 on the radials for about 1500 miles at 70 - 75 MPH. > >Connie > > > >___________________________________________________________________ >Why pay more to get Web access? >Try Juno for FREE -- then it's just $9.95/month if you act NOW! >Get your free software today: http://dl.www.juno.com/dynoget/tagj. > ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: "htmills@bright.net" Subject: M_Boats: hull color & names Date: 10 Dec 1999 11:15:21 PST With the exception of Fran's two-tone blue Shorebird, yellow Enid Anne, and the green 17, all the Montgomerys I've seen, or seen pictures of, have been white or cream colored, usually with a contrasting sheer stripe. Does anyone have any pictures of a Montgomery with a dark hull, preferably navy blue? I was also curious about some of the names I've seen.... Umiaq Bellerin (could this be a character from an opera?) BuscaBrisas Tod ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: Don Haas Subject: Re: M_Boats: Trailer Tires (again) Date: 09 Dec 1999 20:39:57 -0800 I have bias ply on my M-15 trailer. I think they are Shorelander or somesuch, made for trailers. I have had no problems with them although my trailering is usually limited to trips of 100 miles or so. I must confess that I rarely drive over 65mph though. When its time to replace them, I'll probably look at radials. Don Haas Michael Smith wrote: > Several considerations about trailer tires: very few of us will wear them > out since we don't put tens of thousands of miles on them; the sidewalls > will eventually crack and go bad long before the tread does; the M15 is > relatively light; any decent tire (bias/radial/whatever) is going to be > entirely satisfactory. Conclusion: decide between the two entirely on > price. > > Mike > > ----- Original Message ----- > From: Conbert H Benneck > To: > Sent: Thursday, December 09, 1999 10:07 AM > Subject: Re: M_Boats: Trailer Tires (again) > > > Scott, > > Thanks for your $0.02 cents worth on tires. > > > > A great dissertation. > > > > After reading all the pros and cons about tires on the M-website I > > finally replaced the cracked sidewall tires I got when I bought my M15 > > with Goodyear passenger car radials with a guarantee. They were balanced > > too. > > > > I am very happy with the ride quality and the way things "run" . Towing > > the M15 at 65 to 75 MPH behind my VW-GTI, it is rock steady: no fish > > tailing; no swaying - you don't even know it's there unless you hit an > > expansion joint and the trailer then telegraphs to the car that it's > > still there. > > > > Connie > > > > ___________________________________________________________________ > > Why pay more to get Web access? > > Try Juno for FREE -- then it's just $9.95/month if you act NOW! > > Get your free software today: http://dl.www.juno.com/dynoget/tagj. > > ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: Howard A Subject: M_Boats: Sails for M-Boats Date: 10 Dec 1999 06:00:16 -0600 Are the sails for the M-boats a stock item at most sailmakers, or do you have to provide them a set of specs and have them made? Are the specs for the various sails available, or is it likely that enough changes have been made to the rigging on the older boats that the original specs no longer would apply? I seem to recall Jerry mentioning the name of a sailmaker in CA. I think mine came from Sailrite. Any others recommended? Is there a good source for used sails? ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: "John Crews" Subject: M_Boats: M17 trailering Date: 10 Dec 1999 07:24:53 PST Greetings fellow M17 owners: A few years ago I bought a new Pacific trailer for my 1974 vintage M17 with shoal keel/centerboard. The clearance between the keel/centerboard and the trailer axle bothers me and I'm wondering what I should do about it. The keel is supported fore and aft on two main structural cross-members of the trailer. These members have a slight V-shape with the low point in the middle, where each has a rubber pad which seems intended for keel support. With the centerboard in the fully up position, it still extends approximately 1" to 2" below the keel at the aft end. This brings it into contact with the axle, which is a piece of steel box-tube. I have wrapped an old piece of firehose around the axle to avoid metal-to-metal contact. The axle is mounted on leaf-springs and moves up relative to the rest of the trailer when encountering large bumps. The centerboard can be pushed up flush with the bottom of the keel without interference, the internal rope just won't hoist it that high. Still, it doesn't seem proper to be driving down the road with the centerboard riding on the axle, does it? Regards, John Crews ______________________________________________________ Get Your Private, Free Email at http://www.hotmail.com ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: TEHowe@aol.com Subject: Re: M_Boats: Sails for M-Boats Date: 10 Dec 1999 11:20:42 EST Howard, the sails on your boat are the originals, with a Mylar 155 made by McKibben. The Main was retreated and minor stitching done by Sailcare, in PA. The dacron was infused with some chemical glop, the"Lamauney Process". Any sailmaker can provide you with sails, you may need to give him the sail dimensions.(I = 22 J = 6.58 P = 19 E = 7.92). I think I have mentioned to you 2 guys who work around here, Wolfe Sails in Topeka, and Brian Engleke in Ozawkie ("Sails and Sew Forth"). I have used a saailmaker in my parents home town, Rockland, ME, with great success, he might get a kick from getting an inquiry from the midwest inspired by my input.(Doug Pope at Pope Sailmakers, 15 Tillson Ave., Rockland, ME 04841, [207]596-72930) many members of this list have used Pineapple Sails, and spoken highly of them. I have no experience there, but I would bet someone posts contact information for them. I think Kern Hamilton made most of the original ones for Jerry, I have the label on my sails, which are on my boat at Clinton( still sailing, I'll take her out late this month probably). I'll e-mail you inividually an article on sail sizes that you may find interesting, it's a word document. Quin Snyder should do a great job for your guys. TH. ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: AZSKYBUM@aol.com Subject: Re: M_Boats: hull color & names Date: 10 Dec 1999 12:04:02 EST I saw a white M-15 going down the freeway in Atlanta on Monday. While the name did not reference anything of a deep cultural sense it made me laugh..."Pull My Finger" ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: sparsons@canby.com (Steve Parsons) Subject: Re: M_Boats: hull color & names Date: 10 Dec 1999 17:08:43 -0800 Tony Cox in Silverton, Oregon has a solid color M17. I believe that it is all blue. Steve M15-159 Sojornen >With the exception of Fran's two-tone blue Shorebird, yellow >Enid Anne, and the green 17, all the Montgomerys I've seen, >or seen pictures of, have been white or cream colored, usually >with a contrasting sheer stripe. Does anyone have any pictures >of a Montgomery with a dark hull, preferably navy blue? > >I was also curious about some of the names I've seen.... > Umiaq > Bellerin (could this be a character from an opera?) > BuscaBrisas > >Tod > > > > ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: Doug Kelch Subject: M_Boats: hull color & names Date: 10 Dec 1999 20:34:15 -0500 Todd, There is a Navy blue M15 in Alexandria VA. I think his name was Tom. He dropped of the M list about a year ago and I lost his email address. Would it be in the archives? He bought the boat in Pensacola F= la in March of 97 and had some activity on the list at that time. I saw the boat then and it had some chalking but was easily rubbe= d out. Doug "Seas the Day" ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: Michael & Lizabeth Towers Subject: Re: M_Boats: hull color & names Date: 10 Dec 1999 21:16:31 -0600 Tod, There are a number of red-hulled M17's here in Minnesota, including mine. Michael >With the exception of Fran's two-tone blue Shorebird, yellow >Enid Anne, and the green 17, all the Montgomerys I've seen, >or seen pictures of, have been white or cream colored, usually >with a contrasting sheer stripe. Does anyone have any pictures >of a Montgomery with a dark hull, preferably navy blue? > >I was also curious about some of the names I've seen.... > Umiaq > Bellerin (could this be a character from an opera?) > BuscaBrisas > >Tod ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: JBlumhorst@aol.com Subject: Re: M_Boats: hull color & names Date: 10 Dec 1999 22:22:39 EST In a message dated 12/9/99 8:10:24 PM Pacific Standard Time, htmills@bright.net writes: > With the exception of Fran's two-tone blue Shorebird, yellow > Enid Anne, and the green 17, all the Montgomerys I've seen, > or seen pictures of, have been white or cream colored, usually > with a contrasting sheer stripe. Does anyone have any pictures > of a Montgomery with a dark hull, preferably navy blue? > > I was also curious about some of the names I've seen.... > Umiaq > Bellerin (could this be a character from an opera?) > BuscaBrisas > > Tod > Tod, How about a pic of an M17 wit a dark green hull and white deck? Point your broswser to http://hometown.aol.com/jblumhorst/HomePage/index.htm There are three links to pictures from the SCA Cruiser Challenge. There were three M_Boats there. There are several pics of Greg Moore's green-hulled M17 "Full Monty" on the three linked websites. Fair winds, Judy B P19 Fleet Cap'n, Potter Yachters WWP-19 #266 Redwing SF Bay, CA ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: AirEvacLen@aol.com Subject: Re: M_Boats: Sails for M-Boats Date: 11 Dec 1999 10:36:06 EST In a message dated 12/10/1999 5:02:00 AM US Mountain Standard Time, haudsley@tranquility.net writes: << I seem to recall Jerry mentioning the name of a sailmaker in CA. I think mine came from Sailrite. Any others recommended? Is there a good source for used sails? >> Howard When I bought a new main for my 17, I purchased it through The Sail Warehouse. You can find their advertisement in Sail Mag. I was very pleased with the service and the quality of merchandise. Just give them a call and all of your measurements. They will put in as many reefs as you want, cunningham, window, etc. I'm thinking the cost was something in the range of $375. For what it's worth, I'm thinking of having them make a new main for my M-23 as well. Lenny ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: Sandyal55@aol.com Subject: Re: M_Boats: Sails for M-Boats Date: 11 Dec 1999 11:19:32 EST Try these sites for sailmakers. I had UK make a new main that I'm very happy with. Sandy UK Sailmakers Home Page North Net Pineapple Sails Sailmaker Super Sailmakers; Ft Lauderdale ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: "htmills@bright.net" Subject: M_Boats: green 17 Date: 11 Dec 1999 11:24:14 PST Thanks, Judy. I couldn't recall off the top of my head who owned the green 17 I had seen there. Tod ~~~~~~~ ~~~~~~_/)~~~~~~~ ~~~ ~~~~ ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: bownez@juno.com Subject: Re: M_Boats: hull color & names Date: 10 Dec 1999 23:38:42 -0600 Hi Todd and listers, At Lake Waconia, Mn, the 4 M17's hull colors are: Mine-faded yellow Rick's- bright yellow Brian's- red Mark's- very faded powder blue. I believe all of these hulls to be 70's vintage. Jim Kimmet with his faded yellow M17 turns up from time to time as well as a few M15 sailors. Think spring. Michael "Bones" Bowden M17 #92 ___________________________________________________________________ Why pay more to get Web access? Try Juno for FREE -- then it's just $9.95/month if you act NOW! Get your free software today: http://dl.www.juno.com/dynoget/tagj. ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: "htmills@bright.net" Subject: Re: M_Boats: hull color & names Date: 11 Dec 1999 11:39:54 PST It sounds like Lake Waconia is a Montgomery mini-mecca. I looked in my road atlas, Bones, but couldn't spot it. I'm guessing it isn't too far from the twin-cities? Tod ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: Jslubliner@aol.com Subject: Re: M_Boats: Sails for M-Boats Date: 11 Dec 1999 19:32:10 EST Add Ullman Sail loft in San Diego to your list - 2805 Canon Street San Diego, CA 92106 (619) 226-1133 They have recut one main, saved a mylar 150 for two extra seasons, talked me out of recutting a sail because they couldn't find anything wrong (gave me some advice as to how to trim it properly, patched a spinnaker and made a nice racing/working 130, which I credit with two extra trophy finishes in the last two Mexico races. Good people - Tom Niebergall has the M-17 specs on file and is very accomodating. John - "Coyote" M17 FD, Tucson ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: bownez@juno.com Subject: Re: M_Boats: Sails for M-Boats Date: 11 Dec 1999 19:22:03 -0600 Listers, In the midwest, I got lined up with Western Sailmakers out of Jordan, Minn by Hooper's yachts. I supplied my old main and they constructed a new one for me with two reef points. You have the choise of bolt-rope or slugs. What a difference a new main makes in sailing performance. Michael "Bones" Bowden M17 #92 ___________________________________________________________________ Why pay more to get Web access? Try Juno for FREE -- then it's just $9.95/month if you act NOW! Get your free software today: http://dl.www.juno.com/dynoget/tagj. ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: bownez@juno.com Subject: Re: M_Boats: hull color & names Date: 11 Dec 1999 19:14:51 -0600 Hi Todd, Waconia is south west of town about 30 miles on Hwy 5. 45 minutes from my home if there is no slow traffic. it's 3100 acres with one island to anchor by to get out of the breeze and go for a swim. The lake is mainly fishermen and sailors. Works for me. Michael "Bones" Bowden M17 #92 1976 faded yellow "Bonita" ___________________________________________________________________ Why pay more to get Web access? Try Juno for FREE -- then it's just $9.95/month if you act NOW! Get your free software today: http://dl.www.juno.com/dynoget/tagj. ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: "Bill Riker" Subject: RE: M_Boats: hull color & names Date: 11 Dec 1999 20:53:39 -0500 Doug and Tod, That would be Tom Nichols, hull number 337, Bill Riker M-15 #184 Storm Petrel -----Original Message----- [mailto:owner-montgomery_boats@lists.xmission.com]On Behalf Of Doug Kelch Sent: December 10, 1999 8:34 PM Todd, There is a Navy blue M15 in Alexandria VA. I think his name was Tom. He dropped of the M list about a year ago and I lost his email address. Would it be in the archives? He bought the boat in Pensacola Fla in March of 97 and had some activity on the list at that time. I saw the boat then and it had some chalking but was easily rubbed out. Doug "Seas the Day" ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: "Bill Riker" Subject: RE: M_Boats: Sails for M-Boats Date: 11 Dec 1999 22:40:14 -0500 Kern's Sails, Costa Mesa, has made sails for Jerry and other M-boaters for years. Kern Ferguson is mostly making sails for bigger boats now, but is happy to work with us. I was very pleased with my order. I bought his suggestion of full lenght battens and was able to get tanbark material - very tough stuff. He doesn't need measurements for our sails. Bill Riker M-15 #184 Storm Petrel ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: mikit Subject: Re: M_Boats: hull color & names Date: 11 Dec 1999 22:10:53 -0700 >Judy B I followed this link to your web page last night, what a great site. The site is educational, interesting and well thought out. I ended up spending almost an hour enjoying the photos and reading over the information you've provided. Yours is one of the more informative sites I have seen on the many aspects of pocket cruiser ownership. Although yours is a Potter group, you seem to welcome all, regardless of boat manufacture, who share the same interests. There is no doubt that you are passionate, enthusiastic, maybe driven about sailing and bringing older boats back to life. Looks like a fun group you have there. Mike M17 #369 >How about a pic of an M17 wit a dark green hull and white deck? > >Point your broswser to http://hometown.aol.com/jblumhorst/HomePage/index.htm > >There are three links to pictures from the SCA Cruiser Challenge. There were >three M_Boats there. There are several pics of Greg Moore's green-hulled M17 >"Full Monty" on the three linked websites. > >Fair winds, >Judy B >P19 Fleet Cap'n, Potter Yachters >WWP-19 #266 Redwing >SF Bay, CA ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: mikit Date: 11 Dec 1999 22:53:24 -0700 While rearranging bookshelves the other day I came across a group of Small Sailboat Journal Magazines from 1984. The November issue featured an article that reported sea trials for eight trailerable sailing cruisers, the M-17 being one of the eight. The M-17 did well in all categories but the article stopped short of choosing one over the rest as better because of the variety of types and uses the boats covered. One point on the M-17 narrative that I did not understand was in this sentence: "Her cockpit is large and deep, with good back support, good weather protection and stowage, but there is no bridge deck - surprising in a boat intended for ocean work." Can anyone tell me what is meant by " bridge deck", I can only guess. Mike( whose a pack rat) M-17 #369 ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: JBlumhorst@aol.com Subject: Re: M_Boats: hull color & names Date: 12 Dec 1999 02:47:45 EST Hi Mike, Thanks for the compliment on my website. Our club members own trailor sailors - a few Catalina's, several Mongomeries, a Santana or two, and, yes, mostly Potters. Anybody who loves to sail is always welcome to come sail with the Potter Yachters. We organize one or two events a month from February thru November, scattered all over Northern California. Sailing destinations usually are within a 150 mile radius of San Francisco, but we range as far as the Catalina Islands, Lake Tahoe, and Monterey Bay. There are one or two trips on the Sacramento River Delta and several trips on San Francisco Bay every season. Usually at least two or three trips include an option to camp on land, if you prefer that to sleeping on your boat. Most of our cruises are easy and safe enough for skippers who are just a little more advanced than beginners, and many events provide "side-trip" opportunities for heavy air sailing in the safety of a group with skippers who have made the trip before. It's a great way to expand your sailing horizons! We will post our sailing calendar for 2000 by early February on the PY Website at http://www.potter-yachters.org. You can take a look at the 1999 calendar for an idea of where we went this past year. If you like the events we organized in 1999 and would like to be a part of the fun in 2000, check back in Jan-Feb and mark your calendars. We'd love to have more skippers join the fun! Fair winds, Judy B P19 Fleet Captain, Potter Yachters Club of No. California. WWP-19 #266 Redwing In a message dated 12/11/99 10:06:34 PM Pacific Standard Time, mikit@internetcds.com writes: > I followed this link to your web page last night, what a great site. The > site is educational, interesting and well thought out. I ended up spending > almost an hour enjoying the photos and reading over the information you've > provided. Yours is one of the more informative sites I have seen on the > many aspects of pocket cruiser ownership. Although yours is a Potter group, > you seem to welcome all, regardless of boat manufacture, who share the same > interests. There is no doubt that you are passionate, enthusiastic, maybe > driven about sailing and bringing older boats back to life. > Looks like a fun group you have there. > Mike > M17 #369 > > > >How about a pic of an M17 wit a dark green hull and white deck? > > > >Point your broswser to http://hometown.aol.com/jblumhorst/HomePage/index. > htm > > > >There are three links to pictures from the SCA Cruiser Challenge. There > were > >three M_Boats there. There are several pics of Greg Moore's green-hulled > M17 > >"Full Monty" on the three linked websites. > > > >Fair winds, > >Judy B > >P19 Fleet Cap'n, Potter Yachters > >WWP-19 #266 Redwing > >SF Bay, CA > > ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: rland@win.bright.net Subject: M_Boats: Re: bridge deck Date: 12 Dec 1999 08:25:00 -0500 Mike, The bridge deck (on small-ish boats at least) is at the front of the cockpit, between it and the companionway opening, and runs athwartships, (effectively blocking off the lower third or so of the companionway opening). Often there is a raised section there (sometimes as hight as the cockpit benches) which can help keep green water out as well as provide room for other things underneath (engine, cooler, etc) that are accessible from the cabin. I'm not sure why keeping a hatchboard or two in place wouldn't work just as well as an "official" bridge deck in terms of keeping water out though. The M-15 has a small bridge deck, of sorts, which holds the centerboard pendant. I'm sure the real experts will chime in with more info :-) --- Rachel PS A friend sent me a copy of that article. Even though the 17 didn't come out on top, wasn't it #2? I remember being happy that I'd decided on one when I read the review. ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: LBarkhuff@cs.com Subject: Re: M_Boats: Sails for M-Boats Date: 12 Dec 1999 10:39:47 EST TE, Larry here....do you recommend the re vitalization process for the older sails that you had done on the ones you mentioned? The sails on the 23 I just got are the originals, and I am considering buying new ones...Any suggestions...Larry do you by chance have a copy of the old 23 owners list? Larry ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: Sandyal55@aol.com Subject: M_Boats: Re: Date: 12 Dec 1999 11:20:26 EST I read the reply about a bridge deck which is accurate. The response about why isn't a hatch board good enough is answered by the hatch boards might come out upon a violent motion like a knockdown. Even if they're tied down, they're not as secure, or watertight, as a fixed bridge deck. On a small boat, it provides a small seat at anchor and a cupboard in the galley below. Sandy ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: "Bill Riker" Subject: RE: M_Boats: Sails for M-Boats Date: 12 Dec 1999 11:09:24 -0500 Larry, I had Sail Care in Ford City, PA, restore a laser sail a few years ago and was very satisfied. I would use them again. I did't consider having them work on my old McKibben main because it was stretched out so badly. I checked with Sail Care about it, but they don't recut sails, so I ended up buying a new one. Bill Riker M-15 #184 Storm Petrel ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: Conbert H Benneck Subject: M_Boats: Re: Bridge deck Date: 12 Dec 1999 11:47:35 -0500 Mike, A bridge deck is a raised "wall" going up from the bottom of the cockpit sole and closing down the opening of the companionway. It's purpose is to keep water, that might splash into the cockpit from immediately finding it's way into the cabin. On my 29 footer, the bridge deck was as high as the seats in the cockpit: you had to climb over it to get into the cabin. It was about 1 foot wide, and in the center was a neat space for my compass; protected from foot traffic with a nice teak grid that lifted out of the way when you were sailing and had to steer a compass course. Further down it's face were the engine controls - ignition switch, choke knob, and temperature and ammeter gages. My M15 doesn't have a "bridge deck", but it has a wall at the forward end of the cockpit to keep unintended water out of the cabin: same idea. Connie M15 LEPPO Glastonbury, CT ___________________________________________________________________ Why pay more to get Web access? Try Juno for FREE -- then it's just $9.95/month if you act NOW! Get your free software today: http://dl.www.juno.com/dynoget/tagj. ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: "htmills@bright.net" Subject: M_Boats: Waconia Date: 12 Dec 1999 17:18:22 PST Bones, I found a little town of Waconia with a couple of unlabeled lakes near it, one just beside it and another larger one a little further north. Sounds like a very peaceful place to have a boat. Over the course of years the place on Lake Erie where I normally launch from in Sandusky Bay PWC's have become SO bothersome and noisy. Fortunately they mostly just stay in the Bay. That place is about 45 minutes from my house too, as long as I avoid the Saturday morning Cedar Point amusement park traffic jams. I spent a good bit of time this summer with my JY9 on an inland lake that I pass on my way to and from work. It is full of little islands and coves that are fun to poke around in. It would be nice if the water were clear rather than muddy (all the agriculture), but ah-well. Tod ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: TEHowe@aol.com Subject: Re: M_Boats: Sails for M-Boats Date: 12 Dec 1999 18:24:05 EST Larry, the process that Sail care performed on the sails worked really well in rejuvenating the Dacron. I did not get them to recut, but I am confident that the 2 things in tandem would make a world of difference in your sails. Sorry, no M 23 list either, Best regards, TH ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: AirEvacLen@aol.com Subject: M_Boats: Re:Making his List............ Date: 12 Dec 1999 19:34:53 EST In a message dated 12/12/1999 4:24:40 PM US Mountain Standard Time, TEHowe@aol.com writes: << Sorry, no M 23 list either, Best regards, TH >> Larry I think I may have an old list.............somewhere. Give me some time and I'll try and find it........... : ) Lenny ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: Grove777@aol.com Subject: Re: M_Boats: Re:Making his List............ Date: 12 Dec 1999 19:44:30 EST talking about lists lost all of my favorite sites cannot figure out how to get to the"news' sites that list allkinds of boats and boat stuff for sail used to acess this via e and b marine but west marine gobbled them up and thus cannot find that wonderful resource link list that allowed me access to the"news" sites sorry if this is confusing but not sure how to exlain/describe what i am looking for...think keith deihl helped me w/ this some time ago all help is appreciated and would be a great xmas gift k ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: "John Fell" Subject: Re: M_Boats: Waconia Date: 12 Dec 1999 20:05:29 -0800 Tod, I grew up in Toledo Ohio, and lived a couple years in Sandusky. I was there for the coldest january in history, and the snowiest in the century. Those were 1977 and 1978. I hope you have a mild winter. Sandusky bay is a favorite place of mine. Its really very pretty. John Fell M15 #126 -----Original Message----- >Bones, > >I found a little town of Waconia with a couple of unlabeled lakes >near it, one just beside it and another larger one a little further >north. >Sounds like a very peaceful place to have a boat. Over the course >of years the place on Lake Erie where I normally launch from in >Sandusky Bay PWC's have become SO bothersome and noisy. >Fortunately they mostly just stay in the Bay. That place is about >45 minutes from my house too, as long as I avoid the Saturday morning >Cedar Point amusement park traffic jams. >I spent a good bit of time this summer with my JY9 on an inland lake >that I pass on my way to and from work. It is full of little islands and >coves that are fun to poke around in. It would be nice if the water were >clear rather than muddy (all the agriculture), but ah-well. > >Tod > > > ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: "Gary M. Hyde" Subject: Re: M_Boats: hull color & names Date: 12 Dec 1999 20:02:45 -0800 What I like even better about that web page is that it has a link to a page about real hull speeds for semi-displacement hulls and gives data for M15 and M17's. The link is: http://hometown.aol.com/jblumhorst/hullspeed.html Maybe that page will indicate to you all that I'm an engineer too! --Gary M15 #235 "Vanilla" Pullman, WA gmhyde@wsu.edu ---------- >From: mikit >To: montgomery_boats@lists.xmission.com >Subject: Re: M_Boats: hull color & names >Date: Sat, Dec 11, 1999, 9:10 PM > > >>Judy B > I followed this link to your web page last night, what a great site. The > site is educational, interesting and well thought out. I ended up spending > almost an hour enjoying the photos and reading over the information you've > provided. Yours is one of the more informative sites I have seen on the > many aspects of pocket cruiser ownership. Although yours is a Potter group, > you seem to welcome all, regardless of boat manufacture, who share the same > interests. There is no doubt that you are passionate, enthusiastic, maybe > driven about sailing and bringing older boats back to life. > Looks like a fun group you have there. > Mike > M17 #369 > > >>How about a pic of an M17 wit a dark green hull and white deck? >> >>Point your broswser to http://hometown.aol.com/jblumhorst/HomePage/index.htm >> >>There are three links to pictures from the SCA Cruiser Challenge. There were >>three M_Boats there. There are several pics of Greg Moore's green-hulled M17 >>"Full Monty" on the three linked websites. >> >>Fair winds, >>Judy B >>P19 Fleet Cap'n, Potter Yachters >>WWP-19 #266 Redwing >>SF Bay, CA > > > > ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: "John