From: Bob Olson Subject: M_Boats: M-17 forsale in Florida Date: 01 Jan 2001 10:42:10 -0800 Just in case somebody in Florida might be looking for an M-17, I picked this up off ofthe boattrader site. (boattraderonline.com) 1999 MONTGOMERY, 17ft Lyle Hess design, roller furling, large cockpit and cabin with V birth and 2 side births, Honda four stroke 5HP outboard and trailer, purchased new $17,400, asking $9950, call 321-632-6961. Rockledge, FL BTW, If anyone knows of a M-17 forsale in the northwest, I'm looking for one. Bob Olson M-15 "Piccolo" ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: Bob Subject: Re: M_Boats: M-17 forsale in Florida Date: 01 Jan 2001 10:54:12 -0800 Bob Thats Wallys boat ( he and his wife never used her) and its sold. Its the boat we use on the front page of our website. Bob Nor'Sea Bob Olson wrote: > Just in case somebody in Florida might be looking for an M-17, I picked > this up off ofthe boattrader site. (boattraderonline.com) > > > 1999 MONTGOMERY, 17ft Lyle Hess design, roller furling, large cockpit and > cabin with > V birth and 2 side births, Honda four stroke 5HP outboard and trailer, > purchased new > $17,400, asking $9950, call 321-632-6961. Rockledge, FL > > BTW, If anyone knows of a M-17 forsale in the northwest, I'm looking for > one. > > > Bob Olson > M-15 "Piccolo" > > > > ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: "Theo Petron" Subject: M_Boats: M23 Date: 01 Jan 2001 14:50:57 -0600 Hey Bob/Jerry, Is there any way to lock the centerboard in the down position? Plans for this on the new one? Bones Bowden and I have discussed the safety issue of this during really heavy weather. Thoughts? Oh, please make sure the cavity for the centerboard of the new 23 is not too tight, and inspection ports to change the pendant cable are real handy. Happy New Year! Theo Petron M23 "Sails Increase" ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: sparsons@canby.com (Steve Parsons) Subject: Re: M_Boats: M-17 forsale in Florida Date: 01 Jan 2001 21:32:46 -0800 Bob, There are two at Stockdale's in California, and one at The Sailing Life in Portland... Steve >Just in case somebody in Florida might be looking for an M-17, I picked >this up off ofthe boattrader site. (boattraderonline.com) > > >1999 MONTGOMERY, 17ft Lyle Hess design, roller furling, large cockpit and >cabin with > V birth and 2 side births, Honda four stroke 5HP outboard and trailer, >purchased new > $17,400, asking $9950, call 321-632-6961. Rockledge, FL > >BTW, If anyone knows of a M-17 forsale in the northwest, I'm looking for >one. > > >Bob Olson >M-15 "Piccolo" > > > ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: Fran Lebowitz Subject: Re: M_Boats: Sailing main only question Date: 01 Jan 2001 21:52:32 -0700 Dan White wrote: > > I'm looking for a Montgomery 15 to buy. I would like to know from members of > this group how it handles under main sail only? How about jib only? Hi Dan, We have sailed on main only in windy conditions; she'll heel less, but doesn't come about as easily as with the jib up. Good luck in finding a boat. Fran M15 #236 ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: AirEvacLen@aol.com Subject: Re: M_Boats: M23 Centerboard Date: 02 Jan 2001 23:30:20 EST In a message dated 01/01/2001 2:50:50 PM US Mountain Standard Time, htmills@bright.net writes: << Theo......if the c/b is like mine on my M17 you don't need to lock it down for safety....there is sufficient ballast in the keel. Tod >> Tod You have to understand where Theo is going with this.........despite the ballasted keel, you have a c/b which is subject to the laws of gravity..........roll the boat over beyond it's lateral stability point and you have a c/b ready to crash through the trunk. I've thought about it too, Theo............. Lenny ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: Richard Lane Subject: Re: M_Boats: M23 Centerboard Date: 02 Jan 2001 21:44:07 -0800 I think the only safe way to "lock" the cb down on a 23 is by means of a sacrificial long dowel inserted behind the Merriman winch to bear on the iron plate just forward of the tang. This dowel would break in a hard grounding but keep the keel in the maximum restoring moment position in a knockdown. I was once knocked down in SF Bay till water came over the cockpit coaming and my son almost went o'board, the plate did not come all the way up but was heard to clunk back down when the microburst relented. Regards, Dick AirEvacLen@aol.com wrote: > In a message dated 01/01/2001 2:50:50 PM US Mountain Standard Time, > htmills@bright.net writes: > > << Theo......if the c/b is like mine on my M17 you don't > need to lock it down for safety....there is sufficient > ballast in the keel. > > Tod > >> > > Tod > > You have to understand where Theo is going with this.........despite the > ballasted keel, you have a c/b which is subject to the laws of > gravity..........roll the boat over beyond it's lateral stability point and > you have a c/b ready to crash through the trunk. I've thought about it too, > Theo............. > > Lenny ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: Bob Subject: Re: M_Boats: M23 Centerboard Date: 02 Jan 2001 22:14:43 -0800 Hi Dick Jerry and I are discussing installing a cast bronze centerboard. I've looked at bronze boards in 35 year old boats and they look good as new. Iron has its disadvantages. One is rust, another is fittings tend to break off them, if drilled and tapped. Fiberglass is always an option but they can have problems with abrasion and still have to be bottom painted. Stainless could be done with todays neat laser cutters but it would be hard to shape an airfoil on a stainless steel plate. (not impossible but hard). Cast silicon bronze is heavy and almost bullet proof . It can be cast in a smooth airfoil shape and all the "Down stops" and "Up stops" can be cast into the original board, eliminating extra machining and avoiding drilling and tapping machine holes with disimilar metals and the problems of corrosion. A proper Up stop (ledge) can be designed into the shape and prevent the hypothetical (sp) problem of the centerboard crashing thru the truck top. (hehehehe) The one big disadvantage is cost. Its much more expensive to build a special mold (for the foundry) and all the preparation and burnishing that would have to be done. But in the long run, for an offshore boat that will be traveling to distant waters, the last thing you want to worry about is the centerboard. Plus...Jerry really wants that perfect "Airfoil" shape....something about kicking butt going to windward ??? (sounds like a racing sailor ?) *smile* So bronze will be our first choice. Fair winds. Bob Nor'Sea Richard Lane wrote: > I think the only safe way to "lock" the cb down on a 23 is by means of a > sacrificial long dowel inserted behind the Merriman winch to bear on the iron > plate just forward of the tang. This dowel would break in a hard grounding but > keep the keel in the maximum restoring moment position in a knockdown. > I was once knocked down in SF Bay till water came over the cockpit coaming > and my son almost went o'board, the plate did not come all the way up but was > heard to clunk back down when the microburst relented. > Regards, Dick > > > AirEvacLen@aol.com wrote: > >> In a message dated 01/01/2001 2:50:50 PM US Mountain Standard Time, >> htmills@bright.net writes: >> >> << Theo......if the c/b is like mine on my M17 you don't >> need to lock it down for safety....there is sufficient >> ballast in the keel. >> >> Tod >> >> >> >> Tod >> >> You have to understand where Theo is going with this.........despite the >> ballasted keel, you have a c/b which is subject to the laws of >> gravity..........roll the boat over beyond it's lateral stability point and >> you have a c/b ready to crash through the trunk. I've thought about it too, >> Theo............. >> >> Lenny > ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: "Thomas Wilkinson" Subject: Re: M_Boats: M23 Centerboard Date: 02 Jan 2001 23:00:34 -0800 Bob Glad to hear you are leaning toward a bronze centerboard. For a potential offshore boat, bronze would be safer and more trouble free than fiberglass. Tom ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: Howard A Subject: Re: M_Boats: M23 Centerboard Date: 03 Jan 2001 06:40:12 -0600 Bob: Any chance the foundary would get excited about doing bronze cb's for the older boats? I have been unable to find a foundary in the midwest interested in taking on the job of casting one for the older 17's. They just say it can't be done...we never get to price. I have a couple of leads left, but after that, I have hit the wall. If the foundary you use would give a quote to build the pattern and the boards, some of us could then decide if we want to spring for one. I would think a bronze cb would be a usefull upgrade for all the older boats with cast iron boards. Assuming they were all built to the same specs, there might be enough of us to split the cost to make it feasible to do. BTW, the M23 project is sounding better all the time. I hope somebody is taking pictures! Howard Bob wrote: > Hi Dick > Jerry and I are discussing installing a cast bronze centerboard. > I've looked at bronze boards in 35 year old boats and they look > good as new. ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: Bob Subject: Re: M_Boats: M23 Centerboard Date: 03 Jan 2001 05:46:51 -0800 Howard We have a meeting with the foundry later next week. I doubt they will help with patterns because they will only do the molding and we have to build the match plates and tooling ourselves (boards). They don't do any tooling..... just casting. One idea on the older boats might be to have a sheet of 1/2 inch stainless laser cut with the shape of the old board. If you could get enough people to chip in some money it wouldn' t be so expensive. 3/8 inch might even work. (plate). We are taking pictures. If I could just figure out how to use this scanner....... Later Bob Howard A wrote: > Bob: > > Any chance the foundary would get excited about doing bronze cb's for the older > boats? > > I have been unable to find a foundary in the midwest interested in taking on the > job of casting one for the older 17's. They just say it can't be done...we never > get to price. > > I have a couple of leads left, but after that, I have hit the wall. If the foundary > you use would give a quote to build the pattern and the boards, some of us could > then decide if we want to spring for one. I would think a bronze cb would be a > usefull upgrade for all the older boats with cast iron boards. Assuming they were > all built to the same specs, there might be enough of us to split the cost to make > it feasible to do. > > BTW, the M23 project is sounding better all the time. I hope somebody is taking > pictures! > > Howard > > Bob wrote: > >> Hi Dick >> Jerry and I are discussing installing a cast bronze centerboard. >> I've looked at bronze boards in 35 year old boats and they look >> good as new. > ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: Howard A Subject: Re: M_Boats: M23 Centerboard Date: 03 Jan 2001 18:40:42 -0600 Bob: When you say "build the boards" for the tooling, are you talking outline or an actual 3D shape? My existing board is 3/4 inch. Are you thinking it doesn't need to be that wide if made of the right bronze alloy? Or it could be that we are not talking about the same casting process. You may be talking about casting two pieces and joining them. Do you still have the specs for the old boards, or would one of us need to provide you with them? Perhaps the board itself? And I guess it all depends on what the cost of each casting would be, assuming the patterns are already made. That may make a moot point of all this :-) Howard Bob wrote: > Howard > We have a meeting with the foundry later next week. > I doubt they will help with patterns because they will only > do the molding and we have to build the match plates and > tooling ourselves (boards). They don't do any tooling..... > just casting. > One idea on the older boats might be to have a sheet of 1/2 > inch stainless laser cut with the shape of the old board. > If you could get enough people to chip in some money it > wouldn' t be so expensive. 3/8 inch might even work. > (plate). > ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: "Roberta & Mark Dvorscak" Subject: M_Boats: Re:bronze M17 Centerboard Date: 03 Jan 2001 18:48:48 -0800 Hey, count me in as a very interested party regarding the bronze M17 centerboard upgrade!! Mark Dvorscak M17#400 GRACE ----- Original Message ----- Sent: Wednesday, January 03, 2001 4:40 AM > Bob: > > Any chance the foundary would get excited about doing bronze cb's for the older > boats? > > I have been unable to find a foundary in the midwest interested in taking on the > job of casting one for the older 17's. They just say it can't be done...we never > get to price. > > I have a couple of leads left, but after that, I have hit the wall. If the foundary > you use would give a quote to build the pattern and the boards, some of us could > then decide if we want to spring for one. I would think a bronze cb would be a > usefull upgrade for all the older boats with cast iron boards. Assuming they were > all built to the same specs, there might be enough of us to split the cost to make > it feasible to do. > > BTW, the M23 project is sounding better all the time. I hope somebody is taking > pictures! > > Howard > > Bob wrote: > > > Hi Dick > > Jerry and I are discussing installing a cast bronze centerboard. > > I've looked at bronze boards in 35 year old boats and they look > > good as new. > > > > > ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: AirEvacLen@aol.com Subject: Re: M_Boats: M23 Centerboard Date: 03 Jan 2001 22:19:17 EST In a message dated 01/03/2001 5:39:58 PM US Mountain Standard Time, haudsley@tranquility.net writes: << Bob: When you say "build the boards" for the tooling, are you talking outline or an actual 3D shape? My existing board is 3/4 inch. Are you thinking it doesn't need to be that wide >> Now you've really got something started, Bob............... : ) Lenny ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: "Shelley Daringer" Subject: M_Boats: M17 FS Date: 04 Jan 2001 00:14:03 -0600 just lookin' around and found an M17 for sale. http://yachtworld.com/boats/view_more_boat.cgi.en?url=&boat_id=702778&align=left&units=¤cy=&access=Public&listing_id=27026&page=&mls_true= Shelley _________________________________________________________________ Get your FREE download of MSN Explorer at http://explorer.msn.com ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: Bob Subject: Re: M_Boats: M23 Centerboard Date: 04 Jan 2001 18:37:07 -0800 Lenny They are called match plates. They are in 3D. I think a metal replacement board (close tolerance) would work at probably 1/2 inch thick. There wouldn't be any 'play' and a thin nylon spacer could be installed on each side to prevent side movement. The reason for the thinness is that it would solve the 'swelling' centerboard trunk problem on the early boats. Normal size boards just don't fit well in some of the older boats. (talking about the 15 and 17, not the 23). still having fun with this 23 project! Fair Winds Bob AirEvacLen@aol.com wrote: > In a message dated 01/03/2001 5:39:58 PM US Mountain Standard Time, > haudsley@tranquility.net writes: > > << Bob: > > When you say "build the boards" for the tooling, are you talking outline or > an actual 3D > shape? My existing board is 3/4 inch. Are you thinking it doesn't need to be > that wide > >> > Now you've really got something started, Bob............... : ) > > Lenny > > > > ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: Howard A Subject: M_Boats: M17 Centerboards Date: 04 Jan 2001 21:43:50 -0600 > Another concern if bronze cb's for the M17 are to be contemplated. Fritz Stuneck's M17 board shown on the MSOG website....... http://msog.brinet.net/how-to/cb-fritz.htm and my board (M17 #278) .... http://msog.brinet.net/layouts/M-17-cb.htm are not even close to being the same design...either in shape or how the lift works. Mine wouldn't fit his boat or vice versa. I wonder which type is most common...or worse, are there even more variations. Hard to make one replacement for several different designs. Curious to hear from the other 17 owners with cast iron cb's (or from Jerry), which design is most common...and, of these two types, which one most resembles the current fiberglass cb? Howard M17 #278 ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: Dale Williams Subject: M_Boats: Strictly Sail Chicago Date: 04 Jan 2001 22:53:34 -0600 Are any Montgomery sailors planning on attending Strictly Sail Chicago, Feb. 1-4? Web page at has information if anyone is interested. Dale M15 "Sophie Mae" ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: "Roberta & Mark Dvorscak" Subject: M_Boats: boat show Date: 04 Jan 2001 21:18:56 -0800 I won't be at Strictly Sail Chicago but I might be at the Seattle boat show on Jan 20. Will anybody else from the list be there? Mark Dvorscak M17 #400 GRACE > Are any Montgomery sailors planning on attending Strictly Sail Chicago, > Feb. 1-4? Web page at > > Dale > M15 "Sophie Mae" > > > ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: "Roberta & Mark Dvorscak" Subject: Re: M_Boats: M17 Centerboards Date: 04 Jan 2001 21:25:48 -0800 Howard, The centerboard on GRACE 1983 hull #400 is identical yours. Mark Howard wrote... > > Curious to hear from the other 17 owners with cast iron cb's (or from Jerry), which design > is most common... > Howard > M17 #278 > > > ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: "Shelley Daringer" Subject: Re: M_Boats: M17 Centerboards Date: 05 Jan 2001 01:01:14 -0600 Howard, Mine is identical to yours. Shelley "No Worries" M17 #301 >From: Howard A >Reply-To: montgomery_boats@lists.xmission.com >To: montgomery_boats@lists.xmission.com >Subject: M_Boats: M17 Centerboards >Date: Thu, 04 Jan 2001 21:43:50 -0600 > > > > >Another concern if bronze cb's for the M17 are to be contemplated. > >Fritz Stuneck's M17 board shown on the MSOG website....... > >http://msog.brinet.net/how-to/cb-fritz.htm > >and my board (M17 #278) .... > >http://msog.brinet.net/layouts/M-17-cb.htm > >are not even close to being the same design...either in shape or how the >lift works. Mine >wouldn't fit his boat or vice versa. > >I wonder which type is most common...or worse, are there even more >variations. > >Hard to make one replacement for several different designs. > >Curious to hear from the other 17 owners with cast iron cb's (or from >Jerry), which design >is most common...and, of these two types, which one most resembles the >current fiberglass >cb? > >Howard >M17 #278 > > _________________________________________________________________ Get your FREE download of MSN Explorer at http://explorer.msn.com ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: Fritz Stuneck Subject: Re: M_Boats: M17 Centerboards Date: 05 Jan 2001 05:27:15 -0600 > >Curious to hear from the other 17 owners with cast iron cb's (or >from Jerry), which design >is most common...and, of these two types, which one most resembles >the current fiberglass >cb? > >Howard >M17 #278 I believe Jerry M. stated once that there were only about 20 of us that have the heavier centerboard with the heavy duty crank mechanism. After the first 20 or so, a change was made to using some sort of ballast in the full length of the keel (perhaps steel pellets?) fiberglassed into the bottom and the addition of the thinner, lead coated board. Maybe Jerry M. has the exact number and the newer configuration. In shallow water, when I crank my board down, I can lift the boat out of the water! The board doesn't flop around as it is fixed with a screwthread device which can be seen in those pictures mentioned. I'm not racing my boat, but would think that it would tend to be better suited to racing in heavier air as the weight is concentrated lower. Has anyone ever been knocked over and had their boat flop back up into it's cavity in the keel??? (as you are rounding up, of course) ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: Shawn Boles Subject: RE: M_Boats: M17 Centerboards Date: 05 Jan 2001 11:10:20 -0800 The cb in 'Grey Mist' is identical to that of hulls #278 &n #400 cheers- Shawn Boles Grey Mist (M17 #276 1978) -----Original Message----- Sent: Thursday, January 04, 2001 9:26 PM Howard, The centerboard on GRACE 1983 hull #400 is identical yours. Mark Howard wrote... > > Curious to hear from the other 17 owners with cast iron cb's (or from Jerry), which design > is most common... > Howard > M17 #278 > > > ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: "David and Nancy Phippeny" Subject: Re: M_Boats: M17 Centerboards Date: 05 Jan 2001 20:21:19 -0600 Hull # 49 is like #278 Dave ----- Original Message ----- Sent: Thursday, January 04, 2001 9:43 PM > > > > Another concern if bronze cb's for the M17 are to be contemplated. > > Fritz Stuneck's M17 board shown on the MSOG website....... > > http://msog.brinet.net/how-to/cb-fritz.htm > > and my board (M17 #278) .... > > http://msog.brinet.net/layouts/M-17-cb.htm > > are not even close to being the same design...either in shape or how the lift works. Mine > wouldn't fit his boat or vice versa. > > I wonder which type is most common...or worse, are there even more variations. > > Hard to make one replacement for several different designs. > > Curious to hear from the other 17 owners with cast iron cb's (or from Jerry), which design > is most common...and, of these two types, which one most resembles the current fiberglass > cb? > > Howard > M17 #278 > > > ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: leyake@juno.com Subject: Re: M_Boats: hull insulation / soundproofing Date: 06 Jan 2001 19:28:39 -0800 I don't know if this has been addressed before (my computer and web service are so slow I can't get anywhere with the archives), but I was wondering if anyone has come up with a good way of quieting the interior of our "funny wrinkled boats". Being a light sleeper, the constant splashing against the lapstrake has banished me to the shore for the night if I want to get any sleep. I don't know if actually lining the hull with some sort of insulation would be a good idea (maintenance problems?) or maybe some sort of sound absorbing panel would help. Any other light sleepers out there? Larry Yake M17 #200 ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: Modeelee@aol.com Subject: Re: M_Boats: M17 Centerboards Date: 06 Jan 2001 23:17:44 EST Howard My cb is the same as yours. Bronze cb sounds like a good idea if the cost is not prohibitive. Bob Eeg and I have hands on experience concerning the cb trunk "swelling" problem of the older boats, so the 1/2 inch thickness seems to be a good idea. I had to have my board machined so that we could fit it into the trunk. Expensive! Lee Martel M-17 #255 ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: Richard Lane Subject: Re: M_Boats: hull insulation / soundproofing Date: 07 Jan 2001 00:00:21 -0800 I used to find the sound rather soothing but my son snored so loud I took to wearing earplugs. Dick ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: AirEvacLen@aol.com Subject: Re: M_Boats: hull insulation / soundproofing Date: 07 Jan 2001 09:37:01 EST In a message dated 01/06/2001 8:40:32 PM US Mountain Standard Time, leyake@juno.com writes: << I was wondering if anyone has come up with a good way of quieting the interior of our "funny wrinkled boats". >> Larry A friend of mine suggested I try " pool weenies " around the perimeter of the hull when anchoring for the night. Find the ones with the hollow core so a line can be run through them and throw them overboard. They come in 5 or 6 foot lengths so 3 or 4 per side should do the trick...........Secure them to the toe rail when not in use and throw them in the cabin when trailering..........It's worth a try.......... : ) Lenny ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: Howard A Subject: Re: M_Boats: M17 Centerboards Date: 07 Jan 2001 09:01:57 -0600 Sounds like most of the older cast iron boards are the same as mine (M17 #278), so if a pattern gets made, it should fit the majority of the older boats. Nobody seems to know the relative weights of cast iron vs. bronze, but most seem to think the bronze is a little heavier. So going to a slightly thinner board may have the advantage of fitting better, plus coming out at the same weight. I suppose if we knew the displacement area of the board, and the relative weights of bronze vs. cast, we could calculate the size needed to weigh out the same. Now where are those engineers when you need one? If the new ones came out any heavier, I would have to beef up the stop pin that the tang of the cb rests upon, which I may do anyway. The last time I pulled mine out, it was bent and mangled..probably from dropping the board too fast....or from dropping back down after riding up and over something. It should be stronger. And I don't know if we ever heard if Bob still has the original specs for the older boards. But perhaps we don't need to worry about that until he gets a quote from the foundary. I'm fast running out of leads. The foundaries and artists that work in bronze around here use a "lost wax process" and can't even imagine anything this big. One guy thought he might be able to do it at a cost of a "few thousand dollars". Ouch.... Howard Modeelee@aol.com wrote: > Howard > My cb is the same as yours. Bronze cb sounds like a good idea if the cost is > not prohibitive. Bob Eeg and I have > hands on experience concerning the cb trunk "swelling" problem of the older > boats, so the 1/2 inch thickness > seems to be a good idea. I had to have my board machined so that we could > fit it into the trunk. Expensive! > Lee Martel > M-17 #255 ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: mikit Subject: Re: M_Boats: M17 Centerboards Date: 07 Jan 2001 07:51:28 -0800 Howard, Cast iron weights .260 lb/in(3) with bronze coming in at .318 lb/in (3). So i would calculate that a 17 0 lb. cast iron centerboard would weigh approximately 208 lbs.in bronze. I did a lot of research on this subject last year even planed out fabricating a pattern. I checked out my board in the lake last summer and it appeared to be in excellent shape so I set everything aside. I wanted to do as much of the process as possible myself but there is a lot involved in getting it right. A heat source between 1800 and 2200 degrees is a requirement as well as planning for shrinkage of aprox. 1/4" per foot. ( not the same shrinkage experienced while checking the board in a cold Oregon lake) Also found out Bronze looses its viscosity immediately when cooled so the mold also has to be heated to about 1400 deg. It's quit a complex process but an interesting . I would imaging to have one fabricated at a foundry would be well over a $1000 maybe closer to $2000 i don't know. India would be a good source for multiple orders, they export a lot of the worlds supply of bronze fittings and ingots. Mike M17 369 >Sounds like most of the older cast iron boards are the same as mine >(M17 #278), >so if a pattern gets made, it should fit the majority of the older boats. > >Nobody seems to know the relative weights of cast iron vs. bronze, >but most seem >to think the bronze is a little heavier. So going to a slightly thinner board >may have the advantage of fitting better, plus coming out at the >same weight. I >suppose if we knew the displacement area of the board, and the >relative weights >of bronze vs. cast, we could calculate the size needed to weigh out the same. >Now where are those engineers when you need one? > >If the new ones came out any heavier, I would have to beef up the >stop pin that >the tang of the cb rests upon, which I may do anyway. The last time I pulled >mine out, it was bent and mangled..probably from dropping the board too >fast....or from dropping back down after riding up and over >something. It should >be stronger. > >And I don't know if we ever heard if Bob still has the original specs for the >older boards. But perhaps we don't need to worry about that until he gets a >quote from the foundary. > >I'm fast running out of leads. The foundaries and artists that work in bronze >around here use a "lost wax process" and can't even imagine anything this big. >One guy thought he might be able to do it at a cost of a "few >thousand dollars". >Ouch.... > >Howard > >Modeelee@aol.com wrote: > >> Howard >> My cb is the same as yours. Bronze cb sounds like a good idea if >>the cost is >> not prohibitive. Bob Eeg and I have >> hands on experience concerning the cb trunk "swelling" problem of the older >> boats, so the 1/2 inch thickness >> seems to be a good idea. I had to have my board machined so that we could >> fit it into the trunk. Expensive! >> Lee Martel >> M-17 #255 ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: Shawn Boles Subject: RE: M_Boats: M17 Centerboards Date: 07 Jan 2001 12:42:50 -0800 Howard: Here are densities for Cast Iron and Marine Bronze from the Van Nostrand's Scientific encyclopedia. Marine Bronze 8.8 g/cc , Iron 7.78 g/cc. cheers- Shawn Boles Grey Mist (M17 #276 1978) -----Original Message----- Sent: Sunday, January 07, 2001 7:02 AM Sounds like most of the older cast iron boards are the same as mine (M17 #278), so if a pattern gets made, it should fit the majority of the older boats. Nobody seems to know the relative weights of cast iron vs. bronze, but most seem to think the bronze is a little heavier. So going to a slightly thinner board may have the advantage of fitting better, plus coming out at the same weight. I suppose if we knew the displacement area of the board, and the relative weights of bronze vs. cast, we could calculate the size needed to weigh out the same. Now where are those engineers when you need one? If the new ones came out any heavier, I would have to beef up the stop pin that the tang of the cb rests upon, which I may do anyway. The last time I pulled mine out, it was bent and mangled..probably from dropping the board too fast....or from dropping back down after riding up and over something. It should be stronger. And I don't know if we ever heard if Bob still has the original specs for the older boards. But perhaps we don't need to worry about that until he gets a quote from the foundary. I'm fast running out of leads. The foundaries and artists that work in bronze around here use a "lost wax process" and can't even imagine anything this big. One guy thought he might be able to do it at a cost of a "few thousand dollars". Ouch.... Howard Modeelee@aol.com wrote: > Howard > My cb is the same as yours. Bronze cb sounds like a good idea if the cost is > not prohibitive. Bob Eeg and I have > hands on experience concerning the cb trunk "swelling" problem of the older > boats, so the 1/2 inch thickness > seems to be a good idea. I had to have my board machined so that we could > fit it into the trunk. Expensive! > Lee Martel > M-17 #255 ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: leyake@juno.com Subject: Re: M_Boats: hull insulation / soundproofing Date: 07 Jan 2001 14:57:12 -0800 Lenny, Thanks for the idea on the swim noodles. It's worth a try. I've heard of a commercial product called SpashGuard or something like that, that works the same way. I'm also considering trying indoor/outdoor carpet with a thick rubber backing that I could just lay in there and then easily remove to dry-out, clean, or access the hull. I might also glue foam insulation to the bottom of the V-berth to block the noise from coming up through there. The main thing seems to be deadening that "echo-chamber" effect. The noise isn't as bad out in the cockpit and I've been able to sleep out there if the weather's good. Larry M17 #200 ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: Howard A Subject: Re: M_Boats: M17 Centerboards Date: 07 Jan 2001 18:13:48 -0600 Shawn Boles wrote: > Howard: > > Here are densities for Cast Iron and Marine Bronze from the Van Nostrand's > Scientific encyclopedia. > > Marine Bronze 8.8 g/cc , Iron 7.78 g/cc. > > cheers- > Shawn Boles > Grey Mist (M17 #276 1978) > Thanks Shawn and Mike. Somebody needs to double check the math, but my calculations, to keep the same weight requires a board width of .663 inches. The closest common measurement to that would be 5/8", which comes in at .625". So I'm guessing if it gets left at 3/4", it would weigh about 190 #'s, or drop it to 5/8" where it would weigh about 160 #'s. For what it's worth, one of my contacts tells me the cost of Marine Bronze is about $1.80 per pound wholesale, and the foundary will mark it up from there...sometimes by a lot. So we are starting off with a wholesale cost of nearly $300 for materials alone.....this could get ugly. When Bob says "boats cost by the pound" he isn't kidding. Howard ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: Bob Subject: M_Boats: The 23 Pocket Cruiser update Date: 07 Jan 2001 16:45:26 -0800 Tod The 27 has the same noise and it is music, after you get used to it. :-) Hows the new rudder project? Get started yet.? Jerry and I worked all last week on the 23 and even worked until 2 on saturday. (ok.....I had to give him some beer on saturday in the afternoon, hehehe) Shes looking real sweet and taking on a certain personality. So far we have finished the foredeck (primed with sanding primer) and most of the cockpit details...(not primered yet) The cockpit is a very comfortable area with enough room to sleep and good angles for reclining while sailing. Dual 1.5 inch cockpit drains will keep her dry. A great bridge-deck and a nice high lip before descending into the cabin. The windshield on the 'house' has been installed in place, (thats the foreward part of the cabin top) and the aft bulkhead that defines the aft part of the house is in place. We have the side-decks finished (looks like close to 12 inches of walkway on each side going forward, which is plenty), next is the sides of the deckhouse and the roof. (cabin top). ` We've had some visitors stopping by to pick up parts or see one of the Montgomery 15 or 17's we have in stock and they become glued to the 23. One guy spent most of the afternoon just sitting in her getting covered with sawdust while Jerry was sanding away. (we don't stop for anyone, ha! ha!). He was lamenting that he had to go back to work selling insurance in San Bernadino while we got to stay and have fun building this boat. *smile* Jerry and I appreciated everyones input on this 23 project. Lots of great ideas and concepts. Thanks again and if anyone has any other ideas we would be happy to brainstorm them........ Things we have left are the coach roof and the remaining structure for the main cabin, main hatch detail and the hatch, the scuddle hatch on the foredeck, (the hatch-way is finished but we need to make the actual hatch) the companion way area, lots of detailing of the non-skid areas (very time consuming) more locker lids, many interior changes, *a flange on the cabin top to accept a dodger and bimini* is an important goal. A proper dodger and bimini is really a necessity on a cruising boat, especially in sun country. (or rain for that matter). Also working out the details for the Cutter rig and winch and hardware locations. Take care Bob Nor'Sea htmills@bright.net wrote: > noise? That's not noise, it's MUSIC! > > ;-) > > Tod > > > > > ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: LBarkhuff@cs.com Subject: Re: M_Boats: The 23 Pocket Cruiser update Date: 07 Jan 2001 21:02:30 EST Bob, can the 23 forward hatch be one of the replaceable type, I don't know a model name, pick a fancy one, instead of the old type. The way the old one is, one of the CarryOn type AC units won't sit there unless you put it on a block of styrofoam. Looks bad and works bad....Larry ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: "Roberta & Mark Dvorscak" Subject: Re: M_Boats: hull insulation / soundproofing Date: 07 Jan 2001 19:51:55 -0800 ----- Original Message ----- > noise? That's not noise, it's MUSIC! > > ;-) > > Tod > My thoughts exactly, Tod! Mark ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: Sandyal55@aol.com Subject: Re: M_Boats: hull insulation / soundproofing Date: 07 Jan 2001 23:34:05 EST --part1_84.fb94219.278a9d3d_boundary Content-Type: text/plain; charset="US-ASCII" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit I turn the music off when I sleep. I'm lenny's sleepless friend. Sandy --part1_84.fb94219.278a9d3d_boundary Content-Type: text/html; charset="US-ASCII" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit I turn the music off when I sleep. I'm lenny's sleepless friend.
Sandy --part1_84.fb94219.278a9d3d_boundary-- ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: Bob Subject: Re: M_Boats: The 23 Pocket Cruiser update Date: 08 Jan 2001 06:03:40 -0800 Larry The forward hatch will accept a carry-on AC unit. The hatch is slightly under 28 inches square. Its a "scuddle" type hatch. Bob LBarkhuff@cs.com wrote: > Bob, can the 23 forward hatch be one of the replaceable type, I don't > know a model name, pick a fancy one, instead of the old type. The way the > old one is, one of the CarryOn type AC units won't sit there unless you put > it on a block of styrofoam. Looks bad and works bad....Larry > > > > ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: Jslubliner@aol.com Subject: Re: M_Boats: Hull Speed Date: 08 Jan 2001 10:09:50 EST --part1_8d.d0c847.278b323e_boundary Content-Type: text/plain; charset="US-ASCII" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Connie - when is Chesapeake meeting? I will be there in August (sans boat) and would love to check in with you folks. Arriving Easton, MD end of July, wedding in Richmond on 4 August then no plans. Traveling by 5t wheel. If this fits your gathering, would enjoy meeting and talking to you people. thx, Jslubliner@aol.com John Lubliner "Coyote: - M17FD #69 --part1_8d.d0c847.278b323e_boundary Content-Type: text/html; charset="US-ASCII" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Connie - when is Chesapeake meeting? I will be there in August (sans boat)
and would love to check in with you folks. Arriving Easton, MD end of July,
wedding in Richmond on 4 August then no plans. Traveling by 5t wheel.

If this fits your gathering, would enjoy meeting and talking to you people.

thx,

Jslubliner@aol.com

John Lubliner
"Coyote: - M17FD #69 --part1_8d.d0c847.278b323e_boundary-- ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: AirEvacLen@aol.com Subject: Re: M_Boats: The 23 Pocket Cruiser update Date: 08 Jan 2001 18:32:31 EST In a message dated 01/07/2001 5:44:54 PM US Mountain Standard Time, Bobeeg@earthlink.net writes: << A proper dodger and bimini is really a necessity on a cruising boat, especially in sun country. (or rain for that matter). Also working out the details for the Cutter rig and winch and hardware locations. >> Bob Just wondering..........Is the new 23 going to have mid-boom sheeting? I'd like a bimini on my 23 but between the mainsheet and the backstay, I'd get more shade with a diaper on my head.........hehehe. Lenny ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: AirEvacLen@aol.com Subject: Re: M_Boats: hull insulation / soundproofing Date: 08 Jan 2001 18:47:50 EST In a message dated 01/07/2001 9:34:55 PM US Mountain Standard Time, Sandyal55@aol.com writes: << I turn the music off when I sleep. I'm lenny's sleepless friend. Sandy >> Yeah,,,,,,,,hehehe,,,,,,,,,,,You should have seen the bags under his eyes from listening to music all night long..........I'm not quite sure how he heard it over my snoring though...........hehehehe Lenny ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: "Gary M. Hyde" Subject: Re: M_Boats: The 23 Pocket Cruiser update Date: 08 Jan 2001 16:04:35 -0800 Bob: You're getting some of us more and more excited about the M23. When do we get pictures on the web? --Gary M15 #235 "Vanilla" N24 #133 "Sailebration" Pullman, WA gmhyde@wsu.edu > From: AirEvacLen@aol.com > Reply-To: montgomery_boats@lists.xmission.com > Date: Mon, 8 Jan 2001 18:32:31 EST > To: montgomery_boats@lists.xmission.com > Subject: Re: M_Boats: The 23 Pocket Cruiser update > > In a message dated 01/07/2001 5:44:54 PM US Mountain Standard Time, > Bobeeg@earthlink.net writes: > > << A proper > dodger and bimini is really a necessity on a cruising boat, especially > in sun country. (or > rain for that matter). Also working out the details for the Cutter rig > and winch and hardware > locations. >>> > > Bob > Just wondering..........Is the new 23 going to have mid-boom sheeting? > I'd like a bimini on my 23 but between the mainsheet and the backstay, I'd > get more shade with a diaper on my head.........hehehe. > > Lenny > ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: AirEvacLen@aol.com Subject: Re: M_Boats: The 23 Pocket Cruiser update Date: 08 Jan 2001 19:07:13 EST In a message dated 01/08/2001 5:05:29 PM US Mountain Standard Time, gmhyde@wsu.edu writes: << Bob: You're getting some of us more and more excited about the M23. When do we get pictures on the web? --Gary >> Yeah................. Lenny ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: Conbert H Benneck Subject: Re: M_Boats: Hull Speed Date: 08 Jan 2001 19:36:46 -0500 John, As I recall - I haven't been there myself - the Chesapeake rendezvous is about mid to latter June. There have been about five or six M15s and M17s that have taken part. Hang on, and the man that organized the meeting will probably reply to you directly., with more details and tentative plans for this year's meeting. Connie ________________________________________________________________ GET INTERNET ACCESS FROM JUNO! Juno offers FREE or PREMIUM Internet access for less! Join Juno today! For your FREE software, visit: http://dl.www.juno.com/get/tagj. ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: "Bill Riker" Subject: RE: M_Boats: Hull Speed Date: 08 Jan 2001 21:08:23 -0500 Yeah, Doug, Have you thought about a date this year? I'd prefer the early/middle part of June, since my daughter (another one) is getting married on June 23 in Charlottesville. Bill Riker M-15 #184 Storm Petrel -----Original Message----- [mailto:owner-montgomery_boats@lists.xmission.com]On Behalf Of Conbert H Benneck Sent: January 08, 2001 7:37 PM John, As I recall - I haven't been there myself - the Chesapeake rendezvous is about mid to latter June. There have been about five or six M15s and M17s that have taken part. Hang on, and the man that organized the meeting will probably reply to you directly., with more details and tentative plans for this year's meeting. Connie ________________________________________________________________ GET INTERNET ACCESS FROM JUNO! Juno offers FREE or PREMIUM Internet access for less! Join Juno today! For your FREE software, visit: http://dl.www.juno.com/get/tagj. ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: Doug Kelch Subject: Re: M_Boats: Hull Speed Date: 08 Jan 2001 22:02:11 -0500 --------------F98611C395AE429DD6A2E069 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit John, The original target for the Chesapeake Rondevouz was the sweet spot between the somewhat unpredictable spring weather and the hot summer doldrums. This works out to the second week in June per the old Chessi salts :) I will make a posting for the maximum attendance and see what date evolves. I will offer the free use of my M15 to Jerry again this year to see If we can lure him to the right coast for awhile. If we keep in touch before you come out we can always get together for a sail. I would even let you use my M15 for equal time on your M17 (I would probably never use it but thats ok). My daughter lives in Phoenix, where are you? Thanks Doug Jslubliner@aol.com wrote: > Connie - when is Chesapeake meeting? I will be there in August (sans > boat) > and would love to check in with you folks. Arriving Easton, MD end of > July, > wedding in Richmond on 4 August then no plans. Traveling by 5t wheel. > > If this fits your gathering, would enjoy meeting and talking to you > people. > > thx, > > Jslubliner@aol.com > > John Lubliner > "Coyote: - M17FD #69 --------------F98611C395AE429DD6A2E069 Content-Type: text/html; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit John,

    The original target for the Chesapeake Rondevouz was the sweet spot between the somewhat unpredictable spring weather and the hot summer doldrums.  This works out to the second week in June per the old Chessi salts :)
    I will make a posting for the maximum attendance and see what date evolves. I will offer the free use of my M15 to Jerry again this year to see If we can lure him to the right coast for awhile.
    If we keep in touch before you come out we can always get together for a sail.  I would even let you use my M15 for equal time on your M17 (I would probably never use it but thats ok). My daughter lives in Phoenix, where are you?
 
Thanks

Doug
 

Jslubliner@aol.com wrote:

Connie - when is Chesapeake meeting? I will be there in August (sans boat)
and would love to check in with you folks. Arriving Easton, MD end of July,
wedding in Richmond on 4 August then no plans. Traveling by 5t wheel.

If this fits your gathering, would enjoy meeting and talking to you people.

thx,

Jslubliner@aol.com

John Lubliner
"Coyote: - M17FD #69

--------------F98611C395AE429DD6A2E069-- ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: Doug Kelch Subject: M_Boats: Dates - Chesapeake Rondevous 2001 Date: 08 Jan 2001 22:09:42 -0500 Think Spring! Jerry, I will offer you the free use of my M15 for the Chesapeake Rondevouz this year. You pick any week of the first three in June and we can work from there. Anyone else who wants to come please send me your preffered dates so we can schedule it for the best turn out. We do usually try for the 2nd week in June to hit the sweet spot between spring and summer but are flexible. Thanks Doug Kelch "Seas the Day" M15 #310 "Moon Shadow" CD25 dkelch@cox.rr.com ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: Bob Subject: Re: M_Boats: The 23 Pocket Cruiser update Date: 08 Jan 2001 19:51:22 -0800 Lenny We are planning to sheet off the end of the boom. (Like the Nor'Sea 27), I want the cockpit to be clear and open. There will still be room for a vang and preventer (to the Genny track when boomed out for downwind tradewind conditions) and another advantage is nothing interferes with the dodger and/or bimini top. You should be able to sail with the bimini up. On a hot day shade is really nice. Offshore, protection from spray, sun and wind really adds to the enjoyment of a cruise. (a well rested crew is also safer). Jerry says hi to all. He will be home for 2 days this weekend.. Bob Nor'Sea AirEvacLen@aol.com wrote: > In a message dated 01/07/2001 5:44:54 PM US Mountain Standard Time, > Bobeeg@earthlink.net writes: > > << A proper > dodger and bimini is really a necessity on a cruising boat, especially > in sun country. (or > rain for that matter). Also working out the details for the Cutter rig > and winch and hardware > locations. > >> > > Bob > Just wondering..........Is the new 23 going to have mid-boom sheeting? > I'd like a bimini on my 23 but between the mainsheet and the backstay, I'd > get more shade with a diaper on my head.........hehehe. > > Lenny > > > > ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: AirEvacLen@aol.com Subject: Re: M_Boats: The 23 Pocket Cruiser update Date: 09 Jan 2001 08:58:47 EST In a message dated 01/08/2001 8:51:01 PM US Mountain Standard Time, Bobeeg@earthlink.net writes: << Lenny We are planning to sheet off the end of the boom. (Like the Nor'Sea 27), I want the cockpit to be clear and open. >> Bob That sounds like an ideal arraingement..........Are you going to use track on the transom or pad eyes and pulleys? Not too many NorSea 27's around these parts to look at. ( heheeh ) Inquiring minds want to know.............lol. Thanks, Lenny ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: Jslubliner@aol.com Subject: Re: M_Boats: Hull Speed Date: 09 Jan 2001 10:18:10 EST --part1_71.9b8e860.278c85b2_boundary Content-Type: text/plain; charset="US-ASCII" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Doug - There's a flush-deck 17 in Tucson waiting your visit. Thanks for the info, keep us posted on dates. Thanks, John --part1_71.9b8e860.278c85b2_boundary Content-Type: text/html; charset="US-ASCII" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Doug -

There's a flush-deck 17 in Tucson waiting your visit. Thanks for the info,
keep us posted on dates.

