From: rc2222@pacbell.net Subject: M_Boats: Really Date: 01 Jan 1997 09:32:29 -0800 Happy New Year to All! Since March of '96 I have been waiting for delivery my new M15 to be delivered by Chuck McCoy of AL&D. After communicating with Jerry Montgomery and Tom Wilkinson I've concluded that Chuck McCoy has not been honest with me, to say the least. I felt it's time to get on with it so - I bought a used M15 which Bert had brought to our attention a few weeks ago. Thank you, Bert!! I'ts hard to believe I really am the proud owner of a Montgomery 15. - Hull number 288, built 6/84. I want to try "REALLY" out on San Francisco Bay but it's pouring rain and the alley leading to my yard where I keep "REALLY" is flooded and will take a couple weeks to dry out. I've been setting the sails on the trailer in the rain and I'm having a ball!! My wife, Becky, and son, David, think I'm nuts. Rich Cottrell REALLY ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: Joe Kidd Subject: Re: M_Boats: Really Date: 01 Jan 1997 19:21:15 -0800 At 09:32 AM 1/1/97 -0800, you wrote: >Happy New Year to All! > > Since March of '96 I have been waiting for delivery my new M15 >to be delivered by Chuck McCoy of AL&D. After communicating >with Jerry Montgomery and Tom Wilkinson I've concluded that >Chuck McCoy has not been honest with me, to say the least. > > I felt it's time to get on with it so - I bought a used M15 which Bert had >brought to our attention a few weeks ago. Thank you, Bert!! I'ts hard >to believe I really am the proud owner of a Montgomery 15. - Hull >number 288, built 6/84. I want to try "REALLY" out on San Francisco >Bay but it's pouring rain and the alley leading to my yard where I keep >"REALLY" is flooded and will take a couple weeks to dry out. I've >been setting the sails on the trailer in the rain and I'm having a ball!! > My wife, Becky, and son, David, think I'm nuts. > >Rich Cottrell >REALLY > > Rich, Happy new (to you) Montgomery 15 along with a Happy New Year. As to your rigging in the rain, one of my favorite quotes is by the first person to circumnavigate the British Isles in "Kate" just for the enjoyment of it... "Without a happy and suitable eccentricity of the person, greatness dwindles into bigness." -- E. E. Middleton, "Cruise of the Kate" - 1870 ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: Mont15@aol.com Subject: Re: M_Boats: Really Date: 02 Jan 1997 12:35:26 -0500 Rich, congraduations! You have the same year boat that I have. I suspect that you actually have a better deal than if you had received delivery on your new boat. If you have any questions or need any help setting up for boat, etc., I'd be happy to help. Take care, and may the sky clear sometime soon. I just finished a two week vacation, and the only water that has touched the hull of Kokopelli is from the sky. Bert ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: "Tom T. Wilkinson" <71574.2614@compuserve.com> Subject: M_Boats: montgomery 17 Date: 06 Jan 1997 22:46:31 EST I have come to realize that like others, I will not be getting the new boat that I ordered from Chuck McCoy. I am now looking for a Montgomery 17 to purchase. I would prefer a 4 berth model. I would appreciate any leads to available boats. Tom ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: jcrewser@Juno.Com (John S. Crews) Subject: M_Boats: Test Date: 07 Jan 1997 22:49:28 EST Just a test to see if there's any traffic on this Montgomery list anymore and/or whether I'm still a subscriber. Thanks. John Stephan Crews ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: Mont15@aol.com Subject: Re: M_Boats: montgomery 17 Date: 07 Jan 1997 23:06:01 -0500 (EST) What happened to your order? Bert ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: "Keith Diehl" Subject: Re: M_Boats: Test Date: 08 Jan 1997 08:29:21 -0700 Yup, we're still here, just involved with the holidays I expect. ---------- > From: John S. Crews > To: montgomery_boats@xmission.com > Subject: M_Boats: Test > Date: Tuesday, January 07, 1997 8:49 PM > > Just a test to see if there's any traffic on this Montgomery list anymore > and/or whether I'm still a subscriber. Thanks. > > John Stephan Crews ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: Motomike@aol.com Subject: Re: M_Boats: Test Date: 08 Jan 1997 11:20:30 -0500 (EST) I have a non-boating question. How does one incorporate a message received, with the > markers in it, in their response? Thanks. ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: Randolph I Palmer Subject: M_Boats: New guy on the list In reply to 32B77FC8.477 Date: 08 Jan 1997 11:07:03 CST Hi John Crews, et al, The list has been quiet recently. John, could you tell us about your boat? I've been going to respond to a note from Rod Johnson for quite some time and will use this opportunity to do so. A M17 is quite a change from a CT41! I'd like to hear more of your plans to sail to Alaska in your 17. Years ago, when I was 15 (I won't say how long ago) my family returned home from Alaska's interior via the the Inside Passage. At that time the thought occured to me that it would be fun to sail the coast (Misty Fiords, Ford's Terror, etc). I'd never done any sailing at that time but the thought has been seated in my mind ever since. Part of my interest in sailing on Lake Superior is to prepare myself for that journey. I always figured on getting some dreadnaught in the 30 foot range for the trip. You've done it and are now thinking of sailing a 17 footer (should I assume solo?). Needless to say, I'm curious about both trips. Randy P. ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: Stanley Townsend Subject: Re: M_Boats: Test Date: 08 Jan 1997 10:40:55 -0800 Motomike@aol.com wrote: > > I have a non-boating question. How does one incorporate a message received, > with the > markers in it, in their response? Thanks. The program you use to send and receive e-mail should add the > markers automatically when you "reply" to a message. In my case, I am using Netscape Navigator 3.0 to reply to your message. -- townsend@pacific.net (Stanley Townsend) ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: "Douglas E. Kelch" <70754.1676@compuserve.com> Subject: M_Boats: New list member Date: 08 Jan 1997 21:24:46 EST I am a new Montgomery list member and am a Montgomery 15 wanabee owner. I am hoping to find a decent used 15 within 200 mi of Washington DC. Any hints on sources of leads would be quite helpful. I am currently watching the local paper ( Washinton Post), Soundings Mag, Sailing Rag mag, the internet news group rec.boats.marketplace. What else can I do? Personal info on myself - 51 yrs old, happily married for 26 years( inspite of a tendency for me to disappear for 2 or three days on a sailboat, or because I tend to disappear...) We have two lovely daughters, 1 in college and 1 in 6 th grade. Personal sailing history - I fell in love with sailing as a charter member of the original Southern Illinois University sailing club. When I graduated and was job hunting my prime criteria was a close proximity to a source of steady, reliable ocean breezes. I learned in Penguins, Snipes, Thistles and Sunfish. The first boat I owned was a 15' Windmill which I built from scratch. I managed to build it in a 13ft living room of an apartment. but we had to climb over the bow section to use the bathroom for 4 months. The second sail boat I owned was a Tanzer 16 in which I rig some blocks and lines to allow me to steer from the bow so i could sail single handed and still fly a spinaker. My longest single trip was round trip to the 1/2 way point between Hyannis Mass and Nantucket. This happens to be out of site of any land. Next came a big time but still trailerable AMF 2100 which I named Donna's Nightmare to reflect my wifes relationship to the activity. My only daughter (at the time) and had numerous pleasant cruises on Naraganset bay. Then came daughter numeber 2 and there whent the boat. I had been limping along with with trips with friends. I now own a Sunfish and live in Northern VA and am anxious to take my youngest daughter on a few cruises before she hates being seen with a parent. NOT MUCH TIME LEFT SO HELP!!! I am looking forward to sharing the experiences of your group. Thanks, Doug Kelch ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: rc2222@pacbell.net Subject: Re: M_Boats: montgomery 17 Date: 08 Jan 1997 08:37:50 -0800 Mont15@aol.com wrote: > > What happened to your order? Bert Bert: RE: New M15 which never showed up Chuck McCoy made representations that the hull was completed and solicited additional deposits based on that representation when, in fact, he hadn't even picked up the molds for the M15 from Jerry Montgomery. I suspect that either Mr. McCoy has been making false representations in order to raise enough money to put the boats in production since he never purchased the tooling necessary to complete the M15 from Mr. Montgomery, or, Mr. McCoy is collecting deposits for the shear fun of making money the easy way. Mr. McCoy informed me on Christmas eve. that he's experiencing a cash flow problem. Chuck McCoy is a smooth talker. He drips with sincerity. I'm concerned that other unsuspecting naive folks such as I are putting up deposits for boats they may never get or deposits that will never be refunded. As Montgomery owners we should all be concerned, as Jerry Montgomery is, with the integrity of the Montgomery name. Rich Cottrell Really - M15 # 288 ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: Karen Fell Subject: Re: M_Boats: Test Date: 08 Jan 1997 22:46:50 -0800 (PST) John, Your message came through fine. I guess we all have been a little busy during the holidays. I finally will get 2 days off in a row to enjoy. I can't remember when I've had 2 in a row. I plan on sailing tomorrow if the wheather is ok off the coast of sunny california. Will post a message if I do get out. I'm planning on getting a vhf radio for emergency use in the near furure. Has anyone any imput to give? I would love the information. John Fell. P.S. Has anyone heard from luan lately? At 10:49 PM 1/7/97 EST, you wrote: >Just a test to see if there's any traffic on this Montgomery list anymore >and/or whether I'm still a subscriber. Thanks. > >John Stephan Crews > > ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: Rod and Elsa Johnson Subject: M_Boats: Re: Trip to Alaska Date: 09 Jan 1997 08:47:40 -0800 Randolph I Palmer wrote: > > I've been going to respond to a note from Rod Johnson for quite some time and > will use this opportunity to do so. A M17 is quite a change from a CT41! > I'd like to hear more of your plans to sail to Alaska in your 17. Years ago, > when I was 15 (I won't say how long ago) my family returned home from > Alaska's interior via the the Inside Passage. At that time the thought > occured to me that it would be fun to sail the coast (Misty Fiords, Ford's > Terror, etc). I'd never done any sailing at that time but the thought has > been seated in my mind ever since. Part of my interest in sailing on Lake > Superior is to prepare myself for that journey. I always figured on getting > some dreadnaught in the 30 foot range for the trip. You've done it and are > now thinking of sailing a 17 footer (should I assume solo?). Needless to > say, I'm curious about both trips. > > Randy P. > > Randy - your letter is consistant with a widespread belief that no one makes a trip thru Alaska without planning another trip there. That is partly what is behind my intentions to sail there in the M-17 - having been there I am hooked, and the Montgomery is my current sailboat and I think it will do just fine, so that is what I plan to go in.. It will surely be better than a sea kayak (lots of them up there) because one doesn't have to find a place to camp ashore every night. And it will surely be a better gunk-holer than a CT41 whose sheer bulk raised our anxiety level past the point of enjoyment in some exquisite but tiny anchorages. It is like the difference between camping out of the back of a pick-up or taking a 40' motor home. We have always enjoyed the pick-up approach more. Our trip up in the CT41 (from mid-June to late August,'95) was up the inside passage from home (Port Angeles WA) to Juneau and Sitka and back, with stops at all the towns in between and lots of isolated anchorages. The weather was mostly beautiful with only a couple spells of rainy days and the temp was cool. There was generally no wind - at least not what a CT41 needs - except in the more open spaces like Queen Charlotte Sound and Dixon Entrance, so we motored most of the way. The scenery varied from wonderful to breathtaking and there were lots of places that we would like to spend more time in. In general it was a wonderful trip. There were two basic problems, however, first that we didn't have enough time to just fool around and ended up feeling