From: "David and Nancy Phippeny" Subject: M_Boats: Texas Sailing Date: 01 Mar 2001 18:29:00 -0600 This is a multi-part message in MIME format. ------=_NextPart_000_000B_01C0A27D.7C1163A0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Randy, April 22,23,24 would be great for me to go to the coast. Have been = thinking of a trip there and would like the company. Rockport /Port A / = Corpus would be great. Anytime here at Canyon Lake would be good. My days off are Sun., = Mon.,Tues and after 4 on Sat. Looking forward. Dave ------=_NextPart_000_000B_01C0A27D.7C1163A0 Content-Type: text/html; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable
Randy,
April 22,23,24 would be great for me to = go to the=20 coast.  Have been thinking of a trip there and would like the=20 company.  Rockport /Port A / Corpus would be great.
 
Anytime here at Canyon Lake would be = good.  My=20 days off are Sun., Mon.,Tues and after 4 on Sat.
Looking forward.
Dave
------=_NextPart_000_000B_01C0A27D.7C1163A0-- ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: Loyd Myers Subject: M_Boats: new M17 owner Date: 01 Mar 2001 17:30:22 -0800 Hello all, I'm the proud new owner of M17 #334 (formerly Rachel Landman's boat). As you may know, Rachel did a bunch of work on it, but some work remains -- I think in particular, the centerboard needs the sort of treatment that was discussed recently on the list (i think January), the bottom needs some work, and miscellaneous items need to be re-bedded. Anyway, i'm wondering, of the M boat owner's in the NW, if anyone has any recommendations for someone who would do a good job on such work in the seattle/everett area. I hate to just call up some place out of the phone book. I had seaview west do some work on my Island Packett 27 a few years ago, but had a more-or-less neutral experience. any thoughts are welcome. thanks, Loyd Myers Everett, WA M17#334 (not yet named ;) ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: "Bill Riker" Subject: RE: M_Boats: RE: Asymmetrical spinnaker Date: 01 Mar 2001 17:59:45 -0500 Dan, Howard is the one who suggested dual head sails for downwind sailing. I don't have a problem with wing and wing. I have used a preventer, and am comfortable in doing so in light conditions. When the wind is up, I'm concerned that using a preventer in an accidental jibe could catch the upper main and rip the sail along the foot. Bill Riker wriker@mindspring.com 412-341-7198 -----Original Message----- [mailto:owner-montgomery_boats@lists.xmission.com]On Behalf Of Dan White Sent: February 26, 2001 10:24 PM Can't you use a preventer? Get a line on the boom and cleat it off? Dan Bill Riker wrote: > Howard, > > > You do have the > accidental jibe hazard, if you're careless, Jerry Lehner wrote: > ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: Howard A Subject: M_Boats: More Books Date: 01 Mar 2001 21:14:14 -0600 Did a search on the books on tape web site, and they a have a number of sailing titles on tape, but I forgot my boat hauler (BIG IRON) only has a CD player. Books on tape has a CD section, but I don't recognize any of the titles as being mentioned during the last few weeks flurry. http://www.booksontape.com/cd.cfm If someone is bored and would like to scan the CD titles available to make a recommendation, I would appreciate it. Howard ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: Doug King Subject: M_Boats: The M-23 saga continues... Date: 01 Mar 2001 23:04:45 -0500 When we last visited our intrepid builders, the plug was being smoothed out. Much has happened since then, most noticeably the addition of a lovely shade of red. WHAT!? Check it out. A new set of nine photos showing the latest progress on the M-23. Look for Part Two under the Montgomery Boats Section. Thanks to Bob Eeg for providing these for us. With all of this discussion of books and Bs-O-T, do we want our own local list of literature on the MSOG, or are links to the ones already mentioned good (assuming someone enters them as Links.) I added that first big'un under "Reference". Let me know. Doug Doug King M-17 #404 "Vixen" MSOG Web site: http://msog.brinet.net Email: mailto:msog@brinet.net ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: "Roberta & Mark Dvorscak" Subject: M_Boats: Welcome Loyd Date: 01 Mar 2001 20:31:52 -0800 Welcome to our happy family Loyd. I don't have any experience with Seattle area boatyards, so I can't help you there. I hope you enjoy your "new" boat as much as the rest of us enjoy ours. Fair Winds. Mark Dvorscak M17 #400 GRACE ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: Richard Lane Subject: Re: M_Boats: new M17 owner Date: 02 Mar 2001 23:22:44 -0800 Try Galmukoff Marine in Port Townsend, they did work on M23 Sadhana (Larry's boat). mikgalmo@olypen.com Dick > the > bottom needs some work, and miscellaneous items need to be re-bedded. > Anyway, i'm wondering, of the M boat owner's in the NW, if anyone > has any recommendations for someone who would do a good job on such work > in the seattle/everett area. I hate to just call up some place out of > the phone book. > > Loyd Myers > Everett, WA > M17#334 (not yet named ;) ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: "Randy Watkins" Subject: Re: M_Boats: Texas Sailing Date: 02 Mar 2001 08:10:44 -0600 hello Dave, I'll keep you posted as things develop.=20 take care Randy W. M15#194 >>> davenanc@gvtc.com 03/01/01 06:29PM >>> Randy, April 22,23,24 would be great for me to go to the coast. Have been = thinking of a trip there and would like the company. Rockport /Port A / = Corpus would be great. Anytime here at Canyon Lake would be good. My days off are Sun., = Mon.,Tues and after 4 on Sat. Looking forward. Dave ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: Tom Smith Subject: RE: M_Boats: The M-23 saga continues... Date: 02 Mar 2001 07:39:24 -0800 Hmmm. Jerry Montgomerys beginning to look a lot like Gerry Garcia these days... Tom Smith LineSoft Corporation Phone: 509-928-1707 ext. 248 Fax: 509-928-2581 E-mail: tsmith@linesoft.com Website: www.linesoft.com -----Original Message----- Sent: Thursday, March 01, 2001 8:05 PM When we last visited our intrepid builders, the plug was being smoothed out. Much has happened since then, most noticeably the addition of a lovely shade of red. WHAT!? Check it out. A new set of nine photos showing the latest progress on the M-23. Look for Part Two under the Montgomery Boats Section. Thanks to Bob Eeg for providing these for us. With all of this discussion of books and Bs-O-T, do we want our own local list of literature on the MSOG, or are links to the ones already mentioned good (assuming someone enters them as Links.) I added that first big'un under "Reference". Let me know. Doug Doug King M-17 #404 "Vixen" MSOG Web site: http://msog.brinet.net Email: mailto:msog@brinet.net ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: Loyd Myers Subject: Re: M_Boats: new M17 owner Date: 02 Mar 2001 15:04:24 -0800 Thanks to Dick and Mark for the welcome and info. I drove up to Arlington today and picked up the M17. It was the first time i had ever seen one in real life. If you'll forgive my freshman burst of exuberance, it is a *way cool* boat! I can't wait to get it in the water Loyd m17#334 p.s. my 1988 saab turbo towed her pretty effortlessly. I was pleasantly surprised ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: Dale Williams Subject: M_Boats: Monty's in San Diego? Date: 03 Mar 2001 00:00:03 -0600 I am leaving the Northwoods behind for a week and flying to San Diego tomorrow to visit my in-laws on Coronado. My M15 is the only Montgomery that I have had the pleasure to see in person. Are there any Mboats in the San Diego area and would any owners be willing to show them off? Sailing is a little slow in Central Minnesota right now. I took a picture of my boat in the water this week and posted it at . I am hoping the water will liquify before May... Dale Williams Staples MN Montgomery 15 #185 "Sophie Mae" ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: Doug Kelch Subject: Re: M_Boats: Monty's in San Diego? Date: 03 Mar 2001 11:23:10 -0500 Dale, Great picture! With that it's hard to "think spring". A major east coast snow storm is on the way and I hate to think of all the local boats looking that preety but desolate. Doug "Seas the Day" Dale Williams wrote: > ISailing is a little slow in Central Minnesota right now. I took a > picture of my boat in the water this week and posted it at > . I am hoping the water will liquify > before May... > > Dale Williams > Staples MN > > Montgomery 15 #185 "Sophie Mae" ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: "Jerry Lehner" Subject: Re: M_Boats: Monty's in San Diego? Date: 03 Mar 2001 12:47:21 -0800 I've always lamented not living at least ten degrees latitude further south. Never gave longitude much thought until viewing Dale's photo. Oregon rain isn't so bad after all! Jerry >From: Doug Kelch >Reply-To: montgomery_boats@lists.xmission.com >To: montgomery_boats@lists.xmission.com >Subject: Re: M_Boats: Monty's in San Diego? >Date: Sat, 03 Mar 2001 11:23:10 -0500 > >Dale, > Great picture! With that it's hard to "think spring". A major east >coast snow storm is on the way and I hate to think of all the local boats >looking that preety but desolate. > >Doug >"Seas the Day" > >Dale Williams wrote: > > > ISailing is a little slow in Central Minnesota right now. I took a > > picture of my boat in the water this week and posted it at > > . I am hoping the water will liquify > > before May... > > > > Dale Williams > > Staples MN > > > > Montgomery 15 #185 "Sophie Mae" > > _________________________________________________________________ Get your FREE download of MSN Explorer at http://explorer.msn.com ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: "Ian & Judi Black" Subject: Re: M_Boats: Monty's in San Diego? Date: 03 Mar 2001 15:44:09 -0800 Dale, That's an impressive snow load on that cabin top! Another testament to a Montgomery"s ability to handle any weather! Ian M-17 #343 Seaweeble ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: Michael L Bowden Subject: Re: M_Boats: new M17 owner Date: 04 Mar 2001 11:15:30 -0600 Hi Loyd, Welcome to the proud group of Montgomery owners. I have met Rachel and had her as a guest aboard my M17. Congrats on aquiring her boat and I'm jealous of the wonderful cruising grounds you have in your area. Be sure to keep us posted on your exploits. Do you still have your IP27? ( I think those are beautiful machines). Later, Michael "Bones" Bowden M17 #92 Mpls ________________________________________________________________ GET INTERNET ACCESS FROM JUNO! Juno offers FREE or PREMIUM Internet access for less! Join Juno today! For your FREE software, visit: http://dl.www.juno.com/get/tagj. ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: Tim McInerney Subject: M_Boats: M17 motor Date: 04 Mar 2001 13:40:34 -0500 Dear Montgomery colleagues: I sail my Montgomery '17 #387 (1984) between Long Island New York, the Coastal Atlantic and New York City/Hudson River. Last year someone took a chainsaw to my motor mount in order to make off with my old trusty Mariner 5 hp. outboard. So I've replaced the mount with new motor mount bracket that raises & lowers via springs. Now I'm debating motors. Sure could use more power than the old 5 hp. The Honda 9.9 hp. looks like a fine outboard My only concern is that it weighs ~ 100 lbs. Anyone have any experience or opinions about how much motor weight we can hang off the back of an M17 vis-a-vis balance, etc.? Warm regards, Tim McInerney M17 #387 The Big Apple (NYC) ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: Bob Subject: Re: M_Boats: M17 motor Date: 04 Mar 2001 11:16:24 -0800 Tim I think the 9.9 honda at 100 pounds is just too much weight for the 17. Many owners are reporting good performance with 5 hp and some have 4 hp motors. Perhaps the new Honda 4 cycle 5 HP would be a good choice. Bob Tim McInerney wrote: > Dear Montgomery colleagues: > > I sail my Montgomery '17 #387 (1984) between Long Island New York, the > Coastal Atlantic and New York City/Hudson River. Last year someone took a > chainsaw to my motor mount in order to make off with my old trusty Mariner 5 > hp. outboard. > > So I've replaced the mount with new motor mount bracket that raises & lowers > via springs. Now I'm debating motors. Sure could use more power than the old > 5 hp. The Honda 9.9 hp. looks like a fine outboard My only concern is that > it weighs ~ 100 lbs. > > Anyone have any experience or opinions about how much motor weight we can > hang off the back of an M17 vis-a-vis balance, etc.? > > Warm regards, > > Tim McInerney > M17 #387 > The Big Apple (NYC) > > > > > > ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: "greg" Subject: Re: M_Boats: M17 motor Date: 04 Mar 2001 11:37:53 -0800 Tim, I recently boughty a Honda 5hp and have the same motor mount as you. I recently read that Tohatsu has a 6hp (made by Nissan) and it is lighter than the Honda. My old 2 cycle 5hp was a Tohatsu and I had it for 15 yrs. Greg M-17 #395 Full Monty -----Original Message----- >Dear Montgomery colleagues: > >I sail my Montgomery '17 #387 (1984) between Long Island New York, the >Coastal Atlantic and New York City/Hudson River. Last year someone took a >chainsaw to my motor mount in order to make off with my old trusty Mariner 5 >hp. outboard. > >So I've replaced the mount with new motor mount bracket that raises & lowers >via springs. Now I'm debating motors. Sure could use more power than the old >5 hp. The Honda 9.9 hp. looks like a fine outboard My only concern is that >it weighs ~ 100 lbs. > >Anyone have any experience or opinions about how much motor weight we can >hang off the back of an M17 vis-a-vis balance, etc.? > >Warm regards, > >Tim McInerney >M17 #387 >The Big Apple (NYC) > > > ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: Michael & Lizabeth Towers Subject: Re: M_Boats: M17 motor Date: 04 Mar 2001 15:09:26 -0600 I use a 2-stroke 6 hp Johnson Sailmaster longshaft. It probably weighs about 60 lbs, and I wouldn't want anything heavier on the transom of an M17. With the fuel tank, ground tackle, and crew at that end of the boat there's plenty of weight back there already! >Dear Montgomery colleagues: > >I sail my Montgomery '17 #387 (1984) between Long Island New York, the >Coastal Atlantic and New York City/Hudson River. Last year someone took a >chainsaw to my motor mount in order to make off with my old trusty Mariner 5 >hp. outboard. > >So I've replaced the mount with new motor mount bracket that raises & lowers >via springs. Now I'm debating motors. Sure could use more power than the old >5 hp. The Honda 9.9 hp. looks like a fine outboard My only concern is that >it weighs ~ 100 lbs. > >Anyone have any experience or opinions about how much motor weight we can >hang off the back of an M17 vis-a-vis balance, etc.? > >Warm regards, > >Tim McInerney >M17 #387 >The Big Apple (NYC) ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: "Russ Browne" Subject: Re: M_Boats: M17 motor Date: 04 Mar 2001 16:39:05 -0500 Tim, I will second Bob Eegs thoughts. A Honda 4-cycle 5-HP would be about perfect for your boat. I use one on my ComPac 19 and it's a fine engine. One caution...make sure whatever engine you buy is supported by a strong dealer network where you live. For example, Mercury makes a great line of 4-cycle engines, and they are sold and serviced by many more dealers than Hondas, including West Marine. If I were buying tday, I'd at least consider Mercury, Yamaha (nice, light 4HP, 4-cycle), aa well as Honda. Russ Browne "Windsong" 1990 ComPac 19 #530 Lake St Clair Clinton Township, MI _________________________________________________________________ Get your FREE download of MSN Explorer at http://explorer.msn.com ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: LBarkhuff@cs.com Subject: M_Boats: Prodigal son (daughter) Date: 04 Mar 2001 17:03:48 EST Found this listing in the March 01, Latitude 38.... M23, 1980, 5 sails, trailer, keel/cb, 7.5 Honda, head, anchor. propane stove, 3 berths......$7000 obo 408-354-8760 \ Owners name is John, and this is one that I did not know about or have the name of the owner on the 23 list....Maybe there were more than 20 built, huh Jerry???? the lady says the cb pendant is broken, but trailer is included, and they have owned the boat since new, and it is factory finish inside, egg shell color, good sails, and has been in Delta area of Cal. They are 80 years old and are through sailing......Larry ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: Saltm17@aol.com Subject: Re: M_Boats: M17 motor Date: 04 Mar 2001 17:15:20 EST Tim, I have an Evinrude 8 long shaft on my Montgomery 17. It weighs about 56 lbs. At that it is awful heavy on the back of the boat. I can lift it up out of the water on the motor mount (spring loaded). It does put a list on the boat, especially with the heavy battery on the same side. The biggest concern with the weight is that it affects sail performance. The boat is squatting with all that weight back there. I race my M17 and take the motor off each time. It makes a big difference. When I'm cruising I keep it on for two reasons: 1) it's paid for 2) it provides a lot of power even backing up (I keep my boat in a slip and have to back in). I found out that if I can get the boat level, it will give great gas mileage at 3 knots. I was very glad to have it when I crossed the Chesapeake bay (about 15 miles) after cutting my plam(dumb accident) and the wind died off completely. The boat came with one of those air cooled 3 horse motors that Sears use to sell, but it just didn't have enough power. I think they made them with fishing in mind (small propeller). It quit on us when we were in a storm (well it seemed like a storm to us new sailors) and my wife bought me the Evinrude the next day. (hmm..that's probably reason # 3 for keeping it). Anyway, that's my 2 cents worth. John M17 # 372 Miss T ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: Loyd Myers Subject: Re: M_Boats: new M17 owner Date: 04 Mar 2001 15:05:21 -0800 Michael, thanks much. I do not have the Island Packet anymore -- I had it for three years, and cruised all over the sound in it -- a fine boat she was -- wouldn't point too high tho. It seems in the NW, the waterways run north/south and so does the wind, so your either running or its on your nose. I'm looking forward to the M17 because I think I will be able to do most everything I did on the 27 for *way* less $$. I'm thinking about taking some of the "savings" and, of course, outfitting -- mine doesn't have a galley so i'm looking at portable options. (can't see sailing without hot chocolate on demand ;). Also Frog's Leap (the IP) had fully enclosed canvas on the cockpit -- we sailed her year round as the good winds here are in the non-summer months. Has anyone experimented with enclosing the cockpit. Memory tells me sheeting system for main may be in the way. later, Loyd M17#334 Michael L Bowden wrote: > Hi Loyd, > > Welcome to the proud group of Montgomery owners. I have met Rachel and > had her as a guest aboard my M17. Congrats on aquiring her boat and I'm > jealous of the wonderful cruising grounds you have in your area. Be sure > to keep us posted on your exploits. Do you still have your IP27? ( I > think those are beautiful machines). > > Later, > > Michael "Bones" Bowden > M17 #92 > Mpls > ________________________________________________________________ > GET INTERNET ACCESS FROM JUNO! > Juno offers FREE or PREMIUM Internet access for less! > Join Juno today! For your FREE software, visit: > http://dl.www.juno.com/get/tagj. ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: AirEvacLen@aol.com Subject: Re: M_Boats: M17 motor Date: 04 Mar 2001 18:35:36 EST In a message dated 03/04/2001 3:16:01 PM US Mountain Standard Time, Saltm17@aol.com writes: << and my wife bought me the Evinrude the next day. (hmm..that's probably reason # 3 for keeping it). Anyway, that's my 2 cents worth. >> and worth every cent, I'd say John......... Lenny ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: sparsons@canby.com (Steve Parsons) Subject: M_Boats: The Holy Grail of Boating Date: 04 Mar 2001 18:14:19 -0800 Gang, I think I have found it. Absolutely something that none of us self respecting Montgomery Boat owners could do without. And, what is it you ask... Why it's personalized cordage for your boat... Just imagine... "Your name here", on your very own dock lines. Actually, after all the smart___ comments above, I really did like it. Check it out at www.MyRope.com. Regards, Steve ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: "Joe Kidd" Subject: Re: M_Boats: Monty's in San Diego? Date: 04 Mar 2001 18:37:23 -0800 Dale, Great picture. You'll have to re-arch the springs after that snowload. Joe Kidd M15 #3207 "Poca A Poco" ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: Sandyal55@aol.com Subject: Re: M_Boats: M17 motor Date: 04 Mar 2001 21:40:09 EST --part1_be.10cf1f78.27d45689_boundary Content-Type: text/plain; charset="US-ASCII" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit I agree with the Yamaha choice. A friend who sailed around the world, said that Yamaha service and support is available world wide. They make a great 4hp 4 stroke motor. 4 strokes have more torque than 2 strokes, so the push is better given equal hp. My friends use a 9.9 on Catalina 25's. That's way too big for a 17. I had a 2 stroke 8hp on an Aquarious 23 and it was the perfect motor size. Sandy in AZ --part1_be.10cf1f78.27d45689_boundary Content-Type: text/html; charset="US-ASCII" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit I agree with the Yamaha choice. A friend who sailed around the world, said
that Yamaha service and support is available world wide. They make a great
4hp 4 stroke motor. 4 strokes have more torque than 2 strokes, so the push is
better given equal hp. My friends use a 9.9 on Catalina 25's. That's way too
big for a 17. I had a 2 stroke 8hp on an Aquarious 23 and it was the perfect
motor size.
Sandy in AZ --part1_be.10cf1f78.27d45689_boundary-- ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: Doug King Subject: M_Boats: Portable Galley Date: 04 Mar 2001 22:55:14 -0500 At 03:05 PM 3/4/01 -0800, you wrote: > I'm looking forward to the M17 because I think I will be able to do most >everything I did on the 27 for *way* less $$. I'm thinking about taking >some of the "savings" and, of course, outfitting -- mine doesn't have a >galley so i'm looking at portable options. (can't see sailing without hot >chocolate on demand ;). >Loyd >M17#334 Funny you should mention your need for a portable galley. Fran just sent in pictures, layout and inventory for a portable galley that I think has been discussed here recently. Fits under the cockpit of an M-15, so I'm gonna go out on a limb and say maybe, just MAYBE, it fits in the 17, too (it's a short limb). The material comes from Charles Matthews via Fran. I was planning to procrastinate (can you do that?) before putting them up, but now I guess I'll have to do my job. I'll try to have all up tomorrow night. Will let you know when it's ready. Doug Doug King M-17 #404 "Vixen" MSOG Web site: http://msog.brinet.net Email: mailto:msog@brinet.net ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: Harvey Wilson Subject: M_Boats: M17 motor Date: 04 Mar 2001 23:37:25 -0500 Hi Tim... My M-17 had an 8hp Evinrude yachtwin on it when I bought it. It was sail= ed in the Gulf of Mexico, so I guess 8hp came in handy at times. It weighs about 60 pounds, IIRC, and is a 2 cycle twin. As I now sail on an inland lake, I used a 3hp Seagull for about 3 years, and moved up to a 5ho with Fwd and Rev. I gather that your 9.9hp is 4 cycle from it's weight. Unless you add ballast to the bow, it'll be too heavy, especially with 2-3 people in the= cockpit. Not familiar with your sailing waters, but you might consider an 8hp, as they might weigh less. The 9.9 is essentially a de-tuned 15 hp. Regards, Harvey/Ga M-17 Stargazer #294 ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: Howard A Subject: Re: M_Boats: M17 motor Date: 05 Mar 2001 07:01:19 -0600 Harvey Wilson wrote: > The 9.9 is essentially a de-tuned 15 hp. > These work great on some of our restricted lakes with 10 HP limits. Some have suspected they were actually 18 HP, with 9.9 decals on them. Like putting a PW number on an 8 iron and making you think you are hitting it farther. My old Johnson Sailmaster 4 hp has a sliding throttle, geared down lower unit and high thrust prop. How do they adapt the current crop of small motors to sailboat use? As I understand it, the only one Mercury markets as a true sail motor is the 9.9 sail. Is that just a decal thing too, or do they actually change the specs on it? Howard M17, #278 ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: Harvey Wilson Subject: Re: M_Boats: M17 motor Date: 05 Mar 2001 14:15:04 -0500 Hi Howard.. >> As I understand it, the only one Mercury markets as a true sail motor is the 9.9 sail. Is that just a decal thing too, or do they actuall= y change the specs on it?<< Not much into US outboards other then a slight familiarity with Evinrude.= = To be classed as a sail boat motor, it needs a longer then normal drive shaft. The 'Rude has a 25 inch length, but I see some that only have 20 inches. My 2 longshaft Seagulls have a 22 in. shaft, vs the normal 16 in. More then enough for our cutout transom boats. Harvey/Ga M-17 Stargazer #294 ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: Richard Lane Subject: Re: M_Boats: M17 motor Date: 06 Mar 2001 13:30:36 -0800 I had a Mariner 8HP elecric start 2 cycle o/b on my 23 with x/long lower unit, about 80lbs. I believe that Mariners are the workboat line of Mercury Marine and have larger, slower rpm, lower pitch props. It pushed the 4000lbs+ through 4' waves without cavitating. Dick ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: Howard A Subject: M_Boats: MSOG Chat Date: 05 Mar 2001 20:04:35 -0600 For those of us who frequent the Chat room, we seem to have a lot of near misses just checking in at random. We should pick a "standard" time to check in. I vote for 9 PM Eastern, but that isn't set in concrete. If there is a better time...I'm all for it. And if there is one night better than the rest, that just increases the chances even more. Mondays and Wednesdays are best for me. Happy Sails.... Howard M17 #278 ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: TOMMYVAL@aol.com Subject: Re: M_Boats: M17 motor Date: 05 Mar 2001 22:06:37 EST --part1_76.84f7440.27d5ae3d_boundary Content-Type: text/plain; charset="US-ASCII" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Just as a point of information I read in the March 01 "Soundings" that Outboard Marine corp had filed for bankruptcy. (Chapter 11). As you know the Evinrudes and Johnson's were made by these guys. they filed on 12/22/00. Just thought I'd pass it on. take care Gary --part1_76.84f7440.27d5ae3d_boundary Content-Type: text/html; charset="US-ASCII" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Just as a point of information I read in the March 01 "Soundings" that
Outboard Marine corp had filed for bankruptcy. (Chapter 11). As you know the
Evinrudes and Johnson's were made by these guys. they filed on 12/22/00.  
Just thought I'd pass it on.

take care

Gary
--part1_76.84f7440.27d5ae3d_boundary-- ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: "Bill Riker" Subject: RE: M_Boats: M17 motor Date: 05 Mar 2001 21:54:09 -0500 Tim, The gearing and prop are important. My M15 came with a Sears Gamefisher 5hp. After two years, I bought a Honda 4-stroke 2hp, which pushes the boat at hull speed with less throttle than the Sears. I believe the 5 was propped for pushing a light skiff at planing speeds; a small fast turning two blade prop. The little Honda has a slower three blade, and it really gets the job done. Depending on conditions, I can run 2 to 4 hours on the 1-litre integral tank. I don't have a knotmeter, and just bought a GPS, but if you estimate 3-4 knots, that's better mileage than my Tercel! Bill Riker M-15 #184 Storm Petrel -----Original Message----- [mailto:owner-montgomery_boats@lists.xmission.com]On Behalf Of Richard Lane Sent: March 06, 2001 4:31 PM I had a Mariner 8HP elecric start 2 cycle o/b on my 23 with x/long lower unit, about 80lbs. I believe that Mariners are the workboat line of Mercury Marine and have larger, slower rpm, lower pitch props. It pushed the 4000lbs+ through 4' waves without cavitating. Dick ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: sparsons@canby.com (Steve Parsons) Subject: Re: M_Boats: M17 motor Date: 05 Mar 2001 19:24:15 -0800 The 8 horse Honda that I use for my Catalina and on my Arima is supposed to weigh in at 78 pounds. That's a chunk to get up to the motor mount... Steve >Hi Tim... > >My M-17 had an 8hp Evinrude yachtwin on it when I bought it. It was sailed >in the Gulf of Mexico, so I guess 8hp came in handy at times. It weighs >about 60 pounds, IIRC, and is a 2 cycle twin. > >As I now sail on an inland lake, I used a 3hp Seagull for about 3 years, >and moved up to a 5ho with Fwd and Rev. > >I gather that your 9.9hp is 4 cycle from it's weight. Unless you add >ballast to the bow, it'll be too heavy, especially with 2-3 people in the >cockpit. > >Not familiar with your sailing waters, but you might consider an 8hp, as >they might weigh less. The 9.9 is essentially a de-tuned 15 hp. > > Regards, > > Harvey/Ga > >M-17 Stargazer #294 > > > > > > ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: DDAYSTROM@aol.com Subject: Re: M_Boats: M17 motor Date: 06 Mar 2001 00:39:41 EST Things move pretty fast. The April 01 "Soundngs" report that Bombardier Inc bought OMC's outboard division and Genmar purchased OMC's boat division. -al williams In a message dated 3/5/01 7:07:08 PM, TOMMYVAL@aol.com writes: << Just as a point of information I read in the March 01 "Soundings" that Outboard Marine corp had filed for bankruptcy. (Chapter 11). As you know the Evinrudes and Johnson's were made by these guys. they filed on 12/22/00. Just thought I'd pass it on. >> ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: "Morris, Giles" Subject: RE: M_Boats: M17 motor Date: 06 Mar 2001 10:10:49 -0600 >My M15 came with a Sears Gamefisher That reminds me of a friend's boat that I looked after for a while -- it had an air cooled Sears outboard with a F-N clutch. Unfortunately, it turned out that it was meant to have F-N-R (could live with that) and it was meant to be water cooled. Oops! Actually, it was all for the best because we ended up with a used Evinrude that started first pull every time. BTW: Somebody mentioned the OMC bankruptcy... Bombardier bought the engine division. Giles ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: Michael L Bowden Subject: Re: M_Boats: Prodigal son (daughter) Date: 06 Mar 2001 14:58:01 -0600 Larry, What a price! Pinch me to see if I'm dreaming. I bet she needs some elbow grease. Perhaps the new owner (whomever that may be) will tell us about her. Later, Bones M17 ________________________________________________________________ GET INTERNET ACCESS FROM JUNO! Juno offers FREE or PREMIUM Internet access for less! Join Juno today! For your FREE software, visit: http://dl.www.juno.com/get/tagj. ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: Michael L Bowden Subject: Re: M_Boats: new M17 owner Date: 06 Mar 2001 15:00:21 -0600 Loyd, Be sure and keep us informed about your cruises in the sound. That's on my list of things to do. Later, Michael "Bones" Bowden M17 #92 With a new headsail and motor for the coming season ________________________________________________________________ GET INTERNET ACCESS FROM JUNO! Juno offers FREE or PREMIUM Internet access for less! Join Juno today! For your FREE software, visit: http://dl.www.juno.com/get/tagj. ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: Michael L Bowden Subject: Re: M_Boats: M17 motor Date: 06 Mar 2001 15:05:24 -0600 Listers, I have purchased a Yamaha 4hp 4 stroke for the M17. I can't comment on preformance seeing my boat is in it's drydock (my biergarten) with 20" of snow around her. My old Johnson 6hp 2 stroke weighed 58 lbs, the Yamaha is 49 lbs. The old Johnson was beginning to piss me off, killing at the most inapproprate times. Looking forward to spring in a big way. Later, Bones M17 #92 ________________________________________________________________ GET INTERNET ACCESS FROM JUNO! Juno offers FREE or PREMIUM Internet access for less! Join Juno today! For your FREE software, visit: http://dl.www.juno.com/get/tagj. ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: Sandyal55@aol.com Subject: Re: M_Boats: M17 motor Date: 06 Mar 2001 18:15:34 EST --part1_70.868fa3b.27d6c996_boundary Content-Type: text/plain; charset="US-ASCII" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit , killing at the most inapproprate times My old Johnson 8 hp would do the same thing. Changing the plugs usually fixed it. I did have to rebuild the carb twice in 13 yrs. The idle jet is sensitive to any debris in the fuel line. Sandy --part1_70.868fa3b.27d6c996_boundary Content-Type: text/html; charset="US-ASCII" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit , killing at the most inapproprate times




My old Johnson 8 hp would do the same thing. Changing the plugs usually fixed
it. I did have to rebuild the carb twice in 13 yrs. The idle jet is sensitive
to any debris in the fuel line.
Sandy --part1_70.868fa3b.27d6c996_boundary-- ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: LBarkhuff@cs.com Subject: Re: M_Boats: M17 motor Date: 06 Mar 2001 19:30:12 EST Did you read recently that the OMC thing is all hunky dory....new ownership, etc. Nothing for anyone to sweat...Larry ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: Conbert H Benneck Subject: Re: M_Boats: M17 motor Date: 06 Mar 2001 20:04:02 -0500 Bones, You beat me with snow depth. Our New England Nor' easter, yesterday and today, gave us about 15 inches. This afternoon the snowfall stopped, and so I went out with my trusty manual M1A1 Type shovel and cleaned off the remaining snow, from the driveway and from the cover on the M15 (must have been about 100 lbs worth), after my neighbor's son had dug us out this morning with his humongus snow machine. The barometer was rising, so we yelled hurrah, it's gone; it's over - and then around 3 PM it started all over again. Now you see none of my handiwork: everything is white again. Sheesh! It's March! The snowdrops are peeking out. It's time to start thinking about spring boat work, and what do we get, more snow! If this doesn't stop soon I may loose a wife. She's had it with snow and cold weather, and after our week in the Carribean, in December, with warm water and 80 degree temperatures, she's ready to head back there. Connie ________________________________________________________________ GET INTERNET ACCESS FROM JUNO! Juno offers FREE or PREMIUM Internet access for less! Join Juno today! For your FREE software, visit: http://dl.www.juno.com/get/tagj. ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: "Joe Kidd" Subject: M_Boats: Snow vs Warm Weather Date: 06 Mar 2001 18:54:31 -0800 > If this doesn't stop soon I may loose a wife. She's had it with snow and > cold weather, and after our week in the Carribean, in December, with > warm water and 80 degree temperatures, she's ready to head back there. Connie, Just take your admirable back to warmer climes where you'll both be happy. The boat will still be there waiting when you get home. Besides, you'll save enough for the air fare by reducing utility bills. Joe ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: Conbert H Benneck Subject: Re: M_Boats: Snow vs Warm Weather Date: 08 Mar 2001 20:14:41 -0500 Joe, Lovely thought! The Admirable is all for it, but as of tomorrow we are promised another 6 to 8 inches of snow, and I have to keep the snow shovel properly oiled to cope with the nuisance. My squirrels need feeding; the birds need feeding; the M15 has to be relieved from it's snow burden on it's cover. Sheesh! Won't winter ever end? Connie ________________________________________________________________ GET INTERNET ACCESS FROM JUNO! Juno offers FREE or PREMIUM Internet access for less! Join Juno today! For your FREE software, visit: http://dl.www.juno.com/get/tagj. ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: "Richard Conn" Subject: M_Boats: Old Question? Date: 09 Mar 2001 16:31:31 -0800 Since I'm fairly new to MSOG, I don't know if this has been asked before. So here goes. Recently, after watching me sail, my son gave me a copy of Rousmaniere's "The Annapolis Book of Seamanship" (3rd ed.). On page 62 there's a photo of a pretty little boat that's got to be an M17. Looks like its numbers may be: CF 8780 FN. Is her Master out there? Richard M17 "Beatrice" #613 _________________________________________________________________ Get your FREE download of MSN Explorer at http://explorer.msn.com ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: "Joe Kidd" Subject: Re: M_Boats: Old Question? Date: 09 Mar 2001 18:02:44 -0800 Richard, Welcome to the Montgomery fleet. In my "The Annapolis Book of Seamanship" (1983, so maybe its the first edition) page 62 has only sail trim drawings. My copy does have a picture on page 47 of a Montgomery being launched behind a white Ford van. The CF number identifies the boat as registered in California but I don't recognize the launch area. Joe Kidd M15 #207 "Poco A Poco" ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: Michael L Bowden Subject: M_Boats: Paging Larry Barkhuff Date: 10 Mar 2001 15:02:24 -0600 Dear Larry, Could you please contact me? I have a few M23 questions that I believe you can answer. Thanks, Michael "Bones" Bowden M17 #92 ________________________________________________________________ GET INTERNET ACCESS FROM JUNO! Juno offers FREE or PREMIUM Internet access for less! Join Juno today! For your FREE software, visit: http://dl.www.juno.com/get/tagj. ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: LBarkhuff@cs.com Subject: M_Boats: for MikeRupp Date: 10 Mar 2001 20:40:03 EST Mike, could you contact me privately, please...Larry ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: "David and Nancy Phippeny" Subject: M_Boats: Tx Sail Date: 13 Mar 2001 05:58:29 -0600 This is a multi-part message in MIME format. ------=_NextPart_000_000B_01C0AB82.A0769CC0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Sounds good Randy Unless something comes up I will see you at the park Sat. evening. Have = been out last three weekends and the lake is good with lots of water but = not in flood stage. They have raised the level from 909 to 910+. Dave M49 ------=_NextPart_000_000B_01C0AB82.A0769CC0 Content-Type: text/html; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable
Sounds good Randy
 
Unless something comes up I will see = you at the=20 park Sat. evening.  Have been out last three weekends and the lake = is good=20 with lots of water but not in flood stage.  They have raised the = level from=20 909 to 910+.
 
