From: "E.R. Stanway" Subject: Re: TPDIS: Blue and the Green Date: 01 Nov 2002 08:06:04 +0000 (GMT) On Thu, 31 Oct 2002, Carol Bevis wrote: > Mind you, the commentaries are hysterically funny > on the Blue and the Green, so I'm getting the rest to see if they are as > much fun as that one. > I know it's not widely available yet but has anyone else listened to the commentary on the Doomsday Men yet? ___________________________________________________________________ Elizabeth Stanway ers24@cam.ac.uk http://www.geocities.com/CapeCanaveral/8403 "When in danger, when in doubt, run in circles, scream and shout." ___________________________________________________________________ ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: Michael Matott Subject: Re: TPDIS: Telepathy Date: 01 Nov 2002 06:39:03 -0800 (PST) Ooh, good discussion topic. Since similar thoughts have been brought up recently, I wondered if we might compile a list of continuity errors, inconsistencies, etc. A few things that come to mind: Will the real Hitler please stand up? We have two completely different Hitlers in the series. The one from Hitler's Last Secret is a shape-changing alien. The one mentioned in The Medusa Strain is a time-travelling human criminal. When the TPs jaunt there is a sound effect. When Steen (Medusa Strain) jaunted there was no sound. I can't think of another non-TP that jaunted except possibly Timus, but I don't remember if they ever actually *showed* him jaunting, other than when he arrived from the trig, and as that was TIM assisted I don't think it should count. When Stephen uses TK on the broken crystal ball at Tyso's and when Mike uses TK in One Law, there is a visible glowing effect, but when Kenny uses TK in Slaves of Jedikiah and when Stephen and Liz use TK in A Rift in Time there's no glowing effect. Telepathy was mentioned. Some inconsistencies: Stephen alters the memories of the police officers in Blue and the Green, but at no other time in the series is anyone's memory altered. That would've made more sense in Doomsday Men than the astronaut saying their secret was safe because 'no one would believe me'!!! John later says they can't read other people's minds. Yet, we have examples of three non-TP telepaths in the series who can to some extent read minds: Pavla, Tricia Conway, and the blond military woman whose name I'm blanking on from Dirtiest Business. All of these telepaths are at a level far below that of the TP, as witness the effect on Tricia when Liz lowered her mental shields in Secret Weapon. So if the TPs are that much more powerful than a non-TP telepath, why couldn't they read non-TP minds? In Rift in Time, if they're using telepathy to both translate Latin and maintain their Kymaeleon suits then why do both still work when they're under the influence of the dampening field which prevents them from telepathically contacting each other, jaunting, or using TK? If Peter is trying to reach the TP through time, why would he contact the TP post-Carol, when she was the TP he had the most contact and familiarity with? Why not simply contact them at a time after he met her, but before she left for the Trig? (I know this is a silly thing, because Sammy Winmill left the show, but so far as continuity goes, it is a slight gaffe.) Why in some cases do people hit by a stun gun fall down unconscious and others stand as if frozen still? That seems to change almost from serial to serial. :-) A few others have already been mentioned. Anything else people can think of? mike __________________________________________________ Do you Yahoo!? HotJobs - Search new jobs daily now http://hotjobs.yahoo.com/ ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: "Mike Stone" Subject: Re: TPDIS: Was Blue and the Green Date: 01 Nov 2002 15:18:38 +0000 >>Hopefully Sammy Winmill never punches you in the nose if you ever meet, >>but I wouldn't blame her if she did! >> >Eep! I'm sorry. I meant no offence. I'll addmit there have been plenty of >people named John I haven't liked. Having said that, the TP John is one of >my favourite characters. :-) Sorry if I sounded mean, I meant to sound cheeky! :-) Still, she has a good point. I noticed this when reading the books too. I don't know if this has been discussed before, but it seems that despite all of Roger Price's efforts to tear down some of society's stumbling blocks of racism, overly-zealous religious people, etc., I think he was probably a bit of a chauvinist. Obviously John was supposed to be the father-figure of the group, and Carol the mother-figure, and that chauvinism seems to emerge through John, and into Carol's over-reactionary mothering. You can still see *some* of this in Elizabeth, but a lot more subdued. I would see Stephen as the teenager, and Kenny as the child of the family. Obviously, it was set up this way to try to appeal to each age group of the young audience. It's too bad both actresses couldn't have been on the show at the same time, as I think it may have evened out all those polarized personalities. But I don't think the chauvinism was intentional, just probably the way Price grew up. I think it's most noticeable in John's lines, but you'll catch it from time to time in other men's lines in the show. Oh well, enough of that. I still need to finish watching A Rift In Time! :-) Take care, Mike _________________________________________________________________ Internet access plans that fit your lifestyle -- join MSN. http://resourcecenter.msn.com/access/plans/default.asp ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: "Jackie Clark" Subject: Re: TPDIS: Telepathy Date: 01 Nov 2002 20:12:50 -0000 > > When the TPs jaunt there is a sound effect. When > Steen (Medusa Strain) jaunted there was no sound. I thought there was a strange musical effect when he jaunted or have I imagined it? > > Telepathy was mentioned. Some inconsistencies: > Stephen alters the memories of the police officers in > Blue and the Green, but at no other time in the series > is anyone's memory altered. That would've made more > sense in Doomsday Men than the astronaut saying their > secret was safe because 'no one would believe me'!!! abut they did re-educate the boys from the school (some would even call it brain washing) > John later says they can't read other people's minds. > Yet, we have examples of three non-TP telepaths in the > series who can to some extent read minds: Pavla, > Tricia Conway, and the blond military woman whose name > I'm blanking on from Dirtiest Business. All of these > telepaths are at a level far below that of the TP, as > witness the effect on Tricia when Liz lowered her > mental shields in Secret Weapon. But was lowering it all she did? Perhaps she fired a barrage of Telepathy at Tricia like shining a torch in someone's eyes and causing a temporary blindness, which would allow her time to contact the others! So if the TPs are > that much more powerful than a non-TP telepath, why > couldn't they read non-TP minds? > In Rift in Time, if they're using telepathy to both > translate Latin and maintain their Kymaeleon suits > then why do both still work when they're under the > influence of the dampening field which prevents them > from telepathically contacting each other, jaunting, > or using TK? And how come Peter could contact them at all if he knew that Gaius had a dampening field in operation? It seemed that Gaius switched it on when he met John, Liz & Chris at the gate of the gladiator school. Yet, when Peter meets Stephen in the dungeon he implies that their 'special powers' don't work at all at the school... What I was trying to establish in my original mail is a unfied theory to incorporate all of these inconsistencies and still make sense... is it possible? Jackie ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: "Carol Bevis" Subject: Re: TPDIS: Telepathy Date: 01 Nov 2002 21:22:05 -0000 Thanks for that. I never really understood the fist analogy when I saw the first OS episode - personally, without that explanation, I thought it rather confusing. Back to telepathy: OS you get the thoughts of all surrounding people flooding their minds, NS this does not seem to happen in the TV series (but in the books manifests as a headache, with the earliest TP breakouts - ie not from Megabyte onwards). NS doesn't say whether or not they can read normals - other than Kevin saying he's always been able to do it even before he broke out. NS breakouts seem to be marked by the first teleport rather than a telepathic headache. As regards TPs reading each other's minds, I would have thought they can raise a mental shield between themselves and other TPs. If this was not possible they would probably drive each other insane. I wonder if telepathy as well as teleportation (OS) uses hyperspace. If not I would have thought it was on some kind of wavelength. I have a theory that most people could be telepathic in that all could *send* thoughts, but only TPs and other forms of telepath can *receive*. The normal human has a sending gene but telepaths/TPs have the receiving gene as well. However, I'm no scientist. Regards, Carol ----- Original Message ----- Sent: Thursday, October 31, 2002 8:34 AM > hi All, > It's been so quiet around here lately that I thought I'd take some time out > at work to stir things up a bit and get a discussion going. > > I was watching A Rift in Time last night (and falling about with hysterics > at the audio commentary) it does seem so much funnier when you know the > people involved and what they are like under normal circumstances ;-) Enough > name dropping lets get back to the topic... > > I was Thinking about the fact that they could read Saps minds to translate > their thought patterns and understand their language. > > I wondered whether we, as a group,(and i know there are parapsychologists, > physicists, biologists etc. etc. on this list) could come up with a > definition or working theory for the TP's use of telepathy. > > As I see it here are the relevant facts. > > 1. At break out they have the thoughts of all Saps flooding into their brain > and they have to think of a fist and form a mental barrier. > > 2. Carol mentions that they cannot read Stephen's mind unless he wants them > to! > > 3. There are Sap telepaths in 'The Visitor' book and Trisha who work for the > army. John allows her to hear TIM... How could he do this? > > 4. At some point they mention that they cannot read Sap minds (although I'm > not sure where I got this idea from. > > 5. In ARIT they can translate brain waves to interpret language. > > 6. The link table can boost the signal. > > 7. TIM is telepathic even though he is basically an artificial > intelligence... a super computer made from biological materials. > > 8. Telepathy doesn't work when someone is asleep (usually) although you can > send messages through time using it! and TP's can share dreams in common. > > 9. They can send emotions as well as words e.g. in Doomsday Men Stephen > knows the others are eating breakfast! > > Is there any information/cannon I've missed? > > So what I'd like to know is a) what telepathy actually is? Is is a signal? > does it have a wavelength? How could the TP's brain's actually generate it? > What are it's strengths and limitations? Does it have an element of empathy > to it? > > > I hope this can lead to a new discussion and that all the new list members > can join in with their own ideas. I'd especially like to know more about how > the telepathy works in the NS? > > TTFN > > Chris ;-) > > > > > > > > > _________________________________________________________________ > Unlimited Internet access for only $21.95/month. Try MSN! > http://resourcecenter.msn.com/access/plans/2monthsfree.asp > > > ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: "Carol Bevis" Subject: Re: TPDIS: Blue and the Green Date: 01 Nov 2002 20:57:03 -0000 We'll probably find out next year as I am going to the 30th Anniversary Dinner. Regards, Carol ----- Original Message ----- Sent: Thursday, October 31, 2002 8:49 PM > >PLEASE don't even think about comparing me to that cheesy, irritating > >screamer! As I have said on the list before, I am embarrassed to share the > >same spelling of my first name with her. Why couldn't they have spelt it > >with an 'e' on the end?!? :) > > Ugh! Yes, you've mentioned that before. Don't worry, I don't think anyone's > going to confuse you with her. ;-) > > Still, I can't say I'm particularly fond of Mike on the show either, but I'm > not going to complain. I do remember when I was in the 4th grade, another > 'Mike' said I was a 'disgrace to all mikes.' So, I punched him right in the > nose! It was worth being suspended from school, too. :-) > > Hopefully Sammy Winmill never punches you in the nose if you ever meet, but > I wouldn't blame her if she did! > > > > > _________________________________________________________________ > Get a speedy connection with MSN Broadband. Join now! > http://resourcecenter.msn.com/access/plans/freeactivation.asp > > > ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: "John A. Merullo" Subject: TPDIS: Hsui Tai Date: 01 Nov 2002 19:16:58 -0600 I realise I'm the dense newbie (as someone once said), so I apologise if this topic has been done to death, but here goes. I like Hsui Tai. Most of what I've read in the fan publications about Hsui Tai has been pretty negative. True, she was shy and reserved, but given her secluded upbringing that is understandable. And, yes, she was hard to understand sometimes, but we all know about Misako Koba's limited English skills. She did remarkably well considering. I always had a soft spot for Hsui Tai. I thought she was cute (Not that way. John is more my type! ;-) ). More imortantly, she represented the diversity of the TP ideal far more than any of the others. After all, she was the only one of the OS cast who was not British (and one of only four who were not of English extraction). And, despite her quiet nature, she must have been quite powerful. Surely there could have been TPs in France, Belgium or others places closer to England (taking into account someone or other's proximity theory), yet she was able to reach out to Mike all the way from Asia. Her very being on the show confirmed that there would be TPs from other places. Yes, there could even be American TPs (and of course if I'd been able to be the first American TP I would have ;-) ) Anyway, I would cast my vote for Hsui Tai for most underrated TP. I only wish the series had continued a little longer so as to develop her character better. Anyone else? ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: CMento6653@aol.com Subject: Re: TPDIS: Telepathy Date: 01 Nov 2002 20:19:51 EST --part1_10.27b2c1e3.2af48237_boundary Content-Type: text/plain; charset="US-ASCII" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit In a message dated 11/1/02 9:40:01 AM Eastern Standard Time, greyfalcon_1@yahoo.com writes: > When > Steen (Medusa Strain) jaunted there was no sound. I > can't think of another non-TP that jaunted except > I think there was a sound but it was different or was that just the accompanying music? --part1_10.27b2c1e3.2af48237_boundary Content-Type: text/html; charset="US-ASCII" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit In a message dated 11/1/02 9:40:01 AM Eastern Standard Time, greyfalcon_1@yahoo.com writes:


When
Steen  (Medusa Strain) jaunted there was no sound.  I
can't think of another non-TP that jaunted except


I think there was a sound but it was different or was that just the accompanying music? --part1_10.27b2c1e3.2af48237_boundary-- ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: Dark4eyes@aol.com Subject: Re: TPDIS: Telepathy Date: 01 Nov 2002 20:26:53 -0500 When Steen  (Medusa Strain) jaunted there was no sound.  I can't think of another non-TP that jaunted except I think there was a sound but it was different or was that just the accompanying music? There was a series of low musical tones whenever Steen jaunted - kinda eerie sounding onse, too. viv Check out new and used zines, memorabilia, comic books, and books at our "Internet Garage Sale" http://pages.prodigy.net/tia-pals/ ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: CMento6653@aol.com Subject: Re: TPDIS: Telepathy Date: 01 Nov 2002 20:27:07 EST --part1_126.1997b875.2af483eb_boundary Content-Type: text/plain; charset="US-ASCII" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit In a message dated 11/1/02 3:11:15 PM Eastern Standard Time, jackie@effdee.demon.co.uk writes: > abut they did re-educate the boys from the school (some would even call it > brain washing) > > not really. As Tim explained it, the boys were just being shown the true blood and gore of war and they would still be free to make up their own minds. --part1_126.1997b875.2af483eb_boundary Content-Type: text/html; charset="US-ASCII" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit In a message dated 11/1/02 3:11:15 PM Eastern Standard Time, jackie@effdee.demon.co.uk writes:


abut they did re-educate the boys from the school (some would even call it
brain washing)



not really. As Tim explained it, the boys were just being shown the true blood and gore of war and they would still be free to make up their own minds. --part1_126.1997b875.2af483eb_boundary-- ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: CMento6653@aol.com Subject: Re: TPDIS: Hsui Tai Date: 01 Nov 2002 20:32:25 EST --part1_de.2fa40891.2af48529_boundary Content-Type: text/plain; charset="US-ASCII" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit I think there were many problems that didn't allow for Hsui Tai to be used better. The actress was pretty but she really didn't know how to act or have much experience. Don['t get me wrong, despite that I liked her. I think she tried. I also don't think she had a great knowledge of the English language, which is understandable. I think that might have added to the realism that she sometimes gave off. I also felt, for once, that this was really a foreigner unlike Pavla and the "Russians" in DB. I also like the fact that some Tp weren't rebellious and acting out but were quiet and reserved. I think they "TP""British"ed her up too fast, too soon. Some more adjustment problems might have done well. Also where did she go or live? Another aspect is the cheap budget didn't allow for much foreign TPs. --part1_de.2fa40891.2af48529_boundary Content-Type: text/html; charset="US-ASCII" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit I think there were many problems that didn't allow for Hsui Tai to be used better. The actress was pretty but she really didn't know how to act or have much experience. Don['t get me wrong, despite that I liked her. I think she tried. I also don't think she had a great knowledge of the English language, which is understandable. I think that might have added to the realism that she sometimes gave off. I also felt, for once, that this was really a foreigner unlike Pavla and the "Russians" in DB. I also like the fact that some Tp weren't rebellious and acting out but were quiet and reserved. I think they "TP""British"ed her up too fast, too soon. Some more adjustment problems might have done well. Also where did she go or live? Another aspect is the cheap budget didn't allow for much foreign TPs. --part1_de.2fa40891.2af48529_boundary-- ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: CMento6653@aol.com Subject: Re: TPDIS: Telepathy Date: 01 Nov 2002 20:33:13 EST --part1_aa.1468b350.2af48559_boundary Content-Type: text/plain; charset="US-ASCII" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit The Steen music actually sounded like something/some sound played backwards. --part1_aa.1468b350.2af48559_boundary Content-Type: text/html; charset="US-ASCII" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit The Steen music actually sounded like something/some sound played backwards. --part1_aa.1468b350.2af48559_boundary-- ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: Latimer84@aol.com Subject: Re: TPDIS: Telepathy Date: 01 Nov 2002 23:57:03 -0500 In a message dated 11/1/2002 9:39:03 AM Eastern Standard Time, greyfalcon_1@yahoo.com writes: > Telepathy was mentioned. Some inconsistencies: > Stephen alters the memories of the police officers in > Blue and the Green, but at no other time in the series > is anyone's memory altered. That would've made more > sense in Doomsday Men than the astronaut saying their > secret was safe because 'no one would believe me'!!! Liz alters the memories of a priest in Secret Weapon, IIRC. I think that it wasn't a constant power because: a) it was a bit of a weak explanation and too much of a plot convenience, and b) and it made them a bit too powerful. Of course, randomly giving it to the characters and then taking it away isn't great either ^_^; - Geoff ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: David Steinberg Subject: Re: TPDIS: Telepathy Date: 01 Nov 2002 21:00:43 -0800 (PST) On Fri, 1 Nov 2002, Latimer84@aol.com wrote: > Of course, randomly giving it to the characters and then taking it away isn't great either ^_^; Well the OS would NEVER randomly take away the TP's power with no explanation given for plot convinience.... Well maybe once or twice. You'd think that Stephen wouldn't be so surprised when his powers go out since just about anyone can block them. -David "ZZYZX" Steinberg www.ihoz.com "very strange raving egomaniac" ********************************************************************** * "I'm having to educate my new *"I can't believe I'm a junior and a* * English friend I met at Burning* film major, when all I really * * Man about Underoos. Don't they* wanted in this life was to marry a* * get anything cool over there?" * lobsterman and cook fish." * * -J. Elizabeth Smith * -a letter from Christie Searing * ********************************************************************** ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: Jorge Subject: Felicidades!!!! Date: 02 Nov 2002 07:18:18 -0500

 

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------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: Beth A. Epstein Subject: TPDIS: DVD notes Date: 02 Nov 2002 12:34:54 -0600 Just in case I'm not the last person to figure this out: Doomsday Men has been posted as a single DVD release to Blackstar's page. If you all ready bought The Blue and the Green before the announcement of the release of the box set, it is cheaper to buy the other two separately-- though you get the third DVD very cheap if you buy it as a box set. Does anyone know if they're planning box sets for the other seasons? (Might be worth holding off and waiting, especially if they put the fourth season 3 parters on separate DVDs.) Tigger ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: "Cobalt Blue" Subject: TPDIS: Check this out! Date: 02 Nov 2002 23:09:32 +0000
Hey,
 
I know this might be a tad off topic, but I figured that since it's the list bday, it's all right. I've made a TP quiz that you all can take (and post to your page or livejournal).
 
I promise to make an OS TP quiz just as soon as I get enough images and times. It was easier to do an NS TP quiz because there are only six of them. Also, mucho thanks to Anne, because the images all came from her.
 
Which NS TP are you?
 
 
And after you take it, tell us which TP you are and if you agree or not!
 
Quiz away,
Megan
 
***
"Yeah, we just got this new like SuperPower500 oven. It takes like five years to heat up but once it does, watch out! It's beans for every man, woman, and child on the planet!"
 
- Kielle
"Cooking"
 
 

Protect your PC - Click here for McAfee.com VirusScan Online ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: "Kristy Fahrenwald" Subject: Re: TPDIS: Check this out! Date: 03 Nov 2002 09:41:14 -0600 This is a multi-part message in MIME format. ------=_NextPart_000_2325_7799_122a Content-Type: text/plain; format=flowed I'm a bit surprised to be a Megabyte. I guess its the American in me. He seems to be the sterotypical American. I was worried I'd be an Adam... I'm just not up to that kind of responsibility. :) Kristy (The Sap Friend) _________________________________________________________________ Get a speedy connection with MSN Broadband.  Join now! http://resourcecenter.msn.com/access/plans/freeactivation.asp ------=_NextPart_000_2325_7799_122a Content-Type: message/rfc822 Received: from mc5-f23.law1.hotmail.com ([65.54.252.30]) by mc5-s4.law1.hotmail.com with Microsoft SMTPSVC(5.0.2195.5600); Sat, 2 Nov 2002 15:09:47 -0800 Received: from lists.xmission.com ([198.60.22.7]) by mc5-f23.law1.hotmail.com with Microsoft SMTPSVC(5.0.2195.5600); Sat, 2 Nov 2002 15:09:47 -0800 Received: from domo by lists.xmission.com with local (Exim 2.12 #2) id 1887Ob-00026Y-00 for tpdis-gooutt@lists.xmission.com; Sat, 2 Nov 2002 16:09:37 -0700 Received: from [207.68.165.17] (helo=hotmail.com) by lists.xmission.com with esmtp (Exim 2.12 #2) id 1887OZ-00026I-00 for tpdis@lists.xmission.com; Sat, 2 Nov 2002 16:09:35 -0700 Received: from mail pickup service by hotmail.com with Microsoft SMTPSVC; Sat, 2 Nov 2002 15:09:32 -0800 Received: from 128.163.249.85 by sea2fd.sea2.hotmail.msn.com with HTTP; Sat, 02 Nov 2002 23:09:32 GMT X-Originating-IP: [128.163.249.85] Bcc: Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/html Message-ID: X-OriginalArrivalTime: 02 Nov 2002 23:09:32.0674 (UTC) FILETIME=[E75EB620:01C282C4] Sender: owner-tpdis@lists.xmission.com Precedence: bulk Reply-To: tpdis@lists.xmission.com Return-Path: owner-tpdis@lists.xmission.com
Hey,
 
I know this might be a tad off topic, but I figured that since it's the list bday, it's all right. I've made a TP quiz that you all can take (and post to your page or livejournal).
 
I promise to make an OS TP quiz just as soon as I get enough images and times. It was easier to do an NS TP quiz because there are only six of them. Also, mucho thanks to Anne, because the images all came from her.
 
Which NS TP are you?
 
 
And after you take it, tell us which TP you are and if you agree or not!
 
Quiz away,
Megan
 
***
"Yeah, we just got this new like SuperPower500 oven. It takes like five years to heat up but once it does, watch out! It's beans for every man, woman, and child on the planet!"
 
- Kielle
"Cooking"
 
 

Protect your PC - Click here for McAfee.com VirusScan Online ------=_NextPart_000_2325_7799_122a-- ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: "Scott S. Goldman" Subject: Re: TPDIS: Check this out! Date: 03 Nov 2002 10:47:24 -0500 --=======74BD297E======= Content-Type: multipart/alternative; x-avg-checked=avg-ok-65A37727; boundary="=====================_1098859095==.ALT" --=====================_1098859095==.ALT Content-Type: text/plain; x-avg-checked=avg-ok-65A37727; charset=us-ascii; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit cute... At 11:09 PM 11/2/2002 +0000, you wrote: >Hey, > >I know this might be a tad off topic, but I figured that since it's the >list bday, it's all right. I've made a TP quiz that you all can take (and >post to your page or livejournal). > >I promise to make an OS TP quiz just as soon as I get enough images and >times. It was easier to do an NS TP quiz because there are only six of >them. Also, mucho thanks to Anne, because the images all came from her. > >Which NS TP are you? > >http://expressions.populli.net/tpquiz.html > >And after you take it, tell us which TP you are and if you agree or not! > >Quiz away, >Megan > >*** >"Yeah, we just got this new like SuperPower500 oven. It takes like five >years to heat up but once it does, watch out! It's beans for every man, >woman, and child on the planet!" > >- Kielle >"Cooking" > > > > >---------- >Protect your PC - Click here for McAfee.com >VirusScan Online --=====================_1098859095==.ALT Content-Type: text/html; x-avg-checked=avg-ok-65A37727; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit cute...

At 11:09 PM 11/2/2002 +0000, you wrote:

Hey,
 
I know this might be a tad off topic, but I figured that since it's the list bday, it's all right. I've made a TP quiz that you all can take (and post to your page or livejournal).
 
I promise to make an OS TP quiz just as soon as I get enough images and times. It was easier to do an NS TP quiz because there are only six of them. Also, mucho thanks to Anne, because the images all came from her.
 
Which NS TP are you?
 
http://expressions.populli.net/tpquiz.html
 
And after you take it, tell us which TP you are and if you agree or not!
 
Quiz away,
Megan
 
***
"Yeah, we just got this new like SuperPower500 oven. It takes like five years to heat up but once it does, watch out! It's beans for every man, woman, and child on the planet!"
 
