From: Oinker <70754.1676@compuserve.com> Subject: M_Boats: Re: M15 - M17 trailering Date: 02 Feb 1997 19:28:22 -0500 Thanks for all the information on trailer and towing vehicle combinations. Even though I love the sailing I guess I have less patience for being slow on the road. My previous trailerable crusing boat was an AMF 2100 (21.5 ft) weighing 2200 lbs. The trailer was a good 500 lbs and when I loaded up the boat for a trip it probably tipped the scales at 3200 + lbs. I was towing this with 1976 Buick, 350 cubic inch V8 and was disapointed that I couldn't maintain 60 mph going over the Berkshire mountains in MA. In current ageing fleet of towing vehicles the highest rated is 1500 lbs for the 92 Celica with 80k mi and a standard transmission. The next candidate is a 90 Buick Century with 40k mi and an automatic transmission with a rating of 1000 lbs for a trailerable weight. I think I'll go with the M15!! Now al I have to do is find one to buy for a reasonable price. Thanks for the help Doug ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: Harvey Wilson <102072.2315@CompuServe.COM> Subject: M_Boats: Montgomery 15 Date: 02 Feb 1997 21:54:56 EST To all Seekers of a Montgomery 15, especially in the Southeast, here is another available at a reasonable price, altho probably not as good as Cap't. Kidd's boat I have seen B&W pictures of this boat, which probably did not do it justice, and it looks very good. ---------- Forwarded Message ---------- TO: Harvey Wilson, 102072,2315 DATE: 2/1/97 10:02 AM RE: Montgomery 15 No, not yet. To be honest, I pulled it off the market and got the trailer fixed. I was going to keep it, but have since decided to sell again (reluctantly). My kids are just to young to really enjoy it (they don't like the heeling). So yes the boat is available, asking $3400.00. The boat is in Gulf Breeze, FL. Particulars: 1985 M15, Royal Blue hull, white sheer Main, Jib (tanbark), genoa, spinnaker cockpit, cabin cushions anchor, chain and 3-strand rode 1995 Magic Tilt trailer How is the M17 working out? Hope you are enjoying it. I'll probably replace the Monty with a sailing/rowing/fishing dinghy, 12 feet or so in length. In fact, one boat I'm looking at resembles a scaled down Montgomery, lapstrakes and all. Scott Taylor ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: schwarze@VAX2.WINONA.MSUS.EDU (Terry Schwarze) Subject: Re: M_Boats: Re: M15 - M17 trailering Date: 03 Feb 1997 09:44:54 -0600 (CST) Doug, quick note there will be a number of M's for sale in the MON. good luck. terry ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: Randolph I Palmer Subject: M_Boats: Bowers Sails Date: 03 Feb 1997 11:11:31 CST Hi all, I dropped my M15's mainsail off at Hooper's Yachts (Minnesota) and told them to send them on to Bowers for second reef point and slugs per our discussions. Hoopers said they could no longer recommend Bowers and that they were dealing with Sequel Sails. Three of the main sailmakers at Bowers left to start a new company - the sequel to Bowers. Their phone number is 612-975-1980 and fax is 934-7954. Gordy Bowers is working for Inland Sails of Wisconsin. I don't have their number. I recommended Bowers to you. Now I need to withdraw that recommendation because I don't know what's going on there. I've subscribed at my home address and will be unsubscribing at work in order to cut some of my e-mail load here - so I'm still around. (what's all that "ahhh," "oh darn" noise I hear out there???? ). I may be just a little slower on the response unless you e-mail me directly. Randy P. ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: becker-r@postoffice.worldnet.att.net (Robert Becker) Subject: M_Boats: boat insurance Date: 04 Feb 1997 18:20:27 +0000 Hi, I was shopping at West Marine and saw a flyer for boaters insurance, which I decided to check out. The following is their quote (West Marine Insurance 1-800-937-8895) for my 1982 M15, 3.5hp Nissan ob, kept on a trailer at my home in Castro Valley, CA. Never cancelled and never filed a claim. West Marine would insure the boat and motor for $3500, trailer for $700, $500 deductable, agreed value coverage (they pay full insured value without depreciation for total loss), coastal to 15 miles offshore. Coverage is $100k liability, 10k medical, uninsured boater to policy limits, and personal effects to $750 with $50 deductable. Cost: $150. I currently have a policy thru Farmers with Mid-Century for boat and motor at $3500, trailer at 800. Coverage is: Comprehensive, 100 ded to limit of liability; Collision, 1k each accident; liability, 300k each accident; medical,1k each person, 2k each accident. For this I pay $122 annually ($143.19 premium with good guy discount of 21.48). My State Farm auto ins also covers the boat while towing, but my home owners does not cover the boat except on the premises (some homeowners policys have better coverage, but thats another story) Obviously, the West Marine insurance is not as good as what is currently out there. I am interested in what coverage others have found, especially if it is cheaper, as well as horror stories regarding insured boats. Bob ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: rc2222@pacbell.net Subject: M_Boats: insurance Date: 04 Feb 1997 15:02:05 -0800 Bob: I also am researching boaters insurance. It's my understanding West Marine's minimum premium on any coverage is $ 150.- you can probably get $ 250. deductable plus $ 500 tow coverage on the water included for the same premium. $ 300,000 liability would be increase premium to $ 200. I have a 1984 M15 with trailer and 1992 2 hp honda 4 stroke. My Allstate agent quoted a $ 166 premium for the following: $ 3,000 boat, $ 200 motor, $ 700 trailer, $ 250.deductable. $ 300k liability, 2k medical per accident. Anyone out there wish to share their policy coverage with us? Are there possible discounts if several M owners bought as a group? Rich ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: TOM_JANSTROM@HP-Boise-om2.om.hp.com Subject: Re: M_Boats: insurance Date: 04 Feb 1997 16:33:23 -0700 Rich, I insured my M23 as a rider on my homeowner's policy. The carrier was Oregon Mutual. I recall having the package of boat, motor, and trailer insured for $15K. Deductible was $250. Liability coverage was as for the household: $1M, if memory serves. No restrictions were imposed as to navigable waters or towable roads. Additional cost was on the order of $140/year. You might want to investigate this approach. TJ ex-M23 #002; Villand ______________________________ Reply Separator _________________________________ Author: Non-HP-owner-montgomery-boats (owner-montgomery_boats@xmission.com) at HP-Boise,mimegw5 Bob: I also am researching boaters insurance. It's my understanding West Marine's minimum premium on any coverage is $ 150.- you can probably get $ 250. deductable plus $ 500 tow coverage on the water included for the same premium. $ 300,000 liability would be increase premium to $ 200. I have a 1984 M15 with trailer and 1992 2 hp honda 4 stroke. My Allstate agent quoted a $ 166 premium for the following: $ 3,000 boat, $ 200 motor, $ 700 trailer, $ 250.deductable. $ 300k liability, 2k medical per accident. Anyone out there wish to share their policy coverage with us? Are there possible discounts if several M owners bought as a group? Rich ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: Randolph I Palmer Subject: Re: M_Boats: insurance Date: 04 Feb 1997 18:32:01 -0600 (CST) Rich, I too have my boat insurance with my homeowner's and car insurance carrier. That way the liability applies to the vehicle while it is on the road and homeowner's partially covers liability while on the water. In the midwest and a few other areas you can get American Family Insurance. When I bought my M23 I compared the premium and policy to Boat US. They (Am Fam) were lower. My rate started out at $160 per year but dropped (even though they said it goes up for older boats) to $85 per year. Figure that one. Our '93 M15 is still at $69 per year. Randy P. ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: Wilsometer@aol.com Subject: Re: M_Boats: insurance Date: 05 Feb 1997 02:24:10 -0500 (EST) I insured my 1991 M15 and Trailer with Boat U.S. at stated values of $4000 and $1000 respectively, for around $60/year, complete coverage. This is 1/5 of what my auto insurance company wanted. Boat U.S. also has something called "Trailer Club", or something to that effect, that offers specials for trailer sailors. I guess a good percentage of losses occur at the dock, especially in hurricane or freeze areas, so they cut a deal for those who store them at home/on land. Coverage included inland and coastal waters, Mexico to Alaska. I can't access the file with my policy right now, but if anyone wants more info, let me know. Scott Grometer, M15 #478 ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: Wilsometer@aol.com Subject: M_Boats: Honda 2hp Date: 05 Feb 1997 02:31:21 -0500 (EST) Rich: Could I extract some info from you regarding your Honda 2hp? Fuel consumption (full throttle and cruise)? Long or Short shaft? Adequate speed (knots/% throttle if possible)? Noise? Reliability? I am already fairly committed to buying the Honda, but I would love to hear any input. thanks, Scott Grometer M15, #478 ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: Mont15@aol.com Subject: M_Boats: Seth: storm jib info. Date: 05 Feb 1997 03:19:05 -0500 (EST) Seth, I had the sail made for, I believe, $140. off season. The sail is smaller than the reefed jib, and it does not go past the mast. I do not have the exact measurement. Bob Hogin, of Hogin Sails, took measurements from my boat. It really works well with a double reefed main in winds of 25 gusting to 30. The boat balances out really well and maintains good speed. I hit, for example, 6 knots with a double reefed main with a reefed jib. The storm sail is well worth the investment. Bert ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: Randy Graves Subject: M_Boats: Boat Insurance Date: 05 Feb 1997 07:05:25 -0700 We insure our '88 M-15 with State Farm, the same carrier as our auto = insurance. It cost us 84$ a year. This premium may reflect our shorter = sailing season here in Idaho. I don't recall the specifics regarding = the coverage. At the time when I price/coverage shopped the coverage = seemed good, and more than adequately covered my concerns. I was = especially concerned with coverage while trailering as we tow a lot. = Most all my other quotes where in the 120$ - 160$ per year category. = Our State Farm agent is kind of a funny older guy. It's really his = office manager that gets the work done. One time I called to check = something regarding our boat coverage, and he told me they don't insure = sail boats, and he was sure he had never written a policy for one! At = the time he had been insuring our Laguna 24 four about 6 years! The = office manager quickly called me back!=20 Randy G. ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: TOM_JANSTROM@HP-Boise-om2.om.hp.com Subject: Re: M_Boats: Honda 2hp Date: 05 Feb 1997 09:20:04 -0700 Item Subject: M_Boats: Honda 2hp Scott, I used a Honda BF20 on my M15, #199, while I owned her. Very fine engine in most regards. The only limitation is that the Honda has no neutral position which the previous Seagull 55 did. Be careful when starting the engine! The short Vs long shaft choice has no clear cut answer. The long shaft motor keeps its prop in the water better when the water is choppy, but the short shaft motor suffices and doesn't drag the prop and gearbox in the water nearly as badly when the boat is heeled on starboard tack. (My BF20 was the short one.) If you're fairly commited, buy! It's a good choice. As for the Seagull 55, it was a treasure, albeit a noisy one, before it was stolen. Started easily, stone simple - not that it ever needed repairing - and vastly more crusty and nautical than the Honda. It actually suited the character of the M15 quite well. But if I were buying today..... TJ ex-M15 #199, Williwaw ______________________________ Reply Separator _________________________________ Author: Non-HP-owner-montgomery-boats (owner-montgomery_boats@xmission.com) at hp-boise,shargw5 Rich: Could I extract some info from you regarding your Honda 2hp? Fuel consumption (full throttle and cruise)? Long or Short shaft? Adequate speed (knots/% throttle if possible? Noise? Reliability? I am already fairly committed to buying the Honda, but I would love to hear any input. thanks, Scott Grometer M15, #478 ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: rc2222@pacbell.net Subject: M_Boats: Honda Motor Date: 05 Feb 1997 13:27:27 -0800 Scott: I haven't used my new to me Honda yet. I'll let you know how it performs soon-I hope. Tom: Did insurance cover the theft of your Seagull 55? Rich ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: Wilsometer@aol.com Subject: Re: M_Boats: thanks for info Date: 06 Feb 1997 03:37:14 -0500 (EST) Tom and Rich: Thanks for the response about the Honda outboard. Tom: did you keep track of fuel consumption? I have heard some amazing tales of 2-4 times the fuel economy of comparable hp 2-strokes. Rich: did you go with a short or long shaft? Thanks again! Scott Grometer, M15, #478 ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: rc2222@pacbell.net Subject: M_Boats: Honda Date: 06 Feb 1997 08:43:14 -0800 Scott: The Honda came with the M15 I purchased in December. It's a short shaft. I have a Nissan 2.5, which I like very much but it's a gas guzzler. Honda motors have an excellent reputation. I understand the 2hp costs around $ 700 new. I was thinking of selling the Honda but I now think I'll sell the Nissan, a 1993, with no more than 40 hours. I recently had it serviced at West Marine and they say it in excellent condition. $ 265.00. Rich ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: MSLOYACANO@aol.com Subject: M_Boats: how to get to your bulletin board Date: 08 Feb 1997 04:30:56 -0500 (EST) I am having trouble finding you. Please tell me what is the secret to accessing your board? Thanks, msloyacano@aol.com ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: Mont15@aol.com Subject: M_Boats: Seth: storm jib measurement Date: 08 Feb 1997 20:34:21 -0500 (EST) Seth, I took my storm jib home and measured it on my living room floor. It fills up a large portion of the room because the main part of my house is only 550 square feet including a bathroom and two bedrooms. To the point: the jib is 20.15 square feet. The luff is 12'2". The foot of the sail is angled up from the tack. It is 8'8" from the head to a line perpendicular to the clew. From that point along the luff is 3'6" to the tack. I hope this makes sense. The sail is an absolute dream. In heavy winds with a double reefed main the boat is in perfect balance. Bert ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: Randolph I Palmer Subject: Re: M_Boats: Seth: storm jib measurement Date: 08 Feb 1997 20:38:24 -0600 (CST) Seth, I looked for my notes on my still new-in-the-bag storm jib. It sounds like Bert's. I talked to Johnson Sails and they were trying to sell me a 25 sf storm jib, as did a couple of other places. The thought is: who needs a true storm jib on a 15 foot boat anyway? They don't know the M_Boat croud, do they? My notes from Bower's are missing and the invoice only tells me I paid $100 for it. I'm quite sure it is 20 sf. The mainsail should be getting another reef any day now... maybe get to try the storm jib out this summer. Got a different car yesterday - dark