Dave
M49
------=_NextPart_000_000B_01C0AB82.A0769CC0-- ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: "Randy Watkins" Subject: Re: M_Boats: Tx Sail Date: 13 Mar 2001 08:15:34 -0600 sounds good Dave, looking forward to sailing with you, if it's convenient = perhaps you could leave a note on the other Mboat and let him / her know = what's going on. see ya, Randy W.=20 >>> davenanc@gvtc.com 03/13/01 05:58AM >>> Sounds good Randy Unless something comes up I will see you at the park Sat. evening. Have = been out last three weekends and the lake is good with lots of water but = not in flood stage. They have raised the level from 909 to 910+. Dave M49 ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: leyake@juno.com Subject: M_Boats: Re: List working OK? Date: 13 Mar 2001 11:42:36 -0800 testing....testing....1....2....3.... Is the list still working OK? I must still be subscribed, I'm getting a message every couple days, but they seem to refer to messages I'm not getting. ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: "Keith Diehl" Subject: Re: M_Boats: Re: List working OK? Date: 13 Mar 2001 14:46:16 -0700 I think everyone has been in the garage working on their boats! ----- Original Message ----- Sent: Tuesday, March 13, 2001 12:42 PM > testing....testing....1....2....3.... Is the list still working OK? I > must still be subscribed, I'm getting a message every couple days, but > they seem to refer to messages I'm not getting. > > ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: leyake@juno.com Subject: Re: M_Boats: Re: List working OK? Date: 13 Mar 2001 20:24:36 -0800 Thanks Keith, I guess I'm just not used to the "ebb and flow" of correspondence, yet. It's amazing how it comes in waves of 20 or more some days, and then a total drought on others. Larry Y. ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: Tom Smith Subject: RE: M_Boats: Re: List working OK? Date: 14 Mar 2001 06:28:26 -0800 Hey Larry, the cricks are rising. We ought to get together and paddle one of these weekends-it looks like it's going to be a short season. Tom -----Original Message----- Sent: Tuesday, March 13, 2001 8:25 PM Thanks Keith, I guess I'm just not used to the "ebb and flow" of correspondence, yet. It's amazing how it comes in waves of 20 or more some days, and then a total drought on others. Larry Y. ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: "Mike Frederick" Subject: M_Boats: M Boats: Survival site Date: 14 Mar 2001 10:21:52 -0600 This is a multi-part message in MIME format. ------=_NextPart_000_003A_01C0AC70.9629A480 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable I linked into this informative site and thought it might be useful to = the group: www.equipped.com Happy sailing,=20 Mike ------=_NextPart_000_003A_01C0AC70.9629A480 Content-Type: text/html; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable
I linked into this informative site and thought = it might=20 be useful to the group:
www.equipped.com
 
Happy sailing,
Mike
 
------=_NextPart_000_003A_01C0AC70.9629A480-- ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: Howard A Subject: M_Boats: Chat Time Date: 14 Mar 2001 18:35:54 -0600 For those of you who think the list has been quite, how about a chat tonight (wed) at 9 PM eastern? I've got a few questions to ask. Howard ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: Doug King Subject: M_Boats: M-15 painting, art cetera Date: 14 Mar 2001 23:38:00 -0500 Since things are a little slow right now, I'll catch everybody up on what's new on the MSOG. A couple of new items, one is the Portable Galley discussed earlier, the other consists of a few ideas and accessories you might find useful. Look under "How-To". The other is an image from Randy Watkins, a painting of his M-15. Suitable for wallpaper or a screensaver. Very nice. Bob Eeg has mentioned sending more on the new M-23, also have some photos of Richard Conn's new M-17 ("Beatrice") delivered and rigged by Bob Eeg. Hoping for some accompanying text about how Bob rigged her from Steve MacDonald ("Dances with Waves") who took notes, as well as maybe some more photos, but Steve's pretty busy these days. Also decided the site was complete enough to let the world know about it, so it's out on Yahoo, Altavista, Lycos search engines. Feel free to send it to others if you want. That's all I got. Doug ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: Rotortom@aol.com Subject: M_Boats: (no subject) Date: 15 Mar 2001 08:30:13 EST --part1_a5.12ebc801.27e21de5_boundary Content-Type: text/plain; charset="US-ASCII" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit My wife and I are taking our M-17 "Wild Hare" to San Carlos Mexico this coming Saturday. Does anyone know of an RV park close to Marina San Carlos (within walking distance)? I have been thinking of taking this trip for a couple of years now, and the excitement builds... We plan to stay in San Carlos, so should be able to do a little gunkholing in the bays up the coast. We are in Tucson visting relatives now and the boat shop called yesterday and notified my that the bruce anchor is in, so all is ready (almost). The weather guys are predicting highs in the 80's and lows in the 50's for the next 10 days! Cheers! Tom. --part1_a5.12ebc801.27e21de5_boundary Content-Type: text/html; charset="US-ASCII" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit My wife and I are taking our M-17 "Wild Hare" to San Carlos Mexico this
coming Saturday. Does anyone know of an RV park close to Marina San Carlos
(within walking distance)?
I have been thinking of taking this trip for a couple of years now, and the
excitement builds... We plan to stay in San Carlos, so should  be able to do
a little gunkholing in the bays up the coast. We are in Tucson visting
relatives now and the boat shop called yesterday and notified my that the
bruce anchor is in, so all is ready (almost).
The weather guys are predicting highs in the 80's and lows in the 50's for
the next 10 days! Cheers!  Tom. --part1_a5.12ebc801.27e21de5_boundary-- ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: Tom Smith Subject: RE: M_Boats: M-15 painting, art cetera Date: 15 Mar 2001 07:52:15 -0800 Great work Doug. I work with the webmaster closely here at work, and I know what a job it is to keep everything current and operating correctly. The site is terrific. T Tom Smith and Jane Van Winkle M15/345 -- Chukar Sandpoint, Idaho -----Original Message----- Sent: Wednesday, March 14, 2001 8:38 PM Since things are a little slow right now, I'll catch everybody up on what's new on the MSOG. A couple of new items, one is the Portable Galley discussed earlier, the other consists of a few ideas and accessories you might find useful. Look under "How-To". The other is an image from Randy Watkins, a painting of his M-15. Suitable for wallpaper or a screensaver. Very nice. Bob Eeg has mentioned sending more on the new M-23, also have some photos of Richard Conn's new M-17 ("Beatrice") delivered and rigged by Bob Eeg. Hoping for some accompanying text about how Bob rigged her from Steve MacDonald ("Dances with Waves") who took notes, as well as maybe some more photos, but Steve's pretty busy these days. Also decided the site was complete enough to let the world know about it, so it's out on Yahoo, Altavista, Lycos search engines. Feel free to send it to others if you want. That's all I got. Doug ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: Doug King Subject: RE: M_Boats: M-15 painting, art cetera Date: 15 Mar 2001 11:04:01 -0500 Thanks, Tom. Nice to feel appreciated. Doug At 07:52 AM 3/15/2001 -0800, you wrote: >Great work Doug. I work with the webmaster closely here at work, and I know >what a job it is to keep everything current and operating correctly. The >site is terrific. T > >Tom Smith and Jane Van Winkle >M15/345 -- Chukar >Sandpoint, Idaho > > > >-----Original Message----- >From: Doug King [mailto:msog@brinet.net] >Sent: Wednesday, March 14, 2001 8:38 PM >To: montgomery_boats@lists.xmission.com >Subject: M_Boats: M-15 painting, art cetera > > > >Since things are a little slow right now, I'll catch everybody up on what's >new on the MSOG. > >A couple of new items, one is the Portable Galley discussed earlier, the >other consists of a few ideas and accessories you might find useful. Look >under "How-To". > >The other is an image from Randy Watkins, a painting of his M-15. Suitable >for wallpaper or a screensaver. Very nice. > >Bob Eeg has mentioned sending more on the new M-23, also have some photos >of Richard Conn's new >M-17 ("Beatrice") delivered and rigged by Bob Eeg. Hoping for some >accompanying text about how Bob rigged her from Steve MacDonald ("Dances >with Waves") who took notes, as well as maybe some more photos, but Steve's >pretty busy these days. > >Also decided the site was complete enough to let the world know about it, >so it's out on Yahoo, Altavista, Lycos search engines. Feel free to send it >to others if you want. > >That's all I got. > >Doug > ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: Jslubliner@aol.com Subject: Re: M_Boats: (no subject) Date: 15 Mar 2001 11:07:19 EST --part1_62.cbb6aa5.27e242b7_boundary Content-Type: text/plain; charset="US-ASCII" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Tom - there are several RV parks along the road as you make your right turn at the Guaymas/San Carlos turnoff choice. Unfortunately, there are not any within what I would call "reasonable walking distance" from the marina - most are about a mile away. If you are to stay at one of these, take bicycles and a good chain/lock for same and commute to the marina. You can also take local bus transportation which goes right down the main street, stopping regularly along the way near RV places and the Marina. Lots of good places to go, up the coast from San Carlos. The largest and most popular bay is called San Pedro bay and can be an easy half-day sail from the Marina. Head up the coast towards San Pedro Island, make a right turn when abeam. Good maps and info are available anywhere in the area. If you are spending any time in Tucson regularly, there is a Tucson Sailing Club, which meets onve-monthly for formal meetings and informally on Friday nights at a local sports-pub. Several Montgomery owners involved. In addition, TSC holds a memorial weekend race in San Carlos - I am usually the only Montgomery owner who races, but there is lots of competition and it's fun to watch the larger boats fall behind you. For more info, return message to jslubliner@aol.com or TSC webmaster Rex Wheedon @ spinnaker@theriver.com Have fun in Mexico and best regards. John & Anne jslubliner@aol.com "Coyote" M17FD #69. --part1_62.cbb6aa5.27e242b7_boundary Content-Type: text/html; charset="US-ASCII" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Tom - there are several RV parks along the road as you make your right turn
at the Guaymas/San Carlos turnoff choice. Unfortunately, there are not any
within what I would call "reasonable walking distance" from the marina - most
are about a mile away. If you are to stay at one of these, take bicycles and
a good chain/lock for same and commute to the marina. You can also take local
bus transportation which goes right down the main street, stopping regularly
along the way near RV places and the Marina.

Lots of good places to go, up the coast from San Carlos. The largest and most
popular bay is called San Pedro bay and can be an easy half-day sail from the
Marina. Head up the coast towards San Pedro Island, make a right turn when
abeam. Good maps and info are available anywhere in the area.

If you are spending any time in Tucson regularly, there is a Tucson Sailing
Club, which meets onve-monthly for formal meetings and informally on Friday
nights at a local sports-pub. Several Montgomery owners involved.

In addition, TSC holds a memorial weekend race in San Carlos - I am usually
the only Montgomery owner who races, but there is lots of competition and
it's fun to watch the larger boats fall behind you. For more info, return
message to jslubliner@aol.com or TSC webmaster Rex Wheedon @
spinnaker@theriver.com

Have fun in Mexico and best regards.

John & Anne
jslubliner@aol.com
"Coyote" M17FD #69.

--part1_62.cbb6aa5.27e242b7_boundary-- ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: Jeff Grudin Subject: M_Boats: New Owner Date: 15 Mar 2001 14:05:33 -0800 Hello everyone, My name is Jeff Grudin and I am a new M23 owner. I purchased my boat about 1 week ago. She is a 1979 M23. I purchased her from the original owner and the hull is in very good condition. She sat in their yard for the last 10 years gathering dust, moss, spiders and wasps. So far I have pressure washed her and scrubbed the inside from stem to stern. I removed handfulls of dead flies and wasp nests. The good part is that everything came out clean. My next project is to replace some of the running rigging and add some new stuff to the mast. With that complete I will raise the mast. Then I will remove the oxidation and wax her. I hope to be ready by Opening Day ceremonies in the Sacramento Delta in the beginning of April. I have been sailing for about 10 years now. My first boat was a Catalina 22, then I had a Catalina 25. I really enjoyed the Cat 25, but had become very busy with work and had no time to play, so I sold her last year. I found I really didn't enjoy life without a boat so this year I hired an associate and cut my hours down to 4 days a week. This will give me a 3 day weekend every week. I hope to get lots of sailing in. I like to sail in the Delta, the water is warm, flat and we have very good winds. It is very common for them to reach 18 kts in the afternoon, and not uncommon for them to reach 40 kts. The winds blow off the SF Bay so are steady. I like to sail there because I can swim, fish and explore as well as sail. Sometimes I sail out to SF and spend the weekend in the bay . I haven't gotten adventurous enough to brave the Potato Patch and go out the gate, but maybe this year I will give it a try. If anyone is still with me, I hope to learn from the listers more about the boat, and improvements, and to swap tall tales as they come along. Thanks. -- 73 de AC6KW Jeff Grudin, DVM Web Add: http://www.vdbs.com/~grudin Ocean Animal Clinic / Cat Clinic of Santa Cruz - Santa Cruz, California Norcal QRP #1292 QRP-L #16 ARS #351 AR Qrp #131 ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: LBarkhuff@cs.com Subject: Re: M_Boats: (no subject) Date: 15 Mar 2001 19:03:25 EST Tom, regarding San Carlos, there is an RV park at the other Marina past the city of San Carlos, but not near the one in town. It is a bit of a drive, and not really as nice to be so far away. And the RV's are mostly the VERY big dollar units, at least the ones I could see. I did see some parked near the turn off going to the golf course, but I don't think it was an RV park. Stop at the bank near the center of town, and check the bulletin board. There are usually several folks there who could provide directions.... ` Also. you can take the truck route around town, and avoid the really tight quarters and the traffic thing at the border. Stop at the place on the right for insurance and permits and tourist cards. much less trouble than going through the center of town.....\ We just came back a couple weeks ago, and it was a fun place to go....have a good time.....Larry Barkhuff ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: LBarkhuff@cs.com Subject: Re: M_Boats: New Owner Date: 15 Mar 2001 19:13:20 EST Hello Jeff, and welcome. There are obviously not a lot of 23 owners, because the aren't many boats........You must have really made a fast decision when you talked to John. I am sure it will work out for you. I have a list of MOST of the 23 owners, but I did not have this one. Glad to have your vitals. There are supposed to be two more boats in the Sausalito marinas, but we have never located the owners. If you see them, try to find out how we can contact the owners if you can......Larry Barkhuff Las Vegas, M23 ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: Howard A Subject: M_Boats: Rigging Tip Date: 15 Mar 2001 18:26:05 -0600 Since it's been slow, here is something to ponder. There have been some questions about mast rake in the past, and Tom Smith provided a very good summary of how Jerry tuned the rig on his M15 last year prior to the ditch race. But in all this, the devil is in the details. Tom mentioned that Jerry likes "lots of rake", but how do you quantify that? As in "how long is a piece of string"? According to my rigging book, there is a mathematical calculation. Basically, it's a function of the P length of your mainsail. For a masthead rig (M17), the "typical rake" is from .5 to 1 degree. This correlates to .9 to 1.75 cm/meter of P (19') length. Doing the math, this means that measured at the tack point on the gooseneck, the main halyard should extend out from the tack point 2 to 4 inches. With the boat sitting level in the water, put a weight on the main halyard to let it act as a plumb bob and let it hang level at the tack point on the gooseneck. Adjust the forestay and back stay until you get this much distance. More rake means the boat will point higher and will have more weather helm. For a fractional rig (M15), the "typical rake" is 2 to 3 degrees. This translates to 3.5 to 5.25 cm/meter of P length. I don't have the P length for the M15, and can't find it anywhere, so I can't do the math for that. But that much rake for the M17 above is 8" to 12", measured at the gooseneck. That seems like a lot, and would match up with what Tom said about Jerry's ideas on rake. Again, the 2 to 3 degrees of rake is for the fractional rig M15. My whole purpose for this is to simply come up with some objective measures that can be put into use. Once we get it figured out, this should work for everyone. For those of you fortunate enough to have boats in the water, take a look at this to see if it holds up, and let the rest of us know what you find out. Regards, Howard M17, #278 ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: "David and Nancy Phippeny" Subject: M_Boats: Tx Sailing Date: 15 Mar 2001 07:50:14 -0600 This is a multi-part message in MIME format. ------=_NextPart_000_0014_01C0AD24.91FED9C0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Randy, Talked with a friend yesterday here at Canyon Lake that has 2 small = boats and a motor home. He got interested in coming on the March get = together and will talk to another guy that has a beautiful hand built = wood boat that may also join. The second gent lived aboard for years = and is a great sailor. Be interesting to talk with. I will be talking = with other small boat guys and the owner of the other 17 here. Looks = like fun. We are going to check the park out next Mon. or Tues. Dave M49 ------=_NextPart_000_0014_01C0AD24.91FED9C0 Content-Type: text/html; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable
Randy,
Talked with a friend yesterday here at = Canyon Lake=20 that has 2 small boats and a motor home.  He got interested in = coming on=20 the March get together and will talk to another guy that has a beautiful = hand=20 built wood boat that may also join.  The second gent lived aboard = for years=20 and is a great sailor.  Be interesting to talk with.  I will = be=20 talking with other small boat guys and the owner of the other 17 = here. =20 Looks like fun.  We are going to check the park out next Mon. or=20 Tues.
 
Dave M49
------=_NextPart_000_0014_01C0AD24.91FED9C0-- ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: Peter Jacobs Subject: Re: M_Boats: New Owner Date: 15 Mar 2001 17:53:50 -0800 Jeff Grudin wrote: > > Hello everyone, > > My name is Jeff Grudin and I am a new M23 owner..... Welcome aboard, Jeff. I cut down to a 4 day week a couple of years ago and am amazed at the difference it makes to our lifestyle. Good move. Sounds like you found a nice original boat. On the Montgomery owners web site there are pictures of the new house and deck molds for the soon-to-be-produced-again M23. It's at http://msog.brinet.net/index.htm Happy sailing! -Peter- -- ======================== Peter Jacobs, M17 "Enfin" Victoria BC Canada http://www.islandnet.com/~pjacobs/homepage.htm ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: "Randy Watkins" Subject: Re: M_Boats: Tx Sailing Date: 15 Mar 2001 21:08:41 -0600 hello Dave, good to hear from you. It should be a good time. I've = received some good responses and there should be a good mixture of boats. = Was it as windy in Canyon Lake today as it was here in CS? I'm off = tomorrow so going to try to go out for the day. Take care, Randy W. <<< davenanc@gvtc.com 3/15 6:51p >>> Randy, Talked with a friend yesterday here at Canyon Lake that has 2 small boats = and a motor home. He got interested in coming on the March get together = and will talk to another guy that has a beautiful hand built wood boat = that may also join. The second gent lived aboard for years and is a great = sailor. Be interesting to talk with. I will be talking with other small = boat guys and the owner of the other 17 here. Looks like fun. We are = going to check the park out next Mon. or Tues. Dave M49 =20 ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: sparsons@canby.com (Steve Parsons) Subject: M_Boats: Hondas Again Date: 15 Mar 2001 19:20:16 -0800 Apologies to start this thread again, but our annual incentive checks hit today, and I am absolutely sure that my M15 (Sojornen) needs a Honda, versus the Johnson 4hp that is currently on the motor mount. I seek your input, but to keep it from being too repetitious, feel free to answer offline. I am considering either a 2 horse, or the 5. The 5 is supposed to weigh in at 60 lbs, and I like the thought of an external tank, but 60 lbs is a lot. Have any of you put a 4 stroke 5 horse on a M15? If so, any regrets. Let's rehash the short versus long shaft, too. Your thoughts are appreciated. Regards, Steve ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: "Joe Kidd" Subject: Re: M_Boats: Hondas Again Date: 15 Mar 2001 19:49:28 -0800 Steve, No contest! IMHO you should go with the Honda 2 hp. A 5 hp outboard is much too heavy and too powerful to hang on the M15 transom. If you have (or get) an adjustable motormount, the Honda 2hp short-shaft works great. Joe Kidd M15 #207 "Poco A Poco" ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: "Randy Watkins" Subject: Re: M_Boats: Hondas Again Date: 15 Mar 2001 21:56:11 -0600 Steve, I agree with Joe. The Honda 2 pushes the boat properly and the = weight is slightly under 30 lbs. I did go with a l/s and changed out the = motor bracket to the adjustable type. It's well worth the effort. I = wouldn't trailer the boat with the motor hanging, it's asking for trouble. My 2 cents worth. Randy W.=20 <<< jk@yosemite.net 3/15 9:47p >>> Steve, No contest! IMHO you should go with the Honda 2 hp. A 5 hp outboard = is much too heavy and too powerful to hang on the M15 transom. If you have = (or get) an adjustable motormount, the Honda 2hp short-shaft works great. Joe Kidd M15 #207 "Poco A Poco" =20 ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: Rotortom@aol.com Subject: M_Boats: (no subject) Date: 16 Mar 2001 07:26:23 EST --part1_b2.12a2e61d.27e3606f_boundary Content-Type: text/plain; charset="US-ASCII" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Thanks for the Info on San Carlos. The anticipation grows. The Bruce anchor magically transformed into a Simpson-Lawrence Claw in the period between ordering and receiving. Time is short so will hope for the best. Tom --part1_b2.12a2e61d.27e3606f_boundary Content-Type: text/html; charset="US-ASCII" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Thanks for the Info on San Carlos. The anticipation grows.
The Bruce anchor magically transformed into a Simpson-Lawrence Claw in the
period between ordering and receiving. Time is short so will hope for the
best.
Tom --part1_b2.12a2e61d.27e3606f_boundary-- ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: "David and Nancy Phippeny" Subject: M_Boats: Wind Date: 16 Mar 2001 07:42:36 -0600 This is a multi-part message in MIME format. ------=_NextPart_000_002A_01C0ADEC.ABA9E860 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Randy Very windy yesterday. One customer went out early and lake was flat. By = 10 am white caps and very rough. Gusts over 30. It can change in a = hurry this time of year. Dave M49 ------=_NextPart_000_002A_01C0ADEC.ABA9E860 Content-Type: text/html; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable
Randy
 
Very windy yesterday. One customer went = out early=20 and lake was flat.  By 10 am white caps and very rough.  Gusts = over=20 30.  It can change in a hurry this time of year.
 