Thanks,

John --part1_71.9b8e860.278c85b2_boundary-- ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: "Morris, Giles" Subject: RE: M_Boats: Dates - Chesapeake Rondevous 2001 Date: 09 Jan 2001 10:13:02 -0600 >Anyone else who wants to come Still hoping to get to a Rendezvous. No particular date preference. Where are you thinking of? Giles Morris Arlington VA Vancouver 25 #002 "Dolphin" Montgomery 15 #236 "Umiaq" Sundry kayaks ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: AirEvacLen@aol.com Subject: Re: M_Boats: Hull Speed Date: 09 Jan 2001 11:23:19 EST In a message dated 01/09/2001 8:22:22 AM US Mountain Standard Time, Jslubliner@aol.com writes: << Doug - There's a flush-deck 17 in Tucson waiting your visit. Thanks for the info, keep us posted on dates. Thanks, John >> Is that thing still hanging around?...............lol Lenny ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: DDAYSTROM@aol.com Subject: Re: M_Boats: Dates - Chesapeake Rondevous 2001 Date: 09 Jan 2001 13:14:43 EST Hi Doug, I recently bought a used M17 and would like to join the group on the rondevous. Right now any week in June is good for me. Thanks al williams "Horizon" M17 #329 ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: "Thomas Wilkinson" Subject: M_Boats: M23 Date: 09 Jan 2001 10:36:40 -0800 This is a multi-part message in MIME format. ------=_NextPart_000_0034_01C07A28.0D548FA0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Bob, Here is another unsolicited idea about the M?23. Even though a bronze = centerboard is sturdy, tough, and very "nautical", it is also expensive = and heavy. How about an aluminum centerboard? It would be less expensive, easier to = manufacture, and lighter therefore less stress on the pivoting pin, the = lifting mechanism, and the poor guy trying to raise or lower the board. = Admittedly it is less "sexy" than bronze. As you probably know, the = Allied Seabreeze had a bronze centerboard for the first 9 years of = production then changed to an aluminum board. I think the weight was cut = almost in half. Just a thought. Tom M17 Obsessus =20 ------=_NextPart_000_0034_01C07A28.0D548FA0 Content-Type: text/html; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable
Bob,
Here is another unsolicited idea about = the=20 M?23.  Even though a bronze centerboard is sturdy, tough, and very=20 "nautical", it is also expensive and heavy.
How about an aluminum centerboard? It = would be less=20 expensive, easier to manufacture, and lighter therefore less stress on = the=20 pivoting pin, the lifting mechanism, and the poor guy trying to raise or = lower=20 the board.  Admittedly it is less "sexy" than bronze.  As you = probably=20 know, the Allied Seabreeze had a bronze centerboard for the first 9 = years of=20 production then changed to an aluminum board. I think the weight was cut = almost=20 in half.
Just a thought.
Tom
M17 Obsessus
  
------=_NextPart_000_0034_01C07A28.0D548FA0-- ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: Richard Lane Subject: Re: M_Boats: The 23 Pocket Cruiser update Date: 09 Jan 2001 10:35:55 -0800 Bob, I think a rigid vang (such as I fitted on Sadhana) would be essential with boom end sheeting and a bimini, it makes reefing and sail shaping a breeze. The only drawback is that it doesn't allow for a windward sheeting traveler. Regards, Dick AirEvacLen@aol.com wrote: > In a message dated 01/08/2001 8:51:01 PM US Mountain Standard Time, > Bobeeg@earthlink.net writes: > > << Lenny > We are planning to sheet off the end of the boom. (Like the Nor'Sea 27), > I want the cockpit to be clear and open. >> > > Bob > That sounds like an ideal arraingement..........Are you going to use > track on the transom or pad eyes and pulleys? Not too many NorSea 27's > around these parts to look at. ( heheeh ) Inquiring minds want to > know.............lol. > > Thanks, > > Lenny ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: Jslubliner@aol.com Subject: Re: M_Boats: Hull Speed Date: 09 Jan 2001 16:42:33 EST --part1_80.54b133d.278cdfc9_boundary Content-Type: text/plain; charset="US-ASCII" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Lenny - Sure, you bet. Sailed Coyote in Mission Bay, San Diego just this last week. Really a kick to do a lengthy spinnaker run while drinking a brew in your shirtsleeves in January. Where are you, Lenny? Thinking of the AYC Birthday regatta at Lake Pleasant in a couple of weeks, but boat is still in San Diego, so might be a logistics issue getting there in time. Are you a Lake Pleasant devotee? John in Tucson Coyote M17FD #69 --part1_80.54b133d.278cdfc9_boundary Content-Type: text/html; charset="US-ASCII" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Lenny -

Sure, you bet. Sailed Coyote in Mission Bay, San Diego just this last week.
Really a kick to do a lengthy spinnaker run while drinking a brew in your
shirtsleeves in January.

Where are you, Lenny? Thinking of the AYC Birthday regatta at Lake Pleasant
in a couple of weeks, but boat is still in San Diego, so might be a logistics
issue getting there in time. Are you a Lake Pleasant devotee?

John in Tucson
Coyote M17FD #69 --part1_80.54b133d.278cdfc9_boundary-- ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: Doug Kelch Subject: Re: M_Boats: Dates - Chesapeake Rondevous 2001 Date: 09 Jan 2001 20:07:05 -0500 Congratulations on the new, used boat! Where do you keep her? I will add you to the distribution list for the trip. I still offer a video copy of the 1999 rondevouz for the cost of a tape and shipping. (around $4 - 5$) I think you would enjoy it but don't take the part about the new guy on the cruise being required to supply Captain Morgan's rum for the week to seriously :) Welcome to the truly great world of cruising the Chesapeak on an excellent boat! Doug Kelch DDAYSTROM@aol.com wrote: > Hi Doug, > > I recently bought a used M17 and would like to join the group on the > rondevous. Right now any week in June is good for me. > > Thanks > > al williams > "Horizon" M17 #329 ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: Doug Kelch Subject: Re: M_Boats: Dates - Chesapeake Rondevous 2001 Date: 09 Jan 2001 20:19:16 -0500 The traditional date is the second week in June, June 9th this year. After some feedback from the M list we will set a date in the first three weeks of June. Location of the cruise is the subject of prime winter day dreaming. We generally like to alternate between remote anchorages and place with a restaurant and shower without working too hard between them. We are thinking of the Chester river area but it may be too far north to lure the M23 out of the Potomack river. The Choptank and Little Choptank also look very interesting. Most years we do a loop but one year we did the Potomack with a pick up vehicle at the far end. Ideas are welcome. "Morris, Giles" wrote: > >Anyone else who wants to come > > Still hoping to get to a Rendezvous. No particular date preference. Where > are you thinking of? > > Giles Morris > Arlington VA > Vancouver 25 #002 "Dolphin" > Montgomery 15 #236 "Umiaq" > Sundry kayaks ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: rc2222@postoffice.pacbell.net Subject: M_Boats: OBSESSUS Date: 09 Jan 2001 17:10:05 -0800 Hi Tom: If you purchase one of the new 23's I would appreciate knowing when and if Obsessus comes up for sale. Thank's Rich Cottrell ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: Conbert H Benneck Subject: Re: M_Boats: Dates - Chesapeake Rondevous 2001 Date: 09 Jan 2001 20:24:46 -0500 Doug, Sounds like a good time for us. As retirees, we - despite some constraints on our times - could make any of the weeks you suggest. So, from our point of view, pick a date, and we'll try and be there with our M15. Connie & Katrina M15 LEPPO Glastonbury, CT ________________________________________________________________ GET INTERNET ACCESS FROM JUNO! Juno offers FREE or PREMIUM Internet access for less! Join Juno today! For your FREE software, visit: http://dl.www.juno.com/get/tagj. ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: Conbert H Benneck Subject: Re: M_Boats: Hull Speed Date: 09 Jan 2001 20:31:18 -0500 John, You really know how to rub it in for us East Coasters. At the moment I've dug out the driveway twice in four days: the M15 is asleep under it's tarp off the driveway; and as I came across the Connecticut River this afternoon it was half closed with ice floes. Spinnaker run, in shirt sleeves drinking a brew - sound great, but not on our end; and not at this time of the year! Connie Glastonbury, CT 25 degrees and 8 inches of snow! ________________________________________________________________ GET INTERNET ACCESS FROM JUNO! Juno offers FREE or PREMIUM Internet access for less! Join Juno today! For your FREE software, visit: http://dl.www.juno.com/get/tagj. ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: Conbert H Benneck Subject: Re: M_Boats: Dates - Chesapeake Rondevous 2001 Date: 09 Jan 2001 20:41:35 -0500 Doug, Now that LEPPO is in proper shape, as is the trailer, please put us on your distribution list for info about an M rendezvous in June. This year we'll plan on being there. My email address is : chbenneck@juno.com We were in Barbados in December, and sampled some Mount Gay rum, but weren't able to empty the ships water tanks and refill with Mount Gay, but we'll have a solution for that problem when we see you on the Chesapeake. Question: Do you sleep aboard or ashore while enroute? Connie ________________________________________________________________ GET INTERNET ACCESS FROM JUNO! Juno offers FREE or PREMIUM Internet access for less! Join Juno today! For your FREE software, visit: http://dl.www.juno.com/get/tagj. ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: "Bill Riker" Subject: RE: M_Boats: Dates - Chesapeake Rondevous 2001 Date: 09 Jan 2001 19:49:45 -0500 Doug, Second week is fine with me, as is the first. The third runs up against Wendy's wedding in C-ville, but I could probably drag the boat to the wedding. What a conversation piece! Bill Riker M-15 #184 Storm Petrel -----Original Message----- [mailto:owner-montgomery_boats@lists.xmission.com]On Behalf Of Doug Kelch Sent: January 08, 2001 10:10 PM Think Spring! Jerry, I will offer you the free use of my M15 for the Chesapeake Rondevouz this year. You pick any week of the first three in June and we can work from there. Anyone else who wants to come please send me your preffered dates so we can schedule it for the best turn out. We do usually try for the 2nd week in June to hit the sweet spot between spring and summer but are flexible. Thanks Doug Kelch "Seas the Day" M15 #310 "Moon Shadow" CD25 dkelch@cox.rr.com ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: "Bill Riker" Subject: RE: M_Boats: Dates - Chesapeake Rondevous 2001 Date: 09 Jan 2001 21:37:33 -0500 Glad you can make it this year, Connie. The two years I've done the Rondezvous, we've always slept on board listening to the tinkling of the wrinkled hull in the moonlight. .. he...he..he... Actually, I spent 16 nights aboard last summer, between the rondezvous and and weekends in Sandusky and at the islands. Good thing I'm not 6' tall, it could get a bit tiresome! Bill Riker wriker@mindspring.com 412-341-7198 -----Original Message----- [mailto:owner-montgomery_boats@lists.xmission.com]On Behalf Of Conbert H Benneck Sent: January 09, 2001 8:42 PM Doug, Now that LEPPO is in proper shape, as is the trailer, please put us on your distribution list for info about an M rendezvous in June. This year we'll plan on being there. My email address is : chbenneck@juno.com We were in Barbados in December, and sampled some Mount Gay rum, but weren't able to empty the ships water tanks and refill with Mount Gay, but we'll have a solution for that problem when we see you on the Chesapeake. Question: Do you sleep aboard or ashore while enroute? Connie ________________________________________________________________ GET INTERNET ACCESS FROM JUNO! Juno offers FREE or PREMIUM Internet access for less! Join Juno today! For your FREE software, visit: http://dl.www.juno.com/get/tagj. ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: AirEvacLen@aol.com Subject: Re: M_Boats: Hull Speed Date: 09 Jan 2001 21:44:06 EST In a message dated 01/09/2001 7:28:22 PM US Mountain Standard Time, chbenneck@juno.com writes: << Spinnaker run, in shirt sleeves drinking a brew - sound great, but not on our end; and not at this time of the year! Connie Glastonbury, CT 25 degrees and 8 inches of snow! >> B-r-r-r-r-r...............And I'm bummed out 'cause it's raining in Arizona. Lenny ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: Howard A Subject: Re: M_Boats: Dates - Chesapeake Rondevous 2001 Date: 09 Jan 2001 20:48:24 -0600 > Speaking of which......I'm open to suggestions as to the > ideal tow vehicle for a 17 capable of big hills and longer > trips. Tod: I'm currently watching a couple of older Suburbans. We are on the south end of heavy salt country, and most of the older one's don't have too much rust. I have my eye on an ugly brown one, with new engine and all new stuff under the hood. They are asking $3,000. I would prefer a 3/4 ton with tow package. I too would like to make the trip east this year. I missed it by one week last year. But I have a 25th wedding anniversary on June 19. Missing that doesn't appear to be negotiable, and my offer to take her sailing on the Chesapeake didn't go over. Her idea of a "cruise" apparently involves some outfit called "Princess" or "Norwegian". So for me to make it will require the early part of June. Howard ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: Saltm17@aol.com Subject: Re: M_Boats: Hull Speed Date: 09 Jan 2001 23:05:35 EST Hey, make that the NorEasters...I was sailing this weekend here in SC! John M17 #372 ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: DDAYSTROM@aol.com Subject: Re: M_Boats: Dates - Chesapeake Rondevous 2001 Date: 09 Jan 2001 23:59:26 EST Thanks! A friend of mine offered to let me keep the boat at his house since it won't fit in my garage. I live in Olney, MD, he lives about 15mins away. In the spring I may keep her on the trailer at Holiday Hill Marina (Rhode River) located in Mayo, MD. -al williams << Congratulations on the new, used boat! Where do you keep her? Doug Kelch >> ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: "Morris, Giles" Subject: RE: M_Boats: Dates - Chesapeake Rondevous 2001 Date: 10 Jan 2001 09:59:54 -0600 >The Choptank and Little Choptank also look very interesting Sure do... Oxford, Cambridge, Tilghman Island, La Trappe Creek, St Michaels (via Broad Creek) Giles ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: Chapdw@aol.com Subject: Re: M_Boats: Dates - Chesapeake Rondevous 2001 Date: 10 Jan 2001 17:24:49 EST Doug, I can make anytime early June up to the 13th. After that, I could make anything after the 16th. How about starting Sat/Sun, 2/3June? The Choptank/Little Choptank sound great! Lots of diversions along the way as Giles stated. I'm sure I could persuade the M23 from the Potomac and head North for it! Are you thinking of using Solomon's as the base again? Dennis Chapman M23 #002 "Walkabout" In a message dated Tue, 9 Jan 2001 8:26:10 PM Eastern Standard Time, Doug Kelch writes: << The traditional date is the second week in June, June 9th this year. After some feedback from the M list we will set a date in the first three weeks of June. Location of the cruise is the subject of prime winter day dreaming. We generally like to alternate between remote anchorages and place with a restaurant and shower without working too hard between them. We are thinking of the Chester river area but it may be too far north to lure the M23 out of the Potomack river. The Choptank and Little Choptank also look very interesting. Most years we do a loop but one year we did the Potomack with a pick up vehicle at the far end. Ideas are welcome. "Morris, Giles" wrote: > >Anyone else who wants to come > > Still hoping to get to a Rendezvous. No particular date preference. Where > are you thinking of? > > Giles Morris > Arlington VA > Vancouver 25 #002 "Dolphin" > Montgomery 15 #236 "Umiaq" > Sundry kayaks >> ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: Conbert H Benneck Subject: Re: M_Boats: Dates - Chesapeake Rondevous 2001 Date: 10 Jan 2001 20:21:24 -0500 Bill, My old cruising gang - the Goose Island Cruising Club - were mad as could be when the daughter of one of our group picked a weekend in June to get married. How could she do that to sailors? ...and she should know better having grown up on board. Summer weekends are for sailing, not for standing around in churches and wedding receptions! It took quite awhile till she was forgiven! ....and what's wrong with towing the M15 to the wedding? Connie ________________________________________________________________ GET INTERNET ACCESS FROM JUNO! Juno offers FREE or PREMIUM Internet access for less! Join Juno today! For your FREE software, visit: http://dl.www.juno.com/get/tagj. ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: Chapdw@aol.com Subject: Re: M_Boats: CBR itinerary Date: 10 Jan 2001 20:41:17 EST --part1_fd.ce3593.278e693d_boundary Content-Type: text/plain; charset="US-ASCII" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Hey Tod, I will be coming from Pt Lookout on my way out of the Potomac and you are more than welcome to join up! If you want to sail even further, you could launch further up the Potomac where I live, about 14 miles up from Pt Lookout. Yes, you can access St Michael's from the Choptank side of the peninsula by going up Broad Creek. According to my Cruising guide, there is a bulkhead where one could tie up for a short time. Looks like it is just a couple of blocks to the St. Michael's waterfront from there. Dennis M23 #002 "Walkabout" --part1_fd.ce3593.278e693d_boundary Content-Type: text/html; charset="US-ASCII" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Hey Tod,

I will be coming from Pt Lookout on my way out of the Potomac and you are
more than welcome to join up! If you want to sail even further, you could
launch further up the Potomac where I live, about 14 miles up from Pt Lookout.

Yes, you can access St Michael's from the Choptank side of the peninsula by
going up Broad Creek. According to my Cruising guide, there is a bulkhead
where one could tie up for a short time. Looks like it is just a couple of
blocks to the St. Michael's waterfront from there.

Dennis
M23 #002 "Walkabout" --part1_fd.ce3593.278e693d_boundary-- ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: LBarkhuff@cs.com Subject: M_Boats: 23 cockpit Date: 10 Jan 2001 21:01:43 EST Bob, that small cave under the cockpit of the 23 will hold most stuff in my house.......if I could get in there. Will the floor of the new cockpit have a removable cover like the Dana 24 or the Flicka (I think) They were for engine access perhaps, but it sure would be neat to be able to get in there. Would it be possible to do that to an old cockpit? Larry ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: LBarkhuff@cs.com Subject: Re: M_Boats: CBR itinerary Date: 10 Jan 2001 21:05:37 EST Dennis, did you ever fix up the mast raising wires for the boat? Larry ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: Chapdw@aol.com Subject: Re: M_Boats: CBR itinerary Date: 10 Jan 2001 21:06:23 EST --part1_c1.a9176fb.278e6f1f_boundary Content-Type: text/plain; charset="US-ASCII" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Tod, There is a ramp at Cedar Cove Marina here on Herring Creek, on the Maryland side of the Potomac, which is where I live. I think the ramp charge is around $5-$8. you could keep the truck/trailer at my house to avoid any other fees. If anyone else is considering the Potomac as a starting point, I've got room for keeping tow vehicles/trailers and a dock to tie up the boats as long as the number doesn't exceed 10-15! Dennis M23 #002 "Walkabout" --part1_c1.a9176fb.278e6f1f_boundary Content-Type: text/html; charset="US-ASCII" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Tod,

There is a ramp at Cedar Cove Marina here on Herring Creek, on the Maryland
side of the Potomac, which is where I live. I think the ramp charge is around
$5-$8. you could keep the truck/trailer at my house to avoid any other fees.

If anyone else is considering the Potomac as a starting point, I've got room
for keeping tow vehicles/trailers and a dock to tie up the boats as long as
the number doesn't exceed 10-15!

Dennis
M23 #002 "Walkabout"   --part1_c1.a9176fb.278e6f1f_boundary-- ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: AirEvacLen@aol.com Subject: Re: M_Boats: 23 cockpit Date: 10 Jan 2001 22:00:30 EST In a message dated 01/10/2001 7:02:09 PM US Mountain Standard Time, LBarkhuff@cs.com writes: << Would it be possible to do that to an old cockpit? Larry >> I'm with ya Larry............... Lenny ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: Dale Williams Subject: M_Boats: Stictly Sail Chicago Date: 10 Jan 2001 21:03:38 -0600 I will not be able to attend Strictly Sail Chicago as I had planned. I have a two day admittance ticket and would hate to have it go unused. If anyone wants it, email me and I will mail it out. Dale M15 "Sophie Mae" ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: Doug Kelch Subject: Re: M_Boats: Dates - Chesapeake Rondevous 2001 Date: 11 Jan 2001 08:10:26 -0500 Hi Connie, I took another look at the Choptank charts after Giles's suggestion and it does look like an area that can satisfy the most demanding cruisers. We do like our comfort. The 4 locations Giles mention are within a 1/2 day sail of the center of the Choptank area and they all have decent to excellent land based accomodations with nearby anchorages and marinas. The cruise is preety unstructured as we go where the wind blows. We gennerally raft up in late afternoon to early evening, swim, BS, decide on on board dinner or a restaruant, marina or what ever. If some want to anchor out, others want the marina we will keep part of the raft up and use a boat or two as the ferry and everyone can do what they want. The nice aspect of the Choptank is there are great nooks and crannies to explore between destinations and I you want the larger open water and longer sails you can be in the Bay reasonably quick. The Choptank is looking preety good! Conbert H Benneck wrote: > Doug, > > Now that LEPPO is in proper shape, as is the trailer, please put us on > your distribution list for info about an M rendezvous in June. This year > we'll plan on being there. > > My email address is : chbenneck@juno.com > > We were in Barbados in December, and sampled some Mount Gay rum, but > weren't able to empty the ships water tanks and refill with Mount Gay, > but we'll have a solution for that problem when we see you on the > Chesapeake. > > Question: Do you sleep aboard or ashore while enroute? > > Connie > ________________________________________________________________ > GET INTERNET ACCESS FROM JUNO! > Juno offers FREE or PREMIUM Internet access for less! > Join Juno today! For your FREE software, visit: > http://dl.www.juno.com/get/tagj. ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: TOMMYVAL@aol.com Subject: Re: M_Boats: CBR itinerary Date: 11 Jan 2001 08:24:43 EST Tod, Its possible to launch from solomons island and u would have a 20-25 mile run up to the Chptank area. Dennis will use solomons as a stop off point coming up from the Potomac, I keep my boat in solomons as does Greg Hann. Just something to think about. Look forward to seeing this year. Gary ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: Mike Rupp Subject: Re: M_Boats: 23 cockpit Date: 11 Jan 2001 08:13:36 -0700 Larry- Some company sells marine storage containers that open from the top- expressly for installation into bulkheads or floors on boats- check out West Marine, Shoreway, one of those outfits have them. Some are quite large and might fit into the floor of the cockpit. They're all watertight- I'd just check to see if they can also take the weight of a person standing on them. I suppose if the lid is strong enough, it might work. I'd also shim up anyspace under it, if it didn't rest right on the hull below. Thought about doing this on my boat too. Mike LBarkhuff@cs.com wrote: > Bob, that small cave under the cockpit of the 23 will hold most stuff > in my house.......if I could get in there. > > Will the floor of the new cockpit have a removable cover like the > Dana 24 or the Flicka (I think) They were for engine access perhaps, but it > sure would be neat to be able to get in there. Would it be possible to do > that to an old cockpit? Larry ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: "Morris, Giles" Subject: RE: M_Boats: CBR itinerary Date: 11 Jan 2001 11:16:07 -0600 > Is St. Michael's accessible from the Choptank Yes. you go up Broad Creek (about 040 deg from Knapps Narrows), and then turn NW up San Domingo Creek. There are quite a few nice anchorages on the way, but with an M-15 you can get right to a waterman's dock on the South side of St Michaels which is an easy walk from the center of town. The peninsula can't be much more than a half mile wide at that point, but there is a surprising contrast between the North (Miles River) and South (San Domingo Cr.) sides. With up to about 5 feet of draft, you can get to within an easy row of the dock. Sailing on the Choptank itself is very nice -- to my eyes, it's a beautiful area. Giles Morris Arlington VA Vancouver 25 #002 "Dolphin" Montgomery 15 #236 "Umiaq" Sundry kayaks ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: Tom Smith Subject: M_Boats: Question for Bob Eeg Date: 11 Jan 2001 14:56:01 -0800 Hi Bob. What are you using for hatch boards for the M15 these days? It looks like Jerry used a mahogany ply--1/2 inch or maybe 5/8. Oh, and what's the scoop on windows. At one time I was getting some from you. T Tom Smith M15--Chukar Sandpoint, Idaho ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: Seth and Maureen Macinko Subject: Re: M_Boats: Sailing main only question Date: 11 Jan 2001 19:59:53 -0500 >I'm looking for a Montgomery 15 to buy. I would like to know from members of >this group how it handles under main sail only? How about jib only? > >Dan Dan, Where are you located? I'm selling a M-15 and live in SE Connecticut near Mystic. Seth ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: "Bill Riker" Subject: RE: M_Boats: Dates - Chesapeake Rondevous 2001 Date: 11 Jan 2001 20:41:13 -0500 Connie, Nothing, really. We're staying at a B&B, where the reception will be held, on a horse farm outside of Charlottesville. I'm sure the M15 would find a place there somewhere. Bill -----Original Message----- [mailto:owner-montgomery_boats@lists.xmission.com]On Behalf Of Conbert H Benneck Sent: January 10, 2001 8:21 PM Bill, My old cruising gang - the Goose Island Cruising Club - were mad as could be when the daughter of one of our group picked a weekend in June to get married. How could she do that to sailors? ...and she should know better having grown up on board. Summer weekends are for sailing, not for standing around in churches and wedding receptions! It took quite awhile till she was forgiven! ....and what's wrong with towing the M15 to the wedding? Connie ________________________________________________________________ GET INTERNET ACCESS FROM JUNO! Juno offers FREE or PREMIUM Internet access for less! Join Juno today! For your FREE software, visit: http://dl.www.juno.com/get/tagj. ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: John Fleming Subject: M_Boats: M-17 Centerboard Date: 12 Jan 2001 00:15:57 -0700 Hi, It's been a while since I've written. We moved from Arizona, and are now in Redondo Beach CA. I'm finally catching up on all the tasks that happen when you move to a new state and get a new job, so now it's finally time to start sailing. One thing first. Now that we'll be saltwater sailors, we have to prep that rusty M-17 cast iron centerboard. I never cared when I was a freshwater sailor in Arizona. I'm getting ready for the yard to hoist up the boat, drop the centerboard out, sandblast the rust away, and then ... What do I paint/cover it with? I've seen lots of talk over the years about this on the mailing list, but I can't remember if there is a consensus, or manufacturer's recommendation. I imagine some sort of epoxy paint, perhaps followed by a bottom paint. The epoxy to seal out the water and prevent rust, the bottom paint to prevent marine flora and fauna from hitchhiking. But what paint? Any recommendations? Will that epoxy-based bottom paint do as well as epoxy plus bottom paint? Thanks for any help you can provide. Regards, John Fleming M-17: "Star Cross'd" jfleming1231@earthlink.net ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: Howard A Subject: Re: M_Boats: M-17 Centerboard Date: 12 Jan 2001 05:54:12 -0600 John Fleming wrote: > One thing first. Now that we'll be saltwater sailors, we have to prep > that rusty M-17 cast iron centerboard. I never cared when I was a > freshwater sailor in Arizona. I'm getting ready for the yard to hoist > up the boat, drop the centerboard out, sandblast the rust away, and then ... > > What do I paint/cover it with? I've seen lots of talk over the years > about this on the mailing list, but I can't remember if there is a > consensus, or manufacturer's recommendation. I imagine some sort of > epoxy paint, perhaps followed by a bottom paint. The epoxy to seal out > the water and prevent rust, the bottom paint to prevent marine flora and > fauna from hitchhiking. > When I did mine, I called Interlux to find out what they recommended to prevent rust and to protect cast iron under water. The schedule was: 1 coat 353 Viny-lux Primewash base (a 2 part etching primer) 1 pint 3-4 coats Interprotect 2000 E ( a 2 part base primer) 2 quarts 2 to 3 coats of bottom paint ...I used VC Offshore, 1 quart The etching primer needs to go on the sandblasted metal ASAP before it hazes over with rust. Preferably within a few hours. Once you start, you can't stop until at least one coat of bottom paint is on. There are maximum times between primer coats, measured in hours. You also have to find a way to get to both sides (100%) of the board to paint it. Once you mix the 2 part primer, it has a short pot life, so you can't stand around and wait on it to dry. You might try hanging it from the front pin hole with a thin piece of wire. I painted one side, then rolled it over to suspend it on three 1/4" dowels placed in the top of saw horses. The dowels dented the green paint a little, but didn't break through. It held up well for one season, except for where it dropped down on the trailer when the trailer roller fell out during at trip. It got a little ding there, and is rusting again where it broke through the paint. So I get to do some of this again. Anyway, that's what I did. Probably overkill, but it worked. It wasn't cheap!!! One other thing..don't order the paint and primers. It is hazardous stuff. The shipping could cost more than the materials. Buy it at a local store. If the stuff doesn't look right when you open it, take it back. It has a short shelf life. All of it. Ergo my interest in a bronze cb. They aren't cheap, but hauling, sandblasting and painting isn't either :-) Howard ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: AirEvacLen@aol.com Subject: Re: M_Boats: Sailing main only question Date: 12 Jan 2001 08:16:22 EST In a message dated 01/11/2001 6:22:15 PM US Mountain Standard Time, macinkos@micronet.net writes: << Dan, Where are you located? I'm selling a M-15 and live in SE Connecticut near Mystic. Seth >> B-r-r-r-r-r-r-r-r-r-r Lenny ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: Doug Kelch Subject: Re: M_Boats: CBR itinerary Date: 12 Jan 2001 20:54:29 -0500 Giles, Thinking about starting points, launching ramps etc: Is there a good launching ramp at Deal? To all - any thoughts on starting points Assume the prevailing winds are S to SE Rhode river is about13 km to the SE to Knapp Narrows entrance and has decent local cruising for a day or two if the bay is too rough. Deal is about 10 km E to Knapp Narrows entrance but has little local cruising Solomons Is is about 24 km NNE to Tilgman Is and has great local cruising but could be a long beat back. Tilgman Il has a good well protected ramp, little parking and local permit required (can work those details out) and you are in the Choptank river. I do enjoy the long sails but my bones are getting stiffer every year! Doug "Seas the Day" ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: mikit Subject: Re: M_Boats: M-17 Centerboard Date: 12 Jan 2001 22:37:27 -0800 --============_-1232754642==_ma============ Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" ; format="flowed" A while back I was reading through a discussion forum from a group called NACE International. This is a professional group dedicated to controlling and preventing corrosion. The discussion input seemed to be mostly from engineers working in the pipeline, industrial plant and chemical industries. Although many products and solutions were discussed one stood out as being recommended as a superior product by many in the group. The product name is Rust Grip, manufactured by a company called Superior products. This stuff sounds too good to be true. The company does have a web page and searching out Rust Grip in Yahoo retrieves several hits like this one. http://www.owt.com/redhawk/rust-grip.html If further research shows this product to work as proclaimed, it may be my choice when I redo our centerboard. I am skeptical however as I haven't read anything about underwater applications. This was a question I had planned on asking the manufacture but haven't got around to it. I also don't know the cost however I recall someone mentioning it wasn't very expensive for what it does and how long it lasts. I am also curious why nobody has tried hot dip galvanizing. Mike M17-369 >Hi, > >It's been a while since I've written. We moved from Arizona, and are >now in Redondo Beach CA. I'm finally catching up on all the tasks that >happen when you move to a new state and get a new job, so now it's >finally time to start sailing. > >One thing first. Now that we'll be saltwater sailors, we have to prep >that rusty M-17 cast iron centerboard. I never cared when I was a >freshwater sailor in Arizona. I'm getting ready for the yard to hoist >up the boat, drop the centerboard out, sandblast the rust away, and then ... > >What do I paint/cover it with? I've seen lots of talk over the years >about this on the mailing list, but I can't remember if there is a >consensus, or manufacturer's recommendation. I imagine some sort of >epoxy paint, perhaps followed by a bottom paint. The epoxy to seal out >the water and prevent rust, the bottom paint to prevent marine flora and >fauna from hitchhiking. > >But what paint? Any recommendations? Will that epoxy-based bottom >paint do as well as epoxy plus bottom paint? > >Thanks for any help you can provide. > >Regards, >John Fleming >M-17: "Star Cross'd" > >jfleming1231@earthlink.net --============_-1232754642==_ma============ Content-Type: text/html; charset="us-ascii" Re: M_Boats: M-17 Centerboard
A while back I was reading through a discussion forum from a group called NACE International. This is a professional group dedicated to controlling and preventing corrosion. The discussion input seemed to be mostly from engineers working in the pipeline, industrial plant and chemical industries. Although many products and solutions were discussed one stood out as being recommended as a superior product by many in the group. The product name is Rust Grip, manufactured by a company called Superior products. This stuff sounds too good to be true.  The company does have a web page and searching out Rust Grip in Yahoo retrieves several hits like this one.  http://www.owt.com/redhawk/rust-grip.html
If further research shows this product to work as proclaimed, it may be my choice when I redo our centerboard. I am skeptical however as I haven't read anything about underwater applications. This was a question I had planned on asking the manufacture but haven't got around to it.  I also don't know the cost however I recall someone mentioning it wasn't very expensive for what it does and how long it lasts. I am also curious why nobody has tried hot dip galvanizing.

Mike
M17-369 


Hi,

It's been a while since I've written.  We moved from Arizona, and are
now in Redondo Beach CA.  I'm finally catching up on all the tasks that
happen when you move to a new state and get a new job, so now it's
finally time to start sailing.

One thing first.  Now that we'll be saltwater sailors, we have to prep
that rusty M-17 cast iron centerboard.  I never cared when I was a
freshwater sailor in Arizona.  I'm getting ready for the yard to hoist
up the boat, drop the centerboard out, sandblast the rust away, and then ...

What do I paint/cover it with?  I've seen lots of talk over the years
about this on the mailing list, but I can't remember if there is a
consensus, or manufacturer's recommendation.  I imagine some sort of
epoxy paint, perhaps followed by a bottom paint.  The epoxy to seal out
the water and prevent rust, the bottom paint to prevent marine flora and
fauna from hitchhiking.

But what paint?  Any recommendations?  Will that epoxy-based bottom
paint do as well as epoxy plus bottom paint?

Thanks for any help you can provide.

Regards,
John Fleming
M-17:  "Star Cross'd"

jfleming1231@earthlink.net

--============_-1232754642==_ma============-- ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: Bob Subject: Re: M_Boats: Question for Bob Eeg Date: 13 Jan 2001 06:01:44 -0800 Tom I still have your windows in my car! :-) Just been busy and I will endevour to get them wrapped and mailed. I did change computers a couple of weeks ago and will need your mailing address again. (I could hand them to Jerry but would lose them, Hehehe) We are using 1/2 inch teak faced plywood (3 pieces) for the 15. (looks like mohogany on the backside). Fair winds Bob Tom Smith wrote: > Hi Bob. What are you using for hatch boards for the M15 these days? It > looks like Jerry used a mahogany ply--1/2 inch or maybe 5/8. > > Oh, and what's the scoop on windows. At one time I was getting some from > you. T > > Tom Smith > M15--Chukar > Sandpoint, Idaho > > > > > > ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: AirEvacLen@aol.com Subject: M_Boats: Re: Rust Grip Date: 13 Jan 2001 09:24:31 EST In a message dated 01/12/2001 11:39:51 PM US Mountain Standard Time, mikit@pioneer-net.com writes: << The product name is Rust Grip, manufactured by a company called Superior products >> Mike Great research !!!!!! I saw something in there about being used on ships and pylons.........You're right, sounds too good to be true. Maybe somebody finally built a better mouse trap.....heheh Lenny ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: jerry montgomery Subject: Re: M_Boats: M23 Centerboard Date: 13 Jan 2001 14:23:14 +0000 You guys have to remember that the board won't try to come up unless the boat is heeled more than 90 degrees. Even if it did, the trunk is strong enuf to take a lot of slamming around. Don't worry about it! Jerry Richard Lane wrote: > > I think the only safe way to "lock" the cb down on a 23 is by means of a > sacrificial long dowel inserted behind the Merriman winch to bear on the iron > plate just forward of the tang. This dowel would break in a hard grounding but > keep the keel in the maximum restoring moment position in a knockdown. > I was once knocked down in SF Bay till water came over the cockpit coaming > and my son almost went o'board, the plate did not come all the way up but was > heard to clunk back down when the microburst relented. > Regards, Dick > > AirEvacLen@aol.com wrote: > > > In a message dated 01/01/2001 2:50:50 PM US Mountain Standard Time, > > htmills@bright.net writes: > > > > << Theo......if the c/b is like mine on my M17 you don't > > need to lock it down for safety....there is sufficient > > ballast in the keel. > > > > Tod > > >> > > > > Tod > > > > You have to understand where Theo is going with this.........despite the > > ballasted keel, you have a c/b which is subject to the laws of > > gravity..........roll the boat over beyond it's lateral stability point and > > you have a c/b ready to crash through the trunk. I've thought about it too, > > Theo............. > > > > Lenny ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: Shawn Boles Subject: RE: M_Boats: M23 Centerboard Date: 13 Jan 2001 15:55:23 -0800 Jerry: Concern is that if centerboard returns to trunk during capsize, boat may be stable in inverted position... By the way, what is the point at which the righting moment goes negative on an M-17? My guess is ca. 130 degrees... cheers- Shawn Boles Grey Mist (M17 #276 1978) -----Original Message----- Sent: Saturday, January 13, 2001 6:23 AM You guys have to remember that the board won't try to come up unless the boat is heeled more than 90 degrees. Even if it did, the trunk is strong enuf to take a lot of slamming around. Don't worry about it! Jerry Richard Lane wrote: > > I think the only safe way to "lock" the cb down on a 23 is by means of a > sacrificial long dowel inserted behind the Merriman winch to bear on the iron > plate just forward of the tang. This dowel would break in a hard grounding but > keep the keel in the maximum restoring moment position in a knockdown. > I was once knocked down in SF Bay till water came over the cockpit coaming > and my son almost went o'board, the plate did not come all the way up but was > heard to clunk back down when the microburst relented. > Regards, Dick > > AirEvacLen@aol.com wrote: > > > In a message dated 01/01/2001 2:50:50 PM US Mountain Standard Time, > > htmills@bright.net writes: > > > > << Theo......if the c/b is like mine on my M17 you don't > > need to lock it down for safety....there is sufficient > > ballast in the keel. > > > > Tod > > >> > > > > Tod > > > > You have to understand where Theo is going with this.........despite the > > ballasted keel, you have a c/b which is subject to the laws of > > gravity..........roll the boat over beyond it's lateral stability point and > > you have a c/b ready to crash through the trunk. I've thought about it too, > > Theo............. > > > > Lenny ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: "Theo Petron" Subject: Re: M_Boats: Stictly Sail Chicago Date: 14 Jan 2001 14:34:58 -0600 Dale, I'll take it if its still avail. Email me.. Theo Dale Williams wrote: > I will not be able to attend Strictly Sail Chicago as I had planned. I > have a two day admittance ticket and would hate to have it go unused. > If anyone wants it, email me and I will mail it out. > > Dale > M15 "Sophie Mae" ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: "Morris, Giles" Subject: RE: M_Boats: CBR itinerary Date: 14 Jan 2001 18:48:29 -0600 >Is there a good launching ramp at Deal? I believe so, and will go to have a look when I go there next. The one that I'm thinking of is at a small marina next to mine. I think that there may be at least one more, and will post more information ASAP. >Rhode river is about13 km to the SE to Knapp Narrows entrance and has decent >local cruising for a day or two if the bay is too rough I like the West/Rhode river, and it has some nice anchorages. The big city around there is Galesville. There are launching ramps at two marinas in Shadyside, which is at the entrance to the Rhode river. >Deal is about 10 km E to Knapp Narrows entrance but has little local cruising Yep -- Deale is a good place to keep a boat, but a truly lousy destination. >Tilgman Il has a good well protected ramp, little parking and local permit >required (can work those details out) and you are in the Choptank river. It also has a really nice restaurant at Harrison's Hotel, but not much in the way of anchorage. Two other ramps that I've seen in the area are a free town ramp in Oxford, where I have launched Umiaq but would have grave reservations about anything bigger, and what looks like an excellent free ramp in Cambridge. Giles ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: Tom Smith Subject: RE: M_Boats: Question for Bob Eeg Date: 15 Jan 2001 07:07:20 -0800 Thanks for the info Bob. My address is 1724 Hickory, Sandpoint, ID 83864. Look forward to getting those windows. T Tom Smith M15--Chukar Sandpoint, Idaho -----Original Message----- Sent: Saturday, January 13, 2001 6:02 AM Tom I still have your windows in my car! :-) Just been busy and I will endevour to get them wrapped and mailed. I did change computers a couple of weeks ago and will need your mailing address again. (I could hand them to Jerry but would lose them, Hehehe) We are using 1/2 inch teak faced plywood (3 pieces) for the 15. (looks like mohogany on the backside). Fair winds Bob Tom Smith wrote: > Hi Bob. What are you using for hatch boards for the M15 these days? It > looks like Jerry used a mahogany ply--1/2 inch or maybe 5/8. > > Oh, and what's the scoop on windows. At one time I was getting some from > you. T > > Tom Smith > M15--Chukar > Sandpoint, Idaho > > > > > > ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: Tom Smith Subject: RE: M_Boats: Question for Bob Eeg Date: 15 Jan 2001 07:12:23 -0800 BTW Bob, is that a marine grade ply or do you guys just varnish thoroughly and call it good? Thanks. T. Tom Smith M15--Chukar Sandpoint, Idaho -----Original Message----- Sent: Saturday, January 13, 2001 6:02 AM Tom I still have your windows in my car! :-) Just been busy and I will endevour to get them wrapped and mailed. I did change computers a couple of weeks ago and will need your mailing address again. (I could hand them to Jerry but would lose them, Hehehe) We are using 1/2 inch teak faced plywood (3 pieces) for the 15. (looks like mohogany on the backside). Fair winds Bob Tom Smith wrote: > Hi Bob. What are you using for hatch boards for the M15 these days? It > looks like Jerry used a mahogany ply--1/2 inch or maybe 5/8. > > Oh, and what's the scoop on windows. At one time I was getting some from > you. T > > Tom Smith > M15--Chukar > Sandpoint, Idaho > > > > > > ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: Bob Subject: Re: M_Boats: Question for Bob Eeg Date: 15 Jan 2001 07:35:36 -0800 Tom Its 1/2 inch marine grade teak plywood. Even though its marine grade you should still varnish the edges and faces. (light oil on the teak face) Your FREE set of windows (because you and Jerry Montgomery kicked ass at the SCA Cruiser challange in your Montgomery 15) will be mailed priority mail today. The windows are blank and you will have to backdrill the mounting holes to match your boat. Are you going to the next race in April? Fair winds Bob Now off to work on the 23 with Jerry......the 'house' is framed in. Companionway hatch is next. :-) Tom Smith wrote: > BTW Bob, is that a marine grade ply or do you guys just varnish thoroughly > and call it good? Thanks. T. > > Tom Smith > M15--Chukar > Sandpoint, Idaho > > > > -----Original Message----- > From: Bob [mailto:Bobeeg@earthlink.net] > Sent: Saturday, January 13, 2001 6:02 AM > To: montgomery_boats@lists.xmission.com > Subject: Re: M_Boats: Question for Bob Eeg > > > Tom > I still have your windows in my car! :-) > > Just been busy and I will endevour to get them wrapped and mailed. > I did change computers a couple of weeks ago and will need your > mailing address again. (I could hand them to Jerry but would lose them, > Hehehe) > > We are using 1/2 inch teak faced plywood (3 pieces) for the 15. (looks > like mohogany > on the backside). > > Fair winds > > Bob > > > Tom Smith wrote: > >> Hi Bob. What are you using for hatch boards for the M15 these days? It >> looks like Jerry used a mahogany ply--1/2 inch or maybe 5/8. >> >> Oh, and what's the scoop on windows. At one time I was getting some from >> you. T >> >> Tom Smith >> M15--Chukar >> Sandpoint, Idaho >> >> >> >> >> >> ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: Rachel Subject: M_Boats: Upper midwest M-17 for sale Date: 15 Jan 2001 11:05:24 -0600 --=====================_674606==_.ALT Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii"; format=flowed Hi gang, It's time to sell my M-17 (not giving up on sailing, mind you, but have a chance to do some long-term sailing on another boat, and can't contribute financially to both enterprises). I need to sell it fairly soon, hence the rock-bottom price. Figured I'd give M-listers advance notice before posting it on the Trailer Sailor classifieds. Here are the basics: 1981 M-17 --- $3900. Contact me (Rachel) at gavia77@hotmail.com By the way, 1981 was the first model year to have a number of design improvements. I think the big one is the improved hull-to-deck joint. Very strong and no leaks. It also results in a much more rigid transom due to the u-shaped section at the top. It also has the wet locker for cockpit drainage and storage of gas, oil, etc. The new-style frameless windows were added. There were a few other changes made, but I think those are the major ones. * Trail-Rite trailer in reasonable condition - newer fenders are sturdier than originals, no problem standing on them to get in and out of the boat, good tires. There is one section of the tongue that is a tube (the rest of the trailer is open channel) and that does have a rusty spot on the bottom that should be welded (where the original storage wheel went through - that's been replaced by a modern, clamp on wheel), but it's still towable as is. Has a bulldog style hitch for a 2" ball. Towed very well across the country with a Toyota 4 cylinder, but had to be careful to downshift in the mountains. Later used a Ford Ranger 6 cylinder and it was even less noticeable -- and I'm a nervous tow-er even. * 1995 Yamaha 4hp, 2-stroke, long-shaft motor (less than 10 hours use) (looks just like the 5hp on their web site except for slightly different stripes). * Adjustable, spring loaded, heavy-duty motor mount. * Newer main with one reef point and a sturdy sail cover and a like-new working jib on a furler with Sunbrella cover that matches the main's cover. * Nice looking, custom-made stern pulpit - not quite as large looking as others I've seen (not installed). * Interior cushion fabric in excellent condition. * A few other small items: boat hook, spinnaker pole, anchor, etc. When I bought the boat, it wasn't in too bad a condition, but I'm the belt-and-suspenders type that has to know everything is perfect (friends say "anal" - if you can believe them :-). This means that while others would have been out sailing their less-than-perfect boats, I was turning mine into a big project! What I have completed is done to a finicky, high standard, and what I haven't finished could be done in a few weekends by any normal person :-) Here's what I've done: * Buffed entire hull, cockpit, and deck with a professional buffer (yes, it can whip you into another galaxy). Then polished, then waxed. Now it shines like new (did non-skid by hand with a scrub brush so it would stay rough; didn't polish or wax it). * Protected the deck core at every penetration. Every single fitting (including mast step, chain plates, etc.) was taken off and each hole enlarged (more from below, less from above for a graduated, stronger plug), then filled with epoxy, then re-drilled. I did find some areas of damp core (no outer sign of it, so wonder if this may be a problem on other boats...), which I took out (not fun!! But love that Fein Multi-Master) and replaced with new core, thickened epoxy, and new fiberglass (from inside the cabin, can't be noticed now). * Reinforced the deck at the mast step. I noticed that the previous owner had put a little shim between the compression post and the underside of the deck and wondered why. Turned out that the deck's core had compressed. I took out the core in an area above and surrounding the mast and put in an epoxy, filler, mill fiber mix to make it solid, then re-glassed (three layers) and faired and made a new mahogany piece to go between the compression post and underside of cabin top. * Removed all rudder hardware and stripped rudder. Smoothed and faired. Slightly enlarged and then epoxied the gudgeon bolt holes, slight cracks at bottom edge, and the motor-prop gouge. Coated with epoxy below water line (when rudder raised - should have bottom paint on that section), varnished above. Same for tiller. * Removed and refinished teak companionway trim - used 12 coats of Epifanes varnish - they really gleam! * Painted inside of cabin (the part that's kind of spatter-painted from the factory) with two coats of Pettit "Dura White" (meant for boat cabins) tinted to match cream of hull liner and rest of interior. * Wired bow pulpit for future bicolor light to get lights a bit higher and reduce power consumption (only one bulb, not two). Wire runs inside pulpit. * Had bottom gently, professionally sandblasted. It had a few little bulges and I wanted to barrier coat it anyway. The bulges turned out not to be true "osmotic" blisters, but rather the kind that result when there are air bubbles in the original gel-coat. There was absolutely no moisture present, and none of the typical signs of osmosis - brown liquid, smell, etc. I then used a Dremel to open up any other little suspect spots, with the same results. Next I rinsed with appropriate Interlux solvent and filled with the blue, two part Interlux filler (can't remember name right now). After a relatively easy powersand, the parts I've done are smooth and fair. What's left to do: * Some of the trim and fittings aren't reinstalled yet. I did re-bed and reinstall the bow pulpit and the chain plates. * Toe rails are usable, but new ones would be nicer. They are off the boat right now; could be put back on just by re-bolting. I do have the teak for new ones and had planned for a local boat builder to mill them for me. That may still be a possibility. * Hand rails are in poor condition (identical ones available through West Marine for about $36 each) * The bottom isn't finished. It's all prepped, but I've only filled/faired about 1/3 of it. I do have the Interlux filler and solvent products. Then it's ready for barrier coat and bottom paint. * The centerboard could do with a clean up (it's the cast iron one) and a new pendant (line that pulls it up). * A couple of the stays may need replacing. They are in good condition in terms of no "meat hooks," etc., but I noticed that the ones that pass through the spreaders look a little worse for the wear just at that spot. The boat is now located in NW Wisconsin. If you're interested and want to talk further, contact me at gavia77@hotmail.com and we can take it from there. Thanks --- Rachel --=====================_674606==_.ALT Content-Type: text/html; charset="us-ascii"
Hi gang,
It's time to sell my M-17 (not giving up on sailing, mind you, but have a chance to do some long-term sailing on another boat, and can't contribute financially to both enterprises). I need to sell it fairly soon, hence the rock-bottom price. Figured I'd give M-listers advance notice before posting it on the Trailer Sailor classifieds. Here are the basics:
1981 M-17  --- $3900. Contact me (Rachel) at gavia77@hotmail.com
By the way, 1981 was the first model year to have a number of design improvements. I think the big one is the improved hull-to-deck joint. Very strong and no leaks. It also results in a much more rigid transom due to the u-shaped section at the top. It also has the wet locker for cockpit drainage and storage of gas, oil, etc. The new-style frameless windows were added. There were a few other changes made, but I think those are the major ones.
* Trail-Rite trailer in reasonable condition - newer fenders are sturdier than originals, no problem standing on them to get in and out of the boat, good tires. There is one section of the tongue that is a tube (the rest of the trailer is open channel) and that does have a rusty spot on the bottom that should be welded (where the original storage wheel went through - that's been replaced by a modern, clamp on wheel), but it's still towable as is. Has a bulldog style hitch for a 2" ball. Towed very well across the country with a Toyota 4 cylinder, but had to be careful to downshift in the mountains. Later used a Ford Ranger 6 cylinder and it was even less noticeable -- and I'm a nervous tow-er even.
* 1995 Yamaha 4hp, 2-stroke, long-shaft motor (less than 10 hours use) (looks just like the 5hp on their web site except for slightly different stripes).
* Adjustable, spring loaded, heavy-duty motor mount.
* Newer main with one reef point and a sturdy sail cover and a like-new working jib on a furler with Sunbrella cover that matches the main's cover.
* Nice looking, custom-made stern pulpit - not quite as large looking as others I've seen (not installed).