- Kielle
"Cooking"
 
 

Protect your PC - Click here for McAfee.com VirusScan Online
--=====================_1098859095==.ALT-- --=======74BD297E======= Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii; x-avg=cert; x-avg-checked=avg-ok-65A37727 Content-Disposition: inline --- Outgoing mail is certified Virus Free. Checked by AVG anti-virus system (http://www.grisoft.com). Version: 6.0.404 / Virus Database: 228 - Release Date: 10/15/2002 --=======74BD297E=======-- ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: "Mike Stone" Subject: Re: TPDIS: Check this out! Date: 03 Nov 2002 17:37:44 +0000 Hi Kristy, >I'm a bit surprised to be a Megabyte. I guess its the American in me. He >seems to be the sterotypical American. I was worried I'd be an Adam... I'm >just not up to that kind of responsibility. :) I just started watching some tapes of the new series, and was surprised to learn that I'm like 'Adam' after taking the quiz. I don't think I'm up to any kind of responsibility either! ;-) (And I always wondered why his name was 'Megabyte,' but I guess it's hard to imagine anybody other than a dog named 'Marmaduke!' ;-) Take care, Mike _________________________________________________________________ Surf the Web without missing calls! Get MSN Broadband. http://resourcecenter.msn.com/access/plans/freeactivation.asp ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: Ryan Turner Subject: Re: TPDIS: Check this out! Date: 03 Nov 2002 09:48:12 -0800 (PST) NEAT!! Hmm, first it says I'm an Adam, but if I change one question I'm not sure about it says I'm a Kevin :) Both of which make sense depending on my mood. Ryan __________________________________________________ Do you Yahoo!? HotJobs - Search new jobs daily now http://hotjobs.yahoo.com/ ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: Michael Matott Subject: Re: TPDIS: Check this out! Date: 03 Nov 2002 11:03:08 -0800 (PST) --- Cobalt Blue wrote: A very neat little quiz. Okay, for those on list who know me this won't be much of a surprise: The NS TP I most resemble is: Megabyte. :-) must have something to do with the red hair. mike -- me, sarcastic? perish the thought __________________________________________________ Do you Yahoo!? HotJobs - Search new jobs daily now http://hotjobs.yahoo.com/ ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: "Kristy Fahrenwald" Subject: Re: TPDIS: Check this out! Date: 03 Nov 2002 13:06:30 -0600 Hmm... I'm a redhead too. Maybe it is more that than the American thing. Biologists, psychologists, any wisdom on what is with us redheads? (Careful, we have that temper thing too.) Kristy _________________________________________________________________ Choose an Internet access plan right for you -- try MSN! http://resourcecenter.msn.com/access/plans/default.asp ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: Drew Thiele Subject: Re: TPDIS: Check this out! Date: 03 Nov 2002 12:01:02 -0800 --=======6872C65======= Content-Type: text/plain; x-avg-checked=avg-ok-1C2B6D; charset=us-ascii; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit Hehe. It said I was an "Adam"...go figure. A lot of personality tests seem to indicate Adam's type of personality for me, at least. ;) But yes, the questions are a bit limited. There probably should be a few more selections, because I found myself not sure on almost half the questions... ;) Especially the music one, which I don't even listen to :) The questions could be more complex, to allow dual or even triple qualities of each TP, etc, in one person. ;) Meaning one person could be a mixture of Lisa, and Jade, or someone else could be Megabyte and Adam combined. (That combination. Oy.) ;) Talk about opposites ;) -Drew --=======6872C65======= Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii; x-avg=cert; x-avg-checked=avg-ok-1C2B6D Content-Disposition: inline --- Outgoing mail is certified Virus Free. Checked by AVG anti-virus system (http://www.grisoft.com). Version: 6.0.408 / Virus Database: 230 - Release Date: 10/24/02 --=======6872C65=======-- ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: Beth E. Subject: Re: TPDIS: Check this out! Date: 03 Nov 2002 14:10:12 -0600 On Sunday, November 3, 2002, at 01:06 PM, Kristy Fahrenwald wrote: > Hmm... I'm a redhead too. Maybe it is more that than the American > thing. Biologists, psychologists, any wisdom on what is with us > redheads? (Careful, we have that temper thing too.) That's a nature/nurture question. My guess is coincidence. N=2 after all. It's probably an American thing-- I ended up being a Megabyte (I think it was the computer geek questions:)-- and I don't have red hair (unless you count the red highlights). Tigger ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: "Jackie Clark" Subject: Re: TPDIS: Check this out! Date: 03 Nov 2002 20:17:32 -0000 Am I the only Lisa Davies on the list... cynical? Well I don't trust on-line personality tests anyway ;-) It must have been the question about my mother that did it! Jackie ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: "David Yates" Subject: Re: TPDIS: Check this out! Date: 03 Nov 2002 20:49:21 -0000 I've tried to link to the quiz, but it won't open. Is it my computer or has the quiz gone down now? All the best, David. Hey, I know this might be a tad off topic, but I figured that since it's the list bday, it's all right. I've made a TP quiz that you all can take (and post to your page or livejournal). I promise to make an OS TP quiz just as soon as I get enough images and times. It was easier to do an NS TP quiz because there are only six of them. Also, mucho thanks to Anne, because the images all came from her. Which NS TP are you? ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: "jeffl1965" Subject: Re: TPDIS: Check this out! Date: 03 Nov 2002 14:18:40 -0600 Sure. Redheads have a higher I.Q. than most. Only Asians outrank us in that respect. :) The temper comes from the Celtic or even Nordic blood, remember Erik The Red or Leif Ericksen? :) But we also have a better sense of humour, such examples are Red Skeleton, Danny Kaye, Woody Allen, and even Carrot top. ----- Original Message ----- Sent: Sunday, November 03, 2002 1:06 PM > Hmm... I'm a redhead too. Maybe it is more that than the American thing. > Biologists, psychologists, any wisdom on what is with us redheads? > (Careful, we have that temper thing too.) > > Kristy > > > > > > > > > _________________________________________________________________ > Choose an Internet access plan right for you -- try MSN! > http://resourcecenter.msn.com/access/plans/default.asp > > > Introducing NetZero Long Distance 1st month Free! Sign up today at: www.netzerolongdistance.com ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: ade Subject: Re: TPDIS: Check this out! Date: 03 Nov 2002 17:47:37 -0500 No I was a Lisa as well. Jackie Clark wrote: > > Am I the only Lisa Davies on the list... cynical? Well I don't trust on-line > personality tests anyway ;-) > > It must have been the question about my mother that did it! > > Jackie ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: Ana Isabel Sacristan Subject: Re: TPDIS: Idea: Nitpickers Guide to The Tomorrow People Date: 31 Oct 2002 00:08:07 -0600 At 01:13 a.m. 30/10/2002 -0500, you wrote: >PH: Carol can communicate back in time!. When she is a >prisoner Robowski's ship and it is in the 26th century, she can talk to >the others in the 20th century This is explained in the episode; it is because of the same principle (the fourth dimensional time drift) by which Stephen saw the ship (and later John and he teleported outside it): because the ship is in hyperspace, and hyperspace is "everywhere, nowhere; that fragment of time without time, that lies between the end of one microsecond and the beginning of another one; that space that isn't space, that lies between the curving dimensions of eternity; the dimension which make star travel possible, time travel possible". But I found another Plot Hole in The Medusa Strain: How come Peter can send a telepathic call for help when he is in the Tower of London, but he can't jaunt away? Plot convenience, I suppose. Or maybe he is far enough from the Medusa to be able to use telepathy, but not far away enough to jaunt? ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: "John A. Merullo" Subject: Re: TPDIS: Check this out! Date: 03 Nov 2002 23:33:48 -0600 I'm an "Adam". I've never seen the New Series. That's good, isn't it? John ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: "Carol Bevis" Subject: Re: TPDIS: Check this out! Date: 04 Nov 2002 20:49:07 -0000 This is a multi-part message in MIME format. ------=_NextPart_000_001E_01C28443.9E6B42A0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable It seems I've turned out as Ami and I'm married to someone who turned = out as Adam. How about that? Regards, Carol ----- Original Message -----=20 From: Cobalt Blue=20 To: tpdis@lists.xmission.com=20 Sent: Saturday, November 02, 2002 11:09 PM Subject: TPDIS: Check this out! Hey,=20 I know this might be a tad off topic, but I figured that since it's = the list bday, it's all right. I've made a TP quiz that you all can take = (and post to your page or livejournal).=20 I promise to make an OS TP quiz just as soon as I get enough images = and times. It was easier to do an NS TP quiz because there are only six = of them. Also, mucho thanks to Anne, because the images all came from = her.=20 Which NS TP are you? http://expressions.populli.net/tpquiz.html And after you take it, tell us which TP you are and if you agree or = not! Quiz away,=20 Megan *** "Yeah, we just got this new like SuperPower500 oven. It takes like = five years to heat up but once it does, watch out! It's beans for every = man, woman, and child on the planet!" - Kielle "Cooking" ----- Protect your PC - Click here for McAfee.com VirusScan Online=20 ------=_NextPart_000_001E_01C28443.9E6B42A0 Content-Type: text/html; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable
It seems I've turned out as Ami and I'm = married to=20 someone who turned out as Adam. How about that?
 
Regards,
 
Carol
----- Original Message -----
From:=20 Cobalt=20 Blue
Sent: Saturday, November 02, = 2002 11:09=20 PM
Subject: TPDIS: Check this = out!

Hey,
 
I know this might be a tad off topic, but I figured that since = it's the=20 list bday, it's all right. I've made a TP quiz that you all can take = (and post=20 to your page or livejournal).
 
I promise to make an OS TP quiz just as soon as I get enough = images and=20 times. It was easier to do an NS TP quiz because there are only six of = them.=20 Also, mucho thanks to Anne, because the images all came from her. =
 
Which NS TP are you?
 
http://expressions.po= pulli.net/tpquiz.html
 
And after you take it, tell us which TP you are and if you agree = or=20 not!
 
Quiz away,
Megan
 
***
"Yeah, we just got this new like SuperPower500 oven. It takes = like five=20 years to heat up but once it does, watch out! It's beans for every = man, woman,=20 and child on the planet!"
 
- Kielle
"Cooking"
 
 

Protect your PC - Click = here for=20 McAfee.com VirusScan Online ------=_NextPart_000_001E_01C28443.9E6B42A0-- ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: "Mike \(at Work\)" Subject: RE: TPDIS: Check this out! Date: 04 Nov 2002 15:27:13 -0600 Hi Carol, >It seems I've turned out as Ami and I'm married to someone who turned out >as Adam. How about that? Are you sure you're not mostly like Carol from the original series. (big cheeky grin) :-) Mike Stone ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: "Scott S. Goldman" Subject: Re: TPDIS: Idea: Nitpickers Guide to The Tomorrow People Date: 04 Nov 2002 19:02:33 -0500 --=======5C8AC8F======= Content-Type: text/plain; x-avg-checked=avg-ok-36014007; charset=us-ascii; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit But yet, whenever someone is stuck in hyperspace, you have to know where they are. If the explanation fit, all you have to do to find someone 'lost in hyperspace' is just to jaunt anywhere (or anywhen) in hyperspace and broadcast a big hello! I didn't catch your plot hole.. and boy its a biggie... your right, if he can send thoughts to John and Carol, he should have been able to jaunt - even a small distance would have helped!... Anyway, given the lead he has and given the speed at which Coppin (sp?) hulks around, he should have been able to outrun him... I think about hyperspace FAR too much for a sap! At 12:08 AM 10/31/2002 -0600, you wrote: >At 01:13 a.m. 30/10/2002 -0500, you wrote: >>PH: Carol can communicate back in time!. When she is a >>prisoner Robowski's ship and it is in the 26th century, she can talk to >>the others in the 20th century > >This is explained in the episode; it is because of the same principle (the >fourth dimensional time drift) by which Stephen saw the ship (and later >John and he teleported outside it): because the ship is in hyperspace, >and hyperspace is "everywhere, nowhere; that fragment of time without >time, that lies between the end of one microsecond and the beginning of >another one; that space that isn't space, that lies between the curving >dimensions of eternity; the dimension which make star travel possible, >time travel possible". > > >But I found another Plot Hole in The Medusa Strain: >How come Peter can send a telepathic call for help when he is in the Tower >of London, but he can't jaunt away? Plot convenience, I suppose. Or maybe >he is far enough from the Medusa to be able to use telepathy, but not far >away enough to jaunt? > > > > > > > > --=======5C8AC8F======= Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii; x-avg=cert; x-avg-checked=avg-ok-36014007 Content-Disposition: inline --- Outgoing mail is certified Virus Free. Checked by AVG anti-virus system (http://www.grisoft.com). Version: 6.0.410 / Virus Database: 231 - Release Date: 10/31/2002 --=======5C8AC8F=======-- ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: "Shaun Hately" Subject: Re: TPDIS: Idea: Nitpickers Guide to The Tomorrow People Date: 05 Nov 2002 11:25:53 +1100 On 4 Nov 2002 at 19:02, Scott S. Goldman wrote: > But yet, whenever someone is stuck in hyperspace, you have to know where > they are. If the explanation fit, all you have to do to find someone 'lost > in hyperspace' is just to jaunt anywhere (or anywhen) in hyperspace and > broadcast a big hello! As hyperspace (in the TP world) has coordinates, there must be some spatial concept at work - it's just that it's a spatial concept that involves time, and well as our orthodox three dimensions. Things could easily be too far away through time and/or space for contact from another section of hyperspace - I don't see why you think there's an inconsistency here. Maybe I am missing something (-8 > I didn't catch your plot hole.. and boy its a biggie... your right, if he > can send thoughts to John and Carol, he should have been able to jaunt - > even a small distance would have helped!... I'm not sure that is true. We know that telepathy can work over far greater distances than jaunting - the TP need to wear jaunting belts/bands to boost their teleportation range - not their telepathic range. It seems to me quite reasonable to suppose, therefore, that jaunting takes a lot more energy than just telepathing. We also know that telepathy seems to appear in TPs before the ability to teleport, that could be a matter of skill, or strength, but just because you have the energy to do one, the power to do one, doesn't seem to indicate you must have the power to do the other at all. I can certainly see it as feasible that a person can telepath but not jaunt under certain circumstances It's a potential plot hole - but I don't see it as a big one. I think Ana's statement ("Or maybe he is far enough from the Medusa to be able to use telepathy, but not far away enough to jaunt?") is quite a reasonable possibility. > Anyway, given the lead he has > and given the speed at which Coppin (sp?) hulks around, he should have been > able to outrun him... When you jaunt everywhere, you get unfit? So you can't run very far? Yours Without Wax, Dreadnought Shaun Hately |webpage: http://www.alphalink.com.au/~drednort/thelab.html (ISTJ) |email: drednort@alphalink.com.au | ICQ: 6898200 "You know the very powerful and the very stupid have one thing in common. They don't alter their views to fit the facts. They alter the facts to fit the views. Which can be uncomfortable if you happen to be one of the facts that need altering." The Doctor - Doctor Who: The Face of Evil | Where am I: Frankston, Victoria, Australia ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: "Marcell J. Elsegood" Subject: Re: TPDIS: Idea: Nitpickers Guide to The Tomorrow People Date: 05 Nov 2002 08:56:57 -0600 Quoting Shaun Hately : > As hyperspace (in the TP world) has coordinates, there must be some spatial > > concept at work - it's just that it's a spatial concept that involves time, > and well as > our orthodox three dimensions. Things could easily be too far away through > time > and/or space for contact from another section of hyperspace - I don't see > why you > think there's an inconsistency here. Maybe I am missing something (-8 > > > I didn't catch your plot hole.. and boy its a biggie... your right, if he > > > can send thoughts to John and Carol, he should have been able to jaunt - > > even a small distance would have helped!... > > I'm not sure that is true. > > We know that telepathy can work over far greater distances than jaunting - > the TP > need to wear jaunting belts/bands to boost their teleportation range - not > their > telepathic range. It seems to me quite reasonable to suppose, therefore, > that > jaunting takes a lot more energy than just telepathing. We also know that > telepathy > seems to appear in TPs before the ability to t Well, I think Peter's non-jaunting is covered not as a plot whole, but as a plot device. Number one, he is following Jedikiah's plan by broadcasting an emergency telepathy signal. Number two, as we find out once they get back to Robowski's ship, Peter was not aware of the emergence of the Tomorrow People in 1977, he wouldn't be expecting it for at least another 23 years. In other words, if human telepaths cannot jaunt long distances without aid, he might not have even thought it feasible -- remember, the TP have to fix a location in their minds, and if Peter had never been to London before, he wouldn't know where to go. I suppose that's point number three. Now speaking of plot holes, does anyone notice in "TBATG" that right after Seth Bartlett is wounded and sent to the hospital, that in the next frame, either the same actor or a doppleganger is seen walking the hallway right in front of Stephen? Marcell J. Elsegood Sinfonian, Zeta Sigma, 1994 - "A noble spirit embiggens the smallest man" ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: Doctor TOC Subject: TPDIS: Limits to TP powers? Date: 05 Nov 2002 15:16:49 -0500 I'm new to the list, so I don't know if this has been discussed before or not, but I was wondering if any discussion of the limits of the TP's powers (both old and new series) had taken place. I'm thinking about writing up a role-playing adaptation of the Tomorrow People world, using the Tri_Stat system from Big Eyes, Small Mouth (an anime RPG that also serves nicely as a generic game), and some idea of the greater extent of the TP's powers would be a tremendous help. For instance, Jaunting. Is there any on-screen evidence to help estimate how far an original series TP can jaunt without a belt/band to aid navigation? Are they strictly limited to line of sight without a belt/band or help from TIM? Can a TP move additional mass beyond themselves and their clothing during a jaunt, or does that require a Matter Transporter? Is there ever any indication of how much more mass they can move before a matter transporter is required? Another question regards telepathy. ISTR in one of the original series stories that it was stated that TP's could only use telepathy with each other, and that they couldn't read or communicate with saps. This seems to have changed by the time of the Big Finish audios, and I can't recall if it stands in the new series. Can anyone clarify this for me? I'm something of a science nut (I'm a big fan of Shaun Hately's "Professor Cawston's Papers" articles), so I'll probably be posting quite a bit trying to figure out the metaphysical nuts and bolts of how the TP's powers work. cheers all, Doctor TOC P.S. In case this topic *has* been done to death, is there a way I can review past threads to avoid retreading tired old questions? -- The Reverend Doctor "The Other Chris" Secret Elf, Jive Talkin' Choirboy, God of Cowboy Spurs ICQ # 4814586 Daleks! 3D - http://users.rcn.com/otherchris/ Time War RPG - http://jump.to/TimeWar alt.tv.sevendays FAQ - http://welcome.to/7-Days The TOC Files - http://members.fortunecity.com/toc ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: Wendy Perkins Subject: Re: TPDIS: Limits to TP powers? Date: 05 Nov 2002 14:21:13 -0600 Hi Doctor TOC Welcome to the list. > >if any discussion of the limits of the TP's powers (both old and new > series) had taken place. Oddly enough, we're right in the middle of a discussion that may be able to help you out. Several people have been debating assorted nitpicks and perceived nitpicks in the original series. >Is there any on-screen evidence to help estimate how far an original series >TP can jaunt without a belt/band to aid navigation? IIRC there isn't. To the best of my knowledge, the distance they can jaunt is entirely dependent on their capacity to do the math involved (is that a fanfic explanation or a cannonical one?) So the distance a TP could jaunt without help would be unique to that TP. >and I can't recall if [telepathy] stands in the new series. Can anyone clarify this for me? Again, individual to the TP. Kevin, for example, says he could read minds long before he broke out. The others give no indication of their ability or inability to read minds, except that Megabyte could read Kevin's mind before *he* broke out. >is there a way I can review past threads to avoid retreading tired old questions? There isn't. So just ask away and we'll either debate or we won't. Frankly, there isn't much that hasn't been talked about at some point, but that doesn't mean we won't manage to find something new to say. ... Wendy ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: Doctor TOC Subject: Re: TPDIS: Idea: Nitpickers Guide to The Tomorrow People Date: 05 Nov 2002 15:32:34 -0500 Sorry for diving in, but this is exactly the sort of thing I was looking for :-) Marcell J. Elsegood wrote: > Shaun wrote; >> As hyperspace (in the TP world) has coordinates, there must be >> some spatial concept at work - it's just that it's a spatial >> concept that involves time, and well as our orthodox three >> dimensions. Things could easily be too far away through time >> and/or space for contact from another section of hyperspace - I >> don't see why you think there's an inconsistency here. Maybe I am >> missing something (-8 ISTR in the description of TP hyperspace from one of the books, it was stated that it is an unstable and fluid realm, and that its coordinates shift. If that's true, then what is close one moment may not be close the next. A personal theory regarding jaunting is that hyperspace is a realm that is highly malleable to thought, so that when a TP enters hyperspace, they then *move* that bit of hyperspace with them in it so that it is contiguous with the location in real space that they wish to travel to, then cross back into real space. If that's true, it's no wonder they need TIM, or a static navigational beacon (as in the new series). It's essentially unmappable, and jaunting without some kind of navigation aid would be tantamount to suicide. > Peter was not aware of the emergence of the > Tomorrow People in 1977, he wouldn't be expecting > it for at least another 23 years. Did they ever say why? I'm wondering what happened to lose the records of the original and second groups of TPs. 23 years bumps the recorded date of emergence that Peter was working on up to around 2000 AD, just about the point where the group of TP's under the adult John's leadership turns up in the Big Finish audios. Are they who his records spoke of? Doctor TOC -- The Reverend Doctor "The Other Chris" Secret Elf, Jive Talkin' Choirboy, God of Cowboy Spurs ICQ # 4814586 Daleks! 3D - http://users.rcn.com/otherchris/ Time War RPG - http://jump.to/TimeWar alt.tv.sevendays FAQ - http://welcome.to/7-Days The TOC Files - http://members.fortunecity.com/toc ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: "Jackie Clark" Subject: Re: TPDIS: Limits to TP powers? Date: 05 Nov 2002 20:30:46 -0000 Hi Doctor TOC Welcome to tpdis. I'll try to answer some of your questions to the best of my ability, although there are people more technically minded on the list than me. I'm not too sure if this has been discussed before but as there seem to be some new faces around lately perhaps the List Admins wont mind us repeating ourselves a bit! > > For instance, Jaunting. Is there any on-screen evidence to help estimate > how far an original series TP can jaunt without a belt/band to aid > navigation? Carol jaunted across London to see John and said it took five or six short hops. She lived in Hampstead but we don't know where he lived. I'm estimating half a mile would be the limit. Then again Stephen was made to jaunt to the 'hostel for homeless boys' in Shepard Bush without his belt, by John... Can someone work out how far that actually is from the Lab? And Liz went to Moscow! Are they strictly limited to line of sight without a > belt/band or help from TIM? The second answer above seems to tell us no. But I'd say that they had to be an older and more experienced TP. >Can a TP move additional mass beyond > themselves and their clothing during a jaunt, or does that require a > Matter Transporter? In the NS yes in the OS no! Is there ever any indication of how much more mass > they can move before a matter transporter is required? I've seen them carry small objects with them. Equipment, handbags etc... a few pounds perhaps? > Another question regards telepathy. ISTR in one of the original series > stories that it was stated that TP's could only use telepathy with each > other, and that they couldn't read or communicate with saps. This seems > to have changed by the time of the Big Finish audios, and I can't recall > if it stands in the new series. Can anyone clarify this for me? I'm not a NS expert...There is some mention in the OS books that a few Saps are telepathic... Doesn't Kevin read Megabytes mind to guess at the playing cards? Jackie ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: "Mike Stone" Subject: TPDIS: Quick NS questions Date: 05 Nov 2002 15:17:16 -0600 Now that I've had the opportunity to watch a few episodes of the New Series now (just got through Origin Story), I was wondering if anyone knew why Mr. Price left the show, and exactly at what point in the series? Naturally, I'd read a few things on some members' web sites, but don't remember the details. Although I haven't seen 'Monsoon Man' yet, I do recall quite a few list members mentioning that they didn't care for this particular episode. I wonder if it was at this point when the writers and/or directors lost the original team, and had some difficulties getting back up to speed? In any case, I've thoroughly been enjoying the NS so far. It's not 'my' Tomorrow People, but do wonder where in the world I was during the original airings that I missed them? :-) Thanks, Mike ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: "Carol Bevis" Subject: Re: TPDIS: Check this out! Date: 05 Nov 2002 20:58:52 -0000 If you value your life, don't even think about it! Carol PS. Re: List birthdays: I hope these lists last at least another 7 years, I only hope my current story doesn't take that long to complete!;) ----- Original Message ----- Sent: Monday, November 04, 2002 9:27 PM > Hi Carol, > > >It seems I've turned out as Ami and I'm married to someone who turned > out > >as Adam. How about that? > > Are you sure you're not mostly like Carol from the original series. (big > cheeky grin) > > :-) > > Mike Stone > > ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: CMento6653@aol.com Subject: Re: TPDIS: Limits to TP powers? Date: 05 Nov 2002 19:34:50 EST --part1_128.1a9942b0.2af9bdaa_boundary Content-Type: text/plain; charset="US-ASCII" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit In a message dated 11/5/02 3:13:05 PM Eastern Standard Time, otherchris@erols.com writes: > I'm something of a science nut (I'm a big fan of Shaun Hately's > "Professor Cawston's Papers" articles Where can I find these? Thanks. I would say a few miles is about all the TP can jaunt unaided. I also think that in the past some have said that a blindfold would stop some powers (I don't agree with that), binding their hands and feet(?!), drugs, mental problems?, disease or colds?, being nervous or afraid, or... --part1_128.1a9942b0.2af9bdaa_boundary Content-Type: text/html; charset="US-ASCII" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit In a message dated 11/5/02 3:13:05 PM Eastern Standard Time, otherchris@erols.com writes:


I'm something of a science nut (I'm a big fan of Shaun Hately's
"Professor Cawston's Papers" articles
Where can I find these? Thanks.

I would say a few miles is about all the TP can jaunt unaided. I also think that in the past some have said that a blindfold would stop some powers (I don't agree with that), binding their hands and feet(?!), drugs, mental problems?, disease or colds?, being nervous or afraid, or... --part1_128.1a9942b0.2af9bdaa_boundary-- ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: CMento6653@aol.com Subject: Re: TPDIS: Idea: Nitpickers Guide to The Tomorrow People Date: 05 Nov 2002 19:36:52 EST --part1_f8.24307108.2af9be24_boundary Content-Type: text/plain; charset="US-ASCII" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit In a message dated 11/5/02 3:28:11 PM Eastern Standard Time, otherchris@erols.com writes: > 23 years bumps the recorded > date of emergence that Peter was working on up to around 2000 AD, just > about the point where the group of TP's under the adult John's > leadership turns up in the Big Finish audios. Are they who his records > spoke of? > > I doubt it, unless they are only the start (how long does the first season of audios take place in? Two weeks? More?). I imagined it being more than just two. --part1_f8.24307108.2af9be24_boundary Content-Type: text/html; charset="US-ASCII" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit In a message dated 11/5/02 3:28:11 PM Eastern Standard Time, otherchris@erols.com writes:


23 years bumps the recorded
date of emergence that Peter was working on up to around 2000 AD, just
about the point where the group of TP's under the adult John's
leadership turns up in the Big Finish audios. Are they who his records
spoke of?