rushed - and second that my wife found the rocky, narrow channels and anchorages real scary in such a big,heavy, deep draft vessel. My reaction to her reaction didn't help any. My basic plan for our next trip is to ship the Montgomery up to SE Alaska on a barge or fish tender in the spring or early summer and then spend at least a couple months coming back down south. I have relatives up there in both the fishing and barge business who assure me of the practicality of that plan, but I haven't got any prices yet. This plan will allow a leisurely schedule, and we expect less anxiety about hitting a rock. Hopefully, there will be more opportunities to sail (vs motor) going south. I am planning the trip as if I was going solo with room for a visitor if I am lucky enough to have one. The CT41 was not set up for single-handing so letting the crew go home when she wasn't having fun anymore was not really an option like it will be on the Montgomery. There are a number of changes I am working on - anchor roller, kick-up rudder, sail sides (to improve reefing) and cockpit canopy is a minimum list - and I plan to check out the whole plan by cruising this summer thru the San Juans and Desolation Sound. The trip to Alaska is tentatively set for next year (98). Hope this answers your questions. If there are more, just ask - its my favorite subject! Rod Johnson, M-17 "Busca Brisas" 1425 W 5th, Port Angeles WA, 98363 (360)457-4081 ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: Wilsometer@aol.com Subject: M_Boats: Re: VHF handhelds Date: 09 Jan 1997 13:11:03 -0500 (EST) Karen Fell wrote: >I'm planning on getting a vhf radio for emergency use in the near furure. Has anyone any imput to give? I would love the information. Karen, I too am looking to buy a handheld VHF. I've done quite a bit of research, and Practical Sailor did an extensive test of 8 different makes and models in the November 15, 1996 issue (volume 22, #22). My highest priorities are waterproofness, battery life, and the ability to operate, or at least recharge from the boat's 12v battery if necessary. Practical Sailor rated the Icom-M1 its "clear winner" overall. The M-1 (about $270 @West) is tiny, relatively simple to use, and still worked perfectly after being submerged in a bucket for 30 minutes!! Icom also makes the M-15 (how do you like that designation!?), that is marketed as a true waterproof/submersible, is a little larger, and costs about $100 more. I noticed that West Marine did not call the M-1 a submersible radio as they did the M-15, so I called Icom to see what was up. They indicated that the M-1 is not rated as a submersible, but is well gasketed enough that it would likely survive a dunking. They assert that the M-15, on the other hand, is a true submersible. I've seen them advertise the M-15 at boat shows by leaving a radio on inside a big glass jar full of water! The Standard HX 250-S, which was my first choice before reading the Practical Sailor tests, drowned moments after submersion, so I ruled it out. Battery life is another consideration. Most handhelds have a rating in # of hours based on percentages of time spent transmitting, receiving, and standby time. Based on the West Marine tests (see catalog, page 13), with 5% transmit, 5% recieve, 90% standby, battery life varies with different manufacturers/models from 4.5 to 10 hours! The Icom M-1 tested at 4.5 hours, the M-15 at 8 hours. For this reason, I have decided to go with the M-15. I will be doing some rather extended cruises (at least for a 15' boat), and would like to have the radio functional all day (or at least have the capacity to do so). Icom sells an adaptor for charging the battery from a 12v ship/car battery. By charging the ship battery by solar panel during the day, I can then charge the VHF's battery at night while I am asleep (one hopes). You can also buy additional handheld battery/batteries, but they are expensive ($75-$150 depending on the radio). It is worth mentioning that all handhelds are limited to a transmit power of 6 watts (though I've never seen a handheld with more than 5) compared to 25 watts for a "fixed mount" radio. Perhaps more important than transmit power is the type and location of antenna. The handheld's little rubber "whip" can't hope to compete with a proper masthead antenna. Some manufacturers sell adapters for the handhelds that allow them to use a remotely mounted antenna. All of this is probably getting beyond the concerns of most, but keep in mind that there are trade-offs that come with the convenience of the handhelds. If you do choose to buy a radio that is not waterproof, you can buy a plastic enclosure for it (like West's "Aquasafe"), though it makes the radio more akward to use. Also, watch out for manufacturer's claims for waterproofness. There are a number of definitions of waterproof, and many that claimed to be so failed the Practical Sailor test!! Yet another dissertation (sorry) from, Scott Grometer, M15 #478 (no name yet!) ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: Wilsometer@aol.com Subject: Re: M_Boats: Re: Trip to Alaska Date: 09 Jan 1997 13:24:14 -0500 (EST) Rod and Elsa: Your trip from Alaska south sounds great! I have done a portion (southern 2/3) of this in a bigger boat, and have been toying with the idea of doing the same in the M15, though my experience in the Queen Charlottes has left me a little tentative. Perhaps with proper planning, and the willingness/time to wait out the big swells, it could be safer! We are going to be in the Jervis inlet/Princess Louisa and Desolation Sound areas this coming August--maybe we will see you there!! Scott Grometer, M15, #478 ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: sethm@adfg.state.ak.us (Seth Macinko) Subject: M_Boats: Re: Trip to Alaska Date: 09 Jan 1997 15:29:42 -0700 (MST) OK all you Alaska dreamers, here's an open invitation: Let's hold an Alaska Montgomery sail-in. They do it all the time in the Bay Area so why not here? I hearby volunteer and (hearing no objection) appoint myself chair of the local arrangements committee. I live in Juneau and sail my M-15 (#200) here from about April-Sept. I too have thought about picking my way south over the course of a summer. It seems to me that the Alaska Marine Highway (a.k.a. ferry) system affords some interesting opportunities for dealing with the bigger crossings. As for the logistics of shipping/barging, I barged my M-15 (on the Trail-Rite trailer) from Seattle to Juneau when I bought it, for just under $600. The other option is the ferry which leaves from Bellingham (about the same price I recall) or you could trailer up to Prince Rupert BC and then put the boat on the ferry there (about $200 to get to Juneau). Besides shipping, you have a lot of options as to how far North you want to start from or sail to (e.g. Prince Rupert, Ketchikan, Wrangell, Petersburg, Juneau). Regards to all, Seth ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: Joe Kidd Subject: Re: M_Boats: Cap'n Kidd Date: 10 Jan 1997 16:09:06 -0800 At 07:37 AM 12/9/96 CST, you wrote: > >I just had to "Poca A" little fun at our own Captain Kidd... You got a great >boat at a great price and who can begrudge you that? Welcome to the >(slightly crazy) world of M_boats! I have yet to meet a M_owner I didn't >like. I'm sure you're not an exception. Happy sailing, Joe! >Randy P. >M23 "Early Light" >M15 "Oui-1" >M7-8 > > Randy, Anyone with as many Montgomery sailboats as you might be able to answer my question. I have decided to add nylon sail slugs to my mainsail. I have ordered a dozen nylon sail slugs and shackles from West Marine, but I can't find any literature or technical data regarding installation or spacing of the slugs. I'm pretty handy with tools and techno-stuff, but I hesitate punching (or burning) holes in my main until I'm sure of what I'm doing. I am tired of having the main fall all over the cockpit when I strike it. The sail slugs should give me a lot more control, especially when reefing. Any Montgomery owners out there who has tried it successfully -- or who have tales of grief over a botched attempt at adding slugs? Two minor modification I have made on my boat trailer might be of interest to other M-owners. On some steep launch ramps, the V-bow stop sometimes caught under the edge of the boat deck. One time I accidentally dinged the fiberglass. To remedy the problem, I cut a small notch on the forward under side of the horizontal bow stop, bent it down about 10 degrees and rewelded it. With a little repositioning of the mast carrier/winch mount it worked like a charm. While I was at it, I cut a few inches off the top of the mast carrier, leaving just enough clearance for the mast to clear the bow pulpit. I drilled another hole and re-mounted the rubber V-pad. I also shortened the aft stainless mast carrier about six inches. It creates a slight head knocker when the mast is down and I want to get into the cabin, but it accomplished my objective: I am now able to take the boat in and out of my garage while leaving the mast on the boat. It solved the mast storage problem when in "drydock" and, best of all, saves a lot of time when I take "Poco A Poco" out of the garage for a sail. By the way, just in case the editor of the Montgomery Newsletter reads this, I never gave my mailing address. It is: 5710 Vernal Fall, Mariposa, CA 95338. Joe Kidd -- M-15 "Poco A Poco" ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: anasasio@zapcom.net (John Anastasio) Subject: M_Boats: Alaska dream'n Date: 10 Jan 1997 20:01:57 -0800 Prince Rupert, Ketchikan, Wrangell, Petersburg, Juneau: Okay, I admit it. I'm intrigued. And maybe I'm a getting old, but a few concerns leap to mind TEMPERATURE; I've been trying to extend the sailing season down here north of San Francisco for several years, but last year's New Year's sail in 48 degree temp and 15 knots lead to a hypothermia type situation after about 4 hours when single-handing. Also tried the San Juans in March in the M17 three years ago, but pulled out when it started snowing. Sleeping aboard there then led to horrific condensation on the cabin top which soaked everything. So this year I got the bright idea to try the new generation of ceramic heaters and ordered one from Boat/US, which had a 12-V 5amp model for $25 which plugs into a cigarette receptacle I have in the bulkhead. I figured the 84-amp/hr battery could therefore power this baby all through the night. Well, I just tried it out last week and the heat produced - 70 watts and about 700 btus/hr was not enough to stave off the cold. The device was like a hair dryer for a Barbie doll. Don't waste your money. After the sun went down the temperature inside dropped from 60 to 46 degrees in two hours. I gave up. Figured it would take a heater at least three times as powerful, 15A, to do any good. They make them, for RVs and maybe I can borrow one. In any case, the question is, what kind of temperatures can we expect on the water up there in the summer? CURRENT: I know the current in Puget Sound can reach 7 knots. I've read it's much more in the Queen Charlett's and north. Won't it be a problem for an M15 that does 4.75 knots max and M17 that does 5.25 knots max? Or does one just plan to go with the flow? MOSQUITOES: Do they really have wing spreads of 2 inches? ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: Joe Kidd Subject: Re: M_Boats: Alaska dream'n Date: 10 Jan 1997 20:45:50 -0800 At 08:01 PM 1/10/97 -0800, you wrote: >Prince Rupert, Ketchikan, Wrangell, Petersburg, Juneau: Okay, I admit it. >I'm intrigued. And maybe I'm a getting old, but a few concerns leap to mind > > >TEMPERATURE; I've been trying to extend the sailing season down here >north of San Francisco for several years, but last year's New Year's sail >in 48 degree temp and 15 knots lead to a hypothermia type situation after >about 4 hours when single-handing. Also tried the San Juans in March in the >M17 three years ago, but pulled out when it started snowing. Sleeping >aboard there then led to horrific condensation on the cabin top which >soaked everything. So this year I got the bright idea to try the new >generation of ceramic heaters and ordered one from Boat/US, which had a >12-V 5amp model for $25 which plugs into a cigarette receptacle I have in >the bulkhead. I figured the 84-amp/hr battery could therefore power this >baby all through the night. Well, I just tried it out last week and the >heat produced - 70 watts and about 700 btus/hr was not enough to stave off >the cold. The device was like a hair dryer for a Barbie doll. Don't waste >your money. After the sun went down the temperature inside dropped from 60 >to 46 degrees in two hours. I gave up. Figured it would take a heater at >least three times as powerful, 15A, to do any good. They make them, for RVs >and maybe I can borrow one. In any case, the question is, what kind of >temperatures can we expect on the water up there in the summer? > >CURRENT: I know the current in Puget Sound can reach 7 knots. I've read >it's much more in the Queen Charlett's and north. Won't it be a problem for >an M15 that does 4.75 knots max and M17 that does 5.25 knots max? Or does >one just plan to go with the flow? > >MOSQUITOES: Do they really have wing spreads of 2 inches? > > > Anastasio, Try a catalytic heater. Even with the boat buttoned up, you will have enough oxygen to prevent asphyxiation. You might even try a propane radiant heater (a lot of fishermen around here use them in open boats and keep relatively warm) for the initial warm-up, then go with the catalytic heater to maintain the heat during the night. A relatively inexpensive catalytic heater will heat for about eight hours on a quart of fuel -- plus you save your batteries. Regarding currents in the San Juans, Gulf Islands and Desolation Sound, the farther north you get in the Straits of Georgia the less extreme the currents. Even then, it is wise to schedule passages to take advantage of the currents. If you get caught in a channel going against the current you can sometimes work your way to the edge of the tide stream where you usually pick up an eddy where the water is more calm or possibly flowing counter to the current. If all else fails, you can motor-sail (which you'll do a lot of in that area, anyway). Singlehanders in the area learn to anchor until the tides are favorable. Besides, in a Montgomer 15 or 17, why get in a hurry? Joe Kidd ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: anasasio@zapcom.net (John Anastasio) Subject: Re: M_Boats: montgomery 17 Date: 10 Jan 1997 23:11:40 -0800 >Mont15@aol.com wrote: >> >> What happened to your order? Bert > > >Bert: >RE: New M15 which never showed up Rich, if you could give us the latest phone number for Chuckie, I know we'd all like to call him and express the full intensity and depth of our personal concern. What would be even better would be an address. Personal visits are always so much more productive when it comes to the exchange of cash or goods. ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: Wilsometer@aol.com Subject: M_Boats: Re: slugs Date: 11 Jan 1997 04:06:09 -0500 (EST) >I am tired of having the main fall all over the cockpit when I strike it. >The sail slugs should give me a lot more control, especially when reefing. >Any Montgomery owners out there who has tried it successfully -- or who have tales of grief over a botched attempt at adding slugs? Bert (on the M15 R &D boat, "Kokopelli") has added slugs to his main, including the necessary lacing to accomodate two sets of reef points. His boat is stored with rig up, so he also has a topping lift. He also has a sail cover, so main is stored "in situ" on boom. It all seemed to work fairly well when I sailed with him, but probably better to solicit his opinion directly. Scott Grometer, M15 #478 ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: Wilsometer@aol.com Subject: M_Boats: BC waters not bad Date: 11 Jan 1997 05:13:16 -0500 (EST) >I'm intrigued. And maybe I'm a getting old, but a few concerns leap to mind >In any case, the question is, what kind of temperatures can we expect on the water up there in the summer? >CURRENT: I know the current in Puget Sound can reach 7 knots. >I've read it's much more in the Queen Charlett's and north. Won't it be a problem for an M15 that does 4.75 knots max and M17 that does 5.25 knots max? Or does one just plan to go with the flow? John: I don't claim to be an expert on the region, but I have spent a number of summers poking around the waters between Seattle and Prince Rupert (admittedly on much larger boats). Maybe its been a series of flukes, but the weather has almost always been more hospitable than what I usually experience at home on the SF Bay. This last summer (July and early August) we gunkholed around the Gulf Islands, and later around Lasquetti and Texada Islands. We had one day of rain in three weeks, temperatures were consistently in the 70's during the day, 50's at night, and we got decent sunburns. We slept in the cockpit (not a Montgomery) and watched the stars every night. It isn't always like this, but in the 15 or so years that I have been going up there, I've been amazed at how good the weather can be. As for currents, I think the big numbers can be misleading. It is true that there are some pretty stiff currents between some Islands and in some of the narrows/inlets, but for the most part, and especially in the more open waters, I have not found the currents to be that limiting a factor. If you use the Canadian Hydrographic tidal and current charts, pay attention to the sailing directions on the charts, plan to cover *realistic* distances, and carry lots of fuel, I don't think you will be dissapointed. If you try to shoot Malibu Rapids an hour or two before slack water like I did in 1981 (very bad idea), then you might have some problems. I remember watching the world spin around while we tried to power the 30' boat out of a whirlpool. We came dangerously close to putting the boat on the rocks, but this was sheer stupidity and impatience on my part. I think the only area that I would have some reservations about crossing in the M15 is the Queen Charlotte Strait/Sound, but that may be the result of an earlier bad experience. I hope to put my money where my over active mouth is this coming summer when I take the M15 to some of the places I've been in bigger boats. Alaska '98?? Scott Grometer, M15 #478 ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: Saltm17@aol.com Subject: Re: M_Boats: Alaska dream'n Date: 11 Jan 1997 09:58:49 -0500 (EST) Anastasio, I use a coleman lantern in my M17 on cold nights. Even when I was in MT it heated up the cabin quick. I had it during a real rainstorm, and it dried the cabin out enough by the time I went to bed, that things stayed dry all night. I have the old pump type, just a masochist I guess, buy you can buy the canister type. John ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: rc2222@pacbell.net Subject: Re: M_Boats: montgomery 17 Date: 11 Jan 1997 07:54:34 -0800 John Anastasio wrote: > > >Mont15@aol.com wrote: > >> > >> What happened to your order? Bert > > > > > >Bert: > >RE: New M15 which never showed up > > Rich, if you could give us the latest phone number for Chuckie, I know we'd > all like to call him and express the full intensity and depth of our > personal concern. What would be even better would be an address. Personal > visits are always so much more productive when it comes to the exchange of > cash or goods. John: Terry has asked me to write an article for the upcoming newletter regarding my experience with Chuckie. I'm working on it. Jerry Montgomery called me yesterday and left a message that he's located the molds for the M15 in Washington. Chuckie is reportedly on his way to the east coast with my new M15- I thought I told him I lived in the San Francisco Bay Area. Oh, well. Really Rich ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: Mont15@aol.com Subject: M_Boats: sail slugs Date: 11 Jan 1997 16:48:48 -0500 (EST) Plastic sail slugs work great on the 15. I had a Hogin Sails install them as well as jack lines so that I could reef. Without the jack lines, the sail bunches up and doesn't reef well. I keep a track stop ( pg. 487 of the West Marine Catalog) to keep the sail from coming out of the slot, and another one is under the boom to keep it from dropping on the deck. The system works fairly well although the main still needs to be pulled down. It, of course, remains on the mast. I would strongly recomment it. Bert ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: Mont15@aol.com Subject: M_Boats: Scott/boom tent Date: 11 Jan 1997 19:50:07 -0500 (EST) Scott, I finally finished my boom tent. If you make one, it will be much easier; you'll have a pattern. In addition, you won't, I trust, be working with recycled material. I did, and it was a bad idea. We were going to go sailing today, but it was cold and supposed to possibly rain. I saw a patch of blue sky for the first time today at 4:30. I hope all is well. When I switched computers, I lost your e mail address. Please send it. Bert ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: Joe Kidd Subject: Re: M_Boats: sail slugs Date: 11 Jan 1997 16:20:58 -0800 At 04:48 PM 1/11/97 -0500, you wrote: >Plastic sail slugs work great on the 15. I had a Hogin Sails install them as >well as jack lines so that I could reef. Without the jack lines, the sail >bunches up and doesn't reef well. I keep a track stop ( pg. 487 of the West >Marine Catalog) to keep the sail from coming out of the slot, and another one >is under the boom to keep it from dropping on the deck. The system works >fairly well although the main still needs to be pulled down. It, of course, >remains on the mast. I would strongly recomment it. Bert > > Bert, Thanks for the information. I thought sail slugs would probably work, but it is good to hear from someone who had tried them successfully. I ordered the extra track stop from West Marine when I ordered the slugs (I already use one under the boom). Thanks for sharing your positive experience and suggestions. Question: what is the spacing between the slugs on your sail? How many were used? Are they sewn on; or were they put on with plastic shackles? If shackles were used, did the sailmaker use a hot punch to "burn" the hole (to prevent fraying) where the bolt attaches the shackle to the sail? I am particularly interested in the placement of the sail slugs at the top of the sail. Some sails on larger sailboats attach double slugs on the fiber sail head stiffener. On smaller boats a single top slug just below the head stiffener is often used. How did Hogin do yours? Thanks again for helping me out. Joe Kidd ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: TOMMYVAL@aol.com Subject: M_Boats: receiving updates and info Date: 12 Jan 1997 15:18:48 -0500 (EST) Hi, Im a Montgomery 17 owner. 1993 model year and im interested in getting whatever infor/updates you have. Pls forward to TommyVal@aol.com Thx Tommy ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: Saltm17@aol.com Subject: Re: M_Boats: receiving updates and info Date: 12 Jan 1997 22:36:49 -0500 (EST) "Tommy", You are getting though! John ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: becker-r@postoffice.worldnet.att.net (Robert Becker) Subject: M_Boats: SF bay tides/currents Date: 13 Jan 1997 04:46:39 +0000 There is a great freeware program of tides and currents for the SF bay and coast from Monterey to Mendocino featureing. I have the Mac version and assume it is also available for the pc. Download as instructed below. If you have problems write to Mike at crotchety@aol.com. The 1997 SF-Tides program can be downloaded: (a) FTP from either of: ftp.netcom.com/pub/sh/shared/ members.aol.com/crotchety/public/ (look for version 1.2.1) Notes: - Files are in binhex format - need *Stuffit Expander* to decode. - *Netscape* sometimes has problems accessing the Netcom site. But it works with *Fetch* or *Anarchie*. - Currently the FTP-able program is more up to date (an annoying buggy feature has been corrected) than the AOL version below. (b) Alternatively from America Online: AOL keyword - sail > file library > sailing software (presently version 1.2 only - buggy feature included) The program is FREEWARE from now on. Graphs are printable now. Enjoy, - Mike Content-Type: Text/Plain; name="SF-Tides_1.2.1-97.sit.hqx" Content-Id: <0_6780_853113014@emout15.mail.aol.com.36955> Good luck, Bob ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: Randolph I Palmer Subject: Re: M_Boats: Cap'n Kidd Date: 13 Jan 1997 7:41:09 CST Hi Joe, I have sail slugs on my M23 and have considered adding to them to my M15's sail now that I have a topping lift and a sailcover for her. I'm planning on adding a second reef to the main so the slug project would be a natural to do at the same time. I've checked out prices from Sailrite kits but I've found a sailmaker in Minnesota that can do it for me for about the same price. The drawback to doing the later is that I'll never become a good sailmaker myself. (I haven't made that a life's goal at this point...) One thing I'd look for is the placement of the slugs so they don't interfere with the reefing. Good luck, Randy P. ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: Peter Balcziunas Subject: Re: M_Boats: Re: slugs Date: 13 Jan 1997 11:03:59 -0500 (EST) My experience with Slugs has been mixed, but largely negative since they tend to twist slightly and bind in internal slots. (Slides on external track are better when that is an option.) With slugs one is almost forced to head into irons to luff the sail (thus relieving tension), which is probably not a badthing to do in any event when reefing.... I wonder, however, if adding slugs is the best response to your problem. Having spent considerable time sailing New England Catboats having scads of canvas, I came to value topping lifts and lazy jacks as the best forms of sail control when reefing. The topping lift keeps the boom out of the cockpit and the lazy jacks help the sail flake onto the boom for easy reefing. Lazy jacks come in all levels of complexity, with some adjusting on the boom (easy on an M-15) and others via running rigging off the mast. You might also consider "jiffy reefing" systems which use just two lines running through cringles on the sail fore and aft. In this system, one relieves the halyard a few feet to drop the head of the sail and then pulls down the luff and roach reefing lines (which can be made fast on the boom using small horn, cam, clam, or jam cleats). Once the lines are fast, one simply retensions the main halyard. The beauty of the system lies in its speed and simplicity for singlehanders and the fact that it can be accomplished from the safety of the cockpit. Any good sailmaker can add a couple of cringle grommets for less than $10. Hope this helps. Peter B. On Sat, 11 Jan 1997 Wilsometer@aol.com wrote: > >I am tired of having the main fall all over the cockpit when I strike it. > >The sail slugs should give me a lot more control, especially when reefing. > >Any Montgomery owners out there who has tried it successfully -- or who have > tales of grief over a botched attempt at adding slugs? > > Bert (on the M15 R &D boat, "Kokopelli") has added slugs to his main, > including the necessary lacing to accomodate two sets of reef points. His > boat is stored with rig up, so he also has a topping lift. He also has a > sail cover, so main is stored "in situ" on boom. It all seemed to work > fairly well when I sailed with him, but probably better to solicit his > opinion directly. > > Scott Grometer, M15 #478 > ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: Motomike@aol.com Subject: Re: M_Boats: sail slugs - tips Date: 13 Jan 1997 11:55:45 -0500 (EST) I had grommets installed on my M-17 mainsail four years ago and I really enjoy the convenience for anchoring and reefing. I installed a topping lift at the same time. Before I had a local sail repair guy install the grommets and slugs I called the sailmaker, Kern Ferguson on Kern's Sails. He discouraged me from installing slugs on such a small sail because of performance concerns and because he just didn't think that it was much of a bother to not have them. I told him that they were very important to me and that I intended to install them anyway. Here are his suggestions: 1. Install #0 spur grommets every 24-26" from the top down. 2. Do not place grommets any closer than 15" above large reef grommets. 3. Use 1/2" nylon stap webbing to sew sail slug to the head board. 4. Make sure grommet edges do not bump up against bolt rope, they could chafe. Inititially, I only had one slug at the headboard. This caused some resistance when raising the sail as it was installed at a slot opening that was about 1 3/4" from the top of the headboard. A second slug sewn above it improved the raising dramatically. In use, I find that it is quite easy and fast to reef the main single-handed as I have a mast track lock. And, one or two bungees lightly wrapped around the mainsail when it is down conveniently secures it to the mast. I really enjoy having them. - Mike. ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: Joe Kidd Subject: Re: M_Boats: Re: slugs Date: 13 Jan 1997 16:48:09 -0800 At 11:03 AM 1/13/97 -0500, you wrote: >My experience with Slugs has been mixed, but largely negative since they >tend to twist slightly and bind in internal slots. (Slides on external >track are better when that is an option.) With slugs one is almost forced >to head into irons to luff the sail (thus relieving tension), which is >probably not a badthing to do in any event when reefing.... > >I wonder, however, if adding slugs is the best response to your problem. >Having spent considerable time sailing New England Catboats having scads >of canvas, I came to value topping lifts and lazy jacks as the best >forms of sail control when reefing. The topping lift keeps the boom out >of the cockpit and the lazy jacks help the sail flake onto the boom for >easy reefing. Lazy jacks come in all levels of complexity, with some >adjusting on the boom (easy on an M-15) and others via running rigging off >the mast. > >You might also consider "jiffy reefing" systems which use just two lines >running through cringles on the sail fore and aft. In this system, one >relieves the halyard a few feet to drop the head of the sail and then >pulls down the luff and roach reefing lines (which can be made fast on the >boom using small horn, cam, clam, or jam cleats). Once the lines are >fast, one simply retensions the main halyard. The beauty of the system >lies in its speed and simplicity for singlehanders and the fact that it >can be accomplished from the safety of the cockpit. Any good sailmaker >can add a couple of cringle grommets for less than $10. > >Hope this helps. Peter B. > >On Sat, 11 Jan 1997 >Wilsometer@aol.com wrote: > >> >I am tired of having the main fall all over the cockpit when I strike it. >> >The sail slugs should give me a lot more control, especially when reefing. >> >Any Montgomery owners out there who has tried it successfully -- or who have >> tales of grief over a botched attempt at adding slugs? >> >> Bert (on the M15 R &D boat, "Kokopelli") has added slugs to his main, >> including the necessary lacing to accomodate two sets of reef points. His >> boat is stored with rig up, so he also has a topping lift. He also has a >> sail cover, so main is stored "in situ" on boom. It all seemed to work >> fairly well when I sailed with him, but probably better to solicit his >> opinion directly. >> >> Scott Grometer, M15 #478 >> > > Peter, Thanks for the information. This slug business is becoming complicated. UPS just delivered my West Marine order, but I think I'll research this a bit more before I begin to tackle the installation myself. I had a topping lift on my Alacrity 19 and it really helped keep the boom out of the cockpit while I worked with the mainsail. It also makes it easier to rig a boom tent while at anchor. I always planned to install both a topping lift and lazy jacks on "Poco." I appreciate your suggestions. Joe ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: Joe Kidd Subject: Re: M_Boats: sail slugs - tips Date: 13 Jan 1997 16:57:08 -0800 At 11:55 AM 1/13/97 -0500, you wrote: >I had grommets installed on my M-17 mainsail four years ago and I really >enjoy the convenience for anchoring and reefing. I installed a topping lift >at the same time. Before I had a local sail repair guy install the grommets >and slugs I called the sailmaker, Kern Ferguson on Kern's Sails. > >He discouraged me from installing slugs on such a small sail because of >performance concerns and because he just didn't think that it was much of a >bother to not have them. I told him that they were very important to me and >that I intended to install them anyway. Here are his suggestions: >1. Install #0 spur grommets every 24-26" from the top down. >2. Do not place grommets any closer than 15" above large reef grommets. >3. Use 1/2" nylon stap webbing to sew sail slug to the head board. >4. Make sure grommet edges do not bump up against bolt rope, they could >chafe. > >Inititially, I only had one slug at the headboard. This caused some >resistance when raising the sail as it was installed at a slot opening that >was about 1 3/4" from the top of the headboard. A second slug sewn above it >improved the raising dramatically. In use, I find that it is quite easy and >fast to reef the main single-handed as I have a mast track lock. And, one or >two bungees lightly wrapped around the mainsail when it is down conveniently >secures it to the mast. > >I really enjoy having them. - Mike. > > > > > Mike, Wow! These suggestions keep getting better and better. Your information was the most detailed I've received so far. I especially appreciate hearing about your experience with the double slugs on the headboard. One thing I'm learning: "Fleas come with every dog." Eventually I'll have enough information to make an educated decision about the slug installation. I think I'm with you on "installing them anyway,' simply because I, too, want the added convenience and ease when singlehanding. Again, I appreciate your interest. Joe ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: Motomike@aol.com Subject: Re: M_Boats: sail slugs - tips - P.S. Date: 14 Jan 1997 09:29:22 -0500 (EST) After rereading my "sail slugs - tips" I remembered that the shackles that I ordered with the slides had pins that were too big for size #0 grommets, so, I had #1 grommets installed instead. I don't know if the sail was cut with a punch or a hot knife for the grommets, but I see no signs of unusual wear around them after four years of hard use. One other thing I should mention is that occasionally on a hard reach one or two sections of the bolt rope will vibrate against the mast. I only experience this two or three times a year. It's a small annoyance and it goes away with a slight change in course or wind. Also, it sometimes helps to adjust the luff tension with the downhaul. Happy Sailing! ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: Rod and Elsa Johnson Subject: M_Boats: M-boats: AK sail-in/ Seth Date: 14 Jan 1997 15:32:50 -0800 Seth Your idea of a Montgomery sail-in in Alaska sounds great and I second your appointment as local arrangements chairman. My first choice of "when" would be early summer '98; my 2nd would be after mid-summer this year. But I am excited about anytime. Let me know if I can help. Rod Johnson, Port Angeles WA M-17 "Busca Brisas" ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: "Douglas E. Kelch" <70754.1676@compuserve.com> Subject: M_Boats: M15 and trailering info wanted. Date: 15 Jan 1997 20:56:14 -0500 I am looking for a small crusing boat and the M15 sounds ideal but I have never seen one. Are any of you reasonably close to to Reston VA and if so would you be willing to show off your M15 to me. I have the money for an M17 but don't believe I have the money for an adequate tow vehicle as I expect to be towing whatever boat I buy 3k to 6k miles / yr and I don't want to kill the family car. What do you use to tow these boats with? Thanks in advance Doug ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: "Douglas E. Kelch" <70754.1676@compuserve.com> Subject: M_Boats: Found an ad for an M17! Date: 15 Jan 1997 20:56:22 -0500 I remember a recent list member looking for an M17. I found this ad for a M17 on the datanet section of Sounding magazines web page while looking for an M15. I hope it helps someone. $5,000.00 TEXAS 17'00" MONTGOMERY MONTGOMERY 17 - 1978 / Day Sailer / Sloop / Sail / Outboard / 4 Sails, Port-a-Potti, Recent bottom, very clean. Higgins Pier 21 Yacht Brokers Watergate Yacht Ctr, Ste. 1460 Clear Lake Shores, TX 77565 713-334-7533 | FAX 713-538-2441 Thanks Doug ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: Rod and Elsa Johnson Subject: M_Boats: M17 trailering info for Doug Date: 15 Jan 1997 20:19:40 -0800 Douglas E. Kelch wrote: > > I am looking for a small crusing boat and the M15 sounds ideal but I have > never seen one. > Are any of you reasonably close to to Reston VA and if so would you be > willing to show off your M15 to me. > > I have the money for an M17 but don't believe I have the money for > an adequate tow vehicle as I expect to be towing whatever boat I buy 3k to > 6k miles / yr and I don't want to kill the family car. > > What do you use to tow these boats with? > > Thanks in advance > > DougI have an M-17 that I tow with a GMC S-15 small pickup, equipped with 4.3l v-6 engine and a factory tow package. The boat is on the stock Trail-Right trailer (without brakes). It all works real well on the highway, altho gas mileage takes a beating. I wish it had brakes altho I haven't really needed them(yet). Also wish it was galvanized and had an extension tongue since the salt water is tough on both the trailer and the truck. But, all things considered, I'm doing OK with what I've got. I don't think I would want to go very far with a smaller vehicle though Rod Johnson, Port Angeles, WA M-17 #408 "Busca Brisas" ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: Wilsometer@aol.com Subject: Re: M_Boats: M15 and trailering info wanted. Date: 17 Jan 1997 03:39:50 -0500 (EST) In a message dated 1/16/97 2:51:26 AM, Doug wrote: <> Doug- I am sorry to say that I am on the "other" coast (California), but you are free to look at my boat if you ever get out this way. I think I can speak to the issue