Dave
M49
------=_NextPart_000_002A_01C0ADEC.ABA9E860-- ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: Don Olson Subject: Re: M_Boats: Hondas Again Date: 16 Mar 2001 08:16:22 -0700 Hi Steve, Prior to getting my M15 I had a 17 ft Drifter( a sailboat made locally). It had a 6hp Johnson(57lbs) with an external tank. While it worked just fine, the external tank was just one more piece of equipment to deal with. Just keeping fresh gas in it was a problem as I mainly used the motor to just get in and out of the docking area. The tank also took up space in the boat. While waiting for the M15 to be built I searched the archives on this list and thanks to the information provided by the kind folks here I bought a Honda 2hp long shaft. Prior to the selling the Drifter I took it out one last time and used the Honda 2hp on it. I was surprised as to how well it did. In fact it seemed to move it almost as well as the 6hp Johnson. Now that I have Puffer, I am very happy with the Honda. I carry an extra gallon of gas I store in the cockpit locker and have yet to use it. We all sail in different water with different circumstances so what works for me on Lake Pleasant may not work for you but unless you are fighting heavy currents and plan to motor a whole lot it would be my opinion that a larger motor with an external tank would be overkill. The best of luck on whatever you decide. Don Olson M15 Puffer Phoenix, Az ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: "Morris, Giles" Subject: RE: M_Boats: Hondas Again Date: 16 Mar 2001 09:55:55 -0600 >Have any of you put a 4 stroke 5 horse on a M15? If so, any regrets? I have a Honda 5HP on Umiaq. I chose the 5HP because, at that time, there was no option of a clutch on the 2HP. It works well, and the weight is only a problem for me when putting it on the boat -- if someone offers to help then they get the job of hauling the motor out of the trunk and fitting it. Having said that, I intend to sell the 5HP once the motor-buying season arrives. The reason is that I've bought a clutched Honda 2HP. If the M-15 were the only application I would have kept the 5, but this motor will also be used for Dolphin's dinghy. The 2HP is much (MUCH!) lighter, and the 5HP is much more powerful than needed. > I like the thought of an external tank Me, too. But it's one more thing to fall over if you're using it as a dink motor, and one more thing to hand down. So the internal tank wins for me. To make it easier to fill, I've bought an external fuel tank and hose assembly, so all I have to do is put the hose into the motor's tank and squeeze the bulb for a while. > Let's rehash the short versus long shaft, too. Easy decision for me. Because I use the motor on a dink, the standard shaft is best. If I were using it only on the M-15 I might consider a long shaft, since it's easy to pull the exhaust out of the water by standing on the bow. (This isn't such a problem with the 2HP since only the exhaust is water-cooled). Giles Morris Arlington VA Vancouver 25 #002 "Dolphin" Montgomery 15 #264 "Umiaq" Sundry kayaks ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: Tim McInerney Subject: M_Boats: Outboards Date: 16 Mar 2001 11:28:01 -0500 Thanks to everyone for responding to my quandary about a new outboard for the M-17. The consensus seems to be that 92+ lbs. (a Honda 9.9) is too much for the 17. Bob Eegs opinion was amongst that and naturally carries added weight (thanks Bob). So here's my dilemna -- I was eying the Honda 9.9 because I really need as much power as possible to fight 3.5+ knot ebb tides in a calm, on the Hudson River here in Manhattan. Which one do I go with in a lower weight class?: Honda BF5 Yamaha 8 Yamaha F6 Johnson 8 Merc/Mar 8 Suzuki 6 Cylinders 1 2 2 2 2 2 Stroke 4 2 4 2 2 2 Weight 61lbs 60lbs 83lbs 56lbs 74lbs 60lbs Horsepower 5 8 6 8 8 6 Displacement 127cc 165cc 197cc 164cc 210cc 166cc Bore 60x45mm 50x42 49x43 54x45 50x42mm Open Throttle RPM 4,5-5,000 4,5-5,000 4,5-5,000 5-6,000 4,5-5,000 4,5-5,000 Cooling Water Temp & Press Temp&Press Water Water Gear Ratio 2.1:1 2.08:1 2:08:1 2.23:1 2.0:1 1.92:1 Alt. amps 3 6 6 4 6 2 Tim McInerney "Orion" M-17 #387 New York City -- home of the 3.5+ knot Hudson River ebb tide ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: Tim McInerney Subject: M_Boats: Readable outboard comparison specifications Date: 16 Mar 2001 11:35:46 -0500 This message is in MIME format. Since your mail reader does not understand this format, some or all of this message may not be legible. ------_=_NextPart_000_01C0AE37.26B3EB90 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Sorry everyone: Here is a more readable version of the outboard comparison table: <> Tim ------_=_NextPart_000_01C0AE37.26B3EB90 Content-Type: application/msword; name="Outboard comparison sepcs..doc" Content-Transfer-Encoding: base64 Content-Disposition: attachment; filename="Outboard comparison sepcs..doc" 0M8R4KGxGuEAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAPgADAP7/CQAGAAAAAAAAAAAAAAABAAAAIQAAAAAAAAAA EAAAIwAAAAEAAAD+////AAAAACAAAAD///////////////////////////////////////////// //////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////// //////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////// //////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////// //////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////// 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//////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////// //////////////////////////8BAP7/AwoAAP////8GCQIAAAAAAMAAAAAAAABGGAAAAE1pY3Jv c29mdCBXb3JkIERvY3VtZW50AAoAAABNU1dvcmREb2MAEAAAAFdvcmQuRG9jdW1lbnQuOAD0ObJx AAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAA AAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAA AAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAA AAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAA AAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAA AAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAA AAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAA AAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAA== ------_=_NextPart_000_01C0AE37.26B3EB90-- ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: "Morris, Giles" Subject: RE: M_Boats: Readable outboard comparison specifications Date: 16 Mar 2001 10:40:04 -0600 >Here is a more readable version of the outboard comparison table Nothing better than spending somebody else's money... Personal opinions and random thoughts. I would rule out the 2-strokes because of noise, smell, fuel/oil mixing, the likelihood of outright bans in some places and general unpleasantness. I know that they have advantages, but every time that I've owned a 2-stroke motor I've promised myself that I won't own another (and this time I MEAN it!). I wouldn't worry too much about the number of cylinders. Comparing the Honda BF5 with a Johnson 4HP twin cylinder 2-stroke, the vibration is different rather than greater. I wouldn't worry about the alternator output. Big batteries and/or a solar panel can take care of any variations there. Honda is expensive, but nice. Giles ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: rc2222@postoffice.pacbell.net Subject: Re: M_Boats: Outboards Date: 16 Mar 2001 10:05:56 -0800 Tim: Is this the butterfly ballot? Rich Cottrell Tim McInerney wrote: > Thanks to everyone for responding to my quandary about a new outboard for > the M-17. The consensus seems to be that 92+ lbs. (a Honda 9.9) is too much > for the 17. Bob Eegs opinion was amongst that and naturally carries added > weight (thanks Bob). > > So here's my dilemna -- I was eying the Honda 9.9 because I really need as > much power as possible to fight 3.5+ knot ebb tides in a calm, on the > Hudson River here in Manhattan. Which one do I go with in a lower weight > class?: > > Honda BF5 Yamaha 8 Yamaha F6 > Johnson 8 Merc/Mar 8 Suzuki 6 > Cylinders 1 2 2 2 > 2 2 > Stroke 4 2 4 2 > 2 2 > Weight 61lbs 60lbs 83lbs > 56lbs 74lbs 60lbs > Horsepower 5 8 6 8 > 8 6 > Displacement 127cc 165cc 197cc > 164cc 210cc 166cc > Bore 60x45mm 50x42 49x43 > 54x45 50x42mm > Open Throttle RPM 4,5-5,000 4,5-5,000 4,5-5,000 > 5-6,000 4,5-5,000 4,5-5,000 > Cooling Water Temp & Press > Temp&Press Water Water > Gear Ratio 2.1:1 2.08:1 2:08:1 > 2.23:1 2.0:1 1.92:1 > Alt. amps 3 6 6 4 > 6 2 > > Tim McInerney > "Orion" M-17 #387 > New York City -- home of the 3.5+ knot Hudson River ebb tide ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: Tim McInerney Subject: RE: M_Boats: Outboards Date: 16 Mar 2001 14:07:49 -0500 Yeah! Watch out for the dimpled chad.! -----Original Message----- [mailto:rc2222@postoffice.pacbell.net] Sent: Friday, March 16, 2001 1:06 PM Tim: Is this the butterfly ballot? Rich Cottrell Tim McInerney wrote: > Thanks to everyone for responding to my quandary about a new outboard for > the M-17. The consensus seems to be that 92+ lbs. (a Honda 9.9) is too much > for the 17. Bob Eegs opinion was amongst that and naturally carries added > weight (thanks Bob). > > So here's my dilemna -- I was eying the Honda 9.9 because I really need as > much power as possible to fight 3.5+ knot ebb tides in a calm, on the > Hudson River here in Manhattan. Which one do I go with in a lower weight > class?: > > Honda BF5 Yamaha 8 Yamaha F6 > Johnson 8 Merc/Mar 8 Suzuki 6 > Cylinders 1 2 2 2 > 2 2 > Stroke 4 2 4 2 > 2 2 > Weight 61lbs 60lbs 83lbs > 56lbs 74lbs 60lbs > Horsepower 5 8 6 8 > 8 6 > Displacement 127cc 165cc 197cc > 164cc 210cc 166cc > Bore 60x45mm 50x42 49x43 > 54x45 50x42mm > Open Throttle RPM 4,5-5,000 4,5-5,000 4,5-5,000 > 5-6,000 4,5-5,000 4,5-5,000 > Cooling Water Temp & Press > Temp&Press Water Water > Gear Ratio 2.1:1 2.08:1 2:08:1 > 2.23:1 2.0:1 1.92:1 > Alt. amps 3 6 6 4 > 6 2 > > Tim McInerney > "Orion" M-17 #387 > New York City -- home of the 3.5+ knot Hudson River ebb tide ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: "Russ Browne" Subject: RE: M_Boats: Outboards Date: 16 Mar 2001 14:39:29 -0500 Tim, if all motors have good dealer/service support, then Honda would be my choice. I have a 1998 5HP 4-stroke engine on my ComPac 19, which weighs about 500# more than your Montgomery, and the 5 is fine. I sometimes wish for more, but then reality sets in and I realize that I couldn't lift a stronger motor and don't want Windsong to squat down by the stern. The 5 moves her at hull speed in chop and current, though I do not face a 3.5kt current. If I went to a larger engine, it would be a Mercury 4/5/6 HP 4-stroke engine ( all have the same block and weight, so the 6 would win), and Mercury is now handled by West Marine in addition to a strong dealer network. Russ Browne "Windsong" 1990 ComPac 19 #530 Lake St Clair Clinton Township, MI _________________________________________________________________ Get your FREE download of MSN Explorer at http://explorer.msn.com ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: leyake@juno.com Subject: Re: M_Boats: Roller furling and Genoa Date: 16 Mar 2001 11:40:52 -0800 Glad to see the list has come back to life. I just thought I would update everyone on my furler and genoa search, and ask for any additional suggestions before the deal is done. Due to the overwhelming support for the CDI unit, I have decided to go with the furler 2 (the one with the ball-bearings). My sailmaker, Yeager Sails in Spokane, Wa., says he can get it for me at a substantial discount, too. As for the genoa, I'm planning on a 150, 5 oz. fabric, bi-radial cut, with the foam luff-tape, and 3.9oz. UV cover. I was leaning toward the tan-bark, but upon seeing a sample, decided it was darker than I preferred. I like the Egyptian cotton, but it doesn't come in the balanced weave preferred for a radial cut sail. So, it looks like white is it. (The other colors only come in 3.9oz. and that seems too light for an all purpose sail.) By the way, I took printouts of several of the E-mails and info on the web site on this subject to the sailmaker, and he is VERY impressed with the resources we have at our fingertips. Keep up the good work! Larry Yake M17 #200 ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: Michael L Bowden Subject: Re: M_Boats: New Owner Date: 16 Mar 2001 16:20:08 -0600 Hi Jeff, Looking forward to hearing more about your M23 and your sailing adventures. Keep us posted. Welcome. Bones M17 #92 Mpls ________________________________________________________________ GET INTERNET ACCESS FROM JUNO! Juno offers FREE or PREMIUM Internet access for less! Join Juno today! For your FREE software, visit: http://dl.www.juno.com/get/tagj. ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: Michael L Bowden Subject: M_Boats: Trailrite winch Date: 16 Mar 2001 16:18:16 -0600 Hi Listers, I have a question, I have the original Trailrite trailer for my M17, and the winch is mounted on top of the front pedistal. I have always had problems getting the bow eye to lift above the "V" cushion on the front support. Well, lately I've seen some pics of M17s on their trailers, and the winch is upside down, so the cable and bow eye are below the "V" cushion. Is mine mounted wrong? The winch has been replaced by a previous owner. This could be the reason of loading difficulty. Think spring. Bones M17 #92 ________________________________________________________________ GET INTERNET ACCESS FROM JUNO! Juno offers FREE or PREMIUM Internet access for less! Join Juno today! For your FREE software, visit: http://dl.www.juno.com/get/tagj. ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: rc2222@postoffice.pacbell.net Subject: M_Boats: Sport-a-seat Date: 16 Mar 2001 14:41:51 -0800 Hi all Montgomery sailors: I saw an ad in Wooden boat magazine recently for a portable seat suitable for sailboat cockpit seating. It's made of sunbrella and allows you to lean back in real comfort while sailing or at anchor. I called the company and asked if they thought it would work on less than 18" wide bench seat. They said yes so I ordered one and used it this past week while spending a couple days sailing on Woodward Reservoir in Oakdale, Ca. It proved to be as comfortable as I had hoped. I'm looking forward to using it again, soon! Their website is " sportaseat.com." . They are also now sold through West Marine. The cost is somewhere $ 80-100. Rich Cottrell M15 "Really" ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: Tom Smith Subject: RE: M_Boats: Sport-a-seat Date: 16 Mar 2001 14:39:26 -0800 My Crazy Creek chair works great, and I think it was only 30 bucks or so. But I've seen the chair in Woodenboat, and they're quite handsome. Tom Smith LineSoft Corporation Phone: 509-928-1707 ext. 248 Fax: 509-928-2581 E-mail: tsmith@linesoft.com Website: www.linesoft.com -----Original Message----- [mailto:rc2222@postoffice.pacbell.net] Sent: Friday, March 16, 2001 2:42 PM Hi all Montgomery sailors: I saw an ad in Wooden boat magazine recently for a portable seat suitable for sailboat cockpit seating. It's made of sunbrella and allows you to lean back in real comfort while sailing or at anchor. I called the company and asked if they thought it would work on less than 18" wide bench seat. They said yes so I ordered one and used it this past week while spending a couple days sailing on Woodward Reservoir in Oakdale, Ca. It proved to be as comfortable as I had hoped. I'm looking forward to using it again, soon! Their website is " sportaseat.com." . They are also now sold through West Marine. The cost is somewhere $ 80-100. Rich Cottrell M15 "Really" ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: Rotortom@aol.com Subject: Re: M_Boats: Outboards Date: 16 Mar 2001 20:22:16 EST --part1_8a.3ca9b43.27e41648_boundary Content-Type: text/plain; charset="US-ASCII" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit I have a 5hp honda on my M-17, and with the stock propeller (190mm) it does not reach full rpm. I purchased the only optional prop, a 170mm, and it allows the motor to come closer to it's optimal rpm. It will drive the boat to about 6 knots, which is probably the hull speed. (any comments on that speed?) Tom Woodworth M-17 "Wild Hare" --part1_8a.3ca9b43.27e41648_boundary Content-Type: text/html; charset="US-ASCII" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit I have a 5hp honda on my M-17, and with the stock propeller (190mm) it does
not reach full rpm. I purchased the only optional prop, a 170mm, and it
allows the motor to come closer to it's optimal rpm. It will drive the boat
to about 6 knots, which is probably the hull speed. (any comments on that
speed?)
Tom Woodworth
M-17 "Wild Hare" --part1_8a.3ca9b43.27e41648_boundary-- ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: "Jerry Lehner" Subject: Re: M_Boats: Trailrite winch Date: 16 Mar 2001 17:47:48 -0800 Michael I too have had the same problem and seen the pics with the winch lower on the post beneath the "V" cushion. We can't just reposition the winch on the post below the cushion because the boweye is still above the cushion when pulled up. I think we will have to have the post extended so that the cushion is above the boweye, then we can reposition the winch. My M17 is #39. Maybe they hadn't foreseen this situation but rectified it later. Jerry >From: Michael L Bowden >Reply-To: montgomery_boats@lists.xmission.com >To: montgomery_boats@lists.xmission.com >CC: montgomery_boats@lists.xmission.com >Subject: M_Boats: Trailrite winch >Date: Fri, 16 Mar 2001 16:18:16 -0600 > >Hi Listers, > >I have a question, I have the original Trailrite trailer for my M17, and >the winch is mounted on top of the front pedistal. I have always had >problems getting the bow eye to lift above the "V" cushion on the front >support. Well, lately I've seen some pics of M17s on their trailers, and >the winch is upside down, so the cable and bow eye are below the "V" >cushion. Is mine mounted wrong? The winch has been replaced by a previous >owner. >This could be the reason of loading difficulty. > >Think spring. > >Bones M17 #92 >________________________________________________________________ >GET INTERNET ACCESS FROM JUNO! >Juno offers FREE or PREMIUM Internet access for less! >Join Juno today! For your FREE software, visit: >http://dl.www.juno.com/get/tagj. > _________________________________________________________________ Get your FREE download of MSN Explorer at http://explorer.msn.com ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: Wcpritchett@aol.com Subject: Re: M_Boats: Hondas Again - Keep the Johnson Date: 16 Mar 2001 21:11:28 EST Steve, Here's my 02 on the motor. Keep the 4 Johnson if it is a good runner. That 4 is one of the best for reliability and parts are easy to find. They have made that power head (was a 3hp) since the 50s. The Johnson is light weight, more power than a 4 stroke 2hp and almost same as the 4 stroke 5hp. If you will need to refuel in choppy water the internal tank will be difficult to fill without spilling. If you need cruising range the external tank is best for 2 or 4 stroke but the 4 stroke will give twice the range as the 2 stroke. Having said that, I have a 50hp Mariner 4 stroke bought new in Dec 96. It is a sweet runner but I would go back to a 2 stroke next time. A 2 stroke 70 cost the same and I wouldn't have to deal with changing oil, adjusting valves or the timing belt change. It is really a hassle to me to do this. Fuel milage is VERY good and range is fantastic...but I really paid for that up front with the high price of the engine anyway so fuel cost is a wash. So, the ONLY reason I will do another 4 stroke is where I MUST have long range cruising where fuel isn't available. There you go. My 02. Save that incentive check and do a vacation with it! Regards, Bill in Florida (hey, I counted the "Johnson" chads and they won) ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: sparsons@canby.com (Steve Parsons) Subject: Re: M_Boats: Outboards Date: 16 Mar 2001 19:51:57 -0800 Nope, But my name is really Chad.... >Tim: > >Is this the butterfly ballot? > >Rich Cottrell > >Tim McInerney wrote: > >> Thanks to everyone for responding to my quandary about a new outboard for >> the M-17. The consensus seems to be that 92+ lbs. (a Honda 9.9) is too much >> for the 17. Bob Eegs opinion was amongst that and naturally carries added >> weight (thanks Bob). >> >> So here's my dilemna -- I was eying the Honda 9.9 because I really need as >> much power as possible to fight 3.5+ knot ebb tides in a calm, on the >> Hudson River here in Manhattan. Which one do I go with in a lower weight >> class?: >> >> Honda BF5 Yamaha 8 Yamaha F6 >> Johnson 8 Merc/Mar 8 Suzuki 6 >> Cylinders 1 2 2 2 >> 2 2 >> Stroke 4 2 4 2 >> 2 2 >> Weight 61lbs 60lbs 83lbs >> 56lbs 74lbs 60lbs >> Horsepower 5 8 6 8 >> 8 6 >> Displacement 127cc 165cc 197cc >> 164cc 210cc 166cc >> Bore 60x45mm 50x42 49x43 >> 54x45 50x42mm >> Open Throttle RPM 4,5-5,000 4,5-5,000 4,5-5,000 >> 5-6,000 4,5-5,000 4,5-5,000 >> Cooling Water Temp & Press >> Temp&Press Water Water >> Gear Ratio 2.1:1 2.08:1 2:08:1 >> 2.23:1 2.0:1 1.92:1 >> Alt. amps 3 6 6 4 >> 6 2 >> >> Tim McInerney >> "Orion" M-17 #387 >> New York City -- home of the 3.5+ knot Hudson River ebb tide > > > > ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: Peter Jacobs Subject: Re: M_Boats: Trailrite winch Date: 16 Mar 2001 21:18:20 -0800 Michael L Bowden wrote: > > Hi Listers, > > I have a question, I have the original Trailrite trailer for my M17, and > the winch is mounted on top of the front pedistal. .......... Hi Michael, When I rebuilt that front part of my trailer I extended the winch post, flipped the top channel mount that also holds the bow roller and mounted the winch underneath. I had to drill a couple of holes in the channel to let water drain out. I got the idea from M17 trailer pictures on NorSea's website. It works really well. No more struggling to get the bow eye up over the roller. When I retreive Enfin the last few cranks of the winch actually lift the bow up into the rubber V-block. I'll try to find a good picturea nd scan it for you on Monday. -Peter- -- ======================== Peter Jacobs M17 "Enfin" Victoria BC Canada http://www.islandnet.com/~pjacobs/homepage.htm ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: mikit Subject: Re: M_Boats: Trailrite winch Date: 17 Mar 2001 01:41:03 -0800 Bones, My configuration has the winch below the cushion roller. That puts the bow eye about 6 in. below the cushion roller when the boat is loaded on it's trailer. It works great in this position, loading could not be easier. I have a later model M-17 so I am not sure where the bow eye position is on the original design. I have also modified the pedistal to allow the motor to be mounted here while traveling. Also added an extendable square tubing devise with V cushion that supports the mast when traveling. In use it extends up through the pulpit and holds the mast slightly off of the pulpit. The motor mount is extremely functional. The extension also works well, is probably not needed, but I had some extra steel and it's my nature to complicate every project as much as possible. Finally broke down and purchased a digital camera this winter, I will take some pictures this weekend and send them your way if you like. Mike M-17 #369 >Hi Listers, > >I have a question, I have the original Trailrite trailer for my M17, and >the winch is mounted on top of the front pedistal. I have always had >problems getting the bow eye to lift above the "V" cushion on the front >support. Well, lately I've seen some pics of M17s on their trailers, and >the winch is upside down, so the cable and bow eye are below the "V" >cushion. Is mine mounted wrong? The winch has been replaced by a previous >owner. >This could be the reason of loading difficulty. > >Think spring. > >Bones M17 #92 >________________________________________________________________ >GET INTERNET ACCESS FROM JUNO! >Juno offers FREE or PREMIUM Internet access for less! >Join Juno today! For your FREE software, visit: >http://dl.www.juno.com/get/tagj. ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: "Bill Riker" Subject: RE: M_Boats: Hondas Again Date: 17 Mar 2001 07:06:21 -0500 I agree with Don - an external tank isn't necessary for the 2. The little guy will run for 2 to 4 hours on the 1 litre internal tank, and you can store a 1 gallon can in the short cockpit locker (if it's the right shape, thus keeping any odors out of the cabin). So if you head out with a full integral tank plus a spare gallon, you have enough for 10 to 20 hours of motoring. That's 20 hours on flat water 10 hours in the worst of conditions; headwinds and waves. Filling the internal tank in a seaway isn't fun, but can be done. My to do list includes getting a squeeze bulb fuel line to clean up this process. Bill Riker M-15 #184 Storm Petrel -----Original Message----- [mailto:owner-montgomery_boats@lists.xmission.com]On Behalf Of Steve Parsons Sent: March 15, 2001 10:20 PM Apologies to start this thread again, but our annual incentive checks hit today, and I am absolutely sure that my M15 (Sojornen) needs a Honda, versus the Johnson 4hp that is currently on the motor mount. I seek your input, but to keep it from being too repetitious, feel free to answer offline. I am considering either a 2 horse, or the 5. The 5 is supposed to weigh in at 60 lbs, and I like the thought of an external tank, but 60 lbs is a lot. Have any of you put a 4 stroke 5 horse on a M15? If so, any regrets. Let's rehash the short versus long shaft, too. Your thoughts are appreciated. Regards, Steve ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: Fritz Stuneck Subject: RE: M_Boats: Hondas Again Date: 17 Mar 2001 07:10:08 -0600 Anyone have problems with the decals coming off the case of the Honda 2hp? After all, it is a container for gasoline and spills seem to start washing the decals off almost immediately. Any thoughts? ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: Rotortom@aol.com Subject: Re: M_Boats: Hondas Again Date: 17 Mar 2001 08:12:55 EST --part1_18.a493f1f.27e4bcd7_boundary Content-Type: text/plain; charset="US-ASCII" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Leave them off! No need in tempting sticky-fingered theives with a sign indicating that this is a good deal for them. I have taken all of them off of my 5hp. --part1_18.a493f1f.27e4bcd7_boundary Content-Type: text/html; charset="US-ASCII" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Leave them off! No need in tempting sticky-fingered theives with a sign
indicating that this is a good deal for them. I have taken all of them off of
my 5hp. --part1_18.a493f1f.27e4bcd7_boundary-- ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: Wcpritchett@aol.com Subject: Re: M_Boats: Hondas Again Date: 17 Mar 2001 09:06:43 EST Bill R., At one time I thought about modifying an engine tank filler cap with a hose attachment to a squeeze bulb tank. Never did it but it would be easy and keep the spills down while refueling in rough going. I had a 3 Johnson with internal tank catch on fire once after spilling fuel all over from a rough water refuel. I wiped it down and thought the gas was gone but it went down into all the cowl joints and lit up on the first pull. This really turned me off from refueling when you can't keep it from sloshing out all over the engine. Also, when doing short runs and not needing a lot of fuel, I put gas in quart size oil containers with the screw on lid. They are easy to handle with one hand while you're hanging off the transom and give somewhat of a measuring tool for filling. The small size will store anywhere. Bill P. ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: Howard A Subject: Re: M_Boats: Hondas Again Date: 17 Mar 2001 08:37:22 -0600 Wcpritchett@aol.com wrote: > Also, when doing short runs and not needing a lot of fuel, I put gas in quart > size oil containers with the screw on lid. They are easy to handle with one > hand while you're hanging off the transom and give somewhat of a measuring > tool for filling. The small size will store anywhere. > > Bill P. As an alternative to used oil containers, we use these fuel bottles for backpacking: http://www.campmor.com/webapp/commerce/command/ProductDisplay?prmenbr=226&prrfnbr=13723 They are tough and don't leak. They should be available at almost any camping store, and are approved for fuel storage. They come in pints and quarts. The spout is made to fit the fill opening on a small backpacking stove, and is vented. The spout stores inside the neck of the bottle. To use it, you pull it out and invert it. Howard M17, #278 ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: Don Olson Subject: Re: M_Boats: Sport-a-seat Date: 17 Mar 2001 07:41:40 -0700 Hi Rich, I agree with you about the sport-a-seat being comfortable. I purchased one a couple of months ago from Sailnet and the fact that the back is adjustable makes the seat very versatile. Practical Sailor rated them no 1 in their test a couple of years ago( I don't know the issue) Recently I received a catalog from an outfit called "Improvements". Their site is www.improvementscatalog.com.( I don't know how to list the site so it can be "clicked") Anyway, they have something called a posture chair which looks just like the sport-a-seat, including the adjustable back, and the price is $40. If anyone is interested it is listed under Comfort/weatherization on page five in their on-line catalog. I have no idea if the chair is workable in "sea" conditions but it might be worth considering. Don Olson M15 Puffer Phoenix, Az ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: Jeff Grudin Subject: M_Boats: M23 Questions Date: 17 Mar 2001 11:26:53 -0800 Unfortunately, my new M23 didn't come with instructions and the previous owner didn't remember alot about the boat. Can anyone describe the factory mast raising system? I have the cables that are involved, but I do not know where they are supposed to attach or what the mast raising procedure is. I also would like to replace the halyards. The ones that are on there are swaged wire and rope. I would like to go to all rope halyards. Can I replace these old halyards wirh 5/16 rope halyards without changing the sheaves in the mast head? Can I change the sheaves without grinding out the mast head to allow them to fit? Thanks. -- 73 de AC6KW Jeff Grudin, DVM Web Add: http://www.vdbs.com/~grudin Ocean Animal Clinic / Cat Clinic of Santa Cruz - Santa Cruz, California Norcal QRP #1292 QRP-L #16 ARS #351 AR Qrp #131 ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: "Theo Petron" Subject: Re: M_Boats: M23 Questions Date: 17 Mar 2001 13:23:19 -0600 Jeff, If it's like mine, the cables are strung from the end of the boom to "D" rings or similar on the outside shrouds. Boom needs to be perpendicular to the mast. This occurs via the topping lift. (In essence, the toping lift is acting as a temporary backstay) Using the main halyard, lift up the mast (make sure the forestay is attached!!) When it's up, attach the back stay and you're set. The only thing you may find beneficial is a mate on the bow to initially hold up the mast, but I can usually do this procedure myself with lots of jaws dropped by people around me. Good Luck! Theo Petron "Sails Increase" M23 #026 Jeff Grudin wrote: > Unfortunately, my new M23 didn't come with instructions and the previous > owner didn't remember alot about the boat. > > Can anyone describe the factory mast raising system? I have the cables > that are involved, but I do not know where they are supposed to attach > or what the mast raising procedure is. > > I also would like to replace the halyards. The ones that are on there > are swaged wire and rope. I would like to go to all rope halyards. Can > I replace these old halyards wirh 5/16 rope halyards without changing > the sheaves in the mast head? Can I change the sheaves without grinding > out the mast head to allow them to fit? > > Thanks. > -- > > 73 de AC6KW > Jeff Grudin, DVM Web Add: http://www.vdbs.com/~grudin > Ocean Animal Clinic / Cat Clinic of Santa Cruz - Santa Cruz, California > Norcal QRP #1292 QRP-L #16 ARS #351 AR Qrp #131 ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: Jeff Grudin Subject: Re: M_Boats: M23 Questions Date: 17 Mar 2001 12:17:09 -0800 Theo, Thanks for the prompt response. That is what I was thinking should happen, but I wasn't sure. There was a 1/4 inch line attached from the top of the mast head to the end of the boom. Is this the topping lift? It was a bit strange becasue there was no shackle or such to remove it while the sail is on. The main halyard is attached to the center of the boom. Is this where you pull from? I was thinking it might damage the boom. Thanks again. -- 73 de AC6KW Jeff Grudin, DVM Web Add: http://www.vdbs.com/~grudin Ocean Animal Clinic / Cat Clinic of Santa Cruz - Santa Cruz, California Norcal QRP #1292 QRP-L #16 ARS #351 AR Qrp #131 ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: AirEvacLen@aol.com Subject: Re: M_Boats: M23 Questions Date: 17 Mar 2001 15:49:36 EST In a message dated 03/17/2001 12:58:09 PM US Mountain Standard Time, grudin@vdbs.com writes: << The main halyard is attached to the center of the boom. Is this where you pull from? I was thinking it might damage the boom. >> Jeff Unlike yours and Larrys' boat.........My mainsheet is attached to the boom........after fastening it to the traveler you use it to raise the mast. It does help if you can get the mast up a few feet at the start of it all........but not an absolute necessity.........As for the topping lift.........I have a snap shackle on the free end. It attaches to the tang on the end of the boom when raising the mast. You should have a couple of small cables which attach to the end ( and side ) of the boom for athwart ship stability. These also attach to the tangs on the lower shrouds just above the turnbuckle. When you have the whole thing assembled, it looks like a right triangle. The topping lift is the hypotenuse, the boom is the base. It's a bit scary the first time you do it alone..........or even with a mate....heheh Have fun.......... Lenny ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: LBarkhuff@cs.com Subject: Re: M_Boats: M23 Questions Date: 17 Mar 2001 19:24:44 EST Re the 23 mast raising, I took some turnbuckles and attached them at the boom end of the wires. With these, I can make the wires more loose or tight, and the mast comes up straight with no leaning to the side. I am also working on another idea....I have attached a couple of fairly strong (medium) springs to lines. The springs are attached to the transom, and then a spare mainsheet block goes to the end of the boom.....stretch the springs, and then lift the mast. The spring loading makes the mast sort of "pop" up by using the stored energy in the springs....works sort of cool, and is pretty easy....Do you approve, Dick??? Larry ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: LBarkhuff@cs.com Subject: Re: M_Boats: M23 Questions Date: 17 Mar 2001 19:32:55 EST Lenny aren't all the mainsheets attached to the center of the boom.....I have never seen any other location... Also, the thing is like back to back right triangles, with the boom in the center, or some such thing..... Leaving Tuesday for a sail in the Bahamas,,,,,,40 foot nauticat....and warm water i hope.....Larry ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: AirEvacLen@aol.com Subject: Re: M_Boats: M23 Questions Date: 17 Mar 2001 19:42:53 EST In a message dated 03/17/2001 5:33:19 PM US Mountain Standard Time, LBarkhuff@cs.com writes: << Lenny aren't all the mainsheets attached to the center of the boom.....I have never seen any other location... >> Yup........Was wondering why the main halyard would be attached there...........obviously a typo.......heheh.........Lucky you on the 40 footer.........: ) Lenny ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: Richard Lane Subject: Re: M_Boats: M23 Questions Date: 17 Mar 2001 17:58:44 -0800 Yes it sounds like a neat idea, especially for aging backs! Enjoy the warm water in the Bahamas. Dick LBarkhuff@cs.com wrote: > Re the 23 mast raising, I took some turnbuckles and attached them at > the boom end of the wires. With these, I can make the wires more loose or > tight, and the mast comes up straight with no leaning to the side. > > I am also working on another idea....I have attached a couple of > fairly strong (medium) springs to lines. The springs are attached to the > transom, and then a spare mainsheet block goes to the end of the > boom.....stretch the springs, and then lift the mast. The spring loading > makes the mast sort of "pop" up by using the stored energy in the > springs....works sort of cool, and is pretty easy....Do you approve, Dick??? > Larry ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: Wilsometer@aol.com Subject: M_Boats: Motors for M15 / M17 & misc. motor rant Date: 18 Mar 2001 03:33:16 EST In a message dated 3/15/2001 7:11:59 PM, Steve wrote: <> Most of what I will put forth here has already been posted repeatedly over the last four or so years, but for relative new comers, here is my 2 cents worth (warning: this is not a short piece!!): 2-STROKE VS. FOUR STROKE: To me, the reasons to buy a 4-stroke are manifold: 1) fuel economy: perhaps not so much an issue for the casual daysailer who uses his/her motor only to leave/return to the dock, but if motoring constitutes a significant percentage on your on-the-water time, then the better than100% increase in range will be noticed quickly. We have cruised our M15 on longer (three week) trips in British Columbia, and with distances of up to 70 miles between fuel docks (unfortunately, motoring is often more common than sailing in those parts), our Honda four-stroke, 2hp made such travel possible (we were able to limit extra fuel to the aft portion of the cockpit--under the tiller, and out of the way). 2) no oil/fuel mixing: Again, not so much a hassle for occasional use--excepting that if you are only using occasionally, you run the risk of mixing more fuel than can be used within most manufacturer's suggested time limits for pre-mixed fuel (varies, but the general consensus is that you should not mix more fuel/oil than can be consumed within about three weeks). With a four-stroke, you can pour any unused gasoline directly into your car's/truck's gas tank after each trip, or at end-of-season (disclaimer: this assumes your vehicle is gasoline powered, and not diesel!). This way you can always have fresh fuel, do not have to worry about disposing of mixed fuel gone bad or not used within a season (some have advocated the practice of pouring oil/fuel mix into their car's tanks. This is not a good idea--especially if your car/truck is a newer, fuel-injected model with computer engine controls--it can, at very least, do permanent damage to your catalyst). For those living or planning on traveling in the Pacific Northwest, there is an added benefit of having a four-stroke. Both the Washington State (they don't seem to enforce so much) and the British Columbia (they enforce regularly) Ferry systems have restrictions as to how much fuel one can carry outside of that in your vehicle's fuel tank. We would simply pour any unused fuel into our truck and either purchase or pump fuel from the truck to the boat when we reached our new destination. This would not have worked with a 2-stroke. 3) less cantankerous: While it is true that a four-stroke requires more maintenance (oil changes, periodic valve adjusts), and has more moving parts (valve train), I have found that, on balance, four-strokes are easier starting and are not as prone to plug fouling or stalling. In spite of the increased complexity, I have had fewer problems with four-strokes than with 2-strokes out on the water. 4) less smokey: Upon switching to a four-stroke, the first thing I noticed was the lack of blue smoke wafting over the transom. Those who are prone to seasickness may discover unexpected relief upon switching to a four-stroke. Apparently the smoke compounds a feeling of nausea in some individuals. 5) seemingly quieter: Also, many four-strokes seem quieter than like-powered two-strokes. While this may vary from brand to brand or model to model, It is at least fair to say that four-strokes sound different. To my ear, my Honda 2 has a lower, less droning sound than the two strokes in the similar horsepower range. 6) less polluting: Given that nobody has brought up the pronounced pollution problem of 2-strokes (at least during this most recent round), I am left to assume that I am perhaps the sole remaining save-the-earth-bleeding-heart-liberal left on this list. I won't presume to tell the libertarians among you what to do, but there is ample literature to suggest that 2-strokes are bad for the environment. While not perfect, four-strokes are leagues better in virtually every category of emissions than even the best of the new generation of oil-injected or lean-burn 2-strokes (it is worth noting that such improved 2-stroke technologies are usually available only on motors far too large for consideration for use as M-boat auxiliaries). A few well publicized statistics to ponder: a) As much as 30 percent of the fuel that a two-stroke marine or small machine engine uses goes unburned and is released in its exhaust. b) A 100 horsepower marine engine operated for seven hours emits more air pollution emissions than a new car driven 100,000 miles. Just one hour of operation of these engines is equivalent to driving 5,000 miles. (OK, none of us have 100hp outboards, but you can extrapolate). c) The fuel and oil spilled from these engines each year amounts to 15 times the amount spilled by the Exxon Valdez oil tanker. d) In the U.S. 75 percent of all boats and personal watercraft are powered by two-stroke engines. e) Since much of the recreational boating and personal watercraft use occurs on fresh water reservoirs, our drinking water is also being contaminated by these engines. f) A 1997 study conducted by the California Air Resources Board found that 125 tons of volatile organic compounds - mostly raw fuel - per day was being emitted by just outboard marine engines and jet skis. During summer weekend days, typically when smog is at its worst, the 500,000 two-stroke marine engines in California create more hydrocarbon pollution than the state's 16 million automobiles. (for more in-depth information See: www.earthisland.org/bw/impact.shtml or http://ens.lycos.com/ens/dec99/1999L-12-06g.html) I would argue that one does not have to be a card-carrying liberal to recognize that purchasing a cleaner running four-stroke is, in the words of a certain oatmeal ad campaign, "...the right thing to do." Cost and weight have been the primary objections to purchasing four strokes for Montgomery owners posting to this list. Four strokes do cost more, but considering the environmental and social costs of continued two-stroke use, perhaps the modest premium for a four-stroke is more easily justified. For the Social Darwinists among us (with an eye to self-interest alone), consider that the increased efficiency of a four-stroke may actually offset the somewhat higher initial purchase price, with the payback period a function of how much you motor, fuel costs, etc. OK, so those are the advantages as I see them. Any discussion with respect to merits should necessarily be balanced by equal time to consider the liabilities. The primary detractions from four strokes are (some mentioned above): 1) cost While the gap seems to be closing somewhat, four-strokes were, last time I checked, anywhere from 15%-40% more expensive. 2) weight Four-strokes are usually thought to be considerably heavier than their two-stroke counterparts, but this is less the case at the lower end of the horsepower scale. My Honda 2hp long-shaft weighs in at an oh-so-svelte 29 lbs. Two-stroke models of comparable power from Tohatsu, Nissan, Johnson/Evinrude (Probably all made by Tohatsu with different labeling) weigh in at about 28 lbs. I, for one, would be hard pressed to get too excited about that extra pound. Larger motors can have a somewhat larger spread. 3) added complexity/service requirements: There are indeed more moving parts, and these are lubricated by oil in a crankcase that, like your car, needs to be changed at regular intervals. Valves on most models will need periodic adjustment. 4) some models require special handling/storage positions: Because they have a 'wet sump' (crankcase with oil), some four strokes have requirements on which side you may lay them during storage or transport. 