Fell" Subject: M_Boats: Re: Date: 12 Dec 1999 20:18:16 -0800 Mike, is there anyway you could send me, or post to the list that article on the M17. I'm sure we would all be interested. John Fell M15 #126 -----Original Message----- >While rearranging bookshelves the other day I came across a group of Small >Sailboat Journal Magazines from 1984. The November issue featured an >article that reported sea trials for eight trailerable sailing cruisers, >the M-17 being one of the eight. The M-17 did well in all categories but >the article stopped short of choosing one over the rest as better because >of the variety of types and uses the boats covered. One point on the M-17 >narrative that I did not understand was in this sentence: "Her cockpit is >large and deep, with good back support, good weather protection and >stowage, but there is no bridge deck - surprising in a boat intended for >ocean work." > >Can anyone tell me what is meant by " bridge deck", I can only guess. > >Mike( whose a pack rat) >M-17 #369 > > > > ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: "htmills@bright.net" Subject: M_Boats: John & Mike Date: 12 Dec 1999 23:37:53 PST Mike, I echo John's sentiments about that small boat article...if there is any way to post it....Thanks! Small world, John! Did you ever eat at Tony Paco's while in Toledo? Neat place! (If you recall Klinger made mention of it on M.A.S.H.) They have the walls covered with weenie buns signed by famous visitors (just about anyone you can think of). Tod Mills, Ashland, OH ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: mikit Date: 13 Dec 1999 02:04:06 -0700 Rachel, Sandy and Connie I have a beautiful teak 1"X8"X6' board and a plan in my head to build a Compass Holding, Fender Storing, Water Keeper Outer, Cockpit Seat for my M17. Now, thanks to the group I know this is called a deck bridge instead of a chfswkocs. Thanks for the information. John and Tod I would be glad to send you a copy of the Small Boat Journal article. It might be best if I made copies and mailed them to you. I recently scanned the 6 page, 1983 M17 sales brochure that came with our boat paperwork. It was in poor condition so I cleaned it up in PhotoShop removing the folds, stains and ink scribbles. I scanned it at fairly high resolution in order to get a good laser printer copy and the file size ended up being aprox. 3mb per page. Much too large to send as an attachment. The Journal article is 9 pages, and even if scanned at a lower resolution, it would still take time to upload and download via e-mail. If you provide you're mailing addresses to my personnel e-mail, I will send you a copy of the article and include a copy of the M17 brochure if you like. Adobe Acrobat would be handy for something like this if I had the full version. Mike M-17 #369 ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: "Keith Diehl" Subject: Re: M_Boats: Re:Making his List............ Date: 13 Dec 1999 08:24:00 -0700 I think we need a better definition of the problem before we can help. ----- Original Message ----- Sent: Sunday, December 12, 1999 5:44 PM > talking about lists > lost all of my favorite sites > cannot figure out how to get to the"news' sites that list allkinds of boats > and boat stuff for sail > used to acess this via e and b marine > but west marine gobbled them up and thus cannot find that wonderful resource > link list that allowed me access to the"news" sites > sorry if this is confusing > but not sure how to exlain/describe what i am looking for...think keith deihl > helped me w/ this some time ago > all help is appreciated and would be a great xmas gift > k > > ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: "Morris, Giles" Subject: RE: M_Boats: hull color & names Date: 13 Dec 1999 10:27:37 -0600 >I was also curious about some of the names I've seen.... > Umiaq Because the Inuit languages (AFAIK) have no written form, the anglicization spellings of it are pretty much up for grabs. Kayak (or Qayaq, as was once common) is a hunter's boat. An Umiaq is a larger, and open, skin-on-frame boat that is used for carrying stuff around. When I found my M-15 I already had a garage full of kayaks (at least, that's how my wife put it) so the name for the bigger boat was almost inevitable. Two main reasons for the spelling: I think that it's more elegant and There's already a USS Umiak, and I wouldn't like to cause any confusion Giles Morris Arlington VA Montgomery 15 #264 "Umiaq" Vancouver 25 #002 "Dolphin" ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: LBarkhuff@cs.com Subject: Re: M_Boats: Re:Making his List............ Date: 13 Dec 1999 13:15:57 EST Please find it, and may the winds ever blow in your favor....Larry ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: "htmills@bright.net" Subject: M_Boats: Mike & Giles Date: 13 Dec 1999 18:21:57 PST Giles, That's an interesting story behind the name. I thought it looked eskimo-ish, but wasn't sure. My sister and her husband don't really refer to their boat by her name, but when they had to come up with a name to use with the VHF, they chose "Deuter". At the time, their first child was just becoming proficient at talking and she briefly had an imaginary friend whom she called "Deuter" (The spelling is kind of a guess....she wasn't writing yet.) If you enjoy kayaking, you might want to visit this site. This guy is a good writer and his site has stuff on sailing, kayaking, and other topics: http://www2.dmci.net/users/wesboyd/default.htm Mike, That certainly is a more pronounceable name, eh? I think one would have to have a little eastern european ancestry in their blood to be able to handle all those consonants! My sister's S2 has a narrow bridge deck of sorts and their traveler is mounted on it. It works as a nice place to sit on cool days facing forward with the cockpit hatch drawn under your chin. Their bridge deck however lacks all the sophisticated goodies that yours will have. Thanks for the offer to send me those copies... Tod Mills 1046 CR 1175 Ashland, OH 44805 ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: AirEvacLen@aol.com Subject: Re: M_Boats: Re:Making his List............ Date: 13 Dec 1999 18:54:26 EST In a message dated 12/13/1999 11:32:51 AM US Mountain Standard Time, LBarkhuff@cs.com writes: << Please find it, and may the winds ever blow in your favor....Larry >> hehehe......Larry......I'll do my best........ Lenny ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: bownez@juno.com Subject: M_Boats: M17 article Date: 13 Dec 1999 18:42:27 -0600 Hi Mike, Say, I would really like a copy of the test report and M17 lit as well. I will gladly re-imburse you for copy and mailing costs. My off list E-mail address is : bownez@sprynet.com If you can E-mail me there I can provide all my mailing information. Thanks for bringing this report to our attention, I'm anxious to read the article. Michael 'Bones" Bowden M17 #92 ___________________________________________________________________ Why pay more to get Web access? Try Juno for FREE -- then it's just $9.95/month if you act NOW! Get your free software today: http://dl.www.juno.com/dynoget/tagj. ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: AirEvacLen@aol.com Subject: Re: M_Boats: Re:Making his List............ Date: 13 Dec 1999 19:48:44 EST In a message dated 12/13/1999 11:32:51 AM US Mountain Standard Time, LBarkhuff@cs.com writes: << Please find it, and may the winds ever blow in your favor....Larry >> Ok Larry...........This is the best I can do..........matter of fact, I got this liist from you...........LOL.........it has a date of 10/31/98........so here goes. !. Gary Sumner and Beth Wilner 1658 E. 24th Ave Eugene, Or. 97403 541-484-2768 Hull # 1 2. Nick Honodel 1012 Cosimany Pl West River MD. 20778 110-867-1896 3. Leonard W. Smith 421 S. Lake Mirage Dr. Gilbert, AZ 85235 480-507-7757 Hull # 003 4. Harvey Zeilgman M.D. 6860 E. Roch Canyon Rd. Tucson, AZ 85750 5. Babe Logan This is an owner finished boat. Boat was moved to a resievioir in Ca and address is unknown. 6. Randy Palmer 420 Lake Rd. Altoona, WI. 54720 715-836-9077 This boat has been sold to a new owner........ 7. Tony Kozlik 2936 W. Morrow Dr. Phoenix, AZ 85027 602-581-2144 8. Richard Lane 2137 Washington St. # 12 Port Townsend, Wa 98368 360-385-6686 ( Also listed as : 560 Palo Alto Ave Mountainview Ca. 94941 415-967-0417 ) 9. Dave Davanzati The Ships Store 5043 E. Speedway Tucson, AZ 85712 ( Boat is reportedly for sale.........may be the black and white skunk boat ) 1-800-699-1290 10. Cliff Halverson HC 69 Box 149R Isle, Mn. 56342 11. Robert Mann 9700 Portland Ave # 334 Bloomington, Mn. 55420 ( MMP 230740179 formerly Big Bird, yellow boat, 612-885-0909 ) 12. Michael jRafferty Chula Vista, Ca 714-636-4018 ( Summer Solstice,,,,,,,,,this may be the boat sold to a new owner in Arizona ) 13. Bill Wehrs 2202 Bamabee Rd. LaCrosse Wis 54601 608-785-8103 608-787-5810 ( Red Hull " Paprika", reportedly for sale ) Additionally there were reports of 2 boats in Sausalito in a marina, owners unknown. The blue hull boat on Lake Pleasant MAY have been sold to a Colorado resident. There was the report of a boat in Puget sound with steering gear, and the phantom M23 in Florida which has been for sale a couple of times. Larry, this is all I have...........I'm sure there are some changes to be made. Keep in touch. Lenny ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: "htmills@bright.net" Subject: M_Boats: Newfoundland Ho! Date: 13 Dec 1999 19:56:41 PST Wow, folks! Someone posted this web site on the CWBB (Remind me to thank= them!) It is a photo album with brief narrative (or long captions) of a flotilla= that went from Toronto to Newfoundland in '97 to celebrate the 500th aniversary of John = Cabot's trip to Nfld. in the "Matthew". The author enjoyed the trip so much he = left the boat there and returned in subsequent summers to cruise around Nlfd and = Labrador. Navigation at the site starts out real smooth but after the first batch = it seems you have to return to the page with the map and click on each subsequent town (too= k me a minute to realize that.) Tod ~~~~~~~ ~~~~~~_/)~~~~~~~ ~~~ ~~~~ ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: Harvey Wilson Subject: M_Boats: Waconia Date: 13 Dec 1999 23:02:46 -0500 Hi Tod... How close do you live to Port Clinton, Oh ??? I visit there for a week o= r two every August...unfortunately, without my M-17. Harvey/ Ga M-17 Stargazer #294 ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: "htmills@bright.net" Subject: M_Boats: Port Clinton Date: 13 Dec 1999 23:29:28 PST Hi, Harvey I'm 1 1/2 hrs max from Port Clinton. Tod ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: "Morris, Giles" Subject: RE: M_Boats: Re:Making his List............ Date: 14 Dec 1999 09:47:22 -0600 > I got this liist from you >2. Nick Honodel > 1012 Cosimany Pl > West River MD. 20778 > 110-867-1896 Based on the address, I suspect that the area code for that phone number is really 410 Giles Morris Arlington VA Montgomery 15 #264 "Umiaq" Vancouver 25 #002 "Dolphin" ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: Wilsometer@aol.com Subject: Re: M_Boats: Newfoundland Ho! Date: 14 Dec 1999 10:58:51 EST In a message dated 12/13/1999 4:55:11 PM, you wrote: <> Tod, What is the URL? By the way, don't forger to thank them. Scott ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: "John Fell" Subject: Re: M_Boats: John & Mike Date: 14 Dec 1999 11:06:30 -0800 Tony Paco's, yes I have many times. I've heard that Jamie had paco's fly a large order out to the set where they were filming in california. They are Hungarian sausages, very spicy and delicious. For a while I could get them out here in California in the local grocery store. Buy the way, another great hot dog place in Toledo is Rudy's. If you have never had them, go try, You'll love them to. John Fell M15, #126 -----Original Message----- >Mike, I echo John's sentiments about that small boat >article...if there is any way to post it....Thanks! > >Small world, John! Did you ever eat at Tony Paco's while >in Toledo? Neat place! (If you recall Klinger made mention >of it on M.A.S.H.) They have the walls covered with weenie >buns signed by famous visitors (just about anyone you can >think of). > >Tod Mills, >Ashland, OH > > > ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: "John Fell" Subject: M_Boats: Re: Date: 14 Dec 1999 11:22:56 -0800 Mike, Thank you for doing this. My address is John Fell 23211 Asti Way Laguna Niguel Ca. 92677 I would love to repay your kindness in some way. Please let me know the cost you incur, so I may reimburse you. Thanks again. John -----Original Message----- >Rachel, Sandy and Connie >I have a beautiful teak 1"X8"X6' board and a plan in my head to build a >Compass Holding, Fender Storing, Water Keeper Outer, Cockpit Seat for my >M17. Now, thanks to the group I know this is called a deck bridge instead >of a chfswkocs. Thanks for the information. > >John and Tod >I would be glad to send you a copy of the Small Boat Journal article. It >might be best if I made copies and mailed them to you. I recently scanned >the 6 page, 1983 M17 sales brochure that came with our boat paperwork. It >was in poor condition so I cleaned it up in PhotoShop removing the folds, >stains and ink scribbles. I scanned it at fairly high resolution in order >to get a good laser printer copy and the file size ended up being aprox. >3mb per page. Much too large to send as an attachment. The Journal article >is 9 pages, and even if scanned at a lower resolution, it would still take >time to upload and download via e-mail. If you provide you're mailing >addresses to my personnel e-mail, I will send you a copy of the article and >include a copy of the M17 brochure if you like. Adobe Acrobat would be >handy for something like this if I had the full version. > >Mike >M-17 #369 > > > > ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: "Jeffrey J. Barteet" Subject: M_Boats: Howdy! Date: 14 Dec 1999 12:23:14 -0800 Hi, Folks, I'm in Santa Barbara, CA, and I have a Montgomery I'm trying to find a good home for. It's a Montgomery 12, that has been rarely, RARELY used. The main and jib are still crisp, the teak is in good shape and I have all the bits and pieces. It needs nothing to sail other than a good cleaning. I fitted it with tastfull bronze oarlocks and a set of 8' oars as well. It rows great! I'm an avid sailer, but I usually race on a multitude of larger race boats, and as a result, this one never gets down to the water. I used it more when I lived on the Gulf Coast. (Yes, I moved it across the country and then didn't use it) But the last couple of years, it's just sat in the side yard. I have a 'trailer' but it's in deplorable shape and I don't have a title for it. For purposes of this sale, it's worthless. The bearings on it are shot, so I wouldn't reccommend using it to move the boat very far, but it could be made to work in a few hours. Anyway, I'd like to sell it for $500. Please excuse my 'for sale' post to your list. It's a fine little boat, and its quality is lost on most people. I just was hoping to find someone who'd appreciate it. Thanks, -jeffrey barteet ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: "htmills@bright.net" Subject: Re: M_Boats: Newfoundland Ho! Date: 14 Dec 1999 21:49:35 PST Oops!....I guess in my haste to return I skipped the URL. Sorry http://www.wright-photo.com/newfound.htm Geez, they even encountered ice bergs! Sailing after dark not recomended= . The photography is really spectacular...I guess these folks aren't profes= sional photographers, but it isn't because they aren't talented enough, that's = for sure. One part that's pretty neat is the part where he met some....well, I bett= er not spoil it for you. For a quick taste of what it's like, visit: http://www.wright-photo.com/= francois1.htm And for a cool [sic] pic of an iceberg: http://www.wright-photo.com/bonav= ist%203.htm And some rugged scenery (an excellent pic here): http://www.wright-photo= .com/mugford%201.htm Tod ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: Harvey Wilson Subject: M_Boats: Port Clinton Date: 14 Dec 1999 23:07:13 -0500 >>>I'm 1 1/2 hrs max from Port Clinton.