From: owner-n64-digest@lists.xmission.com (n64-digest) To: n64-digest@lists.xmission.com Subject: n64-digest V1 #1326 Reply-To: n64-digest Sender: owner-n64-digest@lists.xmission.com Errors-To: owner-n64-digest@lists.xmission.com Precedence: bulk n64-digest Saturday, August 12 2000 Volume 01 : Number 1326 Re: [N64] Pokemon violence? Re: [N64] Majora Re: [N64] Majora [N64] DVD PLayback (was Majora) Re: [N64] Majora Re: [N64] DVD PLayback (was Majora) Re: [N64] Majora Re: [N64] DVD PLayback (was Majora) Re: [N64] DVD PLayback (was Majora) Re: [N64] Majora Re: [N64] DVD PLayback (was Majora) ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Date: Fri, 11 Aug 2000 11:00:36 EDT From: Nutz4n64@aol.com Subject: Re: [N64] Pokemon violence? In a message dated 08/10/2000 11:26:59 PM Pacific Daylight Time, alexh@ivanhoe.starway.net.au writes: << It was not violence that has hurt Pokemon. Quite the opposite. It was Warner Bros' castration of the anime series and films that hurt its popularity. Anyone who claims that violence isn't popular is quite mad. >> Well put, Alex. Warner Bros. is definitely hurting the franchise. Somehow, they think that kids are so impressed with the way they are able to group together old episodes rather than showing new episodes. Look, it's Charmander week. Now it's Jigglypuff week. Hey, look out for Team Rocket week. News flash, Kids WB, NO ONE F*#KING CARES!!! Because of their poor decision making, the anime series is continually losing ratings to Digimon and (ugh) Nickelodeon. I don't mean to say that they're single handedly taking down the franchise, but they sure aren't helping. - -Eric- [ To quit the n64 mailing list, send the message "unsubscribe n64" ] [ (without the quotes) to majordomo@xmission.com ] ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 27 Oct 2000 21:00:02 -0500 From: Thraxen Subject: Re: [N64] Majora > Those who do buy the PS2 will have the choice of playing either DVDs, PS2 or PSX > software. The PS2 software purchased by PS2 owners will be a fraction of the > total software purchased by PS2 owners. PS2 Software:PS2 Hardware ratios > must be lowered as a result. But the ratio still does not matter...only number of units moved...that is the final number that matters. Anywa, those thing you point are true but really don't matter so much. If these people who had wanted to buy DVDs movies had opted to instead to skip the gaming system and get a stand alone DVD player...then there would be zero PSX and PS2 sale for that individual. So if by offering DVD movie playack you get a few extra people to get the PS2 and the occasional game...that is still more units moved than if that person had just gone with a DVD player. Or, if the PS2 had not offered DVD playback and that same person (who is interested in DVDs and games) had opted to get both a DVD player and a PS2, they are still splitting their expendable cash between DVDs and PS2 software anyway. So, despite all these point you and Dex try to bring up about DVD video playback affecting PS2 software sales....all your points are moot by the point I have just made...damn I'm good. Besides, who says that people buying DVD movies would be taking that cash from their games sales? I still buy as many games as I ever did before I got my DVD player....I consider them seperate. I just spend less cash elsewhere. People use their expendable cash in lots of ways...just not movies and games. Let's take Dex postion to the extreme to show how silly it i, shall we? He implies that the software/hardware ratios are all important and this what developers look at when deciding to develop a game for a given platform. He further concludes that this is why DVD playback is bad since it lowers these ratios by increasing the install base with consumers who will buy more movies and less games. So buy this argument....I think Dex should go out and try to get as many Sony haters as possible together and they should all go out and buy as many PS2s as they can and then buy ZERO games for it!!! This way, their software/hardware ratios will be lowered and developers will no longer want to develop for the system! Oh yes! Now THAT is a plan! *snicker* hahahah! hehehehe! Stryder [ To quit the n64 mailing list, send the message "unsubscribe n64" ] [ (without the quotes) to majordomo@xmission.com ] ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 11 Aug 2000 19:38:14 -0700 From: Dexter Sy Subject: Re: [N64] Majora > > Let's take Dex postion to the extreme to show how silly it i, shall we? He > implies that the software/hardware ratios are all important and this what > developers look at when deciding to develop a game for a given platform. He > further concludes that this is why DVD playback is bad since it lowers these > ratios by increasing the install base with consumers who will buy more > movies and less games. So buy this argument....I think Dex should go out > and try to get as many Sony haters as possible together and they should all > go out and buy as many PS2s as they can and then buy ZERO games for it!!! > This way, their software/hardware ratios will be lowered and developers will > no longer want to develop for the system! Oh yes! Now THAT is a plan! > *snicker* hahahah! hehehehe! > > Stryder The funny part is how you've conviniently missed responding to my post which produces numbers that proves my point while you continue to respond to threads on Vi's vgames mailing list and to the "Majora" thread on