* Interior cushion fabric in excellent condition.
* A few other small items: boat hook, spinnaker pole, anchor, etc.
When I bought the boat, it wasn't in too bad a condition, but I'm the belt-and-suspenders type that has to know everything is perfect (friends say "anal" - if you can believe them :-). This means that while others would have been out sailing their less-than-perfect boats, I was turning mine into a big project! What I have completed is done to a finicky, high standard, and what I haven't finished could be done in a few weekends by any normal person :-)

Here's what I've done:

* Buffed entire hull, cockpit, and deck with a professional buffer (yes, it can whip you into another galaxy). Then polished, then waxed. Now it shines like new (did non-skid by hand with a scrub brush so it would stay rough; didn't polish or wax it).

* Protected the deck core at every penetration. Every single fitting (including mast step, chain plates, etc.) was taken off and each hole enlarged (more from below, less from above for a graduated, stronger plug), then filled with epoxy, then re-drilled. I did find some areas of damp core (no outer sign of it, so wonder if this may be a problem on other boats...), which I took out (not fun!! But love that Fein Multi-Master) and replaced with new core, thickened epoxy, and new fiberglass (from inside the cabin, can't be noticed now).

* Reinforced the deck at the mast step. I noticed that the previous owner had put a little shim between the compression post and the underside of the deck and wondered why. Turned out that the deck's core had compressed. I took out the core in an area above and surrounding the mast and put in an epoxy, filler, mill fiber mix to make it solid, then re-glassed (three layers) and faired and made a new mahogany piece to go between the compression post and underside of cabin top.

* Removed all rudder hardware and stripped rudder. Smoothed and faired. Slightly enlarged and then epoxied the gudgeon bolt holes, slight cracks at bottom edge, and the motor-prop gouge. Coated with epoxy below water line (when rudder raised - should have bottom paint on that section), varnished above. Same for tiller.

* Removed and refinished teak companionway trim - used 12 coats of Epifanes varnish - they really gleam!

* Painted inside of cabin (the part that's kind of spatter-painted from the factory) with two coats of Pettit "Dura White" (meant for boat cabins) tinted to match cream of hull liner and rest of interior.

* Wired bow pulpit for future bicolor light to get lights a bit higher and reduce power consumption (only one bulb, not two). Wire runs inside pulpit.

* Had bottom gently, professionally sandblasted. It had a few little bulges and I wanted to barrier coat it anyway. The bulges turned out not to be true "osmotic" blisters, but rather the kind that result when there are air bubbles in the original gel-coat. There was absolutely no moisture present, and none of the typical signs of osmosis - brown liquid, smell, etc. I then used a Dremel to open up any other little suspect spots, with the same results. Next I rinsed with appropriate Interlux solvent and filled with the blue, two part Interlux filler (can't remember name right now). After a relatively easy powersand, the parts I've done are smooth and fair.


What's left to do:

* Some of the trim and fittings aren't reinstalled yet. I did re-bed and reinstall the bow pulpit and the chain plates.

* Toe rails are usable, but new ones would be nicer. They are off the boat right now; could be put back on just by re-bolting. I do have the teak for new ones and had planned for a local boat builder to mill them for me. That may still be a possibility.

* Hand rails are in poor condition (identical ones available through West Marine for about $36 each)

* The bottom isn't finished. It's all prepped, but I've only filled/faired about 1/3 of it. I do have the Interlux filler and solvent products. Then it's ready for barrier coat and bottom paint.

* The centerboard could do with a clean up (it's the cast iron one) and a new pendant (line that pulls it up).

* A couple of the stays may need replacing. They are in good condition in terms of no "meat hooks," etc., but I noticed that the ones that pass through the spreaders look a little worse for the wear just at that spot.

The boat is now located in NW Wisconsin. If you're interested and want to talk further, contact me at gavia77@hotmail.com and we can take it from there. Thanks --- Rachel




 --=====================_674606==_.ALT-- ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: Dale Williams Subject: Re: M_Boats: Stictly Sail Chicago Date: 15 Jan 2001 11:08:40 -0600 Theo: Sorry, but Michael Bowdon got to me first. I hope you both have a good time. It sounds like a great show! Dale Theo Petron wrote: > Dale, > I'll take it if its still avail. > Email me.. > Theo > > Dale Williams wrote: > > > I will not be able to attend Strictly Sail Chicago as I had planned. I > > have a two day admittance ticket and would hate to have it go unused. > > If anyone wants it, email me and I will mail it out. > > > > Dale > > M15 "Sophie Mae" ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: Tom Smith Subject: RE: M_Boats: Question for Bob Eeg Date: 15 Jan 2001 16:04:52 -0800 Bob I'd probably be willing to drive to Oakland to defend with Jerry next summer, but we haven't talked about it yet. At my request, I believe Dr. Judy is considering adding an out and back race on Sunday to somewhere in the bay--she wants to keep the estuary race on Saturday fairly tame for the sake of novice sailors. We'll see what Jerry says. Jane and I are pretty much always up for a good road trip and we had a great time with you guys in July. We'll see what Jerry's up to... T Tom Smith M15--Chukar Sandpoint, Idaho -----Original Message----- Sent: Monday, January 15, 2001 7:36 AM Tom Its 1/2 inch marine grade teak plywood. Even though its marine grade you should still varnish the edges and faces. (light oil on the teak face) Your FREE set of windows (because you and Jerry Montgomery kicked ass at the SCA Cruiser challange in your Montgomery 15) will be mailed priority mail today. The windows are blank and you will have to backdrill the mounting holes to match your boat. Are you going to the next race in April? Fair winds Bob Now off to work on the 23 with Jerry......the 'house' is framed in. Companionway hatch is next. :-) Tom Smith wrote: > BTW Bob, is that a marine grade ply or do you guys just varnish thoroughly > and call it good? Thanks. T. > > Tom Smith > M15--Chukar > Sandpoint, Idaho > > > > -----Original Message----- > From: Bob [mailto:Bobeeg@earthlink.net] > Sent: Saturday, January 13, 2001 6:02 AM > To: montgomery_boats@lists.xmission.com > Subject: Re: M_Boats: Question for Bob Eeg > > > Tom > I still have your windows in my car! :-) > > Just been busy and I will endevour to get them wrapped and mailed. > I did change computers a couple of weeks ago and will need your > mailing address again. (I could hand them to Jerry but would lose them, > Hehehe) > > We are using 1/2 inch teak faced plywood (3 pieces) for the 15. (looks > like mohogany > on the backside). > > Fair winds > > Bob > > > Tom Smith wrote: > >> Hi Bob. What are you using for hatch boards for the M15 these days? It >> looks like Jerry used a mahogany ply--1/2 inch or maybe 5/8. >> >> Oh, and what's the scoop on windows. At one time I was getting some from >> you. T >> >> Tom Smith >> M15--Chukar >> Sandpoint, Idaho >> >> >> >> >> >> ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: "John Crews" Subject: M_Boats: Genius frees centerboard Date: 16 Jan 2001 03:13:49 The centerboard on my 1978 M17 has a habit of hanging up, failing to drop all the way down without considerable stomping and pounding. This despite pulling, blasting and repainting with marine epoxy a few years ago. Recently, while at Morro Bay, I brought out an old squeeze bottle with a long pointed snout filled with a dishsoap solution. A few squirts down the rope through the tiny space between the rope and the hole in the fiberglass where the rope goes into the centerboard trunk and, clunk, the centerboard dropped into place with a minimum of working up and down. Regards, John Crews M17 'Allegretto' Port San Luis, CA _________________________________________________________________ Get your FREE download of MSN Explorer at http://explorer.msn.com ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: Chapdw@aol.com Subject: Re: M_Boats: CBR itinerary Date: 15 Jan 2001 22:22:37 EST --part1_ea.1009e53e.2795187d_boundary Content-Type: text/plain; charset="ISO-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Larry, Yes, I got the mast lowered using the wire cables and mainsheet like you=20 suggested. Thanks a lot! =A0The boat has a rigid roller furling and took=20 several of us to get things lowered. That, plus the fact that the mainsheet=20 was just a bit too short, made for an interesting experience! Dennis M23 #002 "Walkabout" --part1_ea.1009e53e.2795187d_boundary Content-Type: text/html; charset="ISO-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Larry,
Yes, I got the mast lowered using the wire cables and mainsheet like you= =20
suggested. Thanks a lot! =A0The boat has a rigid roller furling and took= =20
several of us to get things lowered. That, plus the fact that the mainsh= eet=20
was just a bit too short, made for an interesting experience!

Dennis
M23 #002 "Walkabout" --part1_ea.1009e53e.2795187d_boundary-- ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: Jslubliner@aol.com Subject: Re: M_Boats: Question for Bob Eeg Date: 16 Jan 2001 08:22:29 EST --part1_b0.f0bcd5e.2795a515_boundary Content-Type: text/plain; charset="US-ASCII" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Guys, keep the info coming on the Oakland race & visit - might make it a Coyote trip as well - John & Coyote in Tucson --part1_b0.f0bcd5e.2795a515_boundary Content-Type: text/html; charset="US-ASCII" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Guys, keep the info coming on the Oakland race & visit - might make it a
Coyote trip as well -

John & Coyote in Tucson --part1_b0.f0bcd5e.2795a515_boundary-- ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: Bob Subject: Re: M_Boats: Question for Bob Eeg Date: 16 Jan 2001 07:07:07 -0800 --------------070501070701060304030803 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit John It would be great if you could bring Coyote to Oakland for the SCA Cruiser challange. We expect it to be in April again this year. When I find out I will post it. Jerry Montgomery is considering going again and now if we could get Tom Smith to bring his 15 .........Hmmmm another Potter bash? hehehe Bob Jslubliner@aol.com wrote: > Guys, keep the info coming on the Oakland race & visit - might make it a > Coyote trip as well - > > John & Coyote in Tucson --------------070501070701060304030803 Content-Type: text/html; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit John
It would be great if you could bring Coyote to Oakland for the
SCA Cruiser challange.
We expect it to be in April again this year.

When I find out I will post it.

Jerry Montgomery is considering going again and now if we could get Tom Smith to
bring his 15 .........Hmmmm another Potter bash? hehehe

Bob

Jslubliner@aol.com wrote:
Guys, keep the info coming on the Oakland race & visit - might make it a
Coyote trip as well -

John & Coyote in Tucson

--------------070501070701060304030803-- ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: Tom Smith Subject: RE: M_Boats: Question for Bob Eeg Date: 16 Jan 2001 08:20:38 -0800 This message is in MIME format. Since your mail reader does not understand this format, some or all of this message may not be legible. ------_=_NextPart_001_01C07FD8.435066A0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Bob, the cruiser challenge was in July. Wake up dude. t Tom Smith M15--Chukar Sandpoint, Idaho -----Original Message----- Sent: Tuesday, January 16, 2001 7:07 AM John It would be great if you could bring Coyote to Oakland for the SCA Cruiser challange. We expect it to be in April again this year. When I find out I will post it. Jerry Montgomery is considering going again and now if we could get Tom Smith to bring his 15 .........Hmmmm another Potter bash? hehehe Bob Jslubliner@aol.com wrote: Guys, keep the info coming on the Oakland race & visit - might make it a Coyote trip as well - John & Coyote in Tucson ------_=_NextPart_001_01C07FD8.435066A0 Content-Type: text/html; charset="iso-8859-1"
Bob, the cruiser challenge was in July.  Wake up dude.  t
 

Tom Smith
M15--Chukar
Sandpoint, Idaho

-----Original Message-----
From: Bob [mailto:Bobeeg@earthlink.net]
Sent: Tuesday, January 16, 2001 7:07 AM
To: montgomery_boats@lists.xmission.com
Subject: Re: M_Boats: Question for Bob Eeg

John
It would be great if you could bring Coyote to Oakland for the
SCA Cruiser challange.
We expect it to be in April again this year.

When I find out I will post it.

Jerry Montgomery is considering going again and now if we could get Tom Smith to
bring his 15 .........Hmmmm another Potter bash? hehehe

Bob

Jslubliner@aol.com wrote:
Guys, keep the info coming on the Oakland race & visit - might make it a
Coyote trip as well -

John & Coyote in Tucson

------_=_NextPart_001_01C07FD8.435066A0-- ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: The Foxman Subject: M_Boats: New Owner Date: 16 Jan 2001 08:43:31 -0800 Hello All, I am a new Montgomery 15 owner. She is a 1982 and in great shape.It took me a year to find her but it was well worth the wait. I am out of Dana Point California. Can anyone tell me the make and model number of the portable toilet that fits in the V birth? Thanks Don Fox ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: Tom Smith Subject: RE: M_Boats: New Owner Date: 16 Jan 2001 09:29:11 -0800 Don, there isn't much information regarding M boats you can search for and find at this address: http://www.listquest.com/lq/search.html?ln=montgomeryboats Tom Smith LineSoft Corporation Phone: 509-928-1707 ext. 248 Fax: 509-928-2581 E-mail: tsmith@linesoft.com Website: www.linesoft.com -----Original Message----- Sent: Tuesday, January 16, 2001 8:44 AM Hello All, I am a new Montgomery 15 owner. She is a 1982 and in great shape.It took me a year to find her but it was well worth the wait. I am out of Dana Point California. Can anyone tell me the make and model number of the portable toilet that fits in the V birth? Thanks Don Fox ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: Donald Fox Subject: Re: M_Boats: New Owner Date: 16 Jan 2001 10:46:30 -0800 Thanks, found more info on potties then I needed:) Don ----- Original Message ----- Sent: Tuesday, January 16, 2001 9:29 AM > Don, there isn't much information regarding M boats you can search for and > find at this address: > > http://www.listquest.com/lq/search.html?ln=montgomeryboats > > Tom Smith > LineSoft Corporation > Phone: 509-928-1707 ext. 248 > Fax: 509-928-2581 > E-mail: tsmith@linesoft.com > Website: www.linesoft.com > > > -----Original Message----- > From: The Foxman [mailto:foxman2@pacbell.net] > Sent: Tuesday, January 16, 2001 8:44 AM > To: montgomery_boats > Subject: M_Boats: New Owner > > > Hello All, > > I am a new Montgomery 15 owner. She is a 1982 and in great shape.It took me > a year to find her but it was well worth the wait. > > I am out of Dana Point California. Can anyone tell me the make and model > number of the portable toilet that fits in the V birth? > > Thanks Don Fox > > > ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: "Randy Graves" Subject: Re: M_Boats: New Owner Date: 16 Jan 2001 14:19:22 -0800 Hi Don, We have a 1988 M-15 that needed a porta-potty. As I recall it wat the Thetford 135 that fit nicely into the well. The trick is the height, others can probably verify if the model 135 is the one that fits. All the others are too tall. Randy G. M15 #407 North Idaho ----- Original Message ----- Sent: Tuesday, January 16, 2001 8:43 AM > Hello All, > > I am a new Montgomery 15 owner. She is a 1982 and in great shape.It took me > a year to find her but it was well worth the wait. > > I am out of Dana Point California. Can anyone tell me the make and model > number of the portable toilet that fits in the V birth? > > Thanks Don Fox > > ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: "Gary M. Hyde" Subject: Re: M_Boats: New Owner Date: 16 Jan 2001 16:41:37 -0800 Yes, the 135 just fits. You have to force it down into the space a little. -- G. M. Hyde BSysE. Dept., WSU Pullman, WA 99164-6120 Ph: 509-335-1636 FAX: 509-335-2722 gmhyde@wsu.edu Web sites: http://www.wsu.edu:8080/~gmhyde/ImpactProperties.html http://www.wsu.edu:8080/~gmhyde/433_web_pages/433AgProcOverview.html http://www.wsu.edu:8080/~gmhyde/433_web_pages/cyclones/-CycloneOverview.html > From: "Randy Graves" > Organization: North Idaho College > Reply-To: montgomery_boats@lists.xmission.com > Date: Tue, 16 Jan 2001 14:19:22 -0800 > To: > Subject: Re: M_Boats: New Owner > > Hi Don, > > We have a 1988 M-15 that needed a porta-potty. As I recall it wat the > Thetford 135 that fit nicely into the well. The trick is the height, others > can probably verify if the model 135 is the one that fits. All the others > are too tall. > > Randy G. > M15 #407 > North Idaho > > ----- Original Message ----- > From: "The Foxman" > To: "montgomery_boats" > Sent: Tuesday, January 16, 2001 8:43 AM > Subject: M_Boats: New Owner > > >> Hello All, >> >> I am a new Montgomery 15 owner. She is a 1982 and in great shape.It took > me >> a year to find her but it was well worth the wait. >> >> I am out of Dana Point California. Can anyone tell me the make and model >> number of the portable toilet that fits in the V birth? >> >> Thanks Don Fox >> >> > > ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: "Bill Riker" Subject: RE: M_Boats: CBR itinerary Date: 16 Jan 2001 19:46:49 -0500 Doug, If we assume any particular thing about the prevailing winds, we'll be headed all the way! I'd be happy with either Solomons or Rhode River (for a change of pace) or anywhere in between. Or the Eastern Shore somewhere, although I didn't see much on my charts. Since I kind of picked the itinerary last year, others should the decisions this year. Bill Riker M-15 #184 Storm Petrel -----Original Message----- [mailto:owner-montgomery_boats@lists.xmission.com]On Behalf Of Doug Kelch Sent: January 12, 2001 8:54 PM Giles, Thinking about starting points, launching ramps etc: Is there a good launching ramp at Deal? To all - any thoughts on starting points Assume the prevailing winds are S to SE Rhode river is about13 km to the SE to Knapp Narrows entrance and has decent local cruising for a day or two if the bay is too rough. Deal is about 10 km E to Knapp Narrows entrance but has little local cruising Solomons Is is about 24 km NNE to Tilgman Is and has great local cruising but could be a long beat back. Tilgman Il has a good well protected ramp, little parking and local permit required (can work those details out) and you are in the Choptank river. I do enjoy the long sails but my bones are getting stiffer every year! Doug "Seas the Day" ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: AirEvacLen@aol.com Subject: Re: M_Boats: Genius frees centerboard Date: 16 Jan 2001 21:08:40 EST In a message dated 01/15/2001 8:14:29 PM US Mountain Standard Time, johncrews@hotmail.com writes: << A few squirts down the rope through the tiny space between the rope and the hole in the fiberglass where the rope goes into the centerboard trunk and, clunk, the centerboard dropped into place with a minimum of working up and down. Regards, John Crews M17 'Allegretto' Port San Luis, CA >> A true genius............... Lenny ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: AirEvacLen@aol.com Subject: Re: M_Boats: New Owner Date: 16 Jan 2001 21:12:28 EST In a message dated 01/16/2001 9:52:50 AM US Mountain Standard Time, foxman2@pacbell.net writes: << Hello All, I am a new Montgomery 15 owner. She is a 1982 and in great shape.It took me a year to find her but it was well worth the wait. >> Welcome aboard, Don.............. Lenny M-23#003 Sea Horse ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: Bob Olson Subject: M_Boats: Sailboat revival due to energy crisis? Date: 16 Jan 2001 20:48:24 -0800 Just thought I'd pose this question to the group since I just saw the news with dire predictions of higher energy prices due to OPEC cutting supply. Anyone think that sailboats will become popular again due to rising energy costs? Or do you think that "Dubya" will just order the boys to drill a few more wells and we'll continue to cruise along in our SUV's and gas-sucking yachts for a while longer? Anybody else think about this stuff? Or should I up my meds? Bob Olson M-15 #296 "Piccolo" ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: Fran Lebowitz Subject: Re: M_Boats: New Owner Date: 16 Jan 2001 21:06:45 -0700 Hello All, I am a new Montgomery 15 owner. She is a 1982 and in great shape.It took me > a year to find her but it was well worth the wait. Hi Don, Congratulations on finding your boat. Hope you have alot of fun with it! Fran M15 #236 ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: mikit Subject: Re: M_Boats: Sailboat revival due to energy crisis? Date: 17 Jan 2001 00:56:56 -0800 Perhaps we'll know the energy answer in 2002 when eccentric inventor Dean Kamen develops a functional Sterling engine and markets the currently secret project everyone is speculating about code named IT or Ginger. Ginger has been described as a high tech scooter consisting of a pole, platform and single wheel that is somehow gyroscopically and computer controlled. A kind of pole on a wheel that can't be pushed over. There have been ridiculous claims about this devise such as overnight, the world's fuel bills would plummet, pollution would drop, the oil-producing nations of the mideast would be transformed. (Sure it will) . Whatever the hype or fact is about this device, if it's from Dean Kamen it's bound to be interesting. Anyone who has seen Ibot, the wheelchair that can climb stairs and stand a person upright balanced on two wheels can't help but be impressed. The pole that can't be pushed over concept is one I have thought of in the past relating to a sailboat mast. What if I were to place a 400 pound gyro wheel low in the hull on a controllable gimbal. Pitch roll and heel could be controlled and my steering unit's tendency to head up in the puffs would be illuminated. Maybe a future winter project. With the boat in the shed for the winter there is all kinds of stuff to think about. Mike M17-369 >Just thought I'd pose this question to the group since I just saw the >news with dire predictions of higher energy prices due to OPEC cutting >supply. > >Anyone think that sailboats will become popular again due to rising >energy costs? Or do you think that "Dubya" will just order the boys to >drill a few more wells and we'll continue to cruise along in our SUV's >and gas-sucking yachts for a while longer? > >Anybody else think about this stuff? Or should I up my meds? > >Bob Olson >M-15 #296 "Piccolo" ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: Wilsometer@aol.com Subject: Re: M_Boats: New Owner Date: 17 Jan 2001 11:21:05 EST In a message dated 1/16/2001 8:52:50 AM, you wrote: <> Welcome! The Thetford 135 fits my 1991 M15 perfectly (no jamming/wedging required). I got the idea of installing the Thetford from photographs in the M15 brochure, as well as a M15 price/option list. There is another version of the same Thetford that has a small holding tank level indicator on the front. I was told by Thetford to forgo this option as it can get clogged, and cleaning it is, well, unpleasant. If you want to know how much "stuff" is in the tank, it is easy enough to open the sliding valve and look down (which you do each time you flush anyway!). Enjoy your new toy! Scott Grometer, M15 #478 "bebe" ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: Wilsometer@aol.com Subject: Re: M_Boats: Sailboat revival due to energy crisis? Date: 17 Jan 2001 11:38:20 EST In a message dated 1/16/2001 8:47:17 PM, you wrote: <> Bob, It would be nice if there were a trend toward sailboats, but I suspect it won't happen--at least not as result of fuel prices. One only has to look at the number of SUV's here in Northern California (more every day!) where gas is hovering at or above $2.00/gallon. I suspect that there is some kind of perverse pride on the part of the gentry here that says "Look at me, I can afford to burn four times the fuel that you can." I think that these must be the same individuals that have the monster power boats. Furthermore, I think that there is more to the sail vs. power equation--a sort of genetic predisposition, if you will--that determines who will sail and who will motor. When fuel becomes to expensive for even the wealthy, I suspect that the new generation of "power" boats will be powered by armies of carefully concealed (so as to not compromise any future chances of senate confirmation) illegal immigrants pedalling away below decks. Those of us who sail will continue to do so unhampered--excepting that we will be harassed by DEA agents, as our sails will be hemp rather than the petroleum derived dacron. Scott Grometer, M15 #478 "bebe" ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: sparsons@canby.com (Steve Parsons) Subject: Re: M_Boats: Sailboat revival due to energy crisis? Date: 17 Jan 2001 17:53:40 -0800 Bob, I've got the music for the "Kennebunkport Hillbilly", if it will help ease the pain. Steve >Just thought I'd pose this question to the group since I just saw the >news with dire predictions of higher energy prices due to OPEC cutting >supply. > >Anyone think that sailboats will become popular again due to rising >energy costs? Or do you think that "Dubya" will just order the boys to >drill a few more wells and we'll continue to cruise along in our SUV's >and gas-sucking yachts for a while longer? > >Anybody else think about this stuff? Or should I up my meds? > >Bob Olson >M-15 #296 "Piccolo" > > > ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: Bob Olson Subject: Re: M_Boats: Sailboat revival due to energy crisis? Date: 17 Jan 2001 20:15:25 -0800 LOL! This is priceless -- should be posted somewhere for posterity. Bob >Bob, >It would be nice if there were a trend toward sailboats, but I suspect it >won't happen--at least not as result of fuel prices. One only has to look >at >the number of SUV's here in Northern California (more every day!) where gas >is hovering at or above $2.00/gallon. I suspect that there is some kind of >perverse pride on the part of the gentry here that says "Look at me, I can >afford to burn four times the fuel that you can." I think that these must >be >the same individuals that have the monster power boats. >Furthermore, I think that there is more to the sail vs. power equation--a >sort of genetic predisposition, if you will--that determines who will sail >and who will motor. When fuel becomes to expensive for even the wealthy, I >suspect that the new generation of "power" boats will be powered by armies >of >carefully concealed (so as to not compromise any future chances of senate >confirmation) illegal immigrants pedalling away below decks. Those of us >who >sail will continue to do so unhampered--excepting that we will be harassed >by >DEA agents, as our sails will be hemp rather than the petroleum derived >dacron. >Scott Grometer, M15 #478 "bebe" > > ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: Bob Olson Subject: Re: M_Boats: Sailboat revival due to energy crisis? Date: 17 Jan 2001 20:16:09 -0800 Excuse my left coast ignorance but you lost me on this one... Bob >Bob, > >I've got the music for the "Kennebunkport Hillbilly", if it will help ease >the pain. > >Steve ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: John Fleming Subject: M_Boats: More M-17 Centerboard refurb ??'s Date: 17 Jan 2001 22:32:11 -0700 Hey, thanks you guys, Howard and Mike, for your comments about refinishing the centerboard. I checked out the Interlux web site to get their info on cast-iron coating, with the etching primer and Interprotect. West Marine sells Interprotect via the catalog, but not the Viny-Lux 353 primer, so I'm going to have to look around. I also searched out Rust-Grip on the WWW. I'll be darned if I can figure out who actually makes it. There seem to be lots of distributers and touts for it, though. It's some sort of two-part urethane concoction. According to the info I read, it could at least be a replacement for the Viny-Lux. They said it held up on a 2000-hr salt spray test, but there was nothing about immersion testing. So I wouldn't expect that it would be the primary moisture barrier. What makes it tricky is that if you can't start coating with Interprotect within one hour of sandblasting, you have to use some sort of primer. Since I don't really want to experiment with my boat, I'll go with the tried and true, Viny-Lux and Interprotect. OK, as I get ready to drop and remove the centerboard, I've got one more set of questions. It's about the pesky retaining tang at the stern end of the centerboard. Mine is broken off (a common condition), so I have a big knot in the pendant line that holds the centerboard up when it's down. (!!!) I read in previous M-17 discussions, that the theory was this broken tang could be replaced by drilling and tapping a hole in the same location, and sticking in a bolt. Has anybody actually done this? I see several problems: 1. since the cb is cast-iron, any bolt of SS or bronze will induce galvanic corrosion at the dis-similar metals junction. I'm sure there are methods to mitigate this, such as coating the bolt and drilled hole with silicone caulk before insertion; and making sure that both CB and bolt are completely covered with the Interprotect moisture barrier. 2. The CB may be too thin to accept a bolt hole for a bolt with enough strength to hold up a 300 lb centerboard, or whatever it weighs. Especially as I know, as the boat crashes through waves, I hear that CB knocking around in its trunk. The screwed-in bolt would have lots of opportunity for shock breaking and stress corrosion unless it's plenty beefy. 3. What grade and size of stainless steel bolt should I use? What hardness treatment? Too hard and it will break from shocks. Too soft and it will deform. 4. How deep should the bolt hole be? How much extension should it have to overlap the retaining pin? Thanks for any help you guys can provide. I'm planning on photographing and documenting all this, so as to provide the definitive how-to in the Newsletter and web page. Centerboard issues seem like such a common problem on M-17's, it's worth it to put this whole topic to bed. But then, what would we have to cuss about and chew the fat over? Regards, John Fleming M-17: "Star Cross'd" ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: John Fleming Subject: Re: M_Boats: Upper midwest M-17 for sale Date: 17 Jan 2001 23:00:40 -0700 Rachel wrote: > > Hi gang, > It's time to sell my M-17 I'm so sorry. Just remember Jerry's advice. After you buy the Brontosaur 26, and never sail because it's too much trouble, you'll look back on your M-17 as the best boat you've ever owned. How would I know, though, it's the only sailboat I've ever owned. :-) > By the way, 1981 was the first model year to have a number of design > improvements. I think the big one is the improved hull-to-deck joint. > Very strong and no leaks. It also results in a much more rigid > transom due to the u-shaped section at the top. It also has the wet > locker for cockpit drainage and storage of gas, oil, etc. The > new-style frameless windows were added. There were a few other > changes made, but I think those are the major ones. The galley was removed, and replaced with the 2nd quarter-berth. Also teak toe rails. It's those teak rails that make the distinctive visual difference between the 1st and 2nd gen M-17's. Even though the joint is different, it's the rails that you notice. > * Nice looking, custom-made stern pulpit Wish I had one. > When I bought the boat, it wasn't in too bad a condition, but I'm the > belt-and-suspenders type that has to know everything is perfect I know what you mean. > I was turning mine into a big project! Yep, been there, done that. > Here's what I've done: > > * Buffed entire hull, cockpit, and deck with a professional buffer On my list of things to do. You really did have tons of time to put into this. > * Protected the deck core at every penetration. Done that too. I have a few more to do. You are even more finicky than me about it, with all that dis-similar hole sizes and so forth. > * Removed and refinished teak companionway trim - used 12 coats of > Epifanes varnish - they really gleam! I oil mine. Are they teak? Mine feel and look like mahogany. > * Painted inside of cabin Now that's too much! It's already painted! :-) > * Wired bow pulpit for future bicolor light to get lights a bit higher > and reduce power consumption (only one bulb, not two). Wire runs > inside pulpit. Ha! Did that too! Got an Aqua signal bi-color up there. > * Some of the trim and fittings aren't reinstalled yet. I did re-bed > and reinstall the bow pulpit and the chain plates. I still have to do the chain plates. My bow pulpit had some de-lamination from water leakage. > * The centerboard could do with a clean up (it's the cast iron one) > and a new pendant (line that pulls it up). That's my very next project. > * A couple of the stays may need replacing. Did that when I rebuilt the mast. > > The boat is now located in NW Wisconsin. If you're interested and want > to talk further, contact me at gavia77@hotmail.com and we can take it > from there. Thanks --- Rachel Good luck on your new boat, Rachel. Think about asking for $5K. Even at that price, it should sell like a snap and be a steal for some lucky soul. Does long-term mean blue-water around the world long-term? Regards, John Fleming 1982 M-17: "Star Cross'd" ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: John Fleming Subject: Re: M_Boats: Genius frees centerboard Date: 17 Jan 2001 23:05:26 -0700 John Crews wrote: > > A few squirts [of dish soap] down the > rope through the tiny space between the rope and the hole in the fiberglass > where the rope goes into the centerboard trunk and, clunk, the centerboard > dropped into place with a minimum of working up and down. > > Regards, > John Crews > M17 'Allegretto' > Port San Luis, CA Hey John, Did it bind before you epoxied? Was it worse or better afterwards? Does the soap application have to be periodically repeated? What kind of paint did you use? How many coats? etc. etc. Regards, John Fleming M-17: "Star Cross'd" ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: Howard A Subject: Re: M_Boats: More M-17 Centerboard refurb ??'s Date: 18 Jan 2001 06:52:22 -0600 John Fleming wrote: > Hey, thanks you guys, Howard and Mike, for your comments about > refinishing the centerboard. I checked out the Interlux web site to get > their info on cast-iron coating, with the etching primer and > Interprotect. West Marine sells Interprotect via the catalog, but not > the Viny-Lux 353 primer, so I'm going to have to look around. I am pretty sure I got my quart of Viny-Lux at the local West Marine. It is two parts...353 and 354, but they are sold together. And it doesn't look like much when you put it on..just gives a yellow haze to the metal...but only use the one coat...do not overcoat. If not, it is in the Defender catalog...item #750016. But I have not had good luck ordering from Defender. I have placed about 4 orders from them, and they have botched all of them. But they do have some things nobody else seems to have. Like my 9# Delta anchor. So I keep going back. If you wind up having to order any of this, beware of the shipping cost. These items are rated as a hazardous material, and shipping may cost more than the item you are ordering. As far as I can tell, they don't anything different to ship it, they just charge you more. If you are careful, you may be able to get by with one quart of the 2000E primer. I used 4 coats, and to do that you have to split a quart into 4 cups..and keep the primer part well stirred to keep it consistent. One cup should be enough to cover both sides of the board. I wasn't careful, so I had to use two quarts. > > > I also searched out Rust-Grip on the WWW. I'll be darned if I can > figure out who actually makes it. There seem to be lots of distributers > and touts for it, though. It's some sort of two-part urethane > concoction. According to the info I read, it could at least be a > replacement for the Viny-Lux. They said it held up on a 2000-hr salt > spray test, but there was nothing about immersion testing. So I > wouldn't expect that it would be the primary moisture barrier. > My engineer buddy here locally works for a company that is doing corrosion research for the Navy, and they have some stuff that sounds like what you are describing. We were going to do my centerboard with it as a test, but it has to be baked on. We couldn't find an oven to big enough to handle it. He thought the two part epoxy stuff (the 2000E) with micro plates was about as good as an amateur could do. If the tang you are describing is the small tooth on the back of the CB that rests on the stop pin, mine was enhanced by the guy who welded the crack in my CB. He put built up the area with cast iron weld. I was told the trick to welding cast iron is that the CB has to be heated to red hot..almost to the point of melting and then the weld will fuse. Otherwise, it just sits on top of the metal like so much slag, and can be chipped off. Don't know how well it held up. Won't know for a few more months until I drop the board to see what it looks like. My CB also used to clunk around down there...until I painted it. Since then it hasn't made a peep. It's hard to believe that a little rust and gunk could cause enough friction to lift it, but it did. Probably slowed the boat down some too. Still holding out hope that a bronze replacement board can be had for less than GNP of some small third world country :-) Howard M17, #278 ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: Peter Jacobs Subject: Re: M_Boats: More M-17 Centerboard refurb ??'s Date: 18 Jan 2001 06:59:54 -0800 Speaking of baking on ... would powder coating be an option? It sure is a tough coating for the bikkes I've built. Just a thought.BTW, I have the fibreglass board :) -Peter- -- ======================== Peter Jacobs, M17 #416 "Enfin" Victoria BC Canada http://www.islandnet.com/~pjacobs/homepage.htm ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: LBarkhuff@cs.com Subject: M_Boats: Who was that??? Date: 18 Jan 2001 10:04:04 EST I got a couple well needed days off, so we did a sneak down to Dana Point in Cal this week. Stopped by the MONTGOMERY plant (formerly NorSea) to say Hi to Bob and Jerry. Got to see the future of the M23, and I must say she will be a great thing....sure is different from the first, and I think the new owners are going to be most pleased.... Went over to Dana Point and say a shippy little 15 motoring out of the Harbor. I couldn't read the name on the transom, but I did not see John Fell's boat in its usual place in the lot. Was that you John? Looked like it could be a nice day for a sail..... Larry Barkhuff ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: Bob Subject: Re: M_Boats: Who was that??? It was Don Fox! Date: 18 Jan 2001 07:45:38 -0800 Hey Larry It was nice seeing you and your wife. Your always welcome at the boatshop. (Nor'Sea and Montgomery..hehehe) I would guess the Montgomery 15 you saw at Dana Point was Don Fox's new '82 model. He's on this list and introduced himself a few days ago. He's a great guy and one of the lucky people that live aboard FULL time. I met Don a few years ago while my daughter and his daughter were on a small beach (un-covered by low tide) in the Marina, against the breakwater. Its not a real beach, but during the summer low tide uncovers a football field size beach that people with inflatables and small craft swarm to. A typical sunday afternoon will have several hundred people with dozens of boats pulled up on the sand. Great fun! Don lives aboard a beautiful GRAND BANKS. A very nice and proper vessel. I stopped by to visit his new Montgomery 15 the other day and it is a very clean little ship. He was extremely happy to have found it and he's probably just having a blast with her in our local waters, considering the weather has been mild. I did talk to the other 15 owner, John Fell, the other day. He's off the list because he's too busy selling million dollar homes here on the coast. His job as a realtor is taking up lots of time he says and will re-join the list when his work slows down. He's also coming to the boatshop soon to visit with Jerry and I and look at the Montgomery 23 Offshore Cutter project. Thanks for the visit Larry! Fair winds Bob Nor'Sea (949) 489-8227 LBarkhuff@cs.com wrote: > I got a couple well needed days off, so we did a sneak down to Dana Point > in Cal this week. Stopped by the MONTGOMERY plant (formerly NorSea) to say > Hi to Bob and Jerry. Got to see the future of the M23, and I must say she > will be a great thing....sure is different from the first, and I think the > new owners are going to be most pleased.... > > Went over to Dana Point and say a shippy little 15 motoring out of the > Harbor. I couldn't read the name on the transom, but I did not see John > Fell's boat in its usual place in the lot. Was that you John? Looked like > it could be a nice day for a sail..... > > Larry Barkhuff > > > > ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: The Foxman Subject: Re: M_Boats: Who was that??? It was Don Fox! Date: 18 Jan 2001 08:54:25 -0800 Yes Bob that was me. I was just playing in the harbor. I am hoping to take her out for her first sail this wkend, weather permitting. Thanks for turning me on to this group of owners. It has been allot of help and answered allot of questions. See you in the harbor:) Don ----- Original Message ----- Sent: Thursday, January 18, 2001 7:45 AM > Hey Larry > It was nice seeing you and your wife. Your always welcome at the boatshop. > (Nor'Sea and Montgomery..hehehe) > > I would guess the Montgomery 15 you saw at Dana Point was Don Fox's > new '82 model. > He's on this list and introduced himself a few days ago. > He's a great guy and one of the lucky people that live aboard FULL time. > > I met Don a few years ago while my daughter and his daughter were on a small > beach (un-covered by low tide) in the Marina, against the breakwater. > Its not a real beach, but during the summer low tide uncovers a football > field size beach that people with inflatables and small craft swarm to. > A typical sunday afternoon will have several hundred people with dozens of > boats pulled up on the sand. Great fun! > > Don lives aboard a beautiful GRAND BANKS. A very nice and proper > vessel. > > I stopped by to visit his new Montgomery 15 the other day and it is a > very clean > little ship. He was extremely happy to have found it and he's probably > just having > a blast with her in our local waters, considering the weather has been mild. > > I did talk to the other 15 owner, John Fell, the other day. He's off the > list because > he's too busy selling million dollar homes here on the coast. His job > as a realtor is > taking up lots of time he says and will re-join the list when his work > slows down. > > He's also coming to the boatshop soon to visit with Jerry and I and look > at the > Montgomery 23 Offshore Cutter project. > > Thanks for the visit Larry! > > Fair winds > > Bob > Nor'Sea (949) 489-8227 > > > > LBarkhuff@cs.com wrote: > > > I got a couple well needed days off, so we did a sneak down to Dana Point > > in Cal this week. Stopped by the MONTGOMERY plant (formerly NorSea) to say > > Hi to Bob and Jerry. Got to see the future of the M23, and I must say she > > will be a great thing....sure is different from the first, and I think the > > new owners are going to be most pleased.... > > > > Went over to Dana Point and say a shippy little 15 motoring out of the > > Harbor. I couldn't read the name on the transom, but I did not see John > > Fell's boat in its usual place in the lot. Was that you John? Looked like > > it could be a nice day for a sail..... > > > > Larry Barkhuff > > > > > > > > > > ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: LBarkhuff@cs.com Subject: Re: M_Boats: Who was that??? It was Don Fox! Date: 18 Jan 2001 16:33:22 EST Foxman, the boat looks good. Would you believe my wife can hear well enough to hear you talking on the cell phone.....Larry from Las Vegas ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: Howard A Subject: Re: M_Boats: More M-17 Centerboard refurb ??'s Date: 18 Jan 2001 18:00:49 -0600 I checked the West Marine catalog today, and they do sell the Viny-Lux 353/354. West Marine Model# 159277 To avoid the shipping cost, if you have a local store, have them order it for you to pick up at the store, if they don't have it in stock. Howard ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: John Fleming Subject: Re: M_Boats: More M-17 Centerboard refurb ??'s Date: 18 Jan 2001 18:17:20 -0700 Howard A wrote: > > I checked the West Marine catalog today, and they do sell the Viny-Lux 353/354. > > West Marine Model# 159277 Oooh, a gotcha!! I couldn't find my current paper West Marine catalog in my not-yet-completely-moved-in house, so I looked for Viny-Lux in the West Marine web page online catalog. Since it wasn't there, I assumed ... Thanks for the help. Regards, John Fleming 1982 M-17: "Star Cross'd" ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: Fran Lebowitz Subject: Re: M_Boats: Sailboat revival due to energy crisis? Date: 18 Jan 2001 19:26:24 -0700 Wilsometer@aol.com wrote: > It would be nice if there were a trend toward sailboats, but I suspect it > won't happen... Sad but true. I think power boat owners want something easy to use, loud, fast and splashy. >we will be harassed by > DEA agents, as our sails ( and ropes) will be hemp rather than the petroleum derived > dacron. Too right, Scott. But at least with the hemp sails, our boats will really be 'smokin! Fran ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: mikit Subject: Re: M_Boats: More M-17 Centerboard refurb ??'s Date: 18 Jan 2001 19:50:25 -0800 Unfortunately there is a problem with cast iron and the powder coat process . It has to do with the many voids present in cast iron and the heating process. The powder coating company I approached would not attempt cast iron. Said he had a disaster once when he tried it. For just about any other metal surface including aluminum it's a very good option however. Mike M-17-369 >Speaking of baking on ... would powder coating be an option? It sure is >a tough coating for the bikkes I've built. > >Just a thought.BTW, I have the fibreglass board :) >-Peter- >-- >======================== >Peter Jacobs, M17 #416 "Enfin" >Victoria BC Canada >http://www.islandnet.com/~pjacobs/homepage.htm ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: John Fleming Subject: Re: M_Boats: Sailboat revival due to energy crisis? Date: 19 Jan 2001 00:01:59 -0700 > Wilsometer@aol.com wrote: > > It would be nice if there were a trend toward sailboats, but I suspect it > won't happen... Not ever! Power boats are an expression of virility, the acquisition of and use and display of power. The noise and speed is the object of it all: both internally, as an immediate and visceral validation of self, and externally, to establish by force one's hierarchical place in society . For some (for most), that is who they are and must be. To see, feel, and hear a power boat is to know ourselves as giants striding across the world. Powerboats are genetics and heredity and physical survival of the fittest. Nobody ever puts a slinky model in a scant bikini on the foredeck of a sailboat at a boat show ... Sailboats are the alternate, more recent development. They are an expression of memetics: pure idea, crystallized into competing expressions of thought. They are living in the world, not on it. They are not expressions of forcing the world to be what we wish and desire, but instead seek to derive, to maximize, useful work from the nature of the world itself. Sailboats are beautiful and elegant because the world is beautiful and elegant, as it must be since we have evolved to live in it. It is a deep truth to say that a sailboat (or an airplane, as Kelly Johnson said) sails like it looks. As such, sailboats are for those to whom ideas, not genetics, are paramount. And there just aren't that many people like that. That's because the substrate of intelligence is such a recent development, and not yet proven as a long-term survival strategy, that it must necessarily be less dominant than simple physical survival. I should caveat, though that when I say sailboats are the more recent development, I mean the modern pleasure vessel, not the working boats before the days of power. As far as commerce and trade go, the technological advance of first external and then infernal combustion is always superior to sitting becalmed, or being tossed onto a lee shore or a reef. I should also caveat that I'm not trying to diss anybody. I'm just having fun. My dear brother has a 26-foot powerboat up in Puget Sound. And he ain't no slouch in the thinking department. After all, who really knows why we do and like things? We just do, that's all. And it should be enough. I'm also not dissing anyone who believes that we are here and what we are is by the grace of a Deity. You should be able to replace evolutionary theory with the Deity, and my thesis will still hold up. So to summarize, powerboats are directed purpose, and sailboats are directed thought. More people prefer power, that's all. (But I babble ... and my mouth runneth over.) Regards, John Fleming 1982 M-17: "Star Cross'd" ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: John Fleming Subject: M_Boats: Re: More M-17 Centerboard refurb: the tang/tooth Date: 19 Jan 2001 00:30:24 -0700 Hey Howard, Howard A wrote: > My engineer buddy here locally works for a company that is doing corrosion > research for the Navy, and they have some stuff that sounds like what you are > describing. We were going to do my centerboard with it as a test, but it has to > be baked on. Baked on? Eek! I didn't notice that from my WWW random-walking of virtual cyberspace. I'll have to once again jack into the matrix and and be tossed by waves and winds far across the Cyber sea onto distant shores where the natives speak in curious tongues. Perhaps I may find a buried treasure map that leads me to the land of Product Data Sheets. > > If the tang you are describing is the small tooth on the back of the CB that > rests on the stop pin, Yeah, that's it. > mine was enhanced by the guy who welded the crack in my > CB. He put built up the area with cast iron weld. I was told the trick to > welding cast iron is that the CB has to be heated to red hot..almost to the > point of melting and then the weld will fuse. I'll see if the yard can do that. You know, that might be superior to the drill, tap, and caulk solution. However, now I would have to find somebody who knows what they are doing and schlep the CB to yet another industrial site. More trouble. But since the boat is in the Long Beach/San Pedro area, it shouldn't be too hard to find somebody. > My CB also used to clunk around down there...until I painted it. Since then it > hasn't made a peep. My clunks came when the boat was being tossed about (usually by power boat wakes in little wind) and the CB wasn't under hydrodynamic force. I never hear it when I'm going upwind in a stiff breeze, because then it's solidy under tension. Maybe it's that my CB tooth/tang broke, or the pivot hole is enlarged. > Still holding out hope that a bronze replacement board can be had for less than > GNP of some small third world country :-) I'm beginning to conclude that there's just no substitute for the peace of mind that a fixed keel gives you. Of course, though, all those keels are held on by keel bolts that sit in low-oxygen bilge water and get stress and crevice corrosion, so it's not like there are any kind of no-worries keels. Cheers, John Fleming ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: Doug Kelch Subject: M_Boats: Chesapeak Rondevouz Date: 19 Jan 2001 21:30:37 -0500 This year looks like a good one - Best case count as of 1/19/01 is 7 M17s 5 M15s 1 M23 1 Nimble 24 1 non Montgomery boat Jerry Montgomery won't decide if he can come until sometime in March. The first organizational email went out today, so if you didn't get it let me know. The more the merrier! Bob Egg do you want to come for the photo opportunities? Do you know any N'Sea owners who might want to join us as the "Mother Ship"? Lets challenge the left coast to get a tradition started out that way!! If you want on this years planning list send me an email directly as this will be the last Mlist info until May. Thanks Doug Kelch dkelch@cox.rr.com "Seas the Day" ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: Fran Lebowitz Subject: Re: M_Boats: Sailboat revival due to energy crisis? Date: 19 Jan 2001 19:43:02 -0700 John Fleming wrote: > As such, sailboats are for those to whom ideas, not genetics, are > paramount. And there just aren't that many people like that. That's > because the substrate of intelligence is such a recent development, and > not yet proven as a long-term survival strategy, that it must > necessarily be less dominant than simple physical survival. Interesting observations, John, and very well put. Fran M15 #236 ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: "Morris, Giles" Subject: RE: M_Boats: Chesapeak Rondevouz Date: 19 Jan 2001 22:14:41 -0600 >5 M15s Actually, one of those might well be a Vancouver 25. I know parts of the area reasonably well, if I can find information for anybody (I'll check ramps in Deale this weekend if the weather isn't too miserable). Giles Morris Arlington VA Montgomery 15 #264 "Umiaq" vancouver 25 #002 Dolphin Sundry kayaks ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: John Fleming Subject: Re: M_Boats: Sailboat revival due to energy crisis? Date: 19 Jan 2001 20:39:32 -0700 Fran Lebowitz wrote: > > Interesting observations, John, and very well put. > Fran > M15 #236 Yeah, well Fran, it's unfortunate that a pseudo-intellectual argument can sound cogent and rational, and yet still be absolute nonsense. I guess it's what I sort of believe, but I'm not sure at all it's true. After all, my only empirical evidence for the above was that smart-aleck remark about boat shows. But it's how I feel about it when I sit in my pretty little Montgomery on a windless day and get tossed about by powerboat wakes. And then when the weather comes up, all the powerboats scurry for shore, and us sailors own the lake/ocean, and have a blast, with the wind in our faces and spray over the bow. I was also trying to keep in the spirit of the previous posts, about hemp sails and such, just coming at it from an unexpected angle. Cheers, John Fleming 1982 M-17: "Star Cross'd" ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: AirEvacLen@aol.com Subject: Re: M_Boats: Sailboat revival due to energy crisis? Date: 20 Jan 2001 10:02:59 EST In a message dated 01/19/2001 8:40:20 PM US Mountain Standard Time, dlebowitz@sprintmail.com writes: << As such, sailboats are for those to whom ideas, not genetics, are > paramount. And there just aren't that many people like that >> But if you're the outgoing President you can tell the truth on your last day in office........"I LIED TO YOU ! " Lenny ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: Michael L Bowden Subject: M_Boats: SCA M17 review Date: 20 Jan 2001 11:23:48 -0600 Hey Listers, A very glowing review of the M17 is in the current issue of Small Craft Advisor. Makes me even prouder to be a M17 owner. Mpls boat show this weekend, Strictly Sail Chicago in two weeks, think spring! Michael "Bones" Bowden M17 #92 ________________________________________________________________ GET INTERNET ACCESS FROM JUNO! Juno offers FREE or PREMIUM Internet access for less! Join Juno today! For your FREE software, visit: http://dl.www.juno.com/get/tagj. ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: Doug Kelch Subject: Re: M_Boats: Chesapeak Rondevouz Date: 20 Jan 2001 12:59:43 -0500 Giles, I used my CD25 on last years Rondevouz and was outsailed by an M17. If Jerry Montgomery uses my M15 I will take the CD25 again. I actually missed sailing the M15 last year because of its shallow water ability. I would love to see your Vancouver 25. Where is it located this winter? My CD25 Moon Shadow is at Herrington Harbor North either E1 or F1. Doug "Morris, Giles" wrote: > >5 M15s > > Actually, one of those might well be a Vancouver 25. > > I know parts of the area reasonably well, if I can find information for > anybody (I'll check ramps in Deale this weekend if the weather isn't too > miserable). > > Giles Morris > Arlington VA > Montgomery 15 #264 "Umiaq" > vancouver 25 #002 Dolphin > Sundry kayaks ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: "Theo Petron" Subject: M_Boats: Winches Date: 20 Jan 2001 11:56:26 -0600 Has anyone tore apart their winches? My M23 has Australian Barlow brand 15's and 16's. They seem real gummed up, probably from the California salt environs and possibly lack of upkeep from previous owner--probably both!!. I could really use a book or something before I go tearing apart. It's about 6° here in St. Paul, MN today, but just seeing the old boat makes one feel warm inside! Dittos on the Spring thing Bones!! Theo M23 "Sails Increas" ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: TOMMYVAL@aol.com Subject: Re: M_Boats: Chesapeak Rondevouz Date: 20 Jan 2001 13:05:26 EST --part1_df.f46649a.279b2d66_boundary Content-Type: text/plain; charset="US-ASCII" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit How about if Bob tows the new 23 to the Chesapeake Bay Rondevous. What a great way to announce her arrival to all Chesapeake Bay sailors. I would think she would be a perfect Bay and beyond boat. Maybe "Spin Sheet" a local sailing rag or Chesapeake Bay magazine could do a review and on the water trial. Great opportunity to get maximum exposure for the new 23 and the 15 and the 17's. Being in Annapolis (America's Sailing Capital) and with the large expected turnout we could make quite a splash. Just a thought Gary --part1_df.f46649a.279b2d66_boundary Content-Type: text/html; charset="US-ASCII" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit How about if Bob tows the new 23 to the Chesapeake Bay Rondevous. What a
great way to announce her arrival to all Chesapeake Bay sailors. I would
think she would be a perfect Bay and beyond boat.
Maybe "Spin Sheet" a local sailing rag or Chesapeake Bay magazine could do a
review and on the water trial. Great opportunity to get maximum exposure for
the new 23 and the 15 and the 17's.
Being in Annapolis (America's Sailing Capital) and with the large expected
turnout we could make quite a splash.