5) vibration: Four strokes are inherently more prone to vibration. These vibrations are usually RPM dependant, and as such, one can usually find a comfortable RPM where vibration is minimized. HP and the M15 and M17: Finally, and in response to inquiries regarding appropriate motors/horsepower for the M15 and M17 respectively, I offer the following: As mentioned above, we have cruised in varying conditions for a few weeks at a stretch (often motoring 8 or more hours per day due to lack of wind). Our M15 is powered by a 1997 Honda BF2A long-shaft on the stock motor mount. Our primary cruising grounds are British Columbia and San Francisco Bay--both of which are known to have significant currents and steep chop. Having been on another M15 with a 'standard' shaft (albeit non-Honda) motor, and having had this motor pop out and cavitate in the characteristic steep chop, or anytime anyone went forward, I opted for the long shaft. It does drag in the water while sailing on a starboard tack--but less so than would be the case with competitive motors on account of a higher tilt-up angle of the Honda. To this end, I have fabricated (but yet to mount) a teak block to be bolted on the stock bracket that will allow the motor to sit slightly higher (but still deeper than the short/regular shaft version) and slightly further outboard (this will cure the only shortcoming I have experienced regarding this vintage Honda on the stock M15 bracket--namely that the engine case just hits the transom top when fully tilted if the motor is not turned sideways first. The newer, totally redesigned model may or may not experience this problem--someone on this list will no doubt know). The same block installed on my friend's M15 seem to work quite well. Those who have switched to the lifting/tilting style motor brackets have reported success--I will defer to them for specifics. I would characterize the performance of the Honda 2 as something between adequate and ample. A little more power might be nice, but the motor has pushed us sufficiently (though not always quickly) through stiff currents and choppy conditions, and has done so economically and reliably. Some have reported obtaining hull speed at less than--or around--half throttle. This has not been my experience, though I suspect that others may not have weeks worth of stores, spares, etc. on board. Much of the time, we towed an 8'-6" hard transom inflatable dinghy/sportboat. We did experience a drop in speed that we were not able to recover, but were still within an acceptable average cruising speed (4+/- knots). Refueling with an internal-tank-only motor while underway is never going to be ideal. We set up an external tank with a primer-bulb/hose/shut-off valve (all off-the-shelf Tempo products from West Marine). This allowed fuel to be pumped rather than poured while under way (leaning over the stern to pour from a larger container proved dangerous as well as polluting, as it seemed like I, as well as a considerable amount of fuel, were equally likely to end up in the water. The pump system was quick, safe, and allowed me to monitor fuel consumption. A friend tried to hook his pump hose directly to the cap of the motor's internal tank, but gave up after various prototypes failed to meet the dual requirements of replenishing the fuel and venting the tank without spewing fuel everywhere. We carried the following spares for the motor, but never needed them: spark plugs, gaskets for the lower end, water pump impeller (yes, the Honda 2 power-head is air-cooled, but the exhaust is still water cooled), propeller, shear pins, starting rope, motor oil, grease, tools, and shop manual. I took time to familiarize myself with the assembly/disassembly and parts of the motor prior to our extensive trips. In summary, I am happy with the Honda 2hp. I am not aware of another four-stroke of a weight appropriate to the M15 that has more power. I entertained purchasing the new Yamaha 4hp four-stroke (with internal tank, and hookup for optional external tank as well) for a more ambitious Alaska trip, but I have real reservations about its 49 lb. weight. I have seen three M15's now that have cracked and/or separating hull-to-deck joints at the transom. Two of the three had large (5-8hp) outboards affixed. The other had a smaller outboard (Johnson 3.3) but the owner insisted on towing with the motor on the bracket (a very bad idea, I believe). There is also the question of the higher torque produced by larger motors. I am not sure how much torque is too much on the transom regardless of which motor bracket is employed. In summary, I think the Honda 2hp is an ideal motor for the M15. The newer generation of these has even lower emissions, greater fuel economy (up to 50% more than the previous Honda 2), and the choice of fixed-drive (always in gear like mine), or with neutral (centrifugal clutch--is in neutral when at idle), slide or grip throttle, short or long shaft. As for the M17, the Yamaha 4, Honda 5, or one of the many (though often duplicate) versions of similar horsepower by Tohatsu, Evinrude/Johnson, Nissan, Mercury, etc. seem appropriate. Probably better to solicit the collective opinions of M17 owners, but I suspect that 5hp is more than adequate. Consider that the 6000lb Flicka and 8000lb Falmouth Cutter are pushed to 5+ knots by 8 or 9 peak (more like 7 continuous) horsepower diesels. I helped deliver a Freedom 21 (nearly twice the displacement of the M17, I believe, and probably more wetted area) equipped with a Honda 5hp. We were able to push the boat to hull speed with very little throttle--even in steep counter-current chop. Fuel economy was outstanding. I think there is such a thing as diminishing returns with respect to horsepower--especially with displacement, or even semi-planing hull boats. Relatively small incremental speed gains are likely to be accompanied by dramatically increased weight as you move to ever larger motors. Many boats have a trim balance that, when upset, will dramatically impact sailing performance. Well, that's my 2 cents worth--pretty cheap when you consider the bulk of words, no? Hopefully helpful to someone. Scott Grometer, M15#478 'bebe' ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: mikit Subject: M_Boats: Fwd: Re: Trailer motor mount Date: 18 Mar 2001 03:55:58 -0800 >Date: Sun, 18 Mar 2001 03:31:15 -0800 >To: Michael & Lizabeth Towers >From: mikit >Subject: Re: Trailer motor mount >Cc: >Bcc: >X-Attachments: > >Hopefully this works. I know that there is a better web photo >hosting site for this purpose but I can't think of it's name right >now. There is a series of 11 random shots of the trailer winch area. >The last photo shows our keel guide, along with the effect a >simple wedge has on fairing out the bunk against the hull. This last >photo also show the 10 ft. tongue extension stored on the starboard >side of the trailer. Simply scroll though the selection of photos >and click on the picture to get a full size view. >http://albums.photopoint.com/j/ViewPhoto?u=1292324&a=12139713&p=44039698&f=0 > >Mike >M-17 #369 > > >>Mike, >> >>I'd like to see a photo of your trailer motor mount. Please email me a >>photo too. Thanks. >> >>Michael Towers >>Alexandria, Minnesota >> >> >> >> >>>Bones, >>>My configuration has the winch below the cushion roller. That puts >>>the bow eye about 6 in. below the cushion roller when the boat is >>>loaded on it's trailer. It works great in this position, loading >>>could not be easier. I have a later model M-17 so I am not sure where >>>the bow eye position is on the original design. >>> >>>I have also modified the pedistal to allow the motor to be mounted >>>here while traveling. Also added an extendable square tubing devise >>>with V cushion that supports the mast when traveling. In use it >>>extends up through the pulpit and holds the mast slightly off of the >>>pulpit. The motor mount is extremely functional. The extension also >>>works well, is probably not needed, but I had some extra steel and >>>it's my nature to complicate every project as much as possible. >>>Finally broke down and purchased a digital camera this winter, I will >>>take some pictures this weekend and send them your way if you like. >>>Mike >>>M-17 #369 ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: Bob Subject: Re: M_Boats: Motors for M15 / M17 & misc. motor rant Date: 18 Mar 2001 06:26:57 -0800 Scott Thanks! Now that was a great report on Motors and your experiences. I was surprised by how much pollution the 2 strokes produce. We forget that 10's of thousands of Jet-skis are buzzing the coastal waters every nice weekend, around the country. 2 strokes are slowly being banned at some lakes here in California and it only a matter of time before they will be dinosaurs. Bob Wilsometer@aol.com wrote: > In a message dated 3/15/2001 7:11:59 PM, Steve wrote: > > < at 60 lbs, and I like the thought of an external tank, but 60 lbs is a lot. > Have any of you put a 4 stroke 5 horse on a M15? If so, any regrets. Let's > rehash the short versus long shaft, too. Your thoughts are appreciated.>> > > > Most of what I will put forth here has already been posted repeatedly over > the last four or so years, but for relative new comers, here is my 2 cents > worth (warning: this is not a short piece!!): > > 2-STROKE VS. FOUR STROKE: > > To me, the reasons to buy a 4-stroke are manifold: > > 1) fuel economy: > perhaps not so much an issue for the casual daysailer who uses his/her motor > only to leave/return to the dock, but if motoring constitutes a significant > percentage on your on-the-water time, then the better than100% increase in > range will be noticed quickly. We have cruised our M15 on longer (three > week) trips in British Columbia, and with distances of up to 70 miles between > fuel docks (unfortunately, motoring is often more common than sailing in > those parts), our Honda four-stroke, 2hp made such travel possible (we were > able to limit extra fuel to the aft portion of the cockpit--under the tiller, > and out of the way). > > 2) no oil/fuel mixing: > Again, not so much a hassle for occasional use--excepting that if you are > only using occasionally, you run the risk of mixing more fuel than can be > used within most manufacturer's suggested time limits for pre-mixed fuel > (varies, but the general consensus is that you should not mix more fuel/oil > than can be consumed within about three weeks). With a four-stroke, you can > pour any unused gasoline directly into your car's/truck's gas tank after each > trip, or at end-of-season (disclaimer: this assumes your vehicle is gasoline > powered, and not diesel!). This way you can always have fresh fuel, do not > have to worry about disposing of mixed fuel gone bad or not used within a > season (some have advocated the practice of pouring oil/fuel mix into their > car's tanks. This is not a good idea--especially if your car/truck is a > newer, fuel-injected model with computer engine controls--it can, at very > least, do permanent damage to your catalyst). For those living or planning > on traveling in the Pacific Northwest, there is an added benefit of having a > four-stroke. Both the Washington State (they don't seem to enforce so much) > and the British Columbia (they enforce regularly) Ferry systems have > restrictions as to how much fuel one can carry outside of that in your > vehicle's fuel tank. We would simply pour any unused fuel into our truck and > either purchase or pump fuel from the truck to the boat when we reached our > new destination. This would not have worked with a 2-stroke. > > 3) less cantankerous: > While it is true that a four-stroke requires more maintenance (oil changes, > periodic valve adjusts), and has more moving parts (valve train), I have > found that, on balance, four-strokes are easier starting and are not as prone > to plug fouling or stalling. In spite of the increased complexity, I have > had fewer problems with four-strokes than with 2-strokes out on the water. > > 4) less smokey: > Upon switching to a four-stroke, the first thing I noticed was the lack of > blue smoke wafting over the transom. Those who are prone to seasickness may > discover unexpected relief upon switching to a four-stroke. Apparently the > smoke compounds a feeling of nausea in some individuals. > > 5) seemingly quieter: > Also, many four-strokes seem quieter than like-powered two-strokes. While > this may vary from brand to brand or model to model, It is at least fair to > say that four-strokes sound different. To my ear, my Honda 2 has a lower, > less droning sound than the two strokes in the similar horsepower range. > > 6) less polluting: > Given that nobody has brought up the pronounced pollution problem of > 2-strokes (at least during this most recent round), I am left to assume that > I am perhaps the sole remaining save-the-earth-bleeding-heart-liberal left on > this list. I won't presume to tell the libertarians among you what to do, > but there is ample literature to suggest that 2-strokes are bad for the > environment. > While not perfect, four-strokes are leagues better in virtually every > category of emissions than even the best of the new generation of > oil-injected or lean-burn 2-strokes (it is worth noting that such improved > 2-stroke technologies are usually available only on motors far too large for > consideration for use as M-boat auxiliaries). > > A few well publicized statistics to ponder: > a) As much as 30 percent of the fuel that a two-stroke marine or small > machine engine uses goes unburned and is released in its exhaust. > > b) A 100 horsepower marine engine operated for seven hours emits more air > pollution emissions than a new car driven 100,000 miles. Just one hour of > operation of these engines is equivalent to driving 5,000 miles. (OK, none of > us have 100hp outboards, but you can extrapolate). > > c) The fuel and oil spilled from these engines each year amounts to 15 times > the amount spilled by the Exxon Valdez oil tanker. > > d) In the U.S. 75 percent of all boats and personal watercraft are powered by > two-stroke engines. > > e) Since much of the recreational boating and personal watercraft use occurs > on fresh water reservoirs, our drinking water is also being contaminated by > these engines. > > f) A 1997 study conducted by the California Air Resources Board found that > 125 tons of volatile organic compounds - mostly raw fuel - per day was being > emitted by just outboard marine engines and jet skis. During summer weekend > days, typically when smog is at its worst, the 500,000 two-stroke marine > engines in California create more hydrocarbon pollution than the state's 16 > million automobiles. > > (for more in-depth information See: www.earthisland.org/bw/impact.shtml or > http://ens.lycos.com/ens/dec99/1999L-12-06g.html) > > I would argue that one does not have to be a card-carrying liberal to > recognize that purchasing a cleaner running four-stroke is, in the words of a > certain oatmeal ad campaign, "...the right thing to do." Cost and weight > have been the primary objections to purchasing four strokes for Montgomery > owners posting to this list. Four strokes do cost more, but considering the > environmental and social costs of continued two-stroke use, perhaps the > modest premium for a four-stroke is more easily justified. For the Social > Darwinists among us (with an eye to self-interest alone), consider that the > increased efficiency of a four-stroke may actually offset the somewhat higher > initial purchase price, with the payback period a function of how much you > motor, fuel costs, etc. > > OK, so those are the advantages as I see them. Any discussion with respect > to merits should necessarily be balanced by equal time to consider the > liabilities. The primary detractions from four strokes are (some mentioned > above): > > 1) cost > While the gap seems to be closing somewhat, four-strokes were, last time I > checked, anywhere from 15%-40% more expensive. > > 2) weight > Four-strokes are usually thought to be considerably heavier than their > two-stroke counterparts, but this is less the case at the lower end of the > horsepower scale. My Honda 2hp long-shaft weighs in at an oh-so-svelte 29 > lbs. Two-stroke models of comparable power from Tohatsu, Nissan, > Johnson/Evinrude (Probably all made by Tohatsu with different labeling) weigh > in at about 28 lbs. I, for one, would be hard pressed to get too excited > about that extra pound. Larger motors can have a somewhat larger spread. > > 3) added complexity/service requirements: > There are indeed more moving parts, and these are lubricated by oil in a > crankcase that, like your car, needs to be changed at regular intervals. > Valves on most models will need periodic adjustment. > > 4) some models require special handling/storage positions: > Because they have a 'wet sump' (crankcase with oil), some four strokes have > requirements on which side you may lay them during storage or transport. > > 5) vibration: > Four strokes are inherently more prone to vibration. These vibrations are > usually RPM dependant, and as such, one can usually find a comfortable RPM > where vibration is minimized. > > HP and the M15 and M17: > Finally, and in response to inquiries regarding appropriate motors/horsepower > for the M15 and M17 respectively, I offer the following: > > As mentioned above, we have cruised in varying conditions for a few weeks at > a stretch (often motoring 8 or more hours per day due to lack of wind). Our > M15 is powered by a 1997 Honda BF2A long-shaft on the stock motor mount. Our > primary cruising grounds are British Columbia and San Francisco Bay--both of > which are known to have significant currents and steep chop. Having been on > another M15 with a 'standard' shaft (albeit non-Honda) motor, and having had > this motor pop out and cavitate in the characteristic steep chop, or anytime > anyone went forward, I opted for the long shaft. It does drag in the water > while sailing on a starboard tack--but less so than would be the case with > competitive motors on account of a higher tilt-up angle of the Honda. To > this end, I have fabricated (but yet to mount) a teak block to be bolted on > the stock bracket that will allow the motor to sit slightly higher (but still > deeper than the short/regular shaft version) and slightly further outboard > (this will cure the only shortcoming I have experienced regarding this > vintage Honda on the stock M15 bracket--namely that the engine case just hits > the transom top when fully tilted if the motor is not turned sideways first. > The newer, totally redesigned model may or may not experience this > problem--someone on this list will no doubt know). The same block installed > on my friend's M15 seem to work quite well. Those who have switched to the > lifting/tilting style motor brackets have reported success--I will defer to > them for specifics. > I would characterize the performance of the Honda 2 as something between > adequate and ample. A little more power might be nice, but the motor has > pushed us sufficiently (though not always quickly) through stiff currents and > choppy conditions, and has done so economically and reliably. Some have > reported obtaining hull speed at less than--or around--half throttle. This > has not been my experience, though I suspect that others may not have weeks > worth of stores, spares, etc. on board. Much of the time, we towed an 8'-6" > hard transom inflatable dinghy/sportboat. We did experience a drop in speed > that we were not able to recover, but were still within an acceptable average > cruising speed (4+/- knots). Refueling with an internal-tank-only motor > while underway is never going to be ideal. We set up an external tank with a > primer-bulb/hose/shut-off valve (all off-the-shelf Tempo products from West > Marine). This allowed fuel to be pumped rather than poured while under way > (leaning over the stern to pour from a larger container proved dangerous as > well as polluting, as it seemed like I, as well as a considerable amount of > fuel, were equally likely to end up in the water. The pump system was quick, > safe, and allowed me to monitor fuel consumption. A friend tried to hook his > pump hose directly to the cap of the motor's internal tank, but gave up after > various prototypes failed to meet the dual requirements of replenishing the > fuel and venting the tank without spewing fuel everywhere. We carried the > following spares for the motor, but never needed them: spark plugs, gaskets > for the lower end, water pump impeller (yes, the Honda 2 power-head is > air-cooled, but the exhaust is still water cooled), propeller, shear pins, > starting rope, motor oil, grease, tools, and shop manual. I took time to > familiarize myself with the assembly/disassembly and parts of the motor prior > to our extensive trips. In summary, I am happy with the Honda 2hp. I am not > aware of another four-stroke of a weight appropriate to the M15 that has more > power. I entertained purchasing the new Yamaha 4hp four-stroke (with > internal tank, and hookup for optional external tank as well) for a more > ambitious Alaska trip, but I have real reservations about its 49 lb. weight. > I have seen three M15's now that have cracked and/or separating hull-to-deck > joints at the transom. Two of the three had large (5-8hp) outboards affixed. > The other had a smaller outboard (Johnson 3.3) but the owner insisted on > towing with the motor on the bracket (a very bad idea, I believe). There is > also the question of the higher torque produced by larger motors. I am not > sure how much torque is too much on the transom regardless of which motor > bracket is employed. > > In summary, I think the Honda 2hp is an ideal motor for the M15. The newer > generation of these has even lower emissions, greater fuel economy (up to 50% > more than the previous Honda 2), and the choice of fixed-drive (always in > gear like mine), or with neutral (centrifugal clutch--is in neutral when at > idle), slide or grip throttle, short or long shaft. > > As for the M17, the Yamaha 4, Honda 5, or one of the many (though often > duplicate) versions of similar horsepower by Tohatsu, Evinrude/Johnson, > Nissan, Mercury, etc. seem appropriate. Probably better to solicit the > collective opinions of M17 owners, but I suspect that 5hp is more than > adequate. Consider that the 6000lb Flicka and 8000lb Falmouth Cutter are > pushed to 5+ knots by 8 or 9 peak (more like 7 continuous) horsepower > diesels. I helped deliver a Freedom 21 (nearly twice the displacement of the > M17, I believe, and probably more wetted area) equipped with a Honda 5hp. We > were able to push the boat to hull speed with very little throttle--even in > steep counter-current chop. Fuel economy was outstanding. I think there is > such a thing as diminishing returns with respect to horsepower--especially > with displacement, or even semi-planing hull boats. Relatively small > incremental speed gains are likely to be accompanied by dramatically > increased weight as you move to ever larger motors. Many boats have a trim > balance that, when upset, will dramatically impact sailing performance. > > Well, that's my 2 cents worth--pretty cheap when you consider the bulk of > words, no? Hopefully helpful to someone. > > Scott Grometer, M15#478 'bebe' > > > > ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: "Randy Graves" Subject: M_Boats: Motor Mount & Keel Guides Date: 18 Mar 2001 08:44:23 -0800 Mike, Great pictures! We mounted our 4 hp Yamaha in a similiar fashion, we mounted it 90 degrees-off of you mounting position. The motor mount runs the beam of the boat in our installation. Otherwise, nearly identical. We had enough surface area and the angle iron we used makes the install plenty strong, even with the leverage of the over hang. We secure the prop end of the motor with a bungee to the post for long trips. The prop end actually snubs up against the spare tire. Had the traditional wooden "V" keel guides on our prior boat. Tried something new with the M-15 and am happy with the results. Using 1 1/2 PVC pipe and U-bolts we fashioned a vertical "U" shape of PVC around the keel, up towards the front end of the keel. And mounted it to one of the cross members of our Zeiman trailer. Kind-a like a cradle for the keel. As the U shaped portion rised vertically, as it nears the bottom of the hull the PVC makes a 45 degree turn and extends parallel to the bottom of the hull, creating the traditional "V" shape opening used to center the boat on the trailer. This V only runs back a couple of feet, creating an opening of about 3 feet wide that narrows and centers the boat as it moves forward on the trailer. The PVC is strong enough to center the boat while semi-floating, yet flexible enough to give a little if needed and not scratch the hull or keel. PVC pipe, joints, and glue are cheap. Randy G. M-15 #407 "Dinky-Boat" Post Falls, ID ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: Tim McInerney Subject: M_Boats: M-17 Dodger Date: 18 Mar 2001 13:23:06 -0500 Anyone bought or made a dodger for the 17? Tim McInerney M-17 "Orion" #384 ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: sparsons@canby.com (Steve Parsons) Subject: Re: M_Boats: Hondas Again Date: 18 Mar 2001 12:17:32 -0800 Howard, Good point. I think Nalgene makes plastic fuel bottles that are pretty beefy. Steve > > >Wcpritchett@aol.com wrote: > >> Also, when doing short runs and not needing a lot of fuel, I put gas in quart >> size oil containers with the screw on lid. They are easy to handle with one >> hand while you're hanging off the transom and give somewhat of a measuring >> tool for filling. The small size will store anywhere. >> >> Bill P. > >As an alternative to used oil containers, we use these fuel bottles for >backpacking: > >http://www.campmor.com/webapp/commerce/command/ProductDisplay?prmenbr=226&p rrfnbr=13723 > >They are tough and don't leak. They should be available at almost any camping >store, and are approved for fuel storage. They come in pints and quarts. The >spout is made to fit the fill opening on a small backpacking stove, and is >vented. The spout stores inside the neck of the bottle. To use it, you pull it >out and invert it. > > >Howard >M17, #278 > > > > > > ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: sparsons@canby.com (Steve Parsons) Subject: Re: M_Boats: Motors for M15 / M17 & misc. motor rant Date: 18 Mar 2001 12:24:53 -0800 Scott, Thank you! That's a thorough examination of the topic. Steve > ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: "Bill Riker" Subject: RE: M_Boats: Hondas Again Date: 18 Mar 2001 19:34:13 -0500 Bill P. Thanks for the warning, and the suggestion of using quart oil containers. Great idea! Bill Riker M-15 #184 Storm Petrel -----Original Message----- [mailto:owner-montgomery_boats@lists.xmission.com]On Behalf Of Wcpritchett@aol.com Sent: March 17, 2001 9:07 AM Bill R., At one time I thought about modifying an engine tank filler cap with a hose attachment to a squeeze bulb tank. Never did it but it would be easy and keep the spills down while refueling in rough going. I had a 3 Johnson with internal tank catch on fire once after spilling fuel all over from a rough water refuel. I wiped it down and thought the gas was gone but it went down into all the cowl joints and lit up on the first pull. This really turned me off from refueling when you can't keep it from sloshing out all over the engine. Also, when doing short runs and not needing a lot of fuel, I put gas in quart size oil containers with the screw on lid. They are easy to handle with one hand while you're hanging off the transom and give somewhat of a measuring tool for filling. The small size will store anywhere. Bill P. ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: Wcpritchett@aol.com Subject: Re: M_Boats: Hondas Again Date: 18 Mar 2001 20:26:49 EST Howard, Thanks for the fuel container tip. Bill P. ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: Doug King Subject: M_Boats: New MSOG Database Needs You Date: 19 Mar 2001 19:06:33 -0500 Hola, For a few months, I've been trying to figure out a way to collect the information we cycle through on the listserver every once in a while. I have beseeched folks to volunteer to put together collections of email posts on specific subjects. Kept thinking about a FAQ-type format but it really didn't fit, and personally, I don't like 'em. Anyway, I never got any takers--I found out why after putting together the M-15 vs. M-17 comparison posts. Talk about a boatload of work! (so to speak). And that was taking posts from my In mailbox--I can't imagine how difficult it would be to go back through the archives and put something together. But I think I've solved the problem. I spent the weekend writing a database for just this sort of thing (gives you some idea of how exciting my life is.) It is sorta half-survey and half-opinion, a new format I have christened the Owner's Opinion List. First Subject: OUTBOARDS! The short 3-item survey asks what motor you currently own, your satisfaction with it, and what you are considering/evaluating/would consider for your next motor, if you were in the market. It's quick and short, but gets the basic info. The most important part is the big ol' text area. Please add your thoughts to it--it should make for less work in the long run. Since so many have already sent in posts to the list the past week or so, you can probably look in your Out mailbox and copy and paste from your recent posts into the text box. I've done mine to give an idea of how a record looks. Only deal: you gotta be in the Owners Registry, from which I grab your boat length, year and other info that puts your contribution into context. When we reach a critical mass, I will start a running tally of motor by boat length and average satisfaction level with pretty color graphs and fancy tables and-8X10-B&W-glossy-photographs-with-a-description-on-the-back-of-each- one-explaining-what-it-is [Alice's Restaurant] and other useless accoutrements, like the Owners Registry has where, interestingly, "Randy" is the most common name. It's designed to be relatively easy to create several similar lists. I figure we can update the records every couple of years to keep it current. It'll still be less work than the postings that you all are so kind to post every 3 months or so. I'm also interested to know what the next subject should be. Based on the number of recent posts, I'm thinking "Roller-Furlers", followed by "Wooden Bungs" (just kidding.) I've also added (without their permission) Scott Grometer's great evaluation of 2-stroke vs. 4-stroke motors, as well as Tim McInerney's Small Outboards Specifications Comparison. You can get to both of them from this new Outboards Opinion List page, listed on the Side Menu. Please take a look at it, and contribute, at http://msog.brinet.net/cfmods/outboards.cfm. It seemed to work OK in testing, but if you have any problems with it, let me know asap so I can fix 'em. I apologize for not asking for your input on this first one since it's kind of different, but I hope once you get a look at it, you'll have ideas to improve the next one. Thanks, Doug Doug King M-17 #404 "Vixen" MSOG Web site: http://msog.brinet.net Email: mailto:msog@brinet.net ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: Tom Smith Subject: RE: M_Boats: New MSOG Database Needs You Date: 19 Mar 2001 16:18:38 -0800 ...I'm worried about you Doug. Do we need to find you a girlfriend? A puppy? As usual, great job, and very imaginative. T Tom Smith and Jane Van Winkle M15/345 -- Chukar Sandpoint, Idaho -----Original Message----- Sent: Monday, March 19, 2001 4:07 PM Hola, For a few months, I've been trying to figure out a way to collect the information we cycle through on the listserver every once in a while. I have beseeched folks to volunteer to put together collections of email posts on specific subjects. Kept thinking about a FAQ-type format but it really didn't fit, and personally, I don't like 'em. Anyway, I never got any takers--I found out why after putting together the M-15 vs. M-17 comparison posts. Talk about a boatload of work! (so to speak). And that was taking posts from my In mailbox--I can't imagine how difficult it would be to go back through the archives and put something together. But I think I've solved the problem. I spent the weekend writing a database for just this sort of thing (gives you some idea of how exciting my life is.) It is sorta half-survey and half-opinion, a new format I have christened the Owner's Opinion List. First Subject: OUTBOARDS! The short 3-item survey asks what motor you currently own, your satisfaction with it, and what you are considering/evaluating/would consider for your next motor, if you were in the market. It's quick and short, but gets the basic info. The most important part is the big ol' text area. Please add your thoughts to it--it should make for less work in the long run. Since so many have already sent in posts to the list the past week or so, you can probably look in your Out mailbox and copy and paste from your recent posts into the text box. I've done mine to give an idea of how a record looks. Only deal: you gotta be in the Owners Registry, from which I grab your boat length, year and other info that puts your contribution into context. When we reach a critical mass, I will start a running tally of motor by boat length and average satisfaction level with pretty color graphs and fancy tables and-8X10-B&W-glossy-photographs-with-a-description-on-the-back-of-each- one-explaining-what-it-is [Alice's Restaurant] and other useless accoutrements, like the Owners Registry has where, interestingly, "Randy" is the most common name. It's designed to be relatively easy to create several similar lists. I figure we can update the records every couple of years to keep it current. It'll still be less work than the postings that you all are so kind to post every 3 months or so. I'm also interested to know what the next subject should be. Based on the number of recent posts, I'm thinking "Roller-Furlers", followed by "Wooden Bungs" (just kidding.) I've also added (without their permission) Scott Grometer's great evaluation of 2-stroke vs. 4-stroke motors, as well as Tim McInerney's Small Outboards Specifications Comparison. You can get to both of them from this new Outboards Opinion List page, listed on the Side Menu. Please take a look at it, and contribute, at http://msog.brinet.net/cfmods/outboards.cfm. It seemed to work OK in testing, but if you have any problems with it, let me know asap so I can fix 'em. I apologize for not asking for your input on this first one since it's kind of different, but I hope once you get a look at it, you'll have ideas to improve the next one. Thanks, Doug Doug King M-17 #404 "Vixen" MSOG Web site: http://msog.brinet.net Email: mailto:msog@brinet.net ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: "Keith Diehl" Subject: Re: M_Boats: New MSOG Database Needs You Date: 19 Mar 2001 17:47:15 -0700 If anyone runs across a list archiving service similar to what ListQuest used to provide us, please let me know. (Or if you know anything about what's become of ListQuest!) We all miss the ability to search our archives and I haven't been able to find a replacement for them. All of our archives are saved at http://www.xmission.com/pub/lists/montgomery_boats/archive , but the format is difficult to make use of. ----- Original Message ----- Sent: Monday, March 19, 2001 5:06 PM > Hola, > > For a few months, I've been trying to figure out a way to collect the > information we cycle through on the listserver every once in a while. ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: AirEvacLen@aol.com Subject: Re: M_Boats: New MSOG Database Needs You Date: 19 Mar 2001 20:08:58 EST In a message dated 03/19/2001 5:05:19 PM US Mountain Standard Time, msog@brinet.net writes: << http://msog.brinet.net/cfmods/outboards.cfm. >> Anybody besides me have a problem with getting to the site using the above? Lenny ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: "Keith Diehl" Subject: Re: M_Boats: New MSOG Database Needs You Date: 19 Mar 2001 19:12:51 -0700 The link was OK for me. ----- Original Message ----- Sent: Monday, March 19, 2001 6:08 PM > In a message dated 03/19/2001 5:05:19 PM US Mountain Standard Time, > msog@brinet.net writes: > > << http://msog.brinet.net/cfmods/outboards.cfm. >> > > Anybody besides me have a problem with getting to the site using the above? > > Lenny > > ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: "Russ Browne" Subject: Re: M_Boats: New MSOG Database Needs You Date: 19 Mar 2001 21:37:35 -0500 How about Yahoo Groups or Yahoo Clubs. The former eGroups are now in Yahoo Groups and everything seems to work well. Don't know about archiving, though. Russ Browne "Windsong" 1990 ComPac 19 #530 Lake St Clair Clinton Township, MI _________________________________________________________________ Get your FREE download of MSN Explorer at http://explorer.msn.com ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: "Russ Browne" Subject: Re: M_Boats: New MSOG Database Needs You Date: 19 Mar 2001 21:38:57 -0500 No problem getting to the site, but could not get the site to accept my data. Russ Browne "Windsong" 1990 ComPac 19 #530 Lake St Clair Clinton Township, MI _________________________________________________________________ Get your FREE download of MSN Explorer at http://explorer.msn.com ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: "Keith Diehl" Subject: Re: M_Boats: New MSOG Database Needs You Date: 19 Mar 2001 19:47:36 -0700 One of my pet peeves is web sites that collect a bunch of information about their users. Yahoo falls into that category. We don't ask anything other than an email address of our subscribers and I'd like to keep it that way. I also think that Xmission has done a better job for us than any of the "big" names. Just wish we had searchable archives! Maybe I'll suggest that to Xmission. ----- Original Message ----- Sent: Monday, March 19, 2001 7:37 PM > How about Yahoo Groups or Yahoo Clubs. The former eGroups are now in Yahoo > Groups and everything seems to work well. Don't know about archiving, > though. > > > Russ Browne > "Windsong" > 1990 ComPac 19 #530 > Lake St Clair > Clinton Township, MI > > _________________________________________________________________ > Get your FREE download of MSN Explorer at http://explorer.msn.com > > > ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: steve macdonald Subject: Re: M_Boats: Sport-a-seat Date: 19 Mar 2001 20:04:33 -0800 Ahoy there! I can see I'm going to have to look into the sport-a-seat deal. Also, I'll be watching for comments on M-17 dodgers. I'd really like to get one... On another page, I bought the 5HP Honda outboard and I think it weighs about 65 lbs or possibly less. Even an old fart like me can lift it up into the bed of my pickemup truck. And if I can lift it... Type to you later, Steve MacDonald "Dances With Waves" Don Olson wrote: > Hi Rich, > > I agree with you about the sport-a-seat being comfortable. I purchased > one a couple of months ago from Sailnet and the fact that the back is > adjustable makes the seat very versatile. Practical Sailor rated them no > 1 in their test a couple of years ago( I don't know the issue) Recently > I received a catalog from an outfit called "Improvements". Their site > is www.improvementscatalog.com.( I don't know how to list the site so it > can be "clicked") Anyway, they have something called a posture chair > which looks just like the sport-a-seat, including the adjustable back, > and the price is $40. If anyone is interested it is listed under > Comfort/weatherization on page five in their on-line catalog. I have no > idea if the chair is workable in "sea" conditions but it might be worth > considering. > > Don Olson M15 Puffer > Phoenix, Az ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: Grove777@aol.com Subject: Re: M_Boats: New MSOG Database Needs You Date: 19 Mar 2001 21:51:40 EST have forgotten how to post a message help ken ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: "Keith Diehl" Subject: Re: M_Boats: New MSOG Database Needs You Date: 19 Mar 2001 19:52:55 -0700 I think you just did! ----- Original Message ----- Sent: Monday, March 19, 2001 7:51 PM > have forgotten how to post a message > help > ken > > ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: LBarkhuff@cs.com Subject: Re: M_Boats: New MSOG Database Needs You Date: 19 Mar 2001 22:02:56 EST Keith I have been using ViaWest for my other list of 7-11 folks. They seem to have it all together. I will try to find you a phone number, they are in Colorado...Larry Barkhuff ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: Grove777@aol.com Subject: M_Boats: for sale...montgomery 15 Date: 19 Mar 2001 22:07:18 EST this boat has been in storage for 10 years fresh water boat very clean excellant cushions main and jib have had little use solid trailer w/new tires good evin ob 4500 k 361 9499386 located in texas ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: Grove777@aol.com Subject: M_Boats: for sale...montgomery 15 Date: 19 Mar 2001 22:07:18 EST this boat has been in storage for 10 years fresh water boat very clean excellant cushions main and jib have had little use solid trailer w/new tires good evin ob 4500 k 361 9499386 located in texas ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: "Keith Diehl" Subject: M_Boats: Test - please ignore Date: 19 Mar 2001 20:10:13 -0700 ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: Peter Jacobs Subject: M_Boats: M17 Winch Positions Date: 19 Mar 2001 20:27:34 -0800 I just uploaded a pictue of the "before and after" winch positions on Enfin's trailer. It's at http://www.islandnet.com/~pjacobs/enfin.htm right at the bottom of the page. -Peter- -- ======================== Peter Jacobs M17 Enfin Victoria BC Canada http://www.islandnet.com/~pjacobs/homepage.htm ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: Peter Jacobs Subject: M_Boats: Ooops Date: 19 Mar 2001 20:35:01 -0800 That's "picture" :) -- ======================== Peter Jacobs Victoria BC Canada http://www.islandnet.com/~pjacobs/homepage.htm ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: Doug King Subject: M_Boats: The fixes is in Date: 20 Mar 2001 01:03:02 -0500 Well, as usual, there were a few bugs in the Outboards programs, but I think I've ironed out the two that were sent to me. Problem is, you all end up having to be the guinea pigs on these databases, and I appreciate your patience, and apologize for the inconvenience. It seems to be part of the process (at least when I write the programs.) The good news is that subsequent subject lists ought to go much more smoothly--famous last words. Russ and Tod, I guess your records didn't make it in after all, but I think it's fixed. I'd appreciate your trying once more. Tod, I've got your comment text here, I can add it later if you don't want to do it again. Please report any problems or confusion you might encounter directly to mailto:msog@brinet.net ASAP so I can fix/clarify 'em for the others, but mainly so they don't find out. ;-) Thanks again for your patience, Doug Doug King M-17 #404 "Vixen" MSOG Web site: http://msog.brinet.net Email: mailto:msog@brinet.net ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: Richard Lane Subject: Re: M_Boats: New MSOG Database Needs You Date: 19 Mar 2001 23:12:55 -0800 I subscribe to the Yahoo ICF2010 (Sony All Band radio) group and they are archived by year. Dick Russ Browne wrote: > How about Yahoo Groups or Yahoo Clubs. The former eGroups are now in Yahoo > Groups and everything seems to work well. Don't know about archiving, > though. > > Russ Browne > "Windsong" > 1990 ComPac 19 #530 > Lake St Clair > Clinton Township, MI > > _________________________________________________________________ > Get your FREE download of MSN Explorer at http://explorer.msn.com ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: Saltm17@aol.com Subject: Re: M_Boats: New MSOG Database Needs You Date: 20 Mar 2001 02:32:01 EST --part1_7e.126bcf7d.27e86171_boundary Content-Type: text/plain; charset="US-ASCII" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Larry, Could you send me that list too? I'm still in the market for a 7-11. Thanks John M17 #372 "Miss T" --part1_7e.126bcf7d.27e86171_boundary Content-Type: text/html; charset="US-ASCII" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Larry,