this one. You mentioned the amount of units moved counts? How about this. 80,000 units is the avg amount a ps2 game is selling at, and the ratio is less than 2 software sold per Ps2 console. Face the music before you make a bigger fool out of yourself splitting hairs to try to squeeze out reasoning out of an argument you have already lost. As for getting as many PS2 haters out there to buy a PS2 and not buy any games for it, I don't need to do that. People in the PlayStation camp are doing a fine job as it is. hehehe... hahahaha... back to you. - -- Dexter S. Tendo Box - Nintendo e-zine Http://www.tendobox.com [ To quit the n64 mailing list, send the message "unsubscribe n64" ] [ (without the quotes) to majordomo@xmission.com ] ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 11 Aug 2000 20:05:27 -0700 From: Dexter Sy Subject: [N64] DVD PLayback (was Majora) > But the ratio still does not matter...only number of units moved...that is > the final number that matters. It does matter. If I have an installed base of 1 million and moves 2 million units of software, I would technically be in a dead heat with another console with half a million installed base that also moved 2 million units in software. Installed base matters, its a factor definately, but looking at just the installed base and crossing you fingers (like you are doing) that everyone is going to be buying several games a year is like the fisherman who casts his line into the water hoping to catch a 10 pounder when the fish in the lake only grow to 5 pounds. What you're doing is essentially putting emphasis on one thing and ignoring the other. Installed base work hand in hand with software to hardware sales ratio. Console manufacturers work to increase software/hardware ratio all the time. The ratio will inevitably increase over time, of couse, as users accumulate software throughout a console's lifetime so that's not really what I'm concerend about. But a good console with an active userbase will ultimately have a higher software to hardware ratio than a console with less activity in terms of software. And I've been hammering this point accross but you seem to miss it. Publishers may look at the installed base to get a picture of market penetration, but installed base becomes moot if the installed base of a leading console is producing software sales results that aren't blowing the competition out of the water. All it tells them is that if they can get their games out on those other console they will probably make as much, if not more money as they are already making now. > Anywa, those thing you point are true but > really don't matter so much. To you. But it does matter as I have explained. The Super Nintendo has a larger installed base than the Nintendo 64, so why aren't publishers making games for it? based on your theory, the SuperNES should be kicking butt in software sales right now. Publishers aren't making games for it because the software for the SNES aren't moving compared to the N64. > If these people who had wanted to buy DVDs > movies had opted to instead to skip the gaming system and get a stand alone > DVD player...then there would be zero PSX and PS2 sale for that individual. > So if by offering DVD movie playack you get a few extra people to get the > PS2 and the occasional game...that is still more units moved than if that > person had just gone with a DVD player. It also gives people like you a false sense of security and say things like... oh, PS2 has 2.2 million in installed base. Nice.. A publisher would say. How much software has it moved thus far? Only 4 million?. That 4 million is the other part of the equation. divide 4 by 2.2 and you get 1.81 games sold per PlayStation 2. Not exactly rosy numbers, especially in a market with 2 or 3 big selling titles that takes most of the sales, the remaining 35 or so titles are left to split a pie so small the average number a ps2 software is selling at right now is 80,000 units. > Or, if the PS2 had not offered DVD > playback and that same person (who is interested in DVDs and games) had > opted to get both a DVD player and a PS2, they are still splitting their > expendable cash between DVDs and PS2 software anyway. This has nothing to do with expendable cash. You chose to look at it in those terms but that's not what I was getting at. > So, despite all these > point you and Dex try to bring up about DVD video playback affecting PS2 > software sales....all your points are moot by the point I have just > made...damn I'm good. You're not good. You're just not looking at what I am saying. It's funny how you agreed to Alex's statements when he clearly was saying somethign in agreement to my statements. If it was not Alex saying those words, you may have had found fault in some unrelated peripheral issue and continued the debate talking about somethign slightly off from what we're supposed to the talking about. I am talking about software/hardware sales ratio specially and as we've seen thus far, you've tried to lead this discussion into percentages (something i didn't even bother reading) and into expendable income. All related topics for sure, but you're missing the point of the thread entirely when you put so much emphasis on peripheral points and call yourself "good" for proving a point I wasn't trying to disprove. - -- Dexter S. Tendo Box - Nintendo e-zine Http://www.tendobox.com [ To quit the n64 mailing list, send the message "unsubscribe