From: owner-n64-digest@lists.xmission.com (n64-digest) To: n64-digest@lists.xmission.com Subject: n64-digest V1 #1382 Reply-To: n64-digest Sender: owner-n64-digest@lists.xmission.com Errors-To: owner-n64-digest@lists.xmission.com Precedence: bulk n64-digest Saturday, November 25 2000 Volume 01 : Number 1382 Re: [N64] More dough for Do-- get it? Re: [N64] More dough for Do-- get it? Re: [N64] More dough for Do-- get it? Re: [N64] GBA Re: [N64] More dough for Do-- get it? Re: [N64] GBA Re: [N64] More dough for Do-- get it? Re: [N64] More dough for Do-- get it? Re: [N64] More dough for Do-- get it? ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Date: Fri, 24 Nov 2000 23:35:18 -0800 From: Dexter Sy Subject: Re: [N64] More dough for Do-- get it? - --------------F5BC73CEFEB7276D5327CA34 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit > I guess so, but I think Stryder makes the better argument in this > case. All > systems are using more face buttons, so to not include them is still > rather > puzzling. I think it could be a spectacular system, but, as of now, > I'm kind > of skeptical about it. > -Eric- You may well be right about more buttons. But I remain skeptical of the negativity towars the 2 button + 2 shoulder button configuration for reasons I've already stated. I'd be more outraged if they had a diamond 4 botton configuration and no shoulder buttons because shoulder buttons lets you do some nifty things. adding 2 more buttons on the face is marginal, and most games only use 3, and if you go back to your old snes games, you'll notice most games only use the A and B buttons, plus L and R. X and Y just duplicate the functions of A and B. - -- Dexter S. Tendo Box - Nintendo e-zine Http://www.tendobox.com - --------------F5BC73CEFEB7276D5327CA34 Content-Type: text/html; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit

I guess so, but I think Stryder makes the better argument in this case. All
systems are using more face buttons, so to not include them is still rather
puzzling. I think it could be a spectacular system, but, as of now, I'm kind
of skeptical about it.
-Eric-

You may well be right about more buttons. But I remain skeptical of the negativity towars the 2 button + 2 shoulder button configuration for reasons I've already stated. I'd be more outraged if they had a diamond 4 botton configuration and no shoulder buttons because shoulder buttons lets you do some nifty things. adding 2 more buttons on the face is marginal, and most games only use 3, and if you go back to your old snes games, you'll notice most games only use the A and B buttons, plus L and R. X and Y just duplicate the functions of A and B.

--
Dexter S.
Tendo Box - Nintendo e-zine
Http://www.tendobox.com
- --------------F5BC73CEFEB7276D5327CA34-- [ To quit the n64 mailing list, send the message "unsubscribe n64" ] [ (without the quotes) to majordomo@xmission.com ] ------------------------------ Date: Sat, 25 Nov 2000 01:54:10 -0600 From: Thraxen Subject: Re: [N64] More dough for Do-- get it? This is a multi-part message in MIME format. - ------=_NextPart_000_0050_01C05682.9AB0F740 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable <<#1. Multi-tap is not fixing the problem at all. You might as well = sell to a blank market. It's not going to fly and publishers will = continue to sell to the lowest common denominator >> Don't be foolish...I see your point, but to say it does not fix the = problem at all is a stretch....mine seems to work just fine. Ha! <<#2. I've said time and again I reserve my judgement on this issue = because you have to see the kind of games for the GBA and how they play. = Sitting at home and thinking about why the GBA didn't have 2 extra = buttons but had 2 shoulder buttons is really pointless. The parallel = with PlayStation 2's dilema is superficial, because they are completely = different paradigms. >>> Well, you brought it up... <>> I still say the two shoulders plus two more face are = better...obviously better. Fighters, for example, are far better with = more face buttons. << I can think of one reason now. To keep games simple enough for a = portable machine. >>> That makes little sense. Why does a game need to be simpler simply = because it is portable?? Explain that further. Again I will use = fighters...they are fairly simple games as far as the concept goes...but = they play better if you have more buttons available. <<< The shoulder buttons had to be included because its a natural = evolution to controller design, more buttons however, isn't and I = honestly don't see the GBA will suffer at all without those 2 buttons. = Granted it's not desinged to play Doom, which the GBA wasn't expected to = run anyways. >>> What? Natural evolution of controller design? I think the natural = evolution of controller design has already shown that more face buttons = are better. Why do you think that after the DC was launched that = controllers suddenly appeared that had six face buttons with two of them = mimicing the shoulder buttons? Well, I'll tell you...because that is = where many people prefer them to be...and the DC already had 4 on the = face. BTW, should buttons ARE more buttons (in reference to shoulder = buttons being a natural evolution and more buttons not). Stryder - ------=_NextPart_000_0050_01C05682.9AB0F740 Content-Type: text/html; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable

<<#1. Multi-tap is not fixing the problem at all. You = might as=20 well sell to a blank market. It's not going to fly and publishers = will=20 continue to sell to the lowest common denominator >>

Don't be foolish...I see your point, = but to say it=20 does not fix the problem at all is a stretch....mine seems to work just=20 fine. Ha!

<<#2. I've said time and again I reserve my = judgement on=20 this issue because you have to see the kind of games for the GBA and how = they=20 play. Sitting at home and thinking about why the GBA didn't have 2 = extra=20 buttons but had 2 shoulder buttons is really pointless. The = parallel=20 with PlayStation 2's dilema is superficial, because they are completely=20 different paradigms. >>>

Well, you brought it up...

<<Nintendo actually puts a lot of thought into controller = design, and=20 they probably have good reason to keep it 2 face buttons plus 2 = shoulder=20 buttons. >>>

I still say the two shoulders plus two = more face=20 are better...obviously better. Fighters, for example, are far = better=20 with more face buttons.

<< I can think of one reason now. To keep games = simple=20 enough for a portable machine. >>>

That makes little sense. Why does a game need to be simpler = simply=20 because it is portable?? Explain that further. Again I = will use=20 fighters...they are fairly simple games as far as the concept = goes...but they=20 play better if you have more buttons available.

<<< The shoulder buttons had to be included because = its a=20 natural evolution to controller design, more buttons however, isn't = and I=20 honestly don't see the GBA will suffer at all without those 2=20 buttons. Granted it's not desinged to play Doom, which the = GBA=20 wasn't expected to run anyways. >>>

What? Natural evolution of = controller=20 design? I think the natural evolution of controller design has = already=20 shown that more face buttons are better. Why do you think = that=20 after the DC was launched that controllers suddenly appeared that had = six face=20 buttons with two of them mimicing the shoulder buttons? = Well, I'll=20 tell you...because that is where many people prefer them to be...and = the DC=20 already had 4 on the face. BTW, should buttons ARE more = buttons=20 (in reference to shoulder buttons being a natural evolution and more = buttons=20 not).