Just a thought

Gary --part1_df.f46649a.279b2d66_boundary-- ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: TOMMYVAL@aol.com Subject: Re: M_Boats: SCA M17 review Date: 20 Jan 2001 13:10:09 EST --part1_10.7add647.279b2e81_boundary Content-Type: text/plain; charset="US-ASCII" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Bones, for those of us who do not subcribe to SCA do you think it would be possible to have someone post the M17 review to the bulletin board. I'd like to see it if possible. TIA gary --part1_10.7add647.279b2e81_boundary Content-Type: text/html; charset="US-ASCII" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Bones,

for those of us who do not subcribe to SCA do you think it would be possible
to have someone post the M17 review to the bulletin board. I'd like to see it
if possible.
TIA

gary --part1_10.7add647.279b2e81_boundary-- ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: LBarkhuff@cs.com Subject: Re: M_Boats: Chesapeak Rondevouz Date: 20 Jan 2001 14:57:23 EST Hey Bones, I hear you are interested in the new 23......You are going to drool over this boat.....It might even float in the drool, there will be so much.....I have spent the last couple days on my 23, and I could even be forced to cheat on this marriage.......Larry ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: Doug Kelch Subject: Re: M_Boats: Winches Date: 20 Jan 2001 16:01:47 -0500 Theo, I am almost positive the winchs on my CD25 are Barlow 15s. They are amazingly simple. The hex key in the center is not metric. Removce the center bolt with the hex key and lift the top collar off, then carefully slide the outer tube off. At this point everything is exposed and easy to clean. You need to be carefull when removing the outer tube that the springs and pawls don't get lost. They should stay in unless something is broken or the grease dryness/stiffness pulls them out. I had found a good web page but lost it somehow. I think I found the web page by searching the message archives at the Cape Dory site. http://www.toolworks.com/capedory/ I need to replace some springs and pawls so if you find the page forward it to me. Thanks Doug "Seas the Day" Theo Petron wrote: > Has anyone tore apart their winches? My M23 has Australian Barlow brand > 15's and 16's. They seem real gummed up, probably from the California > salt environs and possibly lack of upkeep from previous owner--probably > both!!. I could really use a book or something before I go tearing > apart. It's about 6° here in St. Paul, MN today, but just seeing the old > boat makes one feel warm inside! > Dittos on the Spring thing Bones!! > > Theo > M23 "Sails Increas" ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: Saltm17@aol.com Subject: Re: M_Boats: Winches Date: 20 Jan 2001 16:20:20 EST Theo, I've cleaned my winches a couple of times. The procedure is fairly simple There is a clip around the center of the winch. It is a couple of turns, so just ease the end back and hang on to it as you can work it out of the groove. Then take the wide ring (with Barlow on it) off. The entire drum can be lifted out then. Unlike most winches, there are no tiny springs and clips to worry about. Once you have the drum out you will see that there are two pawls attached to the drum,. A simple arrangement, but it sure makes maintenance easier, (no long searches in the gass for those $#*#@ springs and clips). Even so, it would be best to do this on a driveway in case you drop the clip or the ring (one ring is under my boat right now .... in 24 feet of water. I have a friend who scuba dives, and he will retrieve it for me when the water warms up a bit). I clean the base of the drum and the post with a toothbrush and some regular degreaser. I then lightly lubricate the pawls with a light winch oil, and replace the drum, ring and clip. It seems to work fairly well. I've only had two winches get that "gummed-up feeling (there are 4 winches on my boat), and once cleaned they haven't needed any additional maintenance. I do keep them covered when not in use. West Marine has a winch repair/maintenance kit that comes with a "How to.." booklet on winches, as well as grease and oil. It helped me a lot when I first had to do some winch work. To reinstall the drum, you have to align the pawls with the grooves. This may take a bit of working with it to get it right, but once they are aligned the drum sitd down easily. Replace the ring and clip and you're done. I Good Luck John "Miss T" M17 # 372 ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: Doug King Subject: M_Boats: New stuff on MSOG Date: 20 Jan 2001 18:02:18 -0500 Well, I got a little burst of energy (and some new info) so as long as I'm sitting here watching a lazy and indecisive rain/snow/sleet/ice fall, I've added a few things. 1) Congratulations! We just went over 100 owners in the registry. Don't know why that's important, but I kinda set it as a milestone. Anybody have any suggestions for improvement? 2) Now that we've got a little more info, I've reorganized the info on the boats by model. Look under "The Montgomery Line of Sailboats" on the menu. 3) I've taken some of Bob Eeg's recent posts on the new 23 cutter as well as some photos of work in progress and created a new section under the heading above. I'll add to it as info comes in from Bob, as we've arranged. There's also a small picture of the 2001 model of the 17 on the M-17 page. Too small to see the optional bronze ports, though. 4) The new reorganization has the M-17 fairly well represented, but we could use a lot more. The sections on the M-15 and M-23 are downright puny. If anybody has additional info on any of the models and want to send it to me, I'll scan and send it right back. Thanks to Dennis Chapman for new stuff on the 23, including the 1980 article from Cruising World (Shhh). 5) I'm talking with Bob about a few other things and will let you know if it pans out. 6) We could all benefit from the work that some of you are doing and posting to the list on specific subjects. The recent discussions on centerboard maintenance and bottom prep and such shouldn't get lost in the archives. As long as you've done the work and done the search, why not just put together a little list (a page or two) of the useful info and send it to the MSOG? You can just make up appropriate questions/headings to match the answers/info. I'll put it into a useful format. 7) I'm going to put up a little blurb called "To Contribute" on the menu for anyone wanting to contribute. Suggestions on scanning and such will make it easier for anyone who wants to send info. 8) We need to get an owner named Ward so we can talk him into naming his boat "Ward's Montgomery". As always, any suggestions for improvement or corrections to the MSOG are welcome. Thanks, Doug Doug King M-17 #404 "Vixen" MSOG Web site: http://msog.brinet.net mailto:msog@brinet.net ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: "Morris, Giles" Subject: RE: M_Boats: Chesapeak Rondevouz Date: 20 Jan 2001 20:23:43 -0600 >Where is it located this winter? Sitting (looking rather forlorn while the ice is there) on D-dock at Shipwright harbor -- just across the creek from HHN. If the snow isn't too deep tomorrow I'll be going over to finish off the lazyjacks and to think about spring. Giles ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: "Morris, Giles" Subject: RE: M_Boats: Winches Date: 20 Jan 2001 20:27:21 -0600 >Has anyone tore apart their winches? If they're multi-speed, then please ignore this. If they're single speed then they're probably as easy to maintain as my Lewmars. You might consider getting a repair kit, which will include grease and, more importantly, instructions, springs and pawls. I forget who took over the spare parts when Barlow left this country, but a web search would turn it up. Mine were pretty easy to fettle. Giles Morris Arlington VA Montgomery 15 #264 "Umiaq" Vancouver 25 #002 Dolphin Sundry kayaks ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: Doug King Subject: M_Boats: Barlow Spares Date: 20 Jan 2001 21:53:27 -0500 Found this earlier this afternoon when the subject came up. Don't know if they're the only people, but they were the ones that came up on a search. I've added them to the MSOG links database under "Equipment": THE AUSTRALIAN YACHT WINCH CO. http://www.arco-winches.com/ Despite the URL, they are also Barient/Barlow dealers. Doug King M-17 #404 "Vixen" MSOG Web site: http://msog.brinet.net mailto:msog@brinet.net ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: Richard Lane Subject: Re: M_Boats: New stuff on MSOG Date: 20 Jan 2001 20:11:26 -0800 On the eighth item, better be quick, M Wards are going out of business. Incidentally when I first registered my 23 the DMV clerk put M Wards as the manufacturer. Dick Doug King wrote: > 8) We need to get an owner named Ward so we can talk him into naming his > boat "Ward's Montgomery". ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: TOMMYVAL@aol.com Subject: Re: M_Boats: Chesapeak Rondevouz Date: 21 Jan 2001 10:20:27 EST --part1_58.620aceb.279c583b_boundary Content-Type: text/plain; charset="US-ASCII" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Tod, The pics of the 23 are outstanding, this is going to be a special boat and I would think there is a segment of the marketplace that will get real excited about the 23. I cant wait to see the final product and some pics of the interior. You are right on the mark, when people see a real boat, built to high standards and designed by one of the best, they will get behind the 23. I sure do hope we get a couple of them on the Chesapeake. Look forward to seeing you at years rondevous. take care Gary --part1_58.620aceb.279c583b_boundary Content-Type: text/html; charset="US-ASCII" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Tod,

The pics of the 23 are outstanding, this is going to be a special boat and I
would think there is a segment of the marketplace that will get real excited
about the 23.
I cant wait to see the final product and some pics of the interior. You are
right on the mark, when people see a real boat, built to high standards and
designed by one of the best, they will get behind the 23.

I sure do hope we get a couple of them on the Chesapeake. Look forward to
seeing you at years rondevous.

take care

Gary --part1_58.620aceb.279c583b_boundary-- ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: AirEvacLen@aol.com Subject: Re: M_Boats: Winches Date: 21 Jan 2001 11:47:03 EST In a message dated 01/20/2001 11:03:20 AM US Mountain Standard Time, theop@uswest.net writes: << Has anyone tore apart their winches? My M23 has Australian Barlow brand 15's and 16's >> Theo Pretty straight foreward stuff.......Remove allen head bolt......drum lifts right off. Pawls and bearings are easy to get to......just remember which way the spring seats. WM has a pretty good winch lube in a tube. Takes about an hour to clean and lube each one........ Lenny ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: "Thomas Wilkinson" Subject: M_Boats: M23 Date: 21 Jan 2001 10:44:25 -0800 This is a multi-part message in MIME format. ------=_NextPart_000_000A_01C08397.1F58FD80 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Bob Is the M23 going to have an interior liner or is the interior going to = be built up on the hull? Tom M17 Obsessus =20 ------=_NextPart_000_000A_01C08397.1F58FD80 Content-Type: text/html; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable
Bob
Is the M23 going to have an interior = liner or is=20 the interior going to be built up on the hull?
Tom
M17 Obsessus
  
------=_NextPart_000_000A_01C08397.1F58FD80-- ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: LBarkhuff@cs.com Subject: Re: M_Boats: New stuff on MSOG Date: 21 Jan 2001 14:07:14 EST Re what Dick said about the registration for the 23 as Mont Ward boat, you would not believe what I had to do to correct this little error......Larry ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: sparsons@canby.com (Steve Parsons) Subject: Re: M_Boats: Sailboat revival due to energy crisis? Date: 21 Jan 2001 11:34:50 -0800 The new one can start his administration that way, too. Or, did he lie to himself, saying "I won..."? >In a message dated 01/19/2001 8:40:20 PM US Mountain Standard Time, >dlebowitz@sprintmail.com writes: > ><< As such, sailboats are for those to whom ideas, not genetics, are > > paramount. And there just aren't that many people like that >> > >But if you're the outgoing President you can tell the truth on your last day >in office........"I LIED TO YOU ! " > >Lenny > > > ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: sparsons@canby.com (Steve Parsons) Subject: Re: M_Boats: New stuff on MSOG Date: 21 Jan 2001 11:39:26 -0800 Doug, Just in case we haven't said "Thank you" in a while, THANK YOU for your efforts. You and Keith are both greatly appreciated for keeping this band of scoundrels in communication. Steve > >Well, I got a little burst of energy (and some new info) so as long as I'm >sitting here watching a lazy and indecisive rain/snow/sleet/ice fall, I've >added a few things. > >1) Congratulations! We just went over 100 owners in the registry. Don't >know why that's important, but I kinda set it as a milestone. Anybody have >any suggestions for improvement? > >2) Now that we've got a little more info, I've reorganized the info on the >boats by model. Look under "The Montgomery Line of Sailboats" on the menu. > >3) I've taken some of Bob Eeg's recent posts on the new 23 cutter as well >as some photos of work in progress and created a new section under the >heading above. I'll add to it as info comes in from Bob, as we've arranged. >There's also a small picture of the 2001 model of the 17 on the M-17 page. >Too small to see the optional bronze ports, though. > >4) The new reorganization has the M-17 fairly well represented, but we >could use a lot more. The sections on the M-15 and M-23 are downright puny. >If anybody has additional info on any of the models and want to send it to >me, I'll scan and send it right back. Thanks to Dennis Chapman for new >stuff on the 23, including the 1980 article from Cruising World (Shhh). > >5) I'm talking with Bob about a few other things and will let you know if >it pans out. > >6) We could all benefit from the work that some of you are doing and >posting to the list on specific subjects. The recent discussions on >centerboard maintenance and bottom prep and such shouldn't get lost in the >archives. As long as you've done the work and done the search, why not just >put together a little list (a page or two) of the useful info and send it >to the MSOG? You can just make up appropriate questions/headings to match >the answers/info. I'll put it into a useful format. > >7) I'm going to put up a little blurb called "To Contribute" on the menu >for anyone wanting to contribute. Suggestions on scanning and such will >make it easier for anyone who wants to send info. > >8) We need to get an owner named Ward so we can talk him into naming his >boat "Ward's Montgomery". > >As always, any suggestions for improvement or corrections to the MSOG are >welcome. > >Thanks, > >Doug > > >Doug King >M-17 #404 "Vixen" > >MSOG Web site: >http://msog.brinet.net >mailto:msog@brinet.net > > > ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: AirEvacLen@aol.com Subject: Re: M_Boats: New stuff on MSOG Date: 21 Jan 2001 18:20:58 EST In a message dated 01/21/2001 12:32:59 PM US Mountain Standard Time, sparsons@canby.com writes: << Doug, Just in case we haven't said "Thank you" in a while, THANK YOU for your efforts. You and Keith are both greatly appreciated for keeping this band of scoundrels in communication. Steve >> Dittos Lenny ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: Bob Subject: Re: M_Boats: M23 Date: 21 Jan 2001 16:06:41 -0800 --------------060906040202000207030506 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Tom Some fiberglass (like a Dana 24 has) but mostly you will see a lot of wood. Interior will have teak trim, teak for the hanging locker, the overhead will have teak trim, the ceiling (side of the hull area) will be all wood striping. Some teak partial bulkheads etc. Teak louvered doors etc. Teak drop boards (hatch boards will be 13/16 solid teak) The wood bulkheads will be built up and laminated to the hull. (on top of the floor pan). A nice wood table. The interior will look a lot like the inside of a Bristol Channel Cutter (not the layout but the general appearance) take a look: http://www.samlmorse.com/BCC/photographs/int3/htm The interior will be warm and inviting without being dark with teakwood. And headroom for the people under 5' 11.5 inches. We are a week behind getting pictures out. I have some more I'll email out. Fair Winds Bob Thomas Wilkinson wrote: > Bob > > Is the M23 going to have an interior liner or is the interior going to > be built up on the hull? > > Tom > > M17 Obsessus > > > --------------060906040202000207030506 Content-Type: text/html; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Tom
Some fiberglass (like a Dana 24 has) but mostly you will see a lot of
wood. Interior will have teak trim, teak for the hanging locker, the overhead will
have teak trim, the ceiling (side of the hull area) will be all wood striping.
Some teak partial bulkheads etc. Teak louvered doors etc.
Teak drop boards (hatch boards will be 13/16 solid teak)
The wood bulkheads will be built up and laminated to the hull.
(on top of the floor pan). A nice wood table.
The interior will look a lot like the inside of a Bristol Channel Cutter
(not the layout but the general appearance)

take a look:  http://www.samlmorse.com/BCC/photographs/int3/htm

The interior will be warm and inviting without being dark with teakwood.

And headroom for the people under 5' 11.5  inches.

We are a week behind getting pictures out.

I have some more I'll email out.

Fair Winds

Bob



Thomas Wilkinson wrote:
Bob
Is the M23 going to have an interior liner or is the interior going to be built up on the hull?
Tom
M17 Obsessus
  

--------------060906040202000207030506-- ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: Bob Subject: M_Boats: OPPS...Heres the correct URL for the interior on BCC Date: 21 Jan 2001 16:15:14 -0800 --------------090109060201010805020402 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sorry Http://www.samlmorse.com/BCC/photographs/index.htm Bob Thomas Wilkinson wrote: > Bob > > Is the M23 going to have an interior liner or is the interior going to > be built up on the hull? > > Tom > > M17 Obsessus > > > --------------090109060201010805020402 Content-Type: text/html; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sorry
Http://www.samlmorse.com/BCC/photographs/index.htm

Bob

Thomas Wilkinson wrote:
Bob
Is the M23 going to have an interior liner or is the interior going to be built up on the hull?
Tom
M17 Obsessus
  

--------------090109060201010805020402-- ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: The Foxman Subject: M_Boats: norsea 37 Date: 21 Jan 2001 16:26:12 -0800 Bob, Email courtesy of Don Fox. Just came back from a short sail in his Montgomery 15. Great sailing boat! Was wondering if you had a 37 under construction that we might look at? Reply to ah2odog@home.com Thanks Frank Hagar ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: Conbert H Benneck Subject: Re: M_Boats: Winches Date: 21 Jan 2001 20:24:12 -0500 Theo, To warm your heart in your cold weather, take the winches apart. It's real simple. There is a snap ring around the shaft where you insert the winch handle. Use a thin screwdriver to pull out one end of the snap ring and then just "peel" it off the rest of the way. With the snap ring out of the way, just lift up the drum of the winch. What you find under the drum are the gears and the bearings. Remove; clean in kerosene; or gunk; or any other type of cleaner. Dry, re-lube and reassemble. That's it. I used Lubriplate as a grease, but WEST probaly has a Barlow grease, and a repair kit. Good luck and enjoy a new adventure. Connie ________________________________________________________________ GET INTERNET ACCESS FROM JUNO! Juno offers FREE or PREMIUM Internet access for less! Join Juno today! For your FREE software, visit: http://dl.www.juno.com/get/tagj. ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: "Joe Kidd" Subject: M_Boats: Chesapeake Rendezvous Date: 21 Jan 2001 18:43:20 -0800 Wow! All this talk about the Montgomery Chesapeake Rendezvous on the Choptank has me daydreaming. My handy-dandy trip planner CD indicates it is 2,925 miles (50 hours, 29 minutes driving time) from Mariposa, CA to Cambridge, MD. Lets see now... that's 2,925 x 2 = 5,850 miles round trip. Maybe gas is cheaper back east. I wonder if my old 88' Isuzu Trooper could make it. Just how many peanut butter and jelly sandwiches would I have to pack? Help! These mid-winter fantasies are becoming surreal. Joe Kidd M-15 #207 "Poco A Poco" ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: LBarkhuff@cs.com Subject: Re: M_Boats: Chesapeake Rendezvous Date: 21 Jan 2001 22:44:16 EST Hey Joe, I don't know about PB&J sandwiches, but I have a card that lets us eat for FREE in every 7-11 all the way there....when are we leaving....Larry ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: Doug King Subject: M_Boats: More, More, More, including online nautical charts. Date: 22 Jan 2001 06:43:20 -0500 Added some more stuff to MSOG yesterday. Finally got two sets of Tod and Bill's pictures up, sorry it took so long, guys. Tod - Take a look and see if you want captions under the C-Bay set. I'll add them if you reference them by Fig. number. AND! Finally found the interactive online charts at Maptech.com. Check out the MSOG Online Charts Section. Nautical charts, topo maps, aero charts, and nav photos available. Three different scales, two levels of zoom, all kinds of sexy goodies. We've got links to the Choptank and Little Choptank Rivers charts. Also, submit some others to me and I'll add 'em. If it's popular, I'll program so you can add your own. Y'all might want to start adding a link in your list posts to the appropriate chart and I'll try to pick 'em up. Thanks to Tod for the suggestion. Doug Kelch - Don't know if I hit the best sections of the Choptanks, if you want to give me better lat-lons I'll change the links. I can also put a description like "From here and east" or a lat-lon range of the cruising area after the map link. Finally, M15'ers, your section looks, well, pitiful. How about some goodies while I'm in the mood? Before sending in scans though, please read the "Tips to Contributors" at the bottom of the side menu. Should make the job a lot easier on everybody (mainly me.) Enjoy! Doug ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: Tom Smith Subject: RE: M_Boats: SCA M17 review Date: 22 Jan 2001 14:57:10 -0800 This message is in MIME format. Since your mail reader does not understand this format, some or all of this message may not be legible. ------_=_NextPart_001_01C084C6.A6EE9AE0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" I have a good idea Gary, why not subscribe to the publication? I'm all for posting articles of interest to the group, but the Small Craft Advisor is a publication that fills an important niche for us little boat sailors and we might want it to stick around for a while. I know you can buy all the back issues. Just a thought... Tom Tom Smith M15/345 -- Chukar Sandpoint, Idaho -----Original Message----- Sent: Saturday, January 20, 2001 10:10 AM Bones, for those of us who do not subcribe to SCA do you think it would be possible to have someone post the M17 review to the bulletin board. I'd like to see it if possible. TIA gary ------_=_NextPart_001_01C084C6.A6EE9AE0 Content-Type: text/html; charset="iso-8859-1"
I have a good idea Gary, why not subscribe to the publication?  I'm all for posting articles of interest to the group, but the Small Craft Advisor is a publication that fills an important niche for us little boat sailors and we might want it to stick around for a while.  I know you can buy all the back issues.   Just a thought...   Tom
 

Tom Smith
M15/345 -- Chukar
Sandpoint, Idaho

-----Original Message-----
From: TOMMYVAL@aol.com [mailto:TOMMYVAL@aol.com]
Sent: Saturday, January 20, 2001 10:10 AM
To: montgomery_boats@lists.xmission.com
Subject: Re: M_Boats: SCA M17 review

Bones,

for those of us who do not subcribe to SCA do you think it would be possible
to have someone post the M17 review to the bulletin board. I'd like to see it
if possible.
TIA

gary
------_=_NextPart_001_01C084C6.A6EE9AE0-- ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: TOMMYVAL@aol.com Subject: Re: M_Boats: Chesapeake Rendezvous Date: 22 Jan 2001 17:56:52 EST --part1_5d.63069d2.279e14b4_boundary Content-Type: text/plain; charset="US-ASCII" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Joe and Larry, Like the old commercial says "Just do it" We'd love to have some west coast representatives here. Another plus of the PB&J sandwiches and the 7-11 option, all the money you save during your trip could be put to some fine Chesapeake Bay steamed crabs and beer. I've said it before the Bay will not disappoint you. Look forward to the possibility of welcoming a west coast caravan to the Bay area. Hope to see you soon. Gary --part1_5d.63069d2.279e14b4_boundary Content-Type: text/html; charset="US-ASCII" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Joe and Larry,

Like the old commercial says "Just do it"  We'd love to have some west coast
representatives here. Another plus of the PB&J sandwiches and the 7-11
option,  
all the money you save during your trip could be put to some fine Chesapeake
Bay steamed crabs and beer. I've said it before the Bay will not disappoint
you.

Look forward to the possibility of welcoming a west coast caravan to the Bay
area.
Hope to see you soon.

Gary --part1_5d.63069d2.279e14b4_boundary-- ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: Tom Smith Subject: RE: M_Boats: Question for Bob Eeg Date: 22 Jan 2001 15:00:45 -0800 Bob, got my M15 windows Friday. Thanks a million. I'm liking what the M23 deck is looking like via pictures on the Montgomery Owners website. Did Lyle Hess not draw a deck plan for the 23? Tom Smith M15/345 -- Chukar Sandpoint, Idaho -----Original Message----- Sent: Monday, January 15, 2001 7:36 AM Tom Its 1/2 inch marine grade teak plywood. Even though its marine grade you should still varnish the edges and faces. (light oil on the teak face) Your FREE set of windows (because you and Jerry Montgomery kicked ass at the SCA Cruiser challange in your Montgomery 15) will be mailed priority mail today. The windows are blank and you will have to backdrill the mounting holes to match your boat. Are you going to the next race in April? Fair winds Bob Now off to work on the 23 with Jerry......the 'house' is framed in. Companionway hatch is next. :-) Tom Smith wrote: > BTW Bob, is that a marine grade ply or do you guys just varnish thoroughly > and call it good? Thanks. T. > > Tom Smith > M15--Chukar > Sandpoint, Idaho > > > > -----Original Message----- > From: Bob [mailto:Bobeeg@earthlink.net] > Sent: Saturday, January 13, 2001 6:02 AM > To: montgomery_boats@lists.xmission.com > Subject: Re: M_Boats: Question for Bob Eeg > > > Tom > I still have your windows in my car! :-) > > Just been busy and I will endevour to get them wrapped and mailed. > I did change computers a couple of weeks ago and will need your > mailing address again. (I could hand them to Jerry but would lose them, > Hehehe) > > We are using 1/2 inch teak faced plywood (3 pieces) for the 15. (looks > like mohogany > on the backside). > > Fair winds > > Bob > > > Tom Smith wrote: > >> Hi Bob. What are you using for hatch boards for the M15 these days? It >> looks like Jerry used a mahogany ply--1/2 inch or maybe 5/8. >> >> Oh, and what's the scoop on windows. At one time I was getting some from >> you. T >> >> Tom Smith >> M15--Chukar >> Sandpoint, Idaho >> >> >> >> >> >> ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: Conbert H Benneck Subject: Re: M_Boats: Chesapeake Rendezvous Date: 22 Jan 2001 19:30:50 -0500 Joe, How many peanut butter and jelly sandwiches you would need to make it from California to Maryland is a function of the consumption rate. As the consumee, you alone can determine that number: - but to be on the safe side why not have at least a 10% fuel reserve. Peanut butter and jelly sandwiches don't take up much space: even less if you do the assembly immediately before consuming them. We'll look forward to seeing you on the "right" coast! Connie ________________________________________________________________ GET INTERNET ACCESS FROM JUNO! Juno offers FREE or PREMIUM Internet access for less! Join Juno today! For your FREE software, visit: http://dl.www.juno.com/get/tagj. ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: Doug Kelch Subject: Re: M_Boats: More, More, More, including online nautical charts. Date: 22 Jan 2001 19:44:28 -0500 Great idea on the charts!!! I was just trying to figure out how to get the Choptank charts in a usable form for the web. Thanks Doug Kelch "Seas the Day" Doug King wrote: > Added some more stuff to MSOG yesterday. > > Finally got two sets of Tod and Bill's pictures up, sorry it took so long, > guys. > > Tod - Take a look and see if you want captions under the C-Bay set. I'll > add them if you reference them by Fig. number. > > AND! Finally found the interactive online charts at Maptech.com. Check out > the MSOG Online Charts Section. Nautical charts, topo maps, aero charts, > and nav photos available. Three different scales, two levels of zoom, all > kinds of sexy goodies. We've got links to the Choptank and Little Choptank > Rivers charts. Also, submit some others to me and I'll add 'em. > If it's popular, I'll program so you can add your own. Y'all might want to > start adding a link in your list posts to the appropriate chart and I'll > try to pick 'em up. Thanks to Tod for the suggestion. > > Doug Kelch - Don't know if I hit the best sections of the Choptanks, if you > want to give me better lat-lons I'll change the links. I can also put a > description like "From here and east" or a lat-lon range of the cruising > area after the map link. > > Finally, M15'ers, your section looks, well, pitiful. How about some goodies > while I'm in the mood? > > Before sending in scans though, please read the "Tips to Contributors" at > the bottom of the side menu. Should make the job a lot easier on everybody > (mainly me.) > > Enjoy! > > Doug ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: Jslubliner@aol.com Subject: Re: M_Boats: Chesapeake Rendezvous Date: 22 Jan 2001 22:34:12 EST --part1_33.faaa59a.279e55b4_boundary Content-Type: text/plain; charset="US-ASCII" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit OK, this is starting to get interesting. I am curious as to how many west coasters are really heading east. Waiting for more info. Jerry, any more thoughts about doing this out west as well this summer? John in Tucson Coyote - M17FD #69 --part1_33.faaa59a.279e55b4_boundary Content-Type: text/html; charset="US-ASCII" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit OK, this is starting to get interesting.

I am curious as to how many west coasters are really heading east. Waiting
for more info.

Jerry, any more thoughts about doing this out west as well this summer?

John in Tucson
Coyote - M17FD #69 --part1_33.faaa59a.279e55b4_boundary-- ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: Bob Subject: Re: M_Boats: Chesapeake Rendezvous Date: 22 Jan 2001 19:56:12 -0800 --------------030006060909010100010505 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit John We got Jerry locked up at the boatshop...hehehe. He can't come out until the non-skid is finished on the deck-plug. He probably won't be home until weekend after next. It would be fun to do something on the west coast later in the year. Later Bob Nor'Sea Jslubliner@aol.com wrote: > OK, this is starting to get interesting. > > I am curious as to how many west coasters are really heading east. > Waiting > for more info. > > Jerry, any more thoughts about doing this out west as well this summer? > > John in Tucson > Coyote - M17FD #69 --------------030006060909010100010505 Content-Type: text/html; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit John
We got Jerry locked up at the boatshop...hehehe.

He can't come out until the non-skid is finished on the deck-plug.

He probably won't be home until weekend after next.

It would be fun to do something on the west coast later in the year.

Later
Bob
Nor'Sea

Jslubliner@aol.com wrote:
OK, this is starting to get interesting.

I am curious as to how many west coasters are really heading east. Waiting
for more info.

Jerry, any more thoughts about doing this out west as well this summer?

John in Tucson
Coyote - M17FD #69

--------------030006060909010100010505-- ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: "Joe Kidd" Subject: Re: M_Boats: Chesapeake Rendezvous Date: 22 Jan 2001 23:29:53 -0800 This is a multi-part message in MIME format. ------=_NextPart_000_0012_01C084CB.3933D6A0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Larry, Tommy, Connie, John, et.al., Good grief, Charlie Brown! I was just dreaming! Has anyone = (besides Jerry M.) driven from one coast to the other (and back) pulling = a sailboat? That is an exercise for youngsters 20 years my junior. = Funny thing is, my admirable knows I would dearly love to sail the = Chesapeake Rendezvus and says maybe I should do it... if I think I'd = live through it. That which was born in jest has taken on a life of its own. Maybe I = should change Poco's name to "Ship of Fools". Before retiring, I = counseled people to determine the difference between "what if" and "what = is" to resolve their problems. What if... What is... How crazy am I? = Is a west coast convoy possible? I need counseling. Joe Kidd M-15 #207 "Poco A Poco" ------=_NextPart_000_0012_01C084CB.3933D6A0 Content-Type: text/html; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable
Larry, Tommy, Connie, John, et.al.,
 
    Good grief, Charlie Brown!  I was just=20 dreaming!  Has anyone (besides Jerry M.) driven from one = coast to=20 the other (and back) pulling a sailboat?  That is an exercise = for=20 youngsters 20 years my junior.  Funny thing is, my admirable knows = I would=20 dearly love to sail the Chesapeake Rendezvus and says maybe I = should=20 do it... if I think I'd live through it.
 
    That which was born in jest has taken = on a=20 life of its own.  Maybe I should change Poco's name = to "Ship of=20 Fools".  Before retiring, I counseled people to determine=20 the difference between "what if" and "what is" to resolve = their=20 problems.  What if...  What is...  How crazy am I?  = Is a=20 west coast convoy possible?  I need counseling.
 