n64" ] [ (without the quotes) to majordomo@xmission.com ] ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 27 Oct 2000 23:57:27 -0500 From: Thraxen Subject: Re: [N64] Majora > The funny part is how you've conviniently missed responding to my post which > produces numbers that proves my point while you continue to respond to threads > on Vi's vgames mailing list and to the "Majora" thread on this one. > You mentioned the amount of units moved counts? How about this. > 80,000 units is the avg amount a ps2 game is selling at, and the ratio is less > than 2 software sold per Ps2 console. haha...poor Dex...I did not bother with it since I have repeatedly acknowledged that the first wave is lack luster...my only point has been is that they still have a year or so before Dolphin and hence have time to dig in. They have managed to get a sizable instal base out there...if they can get some higher quality games out before the Dolphin hits, they will likly sell very well and Nintedno could be in trouble. But i guess you have once again ignored/forgotten the many times have I said this already. > Face the music before you make a bigger fool out of yourself splitting hairs to > try to squeeze out reasoning out of an argument you have already lost. Hahahaha...pathetic. > As for getting as many PS2 haters out there to buy a PS2 and not buy any games > for it, I don't need to do that. People in the PlayStation camp are doing a > fine job as it is. hehehe... hahahaha... back to you. Still money for Sony and it's developers either way..only a fool like yourself would try and say a high volume of sales (even if it is PSX games) is bad. Sheeesh. You're far too easy to debate.. Stryder [ To quit the n64 mailing list, send the message "unsubscribe n64" ] [ (without the quotes) to majordomo@xmission.com ] ------------------------------ Date: Sat, 28 Oct 2000 00:34:30 -0500 From: Thraxen Subject: Re: [N64] DVD PLayback (was Majora) > Installed base work hand in hand with software to hardware sales ratio. Console > manufacturers work to increase software/hardware ratio all the time. The ratio > will inevitably increase over time, of couse, as users accumulate software > throughout a console's lifetime so that's not really what I'm concerend about. > But a good console with an active userbase will ultimately have a higher > software to hardware ratio than a console with less activity in terms of > software. And I've been hammering this point accross but you seem to miss it. > Publishers may look at the installed base to get a picture of market > penetration, but installed base becomes moot if the installed base of a leading > console is producing software sales results that aren't blowing the competition > out of the water. All it tells them is that if they can get their games out on > those other console they will probably make as much, if not more money as they > are already making now. *sigh* as I said before, it will all depend on the difference between the install bases. In the end Dex...they will still take the number of games per console and mutliply it by the number of units to get the total number of units being moved. As I stated before, it all depends on the difference in size between the bases. If one is a lot larger than another....who cares if it sells few titles per console it the total sales is much higher? You know what i say to be the truth dex...all sales charts are based on total units...not ratios. Ratios may or may not give insight on such things as the target audiece of a console (i.e. how much they spend on games and such), but in the end it does and always will come down to how games can we sell to this user base vs this other user base. Total units. > To you. But it does matter as I have explained. The Super Nintendo has a larger > installed base than the Nintendo 64, so why aren't publishers making games for > it? based on your theory, the SuperNES should be kicking butt in software sales > right now. Publishers aren't making games for it because the software for the > SNES aren't moving compared to the N64. Fool...thatis a completely different issue....you have brought into play a massive technology difference. People naturally progress forward with technology. This issue is stupid to even bring up. Figures you would though... > It also gives people like you a false sense of security and say things like... > oh, PS2 has 2.2 million in installed base. Nice.. A publisher would say. How > much software has it moved thus far? Only 4 million?. That 4 million is the > other part of the equation. divide 4 by 2.2 and you get 1.81 games sold per > PlayStation 2. Haha...ratios again...here again is where it would come down to the difference in the install bases. The ratio won't matter at all. If they were truly looking at 2 different systems and considering developing for one...they would look at that 4 million...and then see how many sales the other system has generated. > > Or, if the PS2 had not offered DVD > > playback and that same person (who is interested in DVDs and games) had > > opted to get both a DVD player and a PS2, they are still splitting their > > expendable cash between DVDs and PS2 software anyway. > > This has nothing to do with expendable cash. You chose to look at it in those > terms but that's not what I was getting at. You brought up spend habit of people in relation to thef act that it is usually stable...i was just using what said. And yes, it has everything