<< Then perhaps we can get together for lunch or whatever on the weekend tha= t I'm there in early Aug. ?? Harvey/ Ga M-17 Stargazer #294 ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: jerry montgomery Subject: Re: M_Boats: Howdy! Date: 14 Dec 1999 22:17:25 +0000 Hi Jeffrey I might be interesed in the 12; what's the sail # and the number on the transom? Jerry ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: LBarkhuff@cs.com Subject: Re: M_Boats: Howdy! Date: 15 Dec 1999 11:49:56 EST No fair Jerry.....we all know you have a secret code for the transom numbers.......Now if we can just break the code.....Larry ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: "Jeffrey J. Barteet" Subject: Re: M_Boats: Howdy! Date: 15 Dec 1999 08:51:59 -0800 Hi, Jerry, are the the Montgomery in Montgomery boats? Wow! I'm at work right now, but I want to say the hull \ sail number is 73 or 83. -jeffrey At 10:17 PM 12/14/99 +0000, you wrote: >Hi Jeffrey > >I might be interesed in the 12; what's the sail # and the number on the >transom? > >Jerry > > ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: "Joe Kidd" Subject: Re: M_Boats: Howdy! Date: 15 Dec 1999 13:55:27 -0800 >are the the Montgomery in Montgomery boats? Jeffrey, You left off one "e" in thee. You must show proper respect for royalty and/or diety. Joe Kidd M-15 #207 "Poco A Poco> ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: LBarkhuff@cs.com Subject: Re: M_Boats: Howdy! Date: 15 Dec 1999 17:38:34 EST Yes Jeff, that is the mighty one, but he looks just like the rest of us when he is covered in resin and sawdust....Larry ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: "htmills@bright.net" Subject: Re: M_Boats: Port Clinton Date: 15 Dec 1999 17:46:47 PST Sounds good, Harvey. When the time is nearer we can figure out something... Tod ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: Robert Eeg Subject: Re: M_Boats: Howdy! Date: 15 Dec 1999 15:08:31 +0000 Don't tell Jerry what a great and wonderful boat builder he is. It will go to his head and he can barely get into his car now. :-) Bob Nor'Sea LBarkhuff@cs.com wrote: > Yes Jeff, that is the mighty one, but he looks just like the rest > of us when he is covered in resin and sawdust....Larry ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: LBarkhuff@cs.com Subject: Re: M_Boats: Howdy! Date: 15 Dec 1999 18:26:38 EST Jerry doesn't build boats anymore.....he lives on his laurels.....sort of like Laurel and Hardy....Larry ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: AirEvacLen@aol.com Subject: Re: M_Boats: List Date: 15 Dec 1999 19:14:38 EST Hey Larry.... Did you get the list? Lenny ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: LBarkhuff@cs.com Subject: Re: M_Boats: List Date: 15 Dec 1999 21:11:15 EST Hey Lenny, Sorry I was out of town. Yes, I did get the list and want to thank you very much. I will make the necessary changes and get you an updated one. So glad you still had it. Larry ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: sparsons@canby.com (Steve Parsons) Subject: Re: M_Boats: Howdy! Date: 15 Dec 1999 19:58:23 -0800 Jeffery, I think you should feel free to inflate Jerry's ego.... Then the price for the boat:-) Steve >Don't tell Jerry what a great and wonderful >boat builder he is. >It will go to his head and he can barely get into his >car now. :-) >Bob Nor'Sea > >LBarkhuff@cs.com wrote: > >> Yes Jeff, that is the mighty one, but he looks just like the rest >> of us when he is covered in resin and sawdust....Larry > > > > ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: Francene Lebowitz Subject: M_Boats: storm jib Date: 16 Dec 1999 22:45:39 +0100 Any M15 owners have a storm jib they don't use and which they'd like to sell? Fran M15 #236 ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: mikit Date: 15 Dec 1999 23:21:44 -0700 On a recommendation from Mike Bowden I checked out the Good Old Boat web page. I thought some in the group may be interested in their links page. It is an excellent resourse for parts and supplys used in the care and feeding of our older boats. For those that have the desire and talent to make their own wings to fly by, the Sailrite link offers sail kits for all the Montgomery boats. Dig deep enough and you can find the dimensions for the various Mongomery sails, even spinnakers in their web page. http://www.goodoldboat.com/suppliers.html Mike M-17 #369 ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: "Keith Diehl" Subject: M_Boats: End of the Millennium Date: 16 Dec 1999 15:15:51 -0700 Well perhaps too grand a subject line, but as 1999 comes to an end, I did want to reflect on how this mailing list has grown in only a very few years to 136 members. I also want to thank each of you for your thoughtful contributions and support to the list. Season's greetings to everyone and may 2000 see us all sailing! Keith Diehl - Salt Lake City, UT http://www.xmission.com/~kdiehl ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: Tom Smith Subject: RE: M_Boats: End of the Millennium Date: 16 Dec 1999 14:33:48 -0800 Thank you Keith. The list works because of you. Tom Smith LineSoft (509) 928-1707 X148 (509) 928-2581 Fax email: tsmith@linesoft.com website: www.linesoft.com -----Original Message----- From: Keith Diehl [mailto:kdiehl@xmission.com] Sent: Thursday, December 16, 1999 2:16 PM To: Montgomery Boats List Subject: M_Boats: End of the Millennium Well perhaps too grand a subject line, but as 1999 comes to an end, I did want to reflect on how this mailing list has grown in only a very few years to 136 members. I also want to thank each of you for your thoughtful contributions and support to the list. Season's greetings to everyone and may 2000 see us all sailing! Keith Diehl - Salt Lake City, UT http://www.xmission.com/~kdiehl ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: LBarkhuff@cs.com Subject: Re: M_Boats: storm jib Date: 16 Dec 1999 17:50:23 EST Just out of curiosity, what is the approximate size of a 15 regular jib? Larry ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: LBarkhuff@cs.com Subject: Re: M_Boats: End of the Millennium Date: 16 Dec 1999 17:57:54 EST Thanks Keith, and I will always be glad I found this list. I suppose I am the only guy ever to own 2 M23's....calls for a very loving wife...Larry ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: AirEvacLen@aol.com Subject: Re: M_Boats: List Date: 16 Dec 1999 19:08:32 EST In a message dated 12/15/99 7:11:57 PM US Mountain Standard Time, LBarkhuff@cs.com writes: << I will make the necessary changes and get you an updated one >> Larry Many thanks to you as well............Seasons Greetings. Lenny ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: Francene Lebowitz Subject: Re: M_Boats: End of the Millennium Date: 17 Dec 1999 16:23:47 +0100 Thank YOU, Keith, for making the list possible in the first place. We love this forum! Wishing you a warm holiday and a smooth sail into 2000. Fran M15 #236 'Shorebird' ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: "htmills@bright.net" Subject: Re: M_Boats: End of the Millennium Date: 16 Dec 1999 19:23:38 PST Double Dittoes, Keith I first learned of the Montgomery through your page. Season's Greetings to everyone, and a happy and prosperous New Year, too! Tod ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: "htmills@bright.net" Subject: M_Boats: pipe dreams: jibs & the lottery Date: 16 Dec 1999 20:22:39 PST I just visited that sailrite web page that Mike mentioned (thanks!). You know, with the little option boxes they have it would be real easy to fool around and blow your retirement savings (or lottery winnings, for those that play it) on different sails. I especially liked the one where you "design" your own sail, specifying the different dimensions and proportions. Wouldn't it be great to test a whole bunch of diffent sail combinations? The jib is the obvious spot to start, with maybe thre= e different clew heights for each amount of overlap. Then too, there are the different materials with which to construct them as well as the diffe= rent weights......Hmmmm.....let's see, 4 sizes of overlapment times 3 clew hei= ghts times maybe 2 different materials times maybe 2 different weights =3D 48 = jibs =3D the folks at sailrite get a fat profit-sharing check. Whew, my sewin= g hand is getting a cramp already! I see that their dim's for the 15 are "rough" and were obtained by scalin= g something. They list the "standard" 15 jib as a 115% with 34 sqft. Meanwhile, they say their dim's for the 17 were taken from the designer's sailplan. They are calling the "standard" 17 jib a 108% with 73 sqft. Penny-savin' Tod P.S. I found one in the parking lot at work today! You can bet your bot= tom dollar I picked it up, too. ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: bownez@juno.com Subject: Re: M_Boats: Howdy! Date: 16 Dec 1999 21:30:55 -0600 Joe, That's a good one, made me smile. Jerry, PROSIT! Bones M17 #92 ___________________________________________________________________ Why pay more to get Web access? Try Juno for FREE -- then it's just $9.95/month if you act NOW! Get your free software today: http://dl.www.juno.com/dynoget/tagj. ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: rland@win.bright.net Subject: M_Boats: Pacific Northwest sailing? Date: 16 Dec 1999 22:25:36 -0500 Dear M-boaters, I'm going to be visiting a friend in Olympia, Washington, over the holidays. Due to his pesky job :-), I'll be on my own December 27, 28, 29, and 30. This'll be my first trip to the Pacific Northwest, and I'm really looking forward to seeing it after hearing so many good things from M-boaters and others. Do people still sail there at this time of year? (Hard to imagine with the temperature dipping below zero right now in the Lake Superior region, but you never know.) If so, would anyone like/need to have a crew member (me) on any of the days I mentioned? Keith: Thanks so much for keeping this list going! And a happy holiday season and New Year to everyone :-) --- Rachel ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: woodscribbles@webtv.net (Dana & Tom Woodworth) Date: 17 Dec 1999 05:43:18 -0700 (MST) Keith, I am sure all of us appreciate the work you have put into this site. It got me into the sailing frame of mind, and after reading the inputs to the site, finally bought an M-17 in September. We have had a real blast with this boat, and the communication skills we have developed while sailing have actually reduced the level of friction here at home while finishing construction.(That is another story. Never again) Have a good holiday season. Tom & Dana M-17 #330 "Wild Hare" PS: I still can't figure out the Tuvan throat singing technique, but will have another brew and keep trying! ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: bownez@juno.com Subject: Re: M_Boats: End of the Millennium Date: 16 Dec 1999 22:24:17 -0600 Keith, Merry Christmas and thanks for the precious time spent working on the list duties. Bones ___________________________________________________________________ Why pay more to get Web access? Try Juno for FREE -- then it's just $9.95/month if you act NOW! Get your free software today: http://dl.www.juno.com/dynoget/tagj. ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: Peter Jacobs Subject: Re: M_Boats: End of the Millennium Date: 17 Dec 1999 21:50:34 -0800 Merry Christmas, Keith, and to all the rest of the list, too! ... and God Bless the ARCHIVES !!!!!! Thanks Keith !! -Peter- ================== Peter Jacobs M17 #416 =========== Peter Jacobs, Victoria BC Canada http://www.islandnet.com/~pjacobs/homepage.htm ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: Francene Lebowitz Subject: Re: M_Boats: Pacific Northwest sailing? Date: 18 Dec 1999 13:33:35 +0100 rland@win.bright.net wrote: > Do people still sail there at this time of year? (Hard to imagine with the temperature dipping below zero right now in the Lake Superior > region, but you never know.) If so, would anyone like/need to have a > crew member (me) on any of the days I mentioned? > Hi Rachel, Too bad you're not going to be in the Pacific Southwest; You'd be most welcome on our boat. Our temps for the last few days have gotten up into the low 80's. Not normal for this time of year and it probably won't last, but it won't be getting lower than the 60's during the day in this area in December. Hope this doesn't make you too jealous- we do have to put up with nasty freeway traffic daily and of course the earthquakes, skin cancer, illegal immigrants... Fran M15 #236 ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: rland@win.bright.net Subject: Re: M_Boats: Pacific Northwest sailing? Date: 17 Dec 1999 20:36:40 -0500 Gee Fran, you do know how to make a gal envious :-) It's 7 degrees here now, and most of our water is hard as a rock. Thanks so much for the invite though - maybe I'll be able to see you and Shore Bird in person one of these days --- Rachel ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: TOMMYVAL@aol.com Subject: Re: M_Boats: hull color & names Date: 18 Dec 1999 13:55:30 EST Hi Tod Bellerin sure is named after a character, but not one from the opera. One of my buddies from Oshkosh, Wi and a fellow I worked with for a while is the character in question. When we were younger we would go out and party on the weekends and sometimes we would get out of control and these were the times we probably had the most fun. The next morning he would comment that we were really "Bellerin" aka hell raising. I have had many bellerin evenings in my youth (cant handle it any longer) Anyway my buddy died in Dec 1995 and its just a fond way of remembering him. Happy Holidays to All Gary ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: Harvey Wilson Subject: M_Boats: End of the Millennium Date: 18 Dec 1999 20:23:41 -0500 Hi Keith... Seasons Greetings to you, and many thanks to you for hosting this mailing= list!! Best regards, Harvey/ Ga M-17 Stargazer #294 ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: Conbert H Benneck Subject: Re: M_Boats: storm jib Date: 19 Dec 1999 16:25:09 -0500 Larry the M15 jib is about three handkerchiefs and a pair of bloomers in area. Connie ___________________________________________________________________ Why pay more to get Web access? Try Juno for FREE -- then it's just $9.95/month if you act NOW! Get your free software today: http://dl.www.juno.com/dynoget/tagj. ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: LBarkhuff@cs.com Subject: Re: M_Boats: storm jib Date: 19 Dec 1999 17:48:10 EST very funny connie......Whose bloomers are they??? Larry ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: "Joe Kidd" Subject: Re: M_Boats: storm jib Date: 19 Dec 1999 14:53:55 -0800 Larry, Check the archives. Somewhere Jerry wrote that the M-15 standard jib is 133%... meaning the size of the jib is 133% of the triangular area between the forestay and mast. After the holidays I'll get out Poco's storm jib and send you the measurements. Joe Kidd M-15 #207 "Poco A. Poco" ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: LBarkhuff@cs.com Subject: Re: M_Boats: storm jib Date: 19 Dec 1999 19:38:58 EST Thanks Joe, I measured the 23 Storm Jib this afternoon, and it is 18x15x7 I was trying to figure out how to make a jib that was smaller than the regular size, and bigger than a storm jib, sort of like a stay sail on a cutter. Those measurements are about 70% of the regular size jib. This is what happens when I have too much time on my hands....Larry ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: AirEvacLen@aol.com Subject: M_Boats: Re: Time on your hands Date: 19 Dec 1999 19:58:41 EST In a message dated 12/19/1999 5:39:30 PM US Mountain Standard Time, LBarkhuff@cs.com writes: << This is what happens when I have too much time on my hands....Larry >> Larry, Larry, Larry..............So when are we going some photos of the boat? Lenny ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: AirEvacLen@aol.com Subject: Re: M_Boats: Re: Time on your hands Date: 19 Dec 1999 20:00:16 EST In a message dated 12/19/1999 5:59:06 PM US Mountain Standard Time, AirEvacLen@aol.com writes: << Larry, Larry, Larry..............So when are we going to see some photos of the boat? >> ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: LBarkhuff@cs.com Subject: Re: M_Boats: Re: Time on your hands Date: 19 Dec 1999 20:10:24 EST Lenny, I don''t have a digital camera, and I don't know how to scan in regular photos..Larry ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: "htmills@bright.net" Subject: Re: M_Boats: Re: Time on your hands Date: 19 Dec 1999 20:15:15 PST Larry, Some stores in my neck of the woods offer that service. I would think that someone would there too. Tod ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: LBarkhuff@cs.com Subject: M_Boats: sail spots Date: 19 Dec 1999 20:13:15 EST Lenny, have you ever visited the Sea of Cortes web site? somehow I got there through the web site for This old Boat...really an interesting article about the cruising area around Guymas and San Carlos where the M boats used to rule the races...Larry ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: AirEvacLen@aol.com Subject: M_Boats: Re: Photos Date: 19 Dec 1999 20:49:23 EST In a message dated 12/19/1999 6:10:59 PM US Mountain Standard Time, LBarkhuff@cs.com writes: << Lenny, I don''t have a digital camera, and I don't know how to scan in regular photos..Larry >> Heck Larry..........Just do what the rest of us po' sailors do..........whip out the Kodak and put them in the mail...........actually, Walgreens and other locations will put your pics on disk for you.........I had it done once. And if you send them to my e-mail address,,,,,,,,,,,,,you can just attach them as a file. Lenny LEnny ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: AirEvacLen@aol.com Subject: Re: M_Boats: sail spots Date: 19 Dec 1999 20:50:12 EST In a message dated 12/19/1999 6:13:42 PM US Mountain Standard Time, LBarkhuff@cs.com writes: << Lenny, have you ever visited the Sea of Cortes web site? >> Larry I'll check it out..........thanks. Lenny ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: sparsons@canby.com (Steve Parsons) Subject: Re: M_Boats: storm jib Date: 19 Dec 1999 21:24:54 -0800 Connie, What size bloomers? skp >Larry >the M15 jib is about three handkerchiefs and a pair of bloomers in area. > >Connie > >___________________________________________________________________ >Why pay more to get Web access? >Try Juno for FREE -- then it's just $9.95/month if you act NOW! >Get your free software today: http://dl.www.juno.com/dynoget/tagj. > > > ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: "Joe Kidd" Subject: Re: M_Boats: storm jib Date: 19 Dec 1999 22:00:01 -0800 >M15 jib is about three handkerchiefs and a pair of bloomers in area. >Connie, >What size bloomers? In today's fashion world, they could be the size of a storm jib or a spinnaker. Joe Kidd ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: mikit Subject: Re: M_Boats: Pacific Northwest sailing? Date: 19 Dec 1999 23:47:23 -0700 >Rachel, I haven't been to the Seattle / Puget Sound area in the winter but I can assure you it not as cold as you neck of the woods, just wetter. I would imagine the dedicated could go sailing in reasonable weather throughout the year up there. Here in Oregon, a few hundred miles south, the sailing lakes below snowline in our area are reservoirs. For flood control purposes, they are drained down to a puddle at the end of October, refilling in the spring. This is unfortunate because the nice weekend we just had was a sailing opportunity lost. Two hours to the west is the Pacific at Coos Bay. The Oregon coast has a reputation, on occasion, of being the mother of all lee shores in the winter. Just ask the skipper and salvors involved with the New Carissa. If interested, you can find a step by step account on how not to salvage a shipwreck. http://olivelive.webnet.advance.net/news/99/12/st121201.html Fear of the Pacific in winter, lack of water in the lakes and reluctance to drive the 8 hr. to Judy B's SF area, gives me the opportunity to get the things done in winter that I didn't last summer because of sailing trips. If you find you have all that extra time and good weather I would suggest the following adventure. Drive north to Anacortes Wash. and catch the 8 am ferry to Sidney BC. This route will take you through the beautiful San Juan Islands giving you a glimpse of this popular cruising area. From Sidney, on Vancouver Island, drive south to Victoria BC in time for lunch. This is a special place to explore and well worth a visit. You can catch a ferry at the waterfront in Victoria at 4pm that will take you to Port Angeles on Washington's Olympic peninsula. From there it's a nice drive back to Olympia. Its been many years since I have done this so, if interested you may want to check out schedules on the Washington State Ferry page. http://www.wsdot.wa.gov/ferries/ For the group. Is the "I" measurement taken from the base of the mast to the masthead or from a point level from the forestay, below the mast at deck level, to the masthead? I would suspect the latter. Mike M-17 #369 Dear M-boaters, > > I'm going to be visiting a friend in Olympia, Washington, over the >holidays. Due to his pesky job :-), I'll be on my own December 27, 28, >29, and 30. This'll be my first trip to the Pacific Northwest, and I'm >really looking forward to seeing it after hearing so many good things >from M-boaters and others. > > Do people still sail there at this time of year? (Hard to imagine with >the temperature dipping below zero right now in the Lake Superior >region, but you never know.) If so, would anyone like/need to have a >crew member (me) on any of the days I mentioned? > > Keith: Thanks so much for keeping this list going! > > And a happy holiday season and New Year to everyone :-) --- Rachel ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: LBarkhuff@cs.com Subject: Re: M_Boats: Re: Photos Date: 20 Dec 1999 12:03:59 EST Ok I will try the Walgreens idea, but you may have to help get a file fixed...larry ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: AirEvacLen@aol.com Subject: Re: M_Boats: Re: Photos Date: 20 Dec 1999 12:07:32 EST In a message dated 12/20/1999 10:04:47 AM US Mountain Standard Time, LBarkhuff@cs.com writes: << Ok I will try the Walgreens idea, but you may have to help get a file fixed...larry >> Oh Larry...........hehehehee Lenny ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: LBarkhuff@cs.com Subject: M_Boats: Cruise Cortes Date: 20 Dec 1999 12:13:31 EST Good Lenny, the address is www.cruisecortes.com. I find it a very good website...You can also get there from thisoldboat website...under trailer sailor part..Larry ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: AirEvacLen@aol.com Subject: Re: M_Boats: Cruise Cortes Date: 20 Dec 1999 12:23:22 EST In a message dated 12/20/1999 10:14:08 AM US Mountain Standard Time, LBarkhuff@cs.com writes: << Good Lenny, the address is www.cruisecortes.com. >> Larry Hehehehe.............I found that if you put a " z " in place of the "s".........it works every time...........It is grand. Lenny ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: LBarkhuff@cs.com Subject: Re: M_Boats: Cruise Cortes Date: 20 Dec 1999 12:30:55 EST Gee, I was on the site, figured that out for myself, and was coming here to tell you...no, I won't tell you LB ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: "Gary M. Hyde" Subject: Re: M_Boats: Cruise Cortes Date: 20 Dec 1999 13:22:13 -0800 The address is really: http://www.cruisecortez.com/ --Gary M15 #235 "Vanilla" N24 #133 "Sailebration" Pullman, WA gmhyde@wsu.edu ---------- >From: LBarkhuff@cs.com >To: montgomery_boats@lists.xmission.com >Subject: M_Boats: Cruise Cortes >Date: Mon, Dec 20, 1999, 9:13 AM > > Good Lenny, the address is www.cruisecortes.com. I find it a very > good website...You can also get there from thisoldboat website...under > trailer sailor part..Larry > ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: "Gary M. Hyde" Subject: Re: M_Boats: End of the Millennium Date: 20 Dec 1999 13:38:06 -0800 May I add my thanks for this fine email group and wish you all fun holidays and a happy new year. By the way, I bought the Pardey's "The Cost Conscious Cruiser" and half way thru it. It is VERY interesting. I'll probably have to read some of their other books! --Gary M15 #235 "Vanilla" N24 #133 "Sailebration" Pullman, WA gmhyde@wsu.edu ---------- >From: Tom Smith >To: "'montgomery_boats@lists.xmission.com'" >Subject: RE: M_Boats: End of the Millennium >Date: Thu, Dec 16, 1999, 2:33 PM > > Thank you Keith. The list works because of you. > > Tom Smith > LineSoft > (509) 928-1707 X148 > (509) 928-2581 Fax > email: tsmith@linesoft.com > website: www.linesoft.com > > -----Original Message----- > From: Keith Diehl [mailto:kdiehl@xmission.com] > Sent: Thursday, December 16, 1999 2:16 PM > To: Montgomery Boats List > Subject: M_Boats: End of the Millennium > > Well perhaps too grand a subject line, but as 1999 comes to > an end, I > did want to reflect on how this mailing list has grown in > only a very > few years to 136 members. I also want to thank each of you > for your > thoughtful contributions and support to the list. > > Season's greetings to everyone and may 2000 see us all > sailing! > > Keith Diehl - Salt Lake City, UT > http://www.xmission.com/~kdiehl > > ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: LBarkhuff@cs.com Subject: Re: M_Boats: End of the Millennium Date: 20 Dec 1999 16:39:57 EST Gee, if you bought all of those books and the videos, they could probably buy a new boat......none the less, the books are fun to read...Larry ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: LBarkhuff@cs.com Subject: Re: M_Boats: End of the Millennium Date: 20 Dec 1999 16:41:38 EST I got a book for my last birthday from my son entitled "Why Didn't I Think Of That". This book is full of really neat ideas about all sorts of things to do to your boat.Larry ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: "Keith Diehl" Subject: M_Boats: Book Reviews Date: 20 Dec 1999 14:45:49 -0700 Looking for a good read while the sailing is poor? In the Teeth of the Northeaster : A Solo Voyage on Lake Superior by Marlin Bree Maybe still time for Christmas?...every sailor's fantasy of a summer alone on a small boat. A true story. I really enjoyed this book. Keith Diehl - Salt Lake City, UT http://www.xmission.com/~kdiehl ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: Peter Jacobs Subject: Re: M_Boats: Book Reviews Date: 21 Dec 1999 03:50:11 -0800 At 02:45 PM 12/20/99 -0700, you wrote: >Looking for a good read while the sailing is poor? > >In the Teeth of the Northeaster : A Solo Voyage on Lake Superior >by Marlin Bree > >Maybe still time for Christmas?...every sailor's fantasy of a summer >alone on a small boat. A true story. I really enjoyed this book. > > >Keith Diehl - Salt Lake City, UT >http://www.xmission.com/~kdiehl Thanks for the tip, Keith ... just dialed into the library and reserved it :) -Peter- M17 #416 =========== Peter Jacobs, Victoria BC Canada http://www.islandnet.com/~pjacobs/homepage.htm ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: Don Haas Subject: Re: M_Boats: Book Reviews Date: 20 Dec 1999 20:57:48 -0800 --------------9268D6299E05CFB057C54290 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit > If you like mysteries, Sam LLewlyn has written several that involve > sailing, and boats in general. Some of his titles are Blood Orange, Death Roll, Claw hammer. I found most to be available at the local library. On a different tack, "Maiden Voyage" by Tayna Aebi was pretty good. Its about an 18 year old young lady that sailed around the world, single handed in a 26' Contessa. --------------9268D6299E05CFB057C54290 Content-Type: text/html; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit  
If you like mysteries, Sam LLewlyn has written several that involve sailing, and boats in general.