    Joe Kidd  M-15 #207  "Poco A=20 Poco"
------=_NextPart_000_0012_01C084CB.3933D6A0-- ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: Sandyal55@aol.com Subject: Re: M_Boats: Chesapeake Rendezvous Date: 23 Jan 2001 13:11:03 EST --part1_2d.66e0848.279f2337_boundary Content-Type: text/plain; charset="US-ASCII" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit http://www.koa.com/ If you travel across country, this site can help you plan on KOA campgrounds to stop at. You might be able to stay in your boat and still have a hot shower daily. If your tow vehicle has a long wheelbase and adequate HP, it should be an easy trip. It is tiring by the third day. I just drove from Phx to Orlando in Dec(3 days) but not towing anything. Figure 4 days each way coast to coast. That's 700-800 miles per day. Have fun; Sandy --part1_2d.66e0848.279f2337_boundary Content-Type: text/html; charset="US-ASCII" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit http://www.koa.com/

If you travel across country, this site can help you plan on KOA campgrounds
to stop at. You might be able to stay in your boat and still have a hot
shower daily. If your tow vehicle has a long wheelbase and adequate HP, it
should be an easy trip. It is tiring by the third day. I just drove from Phx
to Orlando in Dec(3 days) but not towing anything. Figure 4 days each way
coast to coast. That's 700-800 miles per day.
Have fun;  Sandy --part1_2d.66e0848.279f2337_boundary-- ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: Conbert H Benneck Subject: Re: M_Boats: Chesapeake Rendezvous Date: 23 Jan 2001 21:15:09 -0500 Joe, The compass heading from California is 90 degrees till you get to Pittsburgh. Then you'll have to replot the course to the Chesapeake, and basically, your aiming point is Annapolis Since Interstates don't follow compass courses, you'll have to pick the right Interstate and trust that at the end of the highway, you will be where you want to be. When you reach Annapolis, then you are into micro-navigation, and Doug will probably be able to give you the details so that you can avoid the coral heads; crab pots; PWCs; and other forms of flotsom and jetsom that you may encounter in the Bay. For estimating ETA, I found that I can cruise 70 MPH to windward with the M15, if I am not climbing mountains. ETA can vary with agility of towing vehicle, and the leadfootedness of the driver - not to mention enroute weather conditions, and the quantity of peanutbutter and jelly sandwiches on board. Remember excess weight slows the tow vehicle! I will supply a bottle of champagne for each of the Left Coasters that join us. After all, it will be an occasion for a party! Connie ________________________________________________________________ GET INTERNET ACCESS FROM JUNO! Juno offers FREE or PREMIUM Internet access for less! Join Juno today! For your FREE software, visit: http://dl.www.juno.com/get/tagj. ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: LBarkhuff@cs.com Subject: Re: M_Boats: Chesapeake Rendezvous Date: 23 Jan 2001 21:55:57 EST A convoy is the only way to go......There is much comfort in group travel on an undertaking of this magnitude.....Larry ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: LBarkhuff@cs.com Subject: Re: M_Boats: Chesapeake Rendezvous Date: 23 Jan 2001 22:09:46 EST Connie, also aint no way I can go 70 with a 23 behind my charp- cheby.......Larry ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: "Joe Kidd" Subject: M_Boats: Chesapeake Rendezvous Date: 23 Jan 2001 21:08:40 -0800 Giles -- We've carried this discussion of the Chesapeake Rendezvous as far as it can go until a date is set. On which weekend in June will it be held? Larry -- Are you serious about towing your M-23 to the Choptank, or are you just dreaming out loud? Sandy -- As an RV'er, I'm familiar with KOAs, WalMarts, rest areas and truck stops all over the country. Connie -- 70 mph might not leave much of my old Isuzu Trooper tow vehicle running for the trip home. Joe Kidd M-15 #207 "Poco A Poco" ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: Doug King Subject: M_Boats: Joe: Route from Mariposa to Annapolis Date: 24 Jan 2001 03:26:48 -0500 --=====================_22346608==_.ALT Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Joe, Here's the route from Triangle Road near your house to Annapolis. Fairly straight shot, only 52 turns to downtown Annapolis. Total Distance: 2743.7 miles; Total Estimated Time: 52 hours, 18 minutes, at speed limits (ha ha). Route: http://www.mapquest.com/cgi-bin/mqtrip?shared_uid=e8oe17x1tdjedrdw&link=btwn /twn-ddir_results_page&event=retrieve_route Doug Doug King M-17 #404 "Vixen" MSOG Web site: http://msog.brinet.net mailto:msog@brinet.net --=====================_22346608==_.ALT Content-Type: text/html; charset="us-ascii" Joe,

Here's the route from Triangle Road near your house to Annapolis. Fairly straight shot, only 52 turns to downtown Annapolis.

Total Distance: 2743.7 miles; Total Estimated Time: 52 hours, 18 minutes, at speed limits (ha ha).

Route: http://www.mapquest.com/cgi-bin/mqtrip?shared_uid=e8oe17x1tdjedrdw&link=btwn/twn-ddir_results_page&event=retrieve_route

Doug
Doug King
M-17 #404 "Vixen"