green to match the stripe on the M15, of course! Randy P. On Sat, 8 Feb 1997 Mont15@aol.com wrote: > Seth, I took my storm jib home and measured it on my living room floor. It > fills up a large portion of the room because the main part of my house is > only 550 square feet including a bathroom and two bedrooms. > To the point: the jib is 20.15 square feet. The luff is 12'2". The foot of > the sail is angled up from the tack. It is 8'8" from the head to a line > perpendicular to the clew. From that point along the luff is 3'6" to the > tack. I hope this makes sense. The sail is an absolute dream. In heavy > winds with a double reefed main the boat is in perfect balance. Bert > > ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: Joe Kidd Subject: Re: M_Boats: Seth: storm jib measurement Date: 08 Feb 1997 22:08:09 -0800 At 08:34 PM 2/8/97 -0500, you wrote: >Seth, I took my storm jib home and measured it on my living room floor. It >fills up a large portion of the room because the main part of my house is >only 550 square feet including a bathroom and two bedrooms. > To the point: the jib is 20.15 square feet. The luff is 12'2". The foot of >the sail is angled up from the tack. It is 8'8" from the head to a line >perpendicular to the clew. From that point along the luff is 3'6" to the >tack. I hope this makes sense. The sail is an absolute dream. In heavy >winds with a double reefed main the boat is in perfect balance. Bert > > Seth & Bert, Thanks for your discussion regarding Montgomery sails. It gives me a chance to join in and learn from your experiences. I also have a storm jib for my M-15. I'll have to measure it to see if it's measurements are anything like you describe. I've never used it, but with the double reefed main, it sounds like a good sail to have. I just received my mainsail back from Larsen Sails. They added sail slugs, a second set of reef points, renewed the cracking numbers and did a general inspection. The slugs are attached by hand-sewn nylon webbing through brass grommets. The total bill (including labor, materials, tax and shipping) was only $87.84 -- and they did quality workmanship. Larsen quoted me prices of $390 for a new main and $280 for a multi-colored 110% jib. Since I don't need to replace the main, I think I'll order the extra jib before the price goes up. For some reason my messages have not been getting through to the Montgomery owners' network. Hope this one makes it. And Bert... I'd like to learn more about the sailing conditions when you found the double reefed main and storm jib to be so effective. Joe Kidd M-15 "Poco A Poco" ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: slyingst@sonic.net (Stephen Yingst) Subject: Re: M_Boats: Seth: storm jib measurement Date: 09 Feb 1997 08:51:14 -0800 The conditionions necessitating a "double reefed main and storm jib?"...probably just a normal summer day sail under the Golden Gate Bridge. By-the-bye...I spoke with Jerry Montgomery yesterday afternoon and he said that he had just seen the molds for the M-15 still sitting up in Washington state. He also had some less than complementary things to say about the "buyer" of the molds, but hey, let's let sleeping dogs lie (so to speak). "He was born with the gift of laughter and a sense that the world was mad." ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: rc2222@pacbell.net Subject: M_Boats: Sails Date: 09 Feb 1997 09:14:02 -0800 Cap't Kidd: How many slugs did Larson install in Poco Poco's main? Rich ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: Joe Kidd Subject: Re: M_Boats: Sails Date: 09 Feb 1997 13:28:25 -0800 At 09:14 AM 2/9/97 -0800, you wrote: >Cap't Kidd: > > How many slugs did Larson install in Poco Poco's main? > > Rich > >Rich, Larsen installed eight (8) slugs on the main. They are the nylon (plastic?) type with the wire bales. Joe ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: Harvey Wilson <102072.2315@CompuServe.COM> Subject: M_Boats: Getting Stargazer Ready Date: 09 Feb 1997 21:49:17 EST Hi Y'all.. Well, I took the hand rails off Stargazer and am busily filing the weathered grooves out of the wood, then will move to sandpaperfor finishing. I have 2 questions for those who have worked on the M-17 ... how do you remove the hatch slides, and what kinda grief am I looking at to replace the windows with bronze opening ones ? I saw some neat ones in WM catalog, like the ones on Compac 19 & 23. Looks like the window opening would need enlarging in the front to install it. A bit pricey, but nice looking...and it'll be _my_ valentine present (to me and Stargazer). Maybe stainless would be a better way to go...I'm open to suggestions on what's worked for y'all. I've also thought about the locker latches on the newer M-17's, and the "wet locker". Anyone with one on his boat care to send me a pic of what it looks like, and how much trouble to add something to mine ?? (next year's project) Harvey/ Atl M-17 Stargazer #294 ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: SailBabb@aol.com Subject: Re: M_Boats: Seth: storm jib measurement Date: 10 Feb 1997 00:13:17 -0500 (EST) Does anyone know a good product for washing sails clean and not hurting them? Some one suggested a little bleach, but how much and what type of soap does one use? ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: Karen and John Fell Subject: Re: M_Boats: Seth: storm jib measurement Date: 10 Feb 1997 20:58:03 -0800 (PST) Joe, could you please let me know what address you sent your main for a second reef point. I have found a few times when it would have been appropriate to of had a second set. Here in southern california it has not been often when I experience severe wheather but non the less I want to be prepared. thanks John Fell. At 10:08 PM 2/8/97 -0800, you wrote: >At 08:34 PM 2/8/97 -0500, you wrote: >>Seth, I took my storm jib home and measured it on my living room floor. It >>fills up a large portion of the room because the main part of my house is >>only 550 square feet including a bathroom and two bedrooms. >> To the point: the jib is 20.15 square feet. The luff is 12'2". The foot of >>the sail is angled up from the tack. It is 8'8" from the head to a line >>perpendicular to the clew. From that point along the luff is 3'6" to the >>tack. I hope this makes sense. The sail is an absolute dream. In heavy >>winds with a double reefed main the boat is in perfect balance. Bert >> >> >Seth & Bert, > Thanks for your discussion regarding Montgomery sails. It gives me >a chance to join in and learn from your experiences. I also have a storm >jib for my M-15. I'll have to measure it to see if it's measurements are >anything like you describe. I've never used it, but with the double reefed >main, it sounds like a good sail to have. > I just received my mainsail back from Larsen Sails. They added sail >slugs, a second set of reef points, renewed the cracking numbers and did a >general inspection. The slugs are attached by hand-sewn nylon webbing >through brass grommets. The total bill (including labor, materials, tax and >shipping) was only $87.84 -- and they did quality workmanship. Larsen >quoted me prices of $390 for a new main and $280 for a multi-colored 110% >jib. Since I don't need to replace the main, I think I'll order the extra >jib before the price goes up. > For some reason my messages have not been getting through to the >Montgomery owners' network. Hope this one makes it. And Bert... I'd like >to learn more about the sailing conditions when you found the double reefed >main and storm jib to be so effective. > Joe Kidd M-15 "Poco A Poco" > > > ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: becker-r@postoffice.worldnet.att.net (Robert Becker) Date: 09 Feb 1997 17:57:46 +0000 Joe Kid wrote " Larsen quoted me prices of $390 for a new main and $280 for a multi-colored 110% jib" Joe, are you getting a mutlicolored main also? I have rainbow sails on my 82 M15, which are probably original. They look good from a distance, but up close you can see fading and some discoloration. I had to do some batten pocket patching and could not match the color of the patch tape with the sail color, so that does not look too good. I have heard colored sails do not last as long as the traditional white sails, and you pay extra for them, but still, I like them. If you what to see what they look like, let me know and I will individually send pictures (I do not want to burden the xmission system with a large file). Bob ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: SailBabb@aol.com Subject: M_Boats: Re: No Subject Date: 11 Feb 1997 12:03:53 -0500 (EST) HAPPY MARDI GRAS from Sailbabb of Louisiana ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: Joe Kidd Subject: Re: M_Boats: Seth: storm jib measurement Date: 11 Feb 1997 17:43:04 -0800 At 08:58 PM 2/10/97 -0800, you wrote: >Joe, could you please let me know what address you sent your main for a >second reef point. I have found a few times when it would have been >appropriate to of had a second set. Here in southern california it has not >been often when I experience severe wheather but non the less I want to be >prepared. thanks John Fell. At 10:08 PM 2/8/97 -0800, you wrote: >>At 08:34 PM 2/8/97 -0500, you wrote: >>>Seth, I took my storm jib home and measured it on my living room floor. It >>>fills up a large portion of the room because the main part of my house is >>>only 550 square feet including a bathroom and two bedrooms. >>> To the point: the jib is 20.15 square feet. The luff is 12'2". The foot of >>>the sail is angled up from the tack. It is 8'8" from the head to a line >>>perpendicular to the clew. From that point along the luff is 3'6" to the >>>tack. I hope this makes sense. The sail is an absolute dream. In heavy >>>winds with a double reefed main the boat is in perfect balance. Bert >>> >>> >>Seth & Bert, >> Thanks for your discussion regarding Montgomery sails. It gives me >>a chance to join in and learn from your experiences. I also have a storm >>jib for my M-15. I'll have to measure it to see if it's measurements are >>anything like you describe. I've never used it, but with the double reefed >>main, it sounds like a good sail to have. >> I just received my mainsail back from Larsen Sails. They added sail >>slugs, a second set of reef points, renewed the cracking numbers and did a >>general inspection. The slugs are attached by hand-sewn nylon webbing >>through brass grommets. The total bill (including labor, materials, tax and >>shipping) was only $87.84 -- and they did quality workmanship. Larsen >>quoted me prices of $390 for a new main and $280 for a multi-colored 110% >>jib. Since I don't need to replace the main, I think I'll order the extra >>jib before the price goes up. >> For some reason my messages have not been getting through to the >>Montgomery owners' network. Hope this one makes it. And Bert... I'd like >>to learn more about the sailing conditions when you found the double reefed >>main and storm jib to be so effective. >> Joe Kidd M-15 "Poco A Poco" >> >> >> > > Seth, The address is Larsen Sails, 1041A 17th Avenue, Santa Cruz, CA 95062. Toll free phone number is 1-800-347-6817. Ask for Kurt Larsen or Bob White. I think you'll like doing business with them. I'm leaving for an 8-day vacation tomorrow. We're taking our Toyota motorhome to the coast, with a side-trip to Long Beach to visit our son. I'll check in with you when I get home to see what you decided to do with the sail. Joe ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: Joe Kidd Subject: M_Boats: Re: Date: 11 Feb 1997 17:50:28 -0800 At 05:57 PM 2/9/97 +0000, you wrote: >Joe Kid wrote " Larsen >quoted me prices of $390 for a new main and $280 for a multi-colored 110% >jib" > >Joe, are you getting a mutlicolored main also? > >I have rainbow sails on my 82 M15, which are probably original. They look >good from a distance, but up close you can see fading and some >discoloration. I had to do some batten pocket patching and could not match >the color of the patch tape with the sail color, so that does not look too >good. I have heard colored sails do not last as long as the traditional >white sails, and you pay extra for them, but still, I like them. > >If you what to see what they look like, let me know and I will individually >send pictures (I do not want to burden the xmission system with a large >file). > >Bob > > > Bob, At this point, I'm considering just the multi-colored 110% jib. I had one on my other boat and liked the looks of it (purple, yellow, baby blue, gold and red). I like the 110% jib. On SF Bay I would generally leave it up until the wind got over 25 and reef the main -- of course, my Alacrity was a much stiffer boat than the M-15. I appreciate the offer of the pictures. Perhaps later this Spring, when I get closer to ordering the jib, I'll ask you for your pictures. Right now I'm mostly dreaming and wondering... Joe ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: Joe Kidd Subject: Re: M_Boats: Re: No Subject Date: 11 Feb 1997 17:52:24 -0800 At 12:03 PM 2/11/97 -0500, you wrote: > > > > > > > >HAPPY MARDI GRAS > from Sailbabb of Louisiana > > HAPPY FAT TUESDAY back at you! I hear it is so cold everyone had to cover their skimpy costumes with overcoats... Joe Kidd ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: SailBabb@aol.com Subject: Re: M_Boats: Re: No Subject Date: 12 Feb 1997 15:44:38 -0500 (EST) No ,they had so much antifreez in them, it didn't make any difference. However, it was too cold to take the M17 out for a sail. Sailbabb ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: jcrewser@juno.com (John S. Crews) Subject: M_Boats: Hoisting the M17 Date: 13 Feb 1997 00:55:44 EST Dear Fellow Montgomeryites, At a place called Gaviota Beach, a relatively short distance from where I live, is a pier with an unattended public hoist at the end. It is the only access to many miles of ocean on the California Central Coast between Santa Barbara and Avila Bay. The prospective user must supply all his own slings and spreader bars as required. An additional complication is that no motor vehicles are allowed on the pier. You can back your trailer onto the pier, but then you must push it by hand the 100 yards out to the hoist. I'm pondering the feasibility of hoisting my M17 by 4 cables that come together to a single overhead ring. The cables would attach to the points where the forestay, backstays and shrouds attach. As an alternative I could fabricate a spreader bar with a shorter cross-bar so that the cables pulled vertically. I could also fabricate a simple dolly to help with moving the trailer. What are your thoughts? John Stephan Crews 1974 M17 "Allegretto" ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: Randy Graves Subject: RE: M_Boats: Hoisting the M17 Date: 13 Feb 1997 07:37:02 -0700 John, I recall seeing a sales brochure with a M-15 suspended in the air by = cables attached to it's chain plates. I understand the M-17 is quite a = bit heavier, but then you would be adding two additional attachments. = This must be the only way for you to get your M-17 into the water? Randy G. ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: brinefly@soft-link.com (Dick Allgire) Subject: RE: M_Boats: Hoisting the M17 Date: 13 Feb 1997 08:29:33 -0700 >John, > >I recall seeing a sales brochure with a M-15 suspended in the air by >cables attached to it's chain plates. I understand the M-17 is quite a >bit heavier, but then you would be adding two additional attachments. >This must be the only way for you to get your M-17 into the water? > >Randy G. I can't believe it....did yuou look closely? Think spring ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: Randolph I Palmer Subject: RE: M_Boats: Hoisting the M17 Date: 13 Feb 1997 13:07:44 -0600 (CST) John, I recall the brochure - in the mid-eighty's. I think they used those points to lift the top into place on the hull. I have my doubts about trying on a M17, though. Randy P. On Thu, 13 Feb 1997, Dick Allgire wrote: > >John, > > > >I recall seeing a sales brochure with a M-15 suspended in the air by > >cables attached to it's chain plates. I understand the M-17 is quite a > >bit heavier, but then you would be adding two additional attachments. > >This must be the only way for you to get your M-17 into the water? > > > >Randy G. > > I can't believe it....did yuou look closely? > > > Think spring > > > ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: Wilsometer@aol.com Subject: Re: M_Boats: Hoisting the M17 Date: 13 Feb 1997 14:19:36 -0500 (EST) John: Bert Felton had mentioned to me that he thought he had heard that this is how Jerry moved the boats around during production (at least the M15). Bert's Kokopelli has a suspicious eye mounted just under the tiller on the transom coaming. We thought that maybe this was used in combination with the chain plates to balance the boat during hoisting. Anyway, I'd love to know what you find out. I have been dabbling with designs to hoist My M15 in my garage so I can epoxy/bottom coat it as well as leave it hanging so I can send my trailer out for sandblasting/galvanizing! By the way, I've driven by Gaviota--what a beautiful place to sail!! Do you ever/ever plan to sail the Channel Islands? Happy Hoisting! Scott Grometer, M15 #478 ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: jgtown@ix.netcom.com (J Townley) Subject: RE: M_Boats: Using sling Date: 13 Feb 1997 14:15:47 -0600 (CST) I lifted my M17 to do repair work with two belt slings - one in front of and one behind the keel. seemed to work fine. Jay ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: "Larry Barkhuff/Nv." <102562.2650@CompuServe.COM> Subject: M_Boats: hoisting boats Date: 13 Feb 1997 16:53:03 EST When I was in the M factory in Costa Mesa I often saw the boats hanging after removal from the molds. However I know nothing was inside to add weight. We often lift boats with the bow eye (trailer eye) and ski tow rings using a chain hoist in the yard in Florida, I even know one fellow who used the cleat in the middle of the foredeck. You can guess how this turned out....pulled out.....(g) Larry ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: Mont15@aol.com Subject: Re: M_Boats: insurance Date: 05 Feb 1997 22:51:34 -0500 (EST) To the owner of Phantom Boat, I would be interested in the insurance you have. I have to look mine up, but I know it's at least $100., and it's most likely more. Thanks, Bert ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: rc2222@pacbell.net Subject: M_Boats: M17 Date: 09 Feb 1997 15:03:11 -0800 Tom: The ad appeared over six months ago. I don't have a copy. I'm not positive it was the same boat but there can't be many newer M 17s for sale in the Sacramento area. Rich ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: Joe Kidd Subject: M_Boats: Sail slugs & reef points Date: 05 Feb 1997 23:08:15 -0800 Shipment of the modified mainsail for my M-15 arrived yesterday from Larsen Sails in Santa Cruz. They added sail slugs on the luff and a second set of reef points. Initial inspection indicates an outstanding job. The slugs are attached by hand-sewn webbing through brass grommets. The total bill (including labor, materials, tax and shipping) was $87.84, which I consider to be quite reasonable. Larsen Sails said my mainsail was OK or they would not have bothered with it, wasting their time and my money. Larsen also sent requested quotes for a new main and a 110% jib. The price of a brand new M-15 mainsail is $390; a multi-colored 110% jib is $280. Judging from what others on this M-owners' net have reported paying, I think Larsen's sails are a good buy. I've been pleased with both price and quality of Larsen Sails. It was a pleasure to do business with them. They're honest. They're reasonable. They're prompt. They're craftsmen. They are all-around nice folks! If you need further details you can call Kurt Larsen or Bob White at 1-800-347-6817. Joe Kidd M-15 "Poco A Poco" ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: sethm@adfg.state.ak.us (Seth Macinko) Subject: M_Boats: RE: suspended M-15 Date: 14 Feb 1997 13:32:41 -0700 (MST) >>John, >> >>I recall seeing a sales brochure with a M-15 suspended in the air by >>cables attached to it's chain plates. I understand the M-17 is quite a >>bit heavier, but then you would be adding two additional attachments. >>This must be the only way for you to get your M-17 into the water? >> >>Randy G. > >I can't believe it....did yuou look closely? > > >Think spring Believe it. I have an original copy of that same (I think) Montgomery sales brochure and every time I look it sure looks like an M-15 suspended by its chainplates. Seth ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: Randolph I Palmer Subject: M_Boats: M23 (fwd) Date: 14 Feb 1997 20:52:56 -0600 (CST) Hi Tom, It seems the responses to your request are as rare as the M23's themselves. I'll give you a brief synopsis and we can go from there: Could someone give me details on the M23. What years were they made and are any less desirable than others? What are any particular drawbacks to them. Thanks Tom About 12 M23's were made in 1979, perhaps 2 or 3 in 1980, and another 4 were made in 1982 for a total in the 17-18 range. Several were sold as kit boats (including mine). The boat cost about twice of a Catalina 22 - so were fairly expensive. Several were used for racing, and apparently they produced some good results. Jerry M_ told me they do best in light airs with a 150 genoa. I know that even with my 110 jib I've passed many lighter boats with much larger sails in light winds. I'm sure a 150 would help a bunch (it's been on my wish list since I got her but so far is still is on that list). Specs: Lenght: 23'0" L.W.L.: 20'10" (about the same as a lot of 27- 28 footers) Beam: 8'0" Weight: 3600# (Jerry said actually closer to 4K) Ballast (incl. CB): 1530# Center board: 320 # Sail area (100% jib) 249sf Draft (CB up): 2'5" (CB down): 4'11" I=9.5 J=30 P=25.25 E=9 PHRF rating (12/'78) 234/228 The standard boat included standup head, (headroom is about 5'8") a small galley, a v-berth and two quarter berths. Factory finished boats had lots of teak in them with ash planking. The boat sails like a dinghy - it is fairly round. At first I found this to be quite frightening as it would readily heal over 15-20 degrees in a moderate puff. As I learned how to use the traveler and other controls (plus we replaced a garbage furler so we could actually furl the jib) I really came to appreciate how responsive the boat is. A lot of boats seem like dogs now that I'm used to the M_Boats (I don't think I'm alone on this list server in that opinion!) The previous owner sailed it across Lake Michigan 2-3 times and on Lake Huron once. He said the wost conditions they ever saw was right under the Mackinac Bridge. They hit wind going against a current that produced 8 foot waves. He said the boat seemed to handle it just fine. Sounded like a sales pitch at the time. Our experience has been not quite so daring, but we've learned to like that round hull. On Green Bay (Door Co., WI) we encountered about 5' wave that were steep. The fine entry cut through the waves and even though I'll swear the bow was down flush with them a few times, I got about 3 sprinkles on me the whole day. After realizing we could be out in waves where you couldn't see shore sitting while down (what are some 'flat water sailors' like us doing out here anyway???) we relaxed and learned to trust the boat. The boat does have a fine entry to the hull which allows her to point quite high (frustating other sailors). One problem is that it reduces forward flotation for offshoe work and it creates a tiny space for a V-berth (my main complaint). The cabin is roomy and airy but to some it looks quite boxy. Jerry M. was a little disappointed in the top so he abandoned it when he move to Rancho Cordova. I spent some of my vacation last July talking to Pat Sweeney of Annapolis Launch... she wanted to build a new M23 for herself. I gave her several suggestions - including a baby stay for a 'cutter' layout - but I don't think they'll ever get the molds for it the way things are going with Chuck McCoy. I do have plans for a cutter rig that Lyle Hess designed for the boat, by the way. With the tall mast (29 feet) and mast head jib, there are times I'd like less sail so I don't stand on my ear and I have considered adding a removable 'baby stay' to my boat. Well is that a good, short reply? If not Larry, Tom J., Tony, T. Michael or someone else can help fill in the blanks. Randy P. '82/'85 M23 #88 "Early Light" ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: rc2222@pacbell.net Subject: M_Boats: Annopolis Launch & Dinghy Date: 15 Feb 1997 09:40:02 -0800 Randy In your note to Tom regarding the M23 you mentioned that you spoke to Pat Sweeney of Annapolis Launch & Dinghy last July. Is Pat Sweeney part of AL&D? She has denied having any business relationships with Chuck McCoy. Could you please fill us in on just what AL & D, Chuck McCoy and Frances Kirkland have in common other than that Pat is Frances' mother and Frances is Chucks former secretary and current girlfriend? Any information anyone on the Montgomery Subscribers list can provide Tom, Jerry and me will be most helpful to us in our attempt to salvage some of our losses. We dont't know how many people Chuck McCoy has bilked but we're convinced there's alot more than just the three of us. Thank's Rich Cottrell ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: TOMMYVAL@aol.com Subject: Re: M_Boats: Annopolis Launch & Dinghy Date: 15 Feb 1997 13:09:24 -0500 (EST) Rich, Is Chuck just behind on his orders or did he accept deposits and not refund the money ? I met Chuck and Fran at the Washington DC boat show last year and they used my M-17 in the Annapolis spring show. My understanding is just what you stated. Chuck owns the business, Fran used to be his sec. and Pat is Frans Mom. I was quite surprised to hear of his problems. While I really dont know him all that well, he certainly came across as an upright person who had a sincere interest in building the M boats and even making some improvements. As far as Pat and Fran go they are both great folks, been sailing with them, had dinner at their house and I just dont have anything but good things to say about them. (same goes for Chuck) What type of M boat did you order ? and are you totally out of luck or do you think there is some chance you may get the boat or a refund. If I hear any news on AL&D I'll pass it on, good luck with your situation and hopefully things will work out. Good Sailing Tommy ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: Wilsometer@aol.com Subject: Re: M_Boats: insurance Date: 15 Feb 1997 14:20:55 -0500 (EST) Bert: I'll unearth the insurance policy and post the specifics. Scott Grometer ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: Randolph I Palmer Subject: Re: M_Boats: Annopolis Launch & Dinghy Date: 16 Feb 1997 10:27:54 -0600 (CST) On Sat, 15 Feb 1997 rc2222@pacbell.net wrote: > Randy > > In your note to Tom regarding the M23 you mentioned that > you spoke to Pat Sweeney of Annapolis Launch & Dinghy last > July. > Is Pat Sweeney part of AL&D? She has denied having any > business relationships with Chuck McCoy. Could you please > fill us in on just what AL & D, Chuck McCoy and Frances > Kirkland have in common other than that Pat is Frances' > mother and Frances is Chucks former secretary and current > girlfriend? > Any information anyone on the Montgomery Subscribers list > can provide Tom, Jerry and me will be most helpful to us in > our attempt to salvage some of our losses. > We dont't know how many people Chuck McCoy has bilked but > we're convinced there's alot more than just the three of us. > > Thank's > Rich Cottrell > Rich, My wife and I spent a couple of hours at Pat's condo in Annapolis. We met Frances, her daughter, briefly. Frances had to go to work. My understanding is that Pat has taught sailing at the Naval Academy for many years. I don't know if she put any money into the business with Chuck or not. He was planning on being in Annapolis the week we were there to make a delivery, but I was told he was working long hours to get caught up on orders and was running behind. As I understand it, Frances was working in a booth next to Chuck at the Annapolis Boat Show and got to know each other and started dating. Chuck was considering quitting the boat building business because he didn't like the paperwork and sales aspects of the business. This didn't shock me because Jerry M_ had a similar attitude. Frances said her background was in marketing - so the idea for AL & D was launched. Chuck was looking at moving his operation to Annapolis from Seattle. The market seems to be strong there for the M_Boats. Jerry even told me he was on the wrong coast for the M_'s as the traditional boat market is on the east coast. My main purpose in visiting Pat was to discuss the M-23. She said that she was planning on having the first one made. I had some ideas on how I would change the boat and she wanted to exchange ideas. I was favorably impressed by her and Frances. Their main concern was that Chuck could keep up with the demand that they found out there for the M_Boats. They were somewhat overwhelmed by the interest - I got the distinct impression that they didn't realized what they had until they sailed a used M-17 (yours?) and they saw the intense interest in the boats. While we were there about 3 phone calls came in asking for information - including a very serious caller from England. So I left excited about the prospect of seeing a new M23 in production and more M_boats on the water. I secretly wished that I could be part of it all. I don't know if Chuck was out to do a scam job. He has produced lapstrake dinghies for many years. My understanding is that Jerry offered to sell him the M_molds more than once - and the last time to deal was too good to pass up. The deal was apparently not done in a professional manner as both parties felt taken. Things were not spelled out properly. I suspect that Chuck isn't much of a business person (as if Jerry was) and the costs and time of setting this up were beyond him - I think he wants a one-man shop. I haven't wanted to bother Pat on this because she was such a gracious host but I am curious as to what happened. Randy P. ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: Randolph I Palmer Subject: Re: M_Boats: Annopolis Launch & Dinghy Date: 16 Feb 1997 10:33:55 -0600 (CST) Correction: was the M17 that Pat sailed on yours, Tommy? Randy P. ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: TOMMYVAL@aol.com Subject: Re: M_Boats: Annopolis Launch & Dinghy Date: 16 Feb 1997 15:25:10 -0500 (EST) Randy, Yes, Pat and I and my buddy Greg Hann (M17 the last one Jerry built) and a couple of potential buyers spent a day on the Chesapeake Bay. I keep the boat at Spring Cove Marina in Solomoms, Md. and we took out both M17's for about 4-5 hours. Had 14-15 Knots of winds and a great sail. The boats really bite the water and are super stiff for a 17 ft boat. Pat was with me and Fran was on Greg's boat. I can assure you both Pat and Fran were impressed with the boats. Pat was already making notes on what could be improved and in fact called Chuck on her cell phone from the parking lot. I do believe they were very exited about building the Montgomery's and as one of the letters said they had a ton of interest in the 17 and the 15. We had an East Coast raft up in Sept 96 and Chuck was going to come down and meet some of the owners, unfortunately he did not show, I believe he had to go back to Washington to do business. I havent had a chance to talk with Fran or Chuck since last Sept. I plan on going to the Washington DC boat show and that is where I met them so it will be interesting to see if they are there this year. I do believe he was plannig to do the Annapolis fall show but it never happened. Do you know if he accepted deposits and did not return the money ? That doesnt sound like him at all. My experience with Chuck, Fran and Pat is all positive and it just doesnt seem like him. Hopefully he will get it together. If he cant do you know if anyone else has an interest in the molds? Maybe he would sell them. It would be very nice to keep the Montgomery's alive and build ourself a nice little association. Anyway if your ever on the East coast email me and we can go for a sail. Also are you sailing out of Door County ? Used to live in Milwaukee had to leave could not handle the winters. Take care and I look forward to talking to you again Gary aka tommy ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: rc2222@pacbell.net Subject: M_Boats: AL &D Date: 16 Feb 1997 13:08:19 -0800 Tommy and Randy: Thank you for responding to my inquiry re: Pat Sweeney. I've been communicating with Pat by E-Mail since September. I would have given up on my supposed M15 much sooner had it not been for Pat and Frances giving me encouragement to hang in there and wait it out. Pat knows better now. Frances was Chuck's office manager last March 13th when I contracted to purchase the M15. What Chuck McCoy's intentions were are not relevant to the facts. He has defrauded me and Tom Wilkinson, and god knows how many more. I've told my experience up through early January in the forth coming Montgomery Owners Newsletter. I intend to write a follow-up article for the next newsletter if the editor feels its newsworthy. I continue to communicate with Jerry Montgomery, Tom Wilkinson, and Pat Sweeney. Incidently, Pat and Frances seem to be fine people and I hope they had nothing to do with Mr. McCoy's business dealings Although I have never met Jerry Montgomery, I can tell you, through our telephone conversations and letters, he is doing one heck of a job in trying to get out of the current mess. As I've stated in the past, Chuck McCoy drips with sincerity. It's very easy to be taken by him. It's been a very painful experience. The best thing I did was go out and buy Really to get on with it. I love my little M15 and am enjoying sailing once again, after almost a year without a boat. Rich M15 288, Really ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: jcrewser@juno.com (John S. Crews) Subject: M_Boats: Hoisting M17 Date: 16 Feb 1997 20:42:52 EST In response to my inquiries into hoisting my M17 off Gaviota Pier, Scott Grometer wrote: >By the way, I've driven by Gaviota--what a beautiful place to sail!! Do you >ever/ever plan to sail the Channel Islands? Now you know, Scott, why I am so motivated to get into the water at this spot! Yes, I have sailed my M17 from Ventura and Channel Islands harbors to Anacapa and Santa Cruz islands. The distances involved are 11 to 16 miles one way. I highly recommend the trip, picking your weather very carefully. Regarding lifting a boat by the chainplates, I've always heard that a well-designed sailboat should be able to support its own weight by the chainplates. It kinda makes sense when you think about the forces on the shroud lines in a worst-case scenario. ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: Randolph I Palmer Subject: Re: M_Boats: Annopolis Launch & Dinghy Date: 17 Feb 1997 10:21:15 -0600 (CST) On Sun, 16 Feb 1997 TOMMYVAL@aol.com wrote: > > We had an East Coast raft up in Sept 96 and Chuck was going to come down and > meet some of the owners, unfortunately he did not show,... Pat said Chuck is not a sailer - that she was giving him lessons - and he was a natural...> > Anyway if your ever on the East coast email me and we can go for a sail. Also > are you sailing out of Door County ? Used to live in Milwaukee had to leave > could not handle the winters. > And you lived in the 'Tropical' part of Wisconsin!> Randy P. ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: rc2222@pacbell.net Subject: M_Boats: (no subject) Date: 17 Feb 1997 08:45:55 -0800 Bob: Mike of "SF-tides" informed me that program is only available for Mac users. Rich ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: Wilsometer@aol.com Subject: Re: M_Boats: Hoisting M17 and Channel Islands Date: 17 Feb 1997 12:16:42 -0500 (EST) John: Thanks for your reply about sailing the Channel Islands a couple of years ago. I bought Brian Fagan's book, and have been day dreaming about such a cruise ever since. I'll have to query you sometime about your favorite anchorages, etc. I have since spoken to a number of people about hoisting/hanging the M Boats from their chainplates. I looked at the "chainplates" on my M-15, and I realize that you probably have a different configuration. On the M15, the eye is welded to a stainless rod that hides under the rolled over joint where deck and hull are bonded. Upon furhter inspection, and after realizing that there are no structural bulkheads to distribute the stress loading, I would want it straight from Jerry's mouth that it was safe to hoist in thius manner. Furthermore, the M17 weighs twice that of the M15. Just thought I should offer this disclaimer after my initial words of encouragement!! Scott Grometer, M15 #478 ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: TEHowe@aol.com Subject: Re: M_Boats: Hoisting M17 and Channel Islands Date: 17 Feb 1997 14:38:26 -0500 (EST) I have misplaced the address for the Montgomery Owners Newsletter, can anyone post it for me? Thanks in advance. I have been out to the lake 2 or 3 times a week recently, but it is still hard. 65 and windy today, this should aid the melting process. Meanwhile, I sail vicariuosly thruogh the postings on this list, and daydream about spring evenings aboard! Thanks for everybodies experiences. TH, M-17 #278, Osprey. ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: "Keith Diehl" Subject: Re: M_Boats: Hoisting M17 and Channel Islands Date: 17 Feb 1997 15:25:24 -0700 Try: Terry Schwarze P.O. Box 1091 Winona, WI 55987 schwarze@VAX2.Winona.MSUS.EDU ---------- > From: TEHowe@aol.com > To: montgomery_boats@xmission.com > Subject: Re: M_Boats: Hoisting M17 and Channel Islands > Date: Monday, February 17, 1997 12:38 PM > > I have misplaced the address for the Montgomery Owners Newsletter, can anyone > post it for me? Thanks in advance. > I have been out to the lake 2 or 3 times a week recently, but it is still > hard. 65 and windy today, this should aid the melting process. Meanwhile, I > sail vicariuosly thruogh the postings on this list, and daydream about spring > evenings aboard! Thanks for everybodies experiences. TH, M-17 #278, Osprey. ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: Mont15@aol.com Subject: M_Boats: What bottom paint? Help! Date: 18 Feb 1997 20:50:50 -0500 (EST) What bottom paints have any of you used? I taking my 15 to the Northwest this summer and will leave the boat in the water for about two weeks. Yard foremen in boatyards strongly suggest painting the bottom first. In addition I am planning on leaving the boat in the water during the summer months on S.F. Bay. The boat is stored in a boat yard on a trailer the rest of the time. It has been recommended that I put on three coats of Interlux 2000 primer and then add three coats of Interlux Micron CSC Extra. Any other ideas would be much appreciated. The yards want a whooping $800 for the job. Bert (Kokopelli) ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: slyingst@sonic.net (Stephen Yingst) Subject: Re: M_Boats: What bottom paint? Help! Date: 18 Feb 1997 18:27:03 -0800 Bert... I've used Petit Trinidad in SF bay and have gotten 2 years of continuous good service, with a third year of bi-monthly scrapings being necessary. "He was born with the gift of laughter and a sense that the world was mad." ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: Wilsometer@aol.com Subject: M_Boats: "SF-tides" Date: 17 Feb 1997 15:16:13 -0500 (EST) Long live the MAC!!! ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: Mont15@aol.com Subject: Re: M_Boats: What bottom paint? Help! Date: 18 Feb 1997 22:38:43 -0500 (EST) Did you leave your boat in the water the entire time? Or did you dry sail part of the time? Thanks, Bert ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: jgtown@ix.netcom.com (J Townley) Subject: Re: M_Boats: What bottom paint? Help! Date: 18 Feb 1997 23:23:29 -0600 (CST) I've left my boat in SF several summers; and didn't want to put bottom paint on the boat (but didn't want tons of stuff on the bottom of the boat either!) I ended up putting a substance from West Marine (not their brand - I'll have to get that for you) on the bottom; it worked great; about the consistency of bee's wax; you wipe it on; and if and when you want to take it off; use some thinner and elbow grease and you have a clean bottom and no bottom paint. Jay ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: John Anastasio Subject: M_Boats: Looking for Tom W. Date: 18 Feb 1997 21:53:42 -0800 Tom Wilkensen from Chico, CA. I've lost your E-mail address. Drop me a line ASAP or if anybody knows it could you pass it on. Thanks. John Anastasio ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: slyingst@sonic.net (Stephen Yingst) Subject: Re: M_Boats:Bottom Paint Date: 18 Feb 1997 22:18:13 -0800 Bert- That was on a Cal 34 that spent all of it's time in the water, either on the bay or parked in Richardson Bay (Sausalito). With that much bottom to paint I really needed paint that would last. "He was born with the gift of laughter and a sense that the world was mad." ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: Peter Balcziunas Subject: Re: M_Boats: What bottom paint? Help! Date: 19 Feb 1997 08:52:19 -0500 (EST) If I were only going to leave the boat in the water for two weeks, I wouldn't worry much about bottom paint. Any critters and whiskers you picked up wouldn't last long in the open air. Practical Sailor has done extensive testing of bottom paints, both for effectiveness and longevity. One of their conclusions is that the type of bottom paint used depends on the nature of the water and the latitude of the mooring. Areas of slow moving water and high chemical pollution (found in many marinas, unfortunately) promote algae growth at an astonishing pace. I've used Interlux Ultracoat successfully for the past 5 years, mostly for the upper chesapeake (more fresh water than salt) and Maine, each for a week or two at a time. It can be applied a couple of weeks before launching or even the same day. It isn't as dirty as "redhand" (well named for obvious reasons) and thus lends itself nicely to trailer sailing. As with all high tech mixes, it needs careful application and some safety attention, but can certainly be applied by a do-it-yourselfer (I am my best evidence). Defender Industries often sells Interlux products at 50% discounts. Even with the "hazardous chemicals" surcharge and UPS costs this is a good deal. Interlux has an 800# and an excelent technical advice line and its brochures are really complete. With West Marine's price matching policy, you can use Defender's catalog pricing to negotiate a better price from the folks in Watsonville if you prefer their fancier showrooms and catalogs. Assuming a bottom in reasonable shape (the boat's, I mean), 3 coats of primer is likely to be overkill. In any event, what you are looking at with a 15' boat is a Saturday's labor and certainly well within $50 to $75 bucks. $800 sounds like a rip-off, since a friend of mine who keeps a 34' Island Packet in Maine (near Wiscasset) pays a few bucks less to have his rather more substantial bottom treated annually. Maybe my experience is unique, so I look forward to hearing from others. Peter B. On Tue, 18 Feb 1997 Mont15@aol.com wrote: > What bottom paints have any of you used? I taking my 15 to the Northwest > this summer and will leave the boat in the water for about two weeks. Yard > foremen in boatyards strongly suggest painting the bottom first. In addition > I am planning on leaving the boat in the water during the summer months on > S.F. Bay. The boat is stored in a boat yard on a trailer the rest of the > time. > It has been recommended that I put on three coats of Interlux 2000 primer and > then add three coats of Interlux Micron CSC Extra. > Any other ideas would be much appreciated. The yards want a whooping $800 > for the job. Bert (Kokopelli) > ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: Randolph I Palmer Subject: Re: M_Boats: What bottom paint? Help! Date: 19 Feb 1997 08:17:10 -0600 (CST) Hi Bert=88y=C8k|g=BE=8Bw=C3=C4=89=C1Br, I've use Micron CSC=CB=DA=DF=DE=9E=E3=DB=E2=DB=9C=B9=F9~)=E7=EFZ=B0*rY=A5= =FD=DC=AEhH=CB and last year the new "Extra" for a couple of=20 reasons. The first is it was already on the boat (M23) when we bought it. = =20 Second, is the multiseason life which means it can dry out and still have= =20 some effectiveness. This makes it a good paint for trailering. I don't have bottom paint on my M15. I thought I'd look at one of the teflon products or maybe a vinyl product if I had to paint it. (Yuck).=20 The CSC=CB=DA=DF=DE=9E=E3=DB=E2=DB=9C=B9=F9~)=E7=EFZ=B0*rY=A5=FD=DC=AEhH=CB= is an ablative paint, which means you pile it on thick (like barn paint)and it wears off, exposing more of the copper to the elements (and creatures that find your boat attractive [like me]). The CSC Extra seems to be a little harder than the old product but I'd think there would be another product designed for the trailering crowd - even for motorboats - that you could apply in thinner layers.=CC There is nothing magical about bottom painting. I'm sure you can do it=20 yourself (you may need a jack or two under your keel to get it off the=20 trailer). Good luck. Randy P. =D7=C5(=F6=D3=B2=B0")5=FAKn=F5=E7=09:On Tue, 18 Feb 1997 Mont15@aol.com=20 wrote:P=B3=DA=E8C=DA=FB!H=DA;0=F8=D1=A0=FB"w=B6=F4=EF=09C=E1r=BE=C4&=E5Z=D6= =D4 UH=D0=A5$=C9=DA=BBL*Tx*5;=F5 > What bottom paints have any of you used? I taking my 15 to the Northwest > this summer and will leave the boat in the water for about two weeks. Ya= rd > foremen in boatyards strongly suggest painting the bottom first. In addi= tion > I am planning on leaving the boat in the water during the summer months o= n > S.F. Bay. The boat is stored in a boat yard on a trailer the rest of the > time.