Stryder

- ------=_NextPart_000_0050_01C05682.9AB0F740-- [ To quit the n64 mailing list, send the message "unsubscribe n64" ] [ (without the quotes) to majordomo@xmission.com ] ------------------------------ Date: Sat, 25 Nov 2000 01:33:31 -0800 From: Dexter Sy Subject: Re: [N64] More dough for Do-- get it? - --------------0A227CA7730E305A2198108C Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Thraxen wrote: >Don't be foolish...I see your point, but to say it does not fix the problem at all is >stretch....mine seems to work just fine. Ha! Good for you. Doesn't matter, as you've acknowledge my pont. >Well, you brought it up... Yes, complete with smiling faces. Take a hint. Maybe I was trying to make a playful remark. You take any negativity against ps2 always, as an attack. I don't think you can ever claim to be neutral, after that last discussion and this one. >I still say the two shoulders plus two more face are better...obviously better. >Fighters, for example, are far better with more face buttons. That's not a bad point. Except I don't think Nintendo is tailoring GBA to fighters. I reserve my judgement, and in fact, I think we'll gain some more insight as to why they went with 2 buttons + 2 shoulder buttons once the console reaches market. >That makes little sense. Why does a game need to be simpler simply because it >is portable?? Explain that further. Again I will use fighters...they are fairly simple >games as far as the concept goes...but they play better if you have more buttons >available. Are you intentionally being naive or do you have no clue? I'm not sure why you think you're qualified to partake in this discussion if you haven't the slightest clue of portable games should be made simple. Let me ask you this question. Why are arcade games for the most part less complicated and less time consuming than home games. >What? Natural evolution of controller design? I think the natural evolution of >controller design has already shown that more face buttons are better. Why do you >think that after the DC was launched that controllers suddenly appeared that had six >face buttons with two of them mimicing the shoulder buttons? Well, I'll tell >you...because that is where many people prefer them to be...and the DC already had >4 on the face. That's your opinion, but the DC controller isn't winning prizes and you seem to have conviniently forgotten Sony did not upgrade its controller confugration at all, and the GameCube controller isn't throwing around any more buttons. For a portable console to feature shoulder buttons is a marked improvement yes, as it was an evolution for home gaming when Nintendo introduced them. Gameplay wise, it's far more important than adding more buttons on the face. > BTW, should buttons ARE more buttons (in reference to shoulder >buttons being a >natural evolution and more buttons not). That's right. So why are you whining? There are more buttons. :) - -- Dexter S. Tendo Box - Nintendo e-zine Http://www.tendobox.com - --------------0A227CA7730E305A2198108C Content-Type: text/html; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit

Thraxen wrote:

>Don't be foolish...I see your point, but to say it does not fix the problem at all is >stretch....mine seems to work just fine. Ha!

Good for you. Doesn't matter, as you've acknowledge my pont.

>Well, you brought it up...

Yes, complete with smiling faces. Take a hint. Maybe I was trying to make a playful remark. You take any negativity against ps2 always, as an attack. I don't think you can ever claim to be neutral, after that last discussion and this one.

>I still say the two shoulders plus two more face are better...obviously better. >Fighters, for example, are far better with more face buttons.

That's not a bad point. Except I don't think Nintendo is tailoring GBA to fighters.
I reserve my judgement, and in fact, I think we'll gain some more insight as to why they went with 2 buttons + 2 shoulder buttons once the console reaches market.

>That makes little sense. Why does a game need to be simpler simply because it >is portable?? Explain that further. Again I will use fighters...they are fairly simple >games as far as the concept goes...but they play better if you have more buttons >available.

Are you intentionally being naive or do you have no clue? I'm not sure why you think you're qualified to partake in this discussion if you haven't the slightest clue of portable games should be made simple. Let me ask you this question. Why are arcade games for the most part less complicated and less time consuming than home games.

>What? Natural evolution of controller design? I think the natural evolution of >controller design has already shown that more face buttons are better. Why do you >think that after the DC was launched that controllers suddenly appeared that had six >face buttons with two of them mimicing the shoulder buttons? Well, I'll tell >you...because that is where many people prefer them to be...and the DC already had >4 on the face.

That's your opinion, but the DC controller isn't winning prizes and you seem to have conviniently forgotten Sony did not upgrade its controller confugration at all, and the GameCube controller isn't throwing around any more buttons.

For a portable console to feature shoulder buttons is a marked improvement yes, as it was an evolution for home gaming when Nintendo introduced them. Gameplay wise, it's far more important than adding more buttons on the face.

> BTW, should buttons ARE more buttons (in reference to shoulder >buttons being a >natural evolution and more buttons not).

That's right. So why are you whining? There are more buttons. :)

--
Dexter S.
Tendo Box - Nintendo e-zine
Http://www.tendobox.com
- --------------0A227CA7730E305A2198108C-- [ To quit the n64 mailing list, send the message "unsubscribe n64" ] [ (without the quotes) to majordomo@xmission.com ] ------------------------------ Date: Sat, 25 Nov 2000 07:58:00 -0500 From: "Dave Rhodes" Subject: Re: [N64] GBA This is a multi-part message in MIME format. - ------=_NextPart_000_0024_01C056B5.6E7F9C20 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable As long as the Game Boy Advance has a kickass brand new Super Mario = Bros. title as a launch game (pack in please) I'll get it now matter how = many buttons it has. ~~ Dave ~~ =20 "If there's a fire it's asleep in my bed I must leave it to burn until it burns itself out Catch as you can I'm not staying here long I'll be coming back early or never at all" - Genesis =20 Treytable@sega.net AIM: Super Trey Bros - ------=_NextPart_000_0024_01C056B5.6E7F9C20 Content-Type: text/html; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable

As long as the Game Boy Advance has a = kickass brand=20 new Super Mario Bros. title as a launch game (pack in please) I'll get = it now=20 matter how many buttons it has.