Could you send me that list too?  I'm still in the market for a 7-11.

Thanks

John
M17 #372
"Miss T" --part1_7e.126bcf7d.27e86171_boundary-- ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: "Keith Diehl" Subject: M_Boats: Fw: ListQuest Archiving Date: 20 Mar 2001 11:20:00 -0700 Maybe there's hope...this is the first response I've gotten from ListQuest! ----- Original Message ----- Sent: Tuesday, March 20, 2001 5:56 AM > Keith Diehl, > > ListQuest is not dead, however we are currently in a rebuilding process to > offer more and better services. Unfortunately we can not provide a launch > date for the new and improved ListQuest but we hope to have it completed and > online ASAP. Thank you for your interest. > > ListQuest Support > > > -----Original Message----- > > From: Keith Diehl [SMTP:kdiehl@xmission.com] > > Sent: Monday, March 19, 2001 11:04 PM > > To: ian.cooke@epage.ca > > Subject: ListQuest Archiving > > > > ListQuest has kindly been providing searchable archives for my mailing > > list, montgomery_boats. Your service seems to have stopped working > > about September of last year, and list mail sent to > > montgomeryboats@ark.listquest.com has been bouncing for some time. Is > > ListQuest dead or will your fine service once again become available > > to my list members? > > > > Thanks. > > > > Keith Diehl - Salt Lake City, UT > > http://www.xmission.com/~kdiehl > ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: Wcpritchett@aol.com Subject: Re: M_Boats: for sale...montgomery 15 Date: 20 Mar 2001 21:36:51 EST I'll trade a single place experimental plane for your M15...it's worth more than $4500. If interested, let me know. Bill P. ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: Harvey Wilson Subject: M_Boats: M23 Questions Date: 20 Mar 2001 22:54:27 -0500 HI Jeff.. Methinks you'll need to replace the sheaves if you go to all rope halyard= s. I've never done it myself,but may, someday. I've read that the wire shea= ve has a different type of groove, and that it would eventually cut the rope= if it wasn't replaced. Check with W-Marine or BoatUS' rigging shop. W-M has a tech support phone= line , and is on the internet, so it should be a quick answer. Regards, and welcome to the family....what's your hull number ?? Harvey/Ga M-17 Stargazer #294 ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: mikit Subject: Re: M_Boats: M23 Questions Date: 20 Mar 2001 23:28:37 -0800 >Jeff Wrote: >I also would like to replace the halyards. The ones that are on there >are swaged wire and rope. I would like to go to all rope halyards. Can >I replace these old halyards wirh 5/16 rope halyards without changing >the sheaves in the mast head? Can I change the sheaves without grinding >out the mast head to allow them to fit? > My preference is a wire halyard combined with a 7/16" braided line spliced into the end similar to what you describe. My thinking is less stretch, less windage aloft, abrasion resistance and good strength . In general, I prefer 7/16" line for running rigging, not because it's strength is needed, but simply because it feels best in my hand. Your sheaves may be specific for wire but could probably be change out to accommodate line if needed. Somewhere, somehow many of us have more than likely slipped up and called a line a rope only to be corrected by some show off explaining the terms are line or rode, not rope. I can think of several examples of rope on a boat. Bolt rope, tow rope and motor pull rope ( or is that pull cord). Is it throw rope or throw line? I prefer throw rope but I would throw or toss a line. Do they still make soap on a rope or is the nautical version soap on a line? Are there any I've missed? Mike M-17 #369 ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: Grove777@aol.com Subject: Re: M_Boats: for sale...montgomery 15 Date: 21 Mar 2001 09:04:37 EST i spent 30+++ years w/ the air force the smallest airplane i'm going to fly in is a c-130 sorry but need money to pay medical bills wish we could work something out ken call me 361 9499386 ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: Tom Smith Subject: RE: M_Boats: M23 Questions Date: 21 Mar 2001 06:51:39 -0800 You missed rope-a-dope Mike. Tom Smith LineSoft Corporation Phone: 509-928-1707 ext. 248 Fax: 509-928-2581 E-mail: tsmith@linesoft.com Website: www.linesoft.com -----Original Message----- Sent: Tuesday, March 20, 2001 11:29 PM >Jeff Wrote: >I also would like to replace the halyards. The ones that are on there >are swaged wire and rope. I would like to go to all rope halyards. Can >I replace these old halyards wirh 5/16 rope halyards without changing >the sheaves in the mast head? Can I change the sheaves without grinding >out the mast head to allow them to fit? > My preference is a wire halyard combined with a 7/16" braided line spliced into the end similar to what you describe. My thinking is less stretch, less windage aloft, abrasion resistance and good strength . In general, I prefer 7/16" line for running rigging, not because it's strength is needed, but simply because it feels best in my hand. Your sheaves may be specific for wire but could probably be change out to accommodate line if needed. Somewhere, somehow many of us have more than likely slipped up and called a line a rope only to be corrected by some show off explaining the terms are line or rode, not rope. I can think of several examples of rope on a boat. Bolt rope, tow rope and motor pull rope ( or is that pull cord). Is it throw rope or throw line? I prefer throw rope but I would throw or toss a line. Do they still make soap on a rope or is the nautical version soap on a line? Are there any I've missed? Mike M-17 #369 ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: Jeff Grudin Subject: Re: M_Boats: M23 Questions Date: 21 Mar 2001 06:58:34 -0800 Mike, Thanks for your reply. I suppose we would each have our preferences for various things. I would like to switch to rope halyards for several reasons. Mine are worn out and need to be replaced. The new materials (Sta-Set X) that are available are very low stretch. I am a cruiser not a racer and according to a local rigger, these would be low enough in stretch that it would not be a problem. In addition, there is much less noise when rope bangs against the metal mast at night. They are lighter so less weight aloft. They will do much less abrasive damage to the mast over time. 5/16 inch was recommended by the same rigger. His reasoning was that it was large enough to work with comfortably and might fit in the sheaves without having to change them. Other than raising and lowering the sails you aren't really working with these lines as you would a sheet so the size and comfort would not make that big of a difference. My understanding is that a halyard or a sheet is a line that is made from a specific type of rope. The material used to make lines is rope and it is made my companies such as New England Ropes. In fact if you look in the West Marine catalogue, the heading for halyards discusses "Wire to Rope Halyards". I believe it is entirely possible that I may have misused the term, but I believe that I used it properly. -- 73 de AC6KW Jeff Grudin, DVM Web Add: http://www.vdbs.com/~grudin Ocean Animal Clinic / Cat Clinic of Santa Cruz - Santa Cruz, California Norcal QRP #1292 QRP-L #16 ARS #351 AR Qrp #131 ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: Wilsometer@aol.com Subject: M_Boats: Rope vs. wire/rope halyards Date: 21 Mar 2001 11:42:37 EST Jeff, Congratulations on your purchase! Regardless of the nomenclature, I switched from 'wire/rope' to 'rope on my M15 for the reasons you cite. I found some off-the-shelf Harken sheaves that worked perfectly. I suspect you can probably find similar but larger sheaves that would be appropriate to the M23. Perhaps we will run into each other on the bay someday! Scott Grometer, M15 #478 'bebe' ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: Doug King Subject: Re: M_Boats: M23 Questions Date: 21 Mar 2001 13:27:28 -0500 At 06:58 AM 3/21/01 -0800, you wrote: >In addition, there is much less noise when rope bangs against the metal mast at night. A few years ago an instructor showed me how to stop the halyards from banging the mast in port. It's called "fouling the halyards", and you just free both ends of the halyard, swing each end of the halyard out to loop around the end of the lower shroud spreaders, then tie the ends off away from the mast, usually to the lifelines, if you have them. We either tie the ends off to something hard or clip the shackles to something soft so they don't make noise, either. Usually foul one halyard around the starboard spreader and one to the port, with each half of a halyard looped in opposite directions around the spreader end (but that's just me.) Don't know how it will work with wire halyard, though, but bound to be quieter, especially when pulled taut. Really makes a big difference and looks nautical but nice. Doug Doug King M-17 #404 "Vixen" MSOG Web site: http://msog.brinet.net Email: mailto:msog@brinet.net ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: Tim McInerney Subject: M_Boats: Halyard slapping Date: 21 Mar 2001 13:31:51 -0500 I just tie the halyards to the mast as high up as I can with a short piece of light rope. Simple and works fine. -----Original Message----- Sent: Wednesday, March 21, 2001 1:27 PM At 06:58 AM 3/21/01 -0800, you wrote: >In addition, there is much less noise when rope bangs against the metal mast at night. A few years ago an instructor showed me how to stop the halyards from banging the mast in port. It's called "fouling the halyards", and you just free both ends of the halyard, swing each end of the halyard out to loop around the end of the lower shroud spreaders, then tie the ends off away from the mast, usually to the lifelines, if you have them. We either tie the ends off to something hard or clip the shackles to something soft so they don't make noise, either. Usually foul one halyard around the starboard spreader and one to the port, with each half of a halyard looped in opposite directions around the spreader end (but that's just me.) Don't know how it will work with wire halyard, though, but bound to be quieter, especially when pulled taut. Really makes a big difference and looks nautical but nice. Doug Doug King M-17 #404 "Vixen" MSOG Web site: http://msog.brinet.net Email: mailto:msog@brinet.net ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: Tom Smith Subject: RE: M_Boats: Halyard slapping Date: 21 Mar 2001 10:49:08 -0800 I just use a bungee that gathers all the assorted rigging running down the mast and connect to a shroud. Quiet. Cheap. Tom Smith LineSoft Corporation Phone: 509-928-1707 ext. 248 Fax: 509-928-2581 E-mail: tsmith@linesoft.com Website: www.linesoft.com -----Original Message----- Sent: Wednesday, March 21, 2001 10:32 AM I just tie the halyards to the mast as high up as I can with a short piece of light rope. Simple and works fine. -----Original Message----- Sent: Wednesday, March 21, 2001 1:27 PM At 06:58 AM 3/21/01 -0800, you wrote: >In addition, there is much less noise when rope bangs against the metal mast at night. A few years ago an instructor showed me how to stop the halyards from banging the mast in port. It's called "fouling the halyards", and you just free both ends of the halyard, swing each end of the halyard out to loop around the end of the lower shroud spreaders, then tie the ends off away from the mast, usually to the lifelines, if you have them. We either tie the ends off to something hard or clip the shackles to something soft so they don't make noise, either. Usually foul one halyard around the starboard spreader and one to the port, with each half of a halyard looped in opposite directions around the spreader end (but that's just me.) Don't know how it will work with wire halyard, though, but bound to be quieter, especially when pulled taut. Really makes a big difference and looks nautical but nice. Doug Doug King M-17 #404 "Vixen" MSOG Web site: http://msog.brinet.net Email: mailto:msog@brinet.net ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: Tom Smith Subject: M_Boats: Tapping mast/boom for machine screws Date: 21 Mar 2001 11:34:24 -0800 Probably been covered, but as an alternative to using rivets and self-tapping screws to attach mast and boom fixtures, many tap for threaded screws. What size do people normally use, and isn't there a concern about unlike materials (i.e., steel and aluminum), and shouldn't one use some sort of locking material in conjunction? Got to affix a few things in the next couple of weeks and wanted some expert advice. Thanks. Tom Tom Smith and Jane Van Winkle M15/345 -- Chukar Sandpoint, Idaho ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: "Jerry Lehner" Subject: Re: M_Boats: M23 Questions Date: 21 Mar 2001 14:03:24 -0800 Jeff I looked all over for some masthead truck sheaves when mine broke. They were originally made from nylon and I couldn't find the right size. So I had four made out of aluminum stock by a machine shop. They work great but then I found some which would have worked at a hardware store for $2.50 each. Course, I spent alot more at the shop. Anyway, I think your reasons for going all rope are viable and you might find the sheaves you need at the hardware store. Look in the patio door roller section. Jerry #39 "Skitter" >From: Jeff Grudin >Reply-To: montgomery_boats@lists.xmission.com >To: montgomery_boats@lists.xmission.com >Subject: Re: M_Boats: M23 Questions >Date: Wed, 21 Mar 2001 06:58:34 -0800 > >Mike, > >Thanks for your reply. I suppose we would each have our preferences for >various things. > >I would like to switch to rope halyards for several reasons. Mine are >worn out and need to be replaced. The new materials (Sta-Set X) that >are available are very low stretch. I am a cruiser not a racer and >according to a local rigger, these would be low enough in stretch that >it would not be a problem. In addition, there is much less noise when >rope bangs against the metal mast at night. They are lighter so less >weight aloft. They will do much less abrasive damage to the mast over >time. > >5/16 inch was recommended by the same rigger. His reasoning was that it >was large enough to work with comfortably and might fit in the sheaves >without having to change them. Other than raising and lowering the >sails you aren't really working with these lines as you would a sheet so >the size and comfort would not make that big of a difference. > >My understanding is that a halyard or a sheet is a line that is made >from a specific type of rope. The material used to make lines is rope >and it is made my companies such as New England Ropes. In fact if you >look in the West Marine catalogue, the heading for halyards discusses >"Wire to Rope Halyards". > >I believe it is entirely possible that I may have misused the term, but >I believe that I used it properly. > >-- >73 de AC6KW >Jeff Grudin, DVM Web Add: http://www.vdbs.com/~grudin >Ocean Animal Clinic / Cat Clinic of Santa Cruz - Santa Cruz, California >Norcal QRP #1292 QRP-L #16 ARS #351 AR Qrp #131 > _________________________________________________________________ Get your FREE download of MSN Explorer at http://explorer.msn.com ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: Gary Sumner Subject: M_Boats: Unsubscribe Date: 21 Mar 2001 15:22:44 -0800 Can you please let me know how to unsubscribe from this list. Thanks Gary ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: "Keith Diehl" Subject: Re: M_Boats: Unsubscribe Date: 21 Mar 2001 16:57:18 -0700 To subscribe or unsubscribe, send mail to: majordomo@lists.xmission.com with either subscribe montgomery_boats or unsubscribe montgomery_boats in the body of the message. ----- Original Message ----- Sent: Wednesday, March 21, 2001 4:22 PM > Can you please let me know how to unsubscribe from this list. > Thanks > Gary > > > ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: AirEvacLen@aol.com Subject: Re: M_Boats: M23 Questions Date: 21 Mar 2001 19:24:53 EST In a message dated 03/21/2001 12:29:43 AM US Mountain Standard Time, mikit@pioneer-net.com writes: << I can think of several examples of rope on a boat. Bolt rope, tow rope and motor pull rope ( or is that pull cord). Is it throw rope or throw line? I prefer throw rope but I would throw or toss a line. Do they still make soap on a rope or is the nautical version soap on a line? Are there any I've missed? Mike M-17 #369 >> I guess we got " roped " into that one...........heehhee. Lenny ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: AirEvacLen@aol.com Subject: Re: M_Boats: M23 Questions Date: 21 Mar 2001 19:46:32 EST In a message dated 03/21/2001 8:00:33 AM US Mountain Standard Time, grudin@vdbs.com writes: << I believe it is entirely possible that I may have misused the term, but I believe that I used it properly. >> Jeff Call it whatever you like..........It's your boat.........( and we all know what you mean, anyway )............hehehee Lenny ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: Jeff Grudin Subject: M_Boats: M23: Lens replacements? Date: 21 Mar 2001 17:34:27 -0800 You guys are great. Thanks for all the help. I also need to replace the lens on the masthead light. Does anyone know the company the original is. There are no markings on the base and the lens is missing. The port and starboard marker lenses are also faded and I would like to replace these. Anyone know the info on these? -- 73 de AC6KW Jeff Grudin, DVM Web Add: http://www.vdbs.com/~grudin Ocean Animal Clinic / Cat Clinic of Santa Cruz - Santa Cruz, California Montgomery 23 Hull #072 Norcal QRP * QRP-L * ARS * AR Qrp ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: John Fleming Subject: Re: M_Boats: Tapping mast/boom for machine screws Date: 21 Mar 2001 22:25:21 -0700 Tom Smith wrote: > > Probably been covered, but as an alternative to using rivets and > self-tapping screws to attach mast and boom fixtures, many tap for threaded > screws. What size do people normally use, and isn't there a concern about > unlike materials (i.e., steel and aluminum), and shouldn't one use some sort > of locking material in conjunction? Got to affix a few things in the next > couple of weeks and wanted some expert advice. Thanks. Tom Tom, Since you're mostly a Idaho freshwater sailor (I'm assuming there), it probably doesn't matter what kind of metallic fastener you use, the dis-similar metal problem isn't much of one. However, you can buy as a special order aluminum screws. Since the mast is aluminum, and the screws are also, and the mast is thin-walled, make the screws as big as you can to distribute the load. I used these on my spinnaker track, which was fastened about every 4 inches. When I built my new mast, I had the same concerns. I looked all over the place for all sorts of self-clinching and blind specialty fasteners, and I came down to three simple solutions: a) for areas I could reach from the end of the mast, I put mushroom nuts/screws on the inside, backed up with a nylon washer for corrosion protection; this is best because they only form a little blister on the mast inside. I cooked up some sort of stiff thingy that allowed me to push the mushroom nut several feet up into the mast, and drop it into the hole. b) I used aluminum screws for the areas I couldn't reach. This is not so desirable, because they are a protusion into the mast interior, and if you have halyards and wires run internally, you have to be very careful that they don't chafe against the screw ends; the wires should go in a channel or conduit, and when the halyards are tensioned, they should float inside the mast, and not be pushed or flap against the screw heads. If your halyards are external, it doesn't matter. c) in a couple of places, for reasons that escape me now but seemed right at the time, I used normal stainless screws. If you must, the books recommend coating and gooping everything with silicone sealant, everywhere there's dissimilar metal contact. Apparently, silicone sealant is an insulator and inhibits corrosion. The mushroom nuts were stainless (couldn't find aluminum ones), so even though I used the nylon washer, I gooped the part that protruded through the mast. The important point to remember, is don't put multiple holes, of any size, in horizontal rows, and don't put multiple holes close together. Keep the mast strong. The weakest point of the mast are at the two holes where the shrouds attach to the mast, for the M-15, and at the spreaders for the M-17. Offset all the fittings to keep lots of metal between each hole. As for the hole size, I never went past a quarter-inch. The mushroom nuts had a 1/4 OD, and use #10 screws for the ID. Well, that's not quite true. The masthead is attached with 3/8 screws, but it's probably overkill. I have a non-factory masthead, so it seemed the right thing to do. Oh yeah, what I'm calling a mushroom nut is this: it looks like a round-headed screw in profile, but the shaft is hollow, smooth on the outside, and threaded on the inside. Although, typically, the head, while curved, is flatter and wider than a typical round-headed screw. John Fleming M-17: "Star Cross'd" ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: "Peter Jacobs" Subject: Re: M_Boats: Tapping mast/boom for machine screws Date: 22 Mar 2001 08:04:25 -0800 This is a multi-part message in MIME format. ------=_NextPart_000_0015_01C0B2A6.B64BA560 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Another suggestion is to use "riv nuts". They go in from the outside and = self-crimp (something like a pop rivet, then you have this nice neat nut = fastened to the mast for bolting to. They're made of aluminum, too. I = used 4 of these to attach a bike rack to the hatch of our Chev Sprint. = It's easily removable and rock-solid. -Peter- =3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D= Peter Jacobs M17 "Enfin" Victoria BC Canada ------=_NextPart_000_0015_01C0B2A6.B64BA560 Content-Type: text/html; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable
Another suggestion is to use "riv nuts". They go in = from the=20 outside and self-crimp (something like a pop rivet, then you have this = nice neat=20 nut fastened to the mast for bolting to. They're made of aluminum, too. = I used 4=20 of these to attach a bike rack to the hatch of our Chev Sprint. It's = easily=20 removable and rock-solid.
 
-Peter-
=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D= =3D=3D
Peter Jacobs M17 "Enfin"
Victoria BC=20 Canada
------=_NextPart_000_0015_01C0B2A6.B64BA560-- ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: Tom Smith Subject: RE: M_Boats: Tapping mast/boom for machine screws Date: 22 Mar 2001 11:19:16 -0800 Wow, thanks for the advice everyone. Related to John's comments below, I've always had some misgivings about cutting threads in the mast or boom for a fastener due to the thinness of the material and subsequent possible lack of purchase. I might just drop back and do the pop rivet deal. I have no wires or lines running in either the mast or boom, but who's to say I won't someday, so I'll keep the warning against pointy protuberances in mind. T. Tom Smith and Jane Van Winkle M15/345 -- Chukar Sandpoint, Idaho -----Original Message----- Sent: Wednesday, March 21, 2001 9:25 PM Tom Smith wrote: > > Probably been covered, but as an alternative to using rivets and > self-tapping screws to attach mast and boom fixtures, many tap for threaded > screws. What size do people normally use, and isn't there a concern about > unlike materials (i.e., steel and aluminum), and shouldn't one use some sort > of locking material in conjunction? Got to affix a few things in the next > couple of weeks and wanted some expert advice. Thanks. Tom Tom, Since you're mostly a Idaho freshwater sailor (I'm assuming there), it probably doesn't matter what kind of metallic fastener you use, the dis-similar metal problem isn't much of one. However, you can buy as a special order aluminum screws. Since the mast is aluminum, and the screws are also, and the mast is thin-walled, make the screws as big as you can to distribute the load. I used these on my spinnaker track, which was fastened about every 4 inches. When I built my new mast, I had the same concerns. I looked all over the place for all sorts of self-clinching and blind specialty fasteners, and I came down to three simple solutions: a) for areas I could reach from the end of the mast, I put mushroom nuts/screws on the inside, backed up with a nylon washer for corrosion protection; this is best because they only form a little blister on the mast inside. I cooked up some sort of stiff thingy that allowed me to push the mushroom nut several feet up into the mast, and drop it into the hole. b) I used aluminum screws for the areas I couldn't reach. This is not so desirable, because they are a protusion into the mast interior, and if you have halyards and wires run internally, you have to be very careful that they don't chafe against the screw ends; the wires should go in a channel or conduit, and when the halyards are tensioned, they should float inside the mast, and not be pushed or flap against the screw heads. If your halyards are external, it doesn't matter. c) in a couple of places, for reasons that escape me now but seemed right at the time, I used normal stainless screws. If you must, the books recommend coating and gooping everything with silicone sealant, everywhere there's dissimilar metal contact. Apparently, silicone sealant is an insulator and inhibits corrosion. The mushroom nuts were stainless (couldn't find aluminum ones), so even though I used the nylon washer, I gooped the part that protruded through the mast. The important point to remember, is don't put multiple holes, of any size, in horizontal rows, and don't put multiple holes close together. Keep the mast strong. The weakest point of the mast are at the two holes where the shrouds attach to the mast, for the M-15, and at the spreaders for the M-17. Offset all the fittings to keep lots of metal between each hole. As for the hole size, I never went past a quarter-inch. The mushroom nuts had a 1/4 OD, and use #10 screws for the ID. Well, that's not quite true. The masthead is attached with 3/8 screws, but it's probably overkill. I have a non-factory masthead, so it seemed the right thing to do. Oh yeah, what I'm calling a mushroom nut is this: it looks like a round-headed screw in profile, but the shaft is hollow, smooth on the outside, and threaded on the inside. Although, typically, the head, while curved, is flatter and wider than a typical round-headed screw. John Fleming M-17: "Star Cross'd" ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: AirEvacLen@aol.com Subject: Re: M_Boats: M23: Lens replacements? Date: 22 Mar 2001 19:38:38 EST In a message dated 03/21/2001 6:17:41 PM US Mountain Standard Time, grudin@vdbs.com writes: << I also need to replace the lens on the masthead light. Does anyone know the company the original is. There are no markings on the base and the lens is missing. >> Jeff You may have a bit of a problem there.....I have replaced mine with one out of the WM catalog..........but it's not an "exact" replacement. Like most things on older boats, you may have to make do...........or, get a whole new light. I'm considering the latter option...........when I get rich and famous......heheh Lenny ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: "Bill Riker" Subject: RE: M_Boats: Tapping mast/boom for machine screws Date: 22 Mar 2001 22:01:55 -0500 Tom, I spent the $20 for the pop rivet tool and have been happy to have it. Bill Riker M-15 #184 Storm Petrel -----Original Message----- [mailto:owner-montgomery_boats@lists.xmission.com]On Behalf Of Tom Smith Sent: March 22, 2001 2:19 PM Wow, thanks for the advice everyone. Related to John's comments below, I've always had some misgivings about cutting threads in the mast or boom for a fastener due to the thinness of the material and subsequent possible lack of purchase. I might just drop back and do the pop rivet deal. I have no wires or lines running in either the mast or boom, but who's to say I won't someday, so I'll keep the warning against pointy protuberances in mind. T. Tom Smith and Jane Van Winkle M15/345 -- Chukar Sandpoint, Idaho -----Original Message----- Sent: Wednesday, March 21, 2001 9:25 PM Tom Smith wrote: > > Probably been covered, but as an alternative to using rivets and > self-tapping screws to attach mast and boom fixtures, many tap for threaded > screws. What size do people normally use, and isn't there a concern about > unlike materials (i.e., steel and aluminum), and shouldn't one use some sort > of locking material in conjunction? Got to affix a few things in the next > couple of weeks and wanted some expert advice. Thanks. Tom Tom, Since you're mostly a Idaho freshwater sailor (I'm assuming there), it probably doesn't matter what kind of metallic fastener you use, the dis-similar metal problem isn't much of one. However, you can buy as a special order aluminum screws. Since the mast is aluminum, and the screws are also, and the mast is thin-walled, make the screws as big as you can to distribute the load. I used these on my spinnaker track, which was fastened about every 4 inches. When I built my new mast, I had the same concerns. I looked all over the place for all sorts of self-clinching and blind specialty fasteners, and I came down to three simple solutions: a) for areas I could reach from the end of the mast, I put mushroom nuts/screws on the inside, backed up with a nylon washer for corrosion protection; this is best because they only form a little blister on the mast inside. I cooked up some sort of stiff thingy that allowed me to push the mushroom nut several feet up into the mast, and drop it into the hole. b) I used aluminum screws for the areas I couldn't reach. This is not so desirable, because they are a protusion into the mast interior, and if you have halyards and wires run internally, you have to be very careful that they don't chafe against the screw ends; the wires should go in a channel or conduit, and when the halyards are tensioned, they should float inside the mast, and not be pushed or flap against the screw heads. If your halyards are external, it doesn't matter. c) in a couple of places, for reasons that escape me now but seemed right at the time, I used normal stainless screws. If you must, the books recommend coating and gooping everything with silicone sealant, everywhere there's dissimilar metal contact. Apparently, silicone sealant is an insulator and inhibits corrosion. The mushroom nuts were stainless (couldn't find aluminum ones), so even though I used the nylon washer, I gooped the part that protruded through the mast. The important point to remember, is don't put multiple holes, of any size, in horizontal rows, and don't put multiple holes close together. Keep the mast strong. The weakest point of the mast are at the two holes where the shrouds attach to the mast, for the M-15, and at the spreaders for the M-17. Offset all the fittings to keep lots of metal between each hole. As for the hole size, I never went past a quarter-inch. The mushroom nuts had a 1/4 OD, and use #10 screws for the ID. Well, that's not quite true. The masthead is attached with 3/8 screws, but it's probably overkill. I have a non-factory masthead, so it seemed the right thing to do. Oh yeah, what I'm calling a mushroom nut is this: it looks like a round-headed screw in profile, but the shaft is hollow, smooth on the outside, and threaded on the inside. Although, typically, the head, while curved, is flatter and wider than a typical round-headed screw. John Fleming M-17: "Star Cross'd" ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: rc2222@postoffice.pacbell.net Subject: M_Boats: Boom Tent Date: 23 Mar 2001 09:10:46 -0800 Hogin Sails of Alameda, California, custom tailored a Boom Tent for my Montgomery 15, "Really". The designer spent over an hour aboard "Really" taking measurements It's a perfect fit. The design is similar to the Boom Tent on "Kokopelli" as pictured in an article in the Montgomery Owners Newsletter. The Boom Tent allows for lifelines and stearn rail. It's made of Sunbrella and is well built. Rich Cottrell ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: "Russ Browne" Subject: M_Boats: Garageability of M-17's Date: 23 Mar 2001 16:09:43 -0500 I am at the point of replacing my trusty ComPac 19 and moving back to Nebraska from Michigan. There are very limited secure storage facilities in Omaha and I am considering keeping the boat in my garage. The doors will be 8' high, and I would expect to use the factory supplied mast carrier at both bow and stern, though lowered to the point where the mast is nearly resting on the bow pulpit and running parallel to the trailer frame to the stern. Will this work? Bob Eeg measured a boat at the shop and it seems to work, but some live feedback from this learned group would be helpful. I nkow that a 15 will fit the garage door opening, but want to fully consider the 17 . Russ Browne "Windsong" 1990 ComPac 19 #530 Lake St Clair Clinton Township, MI _________________________________________________________________ Get your FREE download of MSN Explorer at http://explorer.msn.com ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: DDAYSTROM@aol.com Subject: Re: M_Boats: Garageability of M-17's Date: 23 Mar 2001 16:23:59 EST Russ, I replaced my Compac 16 with a M17. The M17 will not fit in a "standard" garage. If you have 8ft high doors, my guess is you should have enough room it. My doors are aprox 7' high. -al williams >Will this work? Bob Eeg measured a boat at the shop and >it seems to work, >but some live feedback from this learned group would be >helpful. I nkow that >a 15 will fit the garage door opening, but want to >fully consider the 17 . _________________________________________________________________ Get your FREE download of MSN Explorer at http://explorer.msn.com >> ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: Loyd Myers Subject: M_Boats: re: bottom on my M17 Date: 23 Mar 2001 14:15:16 -0800 Today is the eve of my embarking on the somewhat ambitious project of putting a full epoxy bottom on my M17. I'm using the Interprotectt system from interlux -- similar to what was described, i think by howard, for his centerboard. The question I'm having centers around knowing what is actually on the bottom of the boat now. I know that it has been sandblasted "lightly, by a professional", so there are areas of laminate exposed. But the puzzle is this: the boat has what appears to be a 5" blue boot stripe, but on further investigation, stripe is blue *all the way down to laminate*. Below the strip, toward the keel , is white again,-- presumabley gelcoat, and yet where laminate is exposed there, we see a feathered pattern showing first white, then blue, then glass. This suggests that no matter what the white is, its on top of the blue -- but not all the way to the keel. Near the center, where glass is exposed, you see only white and glasss, but no blue between. So, it looks to me as tho the blue boot stripe is actually Gelcoat, and my question, i suppose mainly for Jerry, would be thus: In 1981, when this boat was made (#334), was the bottom done with a different color gelcoat below the water line, or am I likely to be dealing perhaps with a boat that was already stripped once and had epoxy or gelcoat reapplied. an interesting note: the line between the "boot stripe" and the beige gelcoat above it is extremely sharp -- it looks masked, but if there is any overlap between the blue material and the white -- they appear to be at the exact same level. The reason this matters, is that if the white is some sort of paint, I have to do something probably different than if it is all gelcoat or glass. any thoughts would be greatly appreciated. thanks, Loyd Myers Everett, WA M17 #334 ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: "Russ Browne" Subject: Re: M_Boats: Garageability of M-17's Date: 23 Mar 2001 18:22:03 -0500 Al, thanks. I am concerned, based on Bob's comments, that it might take some jockeying to get it to fit, and I'm too old for that! How do you like your 17? Where do you sail? Russ Browne "Windsong" 1990 ComPac 19 #530 Lake St Clair Clinton Township, MI _________________________________________________________________ Get your FREE download of MSN Explorer at http://explorer.msn.com ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: "Russ Browne" Subject: Re: M_Boats: Garageability of M-17's Date: 23 Mar 2001 18:40:27 -0500 Tod, we are building in a suburb of Omaha and are including an oversized 3-car garage with 8' doors. There is no problem in terms of length or width, but anything over 8' high would require additional excavating to lower the garage floor to accommodate the 9' door without reengineering the roof and truss system. They have not even started digging yet, but should get under way next week, weather permitting. I decided that whatever I end up with has to fit the 8' doors, even if that means going to a Montgomery 15 or ComPac 16 rather than the 17. The move will not take place until we sell our Michigan home, plus closing time, and maybe a month after closing. I also have my ComPac 19 on the market through Great Lakes Sailboats. If I can find a suitable, garageable replace,ment for Windsong before we leave, I really want to sail Lake Erie and the islands. Your stories and pictures have been great for getting me through this long winter. You certainly seem to have gotten a great deal of pleasure out of your 17, and your friend, his 15. I'll keep the you posted on the results of my boat search, whether a new boat or bristol used one, and maybe we can get together for some sailing early in the summer. Russ Browne "Windsong" 1990 ComPac 19 #530 Lake St Clair Clinton Township, MI _________________________________________________________________ Get your FREE download of MSN Explorer at http://explorer.msn.com ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: Howard A Subject: Re: M_Boats: Garageability of M-17's Date: 23 Mar 2001 19:01:45 -0600 Russ: I currently have my boat stashed in a storage shed, which has 8' doors. The bow pulpit just clears, but it would not fit with the mast lashed on the top in travel mode. The shed is, I think, 24' deep, and there is a foot to spare. The wind blows big in Nebraska, but I don't recall that many places to sail, unless you are thinking one of the MO River Reservoirs. Lewis and Clark looks like a great place to sail. Howard M17, #278 ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: "Russ Browne" Subject: Re: M_Boats: Garageability of M-17's Date: 23 Mar 2001 20:53:28 -0500 Howard, many thanks for the info. Looks like a 17 won't work for me. There are a number of smaller lakes around Omaha, ranging from 350 surface acres, through 600+ to 1800, And, of course Lewis and Clark, but also Saylorville and Rathburn near Des Moines. I'll just have to work a little harder to get on the water than a simple trip to the marina and step aboard, but then I learned to sail in Nebraska so I'm going home. Russ Browne "Windsong" 1990 ComPac 19 #530 Lake St Clair Clinton Township, MI _________________________________________________________________ Get your FREE download of MSN Explorer at http://explorer.msn.com ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: "Russ Browne" Subject: M_Boats: Garageability of Montgomery 15 Date: 23 Mar 2001 21:51:21 -0500 Thanks for the quick responses to my questiona about the workability of keeping a 17 in a garage with an 8'high door. The consensus is that it will not work. OK, how about the 15? Anybody keep their 15 in a garage with the mast stowed on the mast carrier/bow pulpit? In the pictures of a 15 in a garage in the brochure on the website, the mast doesn't show up. Since I normally singlehand, a 15 makes more sense, but I will take a sailing buddy or grandchild from time to time and did not want to be too cramped while daysailing. I really appreciate the feedback from this group, I have found it to be one of the most focused and helpful group of sailors on the internet. Thank you. Russ Browne "Windsong" 1990 ComPac 19 #530 Lake St Clair Clinton Township, MI _________________________________________________________________ Get your FREE download of MSN Explorer at http://explorer.msn.com ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: Harvey Wilson Subject: Re: M_Boats: M23: Lens replacements? Date: 23 Mar 2001 22:30:13 -0500 >> get a whole = new light. I'm considering the latter option...........when I get rich a= nd famous......heheh<< Shux, Lenny...they don't cost _that much_. I put a new one from W-M on Stargazer a few years ago. Cost about $25 IIRC. But then, it wasn't the= ir fanciest one...just a nice one. Harvey/Ga M-17 Stargazer #294 ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: Loyd Myers Subject: Re: M_Boats: re: bottom on my M17 Date: 23 Mar 2001 20:05:58 -0800 Tod, Your explanation sounds quite plausible, so i'm going to proceed with the assumption that i'm dealing only with remaining gelcoat -- i'll let you know how it turns out loyd "htmills@bright.net" wrote: > I'm not Jerry, but this is my best guess. > > I would guess that the mold was masked off over the boot stripe and the > primary gelcoat color shot. Then I would guess that the boot stripe > color shot. It would have been allowed to overspray onto the primary > gelcoat and maybe even purposefully an extra coat shot over it because > I think having a dark color next to the laminate makes it easier to see > trapped air bubbles. > > Tod ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: "Joe Kidd" Subject: Re: M_Boats: Garageability of Montgomery 15 Date: 23 Mar 2001 20:52:57 -0800 Russ, My M15 easily fits in our garage (with room left over for the admirable's Subaru wagen). The garage has a two-car, standard 7 x 16 door which has been adjusted to open completely above the door frame. The fore and aft mast carriers were shortening (the mast rides level and barely clears the bow pulpit) and the boat clears the door frame by less than 1-inch... but it clears. As you described your need for a boat that is easily singlehanded but has adequate room and comfort for a grandkid or friend, I thought, "Russ, you really don't have to look any further than an M15. An M15 would be the ideal boat for your sailing requirements, plus it is well-built, beautiful to look at and a hoot to sail." You are right. The Montgomery owners on this list are a class group of sailors... just like their boats. Joe Kidd M15 #207 "Poco A Poco" ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: Bob Olson Subject: Re: M_Boats: Garageability of Montgomery 15 Date: 23 Mar 2001 21:13:50 -0800 Russ, Here's a shot of my M-15 in my standard-sized garage -- 7 ft door. http://msog.brinet.net/boatos/tod_shots1/tod_shots.htm (scroll down) I do have to drop the tail end of the mast to get it in. I just drop the stern mast crutch down to the bottom rudder hinge hole and let it balance there precariously. You shouldn't have a any problem with an 8 ft door. I plan to build a carport for my boat this summer. I want my garage back-- no place to work! Don't hesitate, you'll love the M-15. Bob olson M-15 #296 "Piccolo" >Thanks for the quick responses to my questiona about the workability of >keeping a 17 in a garage with an 8'high door. The consensus is that it will >not work. > >OK, how about the 15? Anybody keep their 15 in a garage with the mast stowed >on the mast carrier/bow pulpit? In the pictures of a 15 in a garage in the >brochure on the website, the mast doesn't show up. > >Since I normally singlehand, a 15 makes more sense, but I will take a >sailing buddy or grandchild from time to time and did not want to be too >cramped while daysailing. > >I really appreciate the feedback from this group, I have found it to be one >of the most focused and helpful group of sailors on the internet. Thank you. > > >Russ Browne >"Windsong" >1990 ComPac 19 #530 >Lake St Clair >Clinton Township, MI > >_________________________________________________________________ >Get your FREE download of MSN Explorer at http://explorer.msn.com > > ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: Jeff Grudin Subject: M_Boats: Question for M-23 owners. Date: 23 Mar 2001 21:26:50 -0800 I need to re-mount the centerboard winch. The previous owner has taken it off and for some reason cut the top where it was mounted. I am going to replace the cable and then re-mount the winch on a teak block on top of the trunk. I need to know the exact measurement from the vertical wall (toward the stern) to the sternside edge of the winch. I would like to replace it as close to the original position as possible. If someone could measure theirs and send me the info, I would sure appreciate it. Thanks. -- 73 de AC6KW Jeff Grudin, DVM Web Add: http://www.vdbs.com/~grudin Ocean Animal Clinic / Cat Clinic of Santa Cruz - Santa Cruz, California Norcal QRP #1292 QRP-L #16 ARS #351 AR Qrp #131 ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: "Roberta & Mark Dvorscak" Subject: Re: M_Boats: Garageability of M-17's Date: 23 Mar 2001 23:54:33 -0800 Russ, I squeezed my 1983 M17 into a carport with an 8' 5" vertical clearance with a few inches to spare. I did throw together a temporary mast support that actually carries the mast below the bow pulpit. (I just nailed together 2 scrap pieces of 2X6 lumber with a notch cut in one to support the mast) The top of the bow pulpit is just under 8' so I think I could manage with only 8' of vertical clearance but it would be very tight indeed. The length overall could be the limiting factor. I measure approximately 27' from the tongue of the trailer back to the furthest point on the mast ( including the masthead light). I could, however, slide the mast forward about 3.5' (without projecting beyond the tongue of the trailer) thereby reducing my overall length to 23.5 feet. So, I believe my M17 and modified trailrite trailer (oh yeah, I forgot that I have a torsion axle that may lower the overall height of the trailer and boat. I'll run out and measure again) could fit into a garage space that was 24' long with an 8' vertical clearance. It's 16" from the ground to the bottom of the keel. I don't know how that number compares to other trailers. I hope this helps somehow. Mark Dvorscak M17 #400 GRACE ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: "Russ Browne" Subject: Re: M_Boats: Garageability of Montgomery 15 Date: 24 Mar 2001 07:14:45 -0500 Tod, thanks. I'll have over 25' of length to work with. Your comments about the engine are on target,too. Like you, I have the 5HP Honda on my ComPac. Nice, but really haevy. I do not keep the engine on the boat while trailering. Figure it's too much weight trying to break the transom! Russ Browne "Windsong" 1990 ComPac 19 #530 Lake St Clair Clinton Township, MI _________________________________________________________________ Get your FREE download of MSN Explorer at http://explorer.msn.com ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: "Russ Browne" Subject: Re: M_Boats: Garageability of Montgomery 15 Date: 24 Mar 2001 07:25:30 -0500 Joe, thanks for the detailed info...and the comments on the 15. For the lakes which will be available to me, it sounds like the 15 is a better choice, over and above the garageability issue. Russ Browne "Windsong" 1990 ComPac 19 #530 Lake St Clair Clinton Township, MI _________________________________________________________________ Get your FREE download of MSN Explorer at http://explorer.msn.com ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: "Russ Browne" Subject: Re: M_Boats: Garageability of Montgomery 15 Date: 24 Mar 2001 07:33:10 -0500 Bob, the picture and your comments are much appreciated. It does fit! Looks like you really enjoy your boat. I understand the issue about garage space. That's why, for what should be our last home, we decided to go with the 3-car, oversize door garage...so we could keep the cars and boat without undue crowding. First time in 45 years! Thanks, again. Russ Browne "Windsong" 1990 ComPac 19 #530 Lake St Clair Clinton Township, MI _________________________________________________________________ Get your FREE download of MSN Explorer at http://explorer.msn.com ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: "Russ Browne" Subject: Re: M_Boats: Garageability of M-17's Date: 24 Mar 2001 07:39:00 -0500 Mark, it really does help. It sounds like the 17, beautiful as it is, is just too much boat for the space I have available. The 15 seems like a better fit, and, since I daysail only (99%) of the time, the smaller boat also satisfies my sailing needs at lower cost, while preserving the fun of it all. Thanks. Russ Browne "Windsong" 1990 ComPac 19 #530 Lake St Clair Clinton Township, MI _________________________________________________________________ Get your FREE download of MSN Explorer at http://explorer.msn.com ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: Sandyal55@aol.com Subject: Re: M_Boats: Tapping mast/boom for machine screws Date: 24 Mar 2001 09:32:13 EST --part1_103.bb0bab.27ee09ed_boundary Content-Type: text/plain; charset="US-ASCII" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit I just returned from a trip and have been catching up on the posts. One thing that I didn't see mentioned was "Never-Sieze" . After 30 years in the water treatment business, I've grown to love this product. It's used where dissimilar metals make contact, in a corrosive environment. It should be used in a freshwater boat too. SS and aluminum in moisture (fresh or salt) will corrode the anodic metal (aluminum) . Several years ago, I tapped holes in my mast and boom to mount various items. I had to remove one after 5 years and it unscrewed very easily and it never loosened on it's own. Even if you use SS pop rivets, use the "Never-sieze" to prevent corrosion. I'm sure it's available in hardware stores or a plumbing supply. Have fun; Sandy --part1_103.bb0bab.27ee09ed_boundary Content-Type: text/html; charset="US-ASCII" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit I just returned from a trip and have been catching up on the posts. One thing
that I didn't see mentioned was "Never-Sieze" .
After 30 years in the water treatment business, I've grown to love this
product. It's used where dissimilar metals make contact, in a corrosive
environment. It should be used in a freshwater boat too. SS and aluminum in
moisture (fresh or salt) will corrode the anodic metal (aluminum) . Several
years ago, I tapped holes in my mast and boom to mount various items. I had
to remove one after 5 years and it unscrewed very easily and it never
loosened on it's own. Even if you use SS pop rivets, use the "Never-sieze" to
prevent corrosion. I'm sure it's available in hardware stores or a plumbing
supply.
Have fun; Sandy --part1_103.bb0bab.27ee09ed_boundary-- ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: Sandyal55@aol.com Subject: Re: M_Boats: squeeky fenders Date: 24 Mar 2001 10:11:54 EST --part1_103.bb0baf.27ee133a_boundary Content-Type: text/plain; charset="US-ASCII" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Some members of our sailing club use fender covers, either store bought or made from old terrycloth towels. They also quiet those squeeky fenders at night. Sandy --part1_103.bb0baf.27ee133a_boundary Content-Type: text/html; charset="US-ASCII" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Some members of our sailing club use fender covers, either store bought or
made from old terrycloth towels. They also quiet those squeeky fenders at
night.
Sandy --part1_103.bb0baf.27ee133a_boundary-- ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: Don Olson Subject: Re: M_Boats: Garageability of Montgomery 15 Date: 24 Mar 2001 08:51:50 -0700 Hi Russ, As the other M15 owners mentioned, there is no problem in fitting a 15 into a standard 7 or 8 foot garage or carport. The rear mast crutch that came with the boat was to high for my carport but I solved that problem by making up a telescoping mast crutch that is in the down position for the carport and trailering and in the up position for stepping the mast. The front mast crutch on the current trailers can also be raised or lowered. Also on the current trailers, the tongue extender works both ways so the tongue can be "retracted" so as not to stick out so much. Don Olson M15 "Puffer" Phoenix, Az ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: "Theo Petron" Subject: Re: M_Boats: Question for M-23 owners. Date: 24 Mar 2001 11:22:01 -0600 Jeff, My winch is in the starboard lazerette, not on the trunk. Theo M23 "Sails Increase" #026 Jeff Grudin wrote: > I need to re-mount the centerboard winch. The previous owner has taken > it off and for some reason cut the top where it was mounted. I am going > to replace the cable and then re-mount the winch on a teak block on top > of the trunk. > > I need to know the exact measurement from the vertical wall (toward the > stern) to the sternside edge of the winch. I would like to replace it > as close to the original position as possible. If someone could measure > theirs and send me the info, I would sure appreciate it. > > Thanks. > -- > 73 de AC6KW > Jeff Grudin, DVM Web Add: http://www.vdbs.com/~grudin > Ocean Animal Clinic / Cat Clinic of Santa Cruz - Santa Cruz, California > Norcal QRP #1292 QRP-L #16 ARS #351 AR Qrp #131 ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: AirEvacLen@aol.com Subject: Re: M_Boats: Question for M-23 owners. Date: 24 Mar 2001 13:22:49 EST In a message dated 03/24/2001 10:30:18 AM US Mountain Standard Time, theop@uswest.net writes: << Jeff, My winch is in the starboard lazerette, not on the trunk. Theo >> Theo You're kidding............right? That must be some kind of modification.........Jeff, I'll try and get a measurement for you from mine.......It's on the trunk. Lenny ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: "Russ Browne" Subject: Re: M_Boats: Garageability of Montgomery 15 Date: 24 Mar 2001 13:29:17 -0500 Don, thanks for the input. You and the other Montgomery owners have been extremely helpful and I appreciate it. It is so much better to find out in advance that something fits or not, rather than a belated "oops!". Russ Browne "Windsong" 1990 ComPac 19 #530 Lake St Clair Clinton Township, MI _________________________________________________________________ Get your FREE download of MSN Explorer at http://explorer.msn.com ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: "Morris, Giles" Subject: RE: M_Boats: Garageability of Montgomery 15 Date: 24 Mar 2001 12:28:56 -0600 >Since I normally singlehand, a 15 makes more sense, but I will take a >sailing buddy or grandchild from time to time and did not want to be too >cramped while daysailing. I have an M-15, and for daysailing with two adults plus one child (pre-teen) the cockpit is comfortable. With three adults it's cozy and with four it's too crowded. Giles ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: "Russ Browne" Subject: RE: M_Boats: Garageability of Montgomery 15 Date: 24 Mar 2001 13:39:35 -0500 Giles, Ithanks for the sailing "capacity" info. Normally, I'll be solo. From time to time, one other adult. When I take grandchildren, as long as they are under 10 years of age, I like to have one of their parents along for moral support and another set of eyes to watch the kids. Sounds like a 15 will work. Russ Browne "Windsong" 1990 ComPac 19 #530 Lake St Clair Clinton Township, MI _________________________________________________________________ Get your FREE download of MSN Explorer at http://explorer.msn.com ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: Richard Lane Subject: Re: M_Boats: Question for M-23 owners. Date: 24 Mar 2001 22:52:57 -0800 1979 M23 Sadhana's c'board winch is a Merriman (chrome over bronze) mounted on the teak c'board trunk cap piece. Dick Theo Petron wrote: > Jeff, > My winch is in the starboard lazerette, not on the trunk. > Theo > M23 "Sails Increase" > #026 > > Jeff Grudin wrote: > > > I need to re-mount the centerboard winch. The previous owner has taken > > it off and for some reason cut the top where it was mounted. I am going > > to replace the cable and then re-mount the winch on a teak block on top > > of the trunk. > > > > I need to know the exact measurement from the vertical wall (toward the > > stern) to the sternside edge of the winch. I would like to replace it > > as close to the original position as possible. If someone could measure > > theirs and send me the info, I would sure appreciate it. > > > > Thanks. > > -- > > 73 de AC6KW > > Jeff Grudin, DVM Web Add: http://www.vdbs.com/~grudin > > Ocean Animal Clinic / Cat Clinic of Santa Cruz - Santa Cruz, California > > Norcal QRP #1292 QRP-L #16 ARS #351 AR Qrp #131 ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: AirEvacLen@aol.com Subject: Re: M_Boats: Question for M-23 owners. Date: 25 Mar 2001 10:24:41 EST In a message dated 03/24/2001 11:51:51 PM US Mountain Standard Time, rqlhgl@wt.net writes: << 1979 M23 Sadhana's c'board winch is a Merriman (chrome over bronze) mounted on the teak c'board trunk cap piece. Dick >> Dick Would you know if they are still available? I need the spring that holds the ratchet release............ thanks, Lenny ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: Sandyal55@aol.com Subject: Re: M_Boats: Question for M-23 owners. Date: 25 Mar 2001 11:33:28 EST --part1_66.d4634aa.27ef77d8_boundary Content-Type: text/plain; charset="US-ASCII" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Hey Lenny; I got one from Minney's a few years back for $25. (The whole winch) I have seen them for over $100 in stores in Ca. Can't remember where. Sorry Sandy --part1_66.d4634aa.27ef77d8_boundary Content-Type: text/html; charset="US-ASCII" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Hey Lenny; I got one from Minney's a few years back for $25. (The whole
winch) I have seen them for over $100 in stores in Ca. Can't remember where.
Sorry