of tow vehicles and trailering, however. I have a 1990 Ford Ranger long bed pickup with the 2.3L, 100hp engine and a manual transmission. My inclination was to buy an M17 until I learned of the weight difference between it and the M15. My M15 weighs about 750# empty plus 250-300# for the stock trailer (or so I am told). The M17 tips the scale somewhere around 1500# sans trailer, and depending on who you talk to. I am not sure what the trailer for the M17 weighs, but suffice it to say that it must be somewhat heavier than one for the M15. Anyway, I bought an M15 and hauled it over the Rockies, the Sierras, and everything in between, and in my case, the M15 proved a wise decision. It was slow going enough, and I did not have an outboard motor or the fuel, water, gadgets, food, etc. that I would normally travel with. I will say, however, that if one lived in a perfectly flat area, and was only going to tow the boat short distances between home and launching, the 4 cylinder could probably hack it. I've towed a 2000# construction air compressor for short distances, though not up a launch ramp!! I would say that a good rule of thumb is that if you have a four cylinder, you are propably better off with the M15. If you have a six cylinder, but front wheel drive, you still might want to stay away from the M17. If you have a six or eight with rear wheel drive, the M17 should be no problem (provided they aren't wheezing there last breaths). Automatic transmissions are almost always preferable for towing over manuals (see your manufacturers ratings for both), and an external transmission cooler (for automatics) is a real good idea, especially for climbing. Good luck either way!! Scott Grometer, M15 #478 ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: Randy Graves Subject: RE: M_Boats: M15 and trailering info wanted. Date: 16 Jan 1997 08:07:34 -0700 Doug, Welcome to the list. We tow our M-15 with our Toyota 4-Runner. A = typical tow trip includes, M-15, family of 5, 1 dog, and the boat loaded = with all our camping gear. We typically tow 3K miles a year. The only = problem we have had with towing has been the tires on the trailer. We = switched to 12" car radials late this last summer hoping to solve the = heat disintegration problem. The 3.0L 6 cyl tows all just fine, even at = 5K feet. Randy ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: Joe Kidd Subject: Re: M_Boats: sail slugs - tips - P.S. Date: 17 Jan 1997 19:14:24 -0800 At 09:29 AM 1/14/97 -0500, you wrote: >After rereading my "sail slugs - tips" I remembered that the shackles that I >ordered with the slides had pins that were too big for size #0 grommets, so, >I had #1 grommets installed instead. I don't know if the sail was cut with a >punch or a hot knife for the grommets, but I see no signs of unusual wear >around them after four years of hard use. >One other thing I should mention is that occasionally on a hard reach one or >two sections of the bolt rope will vibrate against the mast. I only >experience this two or three times a year. It's a small annoyance and it >goes away with a slight change in course or wind. Also, it sometimes helps >to adjust the luff tension with the downhaul. Happy Sailing! > > Mike, Pete, et al, After all the great information I recieved from everyone regarding sail slugs, I decided it would be less risky -- and probably no more expensive -- to have Kurt Larsen of Larsen Sails in Santa Cruz make the modifications. When I talked with him, he definitely advised grommets, no matter how I secured the slugs to the mainsail. So, today I packed up the sail and sent it to him. He'll add grommets, slugs and (and whatever) plus give the sail a good inspection, repair or reinforce anything that needs fixing, and possibly add another set of reef points. He's also going to quote a price on a new main and 110% jib. I'll let you know how everything turns out. Cap'n Kidd - M-15 "Poca A Poco" ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: "Keith Diehl" Subject: M_Boats: A Test Message for Dick Date: 18 Jan 1997 13:21:45 -0700 OK Dick, you should receive this at your new e-mail address. Keith Diehl -- Salt Lake City http://www.xmission.com/~kdiehl ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: Mont15@aol.com Subject: Re: M_Boats: sail slugs - tips - P.S. Date: 18 Jan 1997 19:32:29 -0500 (EST) I would strongly suggest another set of reef points. If you use a second reef and a storm jib, you can sail in winds of 25 knots with not problem. Bert ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: brinefly@soft-link.com (Dick Allgire) Subject: Re: M_Boats: A Test Message for Dick Date: 18 Jan 1997 18:38:38 -0700 >OK Dick, you should receive this at your new e-mail address. > > >Keith Diehl -- Salt Lake City >http://www.xmission.com/~kdiehl Got it..and thanks. Keep your faith in all beautiful things; in the sun when it is hidden, in the Spring when it is gone. -Roy R. Gilson ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: Joe Kidd Subject: Re: M_Boats: sail slugs - tips - P.S. Date: 18 Jan 1997 19:23:50 -0800 At 07:32 PM 1/18/97 -0500, you wrote: >I would strongly suggest another set of reef points. If you use a second >reef and a storm jib, you can sail in winds of 25 knots with not problem. > Bert > > Bert, I agree... Since Kurt Larsen is doing some modifications anyway, I might as well have him put in another set of reef points and jiffy reefing. I also intend to add a topping lift while I'm at it. Next projects: installing the mini-contest bulkhead compass I rescued from the Alacrity. Instead of cutting a hole in the cabin I plan to build a teak enclosure under the bridge deck. I just bought a 6-switch fuse panel from West Marine and intend to re-wire everything. My sons tell me I have as much fun with the boat out of the water as I do when sailing it. Joe Kidd M-15 "Poco A Poco" ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: Randy Graves Subject: RE: M_Boats: sail slugs - tips - P.S. Date: 18 Jan 1997 21:02:15 -0700 How do you decide where to place the second set of reef points? I have = one set of reef points on my M-15 and have often wished for a second = set. Do you leave the placement up to the sail maker? Or do you = instructor the sail maker as to where to put them? Randy G. ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: Joe Kidd Subject: RE: M_Boats: sail slugs - tips - P.S. Date: 19 Jan 1997 00:37:06 -0800 At 09:02 PM 1/18/97 -0700, you wrote: >How do you decide where to place the second set of reef points? I have one set of reef points on my M-15 and have often wished for a second set. Do you leave the placement up to the sail maker? Or do you instructor the sail maker as to where to put them? > >Randy G. > > > Randy -- I haven't the foggiest idea where the second set of reef point should be located. Too many factors are beyond my knowledge. I think I'll just trust the sailmaker's experience and recommendations. Joe Kidd ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: Mont15@aol.com Subject: M_Boats: for the Montgomery news letter Date: 19 Jan 1997 14:28:45 -0500 (EST) Terry, here it is in case the other did not get there. BELOW DECK The foam mattresses were replaced with firmer foam. It them much more comfortable. Hammocks are hung port and starboard on the inside of the cabin top. I carefully pre drilled holes. I then installed small eye straps at either end. Start the threads with a 3/8 sheet metal screw. Then cut off the tips so that they won't go through the deck. Then screw in place. At the forward end of each hammock there are little pouches (made of sunbrella) with several pockets. These work well for storing sun glasses, chap stick, etc. The stove along with its butane lighter is stored in a small dish pan with a sunbrella cover under the port berth. It fits perfectly. The sunbrella cover will stop any rust. I kept a stove covered in a previous boat which I kept in the water. No corrosion ever occurred; it was stored that way for 14 years. To keep mosquitoes from getting below simply put a large piece of no see-um netting over the entire opening. A piece of shock cord port and starboard will hold it down on top. The wood over the hatch slides is a perfect anchorage. Then gently drop the bottom hatch board in. You can either leave the hatch open or closed. Open it gives you fairly good ventilation. A Nicro water trap is on the fore deck. I have a PVC cowl that inserts along with a screen. It keeps the boat well ventilated at anchor and keeps water out. While sailing, I simply remove it and snap on the flush cover. Below flash lights hang from a cord suspended between two eyes. One port and one starboard. ABOVE DECK There life lines and a stern pulpit. (Although expensive, they make the boat much more livable.) At anchor this allows me to store all of my sails on deck forward in ready bags made of sunbrella. They all have a clip on the bottom and tie shut at the opening with cord. I also store my sun shade and cockpit cover in the same way. The boom tent covers the boom from behind the mast (Twist locks face aft to close the flaps.) to the end of the boom. The edges go over the top of the life lines which keeps them off of my head. The aft end of the boom tent has its twist locks facing aft also. The flaps go up over the stern rail. For really nasty, rainy weather at anchor, I first install my lee cloths which have large pockets sew in at either end for storage. Then the cockpit cover goes over them. I haven't decided if I will make additional lee cloths to o around the stern rail. They currently are on the port and starboard sides from the forward and only stanchions to the beginning of the stern rail. The boat came with a huge sun awning with three polls that hold it horizontal. We used this on Jackson Lake, Wyoming, when it was in the 90's during the day. It kept us from totally baking. If we had no mosquitoes nights, we put the porta potti in the cockpit. This made it easier to use and freed up storage space where the porta potti usually resides. It in crowded anchorage, we put up the lee cloths and cockpit cover. There are rings on the life lines port and starboard. These house my whisker poles while sailing. Again, this saves space and prevents clutter below. When at anchor a sleeve of sunbrella with a twist lock and snaps below hold the top of the boat hook to the one and only lower shroud. A loop of line holds the bottom. I actually used a sunbrella man over board pole holder that I had. I simply put a twist lock on top. The main sheet traveler (This I added early on.) has a piece of teak mounted underneath. A sheet bag hangs at the aft side, and another bag at the forward side holds water bottles and sun tan lotion. There is a bow roller forward on which the anchor is stored while sailing. The chain and line are in an anchor bag secured by shock cord on the deck. (Make the bag yourself. It will be much better than anything you buy.) While cursing, I hang my stern anchor on the stern rail. Its line and chain reside in a bag attached their also. Most of the time it is left in the bilge. All the sunbrella projects can be sewn on a standard home sewing machine with a #18 needle and V-69 UVR polyester thread. For areas where the material is difficult to fit or where you can't figure out what to do, simply use a small stapler. Staple the material to fit the space you want, and then take it home and begin your sewing project. If you don't have a sewing machine, buy one. No matter what boat you have, you can customize it to fit your needs at a fraction of the cost that you would pay a professional. It is, of course, very satisfying; not to mention the fact that you'd probably never pay to have it done. Bert PS. I hope there are too many typos or overlooked mistakes. Feel free to edit. I trust this will be helpful. If you need any clarification, just e mail me. The pictures should augment the descriptions. I'll mail them as soon as they arrive, which hopefully is next week. ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: "Tom T. Wilkinson" <71574.2614@compuserve.com> Subject: M_Boats: M23 Date: 19 Jan 1997 22:04:43 EST Could someone give me details on the M23. What years were they made and are any less desirable than others? What are any particular drawbacks to them. Thanks Tom ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: Peter Balcziunas Subject: RE: M_Boats: sail slugs - tips - P.S. Date: 20 Jan 1997 09:44:45 -0500 (EST) Joe is correct in leaving the final decision to the sailmaker. In my experience, reef points tend to be evenly spaced, the exact distance between reefs being determined by a number of factors: the amount of "belly" designed into the main, the direction and spacing of the seams, etc. As a rule, reef point spacing determines the placement of sail slug grommets (rather than the reverse), so it is a good idea to refine your directions to the sailmaker asap. You will want sufficent clearance between your luff reefing cringle and the next higher slide grommet. Once you have the new modifications in place, pick a windy day in a safe place to practice your reefing (the best place to put in the first reef is at the dock). Remember that each reef moves the Center of Effort forward on a 3-sided mainsail, changing the relationship with the L/R of the hull and centerboard, and thus the degree of weather/lee helm. It is a good thing to know in advance how reefing will effect your ability to steer and control, especially in areas of strong currents and tides and following seas. Have fun playing with the new toys! pjb On Sun, 19 Jan 1997, Joe Kidd wrote: > At 09:02 PM 1/18/97 -0700, you wrote: > >How do you decide where to place the second set of reef points? I have one > set of reef points on my M-15 and have often wished for a second set. Do > you leave the placement up to the sail maker? Or do you instructor the sail > maker as to where to put them? > > > >Randy G. > > > > > > > Randy -- I haven't the foggiest idea where the second set of reef point > should be located. Too many factors are beyond my knowledge. I think I'll > just trust the sailmaker's experience and recommendations. Joe Kidd > ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: kbeede@hmm.com (Katherine Beede) Subject: M_Boats: Polaroid Digital Holiday Greetings - So Sorry! Date: 20 Jan 1997 19:46:43 -0500 Dear valued participant: Due to an unforeseeable technical error at Polaroid during the period of December 23 - January 2, 1996, we were not able to post your Digital Holiday Greeting Card entry. We are so sorry! We thank you for your entry and hope that you'll visit our site to participate in upcoming digital promotions! In fact, we promise to email you directly to let you know FIRST when we have a new promotion up and running. Thanks for your understanding! ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: TOMMYVAL@aol.com Subject: Re: M_Boats: M23 Date: 20 Jan 1997 20:24:36 -0500 (EST) Hi, I dont have much info on the 23, however I was over in Shadyside,Md. yesterday, Sunday the 19, Jan and we saw a M23. The fellow just bought her used from somewhere out west. I believe his name is Nick something or other and he also has a Fischer 30 which i think he's trying ti sell. Anyway, she's big for 23 foot and I'm sure quite capable. We had a Montgomery raft up last Sept.and Nick was on the list to come, but we got the dates messed up. I'm hopefull he and a lot others will be able to attend this summers get together on the Chesapeake Bay. I have a 17 and I'm very happy with her. Built in 1993, next to last one Jerry built and you cant go wrong if u can find one. Anyway good luck, maybe we'll see you on the Bay Regards, Tommy ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: TOMMYVAL@aol.com Subject: M_Boats: Hi from new guy on list Date: 20 Jan 1997 21:53:35 -0500 (EST) Hello to all fellow Montgomery owners. I live in Northern Virginia and I have a 1993 M17. I believe hull number 505, she was the next to last one Jerry built. He delivered her to Spring Cove marina which is on the Paxtuxent River (on the Chesapeake Bay) in southern Maryland. He also delivered hull number 506 (the last M17 built) to my buddy Greg. He also keeps the boat in Southern Maryland. We had a Montgomery get together in Sept. 1996 and had folks from South Carolina, New York and of course Virginia and Maryland. Had a great time and it's always nice to see other Montgomery's on the water. Hopefully we will have a report in an upcoming MON (John can you confirm this?) Yesterday (Sunday the 19, Jan) Greg and I went over to the Eastern shore of Maryland to look at some possible crusing destinations for our summer 1997 raft up. Of course your all invited. I will prepare something to put in the spring MON once our plans materialize. We went to St. Michaels and Oxford, both very nice small towns unfortunately not much in way of services we might need. Limited lauching and not much to do. We are now considering putting in at Point Lookout Marina at the mouth of the Potomac and sailing up river. Lots of historical things to see and do. I believe there are some good facilities on the way up the river. We will check it out in a couple of weeks and I'll let you know. Hopefully we can make a week long trip out of it. I have read a lot of opinions on the new builder and I must say Im very disappointed in hearing of the problems Chuck is having. I had a chance to get to know Chuck this past year and it doesn't sound like him at all. I met Chuck at the Washington DC boat show last year and let him use my boat for the spring Annapolis show. I certainly had a favorable opinion of him. I haven't spoken with him for a while and was unaware of his problems. I also got to know Fran and Pat and they are good people so this really surprises me. Hopefully he can get it together, it would sure be nice to keep the Montgomery line alive. I know from reading the updates that many delivery dates have been missed. Do you think he's running a bit behind or is he in real trouble? I look forward to keeping in touch with everyone and if anyone has updated info on AL&D pls pass it on, lets hope it favorable. Take care Tommy ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: schwarze@VAX2.WINONA.MSUS.EDU (Terry Schwarze) Subject: Re: M_Boats: Hi from new guy on list Date: 21 Jan 1997 09:55:48 -0600 (CST) tommy, caught this on the site, would like to run this piece in the MON. Not many people have had good things to say about chuck and he isn't responding. another point of view would seem appropriate. if its ok let me know along with your new boat's name if it has one. thanks, terry. also, will look forward to an article from you. ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: TOMMYVAL@aol.com Subject: Re: M_Boats: Hi from new guy on list Date: 21 Jan 1997 21:36:16 -0500 (EST) Sure its ok to run it. Im hoping AL&D can continue the line. I think if he can remedy the situation he will build a nice quality M-17 and M-15 with some improvements in certain areas. I really havent named the boat yet. thought about two or three but not just sure yet. John Edwards came up from South Carolina for the raft up and he said he'd be writing an article. I will send him e-mail to verifty and if not I will put one together for you. Thanks for keeping the MON going I certainly look forward to receiving every few months. Once we finalize the east coast summer plans I'll let you know and maybe we can also put that in the MON. If anyone talks to Jerry pass along my regards. Talk to you soon Bye, Gary Valetti AKA TommyVal ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: TOM_JANSTROM@HP-Boise-om2.om.hp.com Subject: Re: M_Boats: M23 Date: 21 Jan 1997 20:29:34 -0700 Hello, Tommy, this is Tom. That was my-ex M23 you saw with Nick Homodel. Hull #002. Dandy boat in just about every regard. Got the urge to build; plans now in hand. Fair winds, TJanstrom ______________________________ Reply Separator _________________________________ Author: Non-HP-owner-montgomery-boats (owner-montgomery_boats@xmission.com) at hp-boise,shargw5 Hi, I dont have much info on the 23, however I was over in Shadyside,Md. yesterday, Sunday the 19, Jan and we saw a M23. The fellow just bought her used from somewhere out west. I believe his name is Nick something or other and he also has a Fischer 30 which i think he's trying ti sell. Anyway, she's big for 23 foot and I'm sure quite capable. We had a Montgomery raft up last Sept.and Nick was on the list to come, but we got the dates messed up. I'm hopefull he and a lot others will be able to attend this summers get together on the Chesapeake Bay. I have a 17 and I'm very happy with her. Built in 1993, next to last one Jerry built and you cant go wrong if u can find one. Anyway good luck, maybe we'll see you on the Bay Regards, Tommy ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: "Larry Barkhuff/Nv." <102562.2650@CompuServe.COM> Subject: M_Boats: Tom's 23 Date: 22 Jan 1997 19:56:54 EST For Mr. Wilkerson....Not all of the 23's made were the flush decks like the one that you saw belonging to Nick....Most had a cabin top like a 17 on longer.....Larry ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: jim kimmet <76760.1744@CompuServe.COM> Subject: M_Boats: Sailing San Diego Date: 22 Jan 1997 23:16:23 EST To Montgomery owners in the San Diego area--I have the good fortune to use business as a pretext to escape a fairly brutal Minnesota winter for a few days in February and I'm wondering if there is someone in the San Diego area that could offer me and a coworker an afternoon of sailing amidst balmy breezes? We will be in the area on February 8 and 9 and I would love to do some sailing. I have quite a bit of sailing experience and am a M17 owner so I can assist with the sailing. I can be emailed at 76760.1744@compuserv.com. Jim Kimmet ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: Randolph I Palmer Subject: M_Boats: Tom's 23 Date: 23 Jan 1997 7:22:39 CST I didn't know that Tom'/Nick's M23 had a flush deck. Does it have any bump up at the companionway? Tom: have a photo you could fax me? (715-836-6044) Jerry sure liked to customize his boats. Randy P. ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: Harvey Wilson <102072.2315@CompuServe.COM> Subject: M_Boats: M-23 flush deck Date: 24 Jan 1997 22:12:26 EST Randy.. There was a M-23 advertised in the summer issue of the newsletter that was said to have the small cabin if the M-17...built for racing purposes. Owner is in Arizona (methinks) and it's berthed in Mexico. Harvey/Atl M-17 Stargazer #294 ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: TOMMYVAL@aol.com Subject: Re: M_Boats: M-23 flush deck Date: 25 Jan 1997 10:40:42 -0500 (EST) I saw an M-23 in Shadyside, Md. last weekend and someone thought it was a flush deck but it was not. It had quite a large boxy cabin top. Looked like a nice boat though. Also someone asked about any M-17's in the Annapolis area. I have one in Southern, Md and my buddy Greg also has one. These were the last two built by Jerry. Contact me and give me your friends name/phone and Ill give him a call. Any additional word on AL&D. havent heard anything in some time. Good Sailing Tommy ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: "Larry Barkhuff/Nv." <102562.2650@CompuServe.COM> Subject: M_Boats: Flush Deck 23's Date: 25 Jan 1997 17:45:25 EST re the 23 in Arizona spoken of by Harvey, if it is the correct boat is it black and white, and called the skunk boat. Owned by Capt Dave Davansati at the Ships Store in Tucson. Carbon fibre mast, no stays and made as a go fast racer. He bought it from Tom Van Atta who used to own the SS. Was the boat seen in Md mentioned also Nicks boat or did some on e spot another of our lost 23's? Larry ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: TKozlik@aol.com Subject: M_Boats: M-23 Stuff Date: 26 Jan 1997 11:40:01 -0500 (EST) An acquaintance has an M-23 for sale. He tells me that it has a light blue hull with off white topsides. It has 7 opening ports on the cabin - 3 on each side and one on the front. It has the factory finished interior. It includes an outboard and 3-4 sails. It has some electronics. He is asking $18,000. Call Rich Nichols at (602) 238-8867 for more details. I met Rich a few weeks ago when I purchased a used cruising spinnaker (actually a gennaker) from him. I have an M-23 (not for sale). The sail is off a Chrysler 22. It is a little small for the M-23, but it is sure a nice sail for light winds. You can think of it as a nylon genny that is not hanked on to the fore stay. Very easy to set. I didn't have to add any hardware to the boat to use the sail. There is money to be made by buying sailboats in southern California, taking them to Arizona, cleaning them up and selling them. Rich may take off some sails and sell them separately. He always has 3 or 4 deals in the works. Since sailing is a winter sport here in Phoenix, I took the boat out a couple of weeks ago and will go out again next weekend. I broke the gooseneck fitting last time out while raising the mast. With an M-23 you use the boom as a gin pole and the mainsheet and winch to raise the mast. I never did like this system as it puts a lot of pressure on the gooseneck fitting. It was optimized for sailing, not raising the mast. Now I've got a new system. I built a longer gin pole with an old whisker pole, lowered that attachment point on the mast and rigged a new block and tackle to the transom. This is much more efficient. I can use a 2:1 tackle instead of a 4:1. That's all for now, Tony Kozlik ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: Harvey Wilson <102072.2315@CompuServe.COM> Subject: M_Boats: M-23 Date: 26 Jan 