I doubt it, unless they are only the start (how long does the first season of audios take place in? Two weeks? More?). I imagined it being more than just two. --part1_f8.24307108.2af9be24_boundary-- ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: CMento6653@aol.com Subject: Re: TPDIS: Limits to TP powers? Date: 05 Nov 2002 19:38:42 EST --part1_12f.1a982adb.2af9be92_boundary Content-Type: text/plain; charset="US-ASCII" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Did Liz have a matter transporter on when she went to Russia? I seem to recall she didn't. Did she short hop all the way there? And she also carried back the Russian doll piece. --part1_12f.1a982adb.2af9be92_boundary Content-Type: text/html; charset="US-ASCII" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Did Liz have a matter transporter on when she went to Russia? I seem to recall she didn't. Did she short hop all the way there? And she also carried back the Russian doll piece. --part1_12f.1a982adb.2af9be92_boundary-- ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: Dark4eyes@aol.com Subject: Re: TPDIS: Limits to TP powers? Date: 05 Nov 2002 20:05:30 -0500 Did Liz have a matter transporter on when she went to Russia? I seem to recall she didn't. Did she short hop all the way there? And she also carried back the Russian doll piece. Yes, she was wearing a jaunting belt and apparently, if you're carrying something you don't need a matter transporter. ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: "Shaun Hately" Subject: Re: TPDIS: Limits to TP powers? Date: 06 Nov 2002 12:52:06 +1100 On 5 Nov 2002 at 19:34, CMento6653@aol.com wrote: > In a message dated 11/5/02 3:13:05 PM Eastern Standard Time, > otherchris@erols.com writes: > > > > I'm something of a science nut (I'm a big fan of Shaun Hately's > > "Professor Cawston's Papers" articles > > Where can I find these? Thanks. At The Lab (due for update this weekend) - http://www.alphalink.com.au/~drednort/thelab.html Yours Without Wax, Dreadnought Shaun Hately |webpage: http://www.alphalink.com.au/~drednort/thelab.html (ISTJ) |email: drednort@alphalink.com.au | ICQ: 6898200 "You know the very powerful and the very stupid have one thing in common. They don't alter their views to fit the facts. They alter the facts to fit the views. Which can be uncomfortable if you happen to be one of the facts that need altering." The Doctor - Doctor Who: The Face of Evil | Where am I: Frankston, Victoria, Australia ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: ThirdRomana@netscape.net (Kristin 'Duckie' Dunn) Subject: Re: TPDIS: Check this out! Date: 05 Nov 2002 22:25:53 -0500 It says I'm Ami... Humm... Okay maybe, but I was sort of crossing my fingers to be Jade. Okay so I do like yard sales, and interesting trinkets, but I don't talk with my arms THAT much ^_^*. But it is pretty right. Kristin -- -I come from the land of the free, home of the brave! -Scotland?!?! Rocky and Mac~Chicken Run To whom it may concern, can you please make it to where I don't take exams at 7.00am, and not have to take exams that don't finish till 10.00pm? My sanity would love you forever. Oh the frazzled mind of a college student during finals. The gods owe us favors. "You know you've been watching too much British TV when the accents start to sound normal." "What if everything you see is more that what you see - the person next to you is a warrior and the space that appears empty is a secret door to another world? What if something appears that shouldn't? You either dismiss it or accept that there is much more to the world than you think." Shigeru Miyamoto~Creator of Mario, Zelda, Donkey Kong, and Pikman. "It's great to be known, but it's even better to be known as strange." -Takeshi Kaga ~Iron Chef "tell me what you eat, and I'll tell you who you are." --Brillat-Savarin __________________________________________________________________ The NEW Netscape 7.0 browser is now available. Upgrade now! http://channels.netscape.com/ns/browsers/download.jsp Get your own FREE, personal Netscape Mail account today at http://webmail.netscape.com/ ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: Doctor TOC Subject: Re: TPDIS: Limits to TP powers? Date: 05 Nov 2002 23:10:15 -0500 Sorry about the weird formatting... Jackie Clark wrote: > > Carol jaunted across London to see John and said it took five or six short > hops. She lived in Hampstead but we don't know where he lived. I'm > estimating half a mile would be the limit. Then again Stephen was > made to jaunt to the 'hostel for homeless boys' in Shepard Bush > without his belt, by John... Can someone work out how far that > actually is from the Lab? Shepherd's Bush was described as practically around the corner from the original Lab, so Stephen's jaunt to the hostel was very short indeed, probably less than a mile. John lived in "North London", according to "The Visitor", and Hampstead is in the northern part of the city, so Carol and John probably didn't live more than ten miles apart (calculations based on my old copy of the London A to Z). > And Liz went to Moscow! This one's tough. I can't remember anything about this trip. What were the circumstances? >> Are they strictly limited to line of sight without a belt/band or help from TIM? > > The second answer above seems to tell us no. But I'd say that they had to be an older and more experienced TP. Makes sense. The books describe the belts as being necessary to help complete the calculations needed to safely navigate hyperspace, but the implication is that the calculations can be done without them. They just take longer and may not be as accurate. I'm guessing that the belts/bands just make jaunting easier and safer, making jaunting faster (no pausing to do the calculations) and less effort. Older TP's may continue using them simply because they're convenient, or possibly because they've become somewhat dependant on them, like people who let their math skills atrophy from using a calculator too much. The new series TP's may have had a lot of the navigation work done for them by the Ship, which could have provided a static hyperspace beacon for them to home in on, making them far less likely to get lost. Because they're "tuned in" to the ship, where-ever they are in hyperscae, they always have a fixed "landmark", so there's no chance of them vanishing off into the depths of hyperspace. Never having used a belt/band, they'd naturally become more adept at navigating without mechanical aid, though I'd imagine that destroying the Ship would severely compromise their ability to jaunt safely. There's something in Shaun's suggestion that the belts/bands also act to dampen the light and sound show generated by a body breaking the hyperspace barrier. >> Can a TP move additional mass beyond themselves and their clothing during a jaunt, or does that require a Matter Transporter? > > In the NS yes in the OS no! Interesting. Maybe the fact that the first jaunt the NS TP's made was so big might have something to do with how much matter they can move. Possibly, jaunting is a little bit like exercising a muscle; the more weight you shift, the faster your strength develops. Maybe jaunting to the other side of the world on your first go breaks down some of the barriers the mind might erect to something so scary, resulting in an increased jaunting capacity. Hmmm, I read "Monsoon Man" tonight, and there's quite a discrepancy between the OS and NS. In the NS, TPs seem fully capable of moving more than twice their own mass - Mr Bishop is no lightweight, and must weigh at least as much as the TP's who teleport him. Another interesting wrinkle is that NS Tps can have their jaunting power activated remotely by another TP, even when unconscious. Nothing like that was every seen in the OS, so either this is a new development for the new generation, or its another result of not relying on the belts/bands. > I've seen them carry small objects with them. Equipment, handbags etc... > a few pounds perhaps? Sounds fair. > I'm not a NS expert...There is some mention in the OS books that a few > Saps are telepathic It gets mentioned in "The Visitor", when a sap soldier overhears a telepathic conversation. I suppose I should have said non-telepaths instead of saps. >... Doesn't Kevin read Megabytes mind to guess at the playing cards? Yup, and there's a similar scene in the OS when Stephen accuses Carol of reading his mind (I think), implying that mind-reading between TPs is relatively easy. However, there's a scene in the BF audios when John and the rest of his new group of TPs use telepathy to confuse and lure a sap. There's no mention of the guy having telepathic abilities, so it seems that they *can* communicate with non-telepaths. Maybe it's just harder to get through to a non-telepath, or maybe they can "talk" to a non-telepath, but they can't read their minds? Doctor TOC -- The Reverend Doctor "The Other Chris" Secret Elf, Jive Talkin' Choirboy, God of Cowboy Spurs ICQ # 4814586 Daleks! 3D - http://users.rcn.com/otherchris/ Time War RPG - http://jump.to/TimeWar alt.tv.sevendays FAQ - http://welcome.to/7-Days The TOC Files - http://members.fortunecity.com/toc ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: Doctor TOC Subject: Re: TPDIS: Idea: Nitpickers Guide to The Tomorrow People Date: 05 Nov 2002 23:16:49 -0500 CMento6653@aol.com wrote: > > 23 years bumps the recorded > date of emergence that Peter was working on up to around 2000 AD, just > about the point where the group of TP's under the adult John's > leadership turns up in the Big Finish audios. Are they who his records > spoke of? > > I doubt it, unless they are only the start (how long does the first > season of audios take place in? Two weeks? More?). I imagined it being > more than just two. There's not much to go on in the first season of audios to estimate time, but given the way the difference in Paul's ability with his powers between "The New Gods" and "The Sign of Diolyx", it's got to be a few months at least. I'll listen to the series again over the next few days to check. And of course, Big Finish have announced that thee will be a new season of TP audio's for the coming year, so it seems at least possible that the new group are the ones Peter was expecting. If not, how come his records were so badly out? Doctor TOC -- The Reverend Doctor "The Other Chris" Secret Elf, Jive Talkin' Choirboy, God of Cowboy Spurs ICQ # 4814586 Daleks! 3D - http://users.rcn.com/otherchris/ Time War RPG - http://jump.to/TimeWar alt.tv.sevendays FAQ - http://welcome.to/7-Days The TOC Files - http://members.fortunecity.com/toc ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: "John A. Merullo" Subject: Re: TPDIS: Limits to TP powers? Date: 05 Nov 2002 22:15:36 -0600 Doctor TOC wrote: > I'm new to the list, so I don't know if this has been discussed before > or not, but I was wondering if any discussion of the limits of the TP's > powers (both old and new series) had taken place. I'm new too, so I'm glad you've asked! > For instance, Jaunting. Is there any on-screen evidence to help estimate > how far an original series TP can jaunt without a belt/band to aid > navigation? Are they strictly limited to line of sight without a > belt/band or help from TIM? Can a TP move additional mass beyond > themselves and their clothing during a jaunt, or does that require a > Matter Transporter? Is there ever any indication of how much more mass > they can move before a matter transporter is required? Didn't Mike jaunt all the way to the monastery where Hsui Tai was in Asia without his jaunting band? My memories are a little fuzzy on that one. > > Another question regards telepathy. ISTR in one of the original series > stories that it was stated that TP's could only use telepathy with each > other, and that they couldn't read or communicate with saps. This seems > to have changed by the time of the Big Finish audios, and I can't recall > if it stands in the new series. Can anyone clarify this for me? In "A Rift in Time" the TP seem to be able to read the sap minds around them so that language is not a barrier. It really is inconsistent over the course of the series as to whether they could read non-TP minds or not. The classic "breaking out" involves a flood of voices in one's head. So, whose voices were in John's head if there were no other TPs yet? Also, in "The Blue and the Green", Stephen manipulates the memories of the police officers so they will forget about Chris. How could he do this without knowing what their memories are? I rather think that it would be fairly pointless if they *couldn't* read saps' minds. Now here's another power that I've wondered about: Can the TP revive the dead? I recall in "A Man for Emily" that Elmer shot a shopkeeper. Stephen jaunted in, shot a ray out of his finger and healed him. TIM later refers to Stephen as "reviving" the shopkeeper. Also, on at least two occasions, John makes objects vanish. He points at a plate of food the Stephen is eating in "The Doomsday Men" which then disappears. I know that TIM can do that, but I don't recall it ever ebing stated that the TP can. And then in "Secret Weapon", he makes a teapot (I think) disappear in front of Tyso's mother. Anyone? ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: Beth E. Subject: Re: TPDIS: Quick NS questions Date: 05 Nov 2002 23:02:07 -0600 On Tuesday, November 5, 2002, at 03:17 PM, Mike Stone wrote: > Now that I've had the opportunity to watch a few episodes of the New > Series now (just got through Origin Story), I was wondering if anyone > knew why Mr. Price left the show, and exactly at what point in the > series? Naturally, I'd read a few things on some members' web sites, but > don't remember the details. I believe he was really only involved in The Origin Story. He wrote that episode but Grant Canthro and Lee Pressman wrote the other four stories either together or separately. The middle season (Culex and Monsoon Man) wasn't as good (IMHO) as it took them that long to find their footing. > > Although I haven't seen 'Monsoon Man' yet, I do recall quite a few list > members mentioning that they didn't care for this particular episode. I > wonder if it was at this point when the writers and/or directors lost > the original team, and had some difficulties getting back up to speed? I think it was actually a certain evil US cable channel picking the weaker scripts. > > In any case, I've thoroughly been enjoying the NS so far. It's not 'my' > Tomorrow People, but do wonder where in the world I was during the > original airings that I missed them? :-) Not watching Nickelodeon? I don't think I'd have known about them if I hadn't been watching Clarissa Explains it All and Roundhouse at the time. It wasn't well publicized outside of Nickelodeon unless you got the cable guide and flipped through the pages every month. (Unless, of course, you're in the UK, in which case this is a completely moot point.) Hope this helps, Tigger ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: "Scott S. Goldman" Subject: Re: TPDIS: Limits to TP powers? Date: 06 Nov 2002 02:19:40 -0500 --=======5F976BE8======= Content-Type: text/plain; x-avg-checked=avg-ok-6F92588F; charset=us-ascii; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit At 10:15 PM 11/5/2002 -0600, you wrote: >In "A Rift in Time" the TP seem to be able to read the sap minds around >them so that language is not a barrier. It really is inconsistent over the >course of the series as to whether they could read non-TP minds or not. >The classic "breaking out" involves a flood of voices in one's head. So, >whose voices were in John's head if there were no other TPs yet? In One Law (Mike's breakout episode) they deal with this... When they first hear Mike (a telepathic giggle) they discuss their various breakouts... John says something like "girls (breakouts) are usually worse" and then goes on to say that His wasn't so bad, he didn't have the telepaths trying to make contact (I read that as no voices)... That's when they go on to agree to maintain a 'radio silence until the new tp is found.. --=======5F976BE8======= Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii; x-avg=cert; x-avg-checked=avg-ok-6F92588F Content-Disposition: inline --- Outgoing mail is certified Virus Free. Checked by AVG anti-virus system (http://www.grisoft.com). Version: 6.0.410 / Virus Database: 231 - Release Date: 10/31/2002 --=======5F976BE8=======-- ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: littlemouse@comcast.net Subject: RE: TPDIS: Idea: Nitpickers Guide to The Tomorrow People Date: 06 Nov 2002 07:20:53 -0600 Well didn't they have to stay hidden because they would be killed or imprison might be the reason Peter didn't know about them. But then again since the British grovement knew about them after the episode Secret Weapon knock that theory out the window... hmm Did they ever say why? I'm wondering what happened to lose the records of the original and second groups of TPs. 23 years bumps the recorded date of emergence that Peter was working on up to around 2000 AD, just about the point where the group of TP's under the adult John's leadership turns up in the Big Finish audios. Are they who his records spoke of? ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: littlemouse@comcast.net Subject: RE: TPDIS: Limits to TP powers? Date: 06 Nov 2002 07:39:40 -0600 Also didn't Stephen jaunt a little distance to get ahead of uh what his name in The Doomsday Man to talk to him without a belt? I wonder how far that was.. ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: Doctor TOC Subject: Re: TPDIS: Limits to TP powers? Date: 06 Nov 2002 10:31:12 -0500 John A. Merullo wrote: > > Didn't Mike jaunt all the way to the monastery where Hsui Tai was in > Asia without his jaunting band? My memories are a little fuzzy on that one. Mine are too, unfortunately. This is the bit where he jaunts out of a glider, right? Can't recall if he was wearing a band or not then, but they seemed to wear them all the time at that point, so it seems unlikely he did it unaided. Can anyone provide less fuzzy details? > In "A Rift in Time" the TP seem to be able to read the sap minds around > them so that language is not a barrier. Forgot about this. The inconsistency is annoying, because they *do* state quite explicitly in the early series that TP's can't read sap minds. As I recall it, this was said to a sap, so it could have been a fib just to stop a nervous sap from freaking out, or it could have meant "can't" in the same way normal folks can't kill people without consequences - implying that it's a rule, and not a physical or biological law. > The classic "breaking out" involves a flood of voices in one's > head. So, whose voices were in John's head if there were no other TPs > yet? Well, the series did distinguish between common telepaths and TPs. In "The Visitor" the point is made that there are some saps with telepathy, but that doesn't make them Tomorrow People. So there could well be telepathic "chatter" before the TPs started breaking out. > Also, in "The Blue and the Green", Stephen manipulates the > memories of the police officers so they will forget about Chris. How > could he do this without knowing what their memories are? This isn't so difficult. Hypnosis can do the same thing without the hypnotist being able to read minds. > I rather think that it would be fairly pointless if they *couldn't* read > saps' minds. Agreed. > Now here's another power that I've wondered about: Can the TP revive the > dead? I recall in "A Man for Emily" that Elmer shot a shopkeeper. > Stephen jaunted in, shot a ray out of his finger and healed him. TIM > later refers to Stephen as "reviving" the shopkeeper. There's also the healing trick Adam pulls off in "Origin Story", and later in "The Culex Experiment". The first time he uses the power, he's practically bringing someone back from the dead. I'd posit that this is an advanced form of "energy healing", a modern practice where practitioners use their own biological energy field to bolster and boost a patient's field, encouraging their own natural healing process. > Also, on at least two occasions, John makes objects vanish. He points at > a plate of food the Stephen is eating in "The Doomsday Men" which then > disappears. I know that TIM can do that, but I don't recall it ever > ebing stated that the TP can. And then in "Secret Weapon", he makes a > teapot (I think) disappear in front of Tyso's mother. > Anyone? Hmmmm. Interesting, and kind of scary too. John's powers seem far more advanced than any of the other TPs (we hear him performing telekinesis at a molecular level in one of the BF audios, fusing the panels of a roof closed). I'd suggest that this is simply another expression of their jaunting ability. A plate of food and a teapot can't weigh more than a coupe of pounds, and most TPs move more than that in clothing when they jaunt. Could John have simply moved the "hole" he makes when he jaunts and effectively dumped the objects into hyperspace? Doctor TOC -- The Reverend Doctor "The Other Chris" Secret Elf, Jive Talkin' Choirboy, God of Cowboy Spurs ICQ # 4814586 Daleks! 3D - http://users.rcn.com/otherchris/ Time War RPG - http://jump.to/TimeWar alt.tv.sevendays FAQ - http://welcome.to/7-Days The TOC Files - http://members.fortunecity.com/toc ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: ThirdRomana@netscape.net (Kristin 'Duckie' Dunn) Subject: Re: TPDIS: Limits to TP powers? Date: 06 Nov 2002 12:52:19 -0500 Doctor TOC wrote: >Sorry about the weird formatting... > >Jackie Clark wrote: >  > >  > And Liz went to Moscow! > >This one's tough. I can't remember anything about this trip. What were >the circumstances? > If memory serves, and it hasn't been ding too well lately, Liz did have a jaunting belt when she went to Moscow. Also Col. Masters gave her cooredents to where she was going in Moscow. IIRC he also went back to the lab just before she had to return to Col. Masters (and company) and had John and Tim look at what she brought back. But then again, because of the corr. given by Masters, maybe she didn't have the belt on. Eh this is making my head hurt (geeze I hate midterms!) Kristin -- RHA Generial Assembly Rep. Thomson Hall Miami University (Ohio) 3rd year middle childhood education major -I come from the land of the free, home of the brave! -Scotland?!?! Rocky and Mac~Chicken Run To whom it may concern, can you please make it to where I don't take exams at 7.00am, and not have to take exams that don't finish till 10.00pm? My sanity would love you forever. Oh the frazzled mind of a college student during finals. The gods owe us favors. "You know you've been watching too much British TV when the accents start to sound normal." "What if everything you see is more that what you see - the person next to you is a warrior and the space that appears empty is a secret door to another world? What if something appears that shouldn't? You either dismiss it or accept that there is much more to the world than you think." Shigeru Miyamoto~Creator of Mario, Zelda, Donkey Kong, and Pikman. "It's great to be known, but it's even better to be known as strange." -Takeshi Kaga ~Iron Chef "tell me what you eat, and I'll tell you who you are." --Brillat-Savarin __________________________________________________________________ The NEW Netscape 7.0 browser is now available. Upgrade now! http://channels.netscape.com/ns/browsers/download.jsp Get your own FREE, personal Netscape Mail account today at http://webmail.netscape.com/ ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: Doctor TOC Subject: Re: TPDIS: Limits to TP powers? Date: 06 Nov 2002 14:03:15 -0500 Kristin 'Duckie' Dunn wrote: > > If memory serves, and it hasn't been ding too well lately, Liz did > have a jaunting belt when she went to Moscow. Also Col. Masters > gave her cooredents to where she was going in Moscow. Good, that helps if it was effectively a standard jaunt. With a belt/band, it seems that OS TPs can travel anywhere on the globe with relative ease. I'd have been a bit miffed if it had been done sans navigation aid. > Eh this is making my head hurt (geeze I hate midterms!) Hang in there, Kristin. They don't last forever! Doctor TOC -- The Reverend Doctor "The Other Chris" Secret Elf, Jive Talkin' Choirboy, God of Cowboy Spurs ICQ # 4814586 Daleks! 3D - http://users.rcn.com/otherchris/ Time War RPG - http://jump.to/TimeWar alt.tv.sevendays FAQ - http://welcome.to/7-Days The TOC Files - http://members.fortunecity.com/toc ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: "Jackie Clark" Subject: Re: TPDIS: Limits to TP powers? Date: 06 Nov 2002 21:26:45 -0000 This is a varied mail in response to many ideas raised over the past 24 hours... I'm listening to 'Deadliest Species' as I type this... I just noticed that Paul jaunted holding onto Holos and she must be quite a large mass to move by a jaunt rather than TK... Another thing that stuck in my mind is that Paul broke out a few weeks earlier but is still learning to jaunt effectively... Elena says that he may be able to learn how to deflect bullets but it will take years to learn that sort of control. This may explain why John has much stonger and more refined powers than the others... he was the first. In Paul's break out scene (I listened to New Gods yesterday) when Elena and John jaunt into the crowd Elena mentions that there are so many minds present it will be difficult to find Paul amongst them... doesn't this imply that they can read Sap minds? Perhaps reading minds for specific details is not possible but empathically sensing their moods etc is possible? One last point. Are we accepting BF audios as canon? I know that there are some people on the list who treat it as an alternative universe. Ok CD just finished... I'm jaunting off to bed now... Jackie ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: alpropes Subject: Re: TPDIS: Limits to TP powers? Date: 06 Nov 2002 15:56:33 -0600 (CST) Here's some of my thoughts, dropped in under the various comments... --- Aaron Lee Propes Tomorrow People Audio Reviews - http://www2.bitstream.net/~alpropes/tp On Wed, 6 Nov 2002, Jackie Clark wrote: > I'm listening to 'Deadliest Species' as I type this... I just noticed that > Paul jaunted holding onto Holos and she must be quite a large mass to move > by a jaunt rather than TK... I'm wondering if this was accepted as an ability because it was done in the New Series; there was the vague, but accepted, acknowledgement of the NS in the same CD. > In Paul's break out scene (I listened to New Gods yesterday) when Elena and > John jaunt into the crowd Elena mentions that there are so many minds > present it will be difficult to find Paul amongst them... doesn't this imply > that they can read Sap minds? In "The Dirtiest Business" and "The Blue and The Green" there's references to mucking with the memories of Saps: the priest that Stephen is using as a cover, and the police that apprehended Chris, respectively. So, I would say the definition of what TPs can do to Saps has been "fluid" at best. You could also extend the interpretation to include all the latent telepaths, that never broke out, coupled with good old fashioned claustrophobia. :) > Perhaps reading minds for specific details is not possible but empathically > sensing their moods etc is possible? I don't think it's ever been explicitly spelled out; if I recall correctly, the idea they couldn't muck about in the minds of Saps was referenced to in the first season, and then never mentioned again. > One last point. Are we accepting BF audios as canon? I know that there are > some people on the list who treat it as an alternative universe. My feeling is yes: it's a direct continuation of the television series, including some of the same actors with no changes from the original premise. But my judgement is clouded that, aside from the first episode, I've never seen the New Series (someone sent me a tape - I don't have cable/satellite), and until I heard that Big Finish was reviving the series, hadn't read any of the fan fiction or books. > Ok CD just finished... I'm jaunting off to bed now... Jealous. Is it just me, or are most office buildings in the U.S. fitted with Psi-dampening equipment? :) Aaron > Jackie > ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: Doctor TOC Subject: Re: TPDIS: Limits to TP powers? Date: 06 Nov 2002 17:06:53 -0500 Jackie Clark wrote: > > I'm listening to 'Deadliest Species' as I type this... I just noticed > that Paul jaunted holding onto Holos and she must be quite a large > mass to move by a jaunt rather than TK... Nicely spotted! I'd missed that one. > This may explain why John has much stonger and more refined powers > than the others... he was the first. True. I'd always assumed that was why he had a much broader range of abilities, and why things like his telekinesis were so much more powerful. Since he seems capable of molecular level TK in the BF audios, one wonders what he's going to be capable of in the future... > In Paul's break out scene (I listened to New Gods yesterday) when > Elena and John jaunt into the crowd Elena mentions that there are so > many minds present it will be difficult to find Paul amongst them... > doesn't this imply that they can read Sap minds? Not really. There could well be a qualitative difference between scanning for a specific mind amongst many, and searching through someone's mind for information. It'd be a bit like trying to listen out for a single english-speaking voice in a roomful of people talking gibberish. Though you wouldn't be able to understand the majority of the voices, their sheer volume would make it hard to locate the single one you *could* understand. > Perhaps reading minds for specific details is not possible but > empathically sensing their moods etc is possible? This makes sense to me. Non-telepaths could be very crude transmitters, making it possible for them to produce psychic "noise", making it very hard for TPs to retrieve specific information from them, but making *general* information possible. > One last point. Are we accepting BF audios as canon? I know that > there are some people on the list who treat it as an alternative > universe. Good point. I consider them canon. They feature the original cast, they are linked to both the original and new series, and they largely follow the tone of the original stories. Roger Price isn't involved in the audios, but then he wasn't involved in most of the NS either, so I think there's a fair argument that the CDs should be considered canon. My preference has always been to include as much as possible into the canon, unless it's blantantly contradictory or can't be resolved through a bit of thinking. Heck, if I could get my hands on the TP comic strips from "Look-In", I'd work pretty hard at incorporating them as well. Alas, I haven't seen any of those strips for years. However, in deference to the differing personal canons that may be held on the list, I always give greater weight to the original series first, followed by the new series, then the books, and lastly the audios. I try to provide attribution for the "facts" we discuss, so that folks can make up their own mind about whether or not they accept it as valid or not. Doctor TOC -- The Reverend Doctor "The Other Chris" Secret Elf, Jive Talkin' Choirboy, God of Cowboy Spurs ICQ # 4814586 Daleks! 3D - http://users.rcn.com/otherchris/ Time War RPG - http://jump.to/TimeWar alt.tv.sevendays FAQ - http://welcome.to/7-Days The TOC Files - http://members.fortunecity.com/toc ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: CMento6653@aol.com Subject: Re: TPDIS: Limits to TP powers? Date: 06 Nov 2002 21:33:59 EST --part1_12f.1ab047e4.2afb2b17_boundary Content-Type: text/plain; charset="US-ASCII" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit In a message dated 11/5/02 11:06:11 PM Eastern Standard Time, otherchris@erols.com writes: > Shepherd's Bush was described as practically around the corner from the > original Lab, so Stephen's jaunt to the hostel was very short indeed, > probably less than a mile hUH? In what episode? I mean where was it described as being that close to Shepard's Bush? --part1_12f.1ab047e4.2afb2b17_boundary Content-Type: text/html; charset="US-ASCII" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit In a message dated 11/5/02 11:06:11 PM Eastern Standard Time, otherchris@erols.com writes:


Shepherd's Bush was described as practically around the corner from the
original Lab, so Stephen's jaunt to the hostel was very short indeed,
probably less than a mile
hUH? In what episode? I mean where was it described as being that close to Shepard's Bush? --part1_12f.1ab047e4.2afb2b17_boundary-- ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: CMento6653@aol.com Subject: Re: TPDIS: Quick NS questions Date: 06 Nov 2002 21:36:06 EST --part1_c5.2bd10114.2afb2b96_boundary Content-Type: text/plain; charset="US-ASCII" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit In a message dated 11/6/02 12:02:11 AM Eastern Standard Time, tptigger42@earthlink.net writes: > > I think it was actually a certain evil US cable channel picking the > weaker scripts. > > Really? So now we're blaming the US channel? Were there any stronger scripts? --part1_c5.2bd10114.2afb2b96_boundary Content-Type: text/html; charset="US-ASCII" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit In a message dated 11/6/02 12:02:11 AM Eastern Standard Time, tptigger42@earthlink.net writes:



I think it was actually a certain evil US cable channel picking the
weaker scripts.