Some of his titles are Blood Orange, Death Roll, Claw hammer.  I found most to be available at the local library.

On a different tack, "Maiden Voyage" by Tayna Aebi was pretty good.  Its about an 18 year old young lady that sailed around the world, single handed in a 26' Contessa.
 
 
  --------------9268D6299E05CFB057C54290-- ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: Tim Minter Subject: M_Boats: new M12 on the block? Date: 21 Dec 1999 22:58:44 -0500 hi m-sailors! you have the honor (don't feel too special, now...) of being the first-ever public, non-work-related list to which i've ever subscribed. so, with that bit of puffery out of the way, i'll introduce myself and tell you why i'm here. i'm tim minter. my wife and i have recently relocated from gainesville, florida to asheville, north carolina. to lighten our load for the move, i scraped off the menagerie of boats which had accreted about us like barnacles. that is, all except for my sailing dink. so now, given one affordable little boat on which to focus, i guess i'll have to focus. i have it on good authority (some guy who approached me at the local sailing store and told a sad and frightful tale of losing an M10 on the interstate) that the boat i have is a Montgomery Mariner 12 Foot Sailing Dinghy. i'll have to take his word for it, and yours too if you'd like to back him up. there's a little bronze plate in the inside of the transom on the port side which some previous owner has sanded in such an artful way that it says "Montg Mari" where an apparent "o" appears after the "Montg" and an apparent "n" appears after the "Mari". i measured the critter from stern to stem and came up with twelve feet. that's overall length. the hull number stamped into the starboard outside of the transom is MMP1201030373. what does this mean? can anyone diagram that hull number for me? mostly what i get out of it is Montgomery, Mariner, P? 12 (feet?), march 3 1973? no, surely not 1973. i've searched your list archive for the string "M12" with minimal results. are there many of these beautiful little beasts? does anyone know if they're in production these days? how about dates of production? i'd be most grateful for any information you might have. i would also like to find product literature, hull, and sail plans if possible. my dinghy has a mast which appears to have been repaired at some point. it also has some rather painful looking, and poorly repaired, fiberglass damage on the interior vertical forward portion of the longitudinal port flotation chamber. looks as if a shroud failed and the base of the mast leapt from its seat and through the glass. anyway. i made a new kick-up rudder out of mahogany (for the blade) and plywood (for the top portion / sleeve) which worked out pretty well except for where i slipped with the router. i'll get it right next time. the dagger board is original and fashioned from mahogany, too. i had to hack out some rotted portions and scarf in new wood. also had to fill in some marine borer holes. after a little sander art, some planing, and a few coats of glossy enamel paint it's ugly, but serviceable. i have a plank of fresh mahogany lurking around in the basement which will become the new dagger board one day soon. i read some talk in the archive about a dagger board trunk plug. did this piece come with the boat? was the original teak, mahogany, or else? does the plug completely fill the trunk? was it for use while towing? i love this dink. i've sailed it in florida mostly on the st. johns river and at lake santa fe a few times. i've had it out in some pretty hefty wind (30 knots steady, gusts more - almost standing on the rail, my foot on the tiller, and both hands on the mainsheet...yow!) but not for long. i'm too old and weak to hold on these days. i'll be rowing it around up here in the mountain ponds, but i'll be searching out reasonably windy stretches of water within a couple of hours of driving for weekend entertainment. i'm going to strap an electric trolling motor to it at some point as an experiment in quiet, lazy boating. maybe go bass huntin'. or not. any suggestions on sufficient amounts of thrust and likely run times from standard wal-mart type fake deep-cycle batteries would be appreciated. alright. i've babbled long enough. i hope to hear from some of you fellow mdinghy sailors out there. i'll scan up some pix and toss them up on a website where you can get to them pretty soon. all these questions... tim ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: "htmills@bright.net" Subject: Re: M_Boats: new M12 on the block? Date: 22 Dec 1999 18:18:33 PST If I remember how it goes, that means: M Montgomery M Marine P Products (company name: Montgomery Marine Products) 12 feet long 0103 rd one built 03 rd month (March). The month it was born in. 73 The year it was born in. ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: "John Crews" Subject: M_Boats: singlehanded sailing is illegal? Date: 22 Dec 1999 18:26:16 PST Many boaters are familiar with "Captain Joseph." He authors a Q&A column in Santana magazine, is an Admiralty/Maritime attorney, USCG licensed Master, ASA sailing instructor, charter and delivery captain and minister. His e-mail address is ljoseph@surfside.net. In the December 1999 issue of Santana, page 49, the Captain states that one of the 10 plain-language rules that, if followed, will keep you legal and safe is: "Maintain a lookout at all times in all conditions including when anchored. A lookout is someone other than the helmsman whose primary duty is to look out for other vessels or objects with which the vessel could collide. A helmsman cannot be a lookout, thus singlehanded sailing is a violation of the Navigation Rules and subjects the singlehanded sailor to fines and jail, and makes him/her presumptively liable for any collision." A note clarifies that maintaining a lookout is required by law, and that this rule is for a boat 26 feet and larger. I have e-mailed the Captain for clarification. I'll let you know what he says. Regards, John Crews C27 "Escape" M17 "Allegretto" ______________________________________________________ Get Your Private, Free Email at http://www.hotmail.com ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: Harvey Wilson Subject: M_Boats: new M12 on the block? Date: 22 Dec 1999 23:45:25 -0500 Hi Tim.. Welcome to the group!! Guess you'll get many replies to your questions..I'll chime in as well. = MMP=3DMontgomery Marine Products 0103 is serial number 0373 is March 1973 (surprise) You passes withis a few miles of 2 M-17's at Lake Lanier, (Atlanta) on yo= ur way to Asheville (the Admirable hails from there). I sail a M-17, that I bought in Ft. Myers, Fla. about 3 1/2 years ago. I= f you ever get down this way over a decent weekend, let me know and we can = go for a sail. As to the electric motor, I tried a 36 lb. thrust on the 1600# (more lik= e 2000# with 2 adults and 2 kids aboard) M-17 when I had the gas motor in the shop. It did OK. Didn't try for any endurance tests as the battery w= as old, but it worked Ok for about 2 hours total, and still had a quarter charge according to the gauge on the motor. Should be fine for your M-12. Regards, Harvey/ Ga M-17 Stargazer #294 ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: LBarkhuff@cs.com Subject: M_Boats: engines again Date: 23 Dec 1999 11:51:00 EST OK, here we go again.....Our last discussion about engines was interesting...but I guess no one likes the idea of an outboard in a well in the cockpit... So this morning while I was doing my "paperwork" at the store, I found an ad from a guy in Sarasota Florida who wants to sell an "Atomic 2," not an atomic 4, which has 4 cylinders, but a 2, which obviously has only 2. Weight is 185# and is 27x18x20, 10hp...... so for all the techies, this thing is brand new, but is 30 years old. The spec sheet says it burns leaded regular gas. It seems to be low compression, because it will start by hand, or electric, It has 37 amp battery charging, which seems to be ok for a refrig plate in the box. What are any down sides that you genius guys can come up with? I really hate the sight of an ugly old ob hanging on the stern of a sailboat.... Larry ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: Shawn Boles Subject: RE: M_Boats: engines again - electric Date: 23 Dec 1999 10:46:29 -0800 Hi All: Agree that ob on stern is _ugly_. Anybody try electric motor? If so, how did it work? cheers, Shawn Boles 'Grey Mist' (M17 Hull#276 - 1978) -----Original Message----- Sent: Thursday, December 23, 1999 8:51 AM OK, here we go again.....Our last discussion about engines was interesting...but I guess no one likes the idea of an outboard in a well in the cockpit... So this morning while I was doing my "paperwork" at the store, I found an ad from a guy in Sarasota Florida who wants to sell an "Atomic 2," not an atomic 4, which has 4 cylinders, but a 2, which obviously has only 2. Weight is 185# and is 27x18x20, 10hp...... so for all the techies, this thing is brand new, but is 30 years old. The spec sheet says it burns leaded regular gas. It seems to be low compression, because it will start by hand, or electric, It has 37 amp battery charging, which seems to be ok for a refrig plate in the box. What are any down sides that you genius guys can come up with? I really hate the sight of an ugly old ob hanging on the stern of a sailboat.... Larry ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: "Morris, Giles" Subject: RE: M_Boats: engines again Date: 23 Dec 1999 14:05:45 -0600 >guy in Sarasota Florida who wants to sell an "Atomic 2," >not an atomic 4, which has 4 cylinders, but a 2, which obviously has only 2. >Weight is 185# and is 27x18x20, 10hp...... > What are any down sides that you genius guys can come up with? I >really hate the sight of an ugly old ob hanging on the stern of a sailboat... I'll have a go at this one, although I should warn you that I'm going to sound somewhat (excruciatingly?) negative about it. First... Background: I'm a lucky guy. I have an M-15 (powered by a Honda 5HP) and a Vancouver 25 powered by a Yanmar 2GM diesel. So I have some perspective on the relative aspects of inboard & outboard engines. I also spent a lot of time on the canals in England in the '60s and early '70s and worked for a cruiser hire company that had a variety of gas & diesel inboard engines (there was even a brand-new Atomic 4 lying around in a shed, but it never got fitted to anything). After taking a whole paragraph with that, the executive summary on my advice is more succinct: Don't Do It. Here's a few reasons why I think so: Weight. At 185 pounds, even when moving it forward to under the cockpit floor, this is considerably heavier than a 10HP outboard motor. I can't remember what kind of boat you have, but unless it's a 23 that is a lot of weight. Size: That's a large amount of space to find under the cockpit floor. And the engine itself is just the start. You'll need to locate ancillaries like water strainer, exhaust system, bilge blower, electrical panel, controls, engine bearers... Complexity: An outboard may be ugly (I agree with you there), but it's simple - Screw it on the back & pull the string. If it doesn't work, borrow another one while you get it mended. An inboard is a whole different bucket of worms. You will need to considerably upgrade your electrical system, install an engine bed & bearers, install a stern tube (no great pleasure!), install engine and transmission controls, make holes in your hull for cooling water inlet and exhaust and then install the thing. A recent article in Good Old Boat had an article reporting that it took a month of leisure time to replace one inboard diesel with another of a different make. That's quite an investment in time for a much simpler task. Maintainability: The A-4 is fairly common, but it's getting harder to find somebody who can fix one. The A-2 is pretty rare, and spare parts may be becoming an issue. For auxiliary inboards a diesel is the choice of the overwhelming majority. Unlike many people, I don't object to a gas engine in principle - and I think it has some advantages (noise, vibration, smell). On the other hand I am, on balance, glad that Dolphin has a diesel. You will have to provide access to an inboard engine, and this adds considerably to the amount of space that you must allocate to it. Reliability. That A-2 may well be unused, but it's still 30 years old. I'm fairly confident that it will need mending long before a new Honda 8HP will. Giles Morris Arlington VA Montgomery 15 #264 "Umiaq" Vancouver 25 #002 "Dolphin" ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: AirEvacLen@aol.com Subject: Re: M_Boats: engines again Date: 23 Dec 1999 18:20:24 EST In a message dated 12/23/99 1:08:52 PM US Mountain Standard Time, giles.morris@unisys.com writes: << Reliability. That A-2 may well be unused, but it's still 30 years old. I'm fairly confident that it will need mending long before a new Honda 8HP will. >> Larry I gotta agree with Giles on this one.......If you have a real aversion about ugly outboards, you could be a purist and follow the Pardys'......I'm saving up for a Yamaha 9.9 four stroke to "hang" on the transome of my M-23. The ice box in the M-23 ( as you know ) can hold enough ice for several days of partying. I'll save the refrigeration for my next boat, along with a stateroom, stand up head with shower and inboard diesel....... : ) Lenny ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: "htmills@bright.net" Subject: M_Boats: Brainstorming Date: 23 Dec 1999 18:40:38 PST Well, gee There has to be a better solution for a boat like the 23. We need to come up with something that shrouds the motor, doesn't add to the drag while sailing (ie allows the motor to be lifted clear of the water and = doesn't make a hole in the hull), and yet takes advantage of the simplicity of = the outboard. I can see at least some recognition in it for the guy who can combine these things. saving my pennies, (and actually counting them out for rolls tonight) Tod ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: "Joe Kidd" Subject: Re: M_Boats: Brainstorming Date: 23 Dec 1999 16:14:08 -0800 In response to unsightly outboard engines (or no iron wind at all) on the transoms of our M-boats... In my counseling days, I tried to help people determine the difference between "what if" and "what is." Once reality was separated from fantasy, they became more stable and were able to cope with their lot in life. Someone coined an apt word -- "satisficient" -- that pretty well says it: "not perfect, but sufficient to satisfy." In my humble opinion, our M-boats are about the most "satisficient" sail boats to be found anywhere, with or without an outboard. Merry Christmas to all! And thanks, Keith, for providing this forum for all of us Montgomery lovers. Joe Kidd M-15 #207 "Poco A Poco" ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: Tim Minter and Jenny Konwinski Subject: M_Boats: new guy pix Date: 23 Dec 1999 19:13:20 -0500 hey you wonderful people! i'm that pesky new guy who showed up recently. here are some pictures and such: http://www.ioa.com/~elminski/boats/ hit "The Dink" link. happy merry joy joy! tim ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: AZSKYBUM@aol.com Subject: Re: M_Boats: new guy pix Date: 23 Dec 1999 19:28:38 EST Nice website Tim! I liked that Seaforth sailboat, never had seen one before. It's too bad all your trees died in the pictures, we don't have problems like that in Arizona! Curtis Clark M-17 "Estoy Perdido" Scottsdale, Arizona 64F today ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: "htmills@bright.net" Subject: Re: M_Boats: new guy pix Date: 23 Dec 1999 20:17:28 PST Hey, Tim That's a pretty cool looking little boat you have there. I'd dump my JY9= in a heartbeat for something like that if it was light and narrow enough to = get in my p/u . I never even heard of Montgomerys until recently when I stumble= d across Keith Diehl's page while looking for a small cabin boat. Does she= sail as good as she looks? Tod ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: Sandyal55@aol.com Subject: Re: M_Boats: Brainstorming Date: 23 Dec 1999 20:46:27 EST Larry; If you're worried about drag, think about a prop and strut from an inboard. A little prop in the water isn't much of a problem. All boats, no matter how big, are a compromise. An outboard on a small boat is the perfect solution. Repairable and easy to work on. A new 4 stroke is the best compromise possible. Before you cut up this fine little boat, sell it to me. I almost got it before you anyway. Damn vacation in Florida got in the way. Sandy ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: LBarkhuff@cs.com Subject: Re: M_Boats: Brainstorming Date: 23 Dec 1999 21:03:01 EST Ok Sandy, I never said I was going to do tomorrow with one of those new orbit sawz, or roto saws, or whatever you call the thing. Iam just looking for all of the superior collective knowledge of a lot of M boat owners. Remember, I was an M boat owner way back in 1977, before I lost all my hair. I just saw this ad, the man is a boat builder who has the engine, there is a very LARGE warehouse full of A2 and A4 parts, so I can get spare parts. A mechanic friend says the big problem is it needs leaded gas, or have the valve seats replaced at a machine shop because of todays shitty gas. Anyone know where I can get a sculling oar? Didn't we just have that discussion?? And I am not a good enough sailor to do like Larry and Lin..... Thanks gang, a everyone have a quiet XMAS...Larry ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: Conbert H Benneck Subject: Re: M_Boats: Brainstorming Date: 23 Dec 1999 21:00:17 -0500 Keith, May I wish you a very happy holiday season, and thanks again for maintaining our website, and to all the Montgomery sailors, May you always have a fair breeze and a hands breadth of water under your keel in 2000. Connie ________________________________________________________________ YOU'RE PAYING TOO MUCH FOR THE INTERNET! Juno now offers FREE Internet Access! Try it today - there's no risk! For your FREE software, visit: http://dl.www.juno.com/get/tagj. ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: Conbert H Benneck Subject: Re: M_Boats: engines again Date: 23 Dec 1999 20:54:03 -0500 Larry, My two cents worth..... Advantages of an inboard engine: The prop is always in the water doing it's thing, vs. an outboard where the prop can try pushing air if the waves are big enough and you are pitching. A rare case but, if you have to make headway with wind against the tide, then the inboard is the better way to go. It doesn't hang on the stern asking to be stolen. You start it with the push of a button, or turn the crank. It supplies electricty for your hotel power requirements (cabin lights, electronics, nav. lights, refrigeration, water pumps, macerators for the head, ......) Disadvantages of the inboard: If you have a problem, and can't fix it yourself, you have to get a mechanic to come to the boat. You need more holes in the hull: a cooling water inlet; and an exhaust line, with attendent sea cocks and plumbing. It takes up valuable interior space; makes noise; and can lead to smells. If a gasoline engine, there is the problem of fumes from leaking carburetors, and the danger of explosive fumes in the bilge. - gasoline fumes are heavier than air and will lie in the bilge waiting for a spark to bring them to life!!!! You need an installed fuel tank with breather line - more space gone from the interior of the boat. You need an installed battery, with cabling - more weight and complexity. A 30 year old engine that requires leaded gasoline - that is no longer available - not the way to go. Those engines were designed to operate on leaded gasoline. Leaded gasoline is no longer available, e.g., the engine will run on unleaded, but for how long?? The lead in the gasoline was needed by the valves to keep them alive - no lead? - early demise of your valves, and possibly valve guides too. If you are talking about a 25 to 29 foot boat then you want an inboard engine: if you are talking 17 feet, then stay with the outboard that is totally self contained, light, and efficient. If you have problems you take the motor to the doctor, not sit around and wait for the doctor to come to the motor if it is an inboard! The full volume of the hull is available for storage: fuel spills and smells are off the stern, and not in the cabin Yes, it detracts from the looks of a "sailboat", but in smaller size boats it is the most practical and efficient way to go. Connie ________________________________________________________________ YOU'RE PAYING TOO MUCH FOR THE INTERNET! Juno now offers FREE Internet Access! Try it today - there's no risk! For your FREE software, visit: http://dl.www.juno.com/get/tagj. ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: Tim Minter and Jenny Konwinski Subject: Re: M_Boats: new M12 on the block? Date: 23 Dec 1999 21:41:54 -0500 hi harvey, thanks for the warm welcome, the information, and the invitation to come sail in your neck of the woods. i'll let you know if we're headed that way at some point, and maybe we'll cross paths. i'll post a note to the list regarding the results of my attempt at electrical dinghy power. thanks again, tim Harvey Wilson wrote: > Hi Tim.. > > Welcome to the group!! > > Guess you'll get many replies to your questions..I'll chime in as well. > > MMP=Montgomery Marine Products > 0103 is serial number > 0373 is March 1973 (surprise) > > You passes withis a few miles of 2 M-17's at Lake Lanier, (Atlanta) on your > way to Asheville (the Admirable hails from there). > > I sail a M-17, that I bought in Ft. Myers, Fla. about 3 1/2 years ago. If > you ever get down this way over a decent weekend, let me know and we can go > for a sail. > > As to the electric motor, I tried a 36 lb. thrust on the 1600# (more like > 2000# with 2 adults and 2 kids aboard) M-17 when I had the gas motor in > the shop. It did OK. Didn't try for any endurance tests as the battery was > old, but it worked Ok for about 2 hours total, and still had a quarter > charge according to the gauge on the motor. > Should be fine for your M-12. > > Regards, > > Harvey/ Ga > > M-17 Stargazer #294 ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: Tim Minter and Jenny Konwinski Subject: M_Boats: M12 Date: 23 Dec 1999 22:51:52 -0500 hi tod. it is a fetching little critter, eh? i spotted one for sale on kieth's archive at: http://www.xmission.com/pub/lists/montgomery_boats/archive/montgomery_boats.199912 search for the string "barteet." i just about peed myself in excitement when i read the description and price. but, alas, i already have one and i'm on the other end of the country. those crisp sails were calling my name, though. i priced some heavier-weight egyptian cotton colored sails with various sail makers awhile back and came up with an average of about $700 for the pair. weird thing, though, no one seemed interested in making the sails to my specifications. i guess the deal just wasn't very lucrative. i'm going to have to learn to sew and make them myself. that's ok, because i need a boat cover, too. what's a JY9? as for light, the boat seems to weigh about 200 lbs. i used to be able to wrangle it on to the top of my vw van, but not without unseemly cursing and wild stares from concerned onlookers. i would think you could get it into your pickup, especially if it's a full size truck with an 8 foot bed and you have one of those hard plastic bedliners. she sails beautifully. however, i'm not a good judge of sailing ability. i don't race, and i don't care if someone is passing me. the dink goes where i want it to go, when i want it to go there, keeps me reasonably dry, and is generally quite a pleasurable device. i've been able to catch larger boats whose crew were taunting me with beer, apparently to their captains' chagrin. i've even had her up on what seemed like plane...always on a beam reach (is it a beam reach when you're going mostly downwind, but not running?) there's this noise that rises from the usual gurgle into a frothy crescendo, and suddenly we seem to be not much in the water and really screaming along. i've single-handed her quite a bit. i've had 4 adults and one child in her at one time. average body weight, not including the little guy was probably around 160lbs. of course, the rails were getting close to the lake, and we weren't on plane. tim "htmills@bright.net" wrote: > Hey, Tim > > That's a pretty cool looking little boat you have there. I'd dump my JY9 in > a heartbeat for something like that if it was light and narrow enough to get in > my p/u . I never even heard of Montgomerys until recently when I stumbled > across Keith Diehl's page while looking for a small cabin boat. Does she sail > as good as she looks? > > Tod ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: GILASAILR@aol.com Subject: Re: M_Boats: engines again Date: 23 Dec 1999 23:15:36 EST Larry, re: Atomic 2- I really hate the idea of your boat blowing up, I agree OB's are ugly, but they are located where a gasoline motor belongs on a boat. PS Lying on ones belly and bustin knuckles is NOT fun. If it does not require an inboard consider an alternative. K.I.S.S. Happy Holidays to all! "Live and Love,Share and Care"- Dr. John G.O. M-17 #319 ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: Harvey Wilson Subject: M_Boats: singlehanded sailing is illegal? Date: 23 Dec 1999 23:36:14 -0500 >>> A helmsman cannot be a lookout, thus singlehanded sailing is a = violation of the Navigation Rules and subjects the singlehanded sailor to= = fines and jail, and makes him/her presumptively liable for any collision.= " A = note clarifies that maintaining a lookout is required by law, and that th= is rule is for a boat 26 feet and larger.<<< Very interesting...then all the Around Alone races are tecnically illega= l ?? Regards, Harvey/ Ga M-17 Stargazer #294 ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: mikit Subject: Re: M_Boats: Brainstorming Date: 23 Dec 1999 23:31:42 -0700 >Ok Sandy, I never said I was going to do tomorrow with one of those new orbit >sawz, or roto saws, or whatever you call the thing. Iam just looking for >all of the superior collective knowledge of a lot of M boat owners. > Larry, If its superior collective knowledge you desire on this subject, you may want to consider this approach. United States Patent 590,741 Spring motor assembly Abstract "A spring motor having a large number of flat spiral wound springs connected in series which allows storage of large amounts of energy in a small amount of cubic space. Only a small force is required for full wind up of the assembly. Energy can be simultaneously stored and withdrawn." This system does however introduce the challenge of where to store the key. Happy Holidays Mike M17 #369 ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: LBarkhuff@cs.com Subject: Re: M_Boats: singlehanded sailing is illegal? Date: 24 Dec 1999 10:49:01 EST the argument about singlehand racers being alone goes on every time a race is started, or someone famous gets into trouble....nothing ever comes of it, though...Larry ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: Harvey Wilson Subject: M_Boats: engines again Date: 24 Dec 1999 23:29:18 -0500 Hi Larry... That's a heavy motor for 10 hp in a M-23. And you didn't say if it had a= transmission with it. The alternator is a nice plus, but IM(ns)HO, cutting a hole in the stern for cutlass bearing/prop shaft is setting you up for some expensive maintenance work every few years when it's time to replace the packing on= the cutlass bearing. Aslo, you're going to modify the rudder to accomodate the prop, unless you're going to put the prop behind the keel, but in front of the rudder,= somehow. Depending on the size of prop that you _need_, this may put the= prop lower then the keel with centerboard raised. And to use an undersiz= ed prop is asking for poor performance. = The installation will be expensive..or labor intensive if you have "free labor", and it takes up valuable space. Find a