=20 > It has been recommended that I put on three coats of Interlux 2000 primer= and > then add three coats of Interlux Micron CSC Extra. =20 > Any other ideas would be much appreciated. The yards want a whooping $80= 0 > for the job. Bert (Kokopelli) >=20 >=20 ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: Randolph I Palmer Subject: M_Boats: Re: nothing magical??? Date: 19 Feb 1997 15:25:10 -0600 (CST) Hey Rand, How's winter treating you? Actually, I did jack up my Starwind 19 to paint under the bunks. I got the idea from a guy who had an S2 - 23 who did that to paint his boat. I used a 3 ton jack and some boards and blocking material. It leaned to one side so I painted the other side. The next day I figured I'd have to go through the process again, but the idea hit me - push on the boat and see what happens. It leaned over to the otherside. Nothing dramatic at all. (Whew!) My M23 is on an EZ Loader trailer. Kind of a pain to paint around all the rollers but I haven't had to pull out the jack. :) Randy On Wed, 19 Feb 1997, Randy Sommerfeld wrote: > Hey Randy > You commented about painting the bottom as nothing magical, all you need is > a couple of jacks under the keel.....My guess is that is true of the > M-15...but I think it may take a little magic and more than two jacks to get > the M-23 up off the trailer.... > > Rand > > ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: rc2222@pacbell.net Subject: Re: M_Boats: Looking for Tom W. Date: 19 Feb 1997 14:37:56 -0800 John Anastasio wrote: > > Tom Wilkensen from Chico, CA. I've lost your E-mail address. Drop me a > line ASAP or if anybody knows it could you pass it on. > Thanks. > > John Anastasio John: Tom's E Mail address is 71574.2614@compuserve.com. If you need more let me know. I understand he might be interested in your 17. Best of luck. Rich Cottrell ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: "Keith Diehl" Subject: M_Boats: Fw: Oars on M15 ? Date: 19 Feb 1997 17:13:01 -0700 This bounced to me for some reason so I'll just re-post it. I might comment on my rowing experiences two summers ago.... One evening I decided to sail rather than motor into the harbor and slip. Just as I entered the harbor, I caught a bad wind shift and found myself in irons and drifting towards the riprap. I quickly started the outboard and applied full throttle with no effect other than noise and smoke. It seems that the backstay tensioner is just the right length to wrap numerous times around the prop when bumped overboard. A paddle saved the day. Now the embarrassing part is that the very next night, having learned my lesson, I motored into the harbor and ran out of gas in the very same spot. Again the paddle saved the boat. My pride was less easily salvaged. ---------- > From: George Bunting > To: montgomery_boats-owner@xmission.com > Cc: gwb@netcom.com > Subject: Oars on M15 ? > Date: Wednesday, February 19, 1997 11:11 AM > > I have a small Johnson 4HP OB motor for SF & SD Bay sailing, > bit I'd really like to try rowing my M15 in typical light-wind > California lake conditions. > > I guess there are 2 possible ways to do this, by either 1) put- > ting oar locks on both sides of the cockpit. or 2) putting one > oarlock on the transom and sculling. Given the tall cockpit > coaming on the M15, it may not be possible to sit in the hatch- > way facing backward and row, but it might be possible to do so > while standing? > > Has anyone tried either of these alternate propulsion methods? > Is rowing or sculling practical on this boat and, if so, how > did you mount the oar lock(s) and determine the length of the > oar(s). Any problems w 2-piece oars that stow in the cabin? > > Thanks, > George > gwb@netcom.com ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: Randy Sommerfeld Subject: Re: M_Boats: Re: nothing magical??? Date: 19 Feb 1997 19:52:14 -0600 (CST) Hey Randy...surviving the Winter? That is how I did my M 17 this past year...Had it balanced about 2 inches off the trailer supports...using two jacks (and a little magic) Ordered some new stuff from West Marine last night....yes the Winter is beginning to fade... Had our first Regatta planning meeting last week..also a positive sign that Winter is fading away....so far we are planning to have two races, morning a fun run and afternoon using Handicapped ratings...one of the guys has been talking with Russell Bauer and the Dave or is Rick West from Bloomer and they indiciaated that they would help...may have a Hobie (that one that rises on the spontoons) from High Temple out of Minneapolis for a display take care Rand PS got the MON from Terry today....the Midwest Lake Pepin Rendezvous has me listed as having an M15...well Terry and Thurman must have had a memory lapse of the M-17 "No Worries" sailing circles around their boats all afternoon. ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: "Tom T. Wilkinson" <71574.2614@CompuServe.COM> Subject: M_Boats: Arizona dealer Date: 19 Feb 1997 22:48:51 EST Does anyone know the name of the boat dealer in Arizona that sold Montgomerys? I think it may have been in Tucson. Tom ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: John Anastasio Subject: Re: M_Boats: Looking for Tom W. Date: 19 Feb 1997 21:33:22 -0800 rc2222@pacbell.net wrote: > > John Anastasio wrote: > > > > Tom Wilkensen from Chico, CA. I've lost your E-mail address. Drop me a > > line ASAP or if anybody knows it could you pass it on. > > Thanks. > > > > John Anastasio > > John: > > Tom's E Mail address is 71574.2614@compuserve.com. If you > need more let me know. I understand he might be interested > in your 17. Best of luck. > Rich Cottrell Thanks Rich, Actually it is to tell him that I think I have the boat sold, but it will still be in the family. ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: Saltm17@aol.com Subject: Re: M_Boats: Arizona dealer Date: 20 Feb 1997 09:11:53 -0500 (EST) Tom, The dealer's name in Tucson was Tom Van Atta. I understand he retired. John Misty M17 #372 ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: "Jim Daly" Subject: Re: M_Boats: Arizona dealer Date: 20 Feb 1997 07:36:06 -0700 The Sailboat Shop in Tempe does deal in used Montgomeries. They just sold an M17, 1977, and hava a flat-top 77 M17 for sale for $5000. Jim Daly ---------- > From: Tom T. Wilkinson <71574.2614@CompuServe.COM> > To: all > Subject: M_Boats: Arizona dealer > Date: Wednesday, February 19, 1997 8:48 PM > > Does anyone know the name of the boat dealer in Arizona that sold Montgomerys? > I think it may have been in Tucson. > Tom > ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: TOM_JANSTROM@HP-Boise-om2.om.hp.com Subject: Re: M_Boats: Arizona dealer Date: 20 Feb 1997 09:18:21 -0700 Item Subject: M_Boats: Arizona dealer "Ship's Store" Prop: Tom van Atta ______________________________ Reply Separator _________________________________ Author: Non-HP-71574.2614 (71574.2614@compuserve.com) at hp-boise,shargw5 Does anyone know the name of the boat dealer in Arizona that sold Montgomerys? I think it may have been in Tucson. Tom ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: Randolph I Palmer Subject: Re: M_Boats: Re: nothing magical??? Date: 20 Feb 1997 16:02:17 -0600 (CST) On Wed, 19 Feb 1997, Randy Sommerfeld wrote: > Hey Randy...surviving the Winter? > I'm suffering from cabin fever. Just about had the tarp off the M23 on Tues. (heat wave - almost 50 degrees!) to sit in the cocpit and dream of sailing over the horizon. My wife had other plans for me, however... > Had our first Regatta planning meeting last week..also a positive sign that > Winter is fading away....so far we are planning to have two races, morning a > fun run and afternoon using Handicapped ratings...one of the guys has been > talking with Russell Bauer and the Dave or is Rick West from Bloomer and > they indiciaated that they would help... Dave West is very serious about his racing - he owned 2 Melges 24's at one time for a while. Warning: Don't let him take the FUN out of your event. We all have different ideas of what that is - just have you group set the agenda (not Dave). > > take care > > Rand > > PS got the MON from Terry today....the Midwest Lake Pepin Rendezvous has me > listed as having an M15...well Terry and Thurman must have had a memory > lapse of the M-17 "No Worries" sailing circles around their boats all afternoon. > I think they have our boats confused. Either that or they're "Worried" about you coming back and showing them up again this year! Speaking of Pepin, I'm considering moving our M23 there for the summer. Randy P.> ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: tinnin@bga.com (NathanTinnin) Subject: Re: M_Boats: Arizona dealer Date: 20 Feb 1997 19:27:43 -0600 There was a sailboat shop in Tucson that sold Montgomerys (ies?). I can't remember the name right now, but in May he has two 17s and a 15 for sail. I'll call my brother and get the name and number. >Does anyone know the name of the boat dealer in Arizona that sold Montgomerys? >I think it may have been in Tucson. >Tom > > > Nathan Tinnin tinnin@bga.com ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: Randy Graves Subject: M_Boats: Stern Rail, M-15 Date: 21 Feb 1997 06:59:33 -0700 Has anyone installed a stern rail on their M-15? If so, what type, where = did you find it, etc. I saw a stern rail set-up on a Capri 18 that I = though would work well on the M-15. It is not a full rail across the = transom, but rather just in the corners, leaving the stern open across = the back and allowing good access to the motor and rudder. It has the = option to run lines across the stern between the corner rails, if = needed. =20 Has anyone else seen this? What do you think? =20 Would an M-15 need more than one stanchion on each side? =20 E-mailed West Marine for info. They told me they do not deal in this = sort of stuff, and they referred me to a custom shop in the San = Francisco area. It seems like this should be a fairly common item to = acquire, if I just new where to look. Thanks, Randy G. Idaho Falls, ID ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: rc2222@pacbell.net Subject: Re: M_Boats: Stern Rail, M-15 Date: 21 Feb 1997 07:58:03 -0800 Randy Graves wrote: > > Has anyone installed a stern rail on their M-15? If so, what type, where did you find it, etc. I saw a stern rail set-up on a Capri 18 that I though would wor > > Has anyone else seen this? What do you think? > > Would an M-15 need more than one stanchion on each side? > > E-mailed West Marine for info. They told me they do not deal in this sort of stuff, and they referred me to a custom shop in the San Francisco area. It seems l > > Thanks, > Randy G. > Idaho Falls, ID The Compac 16XL has a similar stern rail which might work on the 15. I was out in San Francisco Bay yesterday and tried to take a leak over the stern without a rail and almost fell in. I'm also in the market for a stern rail. Rich-Really ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: Stanley Townsend Subject: M_Boats: Leak Date: 21 Feb 1997 09:47:30 -0800 Speaking of taking a leak over the side... I've tried several postures for this maneuver - none of them very graceful, and none of them offering assurance that M15 "Freya" will not get dribbled on. After much too long, it finally dawned on me to use my little bailing bucket as an intermediary. I can accomplish the bodily function rather inconspicuously, even with boats around, and then rinse the bucket over the side. -- townsend@pacific.net (Stanley Townsend - M15 "Freya") ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: Peter Balcziunas Subject: Re: M_Boats: Stern Rail, M-15 Date: 21 Feb 1997 14:00:19 -0500 (EST) The Coast Guard reports that more than half of the drowning victims (mostly fishermen) it recovers have a relatively high blood alcohol content and open flys! Buy a rail before you are confused with a fisherman...... On Fri, 21 Feb 1997 rc2222@pacbell.net wrote: > Randy Graves wrote: > > > > Has anyone installed a stern rail on their M-15? If so, what type, where did you find it, etc. I saw a stern rail set-up on a Capri 18 that > I though would wor > > > > Has anyone else seen this? What do you think? > > > > Would an M-15 need more than one stanchion on each side? > > > > E-mailed West Marine for info. They told me they do not deal in this sort of stuff, and they referred me to a custom shop in the San Francisco > area. It seems l > > > > Thanks, > > Randy G. > > Idaho Falls, ID > > > The Compac 16XL has a similar stern rail which might work on the 15. > > I was out in San Francisco Bay yesterday and tried to take a leak > over the stern without a rail and almost fell in. > > I'm also in the market for a stern rail. > > Rich-Really > ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: Peter Balcziunas Subject: Re: M_Boats: Leak Date: 21 Feb 1997 14:18:36 -0500 (EST) Many well-stocked chandleries discreetly stock such receptacles designed specifically for the differing anatomical needs of men and women, tho' I've sometimes considered using balloons and using these to deal with jetskiers! pjb On Fri, 21 Feb 1997, Stanley Townsend wrote: > Speaking of taking a leak over the side... > > I've tried several postures for this maneuver - none of them very > graceful, and none of them offering assurance that M15 "Freya" will not > get dribbled on. After much too long, it finally dawned on me to use my > little bailing bucket as an intermediary. I can accomplish the bodily > function rather inconspicuously, even with boats around, and then rinse > the bucket over the side. > > -- > townsend@pacific.net (Stanley Townsend - M15 "Freya") > ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: Wilsometer@aol.com Subject: Re: M_Boats: Leak Date: 21 Feb 1997 14:36:16 -0500 (EST) Stan: I think the Coast Gaurd should offer an exemption for waste disposed of in this very sensible manner!! Scott Grometer, M15 #478 ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: Wilsometer@aol.com Subject: Re: M_Boats: Rail, M-15 Date: 21 Feb 1997 15:05:27 -0500 (EST) Randy: While looking for my M15, I saw a number of different incarnations of stern rails. I saw one that had the corner setup you mentioned plus one stanchion per side. There were a great many stress cracks in the gel coat, and the corner rails flopped around a great deal. I still have a photograph that shows this detail. It also was quite ugly. I did see a photograph of an improved version of this in the Montgomery Owners Newsletter (Winter 1996, page 2). The boat is an M17 owned by Mary Ratz. She opted for reduced height bars on the after section, lending support to the higher corner bars. Check it out! My favorite, and likely what I will use as a pattern for mine, is Bert Felton's. His is a continuous full height design with one stanchion per side (see MOL, winter 1995, page 6 and winter 1996, page 1). It was fabricated by Svendsen's in Alameda CA, and seems to work well functionally and aesthetically. It is also much more rigid than the broken designs I've seen. I am trying to figure a way to integrate a boarding ladder with this design. I did see another variation on this theme (Don Oliver's M15, I believe) that had the bars going farther forward on the cockpit coaming (point at which the lifelines connect) I did not think this as good a design as Bert's, which allows the lifelines to be dropped to a lower set of eyes for hiking or ease of boarding on/across the majority of the cockpit coaming. Anyway, you may wish to solicit Bert's opinion directly. Scott Grometer, M15 #478 ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: Randy Graves Subject: RE: M_Boats: Rail, M-15 Date: 21 Feb 1997 15:35:07 -0700 Scott, Thank You for your insightful reply, I will go back and take a look at = the past Montgomery Owners News letters for the details you mentioned. Bert, can you add to Scott's comments? Thanks, Randy G. M15 #408 ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: Mont15@aol.com Subject: Re: RE: M_Boats: Rail, M-15 Date: 