~~ Dave ~~
=
"If there's a=20 fire it's asleep in my bed
I must leave it to burn until it burns = itself=20 out
Catch as you can I'm not staying here long
I'll be coming back = early=20 or never at all" - Genesis

Treytable@sega.net
AIM: = Super Trey=20 Bros

- ------=_NextPart_000_0024_01C056B5.6E7F9C20-- [ To quit the n64 mailing list, send the message "unsubscribe n64" ] [ (without the quotes) to majordomo@xmission.com ] ------------------------------ Date: Sat, 25 Nov 2000 12:14:09 EST From: Nutz4n64@aol.com Subject: Re: [N64] More dough for Do-- get it? - --part1_e2.ce50ede.27514d61_boundary Content-Type: text/plain; charset="US-ASCII" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit In a message dated 11/24/2000 11:22:21 PM Pacific Standard Time, dextersy@home.com writes: > and if you go back to your old SNES games, you'll notice most games only use > the A and B buttons, plus L and R. X and Y just duplicate the functions > of A and B. > Actually, Y and B were most frequently used. SMW: Y= run, B= jump. Star Fox: Y= fire. The only oddball I can think of is Super Metroid in which A= jump and X= fire. Still, Y and B were dominant. - -Eric- The moon is like an authority, with its circular pattern How round, so round... No matter what happens in the world, the night goes on "Nyarth no Uta" Pocket Monsters - --part1_e2.ce50ede.27514d61_boundary Content-Type: text/html; charset="US-ASCII" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit In a message dated 11/24/2000 11:22:21 PM Pacific Standard Time,
dextersy@home.com writes:

and if you go back to your old SNES games, you'll notice most games only use
the A and B buttons, plus L and R. X and Y just duplicate the functions
of A and B.

Actually, Y and B were most frequently used. SMW: Y= run, B= jump. Star
Fox: Y= fire. The only oddball I can think of is Super Metroid in which A=
jump and X= fire. Still, Y and B were dominant.
-Eric-

The moon is like an authority, with its circular pattern
How round, so round...
No matter what happens in the world, the night goes on

"Nyarth no Uta" Pocket Monsters - --part1_e2.ce50ede.27514d61_boundary-- [ To quit the n64 mailing list, send the message "unsubscribe n64" ] [ (without the quotes) to majordomo@xmission.com ] ------------------------------ Date: Sat, 25 Nov 2000 12:23:40 EST From: Nutz4n64@aol.com Subject: Re: [N64] GBA - --part1_51.3f335d3.27514f9c_boundary Content-Type: text/plain; charset="UTF-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Content-Language: en In a message dated 11/25/2000 4:58:25 AM Pacific Standard Time,=20 treytable@sega.net writes: > As long as the Game Boy Advance has a kickass brand new Super Mario Bros.=20 > title as a launch game (pack in please) I'll get it now matter how many=20 > buttons it has. > =20 > ~~ Dave ~~ >=20 And as long as they have a new Pok=C3=A9mon game in the works, we all know w= ho's=20 getting one of those. ;) - -Eric- =E2=80=9CNanda kanda to kikare tara Kotaete ageru ga yo no nasake Sekai no hakai o fusegu tame Sekai no heiwa o mamoru tame Ai to shinjitu no aku o turanuku Lovely charmy na kataki yaku Musashi! Kojiro! Ginga o kakeru Rocket dan no futari niwa White hole, shiroi ashita ga matteruze Nya-nte na!=E2=80=9D - --part1_51.3f335d3.27514f9c_boundary Content-Type: text/html; charset="UTF-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Content-Language: en In a message dated 11/25/2000 4:58:25 AM Pacific Stand= ard Time,
treytable@sega.net writes:

As long as the Game Boy Adv= ance has a kickass brand new Super Mario Bros.
title as a launch game (p= ack in please) I'll get it now matter how many
buttons it has.
=20
~~ Dave ~~

And as long as they have a new Pok=C3=A9mon game in the works, we all kn= ow who's
getting one of those. ;)
-Eric-

=E2=80=9CNanda kanda to kikare tara
Kotaete ageru ga yo no nasake
Sekai no hakai o fusegu tame
Sekai no heiwa o mamoru tame
Ai to shinjitu no aku o turanuku
Lovely charmy na kataki yaku
Musashi!
Kojiro!
Ginga o kakeru Rocket dan no futari niwa
White hole, shiroi ashita ga matteruze
Nya-nte na!=E2=80=9D

Rocket Dan- Pocket Monsters a - --part1_51.3f335d3.27514f9c_boundary-- [ To quit the n64 mailing list, send the message "unsubscribe n64" ] [ (without the quotes) to majordomo@xmission.com ] ------------------------------ Date: Sat, 25 Nov 2000 13:30:05 EST From: DarkBastion@aol.com Subject: Re: [N64] More dough for Do-- get it? - --part1_ad.3681be3.27515f2d_boundary Content-Type: text/plain; charset="ISO-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable < >>=A0=20 No, in Earthworm Jim, X turns on some old lady's porch light in Russia. HOW=20 WRONG WE ARE, EH DEX!?!?!" ~Matt "It only makes sense that every facet of our daily lives should depend upon=20 the position of celestial bodies hundreds of millions of miles away." -=20 Calvin and Hobbes - --part1_ad.3681be3.27515f2d_boundary Content-Type: text/html; charset="ISO-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable <<You may well be right about more buttons.=A0 B= ut I remain skeptical of the
negativity towars the 2 button + 2 shoulder= button configuration for reasons
I've already stated.=A0 I'd be more ou= traged if they had a diamond 4 botton
configuration and no shoulder butt= ons because shoulder buttons lets you do
some nifty things.=A0 adding 2=20= more buttons on the face is marginal, and most
games only use 3, and if=20= you go back to your old snes games, you'll notice
most games only use= =A0 the A and B buttons, plus L and R.=A0=A0 X and Y just
duplicate the=20= functions of A and B.=20
=A0 --=20
Dexter S.=20
Tendo Box - Nintendo e-zine=20
http://www.tendobox.com/ >&g= t;=A0=20

No, in Earthworm Jim, X turns on some old lady's porch light in Russia.=20= HOW
WRONG WE ARE, EH DEX!?!?!"

~Matt

"It only makes sense that every facet of our daily lives should depend u= pon
the position of celestial bodies hundreds of millions of miles away.= " -
Calvin and Hobbes - --part1_ad.3681be3.27515f2d_boundary-- [ To quit the n64 mailing list, send the message "unsubscribe n64" ] [ (without the quotes) to majordomo@xmission.com ] ------------------------------ Date: Sat, 25 Nov 2000 13:32:49 EST From: DarkBastion@aol.com Subject: Re: [N64] More dough for Do-- get it? - --part1_c8.d5a74e3.27515fd1_boundary Content-Type: text/plain; charset="US-ASCII" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit <> Score one more point for Dex on Next Gen's "Are You A Hardcore Gamer?" quiz. ~Matt "A majority only means that all the fools are on the same side." - --part1_c8.d5a74e3.27515fd1_boundary Content-Type: text/html; charset="US-ASCII" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit <<The parallel with PlayStation 2's dilema is superficial, because they are
completely different paradigms. >>

Score one more point for Dex on Next Gen's "Are You A Hardcore Gamer?" quiz.