Really? So now we're blaming the US channel? Were there any stronger scripts? --part1_c5.2bd10114.2afb2b96_boundary-- ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: "Shaun Hately" Subject: Re: TPDIS: Limits to TP powers? Date: 07 Nov 2002 14:01:12 +1100 On 6 Nov 2002 at 21:33, CMento6653@aol.com wrote: > In a message dated 11/5/02 11:06:11 PM Eastern Standard Time, > otherchris@erols.com writes: > > > > Shepherd's Bush was described as practically around the corner from the > > original Lab, so Stephen's jaunt to the hostel was very short indeed, > > probably less than a mile > > hUH? In what episode? I mean where was it described as being that close to > Shepard's Bush? It's in the novelisation of 'One Law' (AFAIK, no clear statement is made in the episode): "In the Lab, TIM was busying himself getting up to date on the local and national news, and listening in on the secret government and police radio and telephone networks to find out what was going on in the world above his Underground station. 'Something interesting happened last night,' he announced when he had put together the pieces of the police radio messages. John, who was alone in the Lab, looked up from his breakfast copy of the Times. 'What, TIM?' 'This morning two crooks were found locked in the strongroom of the National Victoria bank in Shepherd's Bush.' 'That's just around the corner, but so what? We don't usually bother with bank robbers.' " http://www.alphalink.com.au/~drednort/lablocus.html is an analysis of the evidence for the Lab's location. Yours Without Wax, Dreadnought Shaun Hately |webpage: http://www.alphalink.com.au/~drednort/thelab.html (ISTJ) |email: drednort@alphalink.com.au | ICQ: 6898200 "You know the very powerful and the very stupid have one thing in common. They don't alter their views to fit the facts. They alter the facts to fit the views. Which can be uncomfortable if you happen to be one of the facts that need altering." The Doctor - Doctor Who: The Face of Evil | Where am I: Frankston, Victoria, Australia ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: CMento6653@aol.com Subject: Re: TPDIS: Limits to TP powers? Date: 06 Nov 2002 22:05:12 EST --part1_179.112df84e.2afb3268_boundary Content-Type: text/plain; charset="US-ASCII" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Thanks for the info about Shepard's Bush! --part1_179.112df84e.2afb3268_boundary Content-Type: text/html; charset="US-ASCII" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Thanks for the info about Shepard's Bush! --part1_179.112df84e.2afb3268_boundary-- ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: "Mike Stone" Subject: RE: TPDIS: Quick NS questions Date: 06 Nov 2002 22:24:21 -0600 Hi Beth, > I believe [Price] was really only involved in The Origin Story. He wrote > that episode but Grant Canthro and Lee Pressman wrote the other four > stories either together or separately. One thing I noticed about the new series, is the comedy and comedic lines. I thought the comedy was better executed in the NS, and it reminded me a lot of "You Can't Do That On Television." So that makes sense. Lee Pressman sounds familiar too -- where have I heard that name before? > I think it was actually a certain evil US cable channel picking the > weaker scripts. I do miss the earlier days of Nickelodeon. Was it actually a Canadian owned network, or American? > It's not 'my' Tomorrow People, but do wonder where in the world I was > during the original airings that I missed them? :-) > > Not watching Nickelodeon? If it was in the mid 90's, I was still in graduate school, which is probably why. I couldn't even afford a TV, much less cable at the time! :-) > It wasn't well publicized outside of Nickelodeon unless you got the cable > guide and flipped through the pages every month. That's too bad, as the NS was quite worth watching, IMO. I get the feeling that the OS was fairly well publicized in its day(?). Oh, I did forget to ask one thing; I'm still watching the Culex Experiment, but I'm wondering what happened to the girl (Lisa) from the Origin Story? Did she get the boot, or move on to bigger, better things? > Hope this helps, It did, thanks! :-) Mike Stone ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: Jane Starr Subject: RE: TPDIS: Quick NS questions Date: 06 Nov 2002 22:03:23 -0700 At 10:24 PM 06/11/2002 -0600, Mike Stone wrote: >I do miss the earlier days of Nickelodeon. Was it actually a Canadian >owned network, or American? American - we don't get it up here in the Great White North. That's why I never knew there was a "new series" until I discovered this list. Our equivalent to Nick is YTV (that Y is for Youth or Young, not Yorkshire), and I think they may have been responsible for producing "You Can't Do Than On Television" and quite a few other shows that Nick bought. Canada produces a surprising amount of television that hardly anyone knows is Canadian. It's rare to have a show like "Forever Knight" that actually admitted to being set in Toronto. >That's too bad, as the NS was quite worth watching, IMO. I get the >feeling that the OS was fairly well publicized in its day(?). I was the only one I knew who watched it in the 70's in Canada - it wasn't well known here at all, although CBC was playing it Saturday mornings and it usually got a small episode summary in the TV guide (unusual for Saturday AM TV at that time). Different in the UK, of course - LOTS of PR and tie-ins there. The OS got re-run in the mid or late 80s on YTV, and I re-watched it then, finally managing to see all the episodes. I was SOOO disappointed when I realized I had seen all the episodes and there weren't any more to look forward to! I'm looking forward to introducing my kids to it - my 13 year old loves the CDs. We just don't have a DVD player yet (real soon, now :) ) Jane in Edmonton "Quick, Min, the wick's gone out on the engine!" -H. Crun (the Goon show). ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: Beth E. Subject: Re: TPDIS: Quick NS questions Date: 07 Nov 2002 12:29:59 -0600 Combining several posts on the same thread. On Wednesday, November 6, 2002, at 08:36 PM, CMento6653@aol.com wrote: > Really? So now we're blaming the US channel? Were there any stronger > scripts [than Culex and Monsoon Man]? Apparently (and I'm pretty sure this info came from someone on this list, so correct me if I'm wrong), Culex and Monsoon Man were pitched at the same time as Ramases Connection -- really, if you were an exec, which would you pick MM or RC? Then Mike S. wrote: > So that makes > sense. Lee Pressman sounds familiar too -- where have I heard that name > before? Sorry, I don't know > If it was in the mid 90's, I was still in graduate school, which is > probably why. I couldn't even afford a TV, much less cable at the time! > :-) 92-94. > Oh, I did forget to ask one thing; I'm still watching the Culex > Experiment, but I'm wondering what happened to the girl (Lisa) from the > Origin Story? Did she get the boot, or move on to bigger, better things? I think she wanted to get away from acting. Then subsequently changed her mind. Also, the Origin Story started shooting in Florida and then production was moved to the UK following the original pilot (most of which was never aired as part of Origin Story), so she simply may have been unwilling to move. She was never mentioned in the series (at least on TV) again. Tigger ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: "E.R. Stanway" Subject: TPDIS: Tomorrow People material Date: 07 Nov 2002 21:39:36 +0000 (GMT) Since we were recently discussing what comprises canon material I was wondering if there is a definitive list of material connected with the Tomorrow People. For example I know there was one annual produced for the TP in 1979 and strips in Look In annuals but was there any other annuals? 1979 seems awfully late to produce the first one for a series that was popular in the early 1970's. And then there's other less directly connected material. For example there's a spoof of the Tomorrow People in one Doctor Who book that's so amazingly obvious I'm surprised the author wasn't sued. Are people aware of any other spoofs/take offs/references to the Tomorrow People in otherwise unrelated material? I'm just curious, Elizabeth ___________________________________________________________________ Elizabeth Stanway ers24@cam.ac.uk http://www.geocities.com/CapeCanaveral/8403 "You can tell how far we have to go when FORTRAN is the language of Supercomputers." ___________________________________________________________________ ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: "David Yates" Subject: Re: TPDIS: Limits to TP powers? Date: 07 Nov 2002 22:01:59 -0000 > > In "A Rift in Time" the TP seem to be able to read the sap minds around > > them so that language is not a barrier. > > > Forgot about this. The inconsistency is annoying, because they *do* > state quite explicitly in the early series that TP's can't read sap > minds. As I recall it, this was said to a sap, so it could have been a > fib just to stop a nervous sap from freaking out, or it could have meant > "can't" in the same way normal folks can't kill people without > consequences - implying that it's a rule, and not a physical or > biological law. Welcome to the list. Its good to have a topic we can get our teeth into! I feel that there's a difference between the ability to interpret language and actively scanning someone's memories and private thought. Language is probably on the surface of the mind whereas the more private stuff is deeper, requiring an active choice to scan, or not to scan. As Stephen was able to scan, and erase sections of the police inspector's (rather limited) mind in TBATG, then they obviously CAN scan sap minds....perhaps they simply choose not to unless its really necessary. Mind you, Stephen was his usual smug self (Sorry Stephen fans!) as he returned to the Lab to report on the success of his mission, therefore I don't think its a great barrier stopping them from reading minds, like the Prime Barrier, more a question of good manners?? David. ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: Jeremy Rogers Subject: Re: TPDIS: Quick NS questions Date: 07 Nov 2002 23:14:24 GMT "Beth E." in message wrote: > Combining several posts on the same thread. > On Wednesday, November 6, 2002, at 08:36 PM, CMento6653@aol.com wrote: > > Really? So now we're blaming the US channel? Were there any stronger > > scripts [than Culex and Monsoon Man]? > Apparently (and I'm pretty sure this info came from someone on this > list, so correct me if I'm wrong), Culex and Monsoon Man were pitched at > the same time as Ramases Connection -- really, if you were an exec, > which would you pick MM or RC? The storylines of the 4 stories made were all pitched at the same time, along with 6 others. Culex and MM were made in a hurry compared with RC and LS - the scripts only went through 1 re-write compared with 3 or 4 for the next 2. Incidentally, although Culex and MM were billed as jointly written by Pressman and Cathro, in reality Culex was more or less entirely Cathro's and MM Pressman's. They had been a writing partnership for some years, but it was here that they started to part company. > Then Mike S. wrote: > > So that makes > > sense. Lee Pressman sounds familiar too -- where have I heard that name > > before? > Sorry, I don't know He has written a whole shed load of television programmes aimed at children, going back to the mid 1970s. Jez -- ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: Latimer84@aol.com Subject: Re: TPDIS: Quick NS questions Date: 07 Nov 2002 18:36:31 -0500 In a message dated 11/7/2002 6:14:24 PM Eastern Standard Time, jeremy.rogers@zetnet.co.uk writes: > The storylines of the 4 stories made were all pitched at the same time, > along with 6 others. > > Culex and MM were made in a hurry compared with RC and LS - the scripts > only went through 1 re-write compared with 3 or 4 for the next 2. > Does anyone know what the ideas for the unproduced episodes were? It'd be ubercool if we could hunt them down.... - Geoff ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: CMento6653@aol.com Subject: Re: TPDIS: Quick NS questions Date: 07 Nov 2002 22:40:14 EST --part1_149.220d88b.2afc8c1e_boundary Content-Type: text/plain; charset="US-ASCII" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit In a message dated 11/6/02 11:24:51 PM Eastern Standard Time, mike_stone65@hotmail.com writes: > One thing I noticed about the new series, is the comedy and comedic > lines. I thought the comedy was better executed in the NS, and it > reminded me a lot of "You Can't Do That On Television." So that makes > sense. Lee Pressman sounds familiar too -- where have I heard that name > before Sorry can't agree. I mean well I do. It was a lot like YOU CAN'T, which was funny and a comedy show. But it needed to be reigned in in THE TP. I mean YOU CAN'T was cute and funny because there were no reigns, no laws and no said story. THe Tp needed all of the things that U CAN'T lacked. It didn't really get them IMO. <>>>>>>>>>>>>>> Not sure but I believe it was American. They did have A LOT of foreign movies from all over the world, Canadian shows, British shows, and so many interesting things. --part1_149.220d88b.2afc8c1e_boundary Content-Type: text/html; charset="US-ASCII" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit In a message dated 11/6/02 11:24:51 PM Eastern Standard Time, mike_stone65@hotmail.com writes:


One thing I noticed about the new series, is the comedy and comedic
lines. I thought the comedy was better executed in the NS, and it
reminded me a lot of "You Can't Do That On Television." So that makes
sense. Lee Pressman sounds familiar too -- where have I heard that name
before
Sorry can't agree. I mean well I do. It was a lot like YOU CAN'T, which was funny and a comedy show. But it needed to be reigned in in THE TP. I mean YOU CAN'T was cute and funny because there were no reigns, no laws and no said story. THe Tp needed all of the things that U CAN'T lacked. It didn't really get them IMO.

<<I do miss the earlier days of Nickelodeon. Was it actually a Canadian
owned network, or American?>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>

Not sure but I believe it was American. They did have A LOT of foreign movies from all over the world, Canadian shows, British shows, and so many interesting things.

--part1_149.220d88b.2afc8c1e_boundary-- ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: CMento6653@aol.com Subject: Re: TPDIS: Quick NS questions Date: 07 Nov 2002 22:45:56 EST --part1_11c.1a107702.2afc8d74_boundary Content-Type: text/plain; charset="US-ASCII" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit In a message dated 11/7/02 1:34:56 PM Eastern Standard Time, tptigger42@earthlink.net writes: > Culex and Monsoon Man were pitched at > the same time as Ramases Connection -- really, if you were an exec, > which would you pick MM or RC? > > Uh, none of them. I mean RC was good but it did have those silly aliens in that silly fog stuff. Really silly. --part1_11c.1a107702.2afc8d74_boundary Content-Type: text/html; charset="US-ASCII" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit In a message dated 11/7/02 1:34:56 PM Eastern Standard Time, tptigger42@earthlink.net writes:


Culex and Monsoon Man were pitched at
the same time as Ramases Connection -- really, if you were an exec,
which would you pick MM or RC?



Uh, none of them. I mean RC was good but it did have those silly aliens in that silly fog stuff. Really silly. --part1_11c.1a107702.2afc8d74_boundary-- ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: CMento6653@aol.com Subject: Re: TPDIS: Limits to TP powers? Date: 07 Nov 2002 22:49:52 EST --part1_d7.201ad4f7.2afc8e60_boundary Content-Type: text/plain; charset="US-ASCII" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit In a message dated 11/7/02 5:01:37 PM Eastern Standard Time, David_M_Yates@msn.com writes: > deeper, requiring an active choice to scan, or not to scan. As Stephen was > able to scan, and erase sections of the police inspector's (rather limited) > mind in TBATG, then they obviously CAN scan sap minds....perhaps they simply > choose EEK! Forgot this. Maybe scanning isn't the same as reading. Maybe Stephen could just find the stuff about the Tp and aliens and could erase that. Maybe he can't really read the man's thoughts but just what his memories were? A stretch I know. --part1_d7.201ad4f7.2afc8e60_boundary Content-Type: text/html; charset="US-ASCII" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit In a message dated 11/7/02 5:01:37 PM Eastern Standard Time, David_M_Yates@msn.com writes:


deeper, requiring an active choice to scan, or not to scan. As Stephen was
able to scan, and erase sections of the police inspector's (rather limited)
mind in TBATG, then they obviously CAN scan sap minds....perhaps they simply
choose


EEK! Forgot this. Maybe scanning isn't the same as reading. Maybe Stephen could just find the stuff about the Tp and aliens and could erase that. Maybe he can't really read the man's thoughts but just what his memories were? A stretch I know. --part1_d7.201ad4f7.2afc8e60_boundary-- ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: CMento6653@aol.com Subject: Re: TPDIS: Quick NS questions Date: 07 Nov 2002 22:51:20 EST --part1_105.1f34105b.2afc8eb8_boundary Content-Type: text/plain; charset="US-ASCII" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit In a message dated 11/7/02 6:18:37 PM Eastern Standard Time, jeremy.rogers@zetnet.co.uk writes: > along with 6 others. > > I wonder what these six were about. --part1_105.1f34105b.2afc8eb8_boundary Content-Type: text/html; charset="US-ASCII" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit In a message dated 11/7/02 6:18:37 PM Eastern Standard Time, jeremy.rogers@zetnet.co.uk writes:


along with 6 others.



I wonder what these six were about. --part1_105.1f34105b.2afc8eb8_boundary-- ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: CMento6653@aol.com Subject: Re: TPDIS: Quick NS questions Date: 07 Nov 2002 22:52:19 EST --part1_1aa.b99c34d.2afc8ef3_boundary Content-Type: text/plain; charset="US-ASCII" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit The original series also had at least one unmade script for the finale after the story WAR OF THE EMPIRES. --part1_1aa.b99c34d.2afc8ef3_boundary Content-Type: text/html; charset="US-ASCII" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit The original series also had at least one unmade script for the finale after the story WAR OF THE EMPIRES. --part1_1aa.b99c34d.2afc8ef3_boundary-- ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: Doctor TOC Subject: Re: TPDIS: Limits to TP powers? Date: 07 Nov 2002 23:05:03 -0500 CMento6653@aol.com wrote: > > EEK! Forgot this. Maybe scanning isn't the same as reading. Maybe > Stephen could just find the stuff about the Tp and aliens and could > erase that. Maybe he can't really read the man's thoughts but just what > his memories were? A stretch I know. Not that much of a stretch. He could have just planted a compulsion to forget anything about the TPs and their friends, like a hypnotist would. There's no need to search out the specific memories, you just send a really powerful message the subject can't ignore, then leave it up to the subject to do the searching and erasing himself. No need to scan anything at all. Just because they can't read minds, doesn't mean they can't send to them (and we "see" them do this in the BF audios). I'd imagine it's strenuous though, and not something they'd do lightly. Doctor TOC -- The Reverend Doctor "The Other Chris" Secret Elf, Jive Talkin' Choirboy, God of Cowboy Spurs ICQ # 4814586 Daleks! 3D - http://users.rcn.com/otherchris/ Time War RPG - http://jump.to/TimeWar alt.tv.sevendays FAQ - http://welcome.to/7-Days The TOC Files - http://members.fortunecity.com/toc ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: "John A. Merullo" Subject: Re: TPDIS: Limits to TP powers? Date: 07 Nov 2002 22:59:46 -0600 Doctor TOC wrote: > >> Also, on at least two occasions, John makes objects vanish. He points >> at a plate of food the Stephen is eating in "The Doomsday Men" which >> then disappears. I know that TIM can do that, but I don't recall it >> ever ebing stated that the TP can. And then in "Secret Weapon", he >> makes a teapot (I think) disappear in front of Tyso's mother. >> Anyone? > > > > Hmmmm. Interesting, and kind of scary too. John's powers seem far more > advanced than any of the other TPs (we hear him performing telekinesis > at a molecular level in one of the BF audios, fusing the panels of a > roof closed). I'd suggest that this is simply another expression of > their jaunting ability. A plate of food and a teapot can't weigh more > than a coupe of pounds, and most TPs move more than that in clothing > when they jaunt. Could John have simply moved the "hole" he makes when > he jaunts and effectively dumped the objects into hyperspace? > > > Doctor TOC > That's possible. He may have also used telekinesis to diffuse the molecules of the (relatively small) objects. In one episode (Either "Revenge of Jedekiah" or "Worlds Away"--it's been nearly 20 years), Stephen repairs Tyso's mum's crystal ball after it shatters with "advanced psychokinesis: sticking molecules to other molecules. Simple when you know how!" Perhaps this is related. Okay, and on the subject of TK (or PK, depending on the script), in "Lost Gods", John comments that he can repair his glider with telekinesis, at which point Mike says "speaking of telekinesis" and changes clothes. At some point did the TP take up wearing AE suits full time, or did he somehow change his clothing with TK (and why didn't Elizabeth do that in "The Blue and the Green" instead of switching back and forth between the same two outfits ;-) ) John ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: Drew Thiele Subject: Re: TPDIS: Limits to TP powers? Date: 07 Nov 2002 21:16:41 -0800 --=======769463F0======= Content-Type: text/plain; x-avg-checked=avg-ok-12BF2944; charset=us-ascii; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit I can't really add much to this discussion, other than perhaps the differences between telepathic 'reading', and scanning. Telepathic "reading" is the ability to see the surface thoughts. That everyone possesses and radiates all the time. Some are focused on single or few thoughts, and others may be blank, or just scattered thoughts. Scanning, to me, is a 'no-no', ethically. Why? Because that is the deeper version of reading one's surface thoughts. To their hidden thoughts, memories, feelings, without permission. And no one likes their privacy invaded, perhaps the TP most of all. ;) *shrugs* I know this is slightly off track from the topic that's been going on, but thought I'd point it out... maybe spark another discussion too ;) And -- about the "limits" of TP's powers...How do you know there really were any? Other than self-imposed limits from their minds? There's a path that is out there that some people follow that talks about working with self-energy and psi to develop their abilities, but more to the point, that there isn't a limit, except to their imagination. -Drew --=======769463F0======= Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii; x-avg=cert; x-avg-checked=avg-ok-12BF2944 Content-Disposition: inline --- Outgoing mail is certified Virus Free. Checked by AVG anti-virus system (http://www.grisoft.com). Version: 6.0.408 / Virus Database: 230 - Release Date: 10/24/02 --=======769463F0=======-- ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: Doctor TOC Subject: Re: TPDIS: Limits to TP powers? Date: 08 Nov 2002 13:14:39 -0500 John A. Merullo wrote: > >> Could John have simply moved the "hole" he makes when >> he jaunts and effectively dumped the objects into hyperspace? > > That's possible. He may have also used telekinesis to diffuse the > molecules of the (relatively small) objects. In one episode (Either > "Revenge of Jedekiah" or "Worlds Away"--it's been nearly 20 years), > Stephen repairs Tyso's mum's crystal ball after it shatters with > "advanced psychokinesis: sticking molecules to other molecules. Simple > when you know how!" Perhaps this is related. That's a possibility, though it would result in a small cloud of particles that would be visible unless they were diffused over a very wide area or were very small indeed; they'd be the proverbial "puff of smoke". Also, breaking the molecules apart would take a tremendous amount of energy - not something you could do casually. There's also the fact that if it were easy, the TPs would do it more often. It easy to disarm an opponent if you can make there weapon simply vanish. > Okay, and on the subject of TK (or PK, depending on the script), in > "Lost Gods", John comments that he can repair his glider with > telekinesis, at which point Mike says "speaking of telekinesis" and > changes clothes. At some point did the TP take up wearing AE suits full > time, or did he somehow change his clothing with TK (and why didn't > Elizabeth do that in "The Blue and the Green" instead of switching back > and forth between the same two outfits ;-) ) I love this list! Thanks for reminding me that molecular PK was always part of the package (if something it took them a while to learn). I suppose it's possible that Mike just rearranged the molecules of his clothes, but it seems like a rather complex trick to do so casually. The apparent effortlessness of such an ability also raises some other problems; if they can do this sort of thing so easily, what's to stop them doing neat trick like turning lead to gold, or converting all the air in a room to nitrogen in order to render a target unconscious? It's a neat power, but the plot problems it raises are too great. Maybe Mike *was* wearing an AE suit (he was, after all, going up in a glider, and the prospect might have made him nervous enough to want some "insurance"), and used his PK to activate the suit's chameleon function? On the subject of molecular PK, my personal feeling is that it's a bit like welding; you can stick things together (like the crystal ball) or break them apart, but going further requires a lot of concentration and energy. Doctor TOC -- The Reverend Doctor "The Other Chris" Secret Elf, Jive Talkin' Choirboy, God of Cowboy Spurs ICQ # 4814586 Daleks! 3D - http://users.rcn.com/otherchris/ Time War RPG - http://jump.to/TimeWar alt.tv.sevendays FAQ - http://welcome.to/7-Days The TOC Files - http://members.fortunecity.com/toc ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: Doctor TOC Subject: Re: TPDIS: Limits to TP powers? Date: 08 Nov 2002 13:47:19 -0500 Drew Thiele wrote: > > Telepathic "reading" is the ability to see the surface thoughts. That > everyone possesses and radiates all the time. Some are focused on > single or few thoughts, and others may be blank, or just scattered > thoughts. Nicely put. I'm still currently in favour of the idea that TP's are largely unable to enter Sap minds and search around for memories, simply because (unless someone can come up with an example) I don't think we've ever seen them do it, and they stated they couldn't in the OS. I like the idea because it stops the TPs from being all-powerful, and makes them a little more vulnerable. I think if it in this way; Telepathic brains are powerful transmitters and receivers, capable of sensing psychic transmissions over great distances. Sap brains are transmitters too, only they aren't as focussed or as sensitive. For want of a better term, most of the time they're broadcasting low level "static", generating enough "noise" that a large gathering can partially mask the clear signal from an emerging telepath. The lack of focus makes them hard to read as well, rather like trying to read a book in which the printing is badly blurred. I'm guessing that its possible, but it's very hard work. Reading a telepathic mind is much easier, because they are clearer and more focussed (the increased intellectual capacity of most TPs mentioned in the books supports this idea of increased "clarity" of thought). Altering or deleting memories is still possible without knowing what those memories are. In that situation, the TP could send a very powerful signal to the target's unconscious mind, speaking to it directly and bypassing the conscious will - as with hypnosis - compelling it to "forget me and my friends" for example, or to recall something entirely different than what actually occurred. > Scanning, to me, is a 'no-no', ethically. Why? Because that is the > deeper version of reading one's surface thoughts. To their hidden > thoughts, memories, feelings, without permission. And no one likes > their privacy invaded, perhaps the TP most of all. ;) I agree with this. If the act of reading a mind is distasteful as well as difficult, this increases the chance that the TPs just aren't going to do it, despite the fact that it would save them a lot of trouble. Since we haven't seen much in the way of dishonesty among the TPs, its clear that they almost all have a highly developed ethical sense. On the subject of TP privacy, I've been wondering about that. Logically, the development of their abilities and the rise of a telepathic society would eventually result in a sort of planetary overmind, where privacy would no longer exist in any meaningful form. Have there been any examples of the TPs forming a "gestalt"? > *shrugs* I know this is slightly off track from the topic that's been > going on, but thought I'd point it out... maybe spark another discussion > too ;) Good points, all. > And -- about the "limits" of TP's powers...How do you know there really > were any? Other than self-imposed limits from their minds? There's a > path that is out there that some people follow that talks about working > with self-energy and psi to develop their abilities, but more to the > point, that there isn't a limit, except to their imagination. Shaun Hately wrote something similar about the power of belief in one of his "Professor Cawston" articles, which I agree with up to a point. Self-imposed limits, whether imposed consciously or uncosciously, are still limits, so I think it's still valid to discuss the range and depth of their powers. I know what you mean about the proposed lack of limits to human potential (my wife is an energy healer). My view is that, while there probably are no limits to TP potential, there are some limits imposed by the laws of physics and by their own flesh. TPs who express the full potential of their powers may be - literally - god-like, but I doubt they'd be human or even physical at that point. It strikes me that the TPs are limited to what they can actually handle, so the limits or their powers keep pace with their maturity and control. The idea of a TP who breaks those boundaries prematurely is both intriguing and terrifying at the same time. It may even be that the TPs are limited to what the rest of us can handle; it's possible that higher levels of power may generate psychic "fallout" that could prove psychologically damaging to saps in the vicinity, and can only be dealt with by a fully telepathic population. Hmmm, I'll have to apologise for the frequency and rambling length of my posts. I'm a writer and game designer by trade, and I find the whole TP concept absolutely fascinating. I'm finding this list most stimulating, but a side-effect is that I tend to go off on speculative flights of fancy :-) Doctor TOC -- The Reverend Doctor "The Other Chris" Secret Elf, Jive Talkin' Choirboy, God of Cowboy Spurs ICQ # 4814586 Daleks! 3D - http://users.rcn.com/otherchris/ Time War RPG - http://jump.to/TimeWar alt.tv.sevendays FAQ - http://welcome.to/7-Days The TOC Files - http://members.fortunecity.com/toc ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: "Carol Bevis" Subject: Re: TPDIS: Idea: Nitpickers Guide to The Tomorrow People Date: 08 Nov 2002 21:56:22 -0000 I've been watching the first 3 episodes of Rift in Time. They really do have problems don't they? Their historical accuracy really leaves much to be desired!! Britain was not colonised by the Romans until 43AD, even though the first invasion which ended with the Britons paying tribute was in the 1st century BC. If you're wondering where this is going, Stephen says (episode 2) that Peter is in the *year* 1AD, when there was no Roman settlement, rather than the *1st Century* AD. (See http://www.bbc.net.uk/history/ancient/prehistory/peoples_04.shtml for more details.) The Romans *did* at least *know* about the theories of steam power from the Greeks by this time. We know that they used both water power and coal, so steam power would not have been completely - dare I say it - alien. (See http://www.roman-empire.net/wwwboard/messages/442.html for a few more details.) One other thing. Why was Elizabeth wearing a light purple head covering? Purple was so expensive a colour that it was reserved for only the edges of the togas of senators, and would be an unlikely colour for using as a piece of head wear. Who was the historical consultant, Santa Claus??! (There wasn't one mentioned in the credits!) Talk about a Rift in Time. No kidding!:) In case you hadn't guessed I am a history fan, particularly of programmes like UK's channel 4 show the Time Team (3 day archaeological digs), so I like historical accuracy in time travel bits. If I find any more historical inaccuracies I will point them out - so watch this space. Regards, Carol ----- Original Message ----- Sent: Wednesday, November 06, 2002 4:16 AM > CMento6653@aol.com wrote: > > > > > 23 years bumps the recorded > > date of emergence that Peter was working on up to around 2000 AD, just > > about the point where the group of TP's under the adult John's > > leadership turns up in the Big Finish audios. Are they who his records > > spoke of? > > > > I doubt it, unless they are only the start (how long does the first > > season of audios take place in? Two weeks? More?). I imagined it being > > more than just two. > > > There's not much to go on in the first season of audios to estimate > time, but given the way the difference in Paul's ability with his powers > between "The New Gods" and "The Sign of Diolyx", it's got to be a few > months at least. I'll listen to the series again over the next few days > to check. > > And of course, Big Finish have announced that thee will be a new season > of TP audio's for the coming year, so it seems at least possible that > the new group are the ones Peter was expecting. If not, how come his > records were so badly out? > > > Doctor TOC > -- > The Reverend Doctor "The Other Chris" > Secret Elf, Jive Talkin' Choirboy, God of Cowboy Spurs > ICQ # 4814586 > Daleks! 3D - http://users.rcn.com/otherchris/ > Time War RPG - http://jump.to/TimeWar > alt.tv.sevendays FAQ - http://welcome.to/7-Days > The TOC Files - http://members.fortunecity.com/toc > > > ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: "Carol Bevis" Subject: Re: TPDIS: Limits to TP powers? Date: 08 Nov 2002 21:58:54 -0000 I don't think NS uses hyperspace. I have a theory that they create temporary mental wormholes to get themselves from one place to another, thereby bypassing hyperspace completely. It fits with Megabyte's explanation to Ami (on her first voluntary teleport) that she should "focus on where you are, and where he (Adam) is until the two meet" and would also explain how they manage to "pull each other through" (as I think of it) with no worry about hyperspace and all the hazards that go with it. At least that's how any stories I write will work. Regards, Carol ----- Original Message ----- Sent: Wednesday, November 06, 2002 4:10 AM > Sorry about the weird formatting... > > Jackie Clark wrote: > > > > Carol jaunted across London to see John and said it took five or six > short > > hops. She lived in Hampstead but we don't know where he lived. I'm > > estimating half a mile would be the limit. Then again Stephen was > > made to jaunt to the 'hostel for homeless boys' in Shepard Bush > > without his belt, by John... Can someone work out how far that > > actually is from the Lab? > > Shepherd's Bush was described as practically around the corner from the > original Lab, so Stephen's jaunt to the hostel was very short indeed, > probably less than a mile. John lived in "North London", according to > "The Visitor", and Hampstead is in the northern part of the city, so > Carol and John probably didn't live more than ten miles apart > (calculations based on my old copy of the London A to Z). > > > And Liz went to Moscow! > > This one's tough. I can't remember anything about this trip. What were > the circumstances? > > >> Are they strictly limited to line of sight without a belt/band or > help from TIM? > > > > The second answer above seems to tell us no. But I'd say that they > had to be an older and more experienced TP. > > Makes sense. The books describe the belts as being necessary to help > complete the calculations needed to safely navigate hyperspace, but the > implication is that the calculations can be done without them. They just > take longer and may not be as accurate. I'm guessing that the > belts/bands just make jaunting easier and safer, making jaunting faster > (no pausing to do the calculations) and less effort. Older TP's may > continue using them simply because they're convenient, or possibly > because they've become somewhat dependant on them, like people who let > their math skills atrophy from using a calculator too much. > > The new series TP's may have had a lot of the navigation work done for > them by the Ship, which could have provided a static hyperspace beacon > for them to home in on, making them far less likely to get lost. Because > they're "tuned in" to the ship, where-ever they are in hyperscae, they > always have a fixed "landmark", so there's no chance of them vanishing > off into the depths of hyperspace. Never having used a belt/band, they'd > naturally become more adept at navigating without mechanical aid, though > I'd imagine that destroying the Ship would severely compromise their > ability to jaunt safely. > > There's something in Shaun's suggestion that the belts/bands also act to > dampen the light and sound show generated by a body breaking the > hyperspace barrier. > > >> Can a TP move additional mass beyond themselves and their clothing > during a jaunt, or does that require a Matter Transporter? > > > > In the NS yes in the OS no! > > Interesting. Maybe the fact that the first jaunt the NS TP's made was so > big might have something to do with how much matter they can move. > Possibly, jaunting is a little bit like exercising a muscle; the more > weight you shift, the faster your strength develops. Maybe jaunting to > the other side of the world on your first go breaks down some of the > barriers the mind might erect to something so scary, resulting in an > increased jaunting capacity. > > Hmmm, I read "Monsoon Man" tonight, and there's quite a discrepancy > between the OS and NS. In the NS, TPs seem fully capable of moving more > than twice their own mass - Mr Bishop is no lightweight, and must weigh > at least as much as the TP's who teleport him. > > Another interesting wrinkle is that NS Tps can have their jaunting power > activated remotely by another TP, even when unconscious. Nothing like > that was every seen in the OS, so either this is a new development for > the new generation, or its another result of not relying on the belts/bands. > > > I've seen them carry small objects with them. Equipment, handbags etc... > > a few pounds perhaps? > > Sounds fair. > > > I'm not a NS expert...There is some mention in the OS books that a few > > Saps are telepathic > > It gets mentioned in "The Visitor", when a sap soldier overhears a > telepathic conversation. I suppose I should have said non-telepaths > instead of saps. > > >... Doesn't Kevin read Megabytes mind to guess at the playing cards? > > Yup, and there's a similar scene in the OS when Stephen accuses Carol of > reading his mind (I think), implying that mind-reading between TPs is > relatively easy. > > However, there's a scene in the BF audios when John and the rest of his > new group of TPs use telepathy to confuse and lure a sap. There's no > mention of the guy having telepathic abilities, so it seems that they > *can* communicate with non-telepaths. Maybe it's just harder to get > through to a non-telepath, or maybe they can "talk" to a non-telepath, > but they can't read their minds? > > Doctor TOC > -- > The Reverend Doctor "The Other Chris" > Secret Elf, Jive Talkin' Choirboy, God of Cowboy Spurs > ICQ # 4814586 > Daleks! 3D - http://users.rcn.com/otherchris/ > Time War RPG - http://jump.to/TimeWar > alt.tv.sevendays FAQ - http://welcome.to/7-Days > The TOC Files - http://members.fortunecity.com/toc > > > ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: "Carol Bevis" Subject: Re: TPDIS: Quick NS questions Date: 08 Nov 2002 21:45:39 -0000 I'll second that! :) Regards, Carol ----- Original Message ----- Sent: Thursday, November 07, 2002 11:36 PM > In a message dated 11/7/2002 6:14:24 PM Eastern Standard Time, jeremy.rogers@zetnet.co.uk writes: > > > The storylines of the 4 stories made were all pitched at the same time, > > along with 6 others. > > > > Culex and MM were made in a hurry compared with RC and LS - the scripts > > only went through 1 re-write compared with 3 or 4 for the next 2. > > > > > Does anyone know what the ideas for the unproduced episodes were? It'd be ubercool if we could hunt them down.... > > - Geoff > > ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: "Warren Hillsdon" Subject: TPDIS: The Doomsday Men - DVD Date: 09 Nov 2002 09:57:18 +1100 Anyone that is interested the cover shot of Doomsday Men is up at Blackstar. Warren http://www.blackstar.co.uk/video/item/7000000075160 ------------------ Warren@SciFiOz.com ICQ #5129727 MSN - Above email ------------------ ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: CMento6653@aol.com Subject: Re: TPDIS: Idea: Nitpickers Guide to The Tomorrow People Date: 08 Nov 2002 20:58:30 EST --part1_ae.308d01c3.2afdc5c6_boundary Content-Type: text/plain; charset="US-ASCII" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit In a message dated 11/8/02 5:15:13 PM Eastern Standard Time, tillicum@lineone.net writes: > in the 1st century > BC. If you're wondering where this is going, Stephen says this might show my ignorance but, I've always had problems with this, what exactly are the years of the 1st century BC? 1st Century AD? etc? I'd rather just call a year a year rather than use a century term but if you or anyone else can explain this, I'd appreciate it. I also seem to realize that the numbers in BC go backwards up to year 1 AD. --part1_ae.308d01c3.2afdc5c6_boundary Content-Type: text/html; charset="US-ASCII" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit In a message dated 11/8/02 5:15:13 PM Eastern Standard Time, tillicum@lineone.net writes:


in the 1st century
BC. If you're wondering where this is going, Stephen says


this might show my ignorance but, I've always had problems with this, what exactly are the years of the 1st century BC?

1st Century AD?
etc?

I'd rather just call a year a year rather than use a century term but if you or anyone else can explain this, I'd appreciate it. I also seem to realize that the numbers in BC go backwards up to year 1 AD. --part1_ae.308d01c3.2afdc5c6_boundary-- ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: Dark4eyes@aol.com Subject: Re: TPDIS: Idea: Nitpickers Guide to The Tomorrow People Date: 08 Nov 2002 21:17:09 -0500 in the 1st century BC. If you're wondering where this is going, Stephen says this might show my ignorance but, I've always had problems with this, what exactly are the years of the 1st century BC? 1st Century AD? etc? I'd rather just call a year a year rather than use a century term but if you or anyone else can explain this, I'd appreciate it. I also seem to realize that the numbers in BC go backwards up to year 1 AD. Blame the "religious" folks for that - BC is supposed to mean Before Christ and AD Anno Domini - aka Year of our Lord - now they say BCE - Before Common Era. Different countries use different calendars, but we're stuck with that numbering system now. Viv Check out new and used zines, memorabilia, comic books, and books at our "Internet Garage Sale" http://pages.prodigy.net/tia-pals/ ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: "John A. Merullo" Subject: Re: TPDIS: Limits to TP powers? Date: 08 Nov 2002 20:57:36 -0600 Doctor TOC wrote: >> That's possible. He may have also used telekinesis to diffuse the >> molecules of the (relatively small) objects. > > That's a possibility, though it would result in a small cloud of > particles that would be visible unless they were diffused over a very > wide area or were very small indeed; they'd be the proverbial "puff of > smoke". Or not if it were appearing in a television series with a very small special effects budget;-)! > Also, breaking the molecules apart would take a tremendous amount of > energy - not something you could do casually. There's also the fact > that if it were easy, the TPs would do it more often. It easy to > disarm an opponent if you can make there weapon simply vanish. > And there would go half the stories... > >> Okay, and on the subject of TK (or PK, depending on the script), in >> "Lost Gods", John comments that he can repair his glider with >> telekinesis, at which point Mike says "speaking of telekinesis" and >> changes clothes. At some point did the TP take up wearing AE suits >> full time, or did he somehow change his clothing with TK (and why >> didn't Elizabeth do that in "The Blue and the Green" instead of >> switching back and forth between the same two outfits ;-) ) > > > > I love this list! Don't you? I wish I'd discovered it long ago! > > Thanks for reminding me that molecular PK was always part of the > package (if something it took them a while to learn). I suppose it's > possible that Mike just rearranged the molecules of his clothes, but > it seems like a rather complex trick to do so casually. The apparent > effortlessness of such an ability also raises some other problems; if > they can do this sort of thing so easily, what's to stop them doing > neat trick like turning lead to gold, or converting all the air in a > room to nitrogen in order to render a target unconscious? It's a neat > power, but the plot problems it raises are too great. Maybe Mike *was* > wearing an AE suit (he was, after all, going up in a glider, and the > prospect might have made him nervous enough to want some "insurance"), > and used his PK to activate the suit's chameleon function? It would have made sense that the TP would wear the AE suits all the time. Elizabeth comments in "A Rift in Time" that it's the most comfortable thing one can wear. Of course, this would pretty much render "The Living Skins" pointless. > > On the subject of molecular PK, my personal feeling is that it's a bit > like welding; you can stick things together (like the crystal ball) or > break them apart, but going further requires a lot of concentration > and energy. > Sounds about right. It's a pity they never explored more of these issues in the series, but then I guess TPTB never thought we'd be talking about it thirty years later either! John ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: CMento6653@aol.com Subject: Re: TPDIS: Idea: Nitpickers Guide to The Tomorrow People Date: 08 Nov 2002 22:29:29 EST --part1_8a.20f45676.2afddb19_boundary Content-Type: text/plain; charset="US-ASCII" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit In a message dated 11/8/02 9:17:46 PM Eastern Standard Time, Dark4eyes@aol.com writes: > Blame the "religious" folks for that - BC is supposed to mean Before Christ > and AD Anno Domini - aka Year of our Lord - now they say BCE - Before > Common Era. > > Different countries use different calendars, but we're stuck with that > numbering system now. > > Well the BC thing I understand but I don't understand the Century thing and worse, the Century BC thing. --part1_8a.20f45676.2afddb19_boundary Content-Type: text/html; charset="US-ASCII" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit In a message dated 11/8/02 9:17:46 PM Eastern Standard Time, Dark4eyes@aol.com writes:


Blame the "religious" folks for that - BC is supposed to mean Before Christ and AD Anno Domini - aka Year of our Lord - now they say BCE - Before Common Era.  

Different countries use different calendars, but we're stuck with that numbering system now.