21 Feb 1997 19:51:37 -0500 (EST) Randy, the custom stern puplit and stanchions were made by Svendsens. They are shorter than stock and work very well. I would use the same design if I were starting over. The port and starboard stanchions are are canted outboard. The stern rail sides on port and starboard are slightly so. The canting allows me to move without obstructions along the side decks. The installation not only adds tremendous safety, but also allows you to put up a boom tent with more head clearance. The top of the cover goes over the lifelines. You also gain additonal storage on which to hang things at anchor. I have not trouble climbing aboard, and I can easily start and get to my outboard. Actually, I have something to grab onto when I fill my engine's fuel tank. If you have any other questions, just ask. Bert ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: becker-r@postoffice.worldnet.att.net (Robert Becker) Subject: M_Boats: stern rails Date: 22 Feb 1997 05:14:41 +0000 Randy, I have been interested in adding a stern rail to my M15 and looked at Berts, which has a full rail across the transom. Your suggestions sounds good, but I wonder if having just the corners would be sturdy enough. I checked with Svendsons (a local boat shop) and they quoted me $750 for the bow pulpit and full stern rails, modeled after Berts, with a $50 discount each if another boat was done at the same time. This would save them time and labor for the setup jig. They may also have to cut access holes in the transom, otherwise they will just screw in the rails and stanchions. I would opt for bolted fixtures, even if it added to the cost. I climb into my boat by standing on the trailer fender, then throwing a leg up and hoisting myself in. Stanchions would get in the way of this maneuver, but I could always carry a small step ladder, which Bert does. I also install the rudder after the boat is in the water, and the rail would complicate that maneuver. I tried installing the rudder before launching, but I hit a bump once and it dropped; the damage was not severe, but I think I was lucky. Svendsens said you will not find any of this as a stock item, since the angle of the base plate has to be custom fitted to the boat. I would like to try for a group discount if anyone else is interested. FWIW. Today I sailed out of Berkeley and had a great time. My passenger had a hand held GPS that registered our speed at 5 knots on a port tack in estimated 20 mph winds and a favorable ebb tide. I was impressed until I saw it had our location at 28 feet below sea level. (I assume the sea level reading reflected the selective availability of the system) Bob ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: slyingst@sonic.net (Stephen Yingst) Subject: Re: M_Boats: Big Fun Date: 21 Feb 1997 21:50:55 -0800 I just wanted to check in and say that I'm now an official member of the Montgomery Owners Group. I've been watching from the sidelines of this list for the past three months, but I just took delivery today of John Anastasio's M-17. "Flight" will be living on the edge of the San Francisco Bay beginning tomorrow. See you on the bay. I am seriously stoked. Fair winds. "He was born with the gift of laughter and a sense that the world was mad." ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: Wilsometer@aol.com Subject: Re: M_Boats: stern rails Date: 22 Feb 1997 01:11:06 -0500 (EST) Bob: Do you recall how the $750 cost was split? I do not need the bow pulpit, but am interested in the stern "pushpit" and the stanchions. Did the price include lifelines? I may wish to modify the design somewhat to accommodate an integrated boarding ladder, though I hope to use the same general pattern. As for the GPS readings, I messed around with a Garmin GPS while in British Columbia last summer. I too noticed bizarre readings for elevation/altitude. The variations were usually within the 10'-15' range. I also noticed that the speed over ground seemed to be remarkably accurate as long as I held a reasonably straight course. I noticed that the compass heading function also lagged a bit during course changes. I am not sure if this is because of selective availability, or if the triangulation is just that slow. Scott Grometer, M15 #478 ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: Wilsometer@aol.com Subject: M_Boats: Inspect Your Valve Stems!! Date: 22 Feb 1997 01:21:54 -0500 (EST) Just remembered something that I wanted to share with the list. Last summer, while trailing my M15 home from Colorado, I blew a tire. Actually, it was not a tire at all, but a valve stem that had seen a little too much UV. If you store your boat outside, you might want to inspect/give a tug on yours before setting out on that first Spring trip!! They are cheap to replace, and you may save a tire by doing so (my tire was a bit chewed up by the time I could safely pull over). One could fabricate tire covers out of Sunbrella to protect both the tires and valve stems from the ravages of the sun. Happy Trails, Scott Grometer ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: Wilsometer@aol.com Subject: Re: M_Boats: Congratulations, Big Fun! Date: 22 Feb 1997 01:24:38 -0500 (EST) Congratulations Stephen! You have a beautiful boat!! Scott ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: rc2222@pacbell.net Subject: M_Boats: Stern rails Date: 22 Feb 1997 10:11:53 -0800 Bob: I'd be very interested in participating in a group discount for full stern rail and stanchions (similar to Kokopelli) at Svendsons. I have a bow pulpet. Thank's for the info. Rich ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: becker-r@postoffice.worldnet.att.net (Robert Becker) Subject: M_Boats: rails, gps, and welcome Date: 22 Feb 1997 17:10:28 +0000 Scott, I do not recall how the pulpit/pushpit cost was split or if it included lifelines, but the job price was the lowest by far of the 3 Alameda area shops I checked. RE the GPS, we also had confused readings for compass headings for the "return to start" bearing, which seemed like a software glich. Other compass readings were ok, and indicated my Ritchie magnetic needed a correction of 3 to 4 degrees. The speed readings appeared reasonable, typically sequential readings being 4.8, 5.0, 5.1, 4.9,... Stephen, Welcome to the bay. I will watch for you from my M15 with the rainbow sails. Bob ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: "Keith Diehl" Subject: Re: M_Boats: stern rails Date: 22 Feb 1997 15:41:55 -0700 Of all the wonderful things GPS does, elevation is not one of them. Speed should be fairly accurate if you're traveling faster than 2-3 mph. (To ensure the error introduced by SA is small with respect to your true velocity.) They _are_ great fun to play with. ---------- > From: Robert Becker > FWIW. Today I sailed out of Berkeley and had a great time. My passenger > had a hand held GPS that registered our speed at 5 knots on a port tack in > estimated 20 mph winds and a favorable ebb tide. I was impressed until I > saw it had our location at 28 feet below sea level. (I assume the sea > level reading reflected the selective availability of the system) ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: Randy Graves Subject: RE: M_Boats: rails, gps, and welcome Date: 22 Feb 1997 16:35:42 -0700 Bob, Scott, I too already have a nice bow pulpit, but would be interested in the = cost of just the stern arrangement, stanchions and life lines. From the = input I have received, it sounds like the full rails across the back has = advantage over corner rails.=20 As I live in Idaho, I would most likely need to have the parts shipped = and install them myself. If you happen to hear more, please forward the = info on. Thank You, Randy G. ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: Randolph I Palmer Subject: RE: M_Boats: rails Date: 23 Feb 1997 10:30:18 -0600 (CST) The Bow pulpit on my M15 was made by Railmakers (as I recall - of Long Beach, CA. I can go look up the phone number if anyone is interested). I bought a swim ladder from them for my Starwind 19 a number of years ago (it was really nice - may work on M17's). Seeing that they built the Bow Pulpit I wonder if they may have plans for a stern rail for the M15's. . Might be worth a call. Randy P. ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: Randy Graves Subject: M_Boats: Add to the LIST Date: 23 Feb 1997 10:14:10 -0700 Please add my brother to the Montgomery List, his e-mail address is: bnj@juno.com Thank You! ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: becker-r@postoffice.worldnet.att.net (Robert Becker) Subject: M_Boats: rails Date: 23 Feb 1997 19:37:14 +0000 I will check with Svendsens on Monday and check on prices again for the stern rail and stanchions and see what deal can be made. In addition, if Randy Palmer can find and forward the number or address of Railmakers, I will also contact them. Bob ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: sethm@adfg.state.ak.us (Seth Macinko) Subject: M_Boats: motors and oars Date: 23 Feb 1997 13:40:33 -0700 (MST) Hi all, I'm contemplating replacing the 1983 Evinrude 2 HP that came with my M-15 when I bought it. Anybody got any particularly favorite power plants? Awhile back there was some exchange on the list about Honda outboards and I'd like to hear from folks how they are working out. One question I have is short vs long shaft. My short shaft sometimes causes the prop to leave the water in "rough" seas but having seen in the news letter how folks have to adapt (raise) the standard motor mount to accommodate a long shaft I wonder if you gain that much. A second question is a reiteration of a previous post: Somebody asked about ideas for mounting oars on the Ms but I don't recall seeing any replies. How 'bout it? Dick Allgire if you're still on here didn't I recall you sculling your M-17? How does that work for you and how did you set it up (oar length and oarlock mount)? Seth M-15 #200 ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: rc2222@pacbell.net Subject: Re: M_Boats: What bottom paint? Help! Date: 23 Feb 1997 16:10:16 -0800 J Townley wrote: > > I've left my boat in SF several summers; and didn't want to put bottom > paint on the boat (but didn't want tons of stuff on the bottom of the > boat either!) I ended up putting a substance from West Marine (not > their brand - I'll have to get that for you) on the bottom; it worked > great; about the consistency of bee's wax; you wipe it on; and if and > when you want to take it off; use some thinner and elbow grease and you > have a clean bottom and no bottom paint. Jay Jay: I'd greatly appreciate knowing the brand name of the bees wax substance. Thank's. Rich ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: Randolph I Palmer Subject: Re: M_Boats: rails Date: 23 Feb 1997 20:17:47 -0600 (CST) Bob, I did a quick Net Search and came up with an address for Railmakers. It is 816 W. 18th St., Costa Mesa, CA 92627 phone: 714-642-6506. This sounds like it was near Montg. Marine's location in Costa Mesa which would explain their pulpits being on the M_Boats. When I got my swim ladder from them they said they were not a retail operation but they would sell to me anyway. It is worth a try to see what they would charge and if they have patterns for the M_Boat sterns. Please let us know what you find out. Randy P. On Sun, 23 Feb 1997, Robert Becker wrote: > I will check with Svendsens on Monday and check on prices again for the > stern rail and stanchions and see what deal can be made. In addition, if > Randy Palmer can find and forward the number or address of Railmakers, I > will also contact them. > > Bob > > > ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: Harvey Wilson <102072.2315@CompuServe.COM> Subject: M_Boats: Bow Rails Date: 23 Feb 1997 21:47:58 EST Rich was lamenting about almost falling in while talking a leak over the stern....why not heave to and use the bow pulpit when answering the call of Nature ?? Harbey/ Atl....G M-17 Stargazer #294 ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: becker-r@postoffice.worldnet.att.net (Robert Becker) Subject: Re: M_Boats: rails Date: 24 Feb 1997 03:13:19 +0000 Thanks Randy, I will call them. Bob ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: jgtown@ix.netcom.com (J Townley) Subject: Re: M_Boats: What bottom paint? Help! Date: 23 Feb 1997 22:59:55 -0600 (CST) You wrote: > >J Townley wrote: >> >> I've left my boat in SF several summers; and didn't want to put bottom >> paint on the boat (but didn't want tons of stuff on the bottom of the >> boat either!) I ended up putting a substance from West Marine (not >> their brand - I'll have to get that for you) on the bottom; it worked >> great; about the consistency of bee's wax; you wipe it on; and if and >> when you want to take it off; use some thinner and elbow grease and you >> have a clean bottom and no bottom paint. Jay Jay: > I'd greatly appreciate knowing the brand name of the bees wax >substance. Thank's. > Rich > SUPER SLICK MADE BY ADVANTECH INTERNATIONAL, INC., 19640 HARPER AVE, GROSSE POINTE, MI 48236 "...A HIGHLY WATERPROOF WAX USED ON ...BOATS TO INHIBIT THE ADHESION OF ALGAE AND MARINE GROWTH." ...."CAN BE REMMOVED WITH MINERAL SPIRITS." Good luck. Jay ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: jcrewser@juno.com (John S. Crews) Subject: M_Boats: 2-cycle fuel in car, etc. Date: 24 Feb 1997 00:19:34 EST Question: What would be the likely consequences of burning say 10% 50-to-1 2-cycle mix in a standard automobile engine? I have recently learned from experience how important it is to use fresh fuel mix in small outboards. Trouble is, they use so little fuel that I end up storing it for months. This would be a way to get rid of it. Any comments or leads would be appreciated. Question: The rubber fuel primer bulb on my outboard tank recently dissolved. This had worked fine for 20 years. Could the newly formulated oxygenated California gasolines have done this? Question: I'm having trouble with water in my inboard C27 fuel tank. It must be condensing from the vapor space. I put in a bottle of stuff, probably alcohol, that was supposed to remove it, but without success. I finally had to siphon the water out. What works in this circumstance? Thanks. John Stephan Crews ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: Joe Kidd Subject: Re: M_Boats: Bow Rails Date: 23 Feb 1997 22:00:18 -0800 At 09:47 PM 2/23/97 EST, you wrote: >Rich was lamenting about almost falling in while talking a leak over the >stern....why not heave to and use the bow pulpit when answering the call of >Nature ?? > >Harbey/ Atl....G > >M-17 Stargazer #294 > > Fellows, I've got a simpler solution. Spend some time in the hospital and they let you take the cute little plastic urinals home with you. They work great in my sailboat, my fishing boat, and even my canoe... Very safe, very private, very convenient.. Joe Kidd M-15 No. 207 "Poco A Poco" ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: Wilsometer@aol.com Subject: Re: M_Boats: 2-cycle fuel in car, etc. Date: 24 Feb 1997 02:58:27 -0500 (EST) In a message dated 2/24/97 5:29:18 AM, you wrote: <> John: This question may have a different answer depending on the type/vintage of your vehicle. In the "bad old days", people often dumped small quantities of oil/gas mix in their tanks with little or no harmful effect. Before catalysts, feedback control carburetors, electronic fuel injection, oxygen sensors, etc., etc., the worst that would likely occur (assuming small concentrations), was some mild fowling of