MSOG Web site:
mailto:msog@brinet.net --=====================_22346608==_.ALT-- ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: "Morris, Giles" Subject: RE: M_Boats: Chesapeake Rendezvous Date: 24 Jan 2001 09:29:12 -0600 >Giles -- We've carried this discussion of the Chesapeake Rendezvous as far >as it can go until a date is set. On which weekend in June will it be held? The only weekend that I cannot attend is 29/30. So, in the interest of nailing it down I'll put 15/16 on the table -- how does that sound? Just a moment, something occurred to me... I have two boats, which seems a little unfair. If there is somebody who would like to attend from afar but won't because it's too much of a PITA to move a boat, I have a nice little M-15 that you can use. Giles Morris Arlington VA Vancouver 25 #002 "Dolphin" Montgomery 15 #264 "Umiaq" Sundry kayaks ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: Michael L Bowden Subject: Re: M_Boats: SCA M17 review Date: 24 Jan 2001 16:00:46 -0600 Hi Gary, We would need to get permission from Josh at SCA for that article to be reprinted and posted. I recommend checking out a trial issue of SCA. Later, Bones ________________________________________________________________ GET INTERNET ACCESS FROM JUNO! Juno offers FREE or PREMIUM Internet access for less! Join Juno today! For your FREE software, visit: http://dl.www.juno.com/get/tagj. ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: Michael L Bowden Subject: M_Boats: M23 Date: 24 Jan 2001 16:16:20 -0600 Hey Larry, Of course I'm interested in the new M23! What Lyle Hess fan would not be drooling. I just hope it doesn't cost as much as the new reintroduced Flicka. I wonder how sail areas will compare between the two. I would imagine with a slightly longer water line, less wetted surface, and one ton lighter, the NS23 will be quite nimble compared to the F20. Hoping to see pictures soon, listening Bob? On another note, I purchased a new Yamaha 4hp 4stroke LS for the M17. 49lbs compared to my finicky old Johnson 6hp at 58lbs. I see where Yamaha set a record with this motor and achieved 68 miles to a gallon of gas. (they did not say what they had it mounted to!) Later listers. Michael "Bones" Bowden M17 #92 Mpls ________________________________________________________________ GET INTERNET ACCESS FROM JUNO! Juno offers FREE or PREMIUM Internet access for less! Join Juno today! For your FREE software, visit: http://dl.www.juno.com/get/tagj. ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: LBarkhuff@cs.com Subject: Re: M_Boats: Chesapeake Rendezvous Date: 23 Jan 2001 22:09:02 EST Connie, connie......those directions from Calif......so bad........ In reality, go East until you see water.........turn Right for Florida, (my usual) Turn Left for Cheseapeake.....No problema.....amigo....Larry ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: "Gary M. Hyde" Subject: Re: M_Boats: SCA M17 review Date: 24 Jan 2001 15:33:45 -0800 How do we get in touch with the SCA people to subscribe? --Gary M15 #235 "Vanilla" N24 #133 "Sailebration" Pullman, WA gmhyde@wsu.edu > From: Michael L Bowden > Reply-To: montgomery_boats@lists.xmission.com > Date: Wed, 24 Jan 2001 16:00:46 -0600 > To: montgomery_boats@lists.xmission.com > Subject: Re: M_Boats: SCA M17 review > > Hi Gary, > > We would need to get permission from Josh at SCA for that article to be > reprinted and posted. > I recommend checking out a trial issue of SCA. > > Later, > > Bones > ________________________________________________________________ > GET INTERNET ACCESS FROM JUNO! > Juno offers FREE or PREMIUM Internet access for less! > Join Juno today! For your FREE software, visit: > http://dl.www.juno.com/get/tagj. > ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: leyake@juno.com Subject: Re: M_Boats: SCA M17 review Date: 24 Jan 2001 15:42:46 -0800 Small Craft Advisor Box 676 Morro Bay, Ca. 93442 805-771-9393 $19.95 per year ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: Tom Smith Subject: RE: M_Boats: SCA M17 review Date: 24 Jan 2001 15:57:44 -0800 http://www.smallcraftadvisor.com/ Tom Smith LineSoft Corporation Phone: 509-928-1707 ext. 248 Fax: 509-928-2581 E-mail: tsmith@linesoft.com Website: www.linesoft.com -----Original Message----- Sent: Wednesday, January 24, 2001 3:43 PM Small Craft Advisor Box 676 Morro Bay, Ca. 93442 805-771-9393 $19.95 per year ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: "Gary M. Hyde" Subject: Re: M_Boats: SCA M17 review Date: 24 Jan 2001 16:05:47 -0800 Thanks, Tom. --Gary M15 #235 "Vanilla" N24 #133 "Sailebration" Pullman, WA gmhyde@wsu.edu > From: Tom Smith > Reply-To: montgomery_boats@lists.xmission.com > Date: Wed, 24 Jan 2001 15:57:44 -0800 > To: > "'montgomery_boats@lists.xmission.com'" > Subject: RE: M_Boats: SCA M17 review > > http://www.smallcraftadvisor.com/ > > Tom Smith > LineSoft Corporation > Phone: 509-928-1707 ext. 248 > Fax: 509-928-2581 > E-mail: tsmith@linesoft.com > Website: www.linesoft.com > > > -----Original Message----- > From: leyake@juno.com [mailto:leyake@juno.com] > Sent: Wednesday, January 24, 2001 3:43 PM > To: montgomery_boats@lists.xmission.com > Subject: Re: M_Boats: SCA M17 review > > > Small Craft Advisor > Box 676 > Morro Bay, Ca. 93442 > 805-771-9393 > $19.95 per year > ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: rc2222@postoffice.pacbell.net Subject: M_Boats: Marina Charge Date: 24 Jan 2001 15:39:40 -0800 Captain Kidd: Do you know what the Marina charges for a M15 or M17 are at Don Pedro are for the week, month, or season? Thanks, Rich Cottrell - ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: Doug Kelch Subject: M_Boats: Dates: Chesapeak Rondevouz Date: 24 Jan 2001 20:11:07 -0500 Well the votes have been counted, the pregnant chads studied, three recounts held with differing interpretations of hanging through pregnant chads and the results are: The week starting 6/9/2001 will be the Rondevouz dates. With this date we only loose 1 person (sorry Dennis) for the whole week and Al for part of the week.. Details will follow to the interested parties. Let's see Hmmmmmm: I offered my M15 to Jerry and he will let me know in March if he declines I could make it available to someone else, Giles's M15 has been offered for a loan, maybe we could get Alfie's (M15) owner to volunteer and we could open three slots for frequent flyers!! Thanks Doug ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: "Joe Kidd" Subject: M_Boats: Dates: Chesapeake Rondezvous Date: 24 Jan 2001 19:29:05 -0800 Doug & Giles, The date of June 16 for starting the Chesapeake Rendezvous would not have worked for me, but I abstained from voting until all of the results were in. I didn't want to add any undue left-coast influence as I am still weighing my options. My participation during the week beginning June 9, 2001 is a possibility. Although I would love to sail Poco on the Chesapeake, your generous offer to use one of your spare M15's is encouraging. Flying would be cheaper, less time-consuming and definitely less stressful than towing my M15 round trip cross-country. My admirable also likes that option better. (You know how spouses worry.) Keep me posted on further developments and I'll keep the dreaming and scheming sailing out here on the left coast. Joe Kidd M15 #207 "Poco A Poco" ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: John Fleming Subject: Re: M_Boats: Joe: Route from Mariposa to Annapolis Date: 24 Jan 2001 22:20:05 -0700 Doug King wrote: > > Joe, > > Here's the route from Triangle Road near your house to Annapolis. > Fairly straight shot, only 52 turns to downtown Annapolis. > > Total Distance: 2743.7 miles; Total Estimated Time: 52 hours, 18 > minutes, at speed limits (ha ha). Man, I can't believe this. Driving across the country to sail a boat? I'd be a gibbering, wild-eyed nervous imbecile (don't say it ...) after spending 4 hard days pulling my M-17 across the country. I was a nervouw wreck pulling it from Phoenix to Los Angeles and back. Hats off to anybody who can do it. You're a better trailer-sailor than me. Maybe a M-15 is easier than a M-17. They say that's one of the advantages of trailer sailing. You can sail in one place, and when you're tired of that, just pick up and go somewhere else. Oh man, those road trips are tough though. There's just no peace of mind. And they say the Nor'Sea 27 is road-draggable by ordinary mortals. Hah! Ordinary mortals that don't care they are dragging their life savings over every pothole and ditch. Just having fun ... I guess I'm going to have to arrange a West coast rendezvous. Maybe I'll show up at that Potter race Judy Blumhorst puts on every year. Regards, John Fleming M-17: "Star Cross'd" ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: Doug Kelch Subject: Re: M_Boats: Dates: Chesapeake Rondezvous Date: 25 Jan 2001 08:15:26 -0500 FANTASTIC!!! Glad to hear you can make it. We can put temporay mylar name on the transom. How about "Poco A Poco Proxy" :) Looking forward to seeing you. Doug Kelch "Seas the Day" Joe Kidd wrote: > Doug & Giles, > > The date of June 16 for starting the Chesapeake Rendezvous would not > have worked for me, but I abstained from voting until all of the results > were in. I didn't want to add any undue left-coast influence as I am still > weighing my options. My participation during the week beginning June 9, > 2001 is a possibility. > > Although I would love to sail Poco on the Chesapeake, your generous > offer to use one of your spare M15's is encouraging. Flying would be > cheaper, less time-consuming and definitely less stressful than towing my > M15 round trip cross-country. My admirable also likes that option better. > (You know how spouses worry.) > > Keep me posted on further developments and I'll keep the dreaming and > scheming sailing out here on the left coast. > > Joe Kidd M15 #207 "Poco A Poco" ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: "Roberta & Mark Dvorscak" Subject: M_Boats: Re:Best Coast Rendezvous Date: 25 Jan 2001 17:28:55 -0800 While we're on the subject of West Coast rendezvous, are the Oregon M-boaters interested in another fling at Fern Ridge? Or should we convoy up to Puget Sound and splash our boats there? Or maybe one of the bays on the coast for a little variety. Anybody interested? Mark Dvorscak M17 #400 GRACE ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: leyake@juno.com Subject: Re: M_Boats: Re:Best Coast Rendezvous Date: 25 Jan 2001 18:10:53 -0800 I'ld be interested in a West Coast Rendezvous, especially if it isn't too far south. (I'm in Eastern Washington) Since I'm still restoring and setting up my M17, the chance to study others and pick the brains of fellow sailors would be too good to pass up. Larry Yake M17 #200 Rapture ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: Bob Olson Subject: Re: M_Boats: Re:Best Coast Rendezvous Date: 25 Jan 2001 19:38:10 -0700 I'm interested. Be nice to have some company for a change. How's 'bout south sound. Or maybe we could crash a Potter gathering whilst playing music from Apocalypse Now. Bob Olson M-15 #296 "Piccolo" Kent, WA >While we're on the subject of West Coast rendezvous, are the Oregon >M-boaters interested in another fling at Fern Ridge? Or should we convoy up >to Puget Sound and splash our boats there? Or maybe one of the bays on the >coast for a little variety. Anybody interested? > >Mark Dvorscak >M17 #400 >GRACE > > > ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: sparsons@canby.com (Steve Parsons) Subject: Re: M_Boats: Re:Best Coast Rendezvous Date: 25 Jan 2001 19:55:47 -0800 Mark, I'll throw Waldo out as a suggestion.... Steve >While we're on the subject of West Coast rendezvous, are the Oregon >M-boaters interested in another fling at Fern Ridge? Or should we convoy up >to Puget Sound and splash our boats there? Or maybe one of the bays on the >coast for a little variety. Anybody interested? > >Mark Dvorscak >M17 #400 >GRACE > > > > ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: Doug King Subject: M_Boats: Group Hug, Everyone Date: 25 Jan 2001 23:31:17 -0500 Here's a thought, The West Coasters could have their Rendezvous the same time the East Coasters do. Then, at a pre-appointed time (accounting for time difference of course), We'll call each other up on cellphones, face each other, wave and yell Hi-i-i-i! Take pictures while waving and put 'em on the web site. Then we could all sing "This land is your land", "Kumbaya" and finish with "We are family". Or not. Like I said, just a thought. Next part of the new M-23 lay-up process is on the site with pics. Doug King M-17 #404 "Vixen" MSOG Web site: http://msog.brinet.net Email: mailto:msog@brinet.net ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: Fran Lebowitz Subject: Re: M_Boats: Group Hug, Everyone Date: 25 Jan 2001 21:16:13 -0700 Doug King wrote: > The West Coasters could have their Rendezvous the same time the East > Coasters do. We'll call each other up on cellphones, face each other, wave > and yell Hi-i-i-i! Take pictures while waving and put 'em on the web site; sing "This land is your land", "Kumbaya" and finish with > "We are family". Wonderful idea, Doug, but then again, I'm from the '60's. And we thought only GDubbya could bring us together. DOUG for Pres in '2004!!! Fran M15 #236 ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: Peter Jacobs Subject: Re: M_Boats: Re:Best Coast Rendezvous Date: 25 Jan 2001 21:48:16 -0800 Roberta & Mark Dvorscak wrote: > > While we're on the subject of West Coast rendezvous, are the Oregon > M-boaters interested in another fling at Fern Ridge? Or should we convoy up > to Puget Sound and splash our boats there? Or maybe one of the bays on the > coast for a little variety. Anybody interested? > > Mark Dvorscak > M17 #400 > GRACE My vote is for Puget Sound :) -Peter- -- ======================== Peter Jacobs, M17 "Enfin" Victoria BC Canada http://www.islandnet.com/~pjacobs/homepage.htm ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: mikit Subject: Re: M_Boats: Re:Best Coast Rendezvous Date: 25 Jan 2001 22:13:17 -0800 I think we should invade Peter's back yard and convince him to host a week long tour of the Canadian Gulf Islands. That would be special. Mike M-17#369 >Roberta & Mark Dvorscak wrote: >> >> While we're on the subject of West Coast rendezvous, are the Oregon >> M-boaters interested in another fling at Fern Ridge? Or should we convoy up >> to Puget Sound and splash our boats there? Or maybe one of the bays on the >> coast for a little variety. Anybody interested? >> >> Mark Dvorscak >> M17 #400 >> GRACE > > >My vote is for Puget Sound :) > >-Peter- >-- >======================== >Peter Jacobs, M17 "Enfin" >Victoria BC Canada >http://www.islandnet.com/~pjacobs/homepage.htm ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: "Randy Graves" Subject: Re: M_Boats: Re:Best Coast Rendezvous Date: 26 Jan 2001 07:49:29 -0800 I would also be interested in a West Coast / Pacific North West Montogmery get-together this summer! Randy G. M-15 #407 North Idaho ----- Original Message ----- Sent: Thursday, January 25, 2001 5:28 PM > While we're on the subject of West Coast rendezvous, are the Oregon > M-boaters interested in another fling at Fern Ridge? Or should we convoy up > to Puget Sound and splash our boats there? Or maybe one of the bays on the > coast for a little variety. Anybody interested? > > Mark Dvorscak > M17 #400 > GRACE > ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: Peter Jacobs Subject: Re: M_Boats: Re:Best Coast Rendezvous Date: 26 Jan 2001 08:20:45 -0800 mikit wrote: > > I think we should invade Peter's back yard and convince him to host a > week long tour of the Canadian Gulf Islands. That would be special. > Mike > M-17#369 > It would be a "self guided tour" of course. Sounds like a heck of a good idea to me. There's no shortage of cruising areas here. We've only managed to go on a 3-day cruise so far, but now I'm getting to be a bit better sailor, and can look the Admirable in the eye and say "This is perfectly normal, dear" as the boat heels over 25 degrees, I think a longer cruise would be great ... especially with a fleet of M boats. -Peter- -- ======================== Peter Jacobs, M17 "Enfin" Victoria BC Canada http://www.islandnet.com/~pjacobs/homepage.htm ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: Tom Smith Subject: RE: M_Boats: Re:Best Coast Rendezvous Date: 26 Jan 2001 08:24:41 -0800 Randy, I'm thinking about the Small Craft Advisor Cruiser Challenge in Oakland again this summer. Don't know the date, but it was in July last year. Would you be interested in going down to that? Tom Smith and Jane Van Winkle M15/345 -- Chukar Sandpoint, Idaho -----Original Message----- Sent: Friday, January 26, 2001 7:49 AM I would also be interested in a West Coast / Pacific North West Montogmery get-together this summer! Randy G. M-15 #407 North Idaho ----- Original Message ----- Sent: Thursday, January 25, 2001 5:28 PM > While we're on the subject of West Coast rendezvous, are the Oregon > M-boaters interested in another fling at Fern Ridge? Or should we convoy up > to Puget Sound and splash our boats there? Or maybe one of the bays on the > coast for a little variety. Anybody interested? > > Mark Dvorscak > M17 #400 > GRACE > ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: Shawn Boles Subject: RE: M_Boats: Re:Best Coast Rendezvous Date: 26 Jan 2001 12:07:05 -0800 Mark - Any of these sounds good. Fern Ridge is easy, but would be willing to try an alternative. Did you ever check out Winchester Bay? As I recall you and Roberta were going to sail there last fall. cheers- Shawn Boles Grey Mist (M17 #276 1978) -----Original Message----- Sent: Thursday, January 25, 2001 5:29 PM While we're on the subject of West Coast rendezvous, are the Oregon M-boaters interested in another fling at Fern Ridge? Or should we convoy up to Puget Sound and splash our boats there? Or maybe one of the bays on the coast for a little variety. Anybody interested? Mark Dvorscak M17 #400 GRACE ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: "Joe Kidd" Subject: M_Boats: Left Coast Rendezvous Date: 26 Jan 2001 13:43:54 -0800 Mike, Randy, Peter, Fran... I like the theme of your discussion. A Montgomery northwest (left) coast rendezvous is a great idea. It would be a lot cheaper and easier than going all the way to Maryland. (Although the lure of sailing the Choptank is still inviting. I was getting ready to read Michner's "Chesapeake" again.) Is there a lake in Oregon that would provide enough cruising adventure for a week? Are there marinas and/or gunkholes in south Puget Sound where we could raft up? The opportunity to sail the Gulf Islands again is really tempting. I liked the Gulf Islands much more than the San Juans -- and Desolation Sound even better. As for the Oakland Estuary, it is one super busy, busy area and definitely not one of my favorite sailing destinations. Why don't you pick a date and place, run it up the flagpole and see if anyone salutes. Joe Kidd M15 #207 "Poco A Poco" ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: "Joe Kidd" Subject: Re: M_Boats: Marina Charge Date: 26 Jan 2001 14:52:50 -0800 Rich, Day before yesterday we had a lot of snow and no electricity. Today we have a lot more snow and plenty of electricity... California living at its best! I finally checked the rental fees for a slip at Lake Don Pedro. A slip is either $100 (double berth) or $110 (single berth) per month, plus $60 for the annual Lake Don Pedro boat permit and $60 for the annual park entrance pass. Not cheap, but it beats rigging a boat in a 100+ degree parking lot. We're still considering our options. Joe Kidd M15 #207 "Poco A Poco" > Captain Kidd: > > Do you know what the Marina charges for a M15 or M17 > are at Don Pedro are for the week, month, or season? > > Thanks, > > Rich Cottrell > - > > > ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: rc2222@postoffice.pacbell.net Subject: Re: M_Boats: Marina Charge Date: 26 Jan 2001 15:26:30 -0800 Joe: Thank you for checking. I didn't mean for you to go out of your way to check out the fees. I had a great time at Don Pedro. It's a great sailing lake and just the right distance from home to spend a couple days. The reason I asked is I'm considering purchasing a new or new to me M17 in a year , or so. The 17 isn too large with trailer for my yard and I don't think I'd like to tow it often. I'd probably keep the M15 at home and eventually take it back to Rochester, New Hampshire, where my in-laws live. I'll be turning 60 in a couple weeks. I plan to spend more time off from the real estate business. I seem to be enjoying lake sailing more than the bay sailing. I like to get away from the bay area when I sail. It gives me time to really relax. I'm running in the San Francisco 1/2 Marathon this Sunday. It will be my 1st long race. I'll get through it by thinking of sailing across the oceans on a Montgomery. Thank you again for your kind assistance. Rich Cottrell Joe Kidd wrote: > Rich, > > Day before yesterday we had a lot of snow and no electricity. Today we > have a lot more snow and plenty of electricity... California living at its > best! > > I finally checked the rental fees for a slip at Lake Don Pedro. A slip > is either $100 (double berth) or $110 (single berth) per month, plus $60 for > the annual Lake Don Pedro boat permit and $60 for the annual park entrance > pass. Not cheap, but it beats rigging a boat in a 100+ degree parking lot. > We're still considering our options. > > Joe Kidd M15 #207 "Poco A Poco" > > > Captain Kidd: > > > > Do you know what the Marina charges for a M15 or M17 > > are at Don Pedro are for the week, month, or season? > > > > Thanks, > > > > Rich Cottrell > > - > > > > > > ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: "Randy Graves" Subject: Re: M_Boats: Re:Best Coast Rendezvous Date: 26 Jan 2001 16:25:56 -0800 Hi Tom, The Small Craft Advisor Cruiser Challenge sounds like a race? I would be all for cruising in company of other small boat sailors, but am a looooog-ways from being competition in a race! I would really enjoy a weeks sail in the Pudget Sound with other M owners. Randy ----- Original Message ----- Sent: Friday, January 26, 2001 8:24 AM > Randy, I'm thinking about the Small Craft Advisor Cruiser Challenge in > Oakland again this summer. Don't know the date, but it was in July last > year. Would you be interested in going down to that? > > Tom Smith and Jane Van Winkle > M15/345 -- Chukar > Sandpoint, Idaho > > > > -----Original Message----- > From: Randy Graves [mailto:RandyG@cite.nic.edu] > Sent: Friday, January 26, 2001 7:49 AM > To: montgomery_boats@lists.xmission.com > Subject: Re: M_Boats: Re:Best Coast Rendezvous > > > I would also be interested in a West Coast / Pacific North West Montogmery > get-together this summer! > > Randy G. > M-15 #407 > North Idaho > > > ----- Original Message ----- > From: "Roberta & Mark Dvorscak" > To: > Sent: Thursday, January 25, 2001 5:28 PM > Subject: M_Boats: Re:Best Coast Rendezvous > > > > While we're on the subject of West Coast rendezvous, are the Oregon > > M-boaters interested in another fling at Fern Ridge? Or should we convoy > up > > to Puget Sound and splash our boats there? Or maybe one of the bays on the > > coast for a little variety. Anybody interested? > > > > Mark Dvorscak > > M17 #400 > > GRACE > > > ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: pete master Subject: M_Boats: Montgomeries for sale Date: 26 Jan 2001 19:19:20 -0700 Hooper Yachts in the Twin Cities area (MN) finally updated their web site, and their used boat listings. There's a Monty 15 listed at their location in Afton, and a 17 in Sturgeon Bay, WI. The 17 was on their list last summer. I know nothing about either one of them, just happened upon them. Pete Master Denver ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: Saltm17@aol.com Subject: Re: M_Boats: Chesapeake Rendezvous Date: 26 Jan 2001 21:21:01 EST Joe, Not quite coast-to-coast, but I towed my M17 from Montana to SC. Didn't have any problems, even when driving through snow in SD. I have the same truck ('84 F150 with the 300 straight 6), but a rebuilt moter. I stayed on the interstate (wherever possible), and kept it at 60 or under. I had a bunch of books on tape (no PBJs) and the trip seemed long but not really bad. John "Miss T" M17 # 372 ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: sparsons@canby.com (Steve Parsons) Subject: Re: M_Boats: Left Coast Rendezvous Date: 26 Jan 2001 19:49:49 -0800 Gang, I like Peter's idea of a tour of the Gulf Islands. Mayne Island has Campbell Bay that is out of the ferry wash, plus the other side has Plumper (sp?) Sound, the Penders, Saturna and a few others.... Bring a sea kayak as a tender. If you want lake sailing, I would consider one of the large N. Idaho lakes, or Waldo in Oregon. Waldo is good for about three days, then you've hit the highlights. Has anyone done the South Sound around Olympia??? Steve >Mike, Randy, Peter, Fran... > > I like the theme of your discussion. A Montgomery northwest (left) >coast rendezvous is a great idea. It would be a lot cheaper and easier than >going all the way to Maryland. (Although the lure of sailing the Choptank >is still inviting. I was getting ready to read Michner's "Chesapeake" >again.) > > Is there a lake in Oregon that would provide enough cruising adventure >for a week? Are there marinas and/or gunkholes in south Puget Sound where >we could raft up? The opportunity to sail the Gulf Islands again is really >tempting. I liked the Gulf Islands much more than the San Juans -- and >Desolation Sound even better. As for the Oakland Estuary, it is one super >busy, busy area and definitely not one of my favorite sailing destinations. > > Why don't you pick a date and place, run it up the flagpole and see if >anyone salutes. > > Joe Kidd M15 #207 "Poco A Poco" > > > > ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: Peter Jacobs Subject: Re: M_Boats: Left Coast Rendezvous Date: 26 Jan 2001 19:46:01 -0800 Joe Kidd wrote: > > Mike, Randy, Peter, Fran... > > I like the theme of your discussion. A Montgomery northwest (left) > coast rendezvous is a great idea............ Well, I'd recommend starting from the mainland, as it was a $125 Cdn ferry ride for my Dakota and M17 when I bought it up from Portland OR. Port Angles WA or Port Towsend WA are both excellent jumping-off points. You can go either way from there: south down into Puget Sound, or north up to the San Juan and/or Gulf Islands ... take your pick. Rod Johnson (x M17 owner) is in Port Angeles and could advise as to launch ramps and vehicle parking. From PA it's an easy day's run to Victoria (to clear Customs) and then the whole southern Gulf Islands are available. Again, my local crusing experience is limited to a three day jaunt last year, but what I lack in knowledge I make up with enthusiasm :) What kind of time frame are you people thinking of? Let's get some dates out and see if this works. -Peter- ======================== Peter Jacobs M17 "Enfin" Victoria BC Canada http://www.islandnet.com/~pjacobs/homepage.htm ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: "Roberta & Mark Dvorscak" Subject: Re: M_Boats: Left Coast Rendezvous Date: 26 Jan 2001 20:44:23 -0800 Northwest M-boaters, Hey, all these ideas sound great! I hear lots of enthusiasm. I have no personal knowledge of Puget Sound or Gulf Islands sailing (although GRACE would be right at home since her former owner sailed her in the Gulf Islands for 10 years. Maybe she would pilot herself to all the best places. I'm up for an adventure, though. I'll gather up my maps and cruising guides and scope things out but someone with first hand knowledge would be most welcome to take the lead here. How does early July sound? We would need to put our heads together to work out an itinerary. By the way, Shawn, I never made the trip to Winchester Bay last fall. Life kept getting in the way and it didn't work out. Maybe this spring... The Oregon group should also try to make a long weekend to Waldo Lake in September. (I'm not trying to exclude anyone here, I was just thinking of the distance and the long hard pull up into the Cascades). Keep the ball rolling, spring isn't that far off. Mark Dvorscak M17 #400 GRACE ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: "Joe Kidd" Subject: M_Boats: Left Coast Rendezvous Date: 26 Jan 2001 21:52:00 -0800 The Strait of Georgia is usually easier to cross than the Strait of Juan De Fuca. IMHO, inexperienced sailors in small craft should attempt crossing from Port Angeles to Victoria only in the best weather and sailing conditions. And remember; it is a round trip. You have to go back across the strait to your launch site to retrieve your tow vehicle and trailer. Personally, I wouldn't want to press my luck twice in one week. Leaving from the Vancouver, BC area would be less challenging, offer islands to hide behind in case of a sudden blow and also eliminate the necessity of sailing through customs. Joe Kidd M15 #207 "Poco A Poco" ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: Bob Olson Subject: Re: M_Boats: Left Coast Rendezvous Date: 26 Jan 2001 22:20:07 -0800 The Straits can get a bit hairy. Is there somewhere that might have bunny tow as well as a diamond run? Bob Olson >Well, I'd recommend starting from the mainland, as it was a $125 Cdn >ferry ride for my Dakota and M17 when I bought it up from Portland OR. >Port Angles WA or Port Towsend WA are both excellent jumping-off points. >You can go either way from there: south down into Puget Sound, or north >up to the San Juan and/or Gulf Islands ... take your pick. > >Rod Johnson (x M17 owner) is in Port Angeles and could advise as to >launch ramps and vehicle parking. From PA it's an easy day's run to >Victoria (to clear Customs) and then the whole southern Gulf Islands are >available. > >Again, my local crusing experience is limited to a three day jaunt last >year, but what I lack in knowledge I make up with enthusiasm :) > >What kind of time frame are you people thinking of? Let's get some dates >out and see if this works. > >-Peter- >======================== >Peter Jacobs M17 "Enfin" >Victoria BC Canada >http://www.islandnet.com/~pjacobs/homepage.htm ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: Doug King Subject: M_Boats: Doug Kelch's map available at 83 kb Date: 27 Jan 2001 01:44:45 -0500 I converted Doug Kelch's map to GIF, so it's much smaller now (in file size only). It's available on the MSOG site under a new category, Montgomery Rendezvous...es. I've disabled the old "Rendezvous, yadas, yadas and Regattas" database since it seemed to be overkill. I'll send the smaller version to Doug K. also. Doug K. ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: sparsons@canby.com (Steve Parsons) Subject: M_Boats: Left/Best Coast Date: 26 Jan 2001 22:53:30 -0800 Folks, Early July (week of the 9th) is out for me, as I am taking the Arima back to Neah Bay to chase those slippery, silver little salmon. BTW, if you're thinking Gulf Islands, I would consider a Anacortes (wife of that famous spanish explorer:-) ) launch, as the Straits of Juan de Fuca can get very rough. Another option would be a Bellingham launch. We were running the fishing boat from Neah Bay to Vancouver Island last year (July 4) and were in large seas. Watch those tides!!! The September trip to Waldo sounds GREAT! The mosquitoes are usually dead, and things are pretty calm, people wise. Even on Labor Day, it's still not that bad. Thank God for a 10MPH limit!!! This is another place to have a canoe or Kayak for a tender. There is a couple of great coves, and a nice beach at Rhododendron Island. Water is clear and chilly, but that just builds character. Steve >Northwest M-boaters, > Hey, all these ideas sound great! I hear lots of enthusiasm. I have no >personal knowledge of Puget Sound or Gulf Islands sailing (although GRACE >would be right at home since her former owner sailed her in the Gulf Islands >for 10 years. Maybe she would pilot herself to all the best places. I'm up >for an adventure, though. I'll gather up my maps and cruising guides and >scope things out but someone with first hand knowledge would be most welcome >to take the lead here. How does early July sound? We would need to put our >heads together to work out an itinerary. > > By the way, Shawn, I never made the trip to Winchester Bay last fall. >Life kept getting in the way and it didn't work out. Maybe this spring... > > The Oregon group should also try to make a long weekend to Waldo Lake in >September. (I'm not trying to exclude anyone here, I was just thinking of >the distance and the long hard pull up into the Cascades). > > Keep the ball rolling, spring isn't that far off. > >Mark Dvorscak >M17 #400 >GRACE > > > > ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: Richard Lane Subject: Re: M_Boats: Re:Best Coast Rendezvous Date: 26 Jan 2001 22:57:59 -0800 If you guys do get a PNW get-together "together" this summer give me a call at (360)385-6686 in Port Townsend (a not to be missed spot). Although I don't have a Monty anymore I would be happy to help with transport and sight seeing etc. Regards, Dick ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: Richard Lane Subject: Re: M_Boats: Left/Best Coast Date: 26 Jan 2001 23:22:20 -0800 Annacortes or Bellingham are good launching spots as is Port Townsend, the Straits of Juan de Fuca can be avoided by going up the Saratoga Passage and out through Deception Pass. My wife always insists we go that way even in the Nonsuch though (or perhaps because) she has crossed the Straits in the M 23. When my son goes sailing with me we always take the shorter route across the Straits and through Cattle Pass to Lopez or San Juan Islands. Regards, Dick Steve Parsons wrote: > Folks, > > Early July (week of the 9th) is out for me, as I am taking the Arima back to > Neah Bay to chase those slippery, silver little salmon. BTW, if you're > thinking Gulf Islands, I would consider a Anacortes (wife of that famous > spanish explorer:-) ) launch, as the Straits of Juan de Fuca can get very > rough. Another option would be a Bellingham launch. We were running the > fishing boat from Neah Bay to Vancouver Island last year (July 4) and were > in large seas. Watch those tides!!! > > > > > > ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: Gerald Donaldson Subject: M_Boats: Montgomery 15 or 17 For Single-Handed Launching/Retrieval? Date: 27 Jan 2001 04:11:36 -0500 Well, here I was ready to spring for a new M-15 with Bob Eeg at Nor'sea (who has been generous and gentlemanly trying to accommodate my anxieties and my imponderables about trailering) when my wife at dinner tonight asks, "What did you decide about getting another, smaller overnighter." I replied that I still was unsure about either of our V-6 mid-sized sedans being able to haul 2,500 lbs.of boat, gear, and trailer, so I was leaning towards having Bob do a M-15 rather than a M-17. I asked Bob if he could do certain custom work on the 15' and he readily agreed. Also, I pointed out that the 15' on the hoof with gear would be in the vicinity of 1,200 lbs. and that I had little doubt about the ability of either car to pull that. Furthermore, a couple of M-boat subscribers to Ken Diehl mailing list pointed out that, all things considered, one ends up sailing the 15' more often than the 17'. I took this as an indicator that the 17' is more difficult for single-handers to rig, launch, and retrieve than the 15' which is less than half its weight. Moreover, I started worrying about shallow launch ramps. The operative word for water in the Chesapeake and its tribs is "Shallow"! The M-17 draws 21" board up, and the M-15 only 14". For many ramps designed to float mainly small fishing power boats, this could be a dispositive difference on whether you can get into the water where you would like to launch, or not. However, it is pretty clear that, whereas the 17' could be acceptable for two for an overnight sail, the 15' is just not commodious enough for a real lady in her late 50s -- my wife! So, as has been usual in 32 years of marriage, my wife again proves herself to be a good sport with a positive attitude and says in response to these and other dithering remarks I make, "Well, if the 17' is too heavy for our cars, you could just get an old bigger car or pickup or van at a cheap price to pull it with. We could go for a vacation in New England and elsewhere with it and have a great time sailing in Maine, for example." So, once more my wife disarms me with the upbeat attitude despite the fact that we already have a Com-pac 27 which I have turned into a floating palace and a 10' Boatex tender with motor. So, comrades, what to do: Is the 17' hard to rig, launch, and retrieve for one person pushing 60 but still able to punch holes through 1/2" plaster board while laughing at the effort?! How about the mast raising/lowering? I just don't have any experience with trailer sailers. Would I be more prudent and get to sail more -- and more easily -- if I started with the M-15, or am I being a fraidy cat? Also, of course, although eithe boat will be used overwhelmingly by me as a single-hander, I don't want to disfranchise my wife with the smaller M-15. Any advice would be appreciated! Bob Eeg has a M-17 ready for delivery with all the options I would want and he can do the same options on the M-15. What would you do if you were me? Cost is not the problem. Jerry Donaldson ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: Fritz Stuneck Subject: Re: M_Boats: Montgomery 15 or 17 For Single-Handed Date: 27 Jan 2001 08:17:59 -0600 Gerald - Just couldn't resist answering your query about size and length, so here's a few thoughts from a 50+ married sailor with 5 boats past experience. Here's the general rule of thumb for sailboats: Always try to get the biggest boat you can afford in the size range that will do the job for you. Size range, etc: Trailerables fall generally into something above 12 ft to about 25 ft. When you get up to 25 ft you are dealing with a "transportable" sailboat, not an easily launchable, frequently launched and sailed boat. With sailors and their wives (our age), the thought of launching and raising the mast and all the stuff that goes with a 25 footer isn't fun. Can be done, but not fun. Would I do it seasonally at a marina (in and out), or for a vacation? Sure. But not on a regular basis. Besides, 25 footers also don't use the smaller 2 hp Hondas for power. Just lifting my old 7.5 Merc onto the back of the boat was a pain. Therefore, the 22 ft boats are about the maximum that can still be called "trailerable". The 15 foot Montgomery is cute as a bugs ear, but just too darn small. It's a great boat for a lot of people. Everyone will be arguing this point to some extreme end. Here's a good case for getting on board the two side by side at a show or dealer. By going to the M-17 you get all the good points, and very few negatives! Try to get a sail on an M-15 by all means. Chances are that there will be an M-17 nearby anyway. We haul an M-17 these days with a 97 Jeep Cherokee at 70mph easily and still get reasonable milieage. Without the sailboat the Jeep gets 23 avg. With the boat, it drops down some to around 18-19mpg. The reason I mention the Jeep is because it gives good power, economy and 4WD for launching and there are a million of them around. The M-15 probably does launch a little easier, and perhaps even into somewhat shallower water, but they both have to be rigged, outboard put on the transom, the usual lines, etc. The M-17 floats off the trailer very easy (almost instantly because of the shape of the transom) and you could also use an extender on the trailer if you needed to. It takes us just under 40 min. to launch and set up the M-17, cause we're slow. The rudder is the part that is hard to fool with, ours being the older M-17. It's sort of always in the way, being as big as it is. But the mast goes up with one person or two if you have a helper. Two is always better for that sort of thing, but I've done it myself many times. I have also flown a spinnaker myself on light air days when I was a bit younger; today, probably not. Our main objection to the M-15 (when the decision time came for us) was the foredeck space. There was barely room to turn around. The deck walkspace next to the cabin is too narrow. You will have to walk on the cabin top and go past the mast to get up to the foredeck. (Many boats have been designed in the past without those side walkways. Cal did that with their early 20's, but Cal 25 racer; also Tanzer and others.) The M-15 cabin was neat, but just way too small to consider overnighting. Good place to throw sailbags, whisker pole, cooler, toolbag, etc and picnic basket. Perhaps in the summer with a tent over the boom would work for overnighting if the weather cooperated. You'd be okay trailering and launching yourself an M-15, but get your wife on board, or take along another couple for a daysail and space is cramped, especially for overnight. So, having experience with a Compac 27, I believe you would feel enormously cramped with an M-15, but probably amazed at the cockpit size of the M-17 and even more surprized how well it launches and sails compared to other similar types of boats. PS -We have previously owned and trailered the below listed: 14 foot wood sloop (first sailboat back in 1972) Balboa 20 Cal 25 Catalina 22 M-17 (purchased in 1998 and presently still owned) Notice that we went up in size while we were in the "bigger is better" state of mind and much younger. If I were going to spend more time in the marina and were looking for another boat, it would be the Tanzer 22, or another Catalina 22. Both of those are a bit harder to launch than the M-17, trailer just a bit harder because of length; but don't offer enough more benefits to consider trading up just for the heck of it. Therefore, IMHO, the best trailerable boat for the money and size range is the M-17. ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: Gerald Donaldson Subject: Re: M_Boats: Montgomery 15 or 17 For Single-HandedLaunching/Retrieval? Date: 27 Jan 2001 09:22:08 -0500 Fritz, thank you for being so kind to take the time to provide your experienced view of the pluses and minuses of the M-15 vs. M-17. The quandary is twofold: size of accommodations plus ease of rigging plus ease of launching and retrieval; and, second, the fact that it is virtually certain that the M-17 will force the purchase of yet another vehicle. So in the end some form of benefit/cost ratio has to be calculated using the inevitable admixture of heart plus head (= pseudo-rational exercise!!). Best regards, Jerry Donaldson Fritz Stuneck wrote: > Gerald - Just couldn't resist answering your query about size and > length, so here's a few thoughts from a 50+ married sailor with 5 > boats past experience. > > Here's the general rule of thumb for sailboats: Always try > to get the biggest boat you can afford in the size range that will do > the job for you. > > Size range, etc: Trailerables fall generally into something > above 12 ft to about 25 ft. When you get up to 25 ft you are dealing > with a "transportable" sailboat, not an easily launchable, frequently > launched and sailed boat. With sailors and their wives (our age), the > thought of launching and raising the mast and all the stuff that goes > with a 25 footer isn't fun. Can be done, but not fun. Would I do it > seasonally at a marina (in and out), or for a vacation? Sure. But not > on a regular basis. Besides, 25 footers also don't use the smaller 2 > hp Hondas for power. Just lifting my old 7.5 Merc onto the back of > the boat was a pain. Therefore, the 22 ft boats are about the maximum > that can still be called "trailerable". > > The 15 foot Montgomery is cute as a bugs ear, but just too > darn small. It's a great boat for a lot of people. Everyone will be > arguing this point to some extreme end. Here's a good case for > getting on board the two side by side at a show or dealer. By going > to the M-17 you get all the good points, and very few negatives! Try > to get a sail on an M-15 by all means. Chances are that there will be > an M-17 nearby anyway. > > We haul an M-17 these days with a 97 Jeep Cherokee at 70mph > easily and still get reasonable milieage. Without the sailboat the > Jeep gets 23 avg. With the boat, it drops down some to around > 18-19mpg. The reason I mention the Jeep is because it gives good > power, economy and 4WD for launching and there are a million of them > around. The M-15 probably does launch a little easier, and perhaps > even into somewhat shallower water, but they both have to be rigged, > outboard put on the transom, the usual lines, etc. The M-17 floats > off the trailer very easy (almost instantly because of the shape of > the transom) and you could also use an extender on the trailer if > you needed to. It takes us just under 40 min. to launch and set up > the M-17, cause we're slow. The rudder is the part that is hard to > fool with, ours being the older M-17. It's sort of always in the way, > being as big as it is. But the mast goes up with one person or two if > you have a helper. Two is always better for that sort of thing, but > I've done it myself many times. I have also flown a spinnaker myself > on light air days when I was a bit younger; today, probably not. > > Our main objection to the M-15 (when the decision time came > for us) was the foredeck space. There was barely room to turn around. > The deck walkspace next to the cabin is too narrow. You will have to > walk on the cabin top and go past the mast to get up to the foredeck. > (Many boats have been designed in the past without those side > walkways. Cal did that with their early 20's, but Cal 25 racer; also > Tanzer and others.) The M-15 cabin was neat, but just way too small > to consider overnighting. Good place to throw sailbags, whisker pole, > cooler, toolbag, etc and picnic basket. Perhaps in the summer with a > tent over the boom would work for overnighting if the weather > cooperated. You'd be okay trailering and launching yourself an M-15, > but get your wife on board, or take along another couple for a > daysail and space is cramped, especially for overnight. > > So, having experience with a Compac 27, I believe you would > feel enormously cramped with an M-15, but probably amazed at the > cockpit size of the M-17 and even more surprized how well it launches > and sails compared to other similar types of boats. > > PS -We have previously owned and trailered the below listed: > 14 foot wood sloop (first sailboat back in 1972) > Balboa 20 > Cal 25 > Catalina 22 > M-17 (purchased in 1998 and presently still owned) > > Notice that we went up in size while we were in the "bigger is > better" state of mind and much younger. If I were going to spend more > time in the marina and were looking for another boat, it would be the > Tanzer 22, or another Catalina 22. Both of those are a bit harder to > launch than the M-17, trailer just a bit harder because of length; > but don't offer enough more benefits to consider trading up just for > the heck of it. Therefore, IMHO, the best trailerable boat for the > money and size range is the M-17. ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: LBarkhuff@cs.com Subject: Re: M_Boats: Montgomery 15 or 17 For Single-Handed Launching/Retrieval? Date: 27 Jan 2001 09:28:10 EST Jerry, you could not go wrong with the 17. There isn't that much difference in the "size of the boat", but the accommodations are more useable....ask Harvey Wilson if he thinks it is too much.....Larry ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: Peter Jacobs Subject: Re: M_Boats: Montgomery 15 or 17 For Single-Handed Launching/Retrieval? Date: 27 Jan 2001 09:25:21 -0800 Gerald Donaldson wrote: > Would I be more prudent and get to sail more -- and more > easily -- if I started with the M-15, or am I being a fraidy cat? Also, > of course, although eithe boat will be used overwhelmingly by me as a > single-hander, I don't want to disfranchise my wife with the smaller > M-15. > Any advice would be appreciated! Bob Eeg has a M-17 ready for > delivery with all the options I would want and he can do the same > options on the M-15. What would you do if you were me? Cost is not the > problem........ Jerry, I'd advise you to find someone close with an M17 and try the mast raising. I'm 53, and have to watch my back carefully, yet have no trouble raising the M17 mast. I usually sail solo, especially this time of year, and have no problems rigging and launching. I'm trying to think of anything one does on an M17 launch that is not needed on an M15 launch .... hmmmm... anyone? -Peter- -- ======================== Peter Jacobs, M17 "Enfin" Victoria BC Canada http://www.islandnet.com/~pjacobs/homepage.htm ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: Peter Jacobs Subject: Re: M_Boats: Montgomery 15 or 17 For Single-Handed Launching/Retrieval? Date: 27 Jan 2001 09:35:08 -0800 One more thought, Jerry: Hey, if you get one (15 or 17) and it doesn't work out you can always trade up or down for the other. Either way you get to sample a great little boat. BTW, I have no experience with the 15, but am glad I got the 17 when I'm out in the middle of the Straight and it starts to blow. On another subject, I just finished making a storm jib and was amazed at what kind of weather I can stay out in with 2 reefs in the main and the new jib up. The boat moves right along, without too much heel, and completley under control. I'm currently building an asymetrical spinaker for the other extreme of weather conditions. There's a freeware program at http://home.mediaplaza.nl/michiel/rlaine/index.html that makes homemade sail-making a little easier. -Peter- -- ======================== Peter Jacobs M17 "Enfin" Victoria BC Canada http://www.islandnet.com/~pjacobs/homepage.htm ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: Peter Jacobs Subject: Re: M_Boats: Left/Best Coast Date: 27 Jan 2001 09:42:23 -0800 Richard Lane wrote: > > Annacortes or Bellingham are good launching spots as is Port Townsend,....... I have to agree with you guys about the Straight: you have to pick your weather, and with only a week the chances of getting two good crossings are not good. I've been stuck out there in the summer in a rough chop and zero wind more than once ... not a happy situation. It would be great to arrange a rendevous somewhere so we could come from our departure points of choice. and continue the cruise from there. I'm open to any date. -Peter- -- ======================== Peter Jacobs M17 "Enfin" Victoria BC Canada http://www.islandnet.com/~pjacobs/homepage.htm ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: Bob Olson Subject: M_Boats: Re: Montgomery 15 or 17 For Single-Handed Launching/Retrieval? Date: 27 Jan 2001 11:35:22 -0700 >I'm trying to think of anything one does on an M17 launch that is not >needed on an M15 launch .... hmmmm... anyone? > >-Peter- The only difference that comes to my mind -- even though I have an M-15 not an M-17 -- would be the added difficulties in launching, docking etc. due to the added weight of the 17. I launch mine on Puget Sound at Redondo, WA. And it gets pretty crowded on the weekends. With limited dock space for launching and retrieving, it's nice to be able to push, pull and spin the lighter M-15 around when I need to. I would imangine that the extra 700 or so pounds of the M-17 would make that alot more difficult considering that I'm usually by myself when launching. When I'm ready to retire in about five years, I'll be ready for a slip and an M-17. Until then, the 15 works for me. I had my wife and 3 year old out on it last year and we all fit nicely. My three year old even slept for a few hours. See photo; http://home.earthlink.net/~bobo4u/brian.JPG Bob Olson M-15 #296 "Piccolo" Kent, WA ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: "Morris, Giles" Subject: RE: M_Boats: Montgomery 15 or 17 For Single-Handed Launching/Retr Date: 27 Jan 2001 14:12:46 -0600 >However, it is pretty clear that, whereas the 17' could be acceptable >for two for an overnight sail, the 15' is just not commodious enough for >a real lady in her late 50s -- my wife! I agree. For me, alone, my M-15 cabin is fine. With my son (8 y.o.), it's fine. With my wife, it's not fine. She finds it just too small. Giles Morris Arlington VA Montgomery 15 #264 "Umiaq" Vancouver 25 #002 Dolphin Sundry kayaks ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: Doug Kelch Subject: Re: M_Boats: Montgomery 15 or 17 For Single-Handed Launching/Retrieval? Date: 27 Jan 2001 15:28:27 -0500 Gerald, What a difficult quandry, choosing between two excellent boats. I will give you the M15 side. Anyone who thinks the M15 is not a (resonably) comfortable cruiser is absolutely wrong. I am 5' 8" and in my mid 50s and not as limber as I once was. My 5' 7" daughter and I have spent many a comfortable night anchored out. On the first Montgomery cruise I went on an M17 skipper had to leave unexpectedly after a few days. I offered his guest a berth in my M15 for a couple of nights and his comments after sleeping two in the M17 for two nights, and the M15 for two nights was that the M15 was more comfortable. The next year I offered a berth to Tod for a couple of nights and he was quite comfortable with the two of us. He checked out the M15 and the M17 and chose the M17 (hmmm maybee he wasn't so comfortable) I spent 22 nights on board the M15 the first year I had it (mostly single) and have spent 15 - 20 nights every year in the ensuing 3 yrs. I towed the M15 from Reston VA to Hyannis, sailed to Tuckernuck Is (next to Nantucket - 30 nm offshore) in 15 - 18 kts of wind with the 1 - 3kt currents in Nantucket sound and had a great time. The previous year I tried the same trip but the winds were 20kts to 30kts so I didn't attempt the crossing but went out and played in the 8 ft seas for a while with no real difficulty other than the fact that tacking into the wind and waves severely limited progress. The M15 handled superbly. I was initially extremely nerverous but after 1/2 hr and greenies on board my legs stopped shaking so much. I have done a 10 day cruise on the Chesapeak with sunny days, thunderstorms and rainy days and it was all great fun. The M15 is a great boat. It fits in my garage, tows so easily I almost forget it's there and is ok to launch. The car tires are usually in 3 inchs of water to float the M15 off the trailer. I suspect the M17 would be no worse. The down side of the M15 is the fact that it is a smaller boat. To sleep two in the cabin you have to move most of the gear out to the cockpit so you have to protect the gear from the dew and possible rain. The seats are angled slightly from the horizontal and they hold water (true of most sailboats) and can get the gear wet. The M15 cabin in the rain, with the hatchs closed is awful. I have no extra ventilation and the inside of the cabin turns to fog in about 5 minutes. My $5 blue poly tarp saves the day most of the time but is not very elegant. The cockpit comparision between the two is obvioulsy in favor of the M17. The M15 is a might crowded with two people but is comfortable. With three some one will be standing in the cabin. $ for $ pound for pound and fun per pound ($) the 15 wins. I would love to swap boats for a day on the next rondevouz to prove this :) If however it makes the difference between a cruise in Maine with the wife or staying home then by all means go for the M17. They are both great boats. I also own a CD25 and am finding that I enjoy the M15 a little more ( the kick up rudder is great on the Bay) Thanks Doug Kelch "Seas the Day" M15 "Moon Shadow" CD25 Gerald Donaldson wrote: > Well, here I was ready to spring for a new M-15 with Bob Eeg at Nor'sea > (who has been generous and gentlemanly trying to accommodate my > anxieties and my imponderables about trailering) when my wife at dinner > tonight asks, "What did you decide about getting another, smaller > overnighter." I replied that I still was unsure about either of our V-6 > mid-sized sedans being able to haul 2,500 lbs.of boat, gear, and > trailer, so I was leaning towards having Bob do a M-15 rather than a > M-17. I asked Bob if he could do certain custom work on the 15' and he > readily agreed. > Also, I pointed out that the 15' on the hoof with gear would be in > the vicinity of 1,200 lbs. and that I had little doubt about the ability > of either car to pull that. Furthermore, a couple of M-boat subscribers > to Ken Diehl mailing list pointed out that, all things considered, one > ends up sailing the 15' more often than the 17'. I took this as an > indicator that the 17' is more difficult for single-handers to rig, > launch, and retrieve than the 15' which is less than half its weight. > Moreover, I started worrying about shallow launch ramps. The > operative word for water in the Chesapeake and its tribs is "Shallow"! > The M-17 draws 21" board up, and the M-15 only 14". For many ramps > designed to float mainly small fishing power boats, this could be a > dispositive difference on whether you can get into the water where you > would like to launch, or not. > However, it is pretty clear that, whereas the 17' could be acceptable > for two for an overnight sail, the 15' is just not commodious enough for > a real lady in her late 50s -- my wife! > So, as has been usual in 32 years of marriage, my wife again proves > herself to be a good sport with a positive attitude and says in response > to these and other dithering remarks I make, "Well, if the 17' is too > heavy for our cars, you could just get an old bigger car or pickup or > van at a cheap price to pull it with. We could go for a vacation in New > England and elsewhere with it and have a great time sailing in Maine, > for example." So, once more my wife disarms me with the upbeat attitude > despite the fact that we already have a Com-pac 27 which I have turned > into a floating palace and a 10' Boatex tender with motor. > So, comrades, what to do: Is the 17' hard to rig, launch, and > retrieve for one person pushing 60 but still able to punch holes through > 1/2" plaster board while laughing at the effort?! How about the mast > raising/lowering? I just don't have any experience with trailer > sailers. Would I be more prudent and get to sail more -- and more > easily -- if I started with the M-15, or am I being a fraidy cat? Also, > of course, although eithe boat will be used overwhelmingly by me as a > single-hander, I don't want to disfranchise my wife with the smaller > M-15. > Any advice would be appreciated! Bob Eeg has a M-17 ready for > delivery with all the options I would want and he can do the same > options on the M-15. What would you do if you were me? Cost is not the > problem. > Jerry Donaldson ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: Saltm17@aol.com Subject: Re: M_Boats: Montgomery 15 or 17 For Single-Handed Launching/Retrieval? Date: 27 Jan 2001 15:42:20 EST Well let me put my two cents in. I think the M17 is a bit more of an effort to launch, but neither will break your back. I am 57 and sinmgle hand my M17 about 95% of the time. Stepping the mast is not a problem at all..I can walk it up without any problems. even do it 3 or 4 times like at the 2000 Chesapeake Rendezvous (had a problem with the jib halyard. I haven't sailed the M15, but from all reports it will take a lot of wind and water. The M17 is a better sailor on the wind, the extra weight really helps going to windward. But the main advantage is more space below. I have increased girth with age (sad to say) and still have a lot of room to sleep and carry the far-too-many- things I take with me when I go cruising. The truth is..you won't go wrong with either boat. Good luck ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: "Bill Riker" Subject: RE: M_Boats: Montgomery 15 or 17 For single-handed Launching/Retrieval? Date: 27 Jan 2001 11:38:09 -0500 Jerry, I love my M15 for all the reasons you mentioned, but I'm a singlehander. The only boat my wife might consider for overnighting would need to have "Carnival" on the stern. IMHO, cruising in the M15 just wouldn't be comfortable for two people. You would end up going it alone, or using the boat less and less often. So I would go with the 17, a boat built for two. Some of our guys have easy methods for raising the M17 mast, and some just manhandle it up alone. Just get a depth meter and watch your rudder in the shallows. And a tow vehicle, of course. Bill Riker M-15 #184 Storm Petrel -----Original Message----- [mailto:owner-montgomery_boats@lists.xmission.com]On Behalf Of Gerald Donaldson Sent: January 27, 2001 4:12 AM Launching/Retrieval? Well, here I was ready to spring for a new M-15 with Bob Eeg at Nor'sea (who has been generous and gentlemanly trying to accommodate my anxieties and my imponderables about trailering) when my wife at dinner tonight asks, "What did you decide about getting another, smaller overnighter." I replied that I still was unsure about either of our V-6 mid-sized sedans being able to haul 2,500 lbs.of boat, gear, and trailer, so I was leaning towards having Bob do a M-15 rather than a M-17. I asked Bob if he could do certain custom work on the 15' and he readily agreed. Also, I pointed out that the 15' on the hoof with gear would be in the vicinity of 1,200 lbs. and that I had little doubt about the ability of either car to pull that. Furthermore, a couple of M-boat subscribers to Ken Diehl mailing list pointed out that, all things considered, one ends up sailing the 15' more often than the 17'. I took this as an indicator that the 17' is more difficult for single-handers to rig, launch, and retrieve than the 15' which is less than half its weight. Moreover, I started worrying about shallow launch ramps. The operative word for water in the Chesapeake and its tribs is "Shallow"! The M-17 draws 21" board up, and the M-15 only 14". For many ramps designed to float mainly small fishing power boats, this could be a dispositive difference on whether you can get into the water where you would like to launch, or not. However, it is pretty clear that, whereas the 17' could be acceptable for two for an overnight sail, the 15' is just not commodious enough for a real lady in her late 50s -- my wife! So, as has been usual in 32 years of marriage, my wife again proves herself to be a good sport with a positive attitude and says in response to these and other dithering remarks I make, "Well, if the 17' is too heavy for our cars, you could just get an old bigger car or pickup or van at a cheap price to pull it with. We could go for a vacation in New England and elsewhere with it and have a great time sailing in Maine, for example." So, once more my wife disarms me with the upbeat attitude despite the fact that we already have a Com-pac 27 which I have turned into a floating palace and a 10' Boatex tender with motor. So, comrades, what to do: Is the 17' hard to rig, launch, and retrieve for one person pushing 60 but still able to punch holes through 1/2" plaster board while laughing at the effort?! How about the mast raising/lowering? I just don't have any experience with trailer sailers. Would I be more prudent and get to sail more -- and more easily -- if I started with the M-15, or am I being a fraidy cat? Also, of course, although eithe boat will be used overwhelmingly by me as a single-hander, I don't want to disfranchise my wife with the smaller M-15. Any advice would be appreciated! Bob Eeg has a M-17 ready for delivery with all the options I would want and he can do the same options on the M-15. What would you do if you were me? Cost is not the problem. Jerry Donaldson ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: Bob Olson Subject: Re: M_Boats: Montgomery 15 or 17 For Single-Handed Launching/Retrieval? Date: 27 Jan 2001 14:56:59 -0700 > The M15 is a great boat. It fits in my garage.... >Thanks >Doug Kelch >"Seas the Day" M15 >"Moon Shadow" CD25 Living proof. The M-15 sleeping through the winter in its natural habitat -- a normal sized garage with plenty of petroleum-based nesting materials. This photo is not a fake! http://home.earthlink.net/~bobo4u/piccolo_garage.JPG Bob Olson M-15 #296 "Piccolo" Kent, WA ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: "Joe Kidd" Subject: M_Boats: Montgomery 15 or 17? Date: 27 Jan 2001 14:54:11 -0800 Jerry, Between the M15 and M17, you pay your money and make your choice... or, more accurately, you make your choice and pay your money. For most of us, the money is the deciding factor. I love my M15 but my admirable thinks the cabin is too cramped for long term overnighting. The difference between the two boats is that one is a minimalist pocket cruiser and the other is a small pocket cruiser... kinda like the difference between backpacking and camping with a car full of gear, but still roughing it. If you can afford either boat, winter storage is not a problem, have (or can get) an adequate tow vehicle and you intend to do a lot of double-handed cruising or daysailing with a crowd of friends, by all means get the M17. You'll be more comfortable. If you want a lively, easy to sail, park, tow, and launch mini-cruiser and want the most bang for your buck in a quality-built boat, buy the M15. Joe Kidd M15 #207 "Poco A Poco" ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: "Joe Kidd" Subject: Re: M_Boats: Montgomery 15 or 17 For Single-Handed Launching/Retrieval? Date: 27 Jan 2001 14:57:39 -0800 Bob, You need a larger garage so you can store even more toys. Joe Kidd M15 #207 "Poco a Poco" ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: "Joe Kidd" Subject: Re: M_Boats: Montgomery 15 or 17 For Single-Handed Launching/Retrieval? Date: 27 Jan 2001 15:36:29 -0800 Of course, the storage problem could be solved by getting rid of the tricycle... Joe ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: Bob Olson Subject: Re: M_Boats: Montgomery 15 or 17 For Single-Handed Launching/Retrieval? Date: 27 Jan 2001 15:53:57 -0700 >Bob, > > You need a larger garage so you can store even more toys. > > Joe Kidd M15 #207 "Poco a Poco" > > > But I'd have to get a bigger "junkyard cat" to protect my stuff. Bob ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: Gerald Donaldson Subject: Re: M_Boats: Montgomery 15 or 17 For Single-Handed Launching/Retrieval? Date: 27 Jan 2001 19:38:25 -0500 Thanks for the advice, Giles -- I really appreciate it. I was tending towards the 15, but now I'm swinging back towards the 17, so ambivalence is now the order of the day. Fortunately, not being Buridan's Ass, I will choose one or the other, and not starve to death while being unable to decide between two bales of hay. BTW, I have found the Montgomery owners' group to be the best sail bag of owners and enthusiasts I've ever run across. That plus the quality of the boat and the rather astounding personal involvement of Bob Eeg makes you feel good about the entire concept of buying and sailing a Mont. If you are in Arlington, I'm only a quarter of the way around the Beltway from you, one block into Maryland (Chevy Chase) over the D.C. line, next to Rock Creek Park. Hope to meet you some time, esp. on the water (that is, when I'm not sitting on my Com-pac 27 in its expensive berth and doing endless maintenance!). Best regards, Jerry Donaldson "Morris, Giles" wrote: > >However, it is pretty clear that, whereas the 17' could be acceptable > >for two for an overnight sail, the 15' is just not commodious enough for > >a real lady in her late 50s -- my wife! > > I agree. For me, alone, my M-15 cabin is fine. With my son (8 y.o.), it's > fine. With my wife, it's not fine. She finds it just too small. > > Giles Morris > Arlington VA > Montgomery 15 #264 "Umiaq" > Vancouver 25 #002 Dolphin > Sundry kayaks ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: Gerald Donaldson Subject: Re: M_Boats: Montgomery 15 or 17 For Single-Handed Launching/Retrieval? Date: 27 Jan 2001 19:46:40 -0500 Doug, thank you so much for taking the time to provide your very balanced, fair opinion. As I have mentioned to other respondents (and there have been many), I am amazed at the personable, helpful manner of the Montgomery enthusiasts. This is the best bunch of sailors I've ever found popping out of a sail bag! And I have been equally astounded at the repeated personal attention of Bob Eeg who has provided encouragement, correction, and helpful information without applying the least sales pressure -- a good omen for future assistance with imponderable difficulties! (I have fortunately found the same helpful manner from the Hutchins Bros. of Hutchins Marine in Florida, the manufacturers of my Com-pac 27). If you are in Reston, then I am only a short drive away around the Beltway from Chevy Chase, MD. If (or is "after") I buy a Mont., I hope to see you on the water. Best regards, Jerry Donaldson Doug Kelch wrote: > Gerald, > > What a difficult quandry, choosing between two excellent boats. I will > give you the M15 side. > Anyone who thinks the M15 is not a (resonably) comfortable cruiser is > absolutely wrong. I am 5' 8" and in my mid 50s and not as limber as I once > was. My 5' 7" daughter and I have spent many a comfortable night anchored > out. On the first Montgomery cruise I went on an M17 skipper had to leave > unexpectedly after a few days. I offered his guest a berth in my M15 for a > couple of nights and his comments after sleeping two in the M17 for two > nights, and the M15 for two nights was that the M15 was more comfortable. > The next year I offered a berth to Tod for a couple of nights and he was > quite comfortable with the two of us. He checked out the M15 and the M17 > and chose the M17 (hmmm maybee he wasn't so comfortable) > I spent 22 nights on board the M15 the first year I had it (mostly > single) and have spent 15 - 20 nights every year in the ensuing 3 yrs. I > towed the M15 from Reston VA to Hyannis, sailed to Tuckernuck Is (next to > Nantucket - 30 nm offshore) in 15 - 18 kts of wind with the 1 - 3kt currents > in Nantucket sound and had a great time. > The previous year I tried the same trip but the winds were 20kts to > 30kts so I didn't attempt the crossing but went out and played in the 8 ft > seas for a while with no real difficulty other than the fact that tacking > into the wind and waves severely limited progress. The M15 handled > superbly. I was initially extremely nerverous but after 1/2 hr and greenies > on board my legs stopped shaking so much. > I have done a 10 day cruise on the Chesapeak with sunny days, > thunderstorms and rainy days and it was all great fun. > The M15 is a great boat. It fits in my garage, tows so easily I almost > forget it's there and is ok to launch. The car tires are usually in 3 inchs > of water to float the M15 off the trailer. I suspect the M17 would be no > worse. > The down side of the M15 is the fact that it is a smaller boat. To > sleep two in the cabin you have to move most of the gear out to the cockpit > so you have to protect the gear from the dew and possible rain. The seats > are angled slightly from the horizontal and they hold water (true of most > sailboats) and can get the gear wet. The M15 cabin in the rain, with the > hatchs closed is awful. I have no extra ventilation and the inside of the > cabin turns to fog in about 5 minutes. My $5 blue poly tarp saves the day > most of the time but is not very elegant. > The cockpit comparision between the two is obvioulsy in favor of the > M17. The M15 is a might crowded with two people but is comfortable. With > three some one will be standing in the cabin. > $ for $ pound for pound and fun per pound ($) the 15 wins. I would > love to swap boats for a day on the next rondevouz to prove this :) > If however it makes the difference between a cruise in Maine with the > wife or staying home then by all means go for the M17. > They are both great boats. I also own a CD25 and am finding that I enjoy the > M15 a little more ( the kick up rudder is great on the Bay) > > Thanks > Doug Kelch > "Seas the Day" M15 > "Moon Shadow" CD25 > > Gerald Donaldson wrote: > > > Well, here I was ready to spring for a new M-15 with Bob Eeg at Nor'sea > > (who has been generous and gentlemanly trying to accommodate my > > anxieties and my imponderables about trailering) when my wife at dinner > > tonight asks, "What did you decide about getting another, smaller > > overnighter." I replied that I still was unsure about either of our V-6 > > mid-sized sedans being able to haul 2,500 lbs.of boat, gear, and > > trailer, so I was leaning towards having Bob do a M-15 rather than a > > M-17. I asked Bob if he could do certain custom work on the 15' and he > > readily agreed. > > Also, I pointed out that the 15' on the hoof with gear would be in > > the vicinity of 1,200 lbs. and that I had little doubt about the ability > > of either car to pull that. Furthermore, a couple of M-boat subscribers > > to Ken Diehl mailing list pointed out that, all things considered, one > > ends up sailing the 15' more often than the 17'. I took this as an > > indicator that the 17' is more difficult for single-handers to rig, > > launch, and retrieve than the 15' which is less than half its weight. > > Moreover, I started worrying about shallow launch ramps. The > > operative word for water in the Chesapeake and its tribs is "Shallow"! > > The M-17 draws 21" board up, and the M-15 only 14". For many ramps > > designed to float mainly small fishing power boats, this could be a > > dispositive difference on whether you can get into the water where you > > would like to launch, or not. > > However, it is pretty clear that, whereas the 17' could be acceptable > > for two for an overnight sail, the 15' is just not commodious enough for > > a real lady in her late 50s -- my wife! > > So, as has been usual in 32 years of marriage, my wife again proves > > herself to be a good sport with a positive attitude and says in response > > to these and other dithering remarks I make, "Well, if the 17' is too > > heavy for our cars, you could just get an old bigger car or pickup or > > van at a cheap price to pull it with. We could go for a vacation in New > > England and elsewhere with it and have a great time sailing in Maine, > > for example." So, once more my wife disarms me with the upbeat attitude > > despite the fact that we already have a Com-pac 27 which I have turned > > into a floating palace and a 10' Boatex tender with motor. > > So, comrades, what to do: Is the 17' hard to rig, launch, and > > retrieve for one person pushing 60 but still able to punch holes through > > 1/2" plaster board while laughing at the effort?! How about the mast > > raising/lowering? I just don't have any experience with trailer > > sailers. Would I be more prudent and get to sail more -- and more > > easily -- if I started with the M-15, or am I being a fraidy cat? Also, > > of course, although eithe boat will be used overwhelmingly by me as a > > single-hander, I don't want to disfranchise my wife with the smaller > > M-15. > > Any advice would be appreciated! Bob Eeg has a M-17 ready for > > delivery with all the options I would want and he can do the same > > options on the M-15. What would you do if you were me? Cost is not the > > problem. > > Jerry Donaldson ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: LBarkhuff@cs.com Subject: Re: M_Boats: Montgomery 15 or 17 For Single-Handed Launching/Retrieval? Date: 27 Jan 2001 20:59:00 EST The comments about a tow vehicle for a 17 interest me. I towed two different 17's from Jerry factory in Costa Mesa Ca to Las Vegas, with the same Toyota PU, with the little 2000R 4 cyl engine and a five speed trans......There are a few long climbs from sea level to 2800 feet, and I never really had a problem. I did bend the braces for the bumper hitch once backing it into my driveway, but I bought two more, pounded straight with a hammer, and welded, so i doubled, and never had any other problems. I towed and launched with the little truck.......Larry ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: Doug King Subject: M_Boats: 15 vs 17 discussion Date: 27 Jan 2001 21:39:33 -0500 I'd like to put up much of the discussion about this seething (yet exceedingly civil) hotbed of controversy on the web site. This issue crops up frequently and I think it's worth it. Please email me if any of the participants object. Left Coasters may want to consider working out early details for your rendezvous in the MSOG Chat Room. No time difference problems, and I'd be interested to know if it works out should you decide to try it. There is a list of items for the MSOG that have been requested by various people. Please check out the "Contributors" item at the bottom of the main menu. If you can help, or have your own requests, please send them in. Thanks, Doug Doug King M-17 #404 "Vixen" MSOG Web site: http://msog.brinet.net Email: mailto:msog@brinet.net ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: Gerald Donaldson Subject: Re: M_Boats: Montgomery 15 or 17 For Single-Handed Launching/Retrieval? Date: 27 Jan 2001 23:41:37 -0500 Thanks, Larry. From the experienced views of a number of other posters, plus the info on several web sites about towing, it seems that the size of the engine and the tranny are important, but not the only, parts of the equation. Unibody construction for passenger cars apparently substantially lowers towing capabilities. Jerry Donaldson LBarkhuff@cs.com wrote: > The comments about a tow vehicle for a 17 interest me. I towed two > different 17's from Jerry factory in Costa Mesa Ca to Las Vegas, with the > same Toyota PU, with the little 2000R 4 cyl engine and a five speed > trans......There are a few long climbs from sea level to 2800 feet, and I > never really had a problem. I did bend the braces for the bumper hitch once > backing it into my driveway, but I bought two more, pounded straight with a > hammer, and welded, so i doubled, and never had any other problems. I towed > and launched with the little truck.......Larry ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: Peter Jacobs Subject: M_Boats: M15 / M17 Date: 27 Jan 2001 21:29:52 -0800 If we do get a Left Coast Rendevous together I'd love to try someone's M15 in trade for my M17 for a few hours. I'm sure both boats will do something the other can't. -Peter- -- ======================== Peter Jacobs M17 "Enfin" Victoria BC Canada http://www.islandnet.com/~pjacobs/homepage.htm ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: "Morris, Giles" Subject: RE: M_Boats: Montgomery 15 or 17 For Single-Handed Launching/Retr Date: 28 Jan 2001 00:15:48 -0600 > I'm only a quarter of the way around the Beltway Small world. The ComPac wouldn't be the 27 just across the creek from Dolphin in Deale, would it? Giles ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: John Fleming Subject: Re: M_Boats: Montgomery 15 or 17 For Single-Handed Launching/Retrieval? Date: 27 Jan 2001 23:16:30 -0700 Here's my thoughts: Gerald Donaldson wrote: > > Furthermore, a couple of M-boat subscribers > to Ken Diehl mailing list pointed out that, all things considered, one > ends up sailing the 15' more often than the 17'. I took this as an > indicator that the 17' is more difficult for single-handers to rig, > launch, and retrieve than the 15' which is less than half its weight. The only difficult part of the M-17 to rig is the mast. Other than that, it's the same. My mast seems especially heavy, with all sorts of junk at the masthead, deck and masthead light, lines and wires run internal, and fittings for a spinnaker. I can do it now by myself, but I'm strong, and it's dicey. Some day, when I'm old and have lost some more muscle mass and with a gimpier back, I'll need a gin pole to get it up. Whenever I can, I try to store it with the mast up, at the lake or the marina. I'd imagine the M-15 never has that problem. I could probably raise its mast with one hand while not even paying attention. > However, it is pretty clear that, whereas the 17' could be acceptable > for two for an overnight sail, the 15' is just not commodious enough for > a real lady in her late 50s -- my wife! My wife doesn't even care for the M-17 in this regard. With two kids on board, there's not enough room for her, she always bumps her head, and then wishes we had a bigger boat. On the M-17, you have to move slow. Fast movement results in bumps. On the M-15, you have no choice. In some respects, you bump about less in a M-15 because there's not enough room to get limbs and heads going fast. There's another creature-comfort issue. The M-15 potty is much easier to deal with and use. The M-17 potty is very awkward to use, for both sitting and standing, especially under way. I can't believe Bob Eeg hasn't yet fixed this. But the cabin-liner definitely needs a re-design. If I were buying a new M-17, this is the only thing I'd fix. (I'd ask for other things too, but those would be customizations.) I tend to think of the M-15 as a day-sailer. The M-17 as an overnighter. They're both camping out in in a hard-walled tent. Neither can be thought of as a home on the water, unlike my friend's Laguna 26 or your Compac 27. > So, comrades, what to do: Is the 17' hard to rig, launch, and > retrieve for one person pushing 60 but still able to punch holes through > 1/2" plaster board while laughing at the effort?! How about the mast > raising/lowering? Based on that description, and if you haven't larded up the mast like I have, you'll be OK. I just don't have any experience with trailer > sailers. Would I be more prudent and get to sail more -- and more > easily -- if I started with the M-15, or am I being a fraidy cat? Also, > of course, although eithe boat will be used overwhelmingly by me as a > single-hander, I don't want to disfranchise my wife with the smaller > M-15. Here's the deal about rigging and launching. With a M-15 it's small enough that you don't put much on board, and it's easy to swing over the gunwales and stash away. With a M-17, you use all that extra storage space. (Remember all those aphorisms, work expands to fill available time, and mess expands to fill available space, etc.) With the boat on the trailer, it's so higher that it's much more cumbersome to heave stuff over the sides. So it takes longer to launch a M-17 and it's much more exercise. Everything does take longer on a M-17. That means, you need a longer sailing window for the M-17 than the M-15. Which means you sail less often. Oh yes, and the outboard is heavier too. With a four-stroke, 4hp model for the M-17, it's about at the limit of safe liftability (approx 45-50 lbs). It's enough to make me want to learn to scull, and rig the M-17 for sculling. If the Pardey's can, so can I. > Bob Eeg has a M-17 ready for > delivery with all the options I would want and he can do the same > options on the M-15. What would you do if you were me? I'd still get the M-17. I like the solidity and bulk when single-handing. Having the bigger cabin gives us more options. If you like to just sail, get the M-15. If you like to sail to somewhere, get the M-17. But I'm biased ... Regards, John Fleming M-17: "Star Cross'd" ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: LBarkhuff@cs.com Subject: M_Boats: 17 mast raise Date: 28 Jan 2001 09:02:28 EST I found an article in the Trailer Sailor thing about a fellow named Doc, recently deceased, who described a spring loaded mast raising idea. Take a couple "hefty" (my words) springs, and use the stored energy when these are stretched by attaching to the headstay and the bow and help raise the mast. He described it accurately in the article, and someone can find it in the Trailer Sailor Links. Seems like a good idea for those of you discussing raising a 17 mast , etc. Just and idea... I also have gotten my oar finished. Had to figure a way to cut a 12 foot oar into two pieces and re assemble. did it like a pool cue with a piece of running thread. Seems to work ok, now have to configure an oarlock without putting holes in the boat, and see if I can become engineless.........Dick, you might like this engineering thing...Larry ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: Gerald Donaldson Subject: Re: M_Boats: Montgomery 15 or 17 For Single-Handed Launching/Retrieval? Date: 28 Jan 2001 10:50:51 -0500 Bob Eeg told me that Nor'sea has come up with an innovative 4-part tackle system which easily and quickly allows the rigger to stand off the bow and pull up the mast with almost no effort. Sounds good to me! BTW, since I have never SEEN a Montgomery (!) (my whole interest has been created and fostered in cyberspace!), how does one secure the mast? Is it a tabernacle with a single through bolt - or what? Jerry Donaldson John Fleming wrote: > Here's my thoughts: > > Gerald Donaldson wrote: > > > > Furthermore, a couple of M-boat subscribers > > to Ken Diehl mailing list pointed out that, all things considered, one > > ends up sailing the 15' more often than the 17'. I took this as an > > indicator that the 17' is more difficult for single-handers to rig, > > launch, and retrieve than the 15' which is less than half its weight. > > The only difficult part of the M-17 to rig is the mast. Other than > that, it's the same. My mast seems especially heavy, with all sorts of > junk at the masthead, deck and masthead light, lines and wires run > internal, and fittings for a spinnaker. I can do it now by myself, but > I'm strong, and it's dicey. Some day, when I'm old and have lost some > more muscle mass and with a gimpier back, I'll need a gin pole to get it > up. Whenever I can, I try to store it with the mast up, at the lake or > the marina. > > I'd imagine the M-15 never has that problem. I could probably raise its > mast with one hand while not even paying attention. > > > However, it is pretty clear that, whereas the 17' could be acceptable > > for two for an overnight sail, the 15' is just not commodious enough for > > a real lady in her late 50s -- my wife! > > My wife doesn't even care for the M-17 in this regard. With two kids on > board, there's not enough room for her, she always bumps her head, and > then wishes we had a bigger boat. On the M-17, you have to move slow. > Fast movement results in bumps. On the M-15, you have no choice. In > some respects, you bump about less in a M-15 because there's not enough > room to get limbs and heads going fast. > > There's another creature-comfort issue. The M-15 potty is much easier > to deal with and use. The M-17 potty is very awkward to use, for both > sitting and standing, especially under way. I can't believe Bob Eeg > hasn't yet fixed this. But the cabin-liner definitely needs a > re-design. If I were buying a new M-17, this is the only thing I'd fix. > (I'd ask for other things too, but those would be customizations.) > > I tend to think of the M-15 as a day-sailer. The M-17 as an > overnighter. They're both camping out in in a hard-walled tent. > Neither can be thought of as a home on the water, unlike my friend's > Laguna 26 or your Compac 27. > > > So, comrades, what to do: Is the 17' hard to rig, launch, and > > retrieve for one person pushing 60 but still able to punch holes through > > 1/2" plaster board while laughing at the effort?! How about the mast > > raising/lowering? > > Based on that description, and if you haven't larded up the mast like I > have, you'll be OK. > > I just don't have any experience with trailer > > sailers. Would I be more prudent and get to sail more -- and more > > easily -- if I started with the M-15, or am I being a fraidy cat? Also, > > of course, although eithe boat will be used overwhelmingly by me as a > > single-hander, I don't want to disfranchise my wife with the smaller > > M-15. > > Here's the deal about rigging and launching. With a M-15 it's small > enough that you don't put much on board, and it's easy to swing over the > gunwales and stash away. With a M-17, you use all that extra storage > space. > (Remember all those aphorisms, work expands to fill available time, and > mess expands to fill available space, etc.) With the boat on the > trailer, it's so higher that it's much more cumbersome to heave stuff > over the sides. So it takes longer to launch a M-17 and it's much more > exercise. Everything does take longer on a M-17. That means, you need > a longer sailing window for the M-17 than the M-15. Which means you > sail less often. > > Oh yes, and the outboard is heavier too. With a four-stroke, 4hp model > for the M-17, it's about at the limit of safe liftability (approx 45-50 > lbs). It's enough to make me want to learn to scull, and rig the M-17 > for sculling. If the Pardey's can, so can I. > > > Bob Eeg has a M-17 ready for > > delivery with all the options I would want and he can do the same > > options on the M-15. What would you do if you were me? > > I'd still get the M-17. I like the solidity and bulk when > single-handing. Having the bigger cabin gives us more options. > > If you like to just sail, get the M-15. If you like to sail to > somewhere, get the M-17. > > But I'm biased ... > > Regards, > John Fleming > M-17: "Star Cross'd" ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: Gerald Donaldson Subject: Re: M_Boats: 17 mast raise Date: 28 Jan 2001 10:56:24 -0500 Larry, are you referring to oarlocks and rowing a M-15? I've already thought of this. With a 12' oar, are you thinking of sculling? One certainly wouldn't need two 12-footers to row a M-15! I have two virtually brand-new Shawn & Tilley 7-footers made in Maine (these are the best there are -- one piece hand-turned spruce) and I think these might do on a boat with a 6'2" beam. Jerry Donaldson LBarkhuff@cs.com wrote: > I found an article in the Trailer Sailor thing about a fellow named Doc, > recently deceased, who described a spring loaded mast raising idea. > > Take a couple "hefty" (my words) springs, and use the stored energy when > these are stretched by attaching to the headstay and the bow and help raise > the mast. He described it accurately in the article, and someone can find it > in the Trailer Sailor Links. Seems like a good idea for those of you > discussing raising a 17 mast , etc. Just and idea... > > I also have gotten my oar finished. Had to figure a way to cut a 12 foot > oar into two pieces and re assemble. did it like a pool cue with a piece of > running thread. Seems to work ok, now have to configure an oarlock without > putting holes in the boat, and see if I can become engineless.........Dick, > you might like this engineering thing...Larry ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: Howard A Subject: Re: M_Boats: 17 mast raise Date: 28 Jan 2001 10:20:31 -0600 I get mine up (the mast) using the jib halyard tied to a line, which goes through a block on the bow fitting, and back to the sheet winch. Push the mast up as far as you can, then grind it up the rest of the way. Cleated off, it will hold it up until you saunter forward to pin the forestay in place. To let it down, remove the boom and reverse the process. The jib halyard is left cleated in place on the mast cleat. The backstay and shrouds are also left in place. I too have made a two piece sculling oar / boat hook. Mine separates at the junction of the blade and loom. The 3' long blade slides inside a 9" x 1/2" slit in the end of the loom and is bolted in place. Most times, however, the slit will be occupied by another piece upon which will be fitted a 9" bronze boat hook, if West Marine ever gets it off backorder. I'm making the handle of the oar/boat hook short enough (7 1/2' to 8')to slide under the cockpit, inside the cabin. The oar is intended to be the emergency third form of propulsion in case the wind dies and/or the motor won't start. Overall length of the oar, when in use, will be 9 1/2' to 10'. I have the cutout, fixed transom motor mount with a bronze oar lock mounted on the transom, next to the motor. An oar of this length should work on this boat. Have not been able to "tank" test it yet, cause all of our lakes are frozen solid. Did build and test a 1/4 scale model, and the joint on that appears to be strong enough. It's hard to believe how much torque can be created by one of those things. If it actually works, I'll be making some design sketches and will post some pictures. Howard M17, #278 LBarkhuff@cs.com wrote: > I found an article in the Trailer Sailor thing about a fellow named Doc, > recently deceased, who described a spring loaded mast raising idea. > > Take a couple "hefty" (my words) springs, and use the stored energy when > these are stretched by attaching to the headstay and the bow and help raise > the mast. He described it accurately in the article, and someone can find it > in the Trailer Sailor Links. Seems like a good idea for those of you > discussing raising a 17 mast , etc. Just and idea... > > I also have gotten my oar finished. Had to figure a way to cut a 12 foot > oar into two pieces and re assemble. did it like a pool cue with a piece of > running thread. Seems to work ok, now have to configure an oarlock without > putting holes in the boat, and see if I can become engineless.........Dick, > you might like this engineering thing...Larry ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: sparsons@canby.com (Steve Parsons) Subject: Re: M_Boats: Montgomery 15 or 17 For Single-Handed Launching/Retrieval? Date: 28 Jan 2001 11:00:01 -0800 >Jerry, >I'd advise you to find someone close with an M17 and try the mast >raising. I'm 53, and have to watch my back carefully, yet have no >trouble raising the M17 mast. I usually sail solo, especially this time >of year, and have no problems rigging and launching. > >I'm trying to think of anything one does on an M17 launch that is not >needed on an M15 launch .... hmmmm... anyone? BACKSTAY....., but I suspect you leave it attached. Steve > >-Peter- > >-- >======================== >Peter Jacobs, M17 "Enfin" >Victoria BC Canada >http://www.islandnet.com/~pjacobs/homepage.htm > > > > ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: sparsons@canby.com (Steve Parsons) Subject: Re: M_Boats: Montgomery 15 or 17 For Single-Handed Launching/Retrieval? Date: 28 Jan 2001 11:12:52 -0800 Bob, Are we related? My garage and shop are both like this:-) Steve >Living proof. The M-15 sleeping through the winter in its natural habitat >-- a normal sized garage with plenty of petroleum-based nesting materials. > >This photo is not a fake! >http://home.earthlink.net/~bobo4u/piccolo_garage.JPG > >Bob Olson >M-15 #296 "Piccolo" >Kent, WA > > > ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: sparsons@canby.com (Steve Parsons) Subject: M_Boats: Left Coast - Launch/Customs Date: 28 Jan 2001 11:30:39 -0800 Peter, Dick: Do either of you know if there are any convenient launches in the Twassen (spelling?) area? By launching in BC, we could avoid having to find a customs office in the islands. Safe storage for rig and trailer would be another important consideration... Steve ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: "Bill Riker" Subject: M_Boats: Montgomery 15 or 17 Date: 28 Jan 2001 07:59:35 -0500 The M17 vs. M15 question has been asked and answered several times since I joined the list three years ago. But never with the thought and detail of this week's correspondence. I guess we non-Arizona residents have plenty of time, during this season, for our second favorite pastime: talking about our boats. The similar conclusions, but coming from different viewpoints, provide an interesting consensus that should be helpful to future buyers. I think Doug King should post the more detailed individual messages to show the perspectives. Bill Riker M-15 #184 Storm Petrel ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: Richard Lane Subject: Re: M_Boats: Montgomery 15 or 17 For Single-Handed Launching/Retrieval? Date: 28 Jan 2001 13:46:35 -0800 I think the "Huntington Beach" rig that I used on the M23 is what you need as you age. Back stay to boom end and two guy wires from the boom end to the chain plates to stop the boom and mast falling off to the side. Use the main sheet tackle to raise the whole Kaboodle. Dick ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: Doug King Subject: Re: M_Boats: 17 mast raise Date: 28 Jan 2001 16:49:19 -0500 1. Jerry, it's a one-bolt tabernacle. I think most people only detach the forestay for lowering/trailering. I'd also like to add that, though early research is usually an enjoyable exercise in information gathering, take care not to hit "analysis paralysis", like I did. I gathered info on 12 makes, short-listed to five, put together notebooks, made weighted factors lists, etc., and ended up more undecided than before. I then decided I wanted a smaller boat, chucked it all out, and found my M-17 for sale in FL an hour later and bought it (after a survey). Just decided I'll put the survey up on the web site. After reading posts for about a year and watching Tod go through the same process, which was an enjoyable learning experience in itself ;) it is my opinion that the boat will tow easier, launch shallower, weigh less, sail faster, track better, recover quicker, and best of all, be more fun than analysis will show. 2.It could be worse. While I was at the local fabrication shop several months ago to bolster my bunkers (oooh-kinky!), the guy told me his buddy's brother in Maine had died and left him a 50+ footer with an 8' draft. The guy had to buy a truck up there to tow it back and wanted to sail it on a lake. He had this guy make a 40 FOOT trailer extension for launching! Telescoped out in three sections. Try backing that down the ramp. Where there's a will, there's a way. 3. For once, I'm a half-step ahead. I put up a page in the "How-To" section yesterday with links to several mast-raising systems including the one from Trailer-Sailer. I hoped for more information on spring size, gauge and coils, since it could make a difference, not to mention if a "spring line" parts. We have a "Springs R Us" store in the mall, between the "Scotch Tape Boutique" and "Pencil World". Thought there were some ideas in the archives, but couldn't find them in a search. If you've got a working mast-raising system, send it in; pictures a plus. 4. I do have a different, yet associated question concerning baby stays (shouldn't they be called baby shrouds?). Has anyone rigged a 17 with them for steadying the mast through the whole arc for raising and lowering while rocking on the water? I started to work on it, assuming the cabin top attachment points would be perpendicular to the centerline and in line with the mast, but no-o-o-o. Maybe on a flat cabin top, but not sloping. The point is moved forward a few inches to maintain support the whole way. If you've rigged them, I'd really like to know the measurements for placement. Or maybe one of our great engineers could calculate it. I'll put the info on the site. 5. I'm planning to put together the 15 vs. 17 page today. Hope to make it an example for future such FAQ-type docs from other folks. Basically, if you're already researching a subject, just hold on to the info for a while. Doug At 09:02 AM 1/28/01 -0500, you wrote: > I found an article in the Trailer Sailor thing about a fellow named Doc, >recently deceased, who described a spring loaded mast raising idea. Doug King M-17 #404 "Vixen" MSOG Web site: http://msog.brinet.net Email: mailto:msog@brinet.net ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: Richard Lane Subject: Re: M_Boats: Left Coast - Launch/Customs Date: 28 Jan 2001 14:05:49 -0800 I am sure that there is a ramp at Van Isle (North Sidney) but of course you will have to pay the ferry roundtrip for your rig from Annacortes to Sidney and miss a nice sail past Guemes Is. and the North San Juans to South Pender and the Canadian customs. There is good storage at Skyline (part of Annacortes). Dick Steve Parsons wrote: > Peter, Dick: > > Do either of you know if there are any convenient launches in the Twassen > (spelling?) area? By launching in BC, we could avoid having to find a > customs office in the islands. Safe storage for rig and trailer would be > another important consideration... > > Steve ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: Conbert H Benneck Subject: Re: M_Boats: Montgomery 15 or 17 For Single-Handed Launching/Retrieval? Date: 28 Jan 2001 17:45:20 -0500 Jerry, Let me try and assist you in your decision process: M15 or M17? I currently own an M15 and find it absolutely a delightful vessel. Previously, I had a 29 footer, a 38 footer, a Bolger MICRO, a ComPac 16, just so you know where I'm coming from. I think you have to come to a decision as to how many nights you intend to spend on board. One or two nights at a time, and you just have to accept the limitations of an M15. If you want to go off for a week at a time, then the question of ease of life on board begins to be an important factor: i.e., if you have two days of driving rain and it's blowing like stink, the M15 cabin will take care of one person; but two people, and there is no place to move, other than lie down. As others have said, the M17 gives you sitting head room, and more interior volume: volume goes up by the cube of the dimensions, so another 2 feet of length increase interior volume enormously: but, then you need the larger tow vehicle, etc. For single handed day sailing; one or two nights on board; with basic meals, the M15 does a great job. My tow vehicle is a 1.8T VW GTI (my previous tow vehicle was a VR6 powered VW GTI) - no problems on highway; launching, or retrieving. The M17, being larger and heavier, will require a more substantial tow vehicle. Does that help clarify the decision? Connie ________________________________________________________________ GET INTERNET ACCESS FROM JUNO! Juno offers FREE or PREMIUM Internet access for less! Join Juno today! For your FREE software, visit: http://dl.www.juno.com/get/tagj. ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: Harvey Wilson Subject: Re: M_Boats: Marina Charge Date: 28 Jan 2001 19:42:09 -0500 Hi Joe... That's about what I pay for my slip on Lake Lanier, Ga. = I could get one 20% cheaper if I wanted to be on the slips next to the op= en lake, but mine's deep inside a cove that's protected from the powerboat wakes. Also a bit easier for the Admirable..she's got bad knee problems.= Makes it nice to have it all rigged up...I've had a few days this month where I can get in a few hours in the afternoon when it's in the mid 50's= . Harvey/Ga M-17 Stargazer #294 ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: "Roberta & Mark Dvorscak" Subject: M_Boats: West Coast Chat Date: 28 Jan 2001 17:13:20 -0800 This is a multi-part message in MIME format. ------=_NextPart_000_008A_01C0894D.9CFA2460 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Attention all with interest in Puget Sound Rendezvous! First live virtual meeting to discuss dates, etc. is scheduled for = tomorrow Jan.29 at 19:30=20 (7:30 PM PST) in the Montgomery chat room (accessible through the MSOG = website). http://msog.brinet.net/msogchat/default.asp Show up and see what = develops. It could be fun. Mark Dvorscak M17 #400 GRACE ------=_NextPart_000_008A_01C0894D.9CFA2460 Content-Type: text/html; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable
Attention all with interest in Puget Sound=20 Rendezvous!
 