Well the BC thing I understand but I don't understand the Century thing and worse, the Century BC thing. --part1_8a.20f45676.2afddb19_boundary-- ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: Wendy Perkins Subject: Re: TPDIS: Idea: Nitpickers Guide to The Tomorrow People Date: 08 Nov 2002 23:12:35 -0600 > >Well the BC thing I understand but I don't understand the Century thing > and worse, the Century BC thing. The first century BC would have actually been the last century that we call BC. That is, the years 99-1 BC. Likewise, the first century AD is 1-99 or 1-100 depending on who you ask. ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: "Kristy Fahrenwald" Subject: TPDIS: YKYBWTMTPW... Date: 09 Nov 2002 17:37:23 -0600 You Know You've Been Watching Too Much Tomorrow People When... You have cleared a spot at work/school to use as a jaunting in/out spot... being sure to avoid all windows and security cameras... just in case you break out. BTW: I'm a high school teacher and we have a required reading time each day. Along with several other of my books, I've also stuck a couple of my duplicate TP books in my classroom for those who forget to bring their own. And I've got a bite! One of my students has been reading The Visitor... he'd be the one I'd pick as a TP fan... kind of the 'loner' like a lot of us seem to have been. Now... do I mention the show/list? Or leave it alone unless he asks? Got to recruit those fans. :) Kristy The Sap Friend _________________________________________________________________ Add photos to your e-mail with MSN 8. Get 2 months FREE*. http://join.msn.com/?page=features/featuredemail ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: Doctor TOC Subject: Re: TPDIS: Limits to TP powers? Date: 09 Nov 2002 20:53:46 -0500 Carol Bevis wrote: > I don't think NS uses hyperspace. I have a theory that they create temporary > mental wormholes to get themselves from one place to another, thereby > bypassing hyperspace completely. It fits with Megabyte's explanation to Ami > (on her first voluntary teleport) that she should "focus on where you are, > and where he (Adam) is until the two meet" and would also explain how they > manage to "pull each other through" (as I think of it) with no worry about > hyperspace and all the hazards that go with it. At least that's how any > stories I write will work. I might agree with you, if I felt it was likely that the two different groups of TP's would evolve different means of teleportation. As it is, I think it's over complicating things a little. Still, the mechanism you propose might well be possible, and still involve hyperspace. Wormholes have to pass through something, and many physicists and cosmologists think they effectively tunnel through a higher dimensional "superspace"; in a word, hyperspace. IMHO, hyperspace doesn't feature as a hazard of even a location for the NS TPs, because of the existence of the Ship's navigational beacon. When they first jaunt, the beacon pulls them to it, and them keeps them there until they can overcome its attraction. It effectively forces them to develop their jaunting "muscle". Once their faculty is sufficiently strong, they can overcome the attraction of the beacon and make their passage through hyperspace without ever having to pause and re-orient themselves, as the OS TPs had to do. Hence, their experience of it is so fleeting that it doesn't even register, and instead they visualize making the departure and arrival point meet (which they do, in hyperspace). While the NS TPs can create a sort of conduit through hyperspace, the OS TPs never had the advantage of the Ship's beacon to help them develop their jaunting ability. For them, the process is slower and far more dangerous. When they jaunt, they pause for a second in hyperspace before locking on to their arrival point and crossing over again. Think if it like crossing a chasm. The NS TPs are much stronger and jump straight over, so their experience of the chasm itself is incredibly brief. The OS TPs have to jump to a precarious pinnacle in the middle of the chasm, then jump to the other side. Both sides cross the chasm, but in different ways, so your theory and mine aren't mutually exclusive. Actually, I've been doing some thinking today, and I'm forming a theory that posits that hyperspace and its manipulation of it in relation to normal space as the fundamental mechanism behind *all* TP abilities. I'll start a separate thread on this when I've had some time to firm up the theory. Doctor TOC -- The Reverend Doctor "The Other Chris" Secret Elf, Jive Talkin' Choirboy, God of Cowboy Spurs ICQ # 4814586 Daleks! 3D - http://users.rcn.com/otherchris/ Time War RPG - http://jump.to/TimeWar alt.tv.sevendays FAQ - http://welcome.to/7-Days The TOC Files - http://members.fortunecity.com/toc ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: "Shaun Hately" Subject: TPDIS: Chat Date: 10 Nov 2002 12:53:12 +1100 I've noticed a few new names on the list so it might be worth mentioning there's (theoretically) a weekly Tomorrow People chat on IRC Dalnet Saturday evenings US time - attendance is sporadic - sometimes quite a few people, sometimes not. I'm there now - channel is #TomorrowPeople on Dalnet servers. Yours Without Wax, Dreadnought Shaun Hately |webpage: http://www.alphalink.com.au/~drednort/thelab.html (ISTJ) |email: drednort@alphalink.com.au | ICQ: 6898200 "You know the very powerful and the very stupid have one thing in common. They don't alter their views to fit the facts. They alter the facts to fit the views. Which can be uncomfortable if you happen to be one of the facts that need altering." The Doctor - Doctor Who: The Face of Evil | Where am I: Frankston, Victoria, Australia ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: "Martin Dunn" Subject: Re: TPDIS: Idea: Nitpickers Guide to The Tomorrow People Date: 09 Nov 2002 15:33:55 +1030 I take it that their depiction of Britain in 1 AD was merely affected for aesthetic reasons. I am yet to fully understand the significance of the statement, but quite enjoy it. Martin ----- Original Message ----- Sent: Saturday, November 09, 2002 8:26 AM > I've been watching the first 3 episodes of Rift in Time. They really do have > problems don't they? Their historical accuracy really leaves much to be > desired!! [snip] ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: Kathryn Andersen Subject: Re: TPDIS: DVD - A Rift In Time Date: 10 Nov 2002 19:32:37 +1100 On Tue, Oct 29, 2002 at 07:21:59AM +1100, Warren Hillsdon wrote: > According to Blackstar it looks like a A Rift in Time has been pushed > back a week for release to the 4th of Nov. I hope this isn't going to > turn into another B&G scenario. > > Hey Kathryn any sign of it in JB Hi-Fi? Not yet. -- _--_|\ | Kathryn Andersen / \ | \_.--.*/ | GenFicCrit mailing list v | ------------| Melbourne -> Victoria -> Australia -> Southern Hemisphere Maranatha! | -> Earth -> Sol -> Milky Way Galaxy -> Universe ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: "Jackie Clark" Subject: Re: TPDIS: Chat Date: 10 Nov 2002 08:51:58 -0000 I've noticed that Dalnet has had some major problems lately when whole areas of the world cannot log on. If I cannot get into Dalnet in another few weeks the TP chat channel will disappear as a registered channel. I've been considering moving the channel onto Undernet and wondered how people felt about this? The Undernet servers are seldom full and connection is much easier. - Jackie ----- Original Message ----- Sent: Sunday, November 10, 2002 1:53 AM > I've noticed a few new names on the list so it might be worth mentioning there's > (theoretically) a weekly Tomorrow People chat on IRC Dalnet Saturday evenings > US time - attendance is sporadic - sometimes quite a few people, sometimes not. > I'm there now - channel is #TomorrowPeople on Dalnet servers. > > Yours Without Wax, Dreadnought > Shaun Hately |webpage: http://www.alphalink.com.au/~drednort/thelab.html > (ISTJ) |email: drednort@alphalink.com.au | ICQ: 6898200 > "You know the very powerful and the very stupid have one thing in > common. They don't alter their views to fit the facts. They alter > the facts to fit the views. Which can be uncomfortable if you happen > to be one of the facts that need altering." The Doctor - Doctor Who: > The Face of Evil | Where am I: Frankston, Victoria, Australia > > > ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: "Jackie Clark" Subject: Re: TPDIS: YKYBWTMTPW... Date: 10 Nov 2002 08:56:55 -0000 Now... do I mention the show/list? Or leave it alone > unless he asks? Got to recruit those fans. :) > > Kristy > The Sap Friend Remember what happened when they contacted Liz too soon and pushed her along too fast.... On the other hand if he starts to paint strange alien landscapes I'd jump straight in! lol - Jackie ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: Kathryn Andersen Subject: Canon? (was Re: TPDIS: Limits to TP powers?) Date: 10 Nov 2002 21:59:48 +1100 On Wed, Nov 06, 2002 at 09:26:45PM -0000, Jackie Clark wrote: > One last point. Are we accepting BF audios as canon? I know that there are > some people on the list who treat it as an alternative universe. Absolutely not. Not canon, that is. I'm sorry, but as soon as they made TPs able to kill, the BF audios and I parted ways... that's not being true to the series, IMHO. Anyway, I consider the OS and the NS to be different universes. The BF audios I don't accept. The books I consider to be mere speculation, not canon. That is, if something is mentioned in one of the books that wasn't in the show, I take it to be an invention of the author, not something definitive. If the particular thing is plausible and a good idea, then I take it under advisement, but I would never consider it cannonical. So, for example, I wouldn't *assume* that the Lab is just around the corner from Shepards Bush, but if I had to pick a spot, and it made sense for it to be Shepards Bush, then that's as good a spot as any. Wasn't there a discussion a while back about the location of the lab? People were talking about which disused railway station it was likely to be... Kathryn Andersen -=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=- The next sentence is true. The previous sentence is false. -- _--_|\ | Kathryn Andersen / \ | \_.--.*/ | GenFicCrit mailing list v | ------------| Melbourne -> Victoria -> Australia -> Southern Hemisphere Maranatha! | -> Earth -> Sol -> Milky Way Galaxy -> Universe ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: "Shaun Hately" Subject: Re: Canon? (was Re: TPDIS: Limits to TP powers?) Date: 10 Nov 2002 22:03:42 +1100 On 10 Nov 2002 at 21:59, Kathryn Andersen wrote: > On Wed, Nov 06, 2002 at 09:26:45PM -0000, Jackie Clark wrote: > > One last point. Are we accepting BF audios as canon? I know that there are > > some people on the list who treat it as an alternative universe. > > Absolutely not. Not canon, that is. I'm sorry, but as soon as they > made TPs able to kill, the BF audios and I parted ways... that's not > being true to the series, IMHO. Yes, that was a huge variation IMHO, and not one that allows me to accept the CDs as canon - certainly not when it came so early. If the BF audios had built up their credibility over a substantial period of time by remaining true to basic principles, I *might* have been able to stomach a major change. > Anyway, I consider the OS and the NS to be different universes. > The BF audios I don't accept. The books I consider to be mere > speculation, not canon. That is, if something is mentioned in one of > the books that wasn't in the show, I take it to be an invention of the > author, not something definitive. If the particular thing is plausible > and a good idea, then I take it under advisement, but I would never > consider it cannonical. I don't consider the OS and NS to be the same universe in a canonical sense - but for fanfic purposes (and for fun!) I have often chosen to try and reconcile their inconsistencies for my own purposes. My attitude to the canonicity of the novels may be similar to yours - they're not canon, but I'm willing to use them as long as they fit my own ideas. > So, for example, I wouldn't *assume* that the Lab is just around the > corner from Shepards Bush, but if I had to pick a spot, and it made > sense for it to be Shepards Bush, then that's as good a spot as any. > > Wasn't there a discussion a while back about the location of the lab? > People were talking about which disused railway station it was likely to > be... I haven't succeeded in completing my entire planned website update this weekend, but the following page may be of interest - http://www.alphalink.com.au/~drednort/woodlane.html It compares photos taken of the Wood Lane Underground Station with scenes from Slaves of Jedikiah. This was the station used for the filming on those scenes. http://www.alphalink.com.au/~drednort/lablocus.html discusess the location of the original lab, using information from the series and the novels - Wood Lane station, BTW, is close to Shepherd's Bush. I think it's a very reasonable location for the lab, and I've outline why - but it's not set in stone. > Kathryn Andersen > -=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=- > The next sentence is true. The previous sentence is false. > -- > _--_|\ | Kathryn Andersen > / \ | > \_.--.*/ | GenFicCrit mailing list > v | > ------------| Melbourne -> Victoria -> Australia -> Southern Hemisphere > Maranatha! | -> Earth -> Sol -> Milky Way Galaxy -> Universe > Yours Without Wax, Dreadnought Shaun Hately |webpage: http://www.alphalink.com.au/~drednort/thelab.html (ISTJ) |email: drednort@alphalink.com.au | ICQ: 6898200 "You know the very powerful and the very stupid have one thing in common. They don't alter their views to fit the facts. They alter the facts to fit the views. Which can be uncomfortable if you happen to be one of the facts that need altering." The Doctor - Doctor Who: The Face of Evil | Where am I: Frankston, Victoria, Australia ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: "Kristy Fahrenwald" Subject: Re: Canon? (was Re: TPDIS: Limits to TP powers?) Date: 10 Nov 2002 08:09:34 -0600 >http://www.alphalink.com.au/~drednort/lablocus.html discusess the location >of the >original lab, using information from the series and the novels - Wood Lane >station, >BTW, is close to Shepherd's Bush. > >I think it's a very reasonable location for the lab, and I've outline why - >but it's not >set in stone. >Yours Without Wax, Dreadnought >Shaun Hately |webpage: http://www.alphalink.com.au/~drednort/thelab.html Of course, Nick Young said it was there in his chat. :) I have no idea how you missed mentioning that... cannon or not, it was very, very cool! Kristy _________________________________________________________________ Protect your PC - get McAfee.com VirusScan Online http://clinic.mcafee.com/clinic/ibuy/campaign.asp?cid=3963 ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: Beth E. Subject: Re: TPDIS: Chat Date: 10 Nov 2002 09:03:50 -0600 On Sunday, November 10, 2002, at 02:51 AM, Jackie Clark wrote: > I've noticed that Dalnet has had some major problems lately when whole > areas > of the world cannot log on. If I cannot get into Dalnet in another few > weeks > the TP chat channel will disappear as a registered channel. That's why I've been having so much trouble? I was begining to wonder if my ISP had been blocked or something. > > I've been considering moving the channel onto Undernet and wondered how > people felt about this? The Undernet servers are seldom full and > connection > is much easier. > I know very little about IRC (I go to our chats and that's about it). Presuming that you can get to Undernet with the same kinds of clients as dalnet (and therefore not have to pay for all new software) it seems like a good idea to me. What's the point of having Chat if no one can get there to talk? Tigger ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: "Jackie Clark" Subject: Re: TPDIS: Chat Date: 10 Nov 2002 17:28:54 -0000 Hello All Tigger wrote: I know very little about IRC (I go to our chats and that's about it). > Presuming that you can get to Undernet with the same kinds of clients as > dalnet (and therefore not have to pay for all new software) it seems > like a good idea to me. I've made some investigations regarding re-registering our chat channel on Undernet. You can get to it simply by choosing any Undernet server. Many come pre-loaded into your irc program so there is no need for new software etc. I like to use the London server which seems to give uk users a very quick response time... The problem with Undernet is that they do not allow channels to register just like that! They need at least ten people who agree to be regular ops. These people have to register, on a particular web site, their interest in supporting the channel. They also like a channel to be up and running for some time (about two weeks minimum) with regular visitors, for them to consider it worth registering. What I need are ten volunteers who can guarantee to support the channel, these people would need to visit the channel over a few designated weeks (we can arrange this later) at a specific time, so that we build up enough activity within the channel to make it viable. At the moment anyone can go onto irc Undernet and type /join #TomorrowPeople I'd appreciate it if a number of people from the list could do this. You will not find a regular welcome message and may find the channel empty. What you are doing is recreating a new channel under that name each time, and Undernet will probably give you ops status for the time that you are in the channel. When you leave the channel will disappear, until someone else comes along... if we can all do this then we'll be able to establish a place for us to meet and talk in real time. I am grateful to the various people who have founded and maintained TP chat over the years. I believe that it is a useful additional facility to all list members and there fore worth continuing. It's been a while since I organised a live chat with a cast member... would anyone be interested in James/Daniel Wilson coming to talk about the new CD's and the direction he feels they are going in? Thanks for the support Jackie ----- Original Message ----- Sent: Sunday, November 10, 2002 3:03 PM > > On Sunday, November 10, 2002, at 02:51 AM, Jackie Clark wrote: > > > I've noticed that Dalnet has had some major problems lately when whole > > areas > > of the world cannot log on. If I cannot get into Dalnet in another few > > weeks > > the TP chat channel will disappear as a registered channel. > > That's why I've been having so much trouble? I was begining to wonder > if my ISP had been blocked or something. > > > > > I've been considering moving the channel onto Undernet and wondered how > > people felt about this? The Undernet servers are seldom full and > > connection > > is much easier. > > > > > What's the point of having Chat if no one can get there to talk? > Tigger > > ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: CMento6653@aol.com Subject: Re: Canon? (was Re: TPDIS: Limits to TP powers?) Date: 10 Nov 2002 12:36:30 EST --part1_f3.23ccd165.2afff31e_boundary Content-Type: text/plain; charset="US-ASCII" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Maybe there are many universes of TPs and some of the same stories (maybe all?) happen but happen in different ways. --part1_f3.23ccd165.2afff31e_boundary Content-Type: text/html; charset="US-ASCII" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Maybe there are many universes of TPs and some of the same stories (maybe all?) happen but happen in different ways. --part1_f3.23ccd165.2afff31e_boundary-- ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: ade Subject: Re: TPDIS: Chat Date: 10 Nov 2002 12:38:04 -0500 Jackie, I'll volunteer to play OP for a while. I had nothing but trouble getting onto DAL last night, and it kept kicking me off. I think this is the time to move it. I just added a bogus site to the web ring which leads back to the chat information page. This way (hopefully) more people that are "just passing by" will know about the chat. Jackie Clark wrote: > > Hello All > Tigger wrote: > I know very little about IRC (I go to our chats and that's about it). > > Presuming that you can get to Undernet with the same kinds of clients as > > dalnet (and therefore not have to pay for all new software) it seems > > like a good idea to me. > > I've made some investigations regarding re-registering our chat channel on > Undernet. You can get to it simply by choosing any Undernet server. Many > come pre-loaded into your irc program so there is no need for new software > etc. I like to use the London server which seems to give uk users a very > quick response time... > > The problem with Undernet is that they do not allow channels to register > just like that! They need at least ten people who agree to be regular ops. > These people have to register, on a particular web site, their interest in > supporting the channel. > > They also like a channel to be up and running for some time (about two weeks > minimum) with regular visitors, for them to consider it worth registering. > > What I need are ten volunteers who can guarantee to support the channel, > these people would need to visit the channel over a few designated weeks (we > can arrange this later) at a specific time, so that we build up enough > activity within the channel to make it viable. > > At the moment anyone can go onto irc Undernet and type /join #TomorrowPeople > > I'd appreciate it if a number of people from the list could do this. You > will not find a regular welcome message and may find the channel empty. What > you are doing is recreating a new channel under that name each time, and > Undernet will probably give you ops status for the time that you are in the > channel. When you leave the channel will disappear, until someone else comes > along... if we can all do this then we'll be able to establish a place for > us to meet and talk in real time. > > I am grateful to the various people who have founded and maintained TP chat > over the years. I believe that it is a useful additional facility to all > list members and there fore worth continuing. > > It's been a while since I organised a live chat with a cast member... would > anyone be interested in James/Daniel Wilson coming to talk about the new > CD's and the direction he feels they are going in? > > Thanks for the support > > Jackie > > ----- Original Message ----- > From: Beth E. > To: > Sent: Sunday, November 10, 2002 3:03 PM > Subject: Re: TPDIS: Chat > > > > > On Sunday, November 10, 2002, at 02:51 AM, Jackie Clark wrote: > > > > > I've noticed that Dalnet has had some major problems lately when whole > > > areas > > > of the world cannot log on. If I cannot get into Dalnet in another few > > > weeks > > > the TP chat channel will disappear as a registered channel. > > > > That's why I've been having so much trouble? I was begining to wonder > > if my ISP had been blocked or something. > > > > > > > > I've been considering moving the channel onto Undernet and wondered how > > > people felt about this? The Undernet servers are seldom full and > > > connection > > > is much easier. > > > > > > > > What's the point of having Chat if no one can get there to talk? > > Tigger > > > > ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: "Jackie Clark" Subject: Re: TPDIS: Chat Date: 10 Nov 2002 17:45:33 -0000 I'm in the channel now ( sunday 5.45 pm GMT) and someone came in for a few minutes while I looked away... if it was someone form the list please come back... Jackie ----- Original Message ----- Sent: Sunday, November 10, 2002 5:38 PM > Jackie, > > I'll volunteer to play OP for a while. I had nothing but trouble getting > onto DAL last night, and it kept kicking me off. I think this is the > time to move it. I just added a bogus site to the web ring which leads > back to the chat information page. This way (hopefully) more people that > are "just passing by" will know about the chat. > > > > > Jackie Clark wrote: > > > > Hello All > > Tigger wrote: > > I know very little about IRC (I go to our chats and that's about it). > > > Presuming that you can get to Undernet with the same kinds of clients as > > > dalnet (and therefore not have to pay for all new software) it seems > > > like a good idea to me. > > > > I've made some investigations regarding re-registering our chat channel on > > Undernet. You can get to it simply by choosing any Undernet server. Many > > come pre-loaded into your irc program so there is no need for new software > > etc. I like to use the London server which seems to give uk users a very > > quick response time... > > > > The problem with Undernet is that they do not allow channels to register > > just like that! They need at least ten people who agree to be regular ops. > > These people have to register, on a particular web site, their interest in > > supporting the channel. > > > > They also like a channel to be up and running for some time (about two weeks > > minimum) with regular visitors, for them to consider it worth registering. > > > > What I need are ten volunteers who can guarantee to support the channel, > > these people would need to visit the channel over a few designated weeks (we > > can arrange this later) at a specific time, so that we build up enough > > activity within the channel to make it viable. > > > > At the moment anyone can go onto irc Undernet and type /join #TomorrowPeople > > > > I'd appreciate it if a number of people from the list could do this. You > > will not find a regular welcome message and may find the channel empty. What > > you are doing is recreating a new channel under that name each time, and > > Undernet will probably give you ops status for the time that you are in the > > channel. When you leave the channel will disappear, until someone else comes > > along... if we can all do this then we'll be able to establish a place for > > us to meet and talk in real time. > > > > I am grateful to the various people who have founded and maintained TP chat > > over the years. I believe that it is a useful additional facility to all > > list members and there fore worth continuing. > > > > It's been a while since I organised a live chat with a cast member... would > > anyone be interested in James/Daniel Wilson coming to talk about the new > > CD's and the direction he feels they are going in? > > > > Thanks for the support > > > > Jackie > > > > ----- Original Message ----- > > From: Beth E. > > To: > > Sent: Sunday, November 10, 2002 3:03 PM > > Subject: Re: TPDIS: Chat > > > > > > > > On Sunday, November 10, 2002, at 02:51 AM, Jackie Clark wrote: > > > > > > > I've noticed that Dalnet has had some major problems lately when whole > > > > areas > > > > of the world cannot log on. If I cannot get into Dalnet in another few > > > > weeks > > > > the TP chat channel will disappear as a registered channel. > > > > > > That's why I've been having so much trouble? I was begining to wonder > > > if my ISP had been blocked or something. > > > > > > > > > > > I've been considering moving the channel onto Undernet and wondered how > > > > people felt about this? The Undernet servers are seldom full and > > > > connection > > > > is much easier. > > > > > > > > > > > What's the point of having Chat if no one can get there to talk? > > > Tigger > > > > > > > ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: "Simon Fraser" Subject: Re: TPDIS: Chat Date: 10 Nov 2002 18:10:33 -0000 Okay :) Seeing as this is an issue very close to my own heart, I'm going to put my tuppence worth in :) First of all, Jackie is doing a fantastic job of running the IRC channel, and all the people who come in a chat really enjoy their stay. (I know I certainly do) However, I honestly think Undernet is not a particularly ideal choice for a new channel, and I think other, smaller servers are probably better suited to the needs of the TP community ;) (Wow, lotsa big words..) Does anybody else agree with this, becuase If I'm speaking out of line, just tell me to sit down in a corner and be quiet ;) Take care ppls TinyTim / Simon Fraser ----- Original Message ----- Sent: Sunday, November 10, 2002 5:28 PM Hello All Tigger wrote: I know very little about IRC (I go to our chats and that's about it). > Presuming that you can get to Undernet with the same kinds of clients as > dalnet (and therefore not have to pay for all new software) it seems > like a good idea to me. I've made some investigations regarding re-registering our chat channel on Undernet. You can get to it simply by choosing any Undernet server. Many come pre-loaded into your irc program so there is no need for new software etc. I like to use the London server which seems to give uk users a very quick response time... The problem with Undernet is that they do not allow channels to register just like that! They need at least ten people who agree to be regular ops. These people have to register, on a particular web site, their interest in supporting the channel. They also like a channel to be up and running for some time (about two weeks minimum) with regular visitors, for them to consider it worth registering. What I need are ten volunteers who can guarantee to support the channel, these people would need to visit the channel over a few designated weeks (we can arrange this later) at a specific time, so that we build up enough activity within the channel to make it viable. At the moment anyone can go onto irc Undernet and type /join #TomorrowPeople I'd appreciate it if a number of people from the list could do this. You will not find a regular welcome message and may find the channel empty. What you are doing is recreating a new channel under that name each time, and Undernet will probably give you ops status for the time that you are in the channel. When you leave the channel will disappear, until someone else comes along... if we can all do this then we'll be able to establish a place for us to meet and talk in real time. I am grateful to the various people who have founded and maintained TP chat over the years. I believe that it is a useful additional facility to all list members and there fore worth continuing. It's been a while since I organised a live chat with a cast member... would anyone be interested in James/Daniel Wilson coming to talk about the new CD's and the direction he feels they are going in? Thanks for the support Jackie ----- Original Message ----- Sent: Sunday, November 10, 2002 3:03 PM > > On Sunday, November 10, 2002, at 02:51 AM, Jackie Clark wrote: > > > I've noticed that Dalnet has had some major problems lately when whole > > areas > > of the world cannot log on. If I cannot get into Dalnet in another few > > weeks > > the TP chat channel will disappear as a registered channel. > > That's why I've been having so much trouble? I was begining to wonder > if my ISP had been blocked or something. > > > > > I've been considering moving the channel onto Undernet and wondered how > > people felt about this? The Undernet servers are seldom full and > > connection > > is much easier. > > > > > What's the point of having Chat if no one can get there to talk? > Tigger > > ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: ade Subject: Re: TPDIS: Chat Date: 10 Nov 2002 13:35:29 -0500 There's Dalnet, Efnet, Undernet...there's java chat applets that would allow the chat to take place via a web site. There are plenty of alternatives if the DAL has taken a virtual dump, and from what I've seen it has. Simon Fraser wrote: > > Okay :) > > Seeing as this is an issue very close to my own heart, I'm going to put my > tuppence worth in :) > > First of all, Jackie is doing a fantastic job of running the IRC channel, > and all the people who come in a chat really enjoy their stay. (I know I > certainly do) > However, I honestly think Undernet is not a particularly ideal choice for a > new channel, and I think other, smaller servers are probably better suited > to the needs of the TP community ;) (Wow, lotsa big words..) > > Does anybody else agree with this, becuase If I'm speaking out of line, just > tell me to sit down in a corner and be quiet ;) > > Take care ppls > > TinyTim / Simon Fraser > > ----- Original Message ----- > From: Jackie Clark > To: > Sent: Sunday, November 10, 2002 5:28 PM > Subject: Re: TPDIS: Chat > > Hello All > Tigger wrote: > I know very little about IRC (I go to our chats and that's about it). > > Presuming that you can get to Undernet with the same kinds of clients as > > dalnet (and therefore not have to pay for all new software) it seems > > like a good idea to me. > > I've made some investigations regarding re-registering our chat channel on > Undernet. You can get to it simply by choosing any Undernet server. Many > come pre-loaded into your irc program so there is no need for new software > etc. I like to use the London server which seems to give uk users a very > quick response time... > > The problem with Undernet is that they do not allow channels to register > just like that! They need at least ten people who agree to be regular ops. > These people have to register, on a particular web site, their interest in > supporting the channel. > > They also like a channel to be up and running for some time (about two weeks > minimum) with regular visitors, for them to consider it worth registering. > > What I need are ten volunteers who can guarantee to support the channel, > these people would need to visit the channel over a few designated weeks (we > can arrange this later) at a specific time, so that we build up enough > activity within the channel to make it viable. > > At the moment anyone can go onto irc Undernet and type /join #TomorrowPeople > > I'd appreciate it if a number of people from the list could do this. You > will not find a regular welcome message and may find the channel empty. What > you are doing is recreating a new channel under that name each time, and > Undernet will probably give you ops status for the time that you are in the > channel. When you leave the channel will disappear, until someone else comes > along... if we can all do this then we'll be able to establish a place for > us to meet and talk in real time. > > I am grateful to the various people who have founded and maintained TP chat > over the years. I believe that it is a useful additional facility to all > list members and there fore worth continuing. > > It's been a while since I organised a live chat with a cast member... would > anyone be interested in James/Daniel Wilson coming to talk about the new > CD's and the direction he feels they are going in? > > Thanks for the support > > Jackie > > ----- Original Message ----- > From: Beth E. > To: > Sent: Sunday, November 10, 2002 3:03 PM > Subject: Re: TPDIS: Chat > > > > > On Sunday, November 10, 2002, at 02:51 AM, Jackie Clark wrote: > > > > > I've noticed that Dalnet has had some major problems lately when whole > > > areas > > > of the world cannot log on. If I cannot get into Dalnet in another few > > > weeks > > > the TP chat channel will disappear as a registered channel. > > > > That's why I've been having so much trouble? I was begining to wonder > > if my ISP had been blocked or something. > > > > > > > > I've been considering moving the channel onto Undernet and wondered how > > > people felt about this? The Undernet servers are seldom full and > > > connection > > > is much easier. > > > > > > > > What's the point of having Chat if no one can get there to talk? > > Tigger > > > > ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: "Kristy Fahrenwald" Subject: Re: TPDIS: YKYBWTMTPW/Liz question Date: 10 Nov 2002 20:49:15 -0600 >Remember what happened when they contacted Liz too soon and pushed her >along >too fast.... On the other hand if he starts to paint strange alien >landscapes I'd jump straight in! lol > >- Jackie Ah, yes... very true. I think I'll at *least* wait and see if he jumps to pick up Four in Three when he finishes this one. :) We don't really have the art supplies in my room for the painting. Which makes me wonder... was Liz just practice teaching in an Art class because that was where they needed her? Or was her training in Art? Is this a whole side of Liz we have neglected. We never see her working on any art outside of TB&TG do we? Could be another US/UK difference, but for the most part teachers do their practice training in the older grades in the same field they plan to teach. Kristy _________________________________________________________________ MSN 8 helps eliminate e-mail viruses. Get 2 months FREE*. http://join.msn.com/?page=features/virus ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: alpropes Subject: TPDIS: Missing emails? Date: 11 Nov 2002 09:27:58 -0600 (CST) Anyone else seeming to have missing list emails? It seems like I'm missing huge segments of ongoing threads (I'm only catching them from what's been quoted on the emails I do get). Or is this just a way from me from argueing that Stephen killing wasn't an impossible thing again? ;) Aaron --- Aaron Lee Propes Tomorrow People Audio Reviews - http://www2.bitstream.net/~alpropes/tp ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: Doctor TOC Subject: TPDIS: TPs and the Ability to Kill Date: 11 Nov 2002 11:24:30 -0500 Warning. Spoilers for "The Deadliest Species" below... Kathryn Andersen wrote: > > Absolutely not. Not canon, that is. I'm sorry, but as soon as they > made TPs able to kill, the BF audios and I parted ways... that's not > being true to the series, IMHO. Really? That's quite interesting. I assume this has been gone over ad nauseum before, but I wasn't around to see it, so I'm interested to hear people's thoughts on this. If this topic has been ruled out of bounds, please let me know - don't want to ruffle any feathers. Death has, by and large, been a part of the OS for its entire run, though the TPs themselves were always above it. We understood that they simply couldn't kill. But that statment was later proved (in canon) to be incorrect. Saying a TP can't kill is wrong, because they obviously can, just (for the most part) not deliberately. A TP is perfectly capable of accidentally running someone over or poisoning someone through neglect. It's not physically impossible for them to kill, so the mechanism that prevents them doing so must be psychological. In canon, we know that Tyso was perfectly capable of trapping and killing rabbits and other small game, and could fish with the best of them. All of a sudden "can't kill" becomes "won't kill". In the NS, the TP's are quite capable of knocking off Culex's mosquitoes, so "won't kill" is even more flexible. If the compulsion not to kill is a mental one, an instinct against violence, then it can be overcome, though with great difficulty. Tyso was raised killing animals and saw nothing wrong with it. In "The Deadliest Species", we were told that poor old Stephen had been brainwashed into being able to kill, overcoming his instinct for non-violence in the same way that instinctual fears can be overcome through therapy. The TPs tenet of non-violence was actually upheld in the story by the fact that, even though he'd been subject to alien mind-control techniques for months, Stephen was still fighting it on some level (obviously, otherwise John would never have been able to reach him). Being programmed to kill was destroying him at a fundamental level. Though he could kill, it was at the cost of his soul, and there's no doubt in my mind that the character will be spending many years under Federation psychiatric care before he's well again. Having a built in desire not to kill is all very well, but how well can it stand up against technology that can rewire your brain? The above shouldn't be read to say that I think it was a good story (it wasn't), but I don't think it was untrue to the series. The fact that it was pointed out what a monstrous thing it was for a TP to kill, and what a terrible thing had been done to Stephen kept it quite firmly in the realm of the possible for the OS, which was pretty damn scary and had a few deaths in its time. I'd agree with you that it was untrue if Stephen had been happily popping off people left and right and there'd been no mention of the horrible consequences, but that's not how it was. I do agree with Shaun's comment that "The Deadliest Species" might have been easier to accept had it come later in the series, but I also think that the frankly terrible voice acting from PVC had a lot to do with how odd the story felt. Had he been able to put more depth and emotion into his voice, letting us know something of the torment that was going on inside the character, I think it would have fit far better. As it was I think it was a serious mis-step, but not one that should cause the audios to be disregarded - they're too much fun for that. Still, different strokes for different folks. I won't try and stuff my views down anyone's neck, and I hope no-one thinks that's what I'm trying to do. If we all thought the same, we wouldn't need discussion groups :-) Doctor TOC -- The Reverend Doctor "The Other Chris" Secret Elf, Jive Talkin' Choirboy, God of Cowboy Spurs ICQ # 4814586 Daleks! 3D - http://users.rcn.com/otherchris/ Time War RPG - http://jump.to/TimeWar alt.tv.sevendays FAQ - http://welcome.to/7-Days The TOC Files - http://members.fortunecity.com/toc ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: Doctor TOC Subject: Re: TPDIS: TPs and the Ability to Kill Date: 11 Nov 2002 11:44:55 -0500 Doctor TOC wrote: > Warning. Spoilers for "The Deadliest Species" below... Apologies if this came through to the list twice. I only sent it once, but my machine is behaving very strangely. Doctor TOC -- The Reverend Doctor "The Other Chris" Secret Elf, Jive Talkin' Choirboy, God of Cowboy Spurs ICQ # 4814586 Daleks! 3D - http://users.rcn.com/otherchris/ Time War RPG - http://jump.to/TimeWar alt.tv.sevendays FAQ - http://welcome.to/7-Days The TOC Files - http://members.fortunecity.com/toc ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: CMento6653@aol.com Subject: Re: TPDIS: TPs and the Ability to Kill Date: 11 Nov 2002 12:56:11 EST --part1_1a2.ba168d7.2b01493b_boundary Content-Type: text/plain; charset="US-ASCII" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit In a message dated 11/11/02 11:20:11 AM Eastern Standard Time, otherchris@erols.com writes: > > Death has, by and large, been a part of the OS for its entire run, > though the TPs themselves were always above it. We understood that they > simply couldn't kill. But that statment was later proved (in canon) to > be incorrect. > > Well I was ready to diagree with your statement but your statement reminded me of something: Pavla killed herself, even though it could be argued that she really wasn't a TP. --part1_1a2.ba168d7.2b01493b_boundary Content-Type: text/html; charset="US-ASCII" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit In a message dated 11/11/02 11:20:11 AM Eastern Standard Time, otherchris@erols.com writes:



Death has, by and large, been a part of the OS for its entire run,
though the TPs themselves were always above it. We understood that they
simply couldn't kill. But that statment was later proved (in canon) to
be incorrect.