1997 23:02:17 EST Hi larry.. That was Cap't. Dave's boat that I mentioned. He also mentioned that Chuck (?) of A L & D had some serious problems with building the new Montgomeries. Harvey/Atl M-17 Stargazer #294 ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: Harvey Wilson <102072.2315@CompuServe.COM> Subject: M_Boats: Teak finish Date: 26 Jan 1997 23:02:13 EST Time to tap the opinion poll again. Been nice and warm this weekend, and I have decided to finish the sadly neglected teak on Stargazer. After long years in the Florida sun, it is gray and the softer grain has worn down..sorta like furrows . I have removed the 2 handrails from the cabin for starters. The tiller is nicely varnished, and the interior teak is oiled. I'd venture to say that it would be easiest to just sand it down and apply a few coats of teak oil, but I'd like to know how the original finish was done. Also, any good ways to seal the windows...and where would I get new ones ?? I've toyed with the idea of replacing them with the brass opening portals that West Marine has in their catalog. Harvey/Atl M-17 Stargazer #294 ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: stephen gray Subject: M_Boats: Montgomery Dingy "For Sale" Date: 26 Jan 1997 19:26:41 +0000 Greetings from Las Vegas ! I'm new to the Internet/E-mail world, but a long time fan of Montgomery Boats. Since I've seen recent mail on boats for sale I'd thought I would throw mine out there, if anyone is interested contact me at the address above or phone (702) 458-8413 (H) 56 5-2333 (W) 1990 Montgomery 7'-11" Sailing Dingy Bought new from Ship's Store in Tucson in late 1994. The boat has only been sailed twice. I always thought I was a good sailor...then I bought a dingy. Rudder, tiller and centerboard (wood w/bronze fittings) were bought new in '95. The Sailing rig is also new, but came from a "Fatty Knees" 9' Sailing Dingy and is larger than the stock Montgomery...Great for light air! The sail logo is a red heart (Fatty Knees logo) so everyone thinks the dink is the much more expensive cousin to the Montgomery as both were Lyle Hess designs. Complete with 7' oars and bronze oarlocks. The boat is "As New". Lots of teak, and very attractive. Trailer is available, but car tops very well. Price is open to an offer...as I can use the space in the garage. Contact me if interested. Thanks! Also have a 1986 Montgomery 15 and I have entertained the idea of trading-up to a M-17 as the the family is growing larger...if you have a 17 and have thought about moving down let me know. Thanks Again...It's time to go sailing ! ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: TOM_JANSTROM@HP-Boise-om2.om.hp.com Subject: Re: M_Boats: M-23 Stuff Date: 27 Jan 1997 10:28:56 -0700 Item Subject: M_Boats: M-23 Stuff Wow. $18K sounds high to me; maybe the boat is bristol. I shared your anxiety about the gooseneck fitting but continued to use the system as designed. The mast did go up and down under good control and there never was any sign of cracking or separation between the gooseneck reinforcement plate and the mast. Maybe a forward gin pole, ala the Hunter 26, would work as well. TJ ______________________________ Reply Separator _________________________________ Author: Non-HP-owner-montgomery-boats (owner-montgomery_boats@xmission.com) at hp-boise,shargw5 An acquaintance has an M-23 for sale. He tells me that it has a light blue hull with off white topsides. It has 7 opening ports on the cabin - 3 on each side and one on the front. It has the factory finished interior. It includes an outboard and 3-4 sails. It has some electronics. He is asking $18,000. Call Rich Nichols at (602) 238-8867 for more details. I met Rich a few weeks ago when I purchased a used cruising spinnaker (actually a gennaker) from him. I have an M-23 (not for sale). The sail is off a Chrysler 22. It is a little small for the M-23, but it is sure a nice sail for light winds. You can think of it as a nylon genny that is not hanked on to the fore stay. Very easy to set. I didn't have to add any hardware to the boat to use the sail. There is money to be made by buying sailboats in southern California, taking them to Arizona, cleaning them up and selling them. Rich may take off some sails and sell them separately. He always has 3 or 4 deals in the works. Since sailing is a winter sport here in Phoenix, I took the boat out a couple of weeks ago and will go out again next weekend. I broke the gooseneck fitting last time out while raising the mast. With an M-23 you use the boom as a gin pole and the mainsheet and winch to raise the mast. I never did like this system as it puts a lot of pressure on the gooseneck fitting. It was optimized for sailing, not raising the mast. Now I've got a new system. I built a longer gin pole with an old whisker pole, lowered that attachment point on the mast and rigged a new block and tackle to the transom. This is much more efficient. I can use a 2:1 tackle instead of a 4:1. That's all for now, Tony Kozlik ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: TOM_JANSTROM@HP-Boise-om2.om.hp.com Subject: Re: M_Boats: Tom's 23 Date: 27 Jan 1997 10:30:40 -0700 Item Subject: M_Boats: Tom's 23 One last time, guys. M23 hull #002, ex-El Pato, ex-Villand, now owned by Nick Homodel of MD, is a trunk cabin boat. TJ ______________________________ Reply Separator _________________________________ Author: Non-HP-owner-montgomery-boats (owner-montgomery_boats@xmission.com) at hp-boise,shargw5 For Mr. Wilkerson....Not all of the 23's made were the flush decks like the one that you saw belonging to Nick....Most had a cabin top like a 17 on longer.....Larry ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: Wilsometer@aol.com Subject: Re: M_Boats: Teak finish Date: 27 Jan 1997 15:50:16 -0500 >Time to tap the opinion poll again. >Been nice and warm this weekend, and I have decided to finish >the sadly >neglected teak on Stargazer. Harvey: I will weigh in with my opinion. I have been doing teak on boats for about twenty years, and have tried a myriad of products with varying results. You must, however, decide on what type of finish you are after (gloss, matte, color, no color) before looking for the appropriate product. Varnish is great if you are massochistic in nature, or just love sanding and fumes. I do not. For years, I stuck with traditional teak oils. I tried every brand I could get my hands on. I noted few differences, but settled on "Seafin" for reasons I can't now remember. They looked great initially, but after 8 to 10 weeks in the California sun, bare, dry spots would start to appear. As long as I (or the client) was willing to re-coat every 2 months, I could avoid, or postpone stripping between applications. With a Montgomery this would not be a problem, but on a 40 footer, this became a bit tedious, so I tried some of the synthetic teak treatments. I settled on "Teak Wonder", a silicone base, I believe. This was an improvement over the conventional oil, allowing up to six months between coats. I would strip and bleach the wood every other year using "Teak Wonder's" cleaner and brightener (2 parts). I still use this system on a boat I maintain for a friend. The finish is matte, but it does have a little bit of a gold/orange color to it. My most recent discovery is a product called "Cetol Marine" made by Sikkens. It is much more like varnish in appearance (even the so called matte), and also has a bit of an orange tint. This product has demonstrated incredible longevity in tests by Practical Sailor, and by friends that have used it both here in California, and up in Seattle. Real world experience seems to suggest that a year or so can go by with no appreciable deerioration in appearance. It is very important to get all old finishes completely out of the grain before switching to Cetol, and you need to have three or more days of good, dry weather as it requires three coats initially. Mere sanding is not enough to get old oils out of the wood. I use and reccomend the "Teak Wonder" cleaner and brightener, followed by 24 hours of dry time, and then a light sanding. Other brands of cleaners/brighteners I have used stained the gel coat. In any event, don't let the brightener sit on the gel coat any longer than you have to, and wet it first if you can. I generally prefer a matte finish to gloss, but given what I have seen of the Cetol, I have switched to it. The initial work to prepare and apply is somewhat greater than that of other products, but time and energy will be saved down the road. This is not gospel, just my observations. I am eager to hear corroborating or dissenting opinions! Scott Grometer, M15 #478 ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: Peter Balcziunas Subject: Re: M_Boats: Teak finish Date: 27 Jan 1997 17:44:49 -0500 (EST) I have used Z-spar's Captain's 1015 varnish for several years and recommend it highly to anyone who likes traditional varnish. Captain's seems less vulnerable to cracks and bumps (less brittle?), builds quickly (3-5 coats provide a deep glass), and repairs via touch-up easier and less noticeably than others I have tried. On the other hand, one is limited to one coat per day, with light sanding (I use 180 or 220 grit) between coats, and real hardening continues for a couple of weeks. On sale, Captain's is a pretty good bargain. On the other hand, I have become intrigued by the water-based products now being touted. I think I'll give one of them a test, just on the chance that their virutes match their reputed safety and ecological sensitivity. I, too, was impressed by Practical Sailor's review of Cetol and intend to try some this spring. I have some freshly wooded seats from an ancient O'Day Widgeon and thought they would make a good laboratory. This boat sits out uncovered most of the summer and gets plenty of kicks and bumps from those who borrow her. A deep penetrating oil that has "build" sounds pretty good (maybe a version of Danish oil or DEKS OJE or Homer Formby's Tung Oil??). I'll report on the experiment if anyone should be interested. Peter B. On Mon, 27 Jan 1997 Wilsometer@aol.com wrote: > >Time to tap the opinion poll again. > > >Been nice and warm this weekend, and I have decided to finish >the sadly > >neglected teak on Stargazer. > > Harvey: > I will weigh in with my opinion. I have been doing teak on boats for about > twenty years, and have tried a myriad of products with varying results. You > must, however, decide on what type of finish you are after (gloss, matte, > color, no color) before looking for the appropriate product. > > Varnish is great if you are massochistic in nature, or just love sanding and > fumes. I do not. > > For years, I stuck with traditional teak oils. I tried every brand I could > get my hands on. I noted few differences, but settled on "Seafin" for > reasons I can't now remember. They looked great initially, but after 8 to 10 > weeks in the California sun, bare, dry spots would start to appear. As long > as I (or the client) was willing to re-coat every 2 months, I could avoid, or > postpone stripping between applications. With a Montgomery this would not be > a problem, but on a 40 footer, this became a bit tedious, so I tried some of > the synthetic teak treatments. I settled on "Teak Wonder", a silicone base, > I believe. This was an improvement over the conventional oil, allowing up to > six months between coats. I would strip and bleach the wood every other year > using "Teak Wonder's" cleaner and brightener (2 parts). I still use this > system on a boat I maintain for a friend. The finish is matte, but it does > have a little bit of a gold/orange color to it. > > My most recent discovery is a product called "Cetol Marine" made by Sikkens. > It is much more like varnish in appearance (even the so called matte), and > also has a bit of an orange tint. This product has demonstrated incredible > longevity in tests by Practical Sailor, and by friends that have used it both > here in California, and up in Seattle. Real world experience seems to > suggest that a year or so can go by with no appreciable deerioration in > appearance. It is very important to get all old finishes completely out of > the grain before switching to Cetol, and you need to have three or more days > of good, dry weather as it requires three coats initially. Mere sanding is > not enough to get old oils out of the wood. I use and reccomend the "Teak > Wonder" cleaner and brightener, followed by 24 hours of dry time, and then a > light sanding. Other brands of cleaners/brighteners I have used stained the > gel coat. In any event, don't let the brightener sit on the gel coat any > longer than you have to, and wet it first if you can. > > I generally prefer a matte finish to gloss, but given what I have seen of the > Cetol, I have switched to it. The initial work to prepare and apply is > somewhat greater than that of other products, but time and energy will be > saved down the road. > > This is not gospel, just my observations. I am eager to hear corroborating > or dissenting opinions! > Scott Grometer, M15 #478 > > ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: Wilsometer@aol.com Subject: M_Boats: Tiller finishes Date: 28 Jan 1997 01:48:40 -0500 (EST) >...the tiller seems to be finished with varnish. Harvey (or anyone else!): You reminded me of a question that I have regarding the factory finish of the tiller/rudder. Is it varnish or polyurethane? Are the two compatible? My tiller (and the boat) are essentially new, but the tiller got a bit scratched up hauling it from Colorado to California (I am convinced that the spring rates of the stock Trail-rite trailer are too stiff for the weight of the boat!!). I would love to re-coat without having to strip or sand to bare wood. Happy Brushing! Scott Grometer, M15 #478 P.S.: I found that masking around the toe/hand rails and companionway opening with 3M "blue" masking tape made the job alot easier!! The blue tape comes off much more easily, even after a week! ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: haynes_pj@Mercer.EDU Subject: M_Boats: M-15 for sale Date: 28 Jan 1997 10:00:29 -0400 (EDT) Hello. I'm Phil and I'm new to this mail list. I live in Juliette, Georgia, home of the "Fried Green Tomatoes" obsessives. I have a Montgomery 15, Hull # 310, that I bought in February 1985. I would like to sell it for $4500. Included in the sale is a 2hp Johnson engine, purchased that same year, a Trail-Rite Boat Trailer, purchased with the boat, a Thetford Porta-Potti, and your basic sailing accessories. What do you think? Are there any other avenues for marketing sail boats that you would recommend? Thanks. Philip J. Haynes, part time Faculty Mercer University, Stetson School of Business Office, off campus, at: Haynes Marketing Network, Inc. 90 ML King, Jr. Blvd PO Box 4006 Macon, GA 31208-4006 912-742-5266 phone 912-742-5334 fax 912-986-3972 home (Juliette) haynes_pj@Mercer.edu ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: TOM_JANSTROM@HP-Boise-om2.om.hp.com Subject: Re: M_Boats: Tiller finishes Date: 28 Jan 1997 08:43:05 -0700 Item Subject: M_Boats: Tiller finishes Scott: 1) The finish is varnish. 2) No, they are not compatible. Varnish does take very nicely over a layer or nine of sanded epoxy. Bombproof! I finished much of the teak on Villand that way. Yours for theraputic varnishing, TJ ______________________________ Reply Separator _________________________________ Author: Non-HP-owner-montgomery-boats (owner-montgomery_boats@xmission.com) at hp-boise,shargw5 >...the tiller seems to be finished with varnish. Harvey (or anyone else!): You reminded me of a question that I have regarding the factory finish of the tiller/rudder. Is it varnish or polyurethane? Are the two compatible? My tiller (and the boat) are essentially new, but the tiller got a bit scratched up hauling it from Colorado to California (I am convinced that the spring rates of the stock Trail-rite trailer are too stiff for the weight of the boat!!). I would love to re-coat without having to strip or sand to bare wood. Happy Brushing! Scott Grometer, M15 #478 P.S.: I found that masking around the toe/hand rails and companionway opening with 3M "blue" masking tape made the job alot easier!! The blue tape comes off much more easily, even after a week! ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: "Jim Daly" Subject: M_Boats: new member - looking for M17 Date: 28 Jan 1997 14:50:30 -0700 I joined the group a couple of weeks ago and have been lurking ever since. After all I have read and heard, I am in the market for a Montgomery 17. It appears to be the perfect boat for what I envision my sailing needs are. I am a relative newcomer to sailing - I owned and sailed an O'Day daysailer for awhile but sold it to provide part of the capital I needed to build my own cabin in the mountains - it looks out at the Sangre de Cristo mountains in Custer County, Colorado. It is now time to expand my toy horizons - golf is also addictive (8 handicap). I am in Colorado but can drive a fair distance to get the right boat at the right price. Please let me know if you hear of one. Thanks for the help and allowing one to participate in such a great group. JED ps. I also joined the Montgomery Owners Association eventhough I am not yet a real owner. James E. Daly Department of Mathematics University of Colorado Colorado Springs, CO 80933-7150 ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: TOMMYVAL@aol.com Subject: Re: M_Boats: new member - looking for M17 Date: 28 Jan 1997 20:01:14 -0500 (EST) Hi, Just to let you know you cant go wrong with the M-17. Great boat for just about any situation, save ocean crossings and at least one 15 did sail to Hawaii. I sail a 93 M-17 on the chesapeake bay. great sailing on a great boat. Also very fast, we surprise many larger boats on a regular basis. If I hear of any for sale Ill pass it on. If you can get Soundings you may have some luck there. Hope you get on the water soon. Take Care Tommy ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: Randolph I Palmer Subject: M_Boats: bowers sails Date: 29 Jan 1997 7:52:33 CST Hi Seth, How's winter going. I posted my response to our M_Boat list as others might want to join in. Hope you don't mind. My storm jib is probably not a "true storm jib" as you mentioned but it is pretty darn small. Talking with a couple of sailmakers they said if I went with a 'true storm jib' I wouldn't have any pointing ability. Bowers made it out of heavy material and the clew is set high. I can't recall how many square feet it is (and don't have my notes at work, apparently) - maybe 20 sf.? I can look it up for you. I have been pleased with Bowers but apparently Gordy Bowers isn't as he left the company recently to go to Inland Sails. I talked to Hoopers Yachts about it and they said there shouldn't be much difference as they have all the computer design and cutting technology well worked out. I'm likely to keep sending them my business. My working jib came with a reef point and a downhaul for reefing it from the cockpit. I've used it and it works quite well - just loosen the halyard with your right hand and pull the reef in with your left hand - then haul back on the halyard - that quick (faster than a roller furler). You do have to raise the sheets to the higher clew but you can do one side at a time on different tacks while standing in the companionway. You could do one side before reefing (ie: raise the starboard sheet on a port tack) if you have time, then tack, reef and raise the other sheet, then tack back if you like. I added a small line to the reefing clew (usually hangs in a loop) so I can roll the loose foot of the sail up and tie it to the reef clew. It ain't real perty but it works. I'm sure sailing among the mountains along the AK coast you can hit some fast changing conditions. When we launched "Oui-1" on Jackson Lake in Wyoming, the gusts coming off the Teton Range were incredible - 45 degree wind changes in a second or two. But we survived to tell about it and really learned to trust the M15 very quickly - what a boat. (We like her so much she got a brand new garage this winter to sleep in). It's starting to be snowshoe weather here - and it keeps on coming ******************************** Randy P. ****** FORWARDED MESSAGE ****** Date: Jan 28, 1997 6:32 PM Message ID: 32ee9a7a7188 From: sethm@adfg.state.ak.us/SMTP To: Randolph I Palmer Copies: Attach: Subject: bowers sails Randy, I recently received a quote from John Dennis at Bowers Sails after following up on a lead you provided some time ago. The quote was $119 for a storm jib and $215 for a cruising spinnaker (98 sq. ft). My question is how pleased have you been with each of these sails from Bowers? How big/small is the storm jib (is it a true storm jib or more of a "heavy weather jib")? On a different note, did you ever add reef points to your working jib? I've gotten conflicting opinions from some of the sailmakers I've talked to so far. The negative side is what has puzzled me all along with this option: what do you do with the slack foot of the sail, you still have to go forward to retie the sheets (which now have the "wrong" lead angle) and the reef ties, which all goes against what I was trying to accomplish which is safely, easily, yet effectively reduce the foresail without dousing it completely when the wind suddenly doubles or triples in strength on short notice. Any thoughts? I've got to get a message together to the list about the Alaska dreamin' questions that I see were posted while I was away. Regards, Seth Macinko ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: Mont15@aol.com Subject: M_Boats: genoa Date: 29 Jan 1997 23:38:55 -0500 (EST) Rich, I have the original genoa that came with the boat. When I got the boat, the sail had hardly been used. I've only used it once so far. I was in the Oakland Estuary. I had my main up and the genoa. A gust came unexpectedly, and I took green water over the coaming. The boat immediately righted either from the ankle deep water and/or my jumping to the weather side. I had unfortunately and stupidly been sitting on the low side to get a little extra speed in the light wind. I can measure it when I get a chance. I don't know if it is worth your buying one. Bert ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: Wilsometer@aol.com Subject: Fwd: Re: M_Boats: Tiller finishes Date: 30 Jan 1997 02:46:03 -0500 (EST) --------------------- Forwarded message: Subj: Re: M_Boats: Tiller finishes Harvey: Thanks for the reply. Methinks the same hitherto (tiller dressing, that is). I am not impressed with the durability of the finish. You might want to check into the U.V. characteristics of poly. I've seen some yellow over time. It may still be preferable on the rudder, however. I guess a little trial and error may be in order. If you like the look of the tiller, then you would probably like the Cetol finish. Hey, what's the worst that could happen. Buy futures in abrasives. Scott Grometer ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: Catherine Jorgensen Subject: M_Boats: trailering Date: 30 Jan 1997 21:43:33 -0800 doug, I pulled my M17 with a '76' VW bus for 5 years and sold the bus 2 years later with 150k on it. I wasn't very fast but it didn't kill off the vehicle either. If the vehicle is of moderate weight and power I don't think you'll have a problem. I wasn't putting big miles on but a few 1000 miler round trips were included. Steve ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: sethm@adfg.state.ak.us (Seth Macinko) Subject: M_Boats: Re: Alaska Dreamin', delayed reply Date: 31 Jan 1997 00:42:41 -0700 (MST) Hello all, Thos of you following this (now old) thread will recall that we were going along dreamily until John A had the temerity to (correctly) observe that here in Alaska there are big tides and substantial currents and might not that pose a problem for those of us endowed with the hull speed of the mighty M-15 (M-17s welcome here too)? Well, I didn't really have a convincing answer to John's question so I went out of town on business. I'm back but still don't have a real answer. I spent last summer with my family learning the M-15 and sailing pretty close to home (Juneau) and tides and currents were the least of my problems. I suppose my immediate reaction would be the stop-and-smell the-roses response--there's lots to do while you wait for the tide to change/slacken (there's two ways to go round every island too). Seriously, the question obviously bears more thought. One other partially flip response for now: Before I discovered Montgomerys, I made some long-distance inquiries about Potters. At the time nearest one was in Ketchikan and I called up the owner. He is the second owner having bought the boat (a P-15) from the original owner who sailed the boat up the inside passage from Seattle. So you wonder about sailing a Montgomery in Southeast Alaska? Enough said? As for dates for the great Alaska sail-in, I suppose summer 1998 makes the most sense. However, I'm here all the time and if some of you get the urge in '97 I'd be more than happy to help arrange as much or as little as you'd like. Regards to all, Seth ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: rc2222@pacbell.net Subject: M_Boats: Slugs Date: 31 Jan 1997 14:01:44 -0800 Bert: Brought my main sail into Hogin Sails yesterday to have another set of reef points and sail SLUGS installed. Cost: $ 6./slug including material with total of 10 slugs. $ 65 for reef points. I'm a little uncertain as to how the slugs are going to work out but I figured that if I don't like them I'll sprinkle Cory's powder on the sail and they should be gone by morning. Rich M15#288 Really