to do with it. You are saying that the DVD feature was bad to include since it will reduce the sales and those precious ratios. I was just showing why the sale of DVD movies is likely unreleated to the game sales and therefore not a bad feature to have included. > You're not good. You're just not looking at what I am saying. It's funny how > you agreed to Alex's statements when he clearly was saying somethign in > agreement to my statements. If it was not Alex saying those words, you may have > had found fault in some unrelated peripheral issue and continued the debate > talking about somethign slightly off from what we're supposed to the talking > about. I am talking about software/hardware sales ratio specially and as we've > seen thus far, you've tried to lead this discussion into percentages (something > i didn't even bother reading) and into expendable income. The only time I brought percentages into the game was in my car sales example...and in case your math skills are lacking....ratios and percentages are basically the same thing. In my example i was pointing out that you could sell a given game to a higher percentage of users in one base (because that base has the higher software/hardware ratio), but in the larger base you might sell to a lower percentage of the install base (because it has thelower software/hardware ratio) yet still move more units to the larger bases even though a smaller percentage (i.e. ratio software per hardware) bought the game. And in the end...that is what would matter..how many people bought the game...NOT what percentage (i.e. ratio) of the install base bought the game. Sorry if I confused you with the percentages, I thought you would realize that I was still talking about ratios...guess not. when will you learn Dex? You know I am right. It all comes down to this....you would choose to develop a game for a smaller user base (say 100) because it has a higher software/hardware ratio and you could move your game to a higher percenatge of the users...say 75 bought your game. Where I would look at the larger user base (say 300) and even if I could only sell the same game to only 1/3 (~33%) of the install base instead of the 3/4 (75%) on the smaller install base,. So you would end up with your 75 sales and I would end up with 100. Why? Because i would have used raw units moved and you would have been running around using your pretty ratios (that 75% of users buying a game does look pretty on paper doesn't it?...but it won't get yyou anywhere in this example). The raw units will never lead you wrong...whereas ratios and percentages can lead you in the wrong direction (your path). You just don't like to admit when I'm right. Try this...you give me an example of how looking at the total number of units being moved could lead you down the wrong path. I have showed you the inherent faults with ratios and perntages. Stryder [ To quit the n64 mailing list, send the message "unsubscribe n64" ] [ (without the quotes) to majordomo@xmission.com ] ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 11 Aug 2000 22:55:38 -0700 From: Dexter Sy Subject: Re: [N64] Majora > > haha...poor Dex...I did not bother with it since I have repeatedly > acknowledged that the first wave is lack luster...my only point has been is > that they still have a year or so before Dolphin and hence have time to dig > in. They have managed to get a sizable instal base out there...if they can > get some higher quality games out before the Dolphin hits, they will likly > sell very well and Nintedno could be in trouble. But i guess you have once > again ignored/forgotten the many times have I said this already. Ummm... I think if anyone should feel sorry its to feel sorry for you. You're so desperate to feel good about your decision to stick up for PS2 you simply would not allow anyone to question it. In anycase, you're so called "acknowledgement" of luckluster sales have been under the breath, forced as shown here. You never volunteered the information, > > Hahahaha...pathetic. Yes. Jed? Should I call you Jed? > > Still money for Sony and it's developers either way..only a fool like > yourself would try and say a high volume of sales (even if it is PSX games) > is bad. Sheeesh. Yes yes. Pointless as always. Discussions about sales rations become moot arguments about money for sony. I don't even think we're discussing money. In anycase, Sony is losing money from their exhorbitent production cost for PS2. > > > You're far too easy to debate.. I think you're speaking about yourself. Check the thread :) - -- Dexter S. Tendo Box - Nintendo e-zine Http://www.tendobox.com [ To quit the n64 mailing list, send the message "unsubscribe n64" ] [ (without the quotes) to majordomo@xmission.com ] ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 11 Aug 2000 23:06:39 -0700 From: Dexter Sy Subject: Re: [N64] DVD PLayback (was Majora) > > *sigh* as I said before, it will all depend on the difference between the > install bases. In the end Dex...they will still take the number of games > per console and mutliply it by the number of units to get the total number > of units being moved. As I stated before, it all depends on the difference > in size between the bases. If one is a lot larger than another....who cares > if it sells few titles per console it the total sales is much higher? You > know what i say to be the truth dex...all sales charts are based on total > units...not ratios. Ratios