Sandy --part1_66.d4634aa.27ef77d8_boundary-- ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: AirEvacLen@aol.com Subject: Re: M_Boats: Question for M-23 owners. Date: 25 Mar 2001 13:15:15 EST In a message dated 03/25/2001 9:33:51 AM US Mountain Standard Time, Sandyal55@aol.com writes: << Hey Lenny; I got one from Minney's a few years back for $25. (The whole winch) I have seen them for over $100 in stores in Ca. Can't remember where. Sorry Sandy >> Sandy Luck of the Irish.......I guess.............hehehe Lenny ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: AirEvacLen@aol.com Subject: M_Boats: Re: M-23 C/B Winch Date: 25 Mar 2001 13:27:45 EST Jeff From the point at which the trunk joins the icebox...........( forms a 90 degree angle) come forward along the trunk 6 inches to the center of the shaft on the winch.......That should make it easier than trying to position the mounting flange.........So there it is. Just be sure and drill the hole in the teak block large enough to allow for movement of the pendant. It looks about like a 1 inch hole. Pre drill the teak block and the trunk, fasten with # 12 stainless wood screws, and don't forget the 3M 4200 sealant for the base. Water really sloshes around in the trunk when things are a bit choppy............Go get 'em, Tiger....... Lenny ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: jerry montgomery Subject: Re: M_Boats: Question for M-23 owners. Date: 25 Mar 2001 15:07:14 +0000 As original equipment on the 23 we started out using the little RC Marine winch for the CB. That's probably the chrome winch that you are talking about. RC went out of business about 1980, and we put a trailer winch on a couple of boats, then the RC assets (and maybe the name) were purchased by an Australian company and the winch was made by them. When they became available we started using them again. I don't know if they are now being made, but Bob Eeg is looking for a source for them or something similar for the "new" 23, so stay in touch with him. Jerry AirEvacLen@aol.com wrote: > > In a message dated 03/25/2001 9:33:51 AM US Mountain Standard Time, > Sandyal55@aol.com writes: > > << Hey Lenny; I got one from Minney's a few years back for $25. (The whole > winch) I have seen them for over $100 in stores in Ca. Can't remember where. > Sorry > > Sandy > >> > Sandy > Luck of the Irish.......I guess.............hehehe > > Lenny ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: jerry montgomery Subject: Re: M_Boats: Tapping mast/boom for machine screws Date: 25 Mar 2001 15:15:18 +0000 Hi Tom Drilling and tapping works fine in alum8inum. For #8 and 10 maching screws, be sure to use 8/32 and 10/32, not the coarser 24's. For 1/4" use 1/4-20's. The fine threads hold better in thin material like a mast tube. Get a good USA or Japanese tap and be sure to use the right size of pilot bit. See you at the deathtr OOPS, I mean Potter race. Jerry Tom Smith wrote: > > Wow, thanks for the advice everyone. Related to John's comments below, I've > always had some misgivings about cutting threads in the mast or boom for a > fastener due to the thinness of the material and subsequent possible lack of > purchase. I might just drop back and do the pop rivet deal. I have no > wires or lines running in either the mast or boom, but who's to say I won't > someday, so I'll keep the warning against pointy protuberances in mind. T. > > Tom Smith and Jane Van Winkle > M15/345 -- Chukar > Sandpoint, Idaho > > -----Original Message----- > From: John Fleming [mailto:JFleming1231@earthlink.net] > Sent: Wednesday, March 21, 2001 9:25 PM > To: montgomery_boats@lists.xmission.com > Subject: Re: M_Boats: Tapping mast/boom for machine screws > > Tom Smith wrote: > > > > Probably been covered, but as an alternative to using rivets and > > self-tapping screws to attach mast and boom fixtures, many tap for > threaded > > screws. What size do people normally use, and isn't there a concern about > > unlike materials (i.e., steel and aluminum), and shouldn't one use some > sort > > of locking material in conjunction? Got to affix a few things in the next > > couple of weeks and wanted some expert advice. Thanks. Tom > > Tom, > Since you're mostly a Idaho freshwater sailor (I'm assuming there), it > probably doesn't matter what kind of metallic fastener you use, the > dis-similar metal problem isn't much of one. > > However, you can buy as a special order aluminum screws. Since the mast > is aluminum, and the screws are also, and the mast is thin-walled, make > the screws as big as you can to distribute the load. I used these on my > spinnaker track, which was fastened about every 4 inches. > > When I built my new mast, I had the same concerns. I looked all over > the place for all sorts of self-clinching and blind specialty fasteners, > and I came down to three simple solutions: > > a) for areas I could reach from the end of the mast, I put mushroom > nuts/screws on the inside, backed up with a nylon washer for corrosion > protection; this is best because they only form a little blister on the > mast inside. I cooked up some sort of stiff thingy that allowed me to > push the mushroom nut several feet up into the mast, and drop it into > the hole. > > b) I used aluminum screws for the areas I couldn't reach. This is not > so desirable, because they are a protusion into the mast interior, and > if you have halyards and wires run internally, you have to be very > careful that they don't chafe against the screw ends; the wires should > go in a channel or conduit, and when the halyards are tensioned, they > should float inside the mast, and not be pushed or flap against the > screw heads. If your halyards are external, it doesn't matter. > > c) in a couple of places, for reasons that escape me now but seemed > right at the time, I used normal stainless screws. If you must, the > books recommend coating and gooping everything with silicone sealant, > everywhere there's dissimilar metal contact. Apparently, silicone > sealant is an insulator and inhibits corrosion. > > The mushroom nuts were stainless (couldn't find aluminum ones), so even > though I used the nylon washer, I gooped the part that protruded through > the mast. > > The important point to remember, is don't put multiple holes, of any > size, in horizontal rows, and don't put multiple holes close together. > Keep the mast strong. The weakest point of the mast are at the two > holes where the shrouds attach to the mast, for the M-15, and at the > spreaders for the M-17. Offset all the fittings to keep lots of metal > between each hole. > > As for the hole size, I never went past a quarter-inch. The mushroom > nuts had a 1/4 OD, and use #10 screws for the ID. Well, that's not > quite true. The masthead is attached with 3/8 screws, but it's probably > overkill. I have a non-factory masthead, so it seemed the right thing > to do. > > Oh yeah, what I'm calling a mushroom nut is this: it looks like a > round-headed screw in profile, but the shaft is hollow, smooth on the > outside, and threaded on the inside. Although, typically, the head, > while curved, is flatter and wider than a typical round-headed screw. > > John Fleming > M-17: "Star Cross'd" ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: jerry montgomery Subject: Re: M_Boats: M23 Questions Date: 25 Mar 2001 15:23:07 +0000 We use 3/8" thick aluminum sheaves in the 23; the same as those in the 17 and 15. They are scored for line (rope, to some of you) so will work fine for either wire or line. 5/15 line works most smoothly, but 3/8 is easier to get a grip on, either on hands or a winch. Spliced wire/line is best for a variety of reasons, but expensive. Jerry Harvey Wilson wrote: > > HI Jeff.. > > Methinks you'll need to replace the sheaves if you go to all rope halyards. > > I've never done it myself,but may, someday. I've read that the wire sheave > has a different type of groove, and that it would eventually cut the rope > if it wasn't replaced. > > Check with W-Marine or BoatUS' rigging shop. W-M has a tech support phone > line , and is on the internet, so it should be a quick answer. > > Regards, and welcome to the family....what's your hull number ?? > > Harvey/Ga > > M-17 Stargazer #294 ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: Bob Olson Subject: M_Boats: FYI-Seattle Potter Rendezvous Date: 25 Mar 2001 16:23:04 -0800 Just in case anyone around Seattle is interested, the Potter folk have a rendezvous planned for April 20-22. (see copied message below) Bob Olson M-15 #296 "Piccolo" >Date: Sat, 24 Mar 2001 13:31:45 -0800 >From: tim spofford >Subject: Fwd: Directions, maps, charts & info for April 20-22, 2001, Rendezvous >For any non-local folk who may be interested in the the Northwest Potters' >Seattle sail next month: >See http://spof.org/nwpotters/shilshole/ >or link from the official Northwest Potter site >at http://www.tx3.net/~ej/nwp.html > >Greetings, all! > >Maps, charts and directions are at the above URL. > >Our current thoughts are as described below. However, the nature of these >things is that the most important planning will be our plan to stay >flexible! This deal should be anything BUT rigid and I'm sure the >decisions will be by consensus, when we're all together, and will take >into account weather, comfort levels, and common sense. > >Friday will likely be the least "group-y" on the water, since folks will >be arriving throughout the day, and probably hanging out at the dock to >meet and greet. I would expect some sailing for those who want to but it >will be of a pick-up nature. For Saturday and Sunday, we have three >principal options: (a) Bainbridge and back, (b) along the waterfront >(stopping short of the ferry terminal, thank you), and/or (c) as a group, >through the locks to "down town" sailing in Lake Union or, depending on >time, continuing on to Lake Washington. Again, see >http://spof.org/nwpotters/shilshole/ for charts. > >Based on past conversations on the list, there may be sufficient >discomfort with the locks or with the relatively long haul under power or >tow to do it. On the other hand, what better time to add a tick to your >yet-to-do list than to lock through with a group of old and new >friends? Option B should be a fun alternative, with Seattle skyscrapers >for a backdrop. If possible, we'd like to do Bainbridge on Saturday since >people will be under greater time constraints on Sunday but since it >involves more open water and in consideration of our broad range of >experience and skill, weather will be a bigger consideration than with the >other two options. If anyone here has personal knowledge of the >short-term docking situation in Eagle Harbor for lunch in Winslow, please >chime in. Otherwise, we'll research it and see what we can line up in advance. > >These are all new sailing experiences for me as well so if anyone has >better information or suggestions, or cautions based on information I >don't have, most definitely speak up please. This is and will continue to >be a group exercise. > >One other item: If there's anybody reading who is a Potter wannabe (i.e., >you just found YOUR Potter yet), or think the tow to Seattle is more than >you're up for, please speak up and we'll do our best to find a ride for >you as crew. If attendance lives up to our expectations, this shouldn't >prove to be a problem. > >For the Seattle host committee... > >Tim Spofford >P19 #611 >Kirkland, Washington >http://spof.org/nwpotters/ ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: Bob Olson Subject: M_Boats: Purplexed Date: 25 Mar 2001 16:46:05 -0800 Got a quetion for you guys with M-15's...What do you tow with? I'm tired of borrowing my wife's Nissan Quest mini-van to tow my boat. Thinking of trading in my Nissan Sentra 200sx ser on something I can tow my M-15 with that's as small as I can get away with. (I'd also be using it for commuting so good gas mileage is important) Some vehicles I've been thinking about; Subaru Forrester Subaru Impreza wagon Isuzu Rodeo Sport Toyota Tacoma or put a hitch on my Sentra and go ahead and fry the clutch. Or buy a cheap Astro van or pick-up just for towing and hauling junk. Also, it'd be interesting to know if any of you use a manual in your towing rig. Any thoughts? Bob Olson M-15 #296 "Piccolo" ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: rc2222@postoffice.pacbell.net Subject: M_Boats: tow vechicle Date: 25 Mar 2001 17:11:51 -0800 Bob: We have a similar problem. I tow my M15 with my wife's Nissan Quest. She's getting tired of it. I too, want something as small as practical but it has to be able to tow in the Sierra Nevadas. I burned out the transmission on my old Taurus Wagon a couple years ago. Rich Cottrell ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: "Joe Kidd" Subject: Re: M_Boats: tow vechicle Date: 25 Mar 2001 18:20:55 -0800 Bob & Rich, I tow my M15 in the Sierra Nevadas with an 88' 4x4 Isuzu Trooper which has a 126 hp 4-cylinder engine and 5-speed transmission. I hardly know the boat and trailer are behind me except on long, steep grades. My trusty old Trooper has over 135,000 trouble-free miles on the original engine and has had no clutch or tranny problems. The Trooper (or any similar sized SUV tow rig) is more than adequate. The four-wheel-drive (especially in low range) is really handy when pulling up a steep, wet, slick launch ramp. Some front-wheel drive compact cars are barely adequate, especially in the transmission department. A number of people have had tranny failures even in midsized tow cars like Ford Taurus or Dodge Caravans (both manual and automatic trannies). A safe bet -- almost any compact pickup works great. We have seen a number of pictures of the compact truck Jerry Montgomery used (uses) when making deliveries. Joe Kidd M15 #207 "Poco A Poco" ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: AirEvacLen@aol.com Subject: Re: M_Boats: tow vechicle Date: 25 Mar 2001 21:25:32 EST In a message dated 03/25/2001 6:09:39 PM US Mountain Standard Time, rc2222@postoffice.pacbell.net writes: << I too, want something as small as practical but it has to be able to tow in the Sierra Nevadas. I burned out the transmission on my old Taurus Wagon a couple years ago. >> Well guys, here's the deal.............WHATEVER you tow with, make sure it's got the huevos to do the job........Check the manufacture specs for towing capacity. Then add about 500 # for misc gear. That's for flat land towing......if you're gonna go from Reno to Tahoe........You're gonna need some ponies. I tow my M-23 with an F-250, 460 CI. V8...........I wouldn't even consider anything smaller............ Lenny ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: AirEvacLen@aol.com Subject: Re: M_Boats: Question for M-23 owners. Date: 25 Mar 2001 21:31:17 EST In a message dated 03/25/2001 3:00:00 PM US Mountain Standard Time, jmbn@innercite.com writes: << I don't know if they are now being made, but Bob Eeg is looking for a source for them or something similar for the "new" 23, so stay in touch with him. >> Thanks, Jerry...........sounds like a job for the dog watch,,,,,,,,,heheh. Lenny ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: "Roberta & Mark Dvorscak" Subject: Re: M_Boats: tow vechicle Date: 25 Mar 2001 19:23:06 -0800 I second Joe's opinion about compact pickups for M15 towing. You want something with a real frame (unibody construction just doesn't make the grade in the towing dept). An Astro/Safari van would work too. If I had a= n M15 I'd tow with a Toyota pickup with manual transmission (manuals seem t= o hold up better under the strains of towing unless you go to the heavy dut= y automatics on some full size pickups and SUV's). That's my 2=A2. By the w= ay I tow my M17 with an older Toyota 4X4 with a 150hp V-6. It's fine most of t= he time but is a little lacking in the power and torque dept. on some of the hills we have to climb to reach water here in southern Oregon. One of the= se days maybe my wife will buy a Toyota Sequoia (like one other lucky M17 ow= ner who shall remain nameless) and then I'll be in Fat City. Mark Dvorscak M17 #400 GRACE ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: "Joe Kidd" Subject: Re: M_Boats: tow vechicle Date: 25 Mar 2001 19:36:31 -0800 Lenny, You could pull a whole fleet of M15's with that 250 and very few drivers would challenge you for the fast lane during a commute. Joe Kidd ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: sparsons@canby.com (Steve Parsons) Subject: M_Boats: Hello Lloyd Date: 25 Mar 2001 19:51:58 -0800 Lloyd, It was good to meet you the other day. I hope that all went well with getting the M17 to MacMinville. I was lucky, and managed to make it out of West Marine with only $22 out of my green locker. Regards, Steve ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: "Roberta & Mark Dvorscak" Subject: M_Boats: Hey Steve Date: 25 Mar 2001 19:45:28 -0800 Steve, How is it possible to only spend 0.22 SBU (standard boat units 1= $100.00)??!! Did you only buy a hose clamp or something? Or did you just leave them a tip for allowing you to stroll through their store and touch things? I can never get out that cheaply! ;-) Mark Dvorscak ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: "Randy Watkins" Subject: Re: M_Boats: Purplexed Date: 25 Mar 2001 21:52:20 -0600 hello Bob,=20 a good question, I use two different vehicles: 1. a 1982 Totota Cressida wagon, straight 6 and back wheel drive, = automatic, it does a good job 2. Ford Explorer - v6 4.0- it also does a good job I use it for longer distances, you hardly know the boat is behind you. I think I would go with a 6 cyl. and rear wheel drive, we had a Taurus = Wagon which I also basically wore out with towing chores. Regards, Randy W. M15#194 <<< bobo4u@earthlink.net 3/25 6:44p >>> Got a quetion for you guys with M-15's...What do you tow with? I'm = tired=20 of borrowing my wife's Nissan Quest mini-van to tow my boat. Thinking = of=20 trading in my Nissan Sentra 200sx ser on something I can tow my M-15 = with=20 that's as small as I can get away with. (I'd also be using it for=20 commuting so good gas mileage is important) Some vehicles I've been=20 thinking about; Subaru Forrester Subaru Impreza wagon Isuzu Rodeo Sport Toyota Tacoma or=20 put a hitch on my Sentra and go ahead and fry the clutch. Or buy a cheap Astro van or pick-up just for towing and hauling junk. Also, it'd be interesting to know if any of you use a manual in your=20 towing rig. Any thoughts? Bob Olson M-15 #296 "Piccolo" =20 ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: John Fleming Subject: Re: M_Boats: tow vechicle Date: 25 Mar 2001 20:16:08 -0700 And if you tow heavy stuff in hot environments like Arizona/Texas (like Lenny does when he comes to California for some salt-water sailing) and you have an automatic transmission, a transmission cooler is a very good idea. Going slow up hills with a heavy load is just death to transmissions (think $1000 rebuild). Just about all transmissions and cars can be retrofitted with this important device. In some ways, under some conditions, for some models, the towing limit of a car is determined by the automatic transmission capabilities, and not the rear axle ratio or the horsepower. John Fleming M-17: "Star Cross'd" AirEvacLen@aol.com wrote: > > In a message dated 03/25/2001 6:09:39 PM US Mountain Standard Time, > rc2222@postoffice.pacbell.net writes: > > << I too, want something as small as practical but it has to be able > to tow in the Sierra Nevadas. I burned out the transmission on > my old Taurus Wagon a couple years ago. > >> > > Well guys, here's the deal.............WHATEVER you tow with, make sure it's > got the huevos to do the job........Check the manufacture specs for towing > capacity. Then add about 500 # for misc gear. That's for flat land > towing......if you're gonna go from Reno to Tahoe........You're gonna need > some ponies. > I tow my M-23 with an F-250, 460 CI. V8...........I wouldn't even > consider anything smaller............ > > Lenny ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: Jeff Grudin Subject: M_Boats: Update on refit progress Date: 25 Mar 2001 20:35:49 -0800 I found a replacement lens for the original mast head light in the M23. If anyone is interested, it is a Perko 248F. I found it in a tiny chandlery sitting on the shelf just waiting for me. Had a long day with the mast, but I got the VHF antenna and windex mounted. I ended up pulling the masthead light wire out. It is held centered in the mast with foam blocks. These prevent just passing the coax down the mast. I was able to run the coax in the same foam blocks. It came out very nice, and should be pretty quiet at night. As Jerry noted the 5/16 rope/line halyards will work just fine with the original sheaves. I cut and fitted the teak block for the CB winch. Thanks Lenny for the measurements. I think that is very close to where I would have put it just looking at it. I wanted to remove the mast base and put some bedding compound in the screw holes as there is evidence of water leakage along these screws. the fore-port bolt appears to have a nut within the wood of the bulkhead. Does anyone know of an easy way to get to this? Does anyone know the color of the original reddish stain that was used on the interior teak? Was it stained and then varnished? I will need to do some restoration on some of the interior teak. -- 73 de AC6KW Jeff Grudin, DVM Web Add: http://www.vdbs.com/~grudin Ocean Animal Clinic / Cat Clinic of Santa Cruz - Santa Cruz, California Norcal QRP #1292 QRP-L #16 ARS #351 AR Qrp #131 ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: Richard Lane Subject: Re: M_Boats: Question for M-23 owners. Date: 25 Mar 2001 22:47:28 -0800 I believe Merriman went out of business some 9 yrs ago but you could check with Minney's Yatch Surplus in S.Cal or Popeye's in Vancouver BC. The only other place I saw one used was on a little SF Bay built yawl at the Port Townsend Wooden Boat Festival around 1994. I would think you could make a replacement spring pretty easily. Regards, Dick AirEvacLen@aol.com wrote: > In a message dated 03/24/2001 11:51:51 PM US Mountain Standard Time, > rqlhgl@wt.net writes: > > << 1979 M23 Sadhana's c'board winch is a Merriman (chrome over bronze) > mounted on > the teak c'board trunk cap piece. > Dick > >> > > Dick > Would you know if they are still available? I need the spring that holds > the ratchet release............ > > thanks, > > Lenny ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: Richard Lane Subject: Re: M_Boats: Update on refit progress Date: 25 Mar 2001 23:03:12 -0800 No, there isn't an easy way, I had to cut the bulkhead away on Sadhana where the original owner/finisher had omitted a backing plate. After removing all the pukey balsa core I filled the resulting cavity with West epoxy and micro-ballons and brought the mast tabernacle 1.5" forward and drilled four new holes sandwiching the deck between the tabernacle and a curved 1/8" S.S. backing plate. Gave a little more mast rake! Dick Jeff Grudin wrote: > > I wanted to remove the mast base and put some bedding compound in the > screw holes as there is evidence of water leakage along these screws. > the fore-port bolt appears to have a nut within the wood of the > bulkhead. Does anyone know of an easy way to get to this? > > ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: "JAMES CHRISTIAN" Subject: Re: M_Boats: Purplexed Date: 26 Mar 2001 07:42:42 -0800 ----- Original Message ----- Sent: Sunday, March 25, 2001 4:46 PM > Got a quetion for you guys with M-15's...What do you tow with? I'm tired > of borrowing my wife's Nissan Quest mini-van to tow my boat. Thinking of > trading in my Nissan Sentra 200sx ser on something I can tow my M-15 with > that's as small as I can get away with. (I'd also be using it for > commuting so good gas mileage is important) Some vehicles I've been > thinking about; > > Subaru Forrester > Subaru Impreza wagon > Isuzu Rodeo Sport > Toyota Tacoma > or > put a hitch on my Sentra and go ahead and fry the clutch. > > Or buy a cheap Astro van or pick-up just for towing and hauling junk. > > Also, it'd be interesting to know if any of you use a manual in your > towing rig. > > Any thoughts? > > Bob Olson > M-15 #296 "Piccolo" > \BOB....I'M USING MY HONDA PASSPORT V6 4WD AND IT IS MORE THAN ADEQUATE. AN AUTOMATIC IS CERTAINLY PREFERRED. IT DID A GREAT JOB ON MY O'DAY 222 WHEN I HAD IT ALSO. IT LACKS A LITTLE IN THE FUEL SAVING DEPARTMENT. GLAD THINGS ARE GOING WELL WITHE THE NEW BOAT. I'M SAILING AGAIN ALSO. CAPT JIM "LIL LOCO" M-15 #138 > > > ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: Conbert Benneck Subject: RE: M_Boats: Purplexed Date: 26 Mar 2001 09:51:57 -0500 (EST) ------Original Message------ Sent: March 26, 2001 12:46:05 AM GMT Got a quetion for you guys with M-15's...What do you tow with? I'm tired of borrowing my wife's Nissan Quest mini-van to tow my boat. Thinking of trading in my Nissan Sentra 200sx ser on something I can tow my M-15 with that's as small as I can get away with. (I'd also be using it for commuting so good gas mileage is important) Some vehicles I've been thinking about; Bob, I have been towing my M15 with a VW VR6 GTI - Florida to Connecticut when I picked up the boat: then to Lake Champlain, Moosehead Lake, Maine. The VR6 GTI had a manual transmission. My new VW GTI is the 1.8T with an automatic. I haven't gone on any long trips with it, but on short runs, you hardly notice the M15 behind you. Connie Subaru Forrester Subaru Impreza wagon Isuzu Rodeo Sport Toyota Tacoma or put a hitch on my Sentra and go ahead and fry the clutch. Or buy a cheap Astro van or pick-up just for towing and hauling junk. Also, it'd be interesting to know if any of you use a manual in your towing rig. Any thoughts? Bob Olson M-15 #296 "Piccolo" ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: rc2222@postoffice.pacbell.net Subject: M_Boats: tow vechicle Date: 26 Mar 2001 07:45:09 -0800 Mark: You indicated that if you had a M15 you would tow with a Toyota Pickup with manual transmission. In past postings most M boaters were recommending automatic transmissions. A used small pickup with manual transmission is considerably less expensive than an automatic. However, I've not taken them seriously because I've assumed I need an automatic. Will a manual do well in the Sierra Nevadas?? I think the M15 would look great behind a small pickup. Rich Cottrell ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: Don Olson Subject: Re: M_Boats: Purplexed Date: 26 Mar 2001 08:57:46 -0700 Hi Bob, I use a 92 Chev full size short bed pickup with 350 engine and auto transmission. It came with a towing package.( transmission oil cooler, engine oil cooler and wiring harness) It is two wheel drive but has a limited slip differential. I find a pickup to be a quite useful vehicle especially with the boat as I carry the motor, rudder and 5 ft aluminum ladder in the bed. Of course I don't have a family so the limited room up front is no problem. I would guess the gas mileage is about 18 to 20mi depending on conditions. So far the only trouble I find with a pickup is that I am in demand whenever any of my friends buy a new refrigerator or move. Don Olson M15 'Puffer' Phoenix, Az ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: Tom Smith Subject: RE: M_Boats: tow vechicle Date: 26 Mar 2001 09:51:41 -0800 Rich, I tow my M15 with a 4 cyl 4wd Toyota PU. Granted, I moor my boat most of the time, but I pulled it to CA from ID last summer with no problem at all. It's a 5 speed, and I keep it in 4th most of the time, even when driving on the flat to spare the trans. t Tom Smith and Jane Van Winkle M15/345 -- Chukar Sandpoint, Idaho -----Original Message----- [mailto:rc2222@postoffice.pacbell.net] Sent: Monday, March 26, 2001 7:45 AM Mark: You indicated that if you had a M15 you would tow with a Toyota Pickup with manual transmission. In past postings most M boaters were recommending automatic transmissions. A used small pickup with manual transmission is considerably less expensive than an automatic. However, I've not taken them seriously because I've assumed I need an automatic. Will a manual do well in the Sierra Nevadas?? I think the M15 would look great behind a small pickup. Rich Cottrell ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: "Ed Armstrong" Subject: Re: M_Boats: unusual interior Date: 26 Mar 2001 10:35:46 -0800 --------------7F34CC730D97E1F7E3D7C916 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit I've been inside this boat. The material is pretty much what it looks like -- some kind of padded cushioned material, like a quilt. Stockdale Marine in Sacramento currently has two M17s. This one had some pretty bad cracks in the transom. The other one looked pretty clean, and the owner is asking about $1500 less. Ed "htmills@bright.net" wrote: > I was browsing yachtworld.com and came across an '83 M17 for > sale in the Sacramento area. I looked at the pictures of it > and noticed an unusual headliner in the cabin: > > http://images.yachtworld.com/7/0/7/707164_2.jpg > > The boat is at: > > http://yachtworld.com/boats/search_yachts.cgi.en?new=&type=%28Sail%29&maker=Montgomery&units=Feet&min_length=&max_length=&min_year=&max_year=¤cy=USD&min_price=&max_price= --------------7F34CC730D97E1F7E3D7C916 Content-Type: text/html; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit I've been inside this boat.  The material is pretty much what it looks like -- some kind of padded cushioned material, like a quilt.  Stockdale Marine in Sacramento currently has two M17s.  This one had some pretty bad cracks in the transom.  The other one looked pretty clean, and the owner is asking about $1500 less.