~Matt

"A majority only means that all the fools are on the same side." - --part1_c8.d5a74e3.27515fd1_boundary-- [ To quit the n64 mailing list, send the message "unsubscribe n64" ] [ (without the quotes) to majordomo@xmission.com ] ------------------------------ Date: Sat, 25 Nov 2000 13:37:08 -0600 From: Thraxen Subject: Re: [N64] More dough for Do-- get it? This is a multi-part message in MIME format. - ------=_NextPart_000_0008_01C056E4.CEBD0440 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Are you intentionally being naive or do you have no clue? I'm not = sure why you think you're qualified to partake in this discussion if you = haven't the slightest clue of portable games should be made simple. Let = me ask you this question. Why are arcade games for the most part less = complicated and less time consuming than home games. >>> Naive? Please Dex...sad. I love how I ask you to explainfurther and = you respond with a question....haha, talk about avoiding the issue. As = for arcade game, I do not think they are more complicated at all...we = see arcade ports all the time. They may be more complicated from a = mechanical stand point (i.e. moving chairs and such), but the games = themselves are usually simple. But, they are time comsuming....and the = reason for that is so they can take your money. Dex...you still have = not explained why a portable game should be simple....try again. =20 >What? Natural evolution of controller design? I think the natural = evolution of >controller design has already shown that more face buttons = are better. Why do you >think that after the DC was launched that = controllers suddenly appeared that had six >face buttons with two of = them mimicing the shoulder buttons? Well, I'll tell >you...because that = is where many people prefer them to be...and the DC already had >4 on = the face.=20 That's your opinion, but the DC controller isn't winning prizes and = you seem to have conviniently forgotten Sony did not upgrade its = controller confugration at all, and the GameCube controller isn't = throwing around any more buttons. >>> Dex...think please. We are not talk ergonomic design here...the DC = controller has been ridiculed for not having anough room for your = fingers on the side grips. It's hilarious how you mention other console = controllers and how they have not upgraded, but have obviously decided = to overlook the fact that they already have more than 2 face buttons. = That was my point all along. You're a hoot, Dex... Stryder - ------=_NextPart_000_0008_01C056E4.CEBD0440 Content-Type: text/html; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable

Are you intentionally being naive or do you have no clue? I'm = not=20 sure why you think you're qualified to partake in this discussion if = you=20 haven't the slightest clue of portable games should be made = simple. Let=20 me ask you this question. Why are arcade games for the most part = less=20 complicated and less time consuming than home games.=20 >>>

Naive? Please Dex...sad. I = love how I=20 ask you to explainfurther and you respond with a question....haha, = talk about=20 avoiding the issue. As for arcade game, I do not think they are = more=20 complicated at all...we see arcade ports all the time. They may = be more=20 complicated from a mechanical stand point (i.e. moving chairs and = such), but=20 the games themselves are usually simple. But, they are time=20 comsuming....and the reason for that is so they can take your = money. =20 Dex...you still have not explained why a portable game should be=20 simple....try again.

>What? Natural = evolution of=20 controller design? I think the natural evolution of = >controller=20 design has already shown that more face buttons are better. Why = do you=20 >think that after the DC was launched that controllers suddenly = appeared=20 that had six >face buttons with two of them mimicing the shoulder=20 buttons? Well, I'll tell >you...because that is where many = people=20 prefer them to be...and the DC already had >4 on the=20 face.=20
That's your opinion, but the DC = controller=20 isn't winning prizes and you seem to have conviniently forgotten Sony = did not=20 upgrade its controller confugration at all, and the GameCube = controller isn't=20 throwing around any more buttons. >>>
Dex...think please. We are not = talk ergonomic=20 design here...the DC controller has been ridiculed for not having = anough room=20 for your fingers on the side grips. It's hilarious how you = mention other=20 console controllers and how they have not upgraded, but have obviously = decided=20 to overlook the fact that they already have more than 2 face = buttons. =20 That was my point all along. You're a hoot, Dex...

Stryder

- ------=_NextPart_000_0008_01C056E4.CEBD0440-- [ To quit the n64 mailing list, send the message "unsubscribe n64" ] [ (without the quotes) to majordomo@xmission.com ] ------------------------------ End of n64-digest V1 #1382 ************************** [ To quit the n64-digest mailing list (big mistake), send the message ] [ "unsubscribe n64-digest" (without the quotes) to majordomo@xmission.com ]