Well I was ready to diagree with your statement but your statement reminded me of something: Pavla killed herself, even though it could be argued that she really wasn't a TP. --part1_1a2.ba168d7.2b01493b_boundary-- ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: ade Subject: Re: TPDIS: TPs and the Ability to Kill Date: 11 Nov 2002 12:57:23 -0500 If Patricia particpated in actions that lead to deaths, would that be the same thing? We only knew her before she officially broke out but she was still a telepath in every sense of the word. ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: "John A. Merullo" Subject: Re: TPDIS: TPs and the Ability to Kill Date: 11 Nov 2002 12:32:15 -0600 Doctor TOC wrote: > Warning. Spoilers for "The Deadliest Species" below... > > Kathryn Andersen wrote: > > > > Absolutely not. Not canon, that is. I'm sorry, but as soon as they > > made TPs able to kill, the BF audios and I parted ways... that's not > > being true to the series, IMHO. > > Really? That's quite interesting. I assume this has been gone over ad > nauseum before, but I wasn't around to see it, so I'm interested to hear > people's thoughts on this. If this topic has been ruled out of bounds, > please let me know - don't want to ruffle any feathers. Neither was I, so I'm glad to join the fray. > > > Death has, by and large, been a part of the OS for its entire run, > though the TPs themselves were always above it. We understood that they > simply couldn't kill. But that statment was later proved (in canon) to > be incorrect. > Saying a TP can't kill is wrong, because they obviously can, just (for > the most part) not deliberately. A TP is perfectly capable of > accidentally running someone over or poisoning someone through neglect. As I recall, the very first mention of what later came to be known as the "Prime Barrier" was in "The Slaves of Jedekiah", when Carol as at Stephen's bedside explaining who the TP are. She says "we can't kill. Well, not deliberately, anyway." From the very beginning, it was set up that a TP *could* cause a death, at least accidentally. One of the common criticism of "The Blue and the Green" is that they may have inadvertently cause many deaths by putting the whole world to sleep. > > It's not physically impossible for them to kill, so the mechanism that > prevents them doing so must be psychological. In canon, we know that > Tyso was perfectly capable of trapping and killing rabbits and other > small game, and could fish with the best of them. All of a sudden > "can't kill" becomes "won't kill". In the NS, the TP's are quite > capable of knocking off Culex's mosquitoes, so "won't kill" is even > more flexible. > If the compulsion not to kill is a mental one, an instinct > against violence, then it can be overcome, though with great > difficulty. Tyso was raised killing animals and saw nothing wrong with it It always seemed to me one of the inconsistencies of the series was that there was no barrier against killing non-sentient beings (i.e., animals). You can rationalise that the TP are not vegetarians because TIM can replicate organic matter and when they eat meat, no animal was harmed, but then there was Tyso. One would imagine that Hsui Tai was a vegetarian because she was probably raised as one, growing up in an Eastern monastery, but that is purely speculation. I only know what I've read on the fan sites about the NS, but wasn't there an episode when Adam had an issue with killing a shark? > In "The Deadliest Species", we were told that poor old Stephen had > been brainwashed into being able to kill, overcoming his instinct for > non-violence in the same way that instinctual fears can be overcome > through therapy. The TPs tenet of non-violence was actually upheld in > the story by the fact that, even though he'd been subject to alien > mind-control techniques for months, Stephen was still fighting it on > some level (obviously, otherwise John would never have been able to > reach him). Being programmed to kill was destroying him at a > fundamental level. Though he could kill, it was at the cost of his > soul, and there's no doubt in my mind that the character will be > spending many years under Federation psychiatric care before he's well > again. Having a built in desire not to kill is all very well, but how > well can it stand up against technology that can rewire your brain? I don't recall the exact brainwashing technique that the Sorsons used was mentioned. I guess some sort of technology (possibly stolen from another race, perhaps a telepathic one) may have been used, since the Sorsons seemed too stupid to come up with such a thing on their own. > > The above shouldn't be read to say that I think it was a good story > (it wasn't), but I don't think it was untrue to the series. The fact > that it was pointed out what a monstrous thing it was for a TP to > kill, and what a terrible thing had been done to Stephen kept it quite > firmly in the realm of the possible for the OS, which was pretty damn > scary and had a few deaths in its time. I'd agree with you that it was > untrue if Stephen had been happily popping off people left and right > and there'd been no mention of the horrible consequences, but that's > not how it was. > > I do agree with Shaun's comment that "The Deadliest Species" might > have been easier to accept had it come later in the series, but I also > think that the frankly terrible voice acting from PVC had a lot to do > with how odd the story felt. Had he been able to put more depth and > emotion into his voice, letting us know something of the torment that > was going on inside the character, I think it would have fit far > better. As it was I think it was a serious mis-step, but not one that > should cause the audios to be disregarded - they're too much fun for > that. Agreed. I enjoyed "DS", but it had some major flaws. PVC was never, by his own admission, a great actor. Of course, this never stopped me from regarding Stephen as one of my favourite characters. I didn't like the fact that two TPs were killed in this story, especially Hsui Tai, whom I've always liked quite a bit and whose death is almost glossed over ("Oh my God! They killed Kenny! Oh, yeah and Hsui Tai too. ;-) ) It seems also that if anyone, Stephen would have tried to kill Mike. He seemed jealous of Mike's relationship with John (I'll let the obvious pass by for now) and his killing Hsui Tai (had they ever even met?) seemed odd. Perhaps she discovered Stephen's intent to kill Mike and he killed her instead. ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: Doctor TOC Subject: Re: TPDIS: TPs and the Ability to Kill Date: 11 Nov 2002 13:47:34 -0500 CMento6653@aol.com wrote: > >> Death has, by and large, been a part of the OS for its entire run, >> though the TPs themselves were always above it. We understood that they >> simply couldn't kill. But that statment was later proved (in canon) to >> be incorrect. Clarification: in that Tyso could happily kill animals with no qualms. > Well I was ready to diagree with your statement but your statement > reminded me of something: Pavla killed herself, even though it could be > argued that she really wasn't a TP. Hmmm. I'd like to agree with you here, as it sort of supports what I was saying, but I'm not sure it hangs together. She didn't so much kill herself as remove herself from the vicinity of others who would be hurt when her implant was detonated. It's not quite the same thing, as she didn't choose to die. Doctor TOC -- The Reverend Doctor "The Other Chris" Secret Elf, Jive Talkin' Choirboy, God of Cowboy Spurs ICQ # 4814586 Daleks! 3D - http://users.rcn.com/otherchris/ Time War RPG - http://jump.to/TimeWar alt.tv.sevendays FAQ - http://welcome.to/7-Days The TOC Files - http://members.fortunecity.com/toc ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: Doctor TOC Subject: Re: TPDIS: TPs and the Ability to Kill Date: 11 Nov 2002 14:22:20 -0500 ade wrote: > If Patricia particpated in actions that lead to deaths, would that be > the same thing? We only knew her before she officially broke out but she > was still a telepath in every sense of the word. I think we need to be careful with definitions here. Being a teleptah and having telepathic powers are not the same thing as being a TP. Telepathy is a very clearly defined parapsychological term, and only deals with mind to mind communication, not PK, teleportation, or any of the other TP powers. Both the OS series and books stated that some saps had telepathic abilities, so it's possible to be a telepath yet not a TP. Maybe telepaths are all potential TPs, maybe only a few have the potential to break out. Regardless, I think only full TPs have the "no-killing" instinct. I've been thinking about the basis for this instinct for non-violence, and the concept of the TPs as the next stage of human evolution. A few fans have pointed out in various articles and fan fics that being unable to use lethal force to defend yourself is counter evolutionary; if you believe in evolution (I know some don't, and I can respect that), it bestows advantages on members of a species that allow them to survive and propagate. Organisms with counter evolutionary adaptations quickly die out. I think that the TP's are more than just a stage of genetic evolution, but a stage of *societal* evolution as well. Look at their group dynamic. They're individuals, and they have differing opinions, but they nearly always pull together. And yet when they're beyond a certain range from each other (like being at the Trig), they pretty much forget about each other. My theory is that operating on the same telepathic frequency creates a sense of unity amongst them, an evolutionary adaptation that naturally makes them form a support group that counteracts their inability to use violence, quite literally forming strength in numbers, but that this effect has a relatively limited range, and that once beyond it the TPs natural individuality re-emerges. With greater numbers, this effect would create a sort of sense of brotherhood, but also creating a natural divide between homo superior and homo sapiens, guaranteeing that the genetic purity of homo superior would remain intact and increasing the speed at which they would supplant the saps. I think that their telepathic awareness of living minds is the basis for the TPs inability to use violence. All life generates an electro-magnetic field, so it's not too much of a stretch to suggest that anything with a brain generates a similar telepathic field. This telepathic background noise is a continual reminder on a fundamental level that all living things are connected. For most TPs, this awareness is an integral part of them, allowing them to empathise with any living creature, no matter what it is or what it's about to do, resulting in a sort of paralysing horror at the thought of doing anything any harm. Tyso, on the other hand, grew up knowing that everything is connected, but also being aware that death is a part of life, so the empathy caused by his telepathic powers doesn't slow him down at all. Stephen's brainwashing raises some interesting questions. Normally, hypnosis and other simple mind control techniques can't make someone do something that they wouldn't choose to do. However, CIA techniques developed during the MK-ULTRA program *can*, by working intensively to re-write the way the subject views the world. For example, a subject might have a highly developed moral sense that prevents them from killing humans, but he can be convinced that a target isn't a human being and therefore must be killed. Many serial killers function by not considering the people they kill as "real", so it's a possibility that that's the route the Sorsons took with Stephen, forcing him to view reality through a filter that reduced the people he killed to the status of target dummies. Doctor TOC -- The Reverend Doctor "The Other Chris" Secret Elf, Jive Talkin' Choirboy, God of Cowboy Spurs ICQ # 4814586 Daleks! 3D - http://users.rcn.com/otherchris/ Time War RPG - http://jump.to/TimeWar alt.tv.sevendays FAQ - http://welcome.to/7-Days The TOC Files - http://members.fortunecity.com/toc ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: ade Subject: Re: TPDIS: TPs and the Ability to Kill Date: 11 Nov 2002 14:19:02 -0500 BUT....in the same way that on Highlander, immortals can tell other possible immortals, the TP can tell possible TPs. We know this from "Slaves". That is how they found Stephen in the first place. So if you are born to be a TP then the inate "non-kill" instinct should be there. Doctor TOC wrote: > > ade wrote: > > If Patricia particpated in actions that lead to deaths, would that be > > the same thing? We only knew her before she officially broke out but she > > was still a telepath in every sense of the word. > > I think we need to be careful with definitions here. Being a teleptah > and having telepathic powers are not the same thing as being a TP. > Telepathy is a very clearly defined parapsychological term, and only > deals with mind to mind communication, not PK, teleportation, or any of > the other TP powers. Both the OS series and books stated that some saps > had telepathic abilities, so it's possible to be a telepath yet not a > TP. Maybe telepaths are all potential TPs, maybe only a few have the > potential to break out. Regardless, I think only full TPs have the > "no-killing" instinct. > > I've been thinking about the basis for this instinct for non-violence, > and the concept of the TPs as the next stage of human evolution. A few > fans have pointed out in various articles and fan fics that being unable > to use lethal force to defend yourself is counter evolutionary; if you > believe in evolution (I know some don't, and I can respect that), it > bestows advantages on members of a species that allow them to survive > and propagate. Organisms with counter evolutionary adaptations quickly > die out. > > I think that the TP's are more than just a stage of genetic evolution, > but a stage of *societal* evolution as well. Look at their group > dynamic. They're individuals, and they have differing opinions, but they > nearly always pull together. And yet when they're beyond a certain range > from each other (like being at the Trig), they pretty much forget about > each other. My theory is that operating on the same telepathic frequency > creates a sense of unity amongst them, an evolutionary adaptation that > naturally makes them form a support group that counteracts their > inability to use violence, quite literally forming strength in numbers, > but that this effect has a relatively limited range, and that once > beyond it the TPs natural individuality re-emerges. With greater > numbers, this effect would create a sort of sense of brotherhood, but > also creating a natural divide between homo superior and homo sapiens, > guaranteeing that the genetic purity of homo superior would remain > intact and increasing the speed at which they would supplant the saps. > > I think that their telepathic awareness of living minds is the basis for > the TPs inability to use violence. All life generates an > electro-magnetic field, so it's not too much of a stretch to suggest > that anything with a brain generates a similar telepathic field. This > telepathic background noise is a continual reminder on a fundamental > level that all living things are connected. For most TPs, this awareness > is an integral part of them, allowing them to empathise with any living > creature, no matter what it is or what it's about to do, resulting in a > sort of paralysing horror at the thought of doing anything any harm. > Tyso, on the other hand, grew up knowing that everything is connected, > but also being aware that death is a part of life, so the empathy caused > by his telepathic powers doesn't slow him down at all. > > Stephen's brainwashing raises some interesting questions. Normally, > hypnosis and other simple mind control techniques can't make someone do > something that they wouldn't choose to do. However, CIA techniques > developed during the MK-ULTRA program *can*, by working intensively to > re-write the way the subject views the world. For example, a subject > might have a highly developed moral sense that prevents them from > killing humans, but he can be convinced that a target isn't a human > being and therefore must be killed. Many serial killers function by not > considering the people they kill as "real", so it's a possibility that > that's the route the Sorsons took with Stephen, forcing him to view > reality through a filter that reduced the people he killed to the status > of target dummies. > > Doctor TOC > -- > The Reverend Doctor "The Other Chris" > Secret Elf, Jive Talkin' Choirboy, God of Cowboy Spurs > ICQ # 4814586 > Daleks! 3D - http://users.rcn.com/otherchris/ > Time War RPG - http://jump.to/TimeWar > alt.tv.sevendays FAQ - http://welcome.to/7-Days > The TOC Files - http://members.fortunecity.com/toc ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: Doctor TOC Subject: Re: TPDIS: TPs and the Ability to Kill Date: 11 Nov 2002 14:32:28 -0500 John A. Merullo wrote: > > As I recall, the very first mention of what later came to be known as > the "Prime Barrier" was in "The Slaves of Jedekiah", when Carol as at > Stephen's bedside explaining who the TP are. She says "we can't kill. > Well, not deliberately, anyway." From the very beginning, it was set up > that a TP *could* cause a death, at least accidentally. One of the > common criticism of "The Blue and the Green" is that they may have > inadvertently cause many deaths by putting the whole world to sleep. Glad I'm not the only one who thought that :-) > but wasn't there an episode when > Adam had an issue with killing a shark? Yep. > I don't recall the exact brainwashing technique that the Sorsons used > was mentioned. I guess some sort of technology (possibly stolen from > another race, perhaps a telepathic one) may have been used, since the > Sorsons seemed too stupid to come up with such a thing on their own. I've got a theory (soon you'll all start to hate that phrase!) about the Sorsons. I reckon they're the puppets of something an awful lot smarter and nastier (the Kulthan, maybe?). > Agreed. I enjoyed "DS", but it had some major flaws. PVC was never, by > his own admission, a great actor. Of course, this never stopped me from > regarding Stephen as one of my favourite characters. I didn't like the > fact that two TPs were killed in this story, especially Hsui Tai, whom > I've always liked quite a bit and whose death is almost glossed over Yup, that's one of the things that rankled a lot. Having a TP kill just *once* is a shocker, but the rapid fire way we learned about the others just dulled the effect, and struck me as being horribly unnecessary, wasting the characters and the impact of their deaths. I think DS would have worked far better as a sort of "whodunnit" detective mystery - "Murder on the Galactic Trig", with the revelation of the murderer being a collossal surprise because of the supposed inviolate nature of the Prime Barrier. In their "Doctor Who" range, Big Finish have shown they can do that kind of story really well. I always liked Stephen. Doctor TOC -- The Reverend Doctor "The Other Chris" Secret Elf, Jive Talkin' Choirboy, God of Cowboy Spurs ICQ # 4814586 Daleks! 3D - http://users.rcn.com/otherchris/ Time War RPG - http://jump.to/TimeWar alt.tv.sevendays FAQ - http://welcome.to/7-Days The TOC Files - http://members.fortunecity.com/toc ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: CMento6653@aol.com Subject: Re: TPDIS: TPs and the Ability to Kill Date: 11 Nov 2002 14:57:49 EST --part1_4d.273d6bb0.2b0165bd_boundary Content-Type: text/plain; charset="US-ASCII" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit In a message dated 11/11/02 1:32:31 PM Eastern Standard Time, rockhopper@ev1.net writes: > He > seemed jealous of Mike's relationship with John (I'll let the obvious > pass by for now) and his killing Hsui Tai (had they ever even me IMO it was Mike who was jealous of Stephen's releationship with John. --part1_4d.273d6bb0.2b0165bd_boundary Content-Type: text/html; charset="US-ASCII" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit In a message dated 11/11/02 1:32:31 PM Eastern Standard Time, rockhopper@ev1.net writes:


He
seemed jealous of Mike's relationship with John (I'll let the obvious
pass by for now)  and his killing Hsui Tai (had they ever even me
IMO it was Mike who was jealous of Stephen's releationship with John. --part1_4d.273d6bb0.2b0165bd_boundary-- ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: CMento6653@aol.com Subject: Re: TPDIS: TPs and the Ability to Kill Date: 11 Nov 2002 14:58:49 EST --part1_121.19e2c996.2b0165f9_boundary Content-Type: text/plain; charset="US-ASCII" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit In a message dated 11/11/02 1:43:08 PM Eastern Standard Time, otherchris@erols.com writes: > > CMento6653@aol.com wrote: > > > >> Death has, by and large, been a part of the OS for its entire run, > >> though the TPs themselves were always above it. We understood that they > >> simply couldn't kill. But that statment was later proved (in canon) to > >> be incorrect. > > Uh, I didn't write this but maybe I misquoted it somehow. I'm not very good at quoting on line. --part1_121.19e2c996.2b0165f9_boundary Content-Type: text/html; charset="US-ASCII" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit In a message dated 11/11/02 1:43:08 PM Eastern Standard Time, otherchris@erols.com writes:



CMento6653@aol.com wrote:
>
>> Death has, by and large, been a part of the OS for its entire run,
>> though the TPs themselves were always above it. We understood that they
>> simply couldn't kill. But that statment was later proved (in canon) to
>> be incorrect.



Uh, I didn't write this but maybe I misquoted it somehow. I'm not very good at quoting on line. --part1_121.19e2c996.2b0165f9_boundary-- ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: CMento6653@aol.com Subject: Re: TPDIS: TPs and the Ability to Kill Date: 11 Nov 2002 14:59:34 EST --part1_94.2fa66fde.2b016626_boundary Content-Type: text/plain; charset="US-ASCII" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit In a message dated 11/11/02 1:43:08 PM Eastern Standard Time, otherchris@erols.com writes: > Hmmm. I'd like to agree with you here, as it sort of supports what I was > saying, but I'm not sure it hangs together. She didn't so much kill > herself as remove herself from the vicinity of others who would be hurt > when her implant was detonated. It's not quite the same thing, as she > didn't choose to die. > > Very true. But she did throw herself out a high story window but I see your point it was to save the others. --part1_94.2fa66fde.2b016626_boundary Content-Type: text/html; charset="US-ASCII" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit In a message dated 11/11/02 1:43:08 PM Eastern Standard Time, otherchris@erols.com writes:


Hmmm. I'd like to agree with you here, as it sort of supports what I was
saying, but I'm not sure it hangs together. She didn't so much kill
herself as remove herself from the vicinity of others who would be hurt
when her implant was detonated. It's not quite the same thing, as she
didn't choose to die.



Very true. But she did throw herself out a high story window but I see your point it was to save the others. --part1_94.2fa66fde.2b016626_boundary-- ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: CMento6653@aol.com Subject: Re: TPDIS: TPs and the Ability to Kill Date: 11 Nov 2002 15:01:43 EST --part1_77.1db7255.2b0166a7_boundary Content-Type: text/plain; charset="US-ASCII" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit In a message dated 11/11/02 2:22:08 PM Eastern Standard Time, ade@bestweb.net writes: > BUT....in the same way that on Highlander, immortals can tell other > possible immortals, the TP can tell possible TPs. We know this from > "Slaves". That is how they found Stephen in the first place. > > So if you are born to be a TP then the inate "non-kill" instinct should > be there. > > > > Hmm, not sure about this. I don't know that there are those "born" to be a TP that would have a non kill instinct. I guess it's nature vs nurture. I think if some possible Tps start to choose a life of secret agency, killing, and mean doing, they would NOT have that non kill instinct unless it started to make them feel guilty. Not sure about all that. --part1_77.1db7255.2b0166a7_boundary Content-Type: text/html; charset="US-ASCII" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit In a message dated 11/11/02 2:22:08 PM Eastern Standard Time, ade@bestweb.net writes:


BUT....in the same way that on Highlander, immortals can tell other
possible immortals, the TP can tell possible TPs. We know this from
"Slaves". That is how they found Stephen in the first place.

So if you are born to be a TP then the inate "non-kill" instinct should
be there.





Hmm, not sure about this. I don't know that there are those "born" to be a TP that would have a non kill instinct. I guess it's nature vs nurture. I think if some possible Tps start to choose a life of  secret agency, killing, and mean doing, they would NOT have that non kill instinct unless it started to make them feel guilty. Not sure about all that. --part1_77.1db7255.2b0166a7_boundary-- ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: CMento6653@aol.com Subject: Re: TPDIS: TPs and the Ability to Kill Date: 11 Nov 2002 15:02:28 EST --part1_186.10f4235e.2b0166d4_boundary Content-Type: text/plain; charset="US-ASCII" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit In a message dated 11/11/02 2:28:16 PM Eastern Standard Time, otherchris@erols.com writes: > cause a death, at least accidentally. One of the > > common criticism of "The Blue and the Green" is that they may have > > inadvertently cause many deaths by putting the whole world to sleep. > > I doubt that this is the case. I mean I'm sure they would have checked who they were putting to sleep. --part1_186.10f4235e.2b0166d4_boundary Content-Type: text/html; charset="US-ASCII" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit In a message dated 11/11/02 2:28:16 PM Eastern Standard Time, otherchris@erols.com writes:


cause a death, at least accidentally. One of the
> common criticism of "The Blue and the Green" is that they may have
> inadvertently cause many deaths by putting the whole world to sleep.