Ed

"htmills@bright.net" wrote:

I was browsing yachtworld.com and came across an '83 M17 for
sale in the Sacramento area.  I looked at the pictures of it
and noticed an unusual headliner in the cabin:

http://images.yachtworld.com/7/0/7/707164_2.jpg

The boat is at:

http://yachtworld.com/boats/search_yachts.cgi.en?new=&type=%28Sail%29&maker=Montgomery&units=Feet&min_length=&max_length=&min_year=&max_year=&currency=USD&min_price=&max_price=

--------------7F34CC730D97E1F7E3D7C916-- ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: jerry montgomery Subject: Re: M_Boats: tow vechicle Date: 26 Mar 2001 14:42:38 +0000 Yes, but Tom never gets over 35 mph, boat or no! Jerry Tom Smith wrote: > > Rich, I tow my M15 with a 4 cyl 4wd Toyota PU. Granted, I moor my boat most > of the time, but I pulled it to CA from ID last summer with no problem at > all. It's a 5 speed, and I keep it in 4th most of the time, even when > driving on the flat to spare the trans. t > > Tom Smith and Jane Van Winkle > M15/345 -- Chukar > Sandpoint, Idaho > > -----Original Message----- > From: rc2222@postoffice.pacbell.net > [mailto:rc2222@postoffice.pacbell.net] > Sent: Monday, March 26, 2001 7:45 AM > To: Montgomery Boats > Subject: M_Boats: tow vechicle > > Mark: > > You indicated that if you had a M15 you would tow with a Toyota Pickup > with manual transmission. > > In past postings most M boaters were recommending automatic > transmissions. > > A used small pickup with manual transmission is considerably less > expensive > than an automatic. However, I've not taken them seriously because I've > assumed I need an automatic. > Will a manual do well in the Sierra Nevadas?? > > I think the M15 would look great behind a small pickup. > > Rich Cottrell ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: Tom Smith Subject: RE: M_Boats: tow vechicle Date: 26 Mar 2001 13:57:04 -0800 Okay everybody. Get this. I'm following Jerry from his place to Folsom lake to do a little practicing last year for the Oakland Potter deal. We hit the freeway, and that's the last I see of Jerry. I'm supposed to follow him to the launch, but off he goes at 80 or 90 mph. It's like he tried to lose me. So Jane and I spend the rest of the afternoon drinking beer in a Safeway parking lot watching unbelievably heavy Sacramento traffic. If we'd have gotten in those couple of hours of practice, we'd have beaten everybody, not just almost everybody. Tom Smith and Jane Van Winkle M15/345 -- Chukar Sandpoint, Idaho -----Original Message----- Sent: Monday, March 26, 2001 6:43 AM Yes, but Tom never gets over 35 mph, boat or no! Jerry Tom Smith wrote: > > Rich, I tow my M15 with a 4 cyl 4wd Toyota PU. Granted, I moor my boat most > of the time, but I pulled it to CA from ID last summer with no problem at > all. It's a 5 speed, and I keep it in 4th most of the time, even when > driving on the flat to spare the trans. t > > Tom Smith and Jane Van Winkle > M15/345 -- Chukar > Sandpoint, Idaho > > -----Original Message----- > From: rc2222@postoffice.pacbell.net > [mailto:rc2222@postoffice.pacbell.net] > Sent: Monday, March 26, 2001 7:45 AM > To: Montgomery Boats > Subject: M_Boats: tow vechicle > > Mark: > > You indicated that if you had a M15 you would tow with a Toyota Pickup > with manual transmission. > > In past postings most M boaters were recommending automatic > transmissions. > > A used small pickup with manual transmission is considerably less > expensive > than an automatic. However, I've not taken them seriously because I've > assumed I need an automatic. > Will a manual do well in the Sierra Nevadas?? > > I think the M15 would look great behind a small pickup. > > Rich Cottrell ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: Bob Olson Subject: RE: M_Boats: Purplexed: VW GTI Date: 26 Mar 2001 17:10:19 -0800 OOOOHHH, I like this one. The best of both worlds. I can still have fun driving to work, and grab my boat when I need a sailing fix. Wonder about those VW trannies though? New Jetta wagon coming out this summer...hmmmm. How difficult is it to use a manual when pulling up a ramp? Bob >Bob, > >I have been towing my M15 with a VW VR6 GTI - Florida to Connecticut when I >picked up the boat: then to Lake Champlain, Moosehead Lake, Maine. The VR6 >GTI had a manual transmission. > >My new VW GTI is the 1.8T with an automatic. I haven't gone on any long >trips with it, but on short runs, you hardly notice the M15 behind you. > >Connie ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: "Joe Kidd" Subject: Re: M_Boats: Purplexed: VW GTI Date: 26 Mar 2001 17:58:42 -0800 Bob, The difference between manual and automatic transmissions really boils down to one's druthers, experience and comfort level. For the most part, today's automatic trannies are smarter than we are and know when to shift before we do; but those computer-set shift points are pre-determined for average, normal power train needs. So, shift points and heat build-up under load should be considered when pulling the extra weight of the boat and trailer. Also, assuming the tow vehicle has enough power, all that "go" must be managed by sufficient "whoa" to stop the combined rig safely. You don't want the tail wagging the dog... A clutch and manual transmission on a truck -- or an SUV on a truck chassis -- is built for the added loads expected of that vehicle. The manual tranny offers the advantage of being able to match the gearing to the power needs, plus brake-saving "whoa" by down-shifting when descending a long grade. I pull my M15 with my 4-banger, 5-speed manual, 4x4 Trooper with ease... and I cruise on level ground in 5th (overdrive) gear with no ill effects. Pulling the boat up a ramp is pretty simple if you know how to use a clutch. With the tranny in first gear (4-wheel drive optional), slowly release the hand brake as you gently let out the clutch and add a little throttle. Very little, if any, clutch slippage will occur. If you need a combination tow/commute vehicle, however, you probably would be happier with the gas mileage of a compact sedan or wagon like the VW GTI or Jetta. And if you like trucks, even the 4-cylinder Toyota pickup is a reliable and tough little towing rig. Joe Kidd M15 #207 "Poco A Poco" ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: sparsons@canby.com (Steve Parsons) Subject: Re: M_Boats: Hey Steve Date: 26 Mar 2001 18:26:20 -0800 Mark, Believe it or not, I only bought a cushion that snaps to the top of an Igloo cooler. Steve >Steve, > How is it possible to only spend 0.22 SBU (standard boat units 1= >$100.00)??!! Did you only buy a hose clamp or something? Or did you just >leave them a tip for allowing you to stroll through their store and touch >things? I can never get out that cheaply! ;-) >Mark Dvorscak > > > > ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: "Bill Riker" Subject: RE: M_Boats: Purplexed Date: 26 Mar 2001 21:14:53 -0500 Bob, I bought a '97 RAV4 for towing, and have been very happy with it. Doesn't have tons of power, but its enough with the 5-speed, and gets 27 mpg highway, 21 with the boat in tow. The new RAVs have more power and more space. Bill Riker M-15 #184 Storm Petrel ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: "Bill Riker" Subject: RE: M_Boats: tow vechicle Date: 26 Mar 2001 21:39:43 -0500 Tom, I'm probably missing something but: I understand keeping it in 4th to avoid lugging or straining the engine. But with a stick I can't imagine what difference the gear would make to the transmission. Now if you're really only going 35 . . . Bill Riker M-15 #184 Storm Petrel -----Original Message----- [mailto:owner-montgomery_boats@lists.xmission.com]On Behalf Of Tom Smith Sent: March 26, 2001 12:52 PM Rich, I tow my M15 with a 4 cyl 4wd Toyota PU. Granted, I moor my boat most of the time, but I pulled it to CA from ID last summer with no problem at all. It's a 5 speed, and I keep it in 4th most of the time, even when driving on the flat to spare the trans. t Tom Smith and Jane Van Winkle M15/345 -- Chukar Sandpoint, Idaho ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: AirEvacLen@aol.com Subject: Re: M_Boats: tow vechicle Date: 26 Mar 2001 21:55:53 EST In a message dated 03/25/2001 9:14:57 PM US Mountain Standard Time, JFleming1231@earthlink.net writes: << And if you tow heavy stuff in hot environments like Arizona/Texas (like Lenny does when he comes to California for some salt-water sailing) and you have an automatic transmission, a transmission cooler is a very good idea. >> Yup............Towing package should include larger radiator as well........It DO make a difference in the life of the components........... Lenny ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: Doug King Subject: Re: M_Boats: tow vehicle last gas(p)? Date: 26 Mar 2001 22:02:09 -0500 I'm thinking the next topic for an Owners Opinion List should be tow vehicles. Interesting that once a subject is discussed enough to "warrant" an opinion list, everybody's through talking about it for a few months. Maybe we need to preempt subjects before they hit the list. By the way, I encourage you to add your opinion to the Outboards list. Only had two little bugs to squash, but now they're nuthin' but flattened little dried-up brown spots on the ol' Information Superhighway, possibly run over by Lenny's F-250. It seems to be fine now, so please give us the benefit of your experience. Doug the bug-mugger ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: Bob Olson Subject: RE: M_Boats: Purplexed Date: 26 Mar 2001 19:19:15 -0800 Geez. I'm begining to think that just about anything will pull my M-15. I had eliminated the RAV4 or Honda CRV thinking the engines would be a little too small for the load. Good to hear that's not the case. Wonder if the FWD version is adequate or would AWD be better -- a base model RAV4 would be alot cheaper. Bob >Bob, > >I bought a '97 RAV4 for towing, and have been very happy with it. Doesn't >have tons of power, but its enough with the 5-speed, and gets 27 mpg >highway, 21 with the boat in tow. The new RAVs have more power and more >space. > >Bill Riker >M-15 #184 >Storm Petrel ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: AirEvacLen@aol.com Subject: Re: M_Boats: Question for M-23 owners. Date: 26 Mar 2001 22:30:23 EST In a message dated 03/25/2001 11:46:34 PM US Mountain Standard Time, rqlhgl@wt.net writes: << I believe Merriman went out of business some 9 yrs ago but you could check with Minney's Yatch Surplus in S.Cal or Popeye's in Vancouver BC. >> Dick Thanks........... Lenny ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: AirEvacLen@aol.com Subject: Re: M_Boats: tow vehicle last gas(p)? Date: 26 Mar 2001 22:37:44 EST In a message dated 03/26/2001 8:00:22 PM US Mountain Standard Time, msog@brinet.net writes: << hey're nuthin' but flattened little dried-up brown spots on the ol' Information Superhighway, possibly run over by Lenny's F-250. >> V-A-R-O-O-O-O-M Lenny ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: "Roberta & Mark Dvorscak" Subject: M_Boats: reply to Rich re: auto trans Date: 26 Mar 2001 22:31:22 -0800 Rich, I prefer a manual for several reasons. 1. They will generally hold up better to the demands of towing (in my experience). The exception being the heavy duty automatics designed to handle the loads of towing that are sometimes installed in full size (3/4 ton and larger) pickups. 2. They don't require that you add a transmission cooler in order to tow. 3. Clutches are easier and cheaper to replace than the entire transmission when the inevitable wear occurs. 4. If you select a 4X4 you also have the convenience of low range which helps to ease the boat up the ramp when retrieving. 5. Selecting a lower gear in order to use engine compression to slow down seems to greatly hasten the demise of automatic transmissions but doesn't seem to shorten the life of manuals at all. 6. The automatic transmissions in compact pickups are especially ill suited to towing due to their lightweight construction. 7. I may simply be a little biased because I'm used to manuals but I believe my observations are valid. :-) To answer your question. I believe a manual transmission is a much better choice for the Sierras. You will be much less likely to suffer a breakdown. Heat is the #1 killer of automatics and towing in mountainous country produces plenty of heat! Having said all that, I realize that a lot of people tow using an automatic. They may simply trade their vehicles off more often than I. I usually rack up 250 to 300,000 miles before I consider a newer rig. I have had very good service from Toyota trucks with manual transmissions and I would simply stick with what has worked for me in the past. Hope this helps. Mark Dvorscak M17 #400 GRACE ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: "Roberta & Mark Dvorscak" Subject: Re: M_Boats: tow vechicle Date: 26 Mar 2001 22:53:12 -0800 ...with a stick I can't imagine what > difference the gear would make to the transmission. answer: 4th gear in a manual trans is usually a 1:1 ratio. 5th is usually more like an overdrive gear which puts more strain on the shaft and bearings. Mark ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: John Fleming Subject: Re: M_Boats: reply to Rich re: auto trans Date: 26 Mar 2001 23:40:04 -0700 I've re-arranged the flow to help make the questions asked more relevant. Roberta & Mark Dvorscak wrote: > > Rich, > I prefer a manual for several reasons. > 1. They will generally hold up better to the demands of towing > (in my experience). The exception being the heavy duty automatics designed > to handle the loads of towing that are sometimes installed in full size (3/4 > ton and larger) pickups. > 2. They don't require that you add a transmission cooler in > order to tow. > To answer your question. I believe a manual transmission is a much > better choice for the Sierras. You will be much less likely to suffer a > breakdown. Heat is the #1 killer of automatics and towing in mountainous > country produces plenty of heat! > Well now, this is the point I'm curious about. If the average SUV tranny has a cooler installed, won't this take care of the heat problem? So that, the lifetime of the tranny will be dominated by the number of miles or operating hours, and not the amount of towing performed? So that under the heavy loads of towing, even though there's more slipping of all those friction disks and bands and all that other magical stuff inside the tranny, the cooler carries the heat away so that undue wear does not occur? I may be an aerospace engineer, but how an automatic tranny works is a total mystery to me. Of course, it's not exactly like I know how a synchro works in a manual, either. > 4. If you select a 4X4 you also have the convenience of low > range which helps to ease the boat up the ramp when retrieving. I can attest to that. At Lake Roosevelt, the launch ramps were steep and pebbly, and the 4WD of our Explorer made it a non-event, even though all four wheels would slip from time to time. I shudder to think of what it would be like to try and drag our M-17 up that ramp with our punky Mazda P/U. More likely the boat would pull the truck backwards into the water and drown it. > Having said all that, I realize that a lot of people tow using an > automatic. They may simply trade their vehicles off more often than I. I > usually rack up 250 to 300,000 miles before I consider a newer rig. I have > had very good service from Toyota trucks with manual transmissions and I > would simply stick with what has worked for me in the past. Hope this helps. Our '94 Explorer has about 150K miles. We lugged our M-17 all over Arizona, and to California once. We don't have that tranny cooler installed. But our tranny seems to be holding up fine. (Well, it recently developed a tiny behavior tic, but is that due to the boat? Quien sabe?!) I dread a transmission rebuild on the Explorer, because every time I have to take that car in for some repairs, for anything, it seems like it's an $800 bill. A tranny will be twice that. Good reason to (belatedly) get that cooler installed. John Fleming M-17: "Star Cross'd" ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: Sandyal55@aol.com Subject: Re: M_Boats: reply to Rich re: auto trans Date: 27 Mar 2001 10:21:25 EST --part1_18.ac616dc.27f209f5_boundary Content-Type: text/plain; charset="US-ASCII" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit After having towed several boats all over Arizona and across the desert to California many times, I have my tranny comments. Manual trannies are fine "if the driver knows how to use it properly". Most clutches go out due to continuous operator error. I had a Ford 1/2 ton van with 127K miles when I sold it. When having some leaks repaired, the tranny shop owner asked me why the inside looked so good. He couldn't find anything wrong with 108K on the odometer. I changed the fluid yearly because I towed in a hot and dusty climate. I also added a trans cooler when I bought the truck, becuase I knew that heat is the big killer of automatics. Heat is one of the killers of a clutch too. Slipping a clutch going up a launching ramp is hell on a clutch, but not on 1st gear in an automatic, which is designed to slip. Most front wheeldrive car automatics aren't designed to tow anything, despite the manufacturers claims. In conclusion; If the ramp is <10 miles from home and you're never going anyplace else, tow with whatever you want. But if longer trips are in your future, rig the tow vehicle properly. My comments from a former big rig driver and I've towed boats and other trailers from coast to coast for 40 years. Sandy --part1_18.ac616dc.27f209f5_boundary Content-Type: text/html; charset="US-ASCII" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit After having towed several boats all over Arizona and across the desert to
California many times, I have my tranny comments.
Manual trannies are fine "if the driver knows how to use it properly". Most
clutches go out due to continuous operator error.
I had a Ford 1/2 ton van with 127K miles when I sold it. When having some
leaks repaired, the tranny shop owner asked me why the inside looked so good.
He couldn't find anything wrong with 108K on the odometer. I changed the
fluid yearly because I towed in a hot and dusty climate. I also added a trans
cooler when I bought the truck, becuase I knew that heat is the big killer of
automatics.

Heat is one of the killers of a clutch too. Slipping a clutch going up a
launching ramp is hell on a clutch, but not on 1st gear in an automatic,
which is designed to slip.

Most front wheeldrive car automatics aren't designed to tow anything, despite
the manufacturers claims.

In conclusion; If the ramp is <10 miles from home and you're never going
anyplace else, tow with whatever you want. But if longer trips are in your
future, rig the tow vehicle properly.

My comments from a former big rig driver and I've towed boats and other
trailers from coast to coast for 40 years.

Sandy
--part1_18.ac616dc.27f209f5_boundary-- ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: Tom Smith Subject: RE: M_Boats: tow vechicle Date: 27 Mar 2001 07:58:22 -0800 You're right Bill. It's to keep the rpms up and has nothing to do with the trans... t Tom Smith and Jane Van Winkle M15/345 -- Chukar Sandpoint, Idaho -----Original Message----- Sent: Monday, March 26, 2001 6:40 PM Tom, I'm probably missing something but: I understand keeping it in 4th to avoid lugging or straining the engine. But with a stick I can't imagine what difference the gear would make to the transmission. Now if you're really only going 35 . . . Bill Riker M-15 #184 Storm Petrel -----Original Message----- [mailto:owner-montgomery_boats@lists.xmission.com]On Behalf Of Tom Smith Sent: March 26, 2001 12:52 PM Rich, I tow my M15 with a 4 cyl 4wd Toyota PU. Granted, I moor my boat most of the time, but I pulled it to CA from ID last summer with no problem at all. It's a 5 speed, and I keep it in 4th most of the time, even when driving on the flat to spare the trans. t Tom Smith and Jane Van Winkle M15/345 -- Chukar Sandpoint, Idaho ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: Tom Smith Subject: RE: M_Boats: tow vehicle last gas(p)? Date: 27 Mar 2001 08:09:32 -0800 Hey Doug, why not make the names on the opinions email links so if somebody says something that rings a bell, we can click and email a question to the author? Tom Smith LineSoft Corporation Phone: 509-928-1707 ext. 248 Fax: 509-928-2581 E-mail: tsmith@linesoft.com Website: www.linesoft.com -----Original Message----- Sent: Monday, March 26, 2001 7:02 PM I'm thinking the next topic for an Owners Opinion List should be tow vehicles. Interesting that once a subject is discussed enough to "warrant" an opinion list, everybody's through talking about it for a few months. Maybe we need to preempt subjects before they hit the list. By the way, I encourage you to add your opinion to the Outboards list. Only had two little bugs to squash, but now they're nuthin' but flattened little dried-up brown spots on the ol' Information Superhighway, possibly run over by Lenny's F-250. It seems to be fine now, so please give us the benefit of your experience. Doug the bug-mugger ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: Loyd Myers Subject: Re: M_Boats: Hello Lloyd Date: 27 Mar 2001 09:42:43 -0800 Steve, It was a pleasant surprise to run into a fellow monty owner! On the subject of boat expenditures, I should have been so lucky! -- I spent more on the order of 5.2 SBU (thanks for that, Mark :) on bottom prep paint, but my cernterboard is out and blasted and the tang is not broken off -- On my boat, the centerboard stop was broken, but thanks to glassed in 6" x 1" stainless plates holding a brand new stainless stop pin, i'll not have to worry about that again. Loyd Steve Parsons wrote: > Lloyd, > > It was good to meet you the other day. I hope that all went well with > getting the M17 to MacMinville. I was lucky, and managed to make it out of > West Marine with only $22 out of my green locker. > > Regards, > > Steve ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: "Roberta & Mark Dvorscak" Subject: M_Boats: I second these tranny opinions Date: 27 Mar 2001 21:21:09 -0800 This is a multi-part message in MIME format. ------=_NextPart_000_005B_01C0B703.D7BDD0E0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable ...changed the fluid yearly because I towed in a hot and dusty = climate. I also added a trans=20 cooler when I bought the truck, becuase I knew that heat is the big = killer of=20 automatics.=20 Most front wheeldrive car automatics aren't designed to tow anything, = despite=20 the manufacturers claims.=20 In conclusion; If the ramp is <10 miles from home and you're never = going=20 anyplace else, tow with whatever you want. But if longer trips are in = your=20 future, rig the tow vehicle properly.=20 I'm in complete agreement with the comments above. I would consider a = transmission cooler an absolute neccesity for towing with an automatic. = Frequent fluid changes are also good and I would add frequent fluid = checking to that. You don't have to be very low on fluid to fry a = tranny.=20 There have been a lot of good helpful comments on this subject. = I'm real happy to be a part of this Montgomery Community. Mark Dvorscak M17 #400 GRACE=20 ------=_NextPart_000_005B_01C0B703.D7BDD0E0 Content-Type: text/html; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable
 ...changed the = fluid yearly=20 because I towed in a hot and dusty climate. I also added a trans =
cooler=20 when I bought the truck, becuase I knew that heat is the big killer of =
automatics.

Most front wheeldrive car automatics aren't = designed=20 to tow anything, despite
the manufacturers claims.

In = conclusion;=20 If the ramp is <10 miles from home and you're never going =
anyplace=20 else, tow with whatever you want. But if longer trips are in your =
future,=20 rig the tow vehicle properly.
 
I'm in complete = agreement with=20 the comments above. I would consider a transmission cooler an absolute = neccesity for towing with an automatic. Frequent fluid changes are = also good=20 and I would add frequent fluid checking to that. You don't have = to be=20 very low on fluid to fry a tranny. 
    = There have=20 been a lot of good helpful comments on this subject. I'm real happy to = be a=20 part of this Montgomery Community.
 
Mark = Dvorscak
M17 = #400
GRACE 
 ------=_NextPart_000_005B_01C0B703.D7BDD0E0-- ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: LBarkhuff@cs.com Subject: Re: M_Boats: Question for M-23 owners. Date: 29 Mar 2001 04:36:35 EST No Lenny they are no longer available, they were made i think in New Zealand.....also Theo is not kidding, that is where his winch is located, it is a trailer winch....Larry ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: LBarkhuff@cs.com Subject: Re: M_Boats: Update on refit progress Date: 29 Mar 2001 04:44:33 EST Did anyone give Jeff any info on checking the ceiling of the 23 for the sagging problem some folks have talked about? It comes from the compression post not being exactly under the mast tabernacle? Also, I just spent a week in the Exuma islands in the bahamas, and trust me folks, a boat unit there is $1000.00, not the $100.00 we deal with.....this was a 40 foot Nauticat, made in Finland, and this is lots of boat units.....Larry ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: Conbert H Benneck Subject: Re: M_Boats: Hey Steve Date: 28 Mar 2001 21:45:25 -0500 Mark, Love your SBU definition. I think that that is the price of admission to the Pleasure Palace. The cotton candy, hot dogs, and tee shirts cost extra. Connie ________________________________________________________________ GET INTERNET ACCESS FROM JUNO! Juno offers FREE or PREMIUM Internet access for less! Join Juno today! For your FREE software, visit: http://dl.www.juno.com/get/tagj. ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: Conbert H Benneck Subject: Re: M_Boats: Purplexed: VW GTI Date: 28 Mar 2001 21:37:20 -0500 Bob, To answer the last question, I never had any problems hauling the M15 out of the water on a ramp. I had to slip the clutch a bit to get things moving, but then had the clutch fully engaged as I crawled out of the water in first gear. I now have a trailer tongue extension for the M15 trailer, which makes life much easier - particularly if you plan to do solo sailing. With our old ComPac 16, the routine was to position ourselves on the launch ramp: block the trailer wheels with chocks (home made - a must have item), then pulled the VW forward about 15 feet; attached an old anchor rode to the trailer and the car hitch. The idea was that the trailer, with the front wheel on the ramp, could ease back into the water, while I kept the tail end of the GTI out of the water, and the front wheels on firm dry ramp pavement. My wife would push or pull the trailer tongue to guide the trailer in the right direction. If you are by yourself, then the trailer tongue extension is the better way to go. Then, with the extension, it is a one man job to back down the ramp, and launch (assuming that you have a dock or some-such where you can moor the boat, while you drive the car and trailer to a parking spot). Connie ________________________________________________________________ GET INTERNET ACCESS FROM JUNO! Juno offers FREE or PREMIUM Internet access for less! Join Juno today! For your FREE software, visit: http://dl.www.juno.com/get/tagj. ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: Conbert H Benneck Subject: Re: M_Boats: Purplexed: VW GTI Date: 28 Mar 2001 21:26:39 -0500 Bob; In years gone by, VW said NO towing, if you asked the question. I think that this was their USA lawyers saying, "Say no trailering", then the owner has to decide for himself if he wants to take the risk, and if an owner has a problem VW has no liability. So, I contacted my friends in Germany and asked them the same question: How much can I tow with a VW? They sent me the 1991 German VW specifications, which read: 107 HP US Standard: 1.8 liter engine with trailer brakes: 2640 lbs. without brakes 1078 lbs. with a standard transmission. There was no listing for towing capacity with the automatic transmission. My current, 2000 VW 1.8T GTI - 150 HP w / automatic transmission manual says: "Information not currently available" but, for the GTI with the VR6 engine and 174 HP, they specify: "trailer without brakes - 1430 lbs.", and "trailer with brakes - 1500 lbs!!!! I assume that someones is asleep at the switch on this one. 70 lbs more if you have brakes???? My friend in Munich is hauling a horse trailer around the Alps - with horse on board - behind a diesel VW Golf. Has been doing it for years and has had no problems. I guess the problem becomes - how much do you slip the clutch when hauling the boat out of the water? For a bit of history: I drove to Bay City Michigan in my old VW GTI to pick up my new Bolger MICRO, a 15 foot boat that weighed about 900 lbs. This was my first towing experience, and it sure was a learning experience! The trailer for the MICRO must have been made from a frame for a mobile home. The trailer weighed more than the boat did. So, as a neophyte I took off heading down I-75 bound for Florida. I'll spare you all the learning experiences on route, but suffice it to say, through the hills of Kentucky and Tennessee, I was crawling along in 2nd gear doing 20 MPH on the steep upgrades, but we made it to Florida. Launched the boat there and had lots of good sailing. Then reloaded the boat and drove from Clearwater, FL back to Connecticut via I-95. Next job was to get a proper sized trailer for the boat, which I did. Also rebuilt the light trailer to properly fit the MICRO. I assume that loaded boat plus trailer then weighed about 1400 lbs. Again, no problems hauling it to Lake Champlain - up and down hills through the Adirondacks - launching, and retrieving. So, I can only say, a VW GTI with a manual transmission works fine - even if overloaded. Of course, I am making one or two 300 mile (each way) trips per year, the remainder of my trips are to a local lake that is about 22 miles from our house. But, if you downshift on inclines and hills, keep the REVs up, and don't load the engine heavily, I think you'll do fine with the smaller car. Apropos: with the VR6 GTI towing the M15, I cruised 1-95 from Florida to Connecticut at about 70 to 75 MPH, and got about 21 MPG. Connie ________________________________________________________________ GET INTERNET ACCESS FROM JUNO! Juno offers FREE or PREMIUM Internet access for less! Join Juno today! For your FREE software, visit: http://dl.www.juno.com/get/tagj. ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: "Randy Graves" Subject: Re: M_Boats: Purplexed: VW GTI Date: 29 Mar 2001 07:44:41 -0800 Connie, We also have a VW Golf 1.9L Diesel (TDI), I believe in the owners manual it says 1,500 lbs total weight of trailer + boat, w/no brakes on the trailer. Randy G. ----- Original Message ----- Sent: Wednesday, March 28, 2001 6:26 PM > Bob; > > In years gone by, VW said NO towing, if you asked the question. I think > that this was their USA lawyers saying, "Say no trailering", then the > owner has to decide for himself if he wants to take the risk, and if an > owner has a problem VW has no liability. > > So, I contacted my friends in Germany and asked them the same question: > How much can I tow with a VW? > > They sent me the 1991 German VW specifications, which read: > > 107 HP US Standard: 1.8 liter engine > with trailer brakes: 2640 lbs. > without brakes 1078 lbs. > > with a standard transmission. > > There was no listing for towing capacity with the automatic transmission. > > My current, 2000 VW 1.8T GTI - 150 HP w / automatic transmission manual > says: "Information not currently available" > but, for the GTI with the VR6 engine and 174 HP, they specify: "trailer > without brakes - 1430 lbs.", and "trailer with brakes - 1500 lbs!!!! I > assume that someones is asleep at the switch on this one. 70 lbs more if > you have brakes???? > > My friend in Munich is hauling a horse trailer around the Alps - with > horse on board - behind a diesel VW Golf. Has been doing it for years > and has had no problems. > > I guess the problem becomes - how much do you slip the clutch when > hauling the boat out of the water? > > For a bit of history: I drove to Bay City Michigan in my old VW GTI to > pick up my new Bolger MICRO, a 15 foot boat that weighed about 900 lbs. > This was my first towing experience, and it sure was a learning > experience! > The trailer for the MICRO must have been made from a frame for a mobile > home. The trailer weighed more than the boat did. > So, as a neophyte I took off heading down I-75 bound for Florida. I'll > spare you all the learning experiences on route, but suffice it to say, > through the hills of Kentucky and Tennessee, I was crawling along in 2nd > gear doing 20 MPH on the steep upgrades, but we made it to Florida. > > Launched the boat there and had lots of good sailing. Then reloaded the > boat and drove from Clearwater, FL back to Connecticut via I-95. > > Next job was to get a proper sized trailer for the boat, which I did. > Also rebuilt the light trailer to properly fit the MICRO. I assume that > loaded boat plus trailer then weighed about 1400 lbs. Again, no > problems hauling it to Lake Champlain - up and down hills through the > Adirondacks - launching, and retrieving. > > So, I can only say, a VW GTI with a manual transmission works fine - even > if overloaded. > > Of course, I am making one or two 300 mile (each way) trips per year, the > remainder of my trips are to a local lake that is about 22 miles from our > house. > > But, if you downshift on inclines and hills, keep the REVs up, and don't > load the engine heavily, I think you'll do fine with the smaller car. > > Apropos: with the VR6 GTI towing the M15, I cruised 1-95 from Florida to > Connecticut at about 70 to 75 MPH, and got about 21 MPG. > > Connie > ________________________________________________________________ > GET INTERNET ACCESS FROM JUNO! > Juno offers FREE or PREMIUM Internet access for less! > Join Juno today! For your FREE software, visit: > http://dl.www.juno.com/get/tagj. > ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: "Morris, Giles" Subject: RE: M_Boats: Update on refit progress Date: 29 Mar 2001 10:06:47 -0600 > Exuma islands in the bahamas (Envy). I spent a week in that area once, with a total of about four hours ashore, and loved every minute. > .this was a 40 foot Nauticat (Envy).The Nauticats are one of the few large motor-sailer type boats that I like the look of. I go aboard whatever they have at the Annapolis show each year and drool over the carpet. Giles ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: Loyd Myers Subject: Re: M_Boats: Purplexed: VW GTI Date: 29 Mar 2001 10:09:40 -0800 Towers, For what its worth, I've been towing my M17 around (to different repair locations ;) with an '88 saab turbo SPG manual-- most wouldn't think of it as a tow vehicle because of the sport suspension, but it certainly has the power. I'm concerned about the clutch -- I think in the case of cars, I suspect that the actual gearing may be as important as the HP -- the saab has about 185hp, and it will tow the M17 up the hills in washington at 80mph if you so chose, but I haven't launched or retreived it yet, and that makes me nervous. It seems like first is pretty low gear, but i don't want to smoke my clutch or be the guy that makes the papers when boat/trailer tows his saab into the drink :) Loyd M17#334 p.s. given the fold down rear seat, the saab is great for carrying additional sailing paraphenalia Conbert H Benneck wrote: > Bob, > > To answer the last question, I never had any problems hauling the M15 out > of the water on a ramp. I had to slip the clutch a bit to get things > moving, but then had the clutch fully engaged as I crawled out of the > water in first gear. ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: "Theo Petron" Subject: Re: M_Boats: Question for M-23 owners. Date: 29 Mar 2001 17:37:42 -0600 Nope. I'm telling the truth. It's great there, and I've even put my remote for the 9.9 Yamaha there as well. theo AirEvacLen@aol.com wrote: > In a message dated 03/24/2001 10:30:18 AM US Mountain Standard Time, > theop@uswest.net writes: > > << Jeff, > My winch is in the starboard lazerette, not on the trunk. > Theo >> > > Theo > You're kidding............right? That must be some kind of > modification.........Jeff, I'll try and get a measurement for you from > mine.......It's on the trunk. > > Lenny ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: Jeff Grudin Subject: Re: M_Boats: Question for M-23 owners. Date: 29 Mar 2001 16:14:37 -0800 Theo, That sounds like a good modification. Care to email or post some photos for us to see how it is done? Theo Petron wrote: > > Nope. I'm telling the truth. It's great there, and I've even put my > remote for the 9.9 Yamaha there as well. > theo > > AirEvacLen@aol.com wrote: > > > In a message dated 03/24/2001 10:30:18 AM US Mountain Standard Time, > > theop@uswest.net writes: > > > > << Jeff, > > My winch is in the starboard lazerette, not on the trunk. > > Theo >> > > > > Theo > > You're kidding............right? That must be some kind of > > modification.........Jeff, I'll try and get a measurement for you from > > mine.......It's on the trunk. > > > > Lenny -- 73 de AC6KW Jeff Grudin, DVM Web Add: http://www.vdbs.com/~grudin Ocean Animal Clinic / Cat Clinic of Santa Cruz - Santa Cruz, California Montgomery 23 Hull #072 Norcal QRP * QRP-L * ARS * AR Qrp ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: Conbert H Benneck Subject: Re: M_Boats: Date: 29 Mar 2001 21:04:00 -0500 Joe, Your suggestion to take the Admirable south to get away from the Connecticut snow and ice was acted upon. We went to Dallas to do a bit of baby sitting for our grandchildren for 10 days, but, where was the good weather???? We had two days of pleasant sunny 70+ degree days. The rest were in the 40s, with rain. The Admirable took along a bathing suit, but it never got out of the suitecase. But I can report that the daffodils, pansys, tulips and wisteria were blooming. No boats on the Dallas lakes; it was too cold for the locals. Latest find at a Tag Sale was a walking beam steam engine that now is de-rusted and functional. But the Admirable keeps asking what I want to do with it? Does it generate power? Mow the lawn? Do anything useful? Sheesh, women have no feeling for a lovely piece of machinery that needed rescuing! Connie ________________________________________________________________ GET INTERNET ACCESS FROM JUNO! Juno offers FREE or PREMIUM Internet access for less! Join Juno today! For your FREE software, visit: http://dl.www.juno.com/get/tagj. ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: Conbert H Benneck Subject: Re: M_Boats: Purplexed: VW GTI Date: 29 Mar 2001 20:38:27 -0500 Lloyd, A prime item in your launching kit should be a proper set of two chocks. If you put them in back of your tow vehicle wheels, there is no way you will slide backwards into the drink. If you tie the lines on the chocks - chocks should have about 6 foot lines on them - remember old airplane films with the mechanics pulling the chocks? - to your tow hitch, as you go up the ramp the chocks will come with you. This makes it a fail safe method of retrieving the boat. The car can't go backward because of the chocks: you can only go forward, up the ramp, so if your gas pedal / clutch coordination isnt't quite right, you are safe. By that time the boat is out of the water and you are on a portion of the ramp that is dry; you have good traction, and all is well I made mine out of a fir 6" x 6", about 14 -16 inches long: chamfered the upper edges so that it looks like a house ( cut at 45 degrees). Drill a hole in the end of the chock and put in a piece of 3/8th inch polyproplyne rope, about 6 feet long. I glued it in place using Elmers wood glue. It's been fine for years. Limiting your cars travel into the drink is imperative. Having seen an over eager cowboy in a pickup truck back speedily down a wet ramp and then stand on the brakes, only to lock his wheels and continue sliding until the hood of the car was under water taught me a lesson. Have a positive stop in the downwards direction. That's what chocks are for! Connie ________________________________________________________________ GET INTERNET ACCESS FROM JUNO! Juno offers FREE or PREMIUM Internet access for less! Join Juno today! For your FREE software, visit: http://dl.www.juno.com/get/tagj. ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: Bob Olson Subject: Re: M_Boats: Purplexed: VW GTI Date: 29 Mar 2001 20:47:59 -0800 Thanks to all for the great towing recommendations/stories. I'm less perplexed than I was, but not completely un-perplexed. Great to hear that a small car like the Golf can tow my M-15. And that means that I can sail AND have a fun car. But now -- and I could wake up tomorrow feeling different -- I'm leaning toward becoming a pick-up truck kind of a dude. Saw a bitchin' lookin' Dodge Dakota at work today and I'm thinking I could kill a few birds... (figuratively) with a rig like that. And since I only commute about 7 miles to work, the gas consumption wouldn't be that bad. And besides, Dubya's in office killing every environmental law ever passed. So gas prices won't go up that much -- right? Bob Olson <---feeling guilty and having a pick-up kind of dude identity crisis M-15 #296 "Piccolo" ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: leyake@juno.com Subject: Re: M_Boats: reefing hook Date: 29 Mar 2001 20:57:28 -0800 I'm afraid I'm going to show my ignorance again, but without someone elses boat to study, I'm not quite sure where to attach the "Rams horn" reefing hook on my M17( which evidently has never been reefed). I assume it attaches at the gooseneck somehow, but nothing looks quite right to me. Would anyone here have a picture or drawing that would help? Thanks, Larry Yake ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: "Roberta & Mark Dvorscak" Subject: M_Boats: pickups... Date: 29 Mar 2001 22:15:07 -0800 ----- Original Message ----- -- I'm leaning toward becoming a pick-up truck kind of a dude. > > Bob Olson <---feeling guilty and having a pick-up kind of dude identity > crisis > M-15 #296 "Piccolo" > Bob, Personally, I'm a bit suspicious of anyone who doesn't own a pickup. They are all probably millionaires who pay other lower class people to haul their stuff! 99% of the households in my county own a pickup, some have more than one, others have an entire yard full of them in various states of repair! Get a pickup and a blue chambray shirt, too (maybe even a hickory shirt if you really feel wild). You'll look good and feel like a good'ol boy and you can haul stuff for everybody you know who isn't in the same class as you. ;-) ;-) Mark tongue in cheek Dvorscak M17 #400 GRACE ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: mikit Subject: Re: M_Boats: Purplexed: VW GTI Date: 29 Mar 2001 22:34:25 -0800 >Connie wrote: >The idea was that the trailer, with the front wheel on the ramp, could >ease back into the water, while I kept the tail end of the GTI out of the >water, and the front wheels on firm dry ramp pavement. My wife would >push or pull the trailer tongue to guide the trailer in the right >direction. > Connie, You couldn't help but love a woman that would do that for you. It's no wonder you refer to her as Admirable. Anybody been to the West Coast Sailboat show that takes place at the end of April in Oakland. Would it be worthwhile to attend? On the subject of tow vehicles, practically any vehicle out there will tow boats the size of ours. My concern would be stopping, especially in an emergency, with the smaller vehicles. On manual verses automatic. When young and adventurous I preferred the manual transmission. It provided a better feel and more options for the snow country I lived in as well as for mountain and desert exploration. Plus, if you left your lights on, with a little incline or push, you could always start the vehicle. Now that I am older, lazy and have a vehicle that shuts it's own lights off, I am happily an automatic convert. Mark, It's been my observation that the number of vehicles scattered around an Oregonian's property is considered by some an indication of status and material worth. What other explanation could there be for the wide spread popularity of this practice.? Mike M17-#369 ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: "Wndsfr47" Subject: Re: M_Boats: Purplexed: VW GTI Date: 30 Mar 2001 00:45:29 -0600 I have a Dodge Dakota with the 3.9 lt.. V-6 and manual tranny (they are available with a V-8) and it pulls my Mirage jet boat (816# + trailer 200# ?) at 70 mph in 5th gear. It will also pull my friends 16 foot Hurricane deck boat with a 4cyl, 130 hp, inboard/outboard which I think weighs in around 2000 w/trailer. I could pull my Hobie 21 Sport Cruiser with my Toyota 4cyl. 4wd (1400 miles from North Carolina) but 5th gear was for long down grades. ;-) The Hobie was 650# + a couple hundred for the trailer. The windage at highway speed was more of a problem than the weight. The Toyota is a '86 model with 160k miles on it and is a dog compared to the new electronic injection 4 bangers, let alone the V-6 models. The Dakota does a fine job of pulling either boat up the steep launch ramps on Lake Amistad, even when they are wet. Some people like to add a 100 pounds of sand bags to the bed of small and mid size P/U's, but I haven't seen the need so far. Oh, the Dakota averages 18 mpg in town and 21.5 on the highway at steady speeds of 70+. Trucks are so comfy these days, who needs a car anyway ? Maybe I've been in Texas to long.......... In case anyone is wondering, I have been lurking on the Montgomery list since I have sold my Hobie. I am planning on buying another sail boat for some coastal cruising in the Gulf as well as the Bahamas and who knows where else when I retire in a few years. I've been wondering if anyone on the list has used a Montgomery 17 for long cruises ? I plan on island hopping since long blue water legs don't interest me. How much gear/supplies can the 17 be equipped with for remote cruising areas like the Bahamas out islands ? Hope the info. on the Dakota helps and thanks ahead of time for any feed back about the beautiful little 17's. Leighton Smith (Smitty) U.S.Windsurfing US-842 Windsurfers Do It Standing Up ! ----- Original Message ----- Sent: Thursday, March 29, 2001 10:47 PM Thanks to all for the great towing recommendations/stories. I'm less perplexed than I was, but not completely un-perplexed. Great to hear that a small car like the Golf can tow my M-15. And that means that I can sail AND have a fun car. But now -- and I could wake up tomorrow feeling different -- I'm leaning toward becoming a pick-up truck kind of a dude. Saw a bitchin' lookin' Dodge Dakota at work today and I'm thinking I could kill a few birds... (figuratively) with a rig like that. And since I only commute about 7 miles to work, the gas consumption wouldn't be that bad. And besides, Dubya's in office killing every environmental law ever passed. So gas prices won't go up that much -- right? Bob Olson <---feeling guilty and having a pick-up kind of dude identity crisis M-15 #296 "Piccolo" ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: Bob Olson Subject: Re: M_Boats: pickups... Date: 29 Mar 2001 23:03:57 -0800 Mike and Mark, I guess my wife wasn't kidding; 'If I get a pick-up truck, my sexual attractiveness quotient will increase by a couple of points. If I get a van, it will decrease to almost 0.' Seeing as I'm almost 50, maybe the van is a better choice. ;-) Bob M-15 #296 "Piccolo" <------proof that it's not the size of the instrument.... >Mike wrote; >It's been my observation that the number of vehicles scattered around >an Oregonian's property is considered by some an indication of >status and material worth. What other explanation could there be for >the wide spread popularity of this practice.? > Mike >M17-#369 >------------------------- >Mark wrote; >Get a pickup and a blue chambray >shirt, too (maybe even a hickory shirt if you really feel wild). You'll look >good and feel like a good'ol boy and you can haul stuff for everybody you >know who isn't in the same class as you. ;-) ;-) > >Mark tongue in cheek Dvorscak >M17 #400 >GRACE ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: mikit Subject: Re: M_Boats: pickups... Date: 29 Mar 2001 23:32:30 -0800 > > >Bob >M-15 #296 "Piccolo" <------proof that it's not the size of the >instrument.... > Some may argue that you would have the opportunity to participate in more concerts with the van ;) ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: Bob Olson Subject: Re: M_Boats: Perplexed: Dakota Date: 29 Mar 2001 23:43:45 -0800 Thanks for the info on the Dakota, Smitty. I was just reading comments about it on Edmunds.com. I was kind of attracted to it because it seems to be about the right size -- not too big or too small. Looks like the V8 gets about the same mileage as the V6. If I get one, I think I'll look for a newer 2WD with an auto. BTW, I see you're a boardhead. Used to be a one myself, but quit when my 3yr old was born. Pretty much every weekend in 'da gorge' in the summer. Always wanted to try Corpus Cristi out. Good luck finding a Montgomery. They do pop up for sale from time to time -- just got to be patient. Bob Olson > I have a Dodge Dakota with the 3.9 lt.. V-6 and manual tranny (they are >available with a V-8) and it pulls my Mirage jet boat (816# + trailer 200# >?) at 70 mph in 5th gear. It will also pull my friends 16 foot Hurricane >deck boat with a 4cyl, 130 hp, inboard/outboard which I think weighs in >around 2000 w/trailer. I could pull my Hobie 21 Sport Cruiser with my Toyota >4cyl. 4wd (1400 miles from North Carolina) but 5th gear was for long down >grades. ;-) The Hobie was 650# + a couple hundred for the trailer. The >windage at highway speed was more of a problem than the weight. The Toyota >is a '86 model with 160k miles on it and is a dog compared to the new >electronic injection 4 bangers, let alone the V-6 models. The Dakota does a >fine job of pulling either boat up the steep launch ramps on Lake Amistad, >even when they are wet. Some people like to add a 100 pounds of sand bags to >the bed of small and mid size P/U's, but I haven't seen the need so far. Oh, >the Dakota averages 18 mpg in town and 21.5 on the highway at steady speeds >of 70+. Trucks are so comfy these days, who needs a car anyway ? Maybe I've >been in Texas to long.......... > > In case anyone is wondering, I have been lurking on the Montgomery list >since I have sold my Hobie. I am planning on buying another sail boat for >some coastal cruising in the Gulf as well as the Bahamas and who knows where >else when I retire in a few years. I've been wondering if anyone on the list >has used a Montgomery 17 for long cruises ? I plan on island hopping since >long blue water legs don't interest me. How much gear/supplies can the 17 be >equipped with for remote cruising areas like the Bahamas out islands ? >Hope the info. on the Dakota helps and thanks ahead of time for any feed >back about the beautiful little 17's. > Leighton Smith (Smitty) >U.S.Windsurfing US-842 >Windsurfers Do It Standing Up ! > > >----- Original Message ----- >From: "Bob Olson" >To: >Sent: Thursday, March 29, 2001 10:47 PM >Subject: Re: M_Boats: Purplexed: VW GTI > > >Thanks to all for the great towing recommendations/stories. I'm less >perplexed than I was, but not completely un-perplexed. Great to hear that >a small car like the Golf can tow my M-15. And that means that I can sail >AND have a fun car. But now -- and I could wake up tomorrow feeling >different -- I'm leaning toward becoming a pick-up truck kind of a dude. >Saw a bitchin' lookin' Dodge Dakota at work today and I'm thinking I >could kill a few birds... (figuratively) with a rig like that. And since >I only commute about 7 miles to work, the gas consumption wouldn't be >that bad. And besides, Dubya's in office killing every environmental law >ever passed. So gas prices won't go up that much -- right? > >Bob Olson <---feeling guilty and having a pick-up kind of dude identity >crisis >M-15 #296 "Piccolo" > > > ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: Grove777@aol.com Subject: M_Boats: montgomery Date: 30 Mar 2001 09:00:38 EST have a montgomery 15 excellant condition not used for years kept in storage want to sell...$4500 ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: Wcpritchett@aol.com Subject: Re: M_Boats: Purplexed: front wheel drive and other stuff Date: 30 Mar 2001 09:54:33 EST I may have missed a posting on front wheel drive but here is my 02. I have towed (2500 lbs)with front wheel drive and the tongue weight can be a problem when you are pulling the boat out of the water. Weight goes to the back wheels just when you need traction. If using steep ramps beware of this. My cure to get traction was to angle the car on the ramp so it was putting a side load on the car. Concerning auto or stick trans...my only issues are at the ramp and nothing is easier than an auto. The only "easy" stick I towed with was a Toyota Landcruiser. I used the granny gear and didn't have to worry about stalling or slipping the clutch, even when pulling a 24'Grady White (5500 lbs) on a steep ramp I could pop the clutch quickly and it would "walk" out. Pickup trucks are normally light in the rear and can lose rear wheel traction during quick stops. Same goes for pulling out at ramps. 200 lbs of tongue weight doesn't help much. This is leading to my ideal towing vehicle which is an auto trans Surburban or large rear wheel drive car. Everything else is a compromise. The worst being front drive and stick shift. Bill P. ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: Sandyal55@aol.com Subject: Re: M_Boats: Purplexed: VW GTI Date: 30 Mar 2001 10:05:00 EST --part1_e6.13856370.27f5fa9c_boundary Content-Type: text/plain; charset="US-ASCII" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Mike; I attended the Oakland show in '98. It's a great show and very worthwhile to attend. Depending on your travel distance, it may not be worth going yearly. If you go every 3 years, you'll see lot's of new things. Sandy --part1_e6.13856370.27f5fa9c_boundary Content-Type: text/html; charset="US-ASCII" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Mike; I attended the Oakland show in '98. It's a great show and very
worthwhile to attend. Depending on your travel distance, it may not be worth
going yearly. If you go every 3 years, you'll see lot's of new things.