plugs, and maybe a little gumming of the carburetor. Learning what I have about modern fuel injected engines, especially those employing catalysts and oxygen sensors, I would *not* recommend adding any oil mix whatsoever to the tank of vehicles with such engines. It takes very small changes in the combustion by-products (O2, CO, CO, NO2) to make your O2 sensor adjust the mixture. Depending on the reading, the sensor will demand a leaner or richer mixture to compensate. Both can be damaging, if not catastrophic in effect. If it orders a richer mixture than is actually called for, the catalyst may be plugged. Suffice it to say that a new catalyst installed will usually cost as much or more than a nice Honda four stroke outboard (burns straight gas!!). If the sensor orders a leaner mixture than otherwise called for, you run the risk of overheating, burning valves, blowing head gaskets, etc. Not a state to be desired. Finally, if you live in California, Colorado, or one of the other states with tough (and I might argue, necessary) smog control programs, you run the risk of screwing up already sensitive equipment that *will* cost a great deal to repair or replace. In California, you might get thrown into the "Gross Polluter" category. Need I say more? Actually I will say a little more. A friend accidently filled his 30 gallon tank with about five gallons of diesel. He then decided the best thing to do was to top it up with gas and drive it out. It smoked a lot, I changed the plugs, cleaned some sensors, and everything was just fine, or so we thought. Last year it was smog check time. Would you believe he flunked. Seems he needed a new catalyst. Good news: they were available. Bad news: Big truck, big pipes, big catalyst, $1,400. I'd stick with straight gas. Also: it is a good idea not to mix more oil/gas than you can/will use in a three week period. Weird chemistry kicks in hereafter, and the net result can be ring-scuff in your cylinder walls. Best to run your carb dry by closing the fuel valve and run 'till it dies. This prevents varnishing of the carb. You can then dump (in an environmentally sensitive manner!) the unused mix and find creative uses for it! I've known people to offer it to others at boat ramps/harbors! <> Could have, but I've seen those bulbs deteriorate in less time before the new formulation. In fact, twenty years may be a new record! <> Keeping the tank topped up will reduce this tenancy. There are in line filters/water separators that will aid in removing water, but you have to be diligent about checking/draining the bowl. I have installed a number of these in diesel applications with great results. I am partial to those made by Racor, largely because the parts and filter elements are readily available. Check the West Marine catalog "powerboat" section. I'll shut up now. Scott Grometer P.S.: I hope I don't sound arrogant or cocky. I encountered a lot of the above scenarios during a three year stint as marine engine mechanic. ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: Randy Graves Subject: RE: M_Boats: motors and oars Date: 24 Feb 1997 06:57:30 -0700 Seth, I have a 4 hp Yamaha on our M-15, and am very pleased! In shopping for = motors, I found you had to get to a certain hp size before you would get = forward-neutral-reverse . The Yamaha has been excellent! Randy G. ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: Randolph I Palmer Subject: Re: M_Boats: 2-cycle fuel in car, etc. Date: 24 Feb 1997 08:14:10 -0600 (CST) Hi John S. On Mon, 24 Feb 1997, John S. Crews wrote: > Question: What would be the likely consequences of burning say 10% > 50-to-1 2-cycle mix in a standard automobile engine? I have recently > learned from experience how important it is to use fresh fuel mix in > small outboards. Trouble is, they use so little fuel that I end up > storing it for months. This would be a way to get rid of it. Any > comments or leads would be appreciated. If you have a vehicle without a catalitic converter it will work fine. A converter will get dangerously hot if you burn it that way. I use my old gas in my four cycle lawn mower and snow blower engines. THe snow blower didn't like the last batch for some reason, however. > Question: The rubber fuel primer bulb on my outboard tank recently > dissolved. This had worked fine for 20 years. Could the newly > formulated oxygenated California gasolines have done this? Very likely if the new gas has any ethanol in it that is the cause. Where I work, we started using ethanol gas a couple of years ago. It virtually destroyed the fuel systems in all the small engines (both 2 and 4 cycle). We ended up installing a tank of regular unleaded for small engines and carbureted vehicles. The ethanol eats the rubber up causing it do deform in many grotesque ways. I've heard may complaints about the oxygenated gas from the Milwaukee area, where the EPA has required it. Many residents drive out of the restricited area to fuel up now. Maybe you need to find a source of 'contraban' gasoline in California. Randy P. ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: brinefly@soft-link.com (Dick Allgire) Subject: Re: M_Boats: motors and oars Date: 24 Feb 1997 08:14:12 -0700 >Hi all, > >I'm contemplating replacing the 1983 Evinrude 2 HP that came with my M-15 >when I bought it. Anybody got any particularly favorite power plants? Awhile >back there was some exchange on the list about Honda outboards and I'd like >to hear from folks how they are working out. One question I have is short vs >long shaft. My short shaft sometimes causes the prop to leave the water in >"rough" seas but having seen in the news letter how folks have to adapt >(raise) the standard motor mount to accommodate a long shaft I wonder if you >gain that much. > >A second question is a reiteration of a previous post: Somebody asked about >ideas for mounting oars on the Ms but I don't recall seeing any replies. How >'bout it? Dick Allgire if you're still on here didn't I recall you sculling >your M-17? How does that work for you and how did you set it up (oar length >and oarlock mount)? > >Seth >M-15 #200 I don't use an oar for sculling.......use the rudder...just pump your tillerr back and forth and yuou will move. I do that with the 17 . Very useful if your motor fails in a tight spot.....you don't have time to look for an aor or try to start the motor or raise a sail.....Surely many others hav3 done this. Dick A. If I listen, I have the advantage. If I speak, the others have it. ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: "Keith Diehl" Subject: Re: M_Boats: 2-cycle fuel in car, etc. Date: 24 Feb 1997 08:16:22 -0700 That's how I routinely get rid of the end-of-year gas that's left over. I wait until the car tank is nearly empty, pour in a gallon of the old stuff, then drive to the corner and fill the tank. I've never had a problem.....but I do drive a company car! ---------- > From: John S. Crews > Question: What would be the likely consequences of burning say 10% > 50-to-1 2-cycle mix in a standard automobile engine? ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: brinefly@soft-link.com (Dick Allgire) Subject: Re: M_Boats: Bow Rails Date: 24 Feb 1997 08:27:32 -0700 >Rich was lamenting about almost falling in while talking a leak over the >stern....why not heave to and use the bow pulpit when answering the call of >Nature ?? Yeah, but don't forget the "blow back" factor. > >Harbey/ Atl....G > >M-17 Stargazer #294 If I listen, I have the advantage. If I speak, the others have it. ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: brinefly@soft-link.com (Dick Allgire) Subject: Re: M_Boats: Bow Rails Date: 24 Feb 1997 08:29:37 -0700 >At 09:47 PM 2/23/97 EST, you wrote: >>Rich was lamenting about almost falling in while talking a leak over the >>stern....why not heave to and use the bow pulpit when answering the call of >>Nature ?? >> >>Harbey/ Atl....G >> >>M-17 Stargazer #294 >> >> >Fellows, I've got a simpler solution. Spend some time in the hospital and >they let you take the cute little plastic urinals home with you. They work >great in my sailboat, my fishing boat, and even my canoe... Very safe, very >private, very convenient.. > Joe Kidd M-15 No. 207 "Poco A Poco" Right on...keep one for the ladies too. If I listen, I have the advantage. If I speak, the others have it. ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: Peter Balcziunas Subject: Re: M_Boats: Bow Rails Date: 24 Feb 1997 10:32:34 -0500 (EST) Never, never INTO the wind, Harvey. On 23 Feb 1997, Harvey Wilson wrote: > Rich was lamenting about almost falling in while talking a leak over the > stern....why not heave to and use the bow pulpit when answering the call of > Nature ?? > > Harbey/ Atl....G > > M-17 Stargazer #294 > ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: TOM_JANSTROM@HP-Boise-om2.om.hp.com Subject: Re: M_Boats: 2-cycle fuel in car, etc. Date: 24 Feb 1997 10:16:49 -0700 Ditto Mr. Grometer's points regarding the use of oil/gas mix in modern fuel injection systems. However, one should not run out the gas in a 2-stroke engine's carb. Where do you think its lube oil comes from? Note, too, that the practice is specifically disallowed by OMC service manuals. Drain the carb manually. TJ ______________________________ Reply Separator _________________________________ Author: Non-HP-Wilsometer (Wilsometer@aol.com) at hp-boise,shargw5 In a message dated 2/24/97 5:29:18 AM, you wrote: <> John: This question may have a different answer depending on the type/vintage of your vehicle. In the "bad old days", people often dumped small quantities of oil/gas mix in their tanks with little or no harmful effect. Before catalysts, feedback control carburetors, electronic fuel injection, oxygen sensors, etc., etc., the worst that would likely occur (assuming small concentrations), was some mild fowling of plugs, and maybe a little gumming of the carburetor. Learning what I have about modern fuel injected engines, especially those employing catalysts and oxygen sensors, I would *not* recommend adding any oil mix whatsoever to the tank of vehicles with such engines. It takes very small changes in the combustion by-products (O2, CO, CO, NO2) to make your O2 sensor adjust the mixture. Depending on the reading, the sensor will demand a leaner or richer mixture to compensate. Both can be damaging, if not catastrophic in effect. If it orders a richer mixture than is actually called for, the catalyst may be plugged. Suffice it to say that a new catalyst installed will usually cost as much or more than a nice Honda four stroke outboard (burns straight gas!!). If the sensor orders a leaner mixture than otherwise called for, you run the risk of overheating, burning valves, blowing head gaskets, etc. Not a state to be desired. Finally, if you live in California, Colorado, or one of the other states with tough (and I might argue, necessary) smog control programs, you run the risk of screwing up already sensitive equipment that *will* cost a great deal to repair or replace. In California, you might get thrown into the "Gross Polluter" category. Need I say more? Actually I will say a little more. A friend accidently filled his 30 gallon tank with about five gallons of diesel. He then decided the best thing to do was to top it up with gas and drive it out. It smoked a lot, I changed the plugs, cleaned some sensors, and everything was just fine, or so we thought. Last year it was smog check time. Would you believe he flunked. Seems he needed a new catalyst. Good news: they were available. Bad news: Big truck, big pipes, big catalyst, $1,400. I'd stick with straight gas. Also: it is a good idea not to mix more oil/gas than you can/will use in a three week period. Weird chemistry kicks in hereafter, and the net result can be ring-scuff in your cylinder walls. Best to run your carb dry by closing the fuel valve and run 'till it dies. This prevents varnishing of the carb. You can then dump (in an environmentally sensitive manner!) the unused mix and find creative uses for it! I've known people to offer it to others at boat ramps/harbors! <> Could have, but I've seen those bulbs deteriorate in less time before the new formulation. In fact, twenty years may be a new record! <> Keeping the tank topped up will reduce this tenancy. There are in line filters/water separators that will aid in removing water, but you have to be diligent about checking/draining the bowl. I have installed a number of these in diesel applications with great results. I am partial to those made by Racor, largely because the parts and filter elements are readily available. Check the West Marine catalog "powerboat" section. I'll shut up now. Scott Grometer P.S.: I hope I don't sound arrogant or cocky. I encountered a lot of the above scenarios during a three year stint as marine engine mechanic. ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: Motomike@aol.com Subject: Re: M_Boats: Arizona dealer Date: 24 Feb 1997 12:30:25 -0500 (EST) I have a 1984 E-Z Loader trailer for my M-17 with a dealer sticker on it: Ship's Store, 5042 E. Speedway, Tucson, Arizona 85712. Phone: 602-795-4857. It has been at least four years since I contacted anyone there, so I am uncertain if this information is still good. I hope it helps. Regards to all, Mike. ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: Randolph I Palmer Subject: M_Boats: Montgomery Dingy "For Sale" (fwd) Date: 24 Feb 1997 21:31:55 -0600 (CST) >> Date: Jan 26, 1997 7:26 PM Message ID: 199701261926 >>> 1990 Montgomery 7'-11" Sailing Dingy Bought new from Ship's Store in Tucson in late 1994. The boat has only been sailed twice. I always thought I was a good sailor...then I bought a dingy. Rudder, tiller and centerboard (wood w/bronze fittings) were bought new in '95. The Sailing rig is also new, but came from a "Fatty Knees" 9' Sailing Dingy and is larger than the stock Montgomery...Great for light air! The sail logo is a red heart (Fatty Knees logo) so everyone thinks the dink is the much more expensive cousin to the Montgomery as both were Lyle Hess designs. >>>> My question: were the M_dinghies designed by Lyle Hess? If not Lyle then by whom? The Fatty Knees literature make it sound like they were his first (and obviously successful) attempt at a dinghy design. I understand the 7' FK's were designed to fit on the Falmouth 26 Cutters he designed. Randy P. ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: Mont15@aol.com Subject: M_Boats: cooking Date: 24 Feb 1997 22:46:39 -0500 (EST) How and wheredo you 15 owners cook on your boats? I've been trying to figure out a good way to do so. Any experiences from you would be appreciated. Bert ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: jcrewser@juno.com (John S. Crews) Subject: M_Boats: Run 2-cycle carb dry? Date: 25 Feb 1997 01:55:31 EST Proposition: 2-cycle carbs should not be run until dry before storage to prevent varnishing inside carb. Instead, drain the carb, if possible. Reasoning: Someone has reported that certain Owners' Manuals specifically prohibit running dry. (I haven't bothered to check mine, that's why I'm here.) My 4-hp Johnson Sailmaster was seazed up (not permanently) when I tried to restart it after having run it dry the last time I used it several weeks before. Conclusion: I will not run my 2-cycle outboard carbs dry. Action: Respond if you care to. John Stephan Crews ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: jcrewser@juno.com (John S. Crews) Subject: M_Boats: Never inhale gasoline again! Date: 25 Feb 1997 01:55:31 EST This is boating related. You know it is. How else are you going to get your old 2-cycle mix into your car's gas tank without making a mess? I saw something the other day that amazed me, and may even save my life. It could save your life too. I saw a guy siphon gas out of a tank as follows: Stick the siphon hose into the tank so that the end is well below the fluid level. Put your thumb over the end of the hose to form a good seal. Give a quick upward jerk on the hose, but not enough to pull the hose out of the fluid. At the end of the jerk, lift your thumb off the hose for the briefest fraction of a second. If you did it right, you have raised the fluid level in the hose several inches. Lower the hose into the tank as before and repeat the procedure. Each time, you raise the level in the hose higher. Eventually, you will feel the weight of the fluid up near your hand. Now, lower the hose to the tank you want to siphon the fluid into and take your thumb off. With a little practice you can do this in a matter of seconds with what looks like a shaking motion. By the way, don't ever siphon gasoline by sucking on the hose. If desperation absolutely forces you to start the siphon with your mouth, do it with your tongue and cheeks, like a baby sucking on a bottle, and not by inhaling. It could kill you to get gasoline in your throat and lungs. And I don't mean 30 years later. Your throat and lungs could inflame and constrict soo quickly that you suffocate. Wouldn't you like to see something this practical demonstrated in a Chevron TV commercial? John Stephan Crews ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: jcrewser@juno.com (John S. Crews) Subject: M_Boats: Summary re 2-cycle fuel in car Date: 25 Feb 1997 01:55:31 EST My conclusion after gratefully reading the numerous replies on this subject is that I will not burn any 2-cycle fuel in my cars (1987 Olds "88" and 1987 Dodge Colt) because I live in ecotopia (California) and therefore I live in fear. Fear of the consequences come smog-check time, which is every 2 years here. I also conclude that there is a reasonable possibility that there may be no negative consequences whatsoever, especially in older cars. I will be forced to find more creative ways of disposing of old fuel. Ahhhh, the joys of coercive utopianism! John Stephan Crews ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: Joe Kidd Subject: RE: M_Boats: motors and oars Date: 25 Feb 1997 15:53:56 -0800 At 06:57 AM 2/24/97 -0700, you wrote: >Seth, > >I have a 4 hp Yamaha on our M-15, and am very pleased! In shopping for motors, I found you had to get to a certain hp size before you would get forward-neutral-reverse . The Yamaha has been excellent! > >Randy G. > >I have a 4 hp Evenrude on my M-15. It runs well and is very reliable. When you get into engines with transmissions they tend to weigh more; yet, I wish it had the forward- neutral-reverse like Randy's, though. I think the weight trade-off would be worth it. Joe Kidd "Poco A Poco" ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: "Keith Diehl" Subject: Re: M_Boats: motors and oars Date: 25 Feb 1997 17:32:22 -0700 I've got a 3.5 hp Nissan outboard I bought through West Marine and I'm very pleased with it. It has forward and neutral, but the engine swivels 360 degrees so it has reverse by pointing the motor backwards. It's also light at 35 lbs. I've had it two years with no real problems to date. ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: slyingst@sonic.net (Stephen Yingst) Subject: Re: M_Boats: Rails Date: 25 Feb 1997 17:35:43 -0800 So...I had my first sail on SF Bay this past Sunday on my "new" M-17 "Flight." What an incredible boat. It was blowing 30 with gusts to 40; with one reef and the storm jib we moved right along without any major excitement (or even water in the cockpit). Hove to in the middle of the bay for lunch and she balanced beautifully. Thank you again, John, for a beautiful, well kept, boat. Speaking of rails. Has anyone had stern rails made up for the 17? Also...I'm looking for an economical spinnaker. Anyone know if the spinny from the Potter 19 will work (they're very well priced)? "He was born with the gift of laughter and a sense that the world was mad." ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: Randolph I Palmer Subject: RE: M_Boats: motors and oars (fwd) Date: 25 Feb 1997 21:12:52 -0600 (CST) > >I have a 4 hp Evenrude on my M-15. It runs well and is very reliable. When you get into engines with transmissions they tend to weigh more; yet, I wish it had the forward- neutral-reverse like Randy's, though. I think the weight trade-off would be worth it. Joe Kidd "Poco A Poco" I might as well put my 2 cents in. I bought a 3hp Johnson for my M15. The main reasons were it was two cylinder (I figured it would be quieter and smoother), it was water cooled (had a two horse air-cooled Evinrude on another boat - ran great but it was noisy), and it had a neutral and forward (no reverse). The price/weight/ features all added up. Jerry M. said a two horse would push the boat easily to hull speed. I ran across someone who had a M15 with one and he said the M15 was so slippery it would immediately zoom across the marina after he started it - even at idle. (I know what he's talking about) He said get one with a neutral position. I didn't feel (and still don't) that a four horse was necessary. The only thing I wished this had was a remote tank (maybe an arguement for the four). I had to refuel on the fly in strong winds while on Green Bay last summer. Tricky, but I didn't spill anything for the Zebra mussels to eat. Randy P. ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: becker-r@postoffice.worldnet.att.net (Robert Becker) Subject: M_Boats: M15 rails Date: 26 Feb 1997 03:17:48 +0000 Regarding rails for the M15's. The following is the quote I received from Carsten at Svendsen's Metal Works, 1851 Clement Av, Alameda, CA 94501. 510-522-2886. If 3 or more stern rails and stanchions are purchased at one time, the rear rail will cost $325 and the stanchions $55 each. Installation is extra. He will use 1" by 0.065 pipe (0.049 is about $1per foot cheaper). Feet will be 3 hole on the rails, 4 hole is available. Four hole feet are used on the stanchions, which are 18" high. This is a savings of about $50 per rail and $20 per stanchion. The rail will be modeled after Berts' KoKopelli. It will be about 18" high off the transom, 16" above the gunnels, single bar with two braces on the transom, with lifeline eyes. I think he would add other eyes for no charge. Lifelines are extra and their cost will vary with the fittings chosen. For example, 2 lifeline adjusters at $10 each and 2 pelican hooks at $20 each plus lifeline at $1 per foot for 12 feet. Using permanent fittings will save you $10 per side. They will make the lifelines for $60 per boat using pelican hooks. Installation depends on your boat. Cheapest is to use sheet metal screws, which he recommends and insists are more than adequate. Cost for the stern rail and stanchions is probably one hours labor at $70 per hour. If you want bolts in the stern rail side fittings, he needs access, which means cutting ports if you do not have them. Figure $30 per port and more labor. He quoted me $280 for two ports and bolted installation of stern rail, bow pulpit and stanchions. The transom braces are screwed in, with no other option. I am also getting a bow pulpit for $350. The pulpit is 20" high and extends 20" aft from the bow, has one brace, and will be modeled after Berts. My current thinking is to install them myself. I know bolting the bow pulpit and stanchions are no big deal, and I think I can handle the stern rail. I would like to know what others think of using screws vs bolts for the stern rail. Obviously, bolts are preferred, but are they worth the extra price and the addition of access panels, which will detract from the look of the cockpit. I still have the full stowage lockers in both seats and am reluctant to cut the bottom out of one side. Is a bottomless locker an overall advantage or disadvantage? Secondly, where to put the stanchions? Bert has them about 22" aft of the stays, which is about 4" forward of the cockpit. I think I would like them more forward, probably about 10" aft from the stays, which would make it easier to get into the boat while on the trailer. Suggestions? Does anyone else have rails other than 18" high? I think higher than that would detract from the look of the boat, but what about lower? How about a 20" pulpit and 16" stern rail? Suggestions? He needs a boat to setup from, and I am willing to leave mine there. I also called Railmakers, 816 W. 18th St, Costa Mesa, CA 92627, 714-642-6506, who originally made rails for Jerry. All he has is a pattern for the bow pulpit for the M17 and M23. He thinks this may fit the M15 and is willing to send measurements. The bow pulpit costs $350 plus shipping. They did not make stern pulpits because the transom is too narrow, only about 3/4 ". (I questioned this, but he is correct. There is a wider lip above the transom, but the really thick and solid part is fairly narrow. That is why the rear rail braces have to be screwed in. ok, there may be room for an outboard bolt, but you are probably better off with screws there.) Next, I talked with Ken at Railmakers, 1924 Willow, Alameda, CA 94501, 510-521-8966. He was a nice guy and knowledgeable, and agreed to meet Svendsen price. He suggested adding an angle iron to the forward end of the stern rail foot. This angle iron would run down the outboard side of the gunnel and add considerable strength. I prefer to go with the original bidder as opposed to someone who will meet a competitors price, but I like his idea of bracing the foot. That is the story, so far, on rails for the M15. Svendsens is booked for the next two or three weeks, but I would like to get this thing finalized. If you have questions or comments, fire away. Bert, is there anything you would change? There are pictures of KoKopellis' stern rail and stanchion placement in the MON, winter 1995, V1,N4, page 6. If you want rails, this is an opportune time to do it. I doubt if you can beat the price with an established craftsman. Let me know if you want in. I am going skiing Wed thre Fri, returning Sat, when I will respond to any queries. Bob ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: Harvey Wilson <102072.2315@CompuServe.COM> Subject: Re: M_Boats: Rails Date: 25 Feb 1997 22:27:52 EST Hi Steve.. Do you have the specs on the Potter 19 Spinnaker ?? I have the M-17 specs at the office, and will try to find them. Barring that, I could measure mine..it looks almost new. Then, you'll need a 7 1/2 foot spinnaker pole, spinnaker track on the mast, a halyard at the mast for the spinnaker and one for the pole (pole outhaul) and a pole downhaul on the deck. I bought a book "Spinnaker Handling" by Bent Aarre that seems to tell all, and the equipment makers (Forespar, etc) seem to have quite detailed illustrations in their catalogs. I seem to remember that West Marine has a web page that goes into detail in the West Advisor articals. I haven't flown the spinnaker yet...only had the boat since May...will be trying the 2 genoas that came with it this year...maybe the spinnaker later on. Harvey/Atl M-17 Stargazer #294 ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: "Jim Daly" Subject: M_Boats: location of M17 Date: 26 Feb 1997 12:05:10 -0700 Does anyone know the location of M17 - hull number 372? I had occasion to talk to the original owner and he was interested in what happened to his boat. JED James E. Daly Department of Mathematics University of Colorado Colorado Springs, CO 80933-7150 ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: Randolph I Palmer Subject: M_Boats: Rails, etc. Date: 27 Feb 1997 11:09:08 CST To M15 owners: I cut out a port on the starboard side of the footwell of our M15 to access the back corner of the boat. I bought a 4" Nicro cover for it. I've been able to install a light, a cleat and a swim ladder this way. Right behind the footwell there is only a small space (maybe the 3/4" that Bob mentioned) so rail supports in that area would be difficult. I'm still not sure if I want to go the rail, lifeline route at this point. (Keep talking) One thing that I should install, however, is an eyepad to attach safety harnesses to. Has anyone done this? Where did you put it (them)? Has anyone added hand rails along the companionway? My wife would like me to do so. She almost was catapulted into Jackson Lake (Wyo.) during a VERY sudden accidental gybe. She said she grappling for something to hang onto. I didn't have any problem, with tiller in hand. Even with small boats there are never ending projects, are there? Randy ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: Mont15@aol.com Subject: M_Boats: Is it working? Date: 27 Feb 1997 22:09:20 -0500 (EST) For some reason there has been no mail the last few days leading me to believe that something is either wrong with AOL or the system that we use. Bert ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: slyingst@sonic.net (Stephen Yingst) Subject: Re: M_Boats: Is it working? Date: 28 Feb 1997 06:30:09 -0800 Hi Bert...There were no list transmissions yesterday (2/27), but otherwise its been happening. I, too, was once an AOL subscriber. Welcome back. ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: "Keith Diehl" Subject: Re: M_Boats: Is it working? Date: 28 Feb 1997 14:02:13 -0700 Bert, check the archives and see if you've missed any messages. There has been quite a bit of traffic in the last few days. Has anyone else had a problem? ---------- > From: Mont15@aol.com > To: montgomery_boats@xmission.com > Subject: M_Boats: Is it working? > Date: Thursday, February 27, 1997 8:09 PM > > For some reason there has been no mail the last few days leading me to > believe that something is either wrong with AOL or the system that we use. > Bert ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: rc2222@pacbell.net Subject: M_Boats: swim ladder Date: 28 Feb 1997 14:52:06 -0800 I recently installed a small folding swim ladder permantly attached to the transom of my M15 by following the directions from an article in the Fall, 1996, M.O.N., by David Shough from Tucson, M15 # 107, "New Spirit". It worked and it was simple! The ladder was purchased from West Marine for $ 67. If you're considering adding a swim ladder and don't want to cut holes in the fibreglass-get a copy of this article. Thank you, David Shough! Rich ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: Harvey Wilson <102072.2315@CompuServe.COM> Subject: M_Boats: Potter 19 Spinnaker fr M-17 Date: 28 Feb 1997 22:22:28 EST Last week, a question was asked about using a Potter 19 spinnaker on a M-17. The P-19 spinnaker is 206 square feet and the M-17's spinnaker has 226 sq ft. The size of the M-17 spinnaker is luff and leach 21ft 1 1/2in (maybe 1 3/4?) and the foot is 11 ft 10 in. With all the other equipment needed to fly a kite, I'd get the spinnaker made for the M-17, unless the P-19's selling for a song. Have you considered an asymetrical spinnaker?? They're a lot easier to fly, and I've seen a seasoned sailor (and sailmaker) singlehand one at the St. Pete Sail Expo. Harvey/Atl M-17 Stargazer #294 ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: slyingst@sonic.net (Stephen Yingst) Subject: Re: M_Boats: Potter 19 Spinnaker fr M-17 Date: 28 Feb 1997 22:20:18 -0800 Thanks for the information, Harvey. I am looking into an asymetrical; does anyone have any good leads?