nice, QB series Seagull w F-N-R ..the Kingfisher. Oh yeah...I agree double with Giles... = Season's Greetings Harvey/ Ga M-17 Stargazer #294 w/40+ Seagull = ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: Wcpritchett@aol.com Subject: M_Boats: Introduction Date: 26 Dec 1999 10:02:17 EST Hi Everyone, I am 51 years old, a new list subscriber and own a M-10 #112. The boat was purchased by me in 1975 ($500 used) and is used as a sailing/rowing dink for pleasure. If memory serves me right the new price in 1975 was about $800. It has the Gunter sail rig. I sail out of the Banana River on the East coast of Florida and power it with a vintage 1953 Johnson 3 hp twin. This Montgomery 10 has been one nice little craft...sails very well, takes chop and is easy to handle. I have some experience sailing various rigs and look forward to future boat talk with you. Thanks, Bill Pritchett in Florida ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: AirEvacLen@aol.com Subject: Re: M_Boats: Introduction Date: 26 Dec 1999 10:26:07 EST In a message dated 12/26/1999 8:02:48 AM US Mountain Standard Time, Wcpritchett@aol.com writes: << I have some experience sailing various rigs and look forward to future boat talk with you. >> Welcome aboard, Bill..........I'm sure you will find the list informative, interesting, and on occoasion, humorous.........hehe. : ) Lenny M-23#003 Sea Horse ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: "htmills@bright.net" Subject: Re: M_Boats: M12 Date: 26 Dec 1999 19:22:06 PST Hello, I hope everyone had a nice Christmas! Tim Thanks for the pointer for the boat; I should have said *if* I were looking for a little boat because I plan to sell my JY9 to get a cabin boat (so far the M17 leads my list). The JY9 is a 9'-6" dinghy apparently now owned by Hunter because it's now sold as the Hunter 90 (and appears on Hunter's web page). It's a kind of mediocre boat that I won't miss when I sell (unlike my Thistle). Hunter's aquisition of the boat didn't help it any. Mine is a pre-Hunter version and comes with a bona-fide foil daggerboard (another story altogether) whereas the Hunters I've seen have no real daggerboard; you remove the plywood seat and stick it down the daggerboard well and pretend you have a daggerboard. That HAD to be an accountant's decision I would think. At least I can't see any self-respecting craftsman doing such a thing. Pictures of it can be seen at: http://www.jysailboats.com/h90.htm My first boat was comparably sized (8' pram) and was a much nicer boat. It actually had a pivoting centerboard instead a vertically- retracting daggerboard which was MUCH nicer. I then converted it to a sloop, which I find considerably more fun to sail than a cat-rig. Anyway.... I got my copy of the MON the other day with a couple pictures of Theo's M23 and his story of bringing it home. That's a pretty neat looking boat. It will be interesting to see the new deck our builders are designing. ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: LBarkhuff@cs.com Subject: M_Boats: Fwd: MONTGOMERY 23 Date: 26 Dec 1999 22:31:27 EST --part1_0.917face0.2598378f_boundary Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit --part1_0.917face0.2598378f_boundary Content-Type: message/rfc822 Content-Disposition: inline Return-Path: Received: from rly-xa02.mx.cs.com (rly-xa02.mail.cs.com [172.31.34.47]) by air-wa01.mail.cs.com (v67.7) with ESMTP; Sun, 26 Dec 1999 19:11:54 -0500 Received: from mailsorter-105-1.iap.bryant.webtv.net (mailsorter-105-1.iap.bryant.webtv.net [209.240.198.119]) by rly-xa02.mx.cs.com (v67.7) with ESMTP; Sun, 26 Dec 1999 19:11:48 1900 Received: from storefull-298.iap.bryant.webtv.net (storefull-298.iap.bryant.webtv.net [209.240.198.51]) by mailsorter-105-1.iap.bryant.webtv.net (WebTV_Postfix) with ESMTP id 0E084A09 for ; Sun, 26 Dec 1999 16:11:48 -0800 (PST) Received: (from production@localhost) by storefull-298.iap.bryant.webtv.net (8.8.8-wtv-e/mt.gso.26Feb98) id QAA13013; Sun, 26 Dec 1999 16:11:47 -0800 (PST) X-WebTV-Signature: 1 ETAsAhQlbGhy5BNESAsj29WClxrgW9jjMwIUUlDhWAFs4YQHXczMATkqlp+r/pE= Message-ID: <13902-3866AEC3-3687@storefull-298.iap.bryant.webtv.net> Content-Disposition: Inline Content-Type: Text/Plain; Charset=US-ASCII Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7Bit MIME-Version: 1.0 (WebTV) HI I AM HARVEY ZELIGMAN. I HAVE A 79 M23 SAIL #7. I'VE OWNED HER FOR 12 YRS. SHE IS IN VERY GOOD CONDITION AS I AM A BOAT BUILDER HOBBIEST. SHE IS IN SANTA BARBARA NOW. YOU MAY KNOW HER, TONINA. LONG AGO, I LOST THE SPECS, WEIGHT ETC. I WONDER IF YOU KNOW. I HAVE A PROBLEM ALSO. A YEAR AGO I GROUNDED IN BAJA. I CRANKED UP THE KEEL AND GOT FREE BUT NOW THE KEEL WON'T COME DOWN. I THINK I GOT A ROCK STUCK IN THE HOUSING. DO I NEED TO HOIST IT UP? ANYWAY, KEEP ME ON YOUR LIST BECAUSE THIS IS MY BOAT FOR LIFE. THANKS, HARVEY --part1_0.917face0.2598378f_boundary-- ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: Francene Lebowitz Subject: Re: M_Boats: Introduction Date: 27 Dec 1999 21:18:36 +0100 Wcpritchett@aol.com wrote: > > Hi Everyone, > I am 51 years old, a new list subscriber and own a M-10 #112... > Bill Pritchett in Florida Welcome Bill! I think you are the second small M boat owner to join the list in the last week. It's interesting to hear from you folks; most here own the M15, or M17- some have a 23' Montgomery. How do you transport your craft? Vintage motor, too. Do you have any photos? Fran M15 #236 ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: AirEvacLen@aol.com Subject: M_Boats: Re:TONINA Date: 27 Dec 1999 09:01:17 EST Harvey The fit between the trunk and c/b is very tight. It's possible you may have gotten something jammed up in there when you grounded........I was able to free dive and use a small pry bar to free up my c/b. It had rusted some on the lower 1/3 and was ever so slightly wedged. A little scraping and it's good as new. Others have hoisted their boats, dropped the boards and had them sand blasted and refinished. A very good idea if the boat has been in the water for an extended period, and you are planning on having her hauled out. As for specs, I have them somewhere but here's what I remember off the top of my head......OAL 23'.0"......Beam 8'.0"......W/L 21',6"......Disp 3550 Ballast 1500......Draft 2'.11" ( up ) 4' 11" ( down ).........If you need more, I'll have to do some spring cleaning.......... : ) Happy sailing, Lenny M-23#003 Sea Horse ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: Wcpritchett@aol.com Subject: Re: M_Boats: Introduction Date: 27 Dec 1999 10:27:50 EST Hi Fran, My M-10 has always been within "dragging" distance to the water so transporting has been minimal. I "capped" the aft end of the keel (approx 3') with a stainless steel strap so I could drag it without damaging the fiberglass. Right now it is on a dock and slides into the water easily. Otherwise, I put it on car top racks if taking it somewhere. I can load it on the car by myself but I modified the racks to make this easier. It has been car topped to the Florida Keys several times which is about 300 miles. I will send some pics when I find a scanner to use. Does anyone know how many M-10s were built and is it being built today? I see M-15s and M-17s for sale down here but never any M-10s. Regards, Bill in Florida ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: Conbert H Benneck Subject: Re: M_Boats: storm jib Date: 27 Dec 1999 20:33:47 -0500 Joe the bloomers are a size 12 - I checked them myself, very carefully! Connie ________________________________________________________________ YOU'RE PAYING TOO MUCH FOR THE INTERNET! Juno now offers FREE Internet Access! Try it today - there's no risk! For your FREE software, visit: http://dl.www.juno.com/get/tagj. ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: "Joe Kidd" Subject: Re: M_Boats: storm jib Date: 27 Dec 1999 18:07:18 -0800 Connie, You old salt... Sounds like you had a happy holiday. Merry Christmas and Happy New Year. Joe Kidd ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: Harvey Wilson Subject: M_Boats: Introduction Date: 27 Dec 1999 21:42:21 -0500 Hi Bill... Welcome to the group. Always glad to learn of another M-owner close to Georgia. My M-17, and a few M-15's came out of Florida, so it's nice to know we didn't deplete the supply = Whereabouts is the Bananna River ?? Harvey/ Ga M-17 Stargazer #294 ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: Wcpritchett@aol.com Subject: Re: M_Boats: Introduction Date: 28 Dec 1999 10:06:15 EST Hi George, The Banana River is located on the east coast of central Florida between Merritt Island and Cocoa Beach...the river starts north at Kennedy Space Center, runs south by the Port Canaveral Locks (to Atlantic) and continues south until it meets the Indian River (intracoastal waterway) at Melbourne. Brackish water with no tide, generally very shallow with lots of 2'-3' grassy flats and some "wilderness" areas for small craft cruisers. There is a channel running most of the length for deep draft vessels. Take route 50/520 east from Orlando and it runs directly across the Indian River (intracoastal ww), Newfound Harbor and then Banana River to Cocoa Beach...about a 50 mile trip. Bill Pritchett/FL M-10 #112 "HO HO" (and sometimes "OH OH") ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: jerry montgomery Subject: Re: M_Boats: Howdy! Date: 28 Dec 1999 11:20:49 +0000 Hi Jeffrey Yes, that be me. Think I'll pass on the 12, I'd love to have it for old time's sake but one of these days, if I'm fortunate enough to run out of work for a while, I'm going to go to Bob Eeg's shop and make a daysailor 15 so I can go down and float around in Mexico. Also, my old buddy Tom Smith wants that 12 so I figure if he buys it he'll have to fix up the trailer to take it to Spokane and I can buy it from him for 3 or 4 hundred in a couple of years. I hope he doesn't wax it. What color is it? Jerry ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: Motomike@aol.com Subject: Re: M_Boats: Howdy! Date: 28 Dec 1999 14:54:33 EST Hey Jerry! Describe your vision of a daysailor 15. Thanks, Mike ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: LBarkhuff@cs.com Subject: Fwd: M_Boats: Re:TONINA Date: 28 Dec 1999 19:53:38 EST --part1_0.73f70092.259ab592_boundary Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit --part1_0.73f70092.259ab592_boundary Content-Type: message/rfc822 Content-Disposition: inline Return-Path: Received: from rly-xa01.mx.cs.com (rly-xa01.mail.cs.com [172.31.36.140]) by air-xa01.mail.cs.com (v67.7) with ESMTP; Tue, 28 Dec 1999 11:07:14 -0500 Received: from mailsorter-105-2.iap.bryant.webtv.net (mailsorter-105-2.iap.bryant.webtv.net [209.240.198.118]) by rly-xa01.mx.cs.com (v67.7) with ESMTP; Tue, 28 Dec 1999 11:07:13 1900 Received: from storefull-292.iap.bryant.webtv.net (storefull-292.iap.bryant.webtv.net [209.240.198.136]) by mailsorter-105-2.iap.bryant.webtv.net (WebTV_Postfix) with ESMTP id 409FB2CFE0 for ; Tue, 28 Dec 1999 08:07:13 -0800 (PST) Received: (from production@localhost) by storefull-292.iap.bryant.webtv.net (8.8.8-wtv-e/mt.gso.26Feb98) id IAA10050; Tue, 28 Dec 1999 08:07:13 -0800 (PST) X-WebTV-Signature: 1 ETArAhM/N2GAwPRGs2TcWbK29DjHS/7aAhRLQ8DM1Qp+T+ab5STPbebdOWFeqw== Message-ID: <28108-3868E031-2681@storefull-292.iap.bryant.webtv.net> In-Reply-To: LBarkhuff@cs.com's message of Mon, 27 Dec 1999 20:12:40 EST Content-Disposition: Inline Content-Type: Text/Plain; Charset=US-ASCII Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7Bit MIME-Version: 1.0 (WebTV) to airevac lenny. i'm an e.r. doc, know airevac. thanks for the advise. i think i'll haul out free up keel and fix whatever is needed. i tried crowbar and snorkel. rust may well be the cause. thank you.. p.s. larry, i don't have fax, thanks for the relay, hope to hear from you i.e. santa barbara harvey --part1_0.73f70092.259ab592_boundary-- ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: "John Fell" Subject: Re: M_Boats: engines again - electric Date: 27 Dec 1999 18:02:40 -0800 I have an electric for an M15. It works great in nice weather, but don't get in a blow with that on your stearn. It is completely worthless. when the wind is blowing you need some iron wind. Thats my feelings, but I could be wrong. John Fell M15. #126 -----Original Message----- >Hi All: > >Agree that ob on stern is _ugly_. Anybody try electric motor? If so, how did >it work? > > >cheers, > >Shawn Boles >'Grey Mist' (M17 Hull#276 - 1978) > >-----Original Message----- >From: LBarkhuff@cs.com [mailto:LBarkhuff@cs.com] >Sent: Thursday, December 23, 1999 8:51 AM >To: montgomery_boats@lists.xmission.com >Subject: M_Boats: engines again > > > OK, here we go again.....Our last discussion about engines was >interesting...but I guess no one likes the idea of an outboard in a well in >the cockpit... > > So this morning while I was doing my "paperwork" at the store, I >found an ad from a guy in Sarasota Florida who wants to sell an "Atomic 2," >not an atomic 4, which has 4 cylinders, but a 2, which obviously has only 2. > >Weight is 185# and is 27x18x20, 10hp...... > > so for all the techies, this thing is brand new, but is 30 years >old. > The spec sheet says it burns leaded regular gas. It seems to be low >compression, because it will start by hand, or electric, It has 37 amp >battery charging, which seems to be ok for a refrig plate in the box. > > What are any down sides that you genius guys can come up with? I >really hate the sight of an ugly old ob hanging on the stern of a >sailboat.... > > Larry > > > ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: Conbert H Benneck Subject: Re: M_Boats: storm jib Date: 29 Dec 1999 20:28:39 -0500 Joe Checking bloomer sizes is always a happy holiday! May you and your family have a a New Year with good health and filled with contentment, ....and good M15 sailing. Connie ________________________________________________________________ YOU'RE PAYING TOO MUCH FOR THE INTERNET! Juno now offers FREE Internet Access! Try it today - there's no risk! For your FREE software, visit: http://dl.www.juno.com/get/tagj.