Sandy --part1_e6.13856370.27f5fa9c_boundary-- ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: Sandyal55@aol.com Subject: Re: M_Boats: Purplexed: front wheel drive and other stuff Date: 30 Mar 2001 10:12:05 EST --part1_9b.12f05f5e.27f5fc45_boundary Content-Type: text/plain; charset="US-ASCII" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit In a message dated 03/30/2001 2:55:33 PM !!!First Boot!!!, Wcpritchett@aol.com writes: > Pickup trucks are normally light in the rear and can lose rear wheel > traction during quick stops. Same goes for pulling out at ramps. 200 lbs > of tongue weight doesn't help much. > > The rail meat used on the boat comes in handy at the ramp to put weight in the bed over the rear wheels. Or you could find a truck with positraction. Sandy --part1_9b.12f05f5e.27f5fc45_boundary Content-Type: text/html; charset="US-ASCII" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit In a message dated 03/30/2001 2:55:33 PM !!!First Boot!!!,
Wcpritchett@aol.com writes:


Pickup trucks are normally light in the rear and can lose rear wheel
traction during quick stops.  Same goes for pulling out at ramps.  200 lbs
of tongue weight doesn't help much.



The rail meat used on the boat comes in handy at the ramp to put weight in
the bed over the rear wheels. Or you could find a truck with positraction.

Sandy --part1_9b.12f05f5e.27f5fc45_boundary-- ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: "Ian Black" Subject: Re: M_Boats: pickups... Date: 30 Mar 2001 07:11:16 -0800 Mark, Wait a minute! I live in Douglas County and I don't have a pickup truck.Now I'm feeling a little stigmatized. Does the faded,dented, ripe, 228000+ mile, 1986 4Runner count as a pickup? You remember the one that my wife won't ride in unless she has old jeans on. Let me know as soon as possible. I can't afford a pickup right now so I guess I'll be forced to go out and get rich otherwise. Then I would have to buy a 60 footer with crew and I don't think that will float in Fern Ridge Resevoir! This is already seriously affecting my sailing time and my angst is rising even if Fern Ridge isn't! Ian M-17 #343 Seaweeble P.S. How about if dyed Howard ,our Cocker Spaniel, black so he'd look more like a black lab when he's in the front seat? I suppose I could buy a gun rack but I would have to mount it on the windshield....... P.S. Could you drive over and help me haul some stuff to the dump.....? > > > > Bob, > Personally, I'm a bit suspicious of anyone who doesn't own a pickup. They > are all probably millionaires who pay other lower class people to haul their > stuff! 99% of the households in my county own a pickup, some have more than > one, others have an entire yard full of them in various states of repair! > Get a pickup and a blue chambray > shirt, too (maybe even a hickory shirt if you really feel wild). You'll look > good and feel like a good'ol boy and you can haul stuff for everybody you > know who isn't in the same class as you. ;-) ;-) > > Mark tongue in cheek Dvorscak > M17 #400 > GRACE > > ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: "Jerry Lehner" Subject: Re: M_Boats: reefing hook Date: 30 Mar 2001 07:55:19 -0800 Larry I added a reefing hook to the port side, forward end of the boom. My boom gooseneck attachment uses a stainless steel yoke around the boom. I just replaced one of the forward yoke stainless steel bolts with a longer one to allow the hook to attach to the boom. Have used it many times and works well. Jerry >From: leyake@juno.com >Reply-To: montgomery_boats@lists.xmission.com >To: montgomery_boats@lists.xmission.com >Subject: Re: M_Boats: reefing hook >Date: Thu, 29 Mar 2001 20:57:28 -0800 > >I'm afraid I'm going to show my ignorance again, but without someone >elses boat to study, I'm not quite sure where to attach the "Rams horn" >reefing hook on my M17( which evidently has never been reefed). I assume >it attaches at the gooseneck somehow, but nothing looks quite right to >me. Would anyone here have a picture or drawing that would help? >Thanks, >Larry Yake > _________________________________________________________________ Get your FREE download of MSN Explorer at http://explorer.msn.com ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: "Ed Armstrong" Subject: Re: M_Boats: pickups... Date: 30 Mar 2001 09:08:54 -0800 I agree completely. How do you haul stuff for your home without one? How do you get wood, compost, gravel, etc? I don't own a Montgomery boat, but I do admire their form and function, and I do own a pickup. BTW, I test drove one of those new Dodge Dakota 4x4 crew cabs before I bought my Silverado -- best of both worlds on the Dodge. You get a four door vehicle with fullsize back seats AND a pickup bed, even though it's only 5.3'. It handled very well and had a smooth ride. I personally decided on the Silverado 1500 xtra cab because of the bigger bed, more headroom and wider cab, and the back seat is still big enough to fit my toddlers carseat and a couple of passengers. Ed Roberta & Mark Dvorscak wrote: > ----- Original Message ----- > From: Bob Olson > -- I'm leaning toward becoming a pick-up truck kind of a dude. > > > > Bob Olson <---feeling guilty and having a pick-up kind of dude identity > > crisis > > M-15 #296 "Piccolo" > > > > Bob, > Personally, I'm a bit suspicious of anyone who doesn't own a pickup. They > are all probably millionaires who pay other lower class people to haul their > stuff! 99% of the households in my county own a pickup, some have more than > one, others have an entire yard full of them in various states of repair! > Get a pickup and a blue chambray > shirt, too (maybe even a hickory shirt if you really feel wild). You'll look > good and feel like a good'ol boy and you can haul stuff for everybody you > know who isn't in the same class as you. ;-) ;-) > > Mark tongue in cheek Dvorscak > M17 #400 > GRACE -- Ed Armstrong Operations Systems Engineer Globalstar 916-605-5459 ed.armstrong@globalstar.com ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: LBarkhuff@cs.com Subject: Re: M_Boats: Purplexed: VW GTI Date: 30 Mar 2001 13:53:04 EST I just returned from a week in the Exumas, in the Bahamas, and I learned a few things. One thing we don't have enough of is WATER...... I can drink warm beer, (yucck), and Sunny Delight doesn't have to cold, and things like that. But water costs .50 cents per gallon, and I saw a mega cruiser put in 200 gallons in a blink of an eye.... But I have decided that the boats would be a serious blast out there,,,,,,I saw "Firefly" which looked to be a 24 or 25 Pearson, from Flagstaff Az at the moorings in the Exuma Cays Park, and the guy looked to be having a good time.... There were not many boats under 35 feet, and battery power won't last long enough for a serious journey. How do we get a recharge without a gen set? Larry ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: "Wndsfr47" Subject: Re: M_Boats: Perplexed: Dakota Date: 30 Mar 2001 16:39:59 -0600 Actually, Bob I have to thank my daughter for getting me off dead center and starting to windsurf. Now I can't quit ! Any sail boat I buy will have to have a place to put a board. My daughter and I sail Laguna Madre which is between Padre Island and the mainland. Would be a good place for a Montgomery as well. We camp at Bird Island Basin on Padre Island National Seashore. Padre Island is low sand dunes so the wind is good and the water is flat. If you are a wave sailor, I understand that Port Aransas is good for wave sailing, but I haven't gotten to that stage yet, still trying to conquer the carve gibe (jibe). I do most of my sailing on a large lake that is supplied by the Rio Grand, Devil's River and the Pecos River, but we manage to get to Corpus about 2 or 3 times a year. The link below will give you an idea of what it's like at Bird Island. http://www.coolcats.com/worldwinds/ Smitty U.S.Windsurfing US-842 Windsurfers Do It Standing Up ! ----- Original Message ----- Sent: Friday, March 30, 2001 1:43 AM Thanks for the info on the Dakota, Smitty. I was just reading comments about it on Edmunds.com. I was kind of attracted to it because it seems to be about the right size -- not too big or too small. Looks like the V8 gets about the same mileage as the V6. If I get one, I think I'll look for a newer 2WD with an auto. BTW, I see you're a boardhead. Used to be a one myself, but quit when my 3yr old was born. Pretty much every weekend in 'da gorge' in the summer. Always wanted to try Corpus Cristi out. Good luck finding a Montgomery. They do pop up for sale from time to time -- just got to be patient. Bob Olson ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: Michael & Lizabeth Towers Subject: M_Boats: Spinnakers Date: 30 Mar 2001 18:14:52 -0600 I'd like to hear from anyone who's using a spinnaker on an M17, or has one they're not using and would like to sell. Michael M17 #226 ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: Howard A Subject: Re: M_Boats: Purplexed: front wheel drive and other stuff Date: 30 Mar 2001 18:59:35 -0600 Wcpritchett@aol.com wrote: > This is leading to my ideal towing vehicle which is an auto trans Surburban or large rear wheel drive car. Everything else is a compromise. The worst being front drive and stick shift. > > Bill P. What a coincidence. I just bought an old used Suburban. It's a 3/4 ton 2wd, with 454 engine....Big Iron! It would pull 3 M17's. It might even pull an M23 if the need comes up. Didn't really buy it just for towing boats, but it's what I'm going to use this summer for the trip east to the CBR. I still work with a group of Venture Scouts, and we needed transportation and tow vehicle for pulling a scout trailer. Boat puller is it's second job. Before I get too much hate mail, the other cars that reside around here are a Sentra, a Geo Prism and a Camry. I don't think you can beat the Japanese cars. But they don't make a Suburban. My boat puller used to be my "company car", which is a 4wd S10 pickup, with 4.3 liter V6. My boss about puked when he saw the trailer hitch I had installed on it. Turns out their insurance doesn't cover towed vehicles. Another good reason to buy something else. The S10 works, but you certainly know you are hooked to something. It has a 3 speed auto, with OD, and I've had a number of people tell me the surest way to fry that tranny is to pull with it in D, using the OD. To stave off the damage, drop the auto down into 3rd gear and let the engine rev a little. An S10 will pull the M17 at 65-70 MPH, but I would hate to be anywhere near that rig if an emergency stop was required at that speed. I used to pull my 16' fishing boat with a Ford Ranger, with 5 spd manual. The 1st gear was geared up way too fast. Fried one clutch trying to learn how to feather it up the ramp, as getting started up the ramp was somewhere between smoking the tires and killing it. It was a 4wd, and the only way to retrieve a boat with it was to use the 4 low. So my recommendations are if you use a light tow vehicle with auto, put a tranny cooler on it and/or don't use the OD; if a manual, use the 4 low feature if 4wd, hope for the best if you don't have 4wd or you have front wheel drive. I can't believe how much traffic the subject of tow vehicles created. I would have thought you would have had to bring up "Cetol vs. Varnish" to get that much reaction. : ) Howard M17 #278 ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: LBarkhuff@cs.com Subject: Re: M_Boats: Purplexed: front wheel drive and other stuff Date: 30 Mar 2001 20:01:56 EST I will bet very good odds that I could start a minior war if I invited all you guys to park your rice burner cars in Tokyo and buy a real American car..............Larry (Jeep, Ford, and GMC) ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: Richard Lane Subject: Re: M_Boats: Purplexed: front wheel drive and other stuff Date: 30 Mar 2001 17:33:16 -0800 Larry, what about the VW bus you drove to our place? Dick LBarkhuff@cs.com wrote: > I will bet very good odds that I could start a minior war if I > invited all you guys to park your rice burner cars in Tokyo and buy a real > American car..............Larry (Jeep, Ford, and GMC) ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: leyake@juno.com Subject: Re: M_Boats: reefing hook Date: 30 Mar 2001 17:32:34 -0800 Thanks Jerry, I'll try that. My gooseneck yoke is riveted on, but I'll just drill one out and put in a bolt. Larry Y. ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: Wcpritchett@aol.com Subject: Re: M_Boats: Exumas Date: 30 Mar 2001 21:36:52 EST Larry, My wife and I spent two 6 month winters cruising in the Exumas. Great place for small cruisers. The only thing with small boats is you don't have much storage space for long term. We had no refrig or elec and got used to drinking warm brew. Cooking was with kerosene and the liquid from canned foods was used but we added fresh or salt water if needed. We each used 1/2 gal of water a day for bathing...lather up in saltwater and rinse with fresh. It was a blast. I think a solar panel would be my choice on a 17' for elec. Where did you go in the Exumas? Bill P. ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: Bob Olson Subject: Re: M_Boats: Boardheads Date: 30 Mar 2001 18:57:59 -0800 Smitty, you might consider using your slalom board for a dingy. At least it would float you should your boat not. Up here in the cold waters of Puget Sound, keeping a wetsuit around is not such a bad idea either. I envy the warm water conditions you have down there. I'd probably still be windsurfing (I will again) if it wasn't for the short season and 3.5 hour drive required to get to the gorge -- It just doesn't jive with family life (3yr old kid). Gotta say though, there isn't anything that a person can do that's more fun. Windsurfing was an absolute addiction for me for almost 15 years. My life revolved around it. Bob >Actually, Bob I have to thank my daughter for getting me off dead center and >starting to windsurf. Now I can't quit ! Any sail boat I buy will have to >have a place to put a board. My daughter and I sail Laguna Madre which is >between Padre Island and the mainland. Would be a good place for a >Montgomery as well. We camp at Bird Island Basin on Padre Island National >Seashore. Padre Island is low sand dunes so the wind is good and the water >is flat. If you are a wave sailor, I understand that Port Aransas is good >for wave sailing, but I haven't gotten to that stage yet, still trying to >conquer the carve gibe (jibe). I do most of my sailing on a large lake that >is supplied by the Rio Grand, Devil's River and the Pecos River, but we >manage to get to Corpus about 2 or 3 times a year. The link below will give >you an idea of what it's like at Bird Island. >http://www.coolcats.com/worldwinds/ > Smitty >U.S.Windsurfing US-842 >Windsurfers Do It Standing Up ! > > >----- Original Message ----- >From: "Bob Olson" >To: >Sent: Friday, March 30, 2001 1:43 AM >Subject: Re: M_Boats: Perplexed: Dakota > > >Thanks for the info on the Dakota, Smitty. I was just reading comments >about it on Edmunds.com. I was kind of attracted to it because it seems >to be about the right size -- not too big or too small. Looks like the V8 >gets about the same mileage as the V6. If I get one, I think I'll look >for a newer 2WD with an auto. > >BTW, I see you're a boardhead. Used to be a one myself, but quit when my >3yr old was born. Pretty much every weekend in 'da gorge' in the summer. >Always wanted to try Corpus Cristi out. > >Good luck finding a Montgomery. They do pop up for sale from time to time >-- just got to be patient. > >Bob Olson > > > > ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: LBarkhuff@cs.com Subject: Re: M_Boats: Purplexed: front wheel drive and other stuff Date: 30 Mar 2001 22:11:16 EST Sold it, Richard, and bought the Ford....everyone gets a couple mistakes...Larry ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: LBarkhuff@cs.com Subject: Re: M_Boats: Exumas Date: 30 Mar 2001 22:13:24 EST Anchored at Allens, Shroud, Exuma Park, and Staniel Cay....I would really like to try a trip there with a 23....I think it would be a riot...Larry ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: Wcpritchett@aol.com Subject: Re: M_Boats: Exumas Date: 30 Mar 2001 23:08:22 EST Larry, I've been to those places too...down south to Georgetown is also excellent. I had an idea several years ago of getting a flotilla of small sailboats together and doing a trip down there. I was thinking of getting one of the inter island freighters to load them on the deck to make the crossing from Florida. Drop them off for a week or two and pick them up for a return to south Florida. This would make the weather (for crossing the Gulf Stream) a non issue so everyone could make a short vacation with their own boat to the out islands possible. If you had to wait for weather it could turn into a couple of months instead of weeks. Bill ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: Jslubliner@aol.com Subject: Re: M_Boats: Spinnakers Date: 30 Mar 2001 23:24:56 EST --part1_7b.125bc2f1.27f6b618_boundary Content-Type: text/plain; charset="US-ASCII" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Michael, I have two spinnakers on my M-17 FD - a 1/2oz. & a 3/4oz. My favorite is a 3/4oz. pink and purple item that I believe Jerry had made for Coyote by McKibben just to irritate the larger boats he was blasting by. (Right Jerry?) Chutes are a blast but a pain unless you have enough time to enjoy the set. Contact me for more data. I'm not interested in selling either, but will be glad to pass on information to you. jslubliner@aol.com M17FD #69 "Coyote" --part1_7b.125bc2f1.27f6b618_boundary Content-Type: text/html; charset="US-ASCII" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Michael,

I have two spinnakers on my M-17 FD - a 1/2oz. & a 3/4oz.

My favorite is a 3/4oz. pink and purple item that I believe Jerry had made
for Coyote by McKibben just to irritate the larger boats he was blasting by.
(Right Jerry?)

Chutes are a blast but a pain unless you have enough time to enjoy the set.

Contact me for more data. I'm not interested in selling either, but will be
glad to pass on information to you.

jslubliner@aol.com
M17FD #69 "Coyote" --part1_7b.125bc2f1.27f6b618_boundary-- ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: "Wndsfr47" Subject: Re: M_Boats: Boardheads Date: 30 Mar 2001 22:46:59 -0600 I wish I had started long before I did. It won't be long before you will want to start your daughter. They grow up in a hurry. Smitty U.S.Windsurfing US-842 Windsurfers Do It Standing Up ! ----- Original Message ----- Sent: Friday, March 30, 2001 8:57 PM Smitty, you might consider using your slalom board for a dingy. At least it would float you should your boat not. Up here in the cold waters of Puget Sound, keeping a wetsuit around is not such a bad idea either. I envy the warm water conditions you have down there. I'd probably still be windsurfing (I will again) if it wasn't for the short season and 3.5 hour drive required to get to the gorge -- It just doesn't jive with family life (3yr old kid). Gotta say though, there isn't anything that a person can do that's more fun. Windsurfing was an absolute addiction for me for almost 15 years. My life revolved around it. Bob ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: "Roberta & Mark Dvorscak" Subject: M_Boats: easy on the angst Ian... Date: 30 Mar 2001 21:55:36 -0800 Ian, You own 2 SUVs. One of which fits in real well here in pickup and rolling junkyard county Oregon. The other one makes it look like you enjoy the opera or some such absurdity and also makes you the object of envy for many of us. If you buy the big boat you can count on me for crew. We'll say hasta la vista to Fern Ridge and sail the briny deep until Howard quits barking (or hell freezes over, whichever comes first). By the way, don't dye Howard we don't want to give him a reason to bark any more ;-) The gun rack would be ok but you should probably put a hole in the muffler first and then maybe toss a watermelon at the windshield (real nice touch and not too expensive). Sorry I got this message so late. I drove past your store this afternoon with my pickup full of trash. I could have added yours on top and let it all blow out on the freeway! I picked up (in my pickup of course) some stainless steel tubing at a welding shop around the corner from you. My new cockpit drains will be bulletproof!!! See you at the yacht club meeting on Tuesday :) :) Mark Dvorscak M17 #400 GRACE ----- Original Message ----- Sent: Friday, March 30, 2001 7:11 AM > Mark, > Wait a minute! I live in Douglas County and I don't have a pickup truck.Now > I'm feeling a little stigmatized. Does the faded,dented, ripe, 228000+ mile, > 1986 4Runner count as a pickup? You remember the one that my wife won't ride > in unless she has old jeans on. Let me know as soon as possible. I can't > afford a pickup right now so I guess I'll be forced to go out and get rich > otherwise. Then I would have to buy a 60 footer with crew and I don't think > that will float in Fern Ridge Resevoir! This is already seriously affecting > my sailing time and my angst is rising even if Fern Ridge isn't! > Ian > M-17 #343 > Seaweeble > > P.S. How about if dyed Howard ,our Cocker Spaniel, black so he'd look more > like a black lab when he's in the front seat? I suppose I could buy a gun > rack but I would have to mount it on the windshield....... > P.S. Could you drive over and help me haul some stuff to the dump.....? > > > > > > > Bob, > > Personally, I'm a bit suspicious of anyone who doesn't own a pickup. They > > are all probably millionaires who pay other lower class people to haul > their > > stuff! 99% of the households in my county own a pickup, some have more > than > > one, others have an entire yard full of them in various states of repair! > > Get a pickup and a blue chambray > > shirt, too (maybe even a hickory shirt if you really feel wild). You'll > look > > good and feel like a good'ol boy and you can haul stuff for everybody you > > know who isn't in the same class as you. ;-) ;-) > > > > Mark tongue in cheek Dvorscak > > M17 #400 > > GRACE > > > > > > ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: Peter Jacobs Subject: Re: M_Boats: Spinnakers Date: 31 Mar 2001 08:48:15 -0800 Michael & Lizabeth Towers wrote: > > I'd like to hear from anyone who's using a spinnaker on an M17, or has one > they're not using and would like to sell. > > Michael > M17 #226 Hi Michael, I use a (home made) reaching spinnaker on my M17. It's a bit like a genny and I can sail right up to a close reach with it. It's 3/4 oz cloth and will fill when nothing else will. There's a couple of pictures of it at http://www.islandnet.com/~pjacobs/enfin.htm -Peter- -- ======================== Peter Jacobs Victoria BC Canada http://www.islandnet.com/~pjacobs/homepage.htm ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: LBarkhuff@cs.com Subject: Re: M_Boats: Exumas Date: 31 Mar 2001 17:59:29 EST Funny we had the same idea......have found how to contact the mail boats and freighters.......got a phone number in Staniel Cay.....but the only bummer about the place is the lack of marine life...Found some hughmongous lobsters in the coral heads around the Exuma Cays park headquarters....no poaching allowed....Where is home for you? I am in Las Vegas...Larry ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: LBarkhuff@cs.com Subject: Re: M_Boats: Exumas Date: 31 Mar 2001 18:01:02 EST Is it possible that you guys are able to get away to do this sort of thing, or did you only do it on a vacation type thing? We are sort of semi retired and able to come and go at will, but it is hard to find others who can do the same thing....Larry ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: sparsons@canby.com (Steve Parsons) Subject: Re: M_Boats: pickups... Date: 31 Mar 2001 19:25:19 -0800 Bob, At my age and weight, I had to buy two pickups. Trouble is, it still doesn't help the AQ... Steve >Mike and Mark, > >I guess my wife wasn't kidding; 'If I get a pick-up truck, my sexual >attractiveness quotient will increase by a couple of points. If I get a >van, it will decrease to almost 0.' Seeing as I'm almost 50, maybe the >van is a better choice. ;-) > >Bob >M-15 #296 "Piccolo" <------proof that it's not the size of the >instrument.... > > >>Mike wrote; > >>It's been my observation that the number of vehicles scattered around >>an Oregonian's property is considered by some an indication of >>status and material worth. What other explanation could there be for >>the wide spread popularity of this practice.? > >> Mike >>M17-#369 > >>------------------------- > >>Mark wrote; >>Get a pickup and a blue chambray >>shirt, too (maybe even a hickory shirt if you really feel wild). You'll look >>good and feel like a good'ol boy and you can haul stuff for everybody you >>know who isn't in the same class as you. ;-) ;-) >> >>Mark tongue in cheek Dvorscak >>M17 #400 >>GRACE > > > ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: sparsons@canby.com (Steve Parsons) Subject: Re: M_Boats: pickups... Date: 31 Mar 2001 19:28:09 -0800 Ian, Douglas County and no pickup... Man, you're going to have to move to Ashland. All you need there is a pair of Berkenstocks. BTW, Ashland is the northern most point of Marin County... :-) Steve >Mark, >Wait a minute! I live in Douglas County and I don't have a pickup truck.Now >I'm feeling a little stigmatized. Does the faded,dented, ripe, 228000+ mile, >1986 4Runner count as a pickup? You remember the one that my wife won't ride >in unless she has old jeans on. Let me know as soon as possible. I can't >afford a pickup right now so I guess I'll be forced to go out and get rich >otherwise. Then I would have to buy a 60 footer with crew and I don't think >that will float in Fern Ridge Resevoir! This is already seriously affecting >my sailing time and my angst is rising even if Fern Ridge isn't! >Ian >M-17 #343 >Seaweeble > >P.S. How about if dyed Howard ,our Cocker Spaniel, black so he'd look more >like a black lab when he's in the front seat? I suppose I could buy a gun >rack but I would have to mount it on the windshield....... >P.S. Could you drive over and help me haul some stuff to the dump.....? >> > >> >> Bob, >> Personally, I'm a bit suspicious of anyone who doesn't own a pickup. They >> are all probably millionaires who pay other lower class people to haul >their >> stuff! 99% of the households in my county own a pickup, some have more >than >> one, others have an entire yard full of them in various states of repair! >> Get a pickup and a blue chambray >> shirt, too (maybe even a hickory shirt if you really feel wild). You'll >look >> good and feel like a good'ol boy and you can haul stuff for everybody you >> know who isn't in the same class as you. ;-) ;-) >> >> Mark tongue in cheek Dvorscak >> M17 #400 >> GRACE >> >> > > > >