First live virtual meeting to discuss dates, etc. is = scheduled=20 for tomorrow Jan.29 at 19:30
(7:30 PM PST) in the Montgomery chat room = (accessible through=20 the MSOG website).
http://msog.brinet.n= et/msogchat/default.asp  =20 Show up and see what develops. It could be fun.
 
Mark Dvorscak
M17 #400
GRACE
------=_NextPart_000_008A_01C0894D.9CFA2460-- ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: rc2222@postoffice.pacbell.net Subject: M_Boats: Jerry Montgomery's gem! Date: 28 Jan 2001 17:30:40 -0800 The M15 mast doesn't have shroud spreaders. No lines to tangle. No spreaders to snap. At only 750 pounds, it's amazingly easy to retrieve from the launch ramp- even when the wind is up and there's a chop at the ramp. You can launch it in a puddle. It takes little effort to push, pull or turn the 15 on the trailer. It's easy to store in hard to get to places (I move the boat on trailer around three large redwood trees to get it to its proper resting place at home). The 2 hp Honda only weighs 28 pounds. It's easy to hand carry long distances. I like to interchange it between our 8' raft and the 15. Because the 15 is a fractional rig, you can reef the main and you still don't have too much jib to mainsail ratio at work. You continue to sail well balanced. . You can beach the 15 without a hassle. If you run aground, just jump off and push it back into deeper water. The 15 works well if you don't like staying on boat for long periods of time. I like to get off and explore and I always take my bike with me for alternative things to do. If you think it's too small to sleep in, camp or stay in a motel. The 15 is lively. It keeps you alert, and yet is extremely safe. It's always fun, fun, fun. The goal is to get the smallest boat you can enjoy without having to be a slave to it. I'm most grateful to Mr. Montgomery for spending the time and effort to design and build such a terrific little sailboat. Rich Cottrell M15 "Really" Menlo Park, Ca ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: sparsons@canby.com (Steve Parsons) Subject: Re: M_Boats: West Coast Chat Date: 28 Jan 2001 17:42:09 -0800 Mark, Great idea! Thanks for sponsoring it. I will try to get home from work on time.... Steve >Attention all with interest in Puget Sound Rendezvous! > >First live virtual meeting to discuss dates, etc. is scheduled for tomorrow Jan.29 at 19:30 >(7:30 PM PST) in the Montgomery chat room (accessible through the MSOG website). >http://msog.brinet.net/msogchat/default.asp Show up and see what develops. It could be fun. > >Mark Dvorscak >M17 #400 >GRACE > > > > > > > >
Attention all with interest in Puget Sound >Rendezvous!
>
 
>
First live virtual meeting to discuss dates, etc. is scheduled >for tomorrow Jan.29 at 19:30
>
(7:30 PM PST) in the Montgomery chat room (accessible through >the MSOG website).
> >
 
>
Mark Dvorscak
>
M17 #400
>
GRACE
> ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: Doug Kelch Subject: Re: M_Boats: Jerry Montgomery's gem! Date: 28 Jan 2001 20:40:10 -0500 Well said Rich. I have never heard the spirit of the M15 described better!!! Doug Kelch "Seas the Day" M15 #310 rc2222@pacbell.net wrote: > The M15 mast doesn't have shroud spreaders. No lines to tangle. > No spreaders to snap. > > At only 750 pounds, it's amazingly easy to retrieve from the launch > ramp- even when the wind is up and there's a chop at the ramp. > You can launch it in a puddle. > > It takes little effort to push, pull or turn the 15 on the trailer. > It's easy to > store in hard to get to places (I move the boat on trailer around three > large > redwood trees to get it to its proper resting place at home). > > The 2 hp Honda only weighs 28 pounds. It's easy to hand carry long > distances. > I like to interchange it between our 8' raft and the 15. > > Because the 15 is a fractional rig, you can reef the main and you still > don't have too much jib to mainsail ratio at work. You continue to sail > > well balanced. > . > You can beach the 15 without a hassle. If you run aground, just jump off > > and push it back into deeper water. > > The 15 works well if you don't like staying on boat for long periods > of time. I like > to get off and explore and I always take my bike with me for > alternative things to > do. If you think it's too small to sleep in, camp or stay in a motel. > > The 15 is lively. It keeps you alert, and yet is extremely safe. It's > always fun, fun, fun. > > The goal is to get the smallest boat you can enjoy without having to be > a slave to it. > > I'm most grateful to Mr. Montgomery for spending the time and effort > to design and build > such a terrific little sailboat. > > Rich Cottrell > M15 "Really" > Menlo Park, Ca ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: sparsons@canby.com (Steve Parsons) Subject: Re: M_Boats: Left Coast - Launch/Customs Date: 28 Jan 2001 17:52:31 -0800 Dick, Thank you. Is Canadian customs at Bedwell Harbour, or Port Browning? Steve >I am sure that there is a ramp at Van Isle (North Sidney) but of course you >will have to pay the ferry roundtrip for your rig from Annacortes to Sidney >and miss a nice sail past Guemes Is. and the North San Juans to South Pender >and the Canadian customs. There is good storage at Skyline (part of >Annacortes). >Dick > > >Steve Parsons wrote: > >> Peter, Dick: >> >> Do either of you know if there are any convenient launches in the Twassen >> (spelling?) area? By launching in BC, we could avoid having to find a >> customs office in the islands. Safe storage for rig and trailer would be >> another important consideration... >> >> Steve > > > > ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: Gerald Donaldson Subject: Re: M_Boats: Montgomery 15 or 17 For Single-Handed Launching/Retrieval? Date: 28 Jan 2001 21:22:56 -0500 Yes, it does, especially after going out to see Doug Kelcher's M-15 in Reston, VA, today and watching the 2-hour Rendezvous video of the Potomac outing. Suddenly it is all clear to me. Where before there was nothing but ambiguity, ambivalence, fog, and indecision, now startling clarity has hove into view! I now know what to do and so the action plan begins. Jerry Donaldson Conbert H Benneck wrote: > Jerry, > > Let me try and assist you in your decision process: M15 or M17? > > I currently own an M15 and find it absolutely a delightful vessel. > Previously, I had a 29 footer, a 38 footer, a Bolger MICRO, a ComPac 16, > just so you know where I'm coming from. > > I think you have to come to a decision as to how many nights you intend > to spend on board. One or two nights at a time, and you just have to > accept the limitations of an M15. If you want to go off for a week at a > time, then the question of ease of life on board begins to be an > important factor: i.e., if you have two days of driving rain and it's > blowing like stink, the M15 cabin will take care of one person; but two > people, and there is no place to move, other than lie down. > > As others have said, the M17 gives you sitting head room, and more > interior volume: volume goes up by the cube of the dimensions, so > another 2 feet of length increase interior volume enormously: but, then > you need the larger tow vehicle, etc. > > For single handed day sailing; one or two nights on board; with basic > meals, the M15 does a great job. My tow vehicle is a 1.8T VW GTI (my > previous tow vehicle was a VR6 powered VW GTI) - no problems on highway; > launching, or retrieving. > > The M17, being larger and heavier, will require a more substantial tow > vehicle. > > Does that help clarify the decision? > > Connie > > > ________________________________________________________________ > GET INTERNET ACCESS FROM JUNO! > Juno offers FREE or PREMIUM Internet access for less! > Join Juno today! For your FREE software, visit: > http://dl.www.juno.com/get/tagj. ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: Gerald Donaldson Subject: Re: M_Boats: Jerry Montgomery's gem! Date: 28 Jan 2001 21:28:00 -0500 --------------F658588D651D596572F3E4D9 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Thanks, Rich. Well, one thing certainly is clear about Montgomerys (Montgomeries?) -- unbridled enthusiasm. This isn't necessarily the case with some other owner groups. I won't mention any names, but one big group has nothing but complaints about sailing abilities, lack of factory support, poor structural integrity, unsized tackle, ad nauseam. Great to have nothing but upbeat views -- says a lot about the boats (and about the owner!). Jerry Donaldson P.S. Told Doug Kelcher that my wife and I will be joining all of you in the Choptank this year. We know the Choptank like the backs of our hands (somehow, the simile doesn't work in the plural!) and, even if we don't yet have a Montgomery, we'll be there in our Com-pac 27. Jerry Donaldson rc2222@postoffice.pacbell.net wrote: > The M15 mast doesn't have shroud spreaders. No lines to tangle. > No spreaders to snap. > > At only 750 pounds, it's amazingly easy to retrieve from the launch > ramp- even when the wind is up and there's a chop at the ramp. > You can launch it in a puddle. > > It takes little effort to push, pull or turn the 15 on the trailer. > It's easy to > store in hard to get to places (I move the boat on trailer around three > large > redwood trees to get it to its proper resting place at home). > > The 2 hp Honda only weighs 28 pounds. It's easy to hand carry long > distances. > I like to interchange it between our 8' raft and the 15. > > Because the 15 is a fractional rig, you can reef the main and you still > don't have too much jib to mainsail ratio at work. You continue to sail > > well balanced. > . > You can beach the 15 without a hassle. If you run aground, just jump off > > and push it back into deeper water. > > The 15 works well if you don't like staying on boat for long periods > of time. I like > to get off and explore and I always take my bike with me for > alternative things to > do. If you think it's too small to sleep in, camp or stay in a motel. > > The 15 is lively. It keeps you alert, and yet is extremely safe. It's > always fun, fun, fun. > > The goal is to get the smallest boat you can enjoy without having to be > a slave to it. > > I'm most grateful to Mr. Montgomery for spending the time and effort > to design and build > such a terrific little sailboat. > > Rich Cottrell > M15 "Really" > Menlo Park, Ca --------------F658588D651D596572F3E4D9 Content-Type: text/html; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Thanks, Rich.  Well, one thing certainly is clear about Montgomerys (Montgomeries?) -- unbridled enthusiasm.  This isn't necessarily the case with some other owner groups.  I won't mention any names, but one big group has nothing but complaints about sailing abilities, lack of factory support, poor structural integrity, unsized tackle, ad nauseam.  Great to have nothing but upbeat views -- says a lot about the boats (and about the owner!).
Jerry Donaldson
P.S.  Told Doug Kelcher that my wife and I will be joining all of you in the Choptank this year.  We know the Choptank like the backs of our hands (somehow, the simile doesn't work in the plural!) and, even if we don't yet have a Montgomery, we'll be there in our Com-pac 27.
Jerry Donaldson

rc2222@postoffice.pacbell.net wrote:

The M15 mast doesn't  have shroud spreaders. No lines to tangle.
No spreaders to snap.

At only 750 pounds, it's amazingly easy to retrieve from the launch
ramp- even when the wind is up and there's a chop at the ramp.
You can launch it in a puddle.

It takes little effort to  push,  pull or turn the 15 on the trailer.
It's easy to
store in hard to get to places (I move the boat on trailer around three
large
redwood trees to get it to its proper resting place at home).

The 2 hp Honda only weighs 28 pounds.  It's easy to hand carry  long
distances.
I like to interchange it between our 8' raft and the 15.

Because the 15 is a fractional rig, you can reef the main and you still
don't have too much jib  to mainsail ratio at work. You continue to sail

well  balanced.
.
You can beach the 15 without a hassle. If you run aground, just jump off

and push it back into deeper water.

The 15 works well if  you don't like  staying  on  boat for long periods
of time.  I like
to get off and explore and   I always take my bike with me for
alternative things to
do.  If you think it's too small to sleep in, camp or stay in  a motel.

The 15 is lively.  It keeps you alert, and yet is extremely safe. It's
always fun, fun, fun.

The goal is to get the smallest boat  you can enjoy without having to be
a slave to it.

I'm most grateful to Mr. Montgomery for spending  the time and effort
to design and build
such a terrific little sailboat.

Rich Cottrell
M15  "Really"
Menlo Park, Ca

--------------F658588D651D596572F3E4D9-- ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: Bob Olson Subject: Re: M_Boats: Montgomery 15 or 17 For Single-Handed Launching/Retrieval? Date: 28 Jan 2001 18:32:01 -0800 I think its more like a cutural disease than a genetic trait. Think it's called afluenza or cosumaholism or something. Bob >Bob, > >Are we related? My garage and shop are both like this:-) > >Steve > > >>Living proof. The M-15 sleeping through the winter in its natural habitat >>-- a normal sized garage with plenty of petroleum-based nesting materials. >> >>This photo is not a fake! >>http://home.earthlink.net/~bobo4u/piccolo_garage.JPG >> >>Bob Olson >>M-15 #296 "Piccolo" >>Kent, WA >> >> >> > > > ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: Peter Jacobs Subject: Re: M_Boats: Left Coast - Launch/Customs Date: 28 Jan 2001 19:55:20 -0800 Richard Lane wrote: > > I am sure that there is a ramp at Van Isle (North Sidney) but of course you > will have to pay the ferry roundtrip for your rig from Annacortes to Sidney > and miss a nice sail past Guemes Is. and the North San Juans to South Pender > and the Canadian customs. There is good storage at Skyline (part of > Annacortes). > Dick > I've used that ramp even at the lowest tides.. it's nice and steep and there is parking for up to several days in the lot across the street. Had to leave my rudder off until I got to deeper water, though. What a strange feeling trying to use the outboard only for steering ... pretty scary when you're in amongst other boats! I don't know about Tsawwssen for ramps. I know there is a beach area by the Vancouver/Sidney ferry terminal that is always full of campers and boats. I'll try to find out about "mainland" ramps and parking in Canada. You'd still have to cross the Strait of Georgia ... about the same distance as Juan de Fuca. I'll check out where the Canada Customs offices for small craft are located, too. It almost seems half the trip would be spent getting across to the Gulf Islands :( Maybe a US destination would work better for most people. I look forward to the "chat" tomorrow at 7:30. -Peter- -- ======================== Peter Jacobs Victoria BC Canada http://www.islandnet.com/~pjacobs/homepage.htm ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: LBarkhuff@cs.com Subject: Re: M_Boats: 17 mast raise Date: 28 Jan 2001 23:22:03 EST No I am referring to rowing with one oar, on a Mont 23.....LB ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: leyake@juno.com Subject: Re: M_Boats: West Coast Chat Date: 28 Jan 2001 21:07:41 -0800 Mark and NW boaters, I will be out of town tomorrow night and unable to participate in the chat, but am very interested in the outcome. As far as scheduling, my summer is open except for the second week of Aug.. Puget Sound or anywhere in the NW would be fine with me. On a separate matter, somewhat related, I will be in Portland the next couple of days. Anyplace there that a sailor just has to check out while he's in town? Larry Yake M17 #200 Rapture ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: mikit Subject: Re: M_Boats: West Coast Chat Date: 28 Jan 2001 22:35:10 -0800 > On a separate matter, somewhat >related, I will be in Portland the next couple of days. Anyplace there >that a sailor just has to check out while he's in town? > >Larry Yake >M17 #200 >Rapture West Marine in North Portland or Boat World at Jantzen Beach on Hayden Island. Good places to spend money stocking up on those winter project supplies. The marina on Hayden is full of large, expensive,neglected, deteriorating boats that don't appear to be used much. Truisms relating to the M15/M17 Discussion recently on the virtues of each. 1. The Montgomery boats, either model, do what they do better than any other boat we have considered. 2. Regardless of the model, the owners of each believe, for their purpose, they have made the right choice. 3. Regardless of the model owned, each owner respects the virtues of the other model. 4. What makes the M-17 better is winches. Mike M-17#369 ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: mikit Subject: Re: M_Boats: Left/Best Coast Date: 28 Jan 2001 23:29:54 -0800 >Peter wrote- >It would be great to arrange a rendevous somewhere so we could come from >our departure points of choice. and continue the cruise from there. >I'm open to any date. > Peter, Maybe it would be best to give you a couple years to gain local knowledge of the Gulf Islands before we impose in force. Expanding on your above comment, a suggestion. At a pre-determined date window you depart from Sidney, a group departs from Annacortes, Dick leads a group from Port Townsand and the suicide squad, I mean the adventurous leave from Port Angeles. The rendezvous could be somewhere around west sound on Orcas island. A few days could be spent exploring some of the marine parks and generally messing around. The party animals could check out Friday Harbor on San Juan Island if desired. (wouldn't be my 1st choice however) Hopefully someone would be familiar with the area that could offer suggestions or guidance especially in the area of anchorages, tides and currents. After a few days all head back to their respective launch sites. Unfortunately at this time I am not sure of my summer schedule, however if something like this is organized, I would make an effort to attend. Mike M17-369 ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: Doug King Subject: M_Boats: New Stuff and PAC NW charts up Date: 29 Jan 2001 06:15:02 -0500 --=====================_5408724==_.ALT Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Mike Leonard asked to have charts put up for a few of the locations in NW Washington being discussed by the group for possible summer cruises. Normally I would have let Mike announce it, but thought it might be helpful for people to see them prior to the Chat Line discussion tomorrow night. Hope you don't mind, Mike. Anybody know how to capture text from the Chat Room discussion? I don't. You may want to consider sending the text to me or email it out to the compadres who can't be there tomorrow night. Hope you don't mind if I lurk tomorrow night, I'd like to see how well it works. (A worker-lurker?) A BUNCH of new stuff on the MSOG. An actual marine survey, the PNW charts, and a breakdown of the M-15 vs M-17 discussion. That sucker was a BEAR to do, let me know if there are any spelling errors, my eyes are now permanently crossed. Did I mention that the "Contributors" item at the bottom of the side menu has a list of needed info? Please give 'til it hurts. Still have some more pictures from Doug Kelch to put up, everybody else send me what you got cuz right now I'M SMOKIN' BABY! Thanks, The other DK from VA Doug King M-17 #404 "Vixen" MSOG Web site: http://msog.brinet.net Email: mailto:msog@brinet.net --=====================_5408724==_.ALT Content-Type: text/html; charset="us-ascii"
Mike Leonard asked to have charts put up for a few of the locations in NW Washington being discussed by the group for possible summer cruises. Normally I would have let Mike announce it, but thought it might be helpful for people to see them prior to the Chat Line discussion tomorrow night. Hope you don't mind, Mike.

Anybody know how to capture text from the Chat Room discussion? I don't. You may want to consider sending the text to me or email it out to the compadres who can't be there tomorrow night. Hope you don't mind if I lurk tomorrow night, I'd like to see how well it works. (A worker-lurker?)

A BUNCH of new stuff on the MSOG. An actual marine survey, the PNW charts, and a breakdown of the M-15 vs M-17 discussion. That sucker was a BEAR to do, let me know if there are any spelling errors, my eyes are now permanently crossed.

Did I mention that the "Contributors" item at the bottom of the side menu has a list of needed info? Please give 'til it hurts.

Still have some more pictures from Doug Kelch to put up, everybody else send me what you got cuz right now I'M SMOKIN' BABY!

Thanks,

The other DK from VA





------------------------------------------
Doug King
M-17 #404 "Vixen"

MSOG Web site: http://msog.brinet.net
Email: mailto:msog@brinet.net --=====================_5408724==_.ALT-- ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: "David and Nancy Phippeny" Subject: M_Boats: Leaks Date: 29 Jan 2001 06:22:15 -0600 This is a multi-part message in MIME format. ------=_NextPart_000_003F_01C089BB.D2F16920 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Howard, A couple months ago you were working on deck/hull leaks on older boat. = As I have same problem I'm wondering how you are doing with taking care = of them. Dave M17 #49 ------=_NextPart_000_003F_01C089BB.D2F16920 Content-Type: text/html; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable
Howard,
 
A couple months ago you were working on = deck/hull=20 leaks on older boat.  As I have same problem I'm wondering how you = are=20 doing with taking care of them.
 
Dave
M17 #49
------=_NextPart_000_003F_01C089BB.D2F16920-- ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: Howard A Subject: Re: M_Boats: Leaks Date: 29 Jan 2001 07:25:12 -0600 So far, I've not done anything. She is all tarped down, sitting on the storage lot, riding out a long, cold winter. I guess when we start talking hull/deck leaks, the source of water comes from two places..rain or spray, and heeling to the point where you bury the rail. The leaks I'm working on are from rain. I figure if I have the rail under, I've screwed up! A third source might be beating or motoring into heavy waves that could reach the joint, but I've never been there. The water can only get by the joint in two places, at the joint itself, and through the bolt holes. My plan is to take off the aluminum toe rail, inspect the caulking in the joint, and if possible, work some Boatlife caulk in there, then bed the toe rail in Boatlife to keep water from ever reaching the joint and bolt holes, and then bolt it back on. Unless I find it real easy to pry the hull and deck apart along the seam, that is likely beyond my ability, and I doubt I will try that. In addition to the hull and deck, there is a liner sandwhiched in there somewhere to about midships, and I don't see any clean separation joint at the stern. I might also try to recaulk the inside seam, but from what I have seen, that doesn't work by itself. You need to stop the water from the outside. Once I'm into it, I'll report what I find. If you want to go first, let the rest of us know what worked (or didn't) for you. Howard David and Nancy Phippeny wrote: > Howard, A couple months ago you were working on deck/hull leaks on > older boat. As I have same problem I'm wondering how you are doing > with taking care of them. DaveM17 #49 ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: Jerry Donaldson Subject: Re: M_Boats: Montgomery 15 or 17 For single-handed Launching/Retrieval? Date: 29 Jan 2001 09:48:12 -0800 Bill, this is an Achilles heel of the 17 that Doug Kelch warned me about when I went to see his 15 Sunday (1/27/01) afternoon: the runner of the M-17 is 3 inches longer than the boat's draft with board up. In the Chesapeake, unlike the West Coast, shallow water sailing is all there is. This is a real design weakness and I can't figure why Jerry and Bob build the 15 with a kick-up rudder, but none of the 17. I wish they could do a kick-up rudder for the 17 -- this would be an extremely valuable design alteration for safety. Jerry Donaldson Bill Riker wrote: > Jerry, > > I love my M15 for all the reasons you mentioned, but I'm a singlehander. > The only boat my wife might consider for overnighting would need to have > "Carnival" on the stern. IMHO, cruising in the M15 just wouldn't be > comfortable for two people. You would end up going it alone, or using the > boat less and less often. > > So I would go with the 17, a boat built for two. Some of our guys have easy > methods for raising the M17 mast, and some just manhandle it up alone. Just > get a depth meter and watch your rudder in the shallows. And a tow vehicle, > of course. > > Bill Riker > M-15 #184 > Storm Petrel > > -----Original Message----- > From: owner-montgomery_boats@lists.xmission.com > [mailto:owner-montgomery_boats@lists.xmission.com]On Behalf Of Gerald > Donaldson > Sent: January 27, 2001 4:12 AM > To: montgomery_boats@lists.xmission.com > Subject: M_Boats: Montgomery 15 or 17 For Single-Handed > Launching/Retrieval? > > Well, here I was ready to spring for a new M-15 with Bob Eeg at Nor'sea > (who has been generous and gentlemanly trying to accommodate my > anxieties and my imponderables about trailering) when my wife at dinner > tonight asks, "What did you decide about getting another, smaller > overnighter." I replied that I still was unsure about either of our V-6 > mid-sized sedans being able to haul 2,500 lbs.of boat, gear, and > trailer, so I was leaning towards having Bob do a M-15 rather than a > M-17. I asked Bob if he could do certain custom work on the 15' and he > readily agreed. > Also, I pointed out that the 15' on the hoof with gear would be in > the vicinity of 1,200 lbs. and that I had little doubt about the ability > of either car to pull that. Furthermore, a couple of M-boat subscribers > to Ken Diehl mailing list pointed out that, all things considered, one > ends up sailing the 15' more often than the 17'. I took this as an > indicator that the 17' is more difficult for single-handers to rig, > launch, and retrieve than the 15' which is less than half its weight. > Moreover, I started worrying about shallow launch ramps. The > operative word for water in the Chesapeake and its tribs is "Shallow"! > The M-17 draws 21" board up, and the M-15 only 14". For many ramps > designed to float mainly small fishing power boats, this could be a > dispositive difference on whether you can get into the water where you > would like to launch, or not. > However, it is pretty clear that, whereas the 17' could be acceptable > for two for an overnight sail, the 15' is just not commodious enough for > a real lady in her late 50s -- my wife! > So, as has been usual in 32 years of marriage, my wife again proves > herself to be a good sport with a positive attitude and says in response > to these and other dithering remarks I make, "Well, if the 17' is too > heavy for our cars, you could just get an old bigger car or pickup or > van at a cheap price to pull it with. We could go for a vacation in New > England and elsewhere with it and have a great time sailing in Maine, > for example." So, once more my wife disarms me with the upbeat attitude > despite the fact that we already have a Com-pac 27 which I have turned > into a floating palace and a 10' Boatex tender with motor. > So, comrades, what to do: Is the 17' hard to rig, launch, and > retrieve for one person pushing 60 but still able to punch holes through > 1/2" plaster board while laughing at the effort?! How about the mast > raising/lowering? I just don't have any experience with trailer > sailers. Would I be more prudent and get to sail more -- and more > easily -- if I started with the M-15, or am I being a fraidy cat? Also, > of course, although eithe boat will be used overwhelmingly by me as a > single-hander, I don't want to disfranchise my wife with the smaller > M-15. > Any advice would be appreciated! Bob Eeg has a M-17 ready for > delivery with all the options I would want and he can do the same > options on the M-15. What would you do if you were me? Cost is not the > problem. > Jerry Donaldson ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: "Peter Jacobs" Subject: Re: M_Boats: Left/Best Coast Date: 29 Jan 2001 08:10:34 -0800 This is a multi-part message in MIME format. ------=_NextPart_000_0010_01C089CA.F49553C0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable I like it ... the best suggestion so far :) -Peter- =3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D= Peter Jacobs Senior Engineering Aide Township of Esquimalt Victoria BC Canada ----- Original Message -----=20 From: mikit=20 To: montgomery_boats@lists.xmission.com=20 Sent: Sunday, January 28, 2001 11:29 PM Subject: Re: M_Boats: Left/Best Coast >Peter wrote- >It would be great to arrange a rendevous somewhere so we could come = from >our departure points of choice. and continue the cruise from there. >I'm open to any date. > Peter, Maybe it would be best to give you a couple years to gain local=20 knowledge of the Gulf Islands before we impose in force. Expanding on=20 your above comment, a suggestion. At a pre-determined date window you=20 depart from Sidney, a group departs from Annacortes, Dick leads a=20 group from Port Townsand and the suicide squad, I mean the=20 adventurous leave from Port Angeles. The rendezvous could be=20 somewhere around west sound on Orcas island. A few days could be=20 spent exploring some of the marine parks and generally messing=20 around. The party animals could check out Friday Harbor on San Juan=20 Island if desired. (wouldn't be my 1st choice however) Hopefully=20 someone would be familiar with the area that could offer suggestions=20 or guidance especially in the area of anchorages, tides and currents.=20 After a few days all head back to their respective launch sites. Unfortunately at this time I am not sure of my summer schedule,=20 however if something like this is organized, I would make an effort=20 to attend. Mike M17-369 ------=_NextPart_000_0010_01C089CA.F49553C0 Content-Type: text/html; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable
I like it ... the best suggestion so far = :)
 
-Peter-
=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D= =3D=3D
Peter Jacobs
Senior Engineering=20 Aide
Township of Esquimalt
Victoria BC Canada
----- Original Message -----
From:=20 mikit=20
To: montgomery_boats@list= s.xmission.com=20
Sent: Sunday, January 28, 2001 = 11:29=20 PM
Subject: Re: M_Boats: Left/Best = Coast

>Peter wrote-
>It would be great to arrange a=20 rendevous somewhere so we could come from
>our departure points = of=20 choice. and continue the cruise from there.
>I'm open to any=20 date.
>

Peter,
Maybe it would be best to give you a = couple=20 years to gain local
knowledge of the Gulf Islands before we impose = in=20 force. Expanding on
your above comment, a suggestion. At a = pre-determined=20 date window you
depart from Sidney, a group departs from = Annacortes, =20 Dick leads a
group from Port Townsand and the suicide squad, I = mean the=20
adventurous leave from Port Angeles. The rendezvous  could be =
somewhere around west sound on Orcas island.  A few days = could be=20
spent exploring some of the marine parks and generally messing =
around.=20 The party animals could check out Friday Harbor on San Juan
Island = if=20 desired. (wouldn't be my 1st choice however) Hopefully
someone = would =20 be familiar with the area that could offer suggestions
or guidance = especially in the area of anchorages, tides and currents.
After a = few days=20 all head back to their respective launch sites.

Unfortunately = at this=20 time I am not sure of my summer schedule,
however if something = like this=20 is organized, I would make an effort
to=20 attend.
Mike
M17-369