may or may not give insight on such things as > the target audiece of a console (i.e. how much they spend on games and > such), but in the end it does and always will come down to how games can we > sell to this user base vs this other user base. Total units. Ya whatever. It's really a very simple idea. You chose to fight it because the PlayStation 2 is on the receiving end. > Fool...thatis a completely different issue....you have brought into play a > massive technology difference. People naturally progress forward with > technology. This issue is stupid to even bring up. Figures you would > though... Hmmm? Don't call me names you can't prove. Stick with the issues. > > Haha...ratios again...here again is where it would come down to the > difference in the install bases. The ratio won't matter at all. If they > were truly looking at 2 different systems and considering developing for > one...they would look at that 4 million...and then see how many sales the > other system has generated. It does matter. Simple Aaron, the business of video games is about selling games. So how many games a console sells has everything to do with its business. > > > > when will you learn Dex? You know I am right. I know your confused. You choose to ignore what I say and go on your little rant, even with the ego to call yourself ":good" If you're good at anything, its definately not in debating. You restate your arguments everytime, always adjusting it ever so slightly so it would not appear I was hitting at anything. But if you take a look at the original statement I was responding to, you had said things you've later retracted, ignored, forgotten, and you have the tanacity to call me names. Call things I've said pathetic? Look in the mirror, you know what your intentions are, if you can't admit you jumped the gun when i was just being a tad "skeptical" then you're more shallow than I think. By the way, while you're spending your time writing case samples about car dealerships, I've been telling you the facts. I say the games aren't moving, and you give me a one page essay on why it would be beneficial to Sony. That's just hilarious. - -- Dexter S. Tendo Box - Nintendo e-zine Http://www.tendobox.com [ To quit the n64 mailing list, send the message "unsubscribe n64" ] [ (without the quotes) to majordomo@xmission.com ] ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 11 Aug 2000 23:14:03 -0700 From: Dexter Sy Subject: Re: [N64] DVD PLayback (was Majora) > It all comes down to > this....you would choose to develop a game for a smaller user base (say 100) > because it has a higher software/hardware ratio and you could move your game > to a higher percenatge of the users...say 75 bought your game. Where I > would look at the larger user base (say 300) and even if I could only sell > the same game to only 1/3 (~33%) of the install base instead of the 3/4 > (75%) on the smaller install base,. So you would end up with your 75 sales > and I would end up with 100. Why? Because i would have used raw units > moved and you would have been running around using your pretty ratios (that > 75% of users buying a game does look pretty on paper doesn't it?...but it > won't get yyou anywhere in this example). The raw units will never lead you > wrong...whereas ratios and percentages can lead you in the wrong direction > (your path). Stick your heard out of that hole its been stuck in and breath some fresh air. The discussion has nothing to do with game peneration vs. user base. If a game reaches a large portion of the userbase, it tells you its popular. Software to hardware ratio gives you a big picture because it tells you exactly how many peices of software are moving vs each console sold. It says volumes about the buying habits of the console's users among other things. low software to hardware rations means users are less inclined to buy software and yes, it does say something. - -- Dexter S. Tendo Box - Nintendo e-zine Http://www.tendobox.com [ To quit the n64 mailing list, send the message "unsubscribe n64" ] [ (without the quotes) to majordomo@xmission.com ] ------------------------------ Date: Sat, 28 Oct 2000 04:25:23 -0500 From: Thraxen Subject: Re: [N64] Majora > > Ummm... I think if anyone should feel sorry its to feel sorry for you. You're so > desperate to feel good about your decision to stick up for PS2 you simply would > not allow anyone to question it. > In anycase, you're so called "acknowledgement" of luckluster sales have been > under the breath, forced as shown here. You never volunteered the information, Haha...feel sorry for me? It really matters little to me. I have my PS2 already paid off...I'm just waiting to pick it up and 2 games...I'll do the same with the Dolphin and X-box. So in the end, I don't care where the good games are...I'll have them. I have never said otherwise relating to the PS2 games...nor has any acknowledgement of them been forced. Even before you entered the debate, I had already stated that the first wave was average to good with nothing revolutionary....i've stated it many times of my own free will. You just dont read my posts very well. Never have. But there is a fundamental difference between you and me when it comes to these debates. You always forcast doom for Sony...and when you do you talk about "when" this or that is going to happen or this "will" happen. All your debates are full of what you apparently consider certainties. Like when you state stuff like "You 'will' feel foolish when the PS2 comes out and the games are all crap'. So yes, that is why I stick up for the PS2...i like to debate your supposed certainties. If you would read back through myposts I rarely use any definite terms...I make my points using 'if' this occurs or this 'could' happen. It's always like this...you seem to like think you always have me...but in reality you just never like to admit defeat or that anything I say could happen....you can't because you always lock yourself in with those 'will' and 'when' arguments. I mean...look at what this debate has come...you are actually trying to say that total sales is not what matters...ratios are. The whole thing is absurd to the nth degree. Stryder [ To quit the n64 mailing list, send the message "unsubscribe n64" ] [ (without the quotes) to majordomo@xmission.com ] ------------------------------ Date: Sat, 28 Oct 2000 04:39:52 -0500 From: Thraxen Subject: Re: [N64] DVD PLayback (was Majora) - ----- Original Message ----- From: "Dexter Sy" To: Sent: Saturday, August 12, 2000 1:06 AM Subject: Re: [N64] DVD PLayback (was Majora) > > > > *sigh* as I said before, it will all depend on the difference between the > > install bases. In the end Dex...they will still take the number of games > > per console and mutliply it by the number of units to get the total number > > of units being moved. As I stated before, it all depends on the difference > > in size between the bases. If one is a lot larger than another....who cares > > if it sells few titles per console it the total sales is much higher? You > > know what i say to be the truth dex...all sales charts are based on total > > units...not ratios. Ratios may or may not give insight on such things as > > the target audiece of a console (i.e. how much they spend on games and > > such), but in the end it does and always will come down to how games can we > > sell to this user base vs this other user base. Total units. > > Ya whatever. It's really a very simple idea. You chose to fight it because the > PlayStation 2 is on the receiving end. This has nothing to do with the PS2...it's just absurd to say that total sales is not what matters. You did not even address any ofmy points in that paragraph...you know I'm right. > > > Fool...thatis a completely different issue....you have brought into play a > > massive technology difference. People naturally progress forward with > > technology. This issue is stupid to even bring up. Figures you would > > though... > > Hmmm? Don't call me names you can't prove. Stick with the issues. Haha...you have let names fly yourself...you are again just refusing to acknowledge that I am right that bringing up that argument is stupid. As for 'can't prove'...I thought that little point you brought up was fairly good proof. > > > Haha...ratios again...here again is where it would come down to the > > difference in the install bases. The ratio won't matter at all. If they > > were truly looking at 2 different systems and considering developing for > > one...they would look at that 4 million...and then see how many sales the > > other system has generated. > > It does matter. Simple Aaron, the business of video games is about selling > games. So how many games a console sells has everything to do with its business. exactly...total sales matters > By the way, while you're spending your time writing case samples about car > dealerships, I've been telling you the facts. I say the games aren't moving, and > you give me a one page essay on why it would be beneficial to Sony. That's > just hilarious. Hahahaha...tell me oh wise Dex...when did I ever say that the games were moving? Try never. You have completely lost your grip on this debate, Dex. That was never the issue. The whole tangent on the debate started when for some reason you tried to say that the DVD feature was bad because it was creating large install base with a low software/hardware ratio and then later when on to say that this ratio is what developers looked at for deciding whether ot not to develop for a system. I have simply been saying that a large install base is always good and that even if the software/hardware sales ratio is low...that does not matter if (see that IF I use?) the larger user bases is moving more total games even if it does have a lower software/hardware ratio...hence that ratioi s useless. Total sales matters. NEVER ONCE have stated that I thought the PS2 line-up was selling fast...this whole debate had been about the issue of the DVD feature, install base size, and ratios vs total sales. Or have you simply forgotten all that? This has never been about the first wave of PS2 games...I just said the DVD feature was good since it was getting a large install base out there....you are trying to twist this into something else and put words in my mouth...but you never and never will get away with that against me. Stryder > Dexter S. > Tendo Box - Nintendo e-zine > Http://www.tendobox.com > > > > [ To quit the n64 mailing list, send the message "unsubscribe n64" ] > [ (without the quotes) to majordomo@xmission.com ] > [ To quit the n64 mailing list, send the message "unsubscribe n64" ] [ (without the quotes) to majordomo@xmission.com ] ------------------------------ End of n64-digest V1 #1326 ************************** [ To quit the n64-digest mailing list (big mistake), send the message ] [ "unsubscribe n64-digest" (without the quotes) to majordomo@xmission.com ]