------=_NextPart_000_0010_01C089CA.F49553C0-- ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: Jerry Donaldson Subject: M_Boats: Nor'sea Yachts Date: 29 Jan 2001 13:13:30 -0800 --------------2F190315FC5271A181360F26 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Well, gang, what can I say? Here I was ready to spring for a new Montgomery with all the trimmings when I run across web sites and articles about the alleged [please note italics] dirty laundry of adverse business practices by Nor'sea. I work with litigation all the time and I know that every set of "facts" about adversarial claims is another version of Rashomon -- it is impossible to distinguish reality from the briefs constructed by the contending parties. However, I must say that the web sites alleging sharp business practices by Nor'sea leaves me somewhat gunshy about purchasing a Montgomery from Nor'sea. I have been in the wars too long here in Washington, D.C. to ask for opinions and characterizations from anyone in this mailing list about the legitimacy of the claims lodged against Nor'sea, but it would be nice to hear from any of you who have purchased new M-boats over the past few years and had satisfactory experiences or not. I'm certainly not looking for slander or people getting renewed opportunities to vent. In fact, I'm looking for encouragement to go ahead and consummate an order with Bob Eeg. Hope to get some anecdotes about your purchases from Nor'sea. Jerry Donaldson --------------2F190315FC5271A181360F26 Content-Type: text/html; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit     Well, gang, what can I say?  Here I was ready to spring for a new Montgomery with all the trimmings when I run across web sites and articles about the alleged [please note italics] dirty laundry of adverse business practices by Nor'sea.  I work with litigation all the time and I know that every set of "facts" about adversarial claims is another version of Rashomon -- it is impossible to distinguish reality from the briefs constructed by the contending parties.  However, I must say that the web sites alleging sharp business practices by Nor'sea leaves me somewhat gunshy about purchasing a Montgomery from Nor'sea.  I have been in the wars too long here in Washington, D.C. to ask for opinions and characterizations from anyone in this mailing list about the legitimacy of the claims lodged against Nor'sea, but it would be nice to hear from any of you who have purchased new M-boats over the past few years and had satisfactory experiences or not.  I'm certainly not looking for slander or people getting renewed opportunities to vent.  In fact, I'm looking for encouragement to go ahead and consummate an order with Bob Eeg.
    Hope to get some anecdotes about your purchases from Nor'sea.
Jerry Donaldson --------------2F190315FC5271A181360F26-- ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: rc2222@postoffice.pacbell.net Subject: M_Boats: web site re: Nor'Sea Date: 29 Jan 2001 13:33:47 -0800 Jerry: What web site are you referring to? Rich Cottrell ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: Jerry Donaldson Subject: Re: M_Boats: web site re: Nor'Sea Date: 29 Jan 2001 17:13:23 -0800 http://www.norsea27.com/index.html#main page Jerry Donaldson rc2222@pacbell.net wrote: > Jerry: > > What web site are you referring to? > > Rich Cottrell ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: Tom Smith Subject: RE: M_Boats: Montgomery 15 or 17 Date: 29 Jan 2001 15:56:05 -0800 Well hell, one more opinion can't hurt, right? I was in this same quandary when I bought my boat 1.5 years ago, made worse by the fact that there was both a 15 and 17 for sale 10 miles apart up here in North Idaho--an almost unheard of situation. I chose the M15 for several reasons: 1. Portability -- Light to tow and simple and fast to launch and retrieve. I'm sure the 17 is too, but the 17 is literally twice the boat the 15 is, and comes with the headaches (minor though they are compared to other boats) associated with increased size and weight. 2. Economics -- The bigger the boat, the more expensive everything is. My brand new 2 hp Honda 4 stroke was 630 bucks. The comparable 4 or 5 hp you'll want for the 17 is double that, easy. Not to mention the 17 I looked at was nearly 3 times more initial money than the 15--with half the difference I can completely refit my boat. 3. Handling -- In the sense that I wanted a boat that had sailing characteristics closer to a dingy than a small cruiser. I like the M15's performance. No, I love the M15's performance. It's responsive and predictable and handles big wind and seas (let's clarify that...as big I want to be involved with...) with total confidence. Shorten sail and go. Heave to and relax. 4. Speed -- Chukar had the third best course time at the Cruiser Challenge in Oakland last July. Granted, Jerry M was driving and I was doing my best to slow us down handling the foresail, but only two well equipped 22 footers beat us on time. The M15 is almost unbeatable in it's size catagory, especially in light air. 5. Ease-of-Use -- There is nothing complex about the M15. No winches, no electronics (at least on board Chukar--not even lights), boom-end main sheeting, clam or horn cleats where needed, three point fractional rig. Someone mentioned the kickup rudder--probably the most complex system on the boat but worth its weight in gold from time to time. 6. Cruisability (that's a word, right?) -- The M15 is a backpacker's boat, with all the associated plusses and minuses. If you have experience packing, you'll be thrilled with the storage space and sleeping quarters. Is it comfortable for two? Just, but by hiking standards, still mighty fine. I do not agree with someone who said the 17 is more suited to cruising and the 15 is for day sailing (or words to that effect). The M15 is for someone who knows what he or she can do without and goes light. Tom Smith and Jane Van Winkle M15/345 -- Chukar Sandpoint, Idaho -----Original Message----- Sent: Sunday, January 28, 2001 6:23 PM Launching/Retrieval? Yes, it does, especially after going out to see Doug Kelcher's M-15 in Reston, VA, today and watching the 2-hour Rendezvous video of the Potomac outing. Suddenly it is all clear to me. Where before there was nothing but ambiguity, ambivalence, fog, and indecision, now startling clarity has hove into view! I now know what to do and so the action plan begins. Jerry Donaldson Conbert H Benneck wrote: > Jerry, > > Let me try and assist you in your decision process: M15 or M17? > > I currently own an M15 and find it absolutely a delightful vessel. > Previously, I had a 29 footer, a 38 footer, a Bolger MICRO, a ComPac 16, > just so you know where I'm coming from. > > I think you have to come to a decision as to how many nights you intend > to spend on board. One or two nights at a time, and you just have to > accept the limitations of an M15. If you want to go off for a week at a > time, then the question of ease of life on board begins to be an > important factor: i.e., if you have two days of driving rain and it's > blowing like stink, the M15 cabin will take care of one person; but two > people, and there is no place to move, other than lie down. > > As others have said, the M17 gives you sitting head room, and more > interior volume: volume goes up by the cube of the dimensions, so > another 2 feet of length increase interior volume enormously: but, then > you need the larger tow vehicle, etc. > > For single handed day sailing; one or two nights on board; with basic > meals, the M15 does a great job. My tow vehicle is a 1.8T VW GTI (my > previous tow vehicle was a VR6 powered VW GTI) - no problems on highway; > launching, or retrieving. > > The M17, being larger and heavier, will require a more substantial tow > vehicle. > > Does that help clarify the decision? > > Connie > > > ________________________________________________________________ > GET INTERNET ACCESS FROM JUNO! > Juno offers FREE or PREMIUM Internet access for less! > Join Juno today! For your FREE software, visit: > http://dl.www.juno.com/get/tagj. ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: Richard Lane Subject: Re: M_Boats: Left Coast - Launch/Customs Date: 29 Jan 2001 16:32:35 -0800 Bedwell harbour, however with a Potter 19 or M15 you can go under the bridge thru the canal between North and South Pender Is. Dick Steve Parsons wrote: > Dick, > > Thank you. Is Canadian customs at Bedwell Harbour, or Port Browning? ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: LBarkhuff@cs.com Subject: Re: M_Boats: track record Date: 29 Jan 2001 19:37:12 EST OK, here is my two cents worth. I have never made a purchase from Bob, ie, my boats were bought from Jerry, or used, but I am in the same pair of fowl weather boots as Bob. I own and operate a small business that is not small, nor is it large. For those of you who have not done so, trust me, I could have 25 hours a day, 8 days a week, and not get everything done I need to do, right away. Sometimes, you lose track of things, and what is critical to me, is just another small thing to do for Bob. Just remember, the past is past, and if something happened, then perhaps there was a reason for it. Bob is not a "businessman", because if he were, things could be different. But sometimes, the money just ain't there, no matter what others think........Larry Barkhuff ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: Michael & Lizabeth Towers Subject: M_Boats: Bob Eeg/Norsea credibility Date: 29 Jan 2001 19:04:37 -0600 I bought an M17 mast from Norsea last fall. Bob made sure he had the right measurements for my '76, custom made the mast, mounted the accessories, and shipped it to Minnesota on time and at a very fair price. He chatted with me of the phone several times about the details of my order (at least once while driving a forklift in the warehouse!) without making me feel like I was wasting his time. My experience with Bob Eeg has been completely satisfactory. Michael Towers ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: Gerald Donaldson Subject: Re: M_Boats: Montgomery 15 or 17 Date: 29 Jan 2001 20:36:18 -0500 Good points, all, Tom. All I can say is that, overall, the level of enthusiasm for the M-15 surpasses that for the M-17! Who would have thunk it.... Jerry Donaldson Tom Smith wrote: > Well hell, one more opinion can't hurt, right? > > I was in this same quandary when I bought my boat 1.5 years ago, made worse > by the fact that there was both a 15 and 17 for sale 10 miles apart up here > in North Idaho--an almost unheard of situation. > > I chose the M15 for several reasons: > > 1. Portability -- Light to tow and simple and fast to launch and retrieve. > I'm sure the 17 is too, but the 17 is literally twice the boat the 15 is, > and comes with the headaches (minor though they are compared to other boats) > associated with increased size and weight. > > 2. Economics -- The bigger the boat, the more expensive everything is. My > brand new 2 hp Honda 4 stroke was 630 bucks. The comparable 4 or 5 hp > you'll want for the 17 is double that, easy. Not to mention the 17 I looked > at was nearly 3 times more initial money than the 15--with half the > difference I can completely refit my boat. > > 3. Handling -- In the sense that I wanted a boat that had sailing > characteristics closer to a dingy than a small cruiser. I like the M15's > performance. No, I love the M15's performance. It's responsive and > predictable and handles big wind and seas (let's clarify that...as big I > want to be involved with...) with total confidence. Shorten sail and go. > Heave to and relax. > > 4. Speed -- Chukar had the third best course time at the Cruiser Challenge > in Oakland last July. Granted, Jerry M was driving and I was doing my best > to slow us down handling the foresail, but only two well equipped 22 footers > beat us on time. The M15 is almost unbeatable in it's size catagory, > especially in light air. > > 5. Ease-of-Use -- There is nothing complex about the M15. No winches, no > electronics (at least on board Chukar--not even lights), boom-end main > sheeting, clam or horn cleats where needed, three point fractional rig. > Someone mentioned the kickup rudder--probably the most complex system on the > boat but worth its weight in gold from time to time. > > 6. Cruisability (that's a word, right?) -- The M15 is a backpacker's boat, > with all the associated plusses and minuses. If you have experience > packing, you'll be thrilled with the storage space and sleeping quarters. > Is it comfortable for two? Just, but by hiking standards, still mighty > fine. I do not agree with someone who said the 17 is more suited to > cruising and the 15 is for day sailing (or words to that effect). The M15 > is for someone who knows what he or she can do without and goes light. > > Tom Smith and Jane Van Winkle > M15/345 -- Chukar > Sandpoint, Idaho > > -----Original Message----- > From: Gerald Donaldson [mailto:mdonalds@bellatlantic.net] > Sent: Sunday, January 28, 2001 6:23 PM > To: montgomery_boats@lists.xmission.com > Subject: Re: M_Boats: Montgomery 15 or 17 For Single-Handed > Launching/Retrieval? > > Yes, it does, especially after going out to see Doug Kelcher's M-15 in > Reston, VA, today and watching the 2-hour Rendezvous video of the Potomac > outing. Suddenly it is all clear to me. Where before there was nothing but > ambiguity, ambivalence, fog, and indecision, now startling clarity has hove > into view! I now know what to do and so the action plan begins. > Jerry Donaldson > > Conbert H Benneck wrote: > > > Jerry, > > > > Let me try and assist you in your decision process: M15 or M17? > > > > I currently own an M15 and find it absolutely a delightful vessel. > > Previously, I had a 29 footer, a 38 footer, a Bolger MICRO, a ComPac 16, > > just so you know where I'm coming from. > > > > I think you have to come to a decision as to how many nights you intend > > to spend on board. One or two nights at a time, and you just have to > > accept the limitations of an M15. If you want to go off for a week at a > > time, then the question of ease of life on board begins to be an > > important factor: i.e., if you have two days of driving rain and it's > > blowing like stink, the M15 cabin will take care of one person; but two > > people, and there is no place to move, other than lie down. > > > > As others have said, the M17 gives you sitting head room, and more > > interior volume: volume goes up by the cube of the dimensions, so > > another 2 feet of length increase interior volume enormously: but, then > > you need the larger tow vehicle, etc. > > > > For single handed day sailing; one or two nights on board; with basic > > meals, the M15 does a great job. My tow vehicle is a 1.8T VW GTI (my > > previous tow vehicle was a VR6 powered VW GTI) - no problems on highway; > > launching, or retrieving. > > > > The M17, being larger and heavier, will require a more substantial tow > > vehicle. > > > > Does that help clarify the decision? > > > > Connie > > > > > > ________________________________________________________________ > > GET INTERNET ACCESS FROM JUNO! > > Juno offers FREE or PREMIUM Internet access for less! > > Join Juno today! For your FREE software, visit: > > http://dl.www.juno.com/get/tagj. ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: Conbert H Benneck Subject: Re: M_Boats: West Coast Chat Date: 29 Jan 2001 20:03:15 -0500 Mike, Isn't that a misspelling? You wrote "winches" didn't you mean "wenches"? Connie ________________________________________________________________ GET INTERNET ACCESS FROM JUNO! Juno offers FREE or PREMIUM Internet access for less! Join Juno today! For your FREE software, visit: http://dl.www.juno.com/get/tagj. ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: Conbert H Benneck Subject: Re: M_Boats: Montgomery 15 or 17 Date: 29 Jan 2001 20:36:26 -0500 Dear Jane and Tom, M15 advantages elegantly expressed. The M15 has oodles of useable storage space - sail lockers in the cockpit, plus the storage space in the cabin. I cut out the bin in the starboard sail locker, and made it removable. Now I have a spot for small stuff in the bin; and can lift out the bin and access the space under the bin where I keep my paddle/boat-hook; the swim ladder; and the Bimini top, and other more seldom used odds and ends. It adds a lot of useful storage space, but is also a major project: not something for people without fiberglass repair experience, and who know how to use tools. But the end result, and additional usable storage space gained, is well worth the effort. The 19 inch plastic tool box galley, that was described in MESSING ABOUT IN BOATS, is a great design. Totally self contained: lives alongside the centerboard trunk; and provides everything you need for cooking, and dining for two people. My sole objection is that I can't find space in the box for two real wine glasses..... But such is life when living on an M15! Connie M15 #400 LEPPO ________________________________________________________________ GET INTERNET ACCESS FROM JUNO! Juno offers FREE or PREMIUM Internet access for less! Join Juno today! For your FREE software, visit: http://dl.www.juno.com/get/tagj. ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: Conbert H Benneck Subject: Re: M_Boats: Jerry Montgomery's gem! Date: 29 Jan 2001 20:05:09 -0500 Rich, Your statement, "Your goal is to get the smallest boat you can enjoy without having to be a slave to it" sure hits the nail on the head. Bigger boat means more maintenance work; heavier outboard; bigger towing vehicle (for three or four trips per year?); greater investment; more expense. Divide the cost of the larger boat and car by the number of nights you sleep aboard, and you'll come up with a number that will convince you to stay at a motel rather than have the bigger boat and sleep on board. Real comfort only comes when you get to about the 29 foot length. Then it's standing headroom; a real galley; ice box; working head; and all the comforts of home - heat, lights, music, good berths.... Anything smaller is camping. Then the question is how primitive are you willing to go to spend a week on the water? I find my M15 ideal for my type of operation. The Admirable and I go to Lake Champlain, hole up in a B&B, and go sailing for the day. If the weather is bad, we do something else - visit museums, Tag Sales, the local library, or find the Church roast beef supper. It's a lot more fun than being cooped up on a big boat! Connie ________________________________________________________________ GET INTERNET ACCESS FROM JUNO! Juno offers FREE or PREMIUM Internet access for less! Join Juno today! For your FREE software, visit: http://dl.www.juno.com/get/tagj. ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: Bob Subject: Re: M_Boats: Nor'sea Yachts Date: 29 Jan 2001 17:52:05 -0800 --------------090303060305080908010903 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Jerry You never had any intention of buying a boat from us. We don't even have your phone number. I've never sold a boat to anyone that didn't call me at least ONCE. Incredibly we have never talked. We do have 2 boats in stock and you knew that ! So whats the risk? Afraid you'll have to actually make a decision on what model? You just one of those guys that like to cause trouble. We went broke in 1992. So did everyone in the boat business including Jerry. Its a tough business BUT we had a record year last year delivering 17 boats. All top quality. We won't be selling a boat to you for any price. Your failure to contact any of the owners on the Montgomery sailboat owners group to ask them if they like me or their boat speaks poorly of your thinking skills. There are boats from 1999, 2000 and 2001 on the list. How long would it have taken you to email these people? How long would it have taken you to call us and ask for names and phone numbers of another dozen owners from the last couple of years? You haven't contacted ANYONE on the list in the last several weeks we have be emailing. That tells me you never had an intention of buying one of the two boats we had in stock. Also your failure to even give our boatshop even one phone call indicates your callous disregard for our business and our employees. Including Jerry Montgomery. Maybe a Potter is in your future. Bob Eeg-Jerry Montgomery Nor'Sea Yachts (949) 489-8227 Jerry Donaldson wrote: > Well, gang, what can I say? Here I was ready to spring for a new > Montgomery with all the trimmings when I run across web sites and > articles about the alleged [please note italics] dirty laundry of > adverse business practices by Nor'sea. I work with litigation all the > time and I know that every set of "facts" about adversarial claims is > another version of Rashomon -- it is impossible to distinguish reality > from the briefs constructed by the contending parties. However, I > must say that the web sites alleging sharp business practices by > Nor'sea leaves me somewhat gunshy about purchasing a Montgomery from > Nor'sea. I have been in the wars too long here in Washington, D.C. to > ask for opinions and characterizations from anyone in this mailing > list about the legitimacy of the claims lodged against Nor'sea, but it > would be nice to hear from any of you who have purchased new M-boats > over the past few years and had satisfactory experiences or not. I'm > certainly not looking for slander or people getting renewed > opportunities to vent. In fact, I'm looking for encouragement to go > ahead and consummate an order with Bob Eeg. > Hope to get some anecdotes about your purchases from Nor'sea. > Jerry Donaldson --------------090303060305080908010903 Content-Type: text/html; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Jerry 
You never had any intention of buying a boat from us.
We don't even have your phone number. I've never sold a boat to anyone that
didn't call me at least ONCE.  Incredibly we have never talked.

We do have 2 boats in stock and you knew that !  So whats the risk?
Afraid you'll have to actually make a decision on what model?


You just one of those guys that like to cause trouble.

We went broke in 1992. So did everyone in the boat business including
Jerry. Its a tough business BUT we had a record year last year delivering
17  boats. 
All top quality.

We won't be selling a boat  to you for any price.

Your failure to contact any of the owners on the Montgomery sailboat owners group
to ask them if they like me or their boat speaks poorly of your thinking skills.


There are boats from 1999, 2000 and 2001 on the list. How long would it have
taken you to email these people? How long would it have taken you to call us and
ask for names and phone numbers of another dozen owners from the last couple of  years?

You haven't contacted ANYONE on the list in the last several weeks we have be emailing.  That tells me you never had an  intention of buying one of the two boats we had in stock.

Also your failure to even give our boatshop even one phone call indicates your
callous disregard for our business and our employees. Including Jerry Montgomery.

Maybe a Potter is in your future.

Bob Eeg-Jerry Montgomery
Nor'Sea Yachts (949) 489-8227

Jerry Donaldson wrote:
    Well, gang, what can I say?  Here I was ready to spring for a new Montgomery with all the trimmings when I run across web sites and articles about the alleged [please note italics] dirty laundry of adverse business practices by Nor'sea.  I work with litigation all the time and I know that every set of "facts" about adversarial claims is another version of Rashomon -- it is impossible to distinguish reality from the briefs constructed by the contending parties.  However, I must say that the web sites alleging sharp business practices by Nor'sea leaves me somewhat gunshy about purchasing a Montgomery from Nor'sea.  I have been in the wars too long here in Washington, D.C. to ask for opinions and characterizations from anyone in this mailing list about the legitimacy of the claims lodged against Nor'sea, but it would be nice to hear from any of you who have purchased new M-boats over the past few years and had satisfactory experiences or not.  I'm certainly not looking for slander or people getting renewed opportunities to vent.  In fact, I'm looking for encouragement to go ahead and consummate an order with Bob Eeg.
    Hope to get some anecdotes about your purchases from Nor'sea.
Jerry Donaldson

--------------090303060305080908010903-- ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: Bob Subject: Re: M_Boats: track record Date: 29 Jan 2001 17:55:30 -0800 Possibly the fitting was lost in shipping? You had a hole in the box....? Are you saying that someone cut a hole in the box so one of your 6 fittings would fall out? Didn't you pay Mail Boxes Etc directly for them to box and ups your parts? You should file a claim with them. The insurance of $100 is more than enough. Bob htmills@bright.net wrote: > Ah, yes, Jerry D......the skeletons in the closet. :-) > > My only personal experience with Bob has been mostly > positive, although it could have been a wee bit better. > I ordered a rudder with fittings from him. It took quite > a while to get a quote out of him, but once that was done > he did send the rudder to me as promised. When I received > the package, there was a significant tear in the box and it was > missing one fitting; a rudder "pintle". Possibly the fitting was lost > in shipping; I don't know. Bob has promised to send one; > I haven't received it yet, but I expect Bob will send it as soon > as he can. Patience is a virtue, I hear. :-) Fortunately there is > still snow on the ground here, so for now it's an easy virtue. > > I too had seen the web pages you mentioned and even contacted > some of the people listed on it and others. After hearing their story > and Bob's side too and weighing that with the fact that the delivery > time on a new 17 was at that time longer than I cared to wait, I > concluded that a used boat would meet my needs satisfactorily. I later, > however, decided to purchase a rudder from him (and see how well > he did with a smaller order). I made as much of the transaction "public" > hoping Bob would see it as an opportunity to make me a happy customer > in front of everyone. In other words, in conducting the transaction in > "public" I hoped to safeguard myself while giving Bob an opportunity to > come through with an audience. > > As an interesting side note, My 17 is at a local repair shop, Parker Marine, > to have some through-hull fittings removed and the holes glassed in. The > owner of the business has been promising to get me a quote for several > weeks now and keeps breaking his promises.....It's frustrating and dissappointing. > I know this company does top-notch work (I've seen it), but all the same... > > I would like to one day buy one of the new 23's if I could, and now is a > critical time for Bob to earn the trust of not only myself, but others as well. > Will he do it? I hope so. I would be interested in hearing the experiences > of the recent new-boat buyers as well. Were promises kept? If so, then > all this "publicity" could be to Bob's (and ultimately the classes') great benefit. > > Tod Mills > > > > > ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: Gerald Donaldson Subject: Re: M_Boats: Nor'sea Yachts Date: 29 Jan 2001 20:04:02 -0500 --------------586A58F57FFD8609A3EC158C Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Bob, what you say is simply not true. I have e-mailed everyone that I have been able to contact through the Ken Diehl mailing list. I haven't called you because I have been researching the boats all week (after all, I only contacted you for the first time 8 days ago) and have visited at least one enthusiast on Sunday to see his 15. I'm sorry to see you react like that because I am, in fact, a serious buyer. My wife and I have been discussing the pros and cons of buying the ready-to-go 17 all week vs. the 15. In fact, I was ready to call you to ask if roller furling and a 150% genoa could be installed or whether it would be better for me to wait and do it here in D.C. Also, I was exploring competitive financing from my regular banking sources. I haven't read your second e-mail yet. I hope you will reconsider your attitude because I really admire the boats. Jerry Donaldson P.S. Bad experiences like the ones you had several years ago unfortunately follow behind for quite a while and cast a pall over businesses. I saw the allegations and, honestly, they disturbed me. I have no way of determining whether any of them are true or false. Bob wrote: > Jerry > You never had any intention of buying a boat from us. > We don't even have your phone number. I've never sold a boat to anyone > that > didn't call me at least ONCE. Incredibly we have never talked. > > We do have 2 boats in stock and you knew that ! So whats the risk? > Afraid you'll have to actually make a decision on what model? > > > You just one of those guys that like to cause trouble. > > We went broke in 1992. So did everyone in the boat business including > Jerry. Its a tough business BUT we had a record year last year > delivering > 17 boats. > All top quality. > > We won't be selling a boat to you for any price. > > Your failure to contact any of the owners on the Montgomery sailboat > owners group > to ask them if they like me or their boat speaks poorly of your > thinking skills. > > > There are boats from 1999, 2000 and 2001 on the list. How long would > it have > taken you to email these people? How long would it have taken you to > call us and > ask for names and phone numbers of another dozen owners from the last > couple of years? > > You haven't contacted ANYONE on the list in the last several weeks we > have be emailing. That tells me you never had an intention of buying > one of the two boats we had in stock. > > Also your failure to even give our boatshop even one phone call > indicates your > callous disregard for our business and our employees. Including Jerry > Montgomery. > > Maybe a Potter is in your future. > > Bob Eeg-Jerry Montgomery > Nor'Sea Yachts (949) 489-8227 > > Jerry Donaldson wrote: > >> Well, gang, what can I say? Here I was ready to spring for a >> new Montgomery with all the trimmings when I run across web sites >> and articles about the alleged [please note italics] dirty laundry >> of adverse business practices by Nor'sea. I work with litigation >> all the time and I know that every set of "facts" about adversarial >> claims is another version of Rashomon -- it is impossible to >> distinguish reality from the briefs constructed by the contending >> parties. However, I must say that the web sites alleging sharp >> business practices by Nor'sea leaves me somewhat gunshy about >> purchasing a Montgomery from Nor'sea. I have been in the wars too >> long here in Washington, D.C. to ask for opinions and >> characterizations from anyone in this mailing list about the >> legitimacy of the claims lodged against Nor'sea, but it would be >> nice to hear from any of you who have purchased new M-boats over the >> past few years and had satisfactory experiences or not. I'm >> certainly not looking for slander or people getting renewed >> opportunities to vent. In fact, I'm looking for encouragement to go >> ahead and consummate an order with Bob Eeg. >> Hope to get some anecdotes about your purchases from Nor'sea. >> Jerry Donaldson > --------------586A58F57FFD8609A3EC158C Content-Type: text/html; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit  
Bob, what you say is simply not true.  I have e-mailed everyone that I have been able to contact through the Ken Diehl mailing list.  I haven't called you because I have been researching the boats all week (after all, I only contacted you for the first time 8 days ago) and have visited at least one enthusiast on Sunday to see his 15.  I'm sorry to see you react like that because I am, in fact, a serious buyer.  My wife and I have been discussing the pros and cons of buying the ready-to-go 17 all week vs. the 15.  In fact, I was ready to call you to ask if roller furling and a 150% genoa could be installed or whether it would be better for me to wait and do it here in D.C.  Also, I was exploring competitive financing from my regular banking sources.
I haven't read your second e-mail yet.  I hope you will reconsider your attitude because I really admire the boats.
Jerry Donaldson
P.S.  Bad experiences like the ones you had several years ago unfortunately follow behind for quite a while and cast a pall over businesses.  I saw the allegations and, honestly, they disturbed me.  I have no way of determining whether any of them are true or false.

Bob wrote:

Jerry
You never had any intention of buying a boat from us.
We don't even have your phone number. I've never sold a boat to anyone that
didn't call me at least ONCE.  Incredibly we have never talked.

We do have 2 boats in stock and you knew that !  So whats the risk?
Afraid you'll have to actually make a decision on what model?
 

You just one of those guys that like to cause trouble.

We went broke in 1992. So did everyone in the boat business including
Jerry. Its a tough business BUT we had a record year last year delivering
17  boats.
All top quality.

We won't be selling a boat  to you for any price.

Your failure to contact any of the owners on the Montgomery sailboat owners group
to ask them if they like me or their boat speaks poorly of your thinking skills.
 

There are boats from 1999, 2000 and 2001 on the list. How long would it have
taken you to email these people? How long would it have taken you to call us and
ask for names and phone numbers of another dozen owners from the last couple of  years?

You haven't contacted ANYONE on the list in the last several weeks we have be emailing.  That tells me you never had an  intention of buying one of the two boats we had in stock.

Also your failure to even give our boatshop even one phone call indicates your
callous disregard for our business and our employees. Including Jerry Montgomery.

Maybe a Potter is in your future.

Bob Eeg-Jerry Montgomery
Nor'Sea Yachts (949) 489-8227

Jerry Donaldson wrote:

    Well, gang, what can I say?  Here I was ready to spring for a new Montgomery with all the trimmings when I run across web sites and articles about the alleged [please note italics] dirty laundry of adverse business practices by Nor'sea.  I work with litigation all the time and I know that every set of "facts" about adversarial claims is another version of Rashomon -- it is impossible to distinguish reality from the briefs constructed by the contending parties.  However, I must say that the web sites alleging sharp business practices by Nor'sea leaves me somewhat gunshy about purchasing a Montgomery from Nor'sea.  I have been in the wars too long here in Washington, D.C. to ask for opinions and characterizations from anyone in this mailing list about the legitimacy of the claims lodged against Nor'sea, but it would be nice to hear from any of you who have purchased new M-boats over the past few years and had satisfactory experiences or not.  I'm certainly not looking for slander or people getting renewed opportunities to vent.  In fact, I'm looking for encouragement to go ahead and consummate an order with Bob Eeg.
    Hope to get some anecdotes about your purchases from Nor'sea.
Jerry Donaldson
--------------586A58F57FFD8609A3EC158C-- ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: Tom Smith Subject: M_Boats: An offline discussion? Date: 29 Jan 2001 18:17:17 -0800 Gerald and Bob, you guys have your own email addresses. This seems like a private matter that should be settled, or not, away from the M list. Tom Smith and Jane Van Winkle M15/345 -- Chukar Sandpoint, Idaho -----Original Message----- Sent: None No, Bob......I didn't say that at all. I know for a fact I didn't get the fitting. The most likely (from a purely statistical standpoint) is that either it was never packed or that it fell out in transit. The other two (of the three) were wrapped together. You did offer to send one to me, so I took your word for it. Tod ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: Wcpritchett@aol.com Subject: Re: M_Boats: I Second Tom Smith's "take it to private email" Date: 29 Jan 2001 21:50:41 EST Is it time to chill or what? Bill Pritchett ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: "Bill Riker" Subject: RE: M_Boats: West Coast Chat Date: 29 Jan 2001 22:08:50 -0500 Mike, I like your truisms, except for #4. For me, what makes the 15 better is . . . NO winches needed! :-) Bill Riker M-15 #184 Storm Petrel -----Original Message----- [mailto:owner-montgomery_boats@lists.xmission.com]On Behalf Of mikit Sent: January 29, 2001 1:35 AM Truisms relating to the M15/M17 Discussion recently on the virtues of each. 1. The Montgomery boats, either model, do what they do better than any other boat we have considered. 2. Regardless of the model, the owners of each believe, for their purpose, they have made the right choice. 3. Regardless of the model owned, each owner respects the virtues of the other model. 4. What makes the M-17 better is winches. Mike M-17#369 ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: "Hank Kwant" Subject: Re: M_Boats: I Second Tom Smith's "take it to private email" Date: 29 Jan 2001 20:21:35 -0700 I agree, take it to private email. I'd rather not spend time reading any more postings on "Test Orders" and public posting that suggest wrong doing. If there is a specific current issue, email is probably the best forum. Frankly, I value Bob's participation in this forum too much to risk agitating him over inappropriate postings. Bob obviously reads and posts to this site because he loves the product he is building and has a sincere interest in helping people enjoy their Montgomery boats. Let's show some respect and not thank him with a slap in the face. >From: Wcpritchett@aol.com >Reply-To: montgomery_boats@lists.xmission.com >To: montgomery_boats@lists.xmission.com >Subject: Re: M_Boats: I Second Tom Smith's "take it to private email" >Date: Mon, 29 Jan 2001 21:50:41 EST > >Is it time to chill or what? > >Bill Pritchett > _________________________________________________________________ Get your FREE download of MSN Explorer at http://explorer.msn.com ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: "David and Nancy Phippeny" Subject: M_Boats: Leaks Date: 29 Jan 2001 21:20:47 -0600 This is a multi-part message in MIME format. ------=_NextPart_000_003D_01C08A39.58BE2840 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Howard, Thanks for the reply. Today I tried to get leaks by running water down = the toerail and around the windows. No leaks, but when it rains I get = plenty of water. Tomorrow will set a sprinkler on top and sit inside. = That should be a hoot for passerbys. Dave M49 ------=_NextPart_000_003D_01C08A39.58BE2840 Content-Type: text/html; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable
Howard,
Thanks for the reply.  Today I = tried to get=20 leaks by running water down the toerail and around the windows.  No = leaks,=20 but when it rains I get plenty of water.  Tomorrow will set a = sprinkler on=20 top and sit inside.  That should be a hoot for = passerbys.
 
Dave
M49
------=_NextPart_000_003D_01C08A39.58BE2840-- ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: sparsons@canby.com (Steve Parsons) Subject: Re: M_Boats: I Second Tom Smith's "take it to private email" Date: 29 Jan 2001 19:41:24 -0800 Folks, I think we have two good people, with very good intentions, but this is going south. Please take time to consider what you say publicly. Steve >Is it time to chill or what? > >Bill Pritchett > > > ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: sparsons@canby.com (Steve Parsons) Subject: Re: M_Boats: Leaks Date: 29 Jan 2001 19:47:15 -0800 Dave, If you search the archives, I think you'll find some comments from Mr. M regarding the use of beer to find leaks.... This is a tried and true technique. Steve >Howard, >Thanks for the reply. Today I tried to get leaks by running water down the toerail and around the windows. No leaks, but when it rains I get plenty of water. Tomorrow will set a sprinkler on top and sit inside. That should be a hoot for passerbys. > >Dave >M49 > > > > > > > >
Howard,
>
Thanks for the reply.  Today I tried to get >leaks by running water down the toerail and around the windows.  No leaks, >but when it rains I get plenty of water.  Tomorrow will set a sprinkler on >top and sit inside.  That should be a hoot for passerbys.
>
 
>
Dave
>
M49
> ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: "Joe Kidd" Subject: Re: M_Boats: Leaks Date: 29 Jan 2001 20:26:47 -0800 Just turn on the sprinkler and see where the icicles form. Joe Kidd ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: "Roberta & Mark Dvorscak" Subject: M_Boats: West Coast chat Date: 29 Jan 2001 20:29:39 -0800 This is a multi-part message in MIME format. ------=_NextPart_000_0008_01C08A32.34158F80 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable The first meeting of the PNW chapter of the MSOG just concluded. Two = tentative dates were discussed for our rendezvous the first week of = August and Sept. 8-15. The discussion centered on an Anacortes launch = with a day or two in the San Juan's and then a cruise to the Canadian = Gulf islands. Everything is very tentative at this point. Another chat = room meeting is scheduled for next Monday Feb. 5 at 19:30. See y'all = then. Mark Dvorscak M17 #400 GRACE ------=_NextPart_000_0008_01C08A32.34158F80 Content-Type: text/html; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable
The first meeting of the PNW chapter of the MSOG = just=20 concluded. Two tentative dates were discussed for our rendezvous the = first week=20 of August and Sept. 8-15. The discussion centered on an Anacortes launch = with a=20 day or two in the San Juan's and then a cruise to the Canadian Gulf = islands.=20 Everything is very tentative at this point. Another chat room meeting is = scheduled for next Monday Feb. 5 at 19:30. See y'all then.
Mark Dvorscak
M17 #400
GRACE
------=_NextPart_000_0008_01C08A32.34158F80-- ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: Peter Jacobs Subject: Re: M_Boats: Leaks Date: 29 Jan 2001 20:32:21 -0800 David and Nancy Phippeny wrote: > > Howard, > Thanks for the reply. Today I tried to get leaks by running water > down the toerail and around the windows. No leaks, but when it rains > I get plenty of water. Tomorrow will set a sprinkler on top and sit > inside. That should be a hoot for passerbys. > > Dave > M49 They'll think you're trying to grow it into an M23 :) -Peter- -- ======================== Peter Jacobs M17 "Enfin" Victoria BC Canada http://www.islandnet.com/~pjacobs/homepage.htm ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: Peter Jacobs Subject: M_Boats: M15 for sale Arizona Date: 29 Jan 2001 20:48:02 -0800 Saw this message on the Trailer Sailer Buletin Board. Thought someone might be interested. http://www.trailersailor.com/forums/classifieds/index.cgi?read=7279 -Peter- -- ======================== Peter Jacobs , M17 "Enfin" Victoria BC Canada http://www.islandnet.com/~pjacobs/homepage.htm ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: Doug King Subject: M_Boats: Transcript of PNW chapter MSOG Chat Date: 30 Jan 2001 00:04:14 -0500 is available now at: http://msog.brinet.net/msogchat/xscripts/pnw12901.xscript.htm until I get the menu built, under "You M-Talkin' To Me?" (20 minutes.) Doug King M-17 #404 "Vixen" MSOG Web site: http://msog.brinet.net Email: mailto:msog@brinet.net ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: Peter Jacobs Subject: M_Boats: Ferry Costs Date: 29 Jan 2001 21:13:02 -0800 Message for Steve from tonight's chat: Just reading over the chat again and I see I missed your question: Ferry costs from Vancouver to Victoria were about $150 Canadian when I bought the boat 2 years ago.Depends on your overall length, and if you are overheight, too. Hope this helps! -Peter- -- ======================== Peter Jacobs Victoria BC Canada http://www.islandnet.com/~pjacobs/homepage.htm ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: sparsons@canby.com (Steve Parsons) Subject: Re: M_Boats: Ferry Costs Date: 29 Jan 2001 22:02:13 -0800 Peter, Thank you. I may just try and head to Galiano and launch from there. Steve >Message for Steve from tonight's chat: >Just reading over the chat again and I see I missed your question: Ferry >costs from Vancouver to Victoria were about $150 Canadian when I bought >the boat 2 years ago.Depends on your overall length, and if you are >overheight, too. > >Hope this helps! > >-Peter- >-- >======================== >Peter Jacobs >Victoria BC Canada >http://www.islandnet.com/~pjacobs/homepage.htm > > > > ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: Fran Lebowitz Subject: Re: M_Boats: Bob Eeg Date: 29 Jan 2001 22:36:23 -0700 Michael & Lizabeth Towers wrote: > > I bought an M17 mast from Norsea last fall. Bob made sure he had the right > measurements , mounted the accessories, and shipped it to Minnesota on time and at a very fair price. He chatted with me of the phone several times about the details of my order without making me feel like I was wasting his time. My experience with Bob Eeg has been completely > satisfactory. I had the same great personal service when I ordered a storm jib from Bob last year, as well as an invite to tour the plant. Having purchased new boats from 2 other Ca. manufacturers, neither even came close to the attentive service we got from Bob. He's the best! Fran M15 #236 ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: Richard Lane Subject: Re: M_Boats: Ferry Costs Date: 29 Jan 2001 22:42:13 -0800 I'm not sure that the BC Ferry goes to Galiano Is. (Sturgis Bay) from Vancouver, I think it a "local" ferry from Twassen. Dick Steve Parsons wrote: > Peter, > > Thank you. I may just try and head to Galiano and launch from there. > > Steve > > ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: mikit Subject: Re: M_Boats: Ferry Costs Date: 29 Jan 2001 22:49:08 -0800 >Peter wrote: >Ferry costs from Vancouver to Victoria were about $150 Canadian when I bought >the boat 2 years ago.Depends on your overall length, and if you are >overheight, too. > Peter, what's that equivalent to in US, about 20 bucks? (kidding) As you know the Washington State Ferry has a web page with schedules and cost. http://www.wsdot.wa.gov/ferries/schedules/current/index.cfm/route/ana-sid.htm Big advantage, especially in peak season, goes to M-15 with a small tow vehicle. The total length of my rig would cost me $163.50 each way. Mike M17 #369 ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: GILASAILR@aol.com Subject: Re: M_Boats: Montgomery 15 or 17 For Single-Handed Launching/Retrieval? Date: 30 Jan 2001 02:11:05 EST --part1_85.6375f28.27a7c309_boundary Content-Type: text/plain; charset="US-ASCII" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit I own a M-17. I have owned a M-15. I think the 15 is a prettier boat although when I am sailing any of my boats I don't see them as an observer will. I will keep my 17 till they pry my fingers off the tiller. The rudder on the 17 may be used in positions between Full down and Full retract in my experience. The interior of the two boats do not even compare BUT the REAL difference is in the cockpit! ONE of THE BEST SAILBOAT COCKPITS UNDER 30' in the M-17! The argument regarding cost to maintain the two 15 vs 17 really don't hold much credence come-on the boats really can share the same equipment save an anchor. Sails will be more costly but not much if you shop. The tow vehicle may be the only thing that is really a factor. I have towed sailboats over 400k miles up to 10,000# (past life) and I would not tow anything with a vehicle rated for a max. trailer weight of 1000#. The vehicle is to small for a M-15, trailer, equip., mtr, etc. IMHO. A M-17 mast is not hard to step. If your back is not in good shape - get help, ask someone on the ramp or parking lot. That's what we are here for! If a M-15 has 'lots of storage' and the volume increases exponentially, then a 17 must be 'pretty roomy.' I will 'race' any 15, and hold my own or prevail IMHO (std rig 17, someday will be tall). I think a 15 Flush Deck or daysailer would be really cool and sensible. (water ballast, Jerry..?) Overall- M-17 better if you will be sleeping onboard or having Gentlewomen on board for a full day or more. Just my bucket o'stuff on the topic. I was going to be brief and just say: M-17 owners don't have to brag-on the boats...we just know it. Gary O. M-17 #319 Cheap Suit Serenader M- 7/11 Double Knit Dandy --part1_85.6375f28.27a7c309_boundary Content-Type: text/html; charset="US-ASCII" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit I own a M-17. I have owned a M-15. I think the 15 is a prettier boat although
when I am sailing any of my boats I don't see them as an observer will.

I will keep my 17 till they pry my fingers off the tiller.

The rudder on the 17 may be used in positions between Full down and Full
retract in my experience.

The interior of the two boats do not even compare BUT the REAL difference is
in the cockpit! ONE of THE BEST SAILBOAT COCKPITS UNDER 30' in the M-17!

The argument regarding cost to maintain the two 15 vs 17 really don't hold
much credence come-on the boats really can share the same equipment save an
anchor. Sails will be more costly but not much if you shop.

The tow vehicle may be the only thing that is really a factor. I have towed
sailboats over 400k miles up to 10,000# (past life) and I would not tow
anything with a vehicle rated for a max. trailer weight of 1000#. The vehicle
is to small for a M-15, trailer, equip., mtr, etc. IMHO.

A M-17 mast is not hard to step. If your back is not in good shape - get
help, ask someone on the ramp or parking lot. That's what we are here for!

If a M-15 has 'lots of storage' and the volume increases exponentially, then
a 17 must be 'pretty roomy.'

I will 'race' any 15, and hold my own or prevail IMHO (std rig 17, someday
will be tall).
I think a 15 Flush Deck or daysailer would be really cool and sensible.
(water ballast, Jerry..?)

Overall- M-17 better if you will be sleeping onboard or having Gentlewomen on
board for a full day or more.

Just my bucket o'stuff on the topic.

I was going to be brief and just say: M-17 owners don't have to brag-on the
boats...we just know it.

Gary O.
M-17 #319 Cheap Suit Serenader
M- 7/11 Double Knit Dandy

--part1_85.6375f28.27a7c309_boundary-- ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: "Peter Jacobs" Subject: Re: M_Boats: Ferry Costs Date: 30 Jan 2001 08:05:59 -0800 This is a multi-part message in MIME format. ------=_NextPart_000_0015_01C08A93.7AE18700 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Hi all, Check out the BC Ferries web site at http://www.bcferries.bc.ca/ for = more info. -Peter- =3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D= Peter Jacobs Senior Engineering Aide Township of Esquimalt Victoria BC Canada ----- Original Message -----=20 From: Richard Lane=20 To: montgomery_boats@lists.xmission.com=20 Sent: Monday, January 29, 2001 10:42 PM Subject: Re: M_Boats: Ferry Costs I'm not sure that the BC Ferry goes to Galiano Is. (Sturgis Bay) from Vancouver, I think it a "local" ferry from Twassen. Dick Steve Parsons wrote: > Peter, > > Thank you. I may just try and head to Galiano and launch from = there. > > Steve > > ------=_NextPart_000_0015_01C08A93.7AE18700 Content-Type: text/html; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable
Hi all,
Check out the BC Ferries web site at http://www.bcferries.bc.ca/ = ;for more=20 info.
 
-Peter-
=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D= =3D=3D
Peter Jacobs
Senior Engineering=20 Aide
Township of Esquimalt
Victoria BC Canada
----- Original Message -----
From:=20 Richard = Lane
To: montgomery_boats@list= s.xmission.com=20
Sent: Monday, January 29, 2001 = 10:42=20 PM
Subject: Re: M_Boats: Ferry = Costs

I'm not sure that the BC Ferry goes to Galiano Is. = (Sturgis=20 Bay) from
Vancouver, I think it a "local" ferry from=20 Twassen.
Dick


Steve Parsons wrote:

>=20 Peter,
>
> Thank you.  I may just try and head to = Galiano and=20 launch from there.
>
>=20 Steve
>
>


------=_NextPart_000_0015_01C08A93.7AE18700-- ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: rc2222@postoffice.pacbell.net Subject: Re: M_Boats: Jerry Montgomery's gem! Date: 30 Jan 2001 08:12:25 -0800 Connie: Thank's for your message. My in-laws are in Rochester, New Hampshire. I hope to take "Really" back sometime and enjoy my in-laws by sailing. rich Conbert H Benneck wrote: > Rich, > > Your statement, "Your goal is to get the smallest boat you can enjoy > without having to be a slave to it" sure hits the nail on the head. > > Bigger boat means more maintenance work; heavier outboard; bigger towing > vehicle (for three or four trips per year?); greater investment; more > expense. Divide the cost of the larger boat and car by the number of > nights you sleep aboard, and you'll come up with a number that will > convince you to stay at a motel rather than have the bigger boat and > sleep on board. > > Real comfort only comes when you get to about the 29 foot length. Then > it's standing headroom; a real galley; ice box; working head; and all the > comforts of home - heat, lights, music, good berths.... > > Anything smaller is camping. Then the question is how primitive are you > willing to go to spend a week on the water? > > I find my M15 ideal for my type of operation. The Admirable and I go to > Lake Champlain, hole up in a B&B, and go sailing for the day. If the > weather is bad, we do something else - visit museums, Tag Sales, the > local library, or find the Church roast beef supper. > > It's a lot more fun than being cooped up on a big boat! > > Connie > ________________________________________________________________ > GET INTERNET ACCESS FROM JUNO! > Juno offers FREE or PREMIUM Internet access for less! > Join Juno today! For your FREE software, visit: > http://dl.www.juno.com/get/tagj. ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: Don Olson Subject: Re: M_Boats: Nor'sea Yachts Date: 30 Jan 2001 10:46:24 -0700 Hi Jerry, I E-mailed you yesterday about my experience in purchasing a Montgomery 15 from Bob Eeg. As I haven't heard back from you and as I am not as computer literate as I would like to be, the message may not have reached you.(This one may not either as it is my first attempt to post to this board) In a nutshell, I live in Phoenix and contacted Bob this past summer to order a 15. In addition to the basic boat, I ordered an electrical system and also sent over a boarding ladder to be mounted In early November I drove to the factory to pick up the boat (hull #604). Because I arrived a little earlier than Bob expected the boat still had some minor work to be finished. While that was being done, I was able to spend some time touring the facility. Bob was quite helpful in showing me around and telling me about the boat. When the boat was ready we took it outside and Bob showed me how to rig everything. Four hours after I arrived I was on my way back to Phoenix. While the boat was everything I had hoped for, I was disappointed when I discovered the sail had a bolt rope instead of sail slugs. Bob suggested I try the bolt rope and if I didn't like it to send the sail back and he would have slugs installed at no extra charge. I tried the bolt rope a couple of times( in my driveway) and sent the sail back for slugs along with a request to add second reef points. Within two weeks the sail arrived back with the slugs and second reef point. There was no charge. As I summed up in my E-mail, Bob came through and I got what I paid for. Let me know if you need any more information. Don ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: sparsons@canby.com (Steve Parsons) Subject: M_Boats: Cap Sante Date: 30 Jan 2001 19:03:46 -0800 Dick, Is the launch ramp at Cap Sante in Anacortes?? Steve ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: Bob Subject: Re: M_Boats: Nor'sea Yachts Date: 30 Jan 2001 19:53:38 -0800 Hi Don Hope your enjoying "Puffer". We have another 15 almost done that we are building for Pete Master. Shes Ivory with a Maroon stripe and very nice. Pete lives in snow country so probably won't pick her up until a little later. Get any winter sailing done in Arizona? Thanks for the nice email..... Bob Nor'Sea Don Olson wrote: > Hi Jerry, > > I E-mailed you yesterday about my experience in purchasing a Montgomery > 15 from Bob Eeg. As I haven't heard back from you and as I am not as > computer literate as I would like to be, the message may not have > reached you.(This one may not either as it is my first attempt to post > to this board) > > In a nutshell, I live in Phoenix and contacted Bob this past summer to > order a 15. In addition to the basic boat, I ordered an electrical > system and also sent over a boarding ladder to be mounted In early > November I drove to the factory to pick up the boat (hull #604). > Because I arrived a little earlier than Bob expected the boat still > had some minor work to be finished. While that was being done, I was > able to spend some time touring the facility. Bob was quite helpful in > showing me around and telling me about the boat. When the boat was ready > we took it outside and Bob showed me how to rig everything. Four hours > after I arrived I was on my way back to Phoenix. > > While the boat was everything I had hoped for, I was disappointed when I > discovered the sail had a bolt rope instead of sail slugs. Bob > suggested I try the bolt rope and if I didn't like it to send the sail > back and he would have slugs installed at no extra charge. I tried the > bolt rope a couple of times( in my driveway) and sent the sail back for > slugs along with a request to add second reef points. Within two weeks > the sail arrived back with the slugs and second reef point. There was > no charge. > > As I summed up in my E-mail, Bob came through and I got what I paid for. > > Let me know if you need any more information. > > Don > > > > > > > ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: Harvey Wilson Subject: Re: M_Boats: Montgomery 15 or 17 For Single-Handed Date: 30 Jan 2001 23:13:53 -0500 Hi Jerry..and Larry.. I went for the M-17 because it's the best compromise for the boats that I'd _really_ like to have..a M-15 for singlehanding on my 4 x 8 mile Lak= e Lanier, and a M-23 for when I take the Admirable and the rest of the family. As it is, I turned down a deal on an Ericson 25+ and a M-23 that was for sale in Fla. because I had to sell the M-17. I can singlehand her fairly well, and now that she's in a slip I do it regularly. I haven't tried the several methods of raising the mast by myself, but I rig the rest of the boat alone. I have the Admirable hold onto the jib forestay extention (jib sheets attached to the turnbuckle) and pull as I walk the mast up or down. She also drives the 3 liter Aerostar down the ramp while I'm in the boat. The Aerostar pulls the boat effortlessly around Ga and the Tennessee mtns. I can't say how well Stargazer overnights...camping out to the Admirable = is Motel 6, but I may try it alone this spring. As you can tell...I'm sold on the M-17 if it's my only boat. Harvey/Ga M-17 Stargazer #294 = ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: "Morris, Giles" Subject: RE: M_Boats: CBR2001 etc Date: 30 Jan 2001 22:18:19 -0600 >Near the Choptank are the tides insignificant? In the summer, the tidal range in the Choptank is no more than a couple of feet. Don't worry about the apparent lack of water. For the most part there is plenty of gloppy, sticky, oozy black, smelly mud under it. Giles Morris Arlington VA Vancouver 25 #002 "Dolphin" Montgomery 15 #264 "Umiaq" Sundry kayaks ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: Richard Lane Subject: Re: M_Boats: Cap Sante Date: 30 Jan 2001 22:43:57 -0800 Yes, Dick Steve Parsons wrote: > Dick, > > Is the launch ramp at Cap Sante in Anacortes?? > > Steve ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: "Russ Browne" Subject: Re: M_Boats: Montgomery 15 or 17 For Single-Handed Launching/Retrieval? Date: 31 Jan 2001 10:47:48 -0500 Gerry, listen to your charming and intelligent wife! I understand that Bob now has a mast raising rig for the 17 which would probably help a lot. I have sailed ComPacs for 21 years, and had a Montgomery 15 as well, for a season. The 15 is a great sailing boat for 1 or 2, but I would never have overnighted in it. I also found it small for my build %'10'', 230#. The Monty was a much better sailer than my trusty ComPac, though! Trailering the 17 would not be a problem for most 6 cyl cars. I have hauled my ComPac 19 all over with a variety of Sables, Crown Vics, Plymouth Voyagers, and my current Toyota Sienna van. The Monty is probably 800 to 1000 # lighter, including trailer and motor. I'd go for the 17. In fact, I plan to visit Bob at the factory next month and take a look at the new 17 as a possible downsize to my ComPac. Good luck on your decision! Russ Browne "Windsong" 1990 ComPac 19 #530 Lake St Clair Clinton Township, MI _________________________________________________________________ Get your FREE download of MSN Explorer at http://explorer.msn.com