I doubt that this is the case. I mean I'm sure they would have checked who they were putting to sleep. --part1_186.10f4235e.2b0166d4_boundary-- ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: ade Subject: Re: TPDIS: TPs and the Ability to Kill Date: 11 Nov 2002 15:08:23 -0500 Exactly. But if it is true, and you are born and destined to break out, then the "no kill" isn't unwirable, thus proving the audio drama as sound. >>>>Hmm, not sure about this. I don't know that there are those "born" to be a TP that would have a non kill instinct. I guess it's nature vs nurture. I think if some possible Tps start to choose a life of secret agency, killing, and mean doing, they would NOT have that non kill instinct unless it started to make them feel guilty. Not sure about all that. ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: ade Subject: Re: TPDIS: TPs and the Ability to Kill Date: 11 Nov 2002 15:09:31 -0500 Nope. They used a satellite and the entire world went to bed. >>>>>>>>>>>>I doubt that this is the case. I mean I'm sure they would have checked who they were putting to sleep. ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: alpropes Subject: Re: TPDIS: TPs and the Ability to Kill Date: 11 Nov 2002 14:57:25 -0600 (CST) Cool! I'm not alone anymore! :) To summarize my arguments about the ability for TPs to kill, I've pulled from the following episodes: * In The Medusa Strain, Peter is intentionally attempting to destroy Jedikiah. If you are to give sentience to him (robot or not - he certainly had vengance on the CPU); then his destruction is tantamount to killing. * In Hearts of Sogguth, John resisted stabbing Elizabeth; he missed, but the arm followed through, and if Elizabeth didn't move, she would be dead or gravely wounded. We've seen aggression in TPs throughout the series. Finally, being a TP doesn't make you more than human; they're be subject to the same mental strains, conditions, and illnesses as Saps. Aaron --- Aaron Lee Propes The Tomorrow People Audio Reviews - http://www2.bitstream.net/~alpropes/tp On Mon, 11 Nov 2002, Doctor TOC wrote: > Kathryn Andersen wrote: > > > > Absolutely not. Not canon, that is. I'm sorry, but as soon as they > > made TPs able to kill, the BF audios and I parted ways... that's not > > being true to the series, IMHO. > > Really? That's quite interesting. I assume this has been gone over ad > nauseum before, but I wasn't around to see it, so I'm interested to hear > people's thoughts on this. If this topic has been ruled out of bounds, > please let me know - don't want to ruffle any feathers. > > Death has, by and large, been a part of the OS for its entire run, > though the TPs themselves were always above it. We understood that they > simply couldn't kill. But that statment was later proved (in canon) to > be incorrect. > > Saying a TP can't kill is wrong, because they obviously can, just (for > the most part) not deliberately. A TP is perfectly capable of --> Major snippage <-- ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: alpropes Subject: Re: TPDIS: TPs and the Ability to Kill Date: 11 Nov 2002 15:07:04 -0600 (CST) Was this in a book? I don't recall it ever being mentioned how they found Stephen. I always thought it was them picking up on a random, untrained telepathic signal, like they did with Elizabeth. --- Aaron Lee Propes The Tomorrow People Audio Reviews - http://www2.bitstream.net/~alpropes/tp On Mon, 11 Nov 2002, ade wrote: > BUT....in the same way that on Highlander, immortals can tell other > possible immortals, the TP can tell possible TPs. We know this from > "Slaves". That is how they found Stephen in the first place. > > So if you are born to be a TP then the inate "non-kill" instinct should > be there. > > > > Doctor TOC wrote: > > > > ade wrote: > > > If Patricia particpated in actions that lead to deaths, would that be > > > the same thing? We only knew her before she officially broke out but she > > > was still a telepath in every sense of the word. > > > > I think we need to be careful with definitions here. Being a teleptah > > and having telepathic powers are not the same thing as being a TP. > > Telepathy is a very clearly defined parapsychological term, and only > > deals with mind to mind communication, not PK, teleportation, or any of > > the other TP powers. Both the OS series and books stated that some saps > > had telepathic abilities, so it's possible to be a telepath yet not a > > TP. Maybe telepaths are all potential TPs, maybe only a few have the > > potential to break out. Regardless, I think only full TPs have the > > "no-killing" instinct. > > > > I've been thinking about the basis for this instinct for non-violence, > > and the concept of the TPs as the next stage of human evolution. A few > > fans have pointed out in various articles and fan fics that being unable > > to use lethal force to defend yourself is counter evolutionary; if you > > believe in evolution (I know some don't, and I can respect that), it > > bestows advantages on members of a species that allow them to survive > > and propagate. Organisms with counter evolutionary adaptations quickly > > die out. > > > > I think that the TP's are more than just a stage of genetic evolution, > > but a stage of *societal* evolution as well. Look at their group > > dynamic. They're individuals, and they have differing opinions, but they > > nearly always pull together. And yet when they're beyond a certain range > > from each other (like being at the Trig), they pretty much forget about > > each other. My theory is that operating on the same telepathic frequency > > creates a sense of unity amongst them, an evolutionary adaptation that > > naturally makes them form a support group that counteracts their > > inability to use violence, quite literally forming strength in numbers, > > but that this effect has a relatively limited range, and that once > > beyond it the TPs natural individuality re-emerges. With greater > > numbers, this effect would create a sort of sense of brotherhood, but > > also creating a natural divide between homo superior and homo sapiens, > > guaranteeing that the genetic purity of homo superior would remain > > intact and increasing the speed at which they would supplant the saps. > > > > I think that their telepathic awareness of living minds is the basis for > > the TPs inability to use violence. All life generates an > > electro-magnetic field, so it's not too much of a stretch to suggest > > that anything with a brain generates a similar telepathic field. This > > telepathic background noise is a continual reminder on a fundamental > > level that all living things are connected. For most TPs, this awareness > > is an integral part of them, allowing them to empathise with any living > > creature, no matter what it is or what it's about to do, resulting in a > > sort of paralysing horror at the thought of doing anything any harm. > > Tyso, on the other hand, grew up knowing that everything is connected, > > but also being aware that death is a part of life, so the empathy caused > > by his telepathic powers doesn't slow him down at all. > > > > Stephen's brainwashing raises some interesting questions. Normally, > > hypnosis and other simple mind control techniques can't make someone do > > something that they wouldn't choose to do. However, CIA techniques > > developed during the MK-ULTRA program *can*, by working intensively to > > re-write the way the subject views the world. For example, a subject > > might have a highly developed moral sense that prevents them from > > killing humans, but he can be convinced that a target isn't a human > > being and therefore must be killed. Many serial killers function by not > > considering the people they kill as "real", so it's a possibility that > > that's the route the Sorsons took with Stephen, forcing him to view > > reality through a filter that reduced the people he killed to the status > > of target dummies. > > > > Doctor TOC > > -- > > The Reverend Doctor "The Other Chris" > > Secret Elf, Jive Talkin' Choirboy, God of Cowboy Spurs > > ICQ # 4814586 > > Daleks! 3D - http://users.rcn.com/otherchris/ > > Time War RPG - http://jump.to/TimeWar > > alt.tv.sevendays FAQ - http://welcome.to/7-Days > > The TOC Files - http://members.fortunecity.com/toc > > ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: ade Subject: Re: TPDIS: TPs and the Ability to Kill Date: 11 Nov 2002 16:08:03 -0500 Right. But he hadn't broken out yet. So taking Dr TOC's reasoning into account he was just then a telepath and not a TP. The point is, they can find them regardless. If so, then they are likely bound to be TPs from birth. alpropes wrote: > > Was this in a book? I don't recall it ever being mentioned how they found > Stephen. I always thought it was them picking up on a random, untrained > telepathic signal, like they did with Elizabeth. > > --- > Aaron Lee Propes > The Tomorrow People Audio Reviews - http://www2.bitstream.net/~alpropes/tp > > On Mon, 11 Nov 2002, ade wrote: > > > BUT....in the same way that on Highlander, immortals can tell other > > possible immortals, the TP can tell possible TPs. We know this from > > "Slaves". That is how they found Stephen in the first place. > > > > So if you are born to be a TP then the inate "non-kill" instinct should > > be there. > > > > > > > > Doctor TOC wrote: > > > > > > ade wrote: > > > > If Patricia particpated in actions that lead to deaths, would that be > > > > the same thing? We only knew her before she officially broke out but she > > > > was still a telepath in every sense of the word. > > > > > > I think we need to be careful with definitions here. Being a teleptah > > > and having telepathic powers are not the same thing as being a TP. > > > Telepathy is a very clearly defined parapsychological term, and only > > > deals with mind to mind communication, not PK, teleportation, or any of > > > the other TP powers. Both the OS series and books stated that some saps > > > had telepathic abilities, so it's possible to be a telepath yet not a > > > TP. Maybe telepaths are all potential TPs, maybe only a few have the > > > potential to break out. Regardless, I think only full TPs have the > > > "no-killing" instinct. > > > > > > I've been thinking about the basis for this instinct for non-violence, > > > and the concept of the TPs as the next stage of human evolution. A few > > > fans have pointed out in various articles and fan fics that being unable > > > to use lethal force to defend yourself is counter evolutionary; if you > > > believe in evolution (I know some don't, and I can respect that), it > > > bestows advantages on members of a species that allow them to survive > > > and propagate. Organisms with counter evolutionary adaptations quickly > > > die out. > > > > > > I think that the TP's are more than just a stage of genetic evolution, > > > but a stage of *societal* evolution as well. Look at their group > > > dynamic. They're individuals, and they have differing opinions, but they > > > nearly always pull together. And yet when they're beyond a certain range > > > from each other (like being at the Trig), they pretty much forget about > > > each other. My theory is that operating on the same telepathic frequency > > > creates a sense of unity amongst them, an evolutionary adaptation that > > > naturally makes them form a support group that counteracts their > > > inability to use violence, quite literally forming strength in numbers, > > > but that this effect has a relatively limited range, and that once > > > beyond it the TPs natural individuality re-emerges. With greater > > > numbers, this effect would create a sort of sense of brotherhood, but > > > also creating a natural divide between homo superior and homo sapiens, > > > guaranteeing that the genetic purity of homo superior would remain > > > intact and increasing the speed at which they would supplant the saps. > > > > > > I think that their telepathic awareness of living minds is the basis for > > > the TPs inability to use violence. All life generates an > > > electro-magnetic field, so it's not too much of a stretch to suggest > > > that anything with a brain generates a similar telepathic field. This > > > telepathic background noise is a continual reminder on a fundamental > > > level that all living things are connected. For most TPs, this awareness > > > is an integral part of them, allowing them to empathise with any living > > > creature, no matter what it is or what it's about to do, resulting in a > > > sort of paralysing horror at the thought of doing anything any harm. > > > Tyso, on the other hand, grew up knowing that everything is connected, > > > but also being aware that death is a part of life, so the empathy caused > > > by his telepathic powers doesn't slow him down at all. > > > > > > Stephen's brainwashing raises some interesting questions. Normally, > > > hypnosis and other simple mind control techniques can't make someone do > > > something that they wouldn't choose to do. However, CIA techniques > > > developed during the MK-ULTRA program *can*, by working intensively to > > > re-write the way the subject views the world. For example, a subject > > > might have a highly developed moral sense that prevents them from > > > killing humans, but he can be convinced that a target isn't a human > > > being and therefore must be killed. Many serial killers function by not > > > considering the people they kill as "real", so it's a possibility that > > > that's the route the Sorsons took with Stephen, forcing him to view > > > reality through a filter that reduced the people he killed to the status > > > of target dummies. > > > > > > Doctor TOC > > > -- > > > The Reverend Doctor "The Other Chris" > > > Secret Elf, Jive Talkin' Choirboy, God of Cowboy Spurs > > > ICQ # 4814586 > > > Daleks! 3D - http://users.rcn.com/otherchris/ > > > Time War RPG - http://jump.to/TimeWar > > > alt.tv.sevendays FAQ - http://welcome.to/7-Days > > > The TOC Files - http://members.fortunecity.com/toc > > > > ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: "John A. Merullo" Subject: Re: TPDIS: Stephen and Mike (Was TPs and the Ability to Kill) Date: 11 Nov 2002 15:13:12 -0600 "Deadliest Species" spoiler ahead: CMento6653@aol.com wrote: > In a message dated 11/11/02 1:32:31 PM Eastern Standard Time, > rockhopper@ev1.net writes: > > >> He >> seemed jealous of Mike's relationship with John > > > > IMO it was Mike who was jealous of Stephen's releationship with John. During series four when Mike and Stephen both were part of the cast, I could understand Mike being jealous of the fact that Stephen and John had become close friends and perhaps that may have lingered unspoken for Mike for the duration of the OS, but in "Deadliest Species", Stephen mumbles to John under his breath "Sorry I'm not Mike." and later goes on to Elena how Mike moved in and he was moved out. Of course Stephen is not in his right mind in DS, so that may have brought this out more than it would have been otherwise. John ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: "Jackie Clark" Subject: Re: TPDIS: Chat Date: 11 Nov 2002 21:29:06 -0000 please make some suggestions of more appropriate servers. I haven't had a very good response to my call for ten volunteers anyway. -Jackie ----- Original Message ----- Sent: Sunday, November 10, 2002 6:10 PM > Okay :) > > Seeing as this is an issue very close to my own heart, I'm going to put my > tuppence worth in :) > > First of all, Jackie is doing a fantastic job of running the IRC channel, > and all the people who come in a chat really enjoy their stay. (I know I > certainly do) > However, I honestly think Undernet is not a particularly ideal choice for a > new channel, and I think other, smaller servers are probably better suited > to the needs of the TP community ;) (Wow, lotsa big words..) > > Does anybody else agree with this, becuase If I'm speaking out of line, just > tell me to sit down in a corner and be quiet ;) > > Take care ppls > > TinyTim / Simon Fraser > > > ----- Original Message ----- > From: Jackie Clark > To: > Sent: Sunday, November 10, 2002 5:28 PM > Subject: Re: TPDIS: Chat > > > Hello All > Tigger wrote: > I know very little about IRC (I go to our chats and that's about it). > > Presuming that you can get to Undernet with the same kinds of clients as > > dalnet (and therefore not have to pay for all new software) it seems > > like a good idea to me. > > I've made some investigations regarding re-registering our chat channel on > Undernet. You can get to it simply by choosing any Undernet server. Many > come pre-loaded into your irc program so there is no need for new software > etc. I like to use the London server which seems to give uk users a very > quick response time... > > The problem with Undernet is that they do not allow channels to register > just like that! They need at least ten people who agree to be regular ops. > These people have to register, on a particular web site, their interest in > supporting the channel. > > They also like a channel to be up and running for some time (about two weeks > minimum) with regular visitors, for them to consider it worth registering. > > What I need are ten volunteers who can guarantee to support the channel, > these people would need to visit the channel over a few designated weeks (we > can arrange this later) at a specific time, so that we build up enough > activity within the channel to make it viable. > > At the moment anyone can go onto irc Undernet and type /join #TomorrowPeople > > I'd appreciate it if a number of people from the list could do this. You > will not find a regular welcome message and may find the channel empty. What > you are doing is recreating a new channel under that name each time, and > Undernet will probably give you ops status for the time that you are in the > channel. When you leave the channel will disappear, until someone else comes > along... if we can all do this then we'll be able to establish a place for > us to meet and talk in real time. > > I am grateful to the various people who have founded and maintained TP chat > over the years. I believe that it is a useful additional facility to all > list members and there fore worth continuing. > > It's been a while since I organised a live chat with a cast member... would > anyone be interested in James/Daniel Wilson coming to talk about the new > CD's and the direction he feels they are going in? > > Thanks for the support > > Jackie > > > ----- Original Message ----- > From: Beth E. > To: > Sent: Sunday, November 10, 2002 3:03 PM > Subject: Re: TPDIS: Chat > > > > > > On Sunday, November 10, 2002, at 02:51 AM, Jackie Clark wrote: > > > > > I've noticed that Dalnet has had some major problems lately when whole > > > areas > > > of the world cannot log on. If I cannot get into Dalnet in another few > > > weeks > > > the TP chat channel will disappear as a registered channel. > > > > That's why I've been having so much trouble? I was begining to wonder > > if my ISP had been blocked or something. > > > > > > > > I've been considering moving the channel onto Undernet and wondered how > > > people felt about this? The Undernet servers are seldom full and > > > connection > > > is much easier. > > > > > > > > What's the point of having Chat if no one can get there to talk? > > Tigger > > > > > > > > ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: alpropes Subject: TPDIS: Big Finish Update Date: 11 Nov 2002 15:30:44 -0600 (CST) Just caught this on Big Finish's site (sorry if I'm duplicating anyone). A New Atlantis is due out in Decemeber, followed by The Power of Fear and The Curse of Karvaan. The fourth CD is unnamed as yet. Best news yet: a third season of audios is already confirmed! --- Aaron Lee Propes The Tomorrow People Audio Reviews - http://www2.bitstream.net/~alpropes/tp ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: ade Subject: Re: TPDIS: Chat Date: 11 Nov 2002 16:29:21 -0500 Hmmm....maybe messages ARE getting lost. I volunteered to OP. Also I suggested efnet as an undernet alternative. There are also smaller IRC networks...plus there is also the possibility of adding a private java chat to one of our websites. And of course there is always the possibility of moving to a different sort of chat client altogether like Paltalk. Jackie Clark wrote: > > please make some suggestions of more appropriate servers. I haven't had a > very good response to my call for ten volunteers anyway. > > -Jackie > ----- Original Message ----- > From: "Simon Fraser" > To: > Sent: Sunday, November 10, 2002 6:10 PM > Subject: Re: TPDIS: Chat > > > Okay :) > > > > Seeing as this is an issue very close to my own heart, I'm going to put my > > tuppence worth in :) > > > > First of all, Jackie is doing a fantastic job of running the IRC channel, > > and all the people who come in a chat really enjoy their stay. (I know I > > certainly do) > > However, I honestly think Undernet is not a particularly ideal choice for > a > > new channel, and I think other, smaller servers are probably better suited > > to the needs of the TP community ;) (Wow, lotsa big words..) > > > > Does anybody else agree with this, becuase If I'm speaking out of line, > just > > tell me to sit down in a corner and be quiet ;) > > > > Take care ppls > > > > TinyTim / Simon Fraser > > > > > > ----- Original Message ----- > > From: Jackie Clark > > To: > > Sent: Sunday, November 10, 2002 5:28 PM > > Subject: Re: TPDIS: Chat > > > > > > Hello All > > Tigger wrote: > > I know very little about IRC (I go to our chats and that's about it). > > > Presuming that you can get to Undernet with the same kinds of clients as > > > dalnet (and therefore not have to pay for all new software) it seems > > > like a good idea to me. > > > > I've made some investigations regarding re-registering our chat channel on > > Undernet. You can get to it simply by choosing any Undernet server. Many > > come pre-loaded into your irc program so there is no need for new software > > etc. I like to use the London server which seems to give uk users a very > > quick response time... > > > > The problem with Undernet is that they do not allow channels to register > > just like that! They need at least ten people who agree to be regular ops. > > These people have to register, on a particular web site, their interest in > > supporting the channel. > > > > They also like a channel to be up and running for some time (about two > weeks > > minimum) with regular visitors, for them to consider it worth registering. > > > > What I need are ten volunteers who can guarantee to support the channel, > > these people would need to visit the channel over a few designated weeks > (we > > can arrange this later) at a specific time, so that we build up enough > > activity within the channel to make it viable. > > > > At the moment anyone can go onto irc Undernet and type /join > #TomorrowPeople > > > > I'd appreciate it if a number of people from the list could do this. You > > will not find a regular welcome message and may find the channel empty. > What > > you are doing is recreating a new channel under that name each time, and > > Undernet will probably give you ops status for the time that you are in > the > > channel. When you leave the channel will disappear, until someone else > comes > > along... if we can all do this then we'll be able to establish a place for > > us to meet and talk in real time. > > > > I am grateful to the various people who have founded and maintained TP > chat > > over the years. I believe that it is a useful additional facility to all > > list members and there fore worth continuing. > > > > It's been a while since I organised a live chat with a cast member... > would > > anyone be interested in James/Daniel Wilson coming to talk about the new > > CD's and the direction he feels they are going in? > > > > Thanks for the support > > > > Jackie > > > > > > ----- Original Message ----- > > From: Beth E. > > To: > > Sent: Sunday, November 10, 2002 3:03 PM > > Subject: Re: TPDIS: Chat > > > > > > > > > > On Sunday, November 10, 2002, at 02:51 AM, Jackie Clark wrote: > > > > > > > I've noticed that Dalnet has had some major problems lately when whole > > > > areas > > > > of the world cannot log on. If I cannot get into Dalnet in another few > > > > weeks > > > > the TP chat channel will disappear as a registered channel. > > > > > > That's why I've been having so much trouble? I was begining to wonder > > > if my ISP had been blocked or something. > > > > > > > > > > > I've been considering moving the channel onto Undernet and wondered > how > > > > people felt about this? The Undernet servers are seldom full and > > > > connection > > > > is much easier. > > > > > > > > > > > What's the point of having Chat if no one can get there to talk? > > > Tigger > > > > > > > > > > > > > > ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: Michael Matott Subject: Re: TPDIS: TPs and the Ability to Kill Date: 11 Nov 2002 13:35:43 -0800 (PST) --- "John A. Merullo" wrote: > One would imagine > that Hsui Tai was a > vegetarian because she was probably raised as one, > growing up in an > Eastern monastery, but that is purely speculation. I'd argue against it. In Northern India and Tibet, the various tribes tend not to be vegetarian. The more mountainous areas of this region tend to have tribes that rely on livestock for clothing, food, and other materials. Given her appearance and the particulars of the sect, it sounds like Hsui Tai was likely from Tibet. I don't remember if it was ever specifically stated in that first story of hers (Secret Gods?) where she was from. It doesn't mean she wasn't a vegetarian, but I doubt a monsastary that practiced routine human sacrifices would be opposed to eating meat for religious reasons. :-) mike __________________________________________________ Do you Yahoo!? U2 on LAUNCH - Exclusive greatest hits videos http://launch.yahoo.com/u2 ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: "Jackie Clark" Subject: Re: TPDIS: Chat Date: 11 Nov 2002 21:42:35 -0000 You and Simon are the only people who volunteered. I'm assuming that Shaun, Wendy, Carolyn, Megan and Arpi still wish to remain as channel ops but as some of them are very busy with college work etc. they can bow out now. I appreciate the help they have given over the years... Efnet sounds like a good suggestion. I can look into it as a possible source. I'm steering clear of using anyone's web site atm. IRC has been an established meeting place for TP fans for years and personally speaking I like it! Jackie ----- Original Message ----- Sent: Monday, November 11, 2002 9:29 PM > Hmmm....maybe messages ARE getting lost. > > I volunteered to OP. Also I suggested efnet as an undernet alternative. > There are also smaller IRC networks...plus there is also the possibility > of adding a private java chat to one of our websites. > > And of course there is always the possibility of moving to a different > sort of chat client altogether like Paltalk. > > > Jackie Clark wrote: > > > > please make some suggestions of more appropriate servers. I haven't had a > > very good response to my call for ten volunteers anyway. > > > > -Jackie > > ----- Original Message ----- > > From: "Simon Fraser" > > To: > > Sent: Sunday, November 10, 2002 6:10 PM > > Subject: Re: TPDIS: Chat > > > > > Okay :) > > > > > > Seeing as this is an issue very close to my own heart, I'm going to put my > > > tuppence worth in :) > > > > > > First of all, Jackie is doing a fantastic job of running the IRC channel, > > > and all the people who come in a chat really enjoy their stay. (I know I > > > certainly do) > > > However, I honestly think Undernet is not a particularly ideal choice for > > a > > > new channel, and I think other, smaller servers are probably better suited > > > to the needs of the TP community ;) (Wow, lotsa big words..) > > > > > > Does anybody else agree with this, becuase If I'm speaking out of line, > > just > > > tell me to sit down in a corner and be quiet ;) > > > > > > Take care ppls > > > > > > TinyTim / Simon Fraser > > > > > > > > > ----- Original Message ----- > > > From: Jackie Clark > > > To: > > > Sent: Sunday, November 10, 2002 5:28 PM > > > Subject: Re: TPDIS: Chat > > > > > > > > > Hello All > > > Tigger wrote: > > > I know very little about IRC (I go to our chats and that's about it). > > > > Presuming that you can get to Undernet with the same kinds of clients as > > > > dalnet (and therefore not have to pay for all new software) it seems > > > > like a good idea to me. > > > > > > I've made some investigations regarding re-registering our chat channel on > > > Undernet. You can get to it simply by choosing any Undernet server. Many > > > come pre-loaded into your irc program so there is no need for new software > > > etc. I like to use the London server which seems to give uk users a very > > > quick response time... > > > > > > The problem with Undernet is that they do not allow channels to register > > > just like that! They need at least ten people who agree to be regular ops. > > > These people have to register, on a particular web site, their interest in > > > supporting the channel. > > > > > > They also like a channel to be up and running for some time (about two > > weeks > > > minimum) with regular visitors, for them to consider it worth registering. > > > > > > What I need are ten volunteers who can guarantee to support the channel, > > > these people would need to visit the channel over a few designated weeks > > (we > > > can arrange this later) at a specific time, so that we build up enough > > > activity within the channel to make it viable. > > > > > > At the moment anyone can go onto irc Undernet and type /join > > #TomorrowPeople > > > > > > I'd appreciate it if a number of people from the list could do this. You > > > will not find a regular welcome message and may find the channel empty. > > What > > > you are doing is recreating a new channel under that name each time, and > > > Undernet will probably give you ops status for the time that you are in > > the > > > channel. When you leave the channel will disappear, until someone else > > comes > > > along... if we can all do this then we'll be able to establish a place for > > > us to meet and talk in real time. > > > > > > I am grateful to the various people who have founded and maintained TP > > chat > > > over the years. I believe that it is a useful additional facility to all > > > list members and there fore worth continuing. > > > > > > It's been a while since I organised a live chat with a cast member... > > would > > > anyone be interested in James/Daniel Wilson coming to talk about the new > > > CD's and the direction he feels they are going in? > > > > > > Thanks for the support > > > > > > Jackie > > > > > > > > > ----- Original Message ----- > > > From: Beth E. > > > To: > > > Sent: Sunday, November 10, 2002 3:03 PM > > > Subject: Re: TPDIS: Chat > > > > > > > > > > > > > > On Sunday, November 10, 2002, at 02:51 AM, Jackie Clark wrote: > > > > > > > > > I've noticed that Dalnet has had some major problems lately when whole > > > > > areas > > > > > of the world cannot log on. If I cannot get into Dalnet in another few > > > > > weeks > > > > > the TP chat channel will disappear as a registered channel. > > > > > > > > That's why I've been having so much trouble? I was begining to wonder > > > > if my ISP had been blocked or something. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > I've been considering moving the channel onto Undernet and wondered > > how > > > > > people felt about this? The Undernet servers are seldom full and > > > > > connection > > > > > is much easier. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > What's the point of having Chat if no one can get there to talk? > > > > Tigger > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: ade Subject: Re: TPDIS: Chat Date: 11 Nov 2002 16:48:06 -0500 Well I rarely chat via IRC but it isn't much of a bother to log in once a week and let the system auto op me, so that it appears on their server logs :-) Jackie Clark wrote: > > You and Simon are the only people who volunteered. I'm assuming that Shaun, > Wendy, Carolyn, Megan and Arpi still wish to remain as channel ops but as > some of them are very busy with college work etc. they can bow out now. I > appreciate the help they have given over the years... > > Efnet sounds like a good suggestion. I can look into it as a possible > source. I'm steering clear of using anyone's web site atm. IRC has been an > established meeting place for TP fans for years and personally speaking I > like it! > > Jackie > > ----- Original Message ----- > From: "ade" > To: > Sent: Monday, November 11, 2002 9:29 PM > Subject: Re: TPDIS: Chat > > > Hmmm....maybe messages ARE getting lost. > > > > I volunteered to OP. Also I suggested efnet as an undernet alternative. > > There are also smaller IRC networks...plus there is also the possibility > > of adding a private java chat to one of our websites. > > > > And of course there is always the possibility of moving to a different > > sort of chat client altogether like Paltalk. > > > > > > Jackie Clark wrote: > > > > > > please make some suggestions of more appropriate servers. I haven't had > a > > > very good response to my call for ten volunteers anyway. > > > > > > -Jackie > > > ----- Original Message ----- > > > From: "Simon Fraser" > > > To: > > > Sent: Sunday, November 10, 2002 6:10 PM > > > Subject: Re: TPDIS: Chat > > > > > > > Okay :) > > > > > > > > Seeing as this is an issue very close to my own heart, I'm going to > put my > > > > tuppence worth in :) > > > > > > > > First of all, Jackie is doing a fantastic job of running the IRC > channel, > > > > and all the people who come in a chat really enjoy their stay. (I > know I > > > > certainly do) > > > > However, I honestly think Undernet is not a particularly ideal choice > for > > > a > > > > new channel, and I think other, smaller servers are probably better > suited > > > > to the needs of the TP community ;) (Wow, lotsa big words..) > > > > > > > > Does anybody else agree with this, becuase If I'm speaking out of > line, > > > just > > > > tell me to sit down in a corner and be quiet ;) > > > > > > > > Take care ppls > > > > > > > > TinyTim / Simon Fraser > > > > > > > > > > > > ----- Original Message ----- > > > > From: Jackie Clark > > > > To: > > > > Sent: Sunday, November 10, 2002 5:28 PM > > > > Subject: Re: TPDIS: Chat > > > > > > > > > > > > Hello All > > > > Tigger wrote: > > > > I know very little about IRC (I go to our chats and that's about it). > > > > > Presuming that you can get to Undernet with the same kinds of > clients as > > > > > dalnet (and therefore not have to pay for all new software) it seems > > > > > like a good idea to me. > > > > > > > > I've made some investigations regarding re-registering our chat > channel on > > > > Undernet. You can get to it simply by choosing any Undernet server. > Many > > > > come pre-loaded into your irc program so there is no need for new > software > > > > etc. I like to use the London server which seems to give uk users a > very > > > > quick response time... > > > > > > > > The problem with Undernet is that they do not allow channels to > register > > > > just like that! They need at least ten people who agree to be regular > ops. > > > > These people have to register, on a particular web site, their > interest in > > > > supporting the channel. > > > > > > > > They also like a channel to be up and running for some time (about two > > > weeks > > > > minimum) with regular visitors, for them to consider it worth > registering. > > > > > > > > What I need are ten volunteers who can guarantee to support the > channel, > > > > these people would need to visit the channel over a few designated > weeks > > > (we > > > > can arrange this later) at a specific time, so that we build up enough > > > > activity within the channel to make it viable. > > > > > > > > At the moment anyone can go onto irc Undernet and type /join > > > #TomorrowPeople > > > > > > > > I'd appreciate it if a number of people from the list could do this. > You > > > > will not find a regular welcome message and may find the channel > empty. > > > What > > > > you are doing is recreating a new channel under that name each time, > and > > > > Undernet will probably give you ops status for the time that you are > in > > > the > > > > channel. When you leave the channel will disappear, until someone else > > > comes > > > > along... if we can all do this then we'll be able to establish a place > for > > > > us to meet and talk in real time. > > > > > > > > I am grateful to the various people who have founded and maintained TP > > > chat > > > > over the years. I believe that it is a useful additional facility to > all > > > > list members and there fore worth continuing. > > > > > > > > It's been a while since I organised a live chat with a cast member... > > > would > > > > anyone be interested in James/Daniel Wilson coming to talk about the > new > > > > CD's and the direction he feels they are going in? > > > > > > > > Thanks for the support > > > > > > > > Jackie > > > > > > > > > > > > ----- Original Message ----- > > > > From: Beth E. > > > > To: > > > > Sent: Sunday, November 10, 2002 3:03 PM > > > > Subject: Re: TPDIS: Chat > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > On Sunday, November 10, 2002, at 02:51 AM, Jackie Clark wrote: > > > > > > > > > > > I've noticed that Dalnet has had some major problems lately when > whole > > > > > > areas > > > > > > of the world cannot log on. If I cannot get into Dalnet in another > few > > > > > > weeks > > > > > > the TP chat channel will disappear as a registered channel. > > > > > > > > > > That's why I've been having so much trouble? I was begining to > wonder > > > > > if my ISP had been blocked or something. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > I've been considering moving the channel onto Undernet and > wondered > > > how > > > > > > people felt about this? The Undernet servers are seldom full and > > > > > > connection > > > > > > is much easier. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > What's the point of having Chat if no one can get there to talk? > > > > > Tigger > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: "Shaun Hately" Subject: Re: TPDIS: Chat Date: 12 Nov 2002 08:55:55 +1100 On 11 Nov 2002 at 16:29, ade wrote: > Hmmm....maybe messages ARE getting lost. > > I volunteered to OP. Also I suggested efnet as an undernet alternative. > There are also smaller IRC networks...plus there is also the possibility > of adding a private java chat to one of our websites. > > And of course there is always the possibility of moving to a different > sort of chat client altogether like Paltalk. I'm flexible - except on one issue - I won't use Java based chats - so if people want me to turn up, that had better not be the method used - this is a real prohibition for me - I am contractually prevented from regular attendance at any java based chatroom due to data security concerns. Yours Without Wax, Dreadnought Shaun Hately |webpage: http://www.alphalink.com.au/~drednort/thelab.html (ISTJ) |email: drednort@alphalink.com.au | ICQ: 6898200 "You know the very powerful and the very stupid have one thing in common. They don't alter their views to fit the facts. They alter the facts to fit the views. Which can be uncomfortable if you happen to be one of the facts that need altering." The Doctor - Doctor Who: The Face of Evil | Where am I: Frankston, Victoria, Australia ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: Doctor TOC Subject: Re: TPDIS: TPs and the Ability to Kill Date: 11 Nov 2002 17:05:40 -0500 ade wrote: > BUT....in the same way that on Highlander, immortals can tell other > possible immortals, the TP can tell possible TPs. We know this from > "Slaves". That is how they found Stephen in the first place. > > So if you are born to be a TP then the inate "non-kill" instinct should > be there. They can sense someone who's close to breaking out, but that's not quite the same thing as sensing possible TPs. As far as I'm aware, we've not seen them do anything more than that. In "Highlander", Richie Ryan was spotted as a "pre-immortal" well over a year before he died and rose again, but we see nothing like that in the OS (don't know about the NS). The closest we get is in Roger Price's novel "the Visitor", when Stephen wonders if the all the kids in the park will grow up and break out into Tomorrow People. If they could sense the presence of neonate TPs, he wouldn't be wondering. He'd know (in know the books aren't considered canon by most, but given that it was written by Roger Price, it's obvious that his intention was that the TP's could only sense the beginnings of break out). I think it's likely that the break out process has an initial phase, during which time a new TP begins to broadcast packets of "clear signal" (as opposed to the normal noise that most Saps generate), which the TPs use to track them down. Before this begins, I don't think they stand out from the crowd much. Whether or not the "no-killing" instinct is active even before they break out really depends on what's behind it. Both Tricia Conway and Pavla were potential TP's, but both worked in an intelligence capacity that may well have cost the lives of enemy agents. Assuming the instinct for non-violence doesn't just apply to violence directly at the hands of the TP, the evidence suggests that the instinct may only kick in *after* break out, otherwise the pair of them would have been utterly useless at their jobs. The series also suggests that there's no such thing as being born to be a TP. Sure, you may be born with the *potential*, but the break out itself can be supressed (Tricia Conway again). Doctor TOC -- The Reverend Doctor "The Other Chris" Secret Elf, Jive Talkin' Choirboy, God of Cowboy Spurs ICQ # 4814586 Daleks! 3D - http://users.rcn.com/otherchris/ Time War RPG - http://jump.to/TimeWar alt.tv.sevendays FAQ - http://welcome.to/7-Days The TOC Files - http://members.fortunecity.com/toc ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: CMento6653@aol.com Subject: Re: TPDIS: TPs and the Ability to Kill Date: 11 Nov 2002 17:02:56 EST --part1_110.1b7bd0b8.2b018310_boundary Content-Type: text/plain; charset="US-ASCII" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit In a message dated 11/11/02 3:11:26 PM Eastern Standard Time, ade@bestweb.net writes: > > Exactly. But if it is true, and you are born and destined to break out, > then the "no kill" isn't unwirable, thus proving the audio drama as > sound. > > > I think if someone chooses to kill, it is unwirable. I think there is good reason to think a TP that was choosing to kill, would either turn evil bypassing the prime barrier or die from that choice. Or maybe even a future Tp would not break out for choosing to kill ...Remember John was taken over and about to kill Liz in HEART OF SOGGOTH and he would have had she not jaunted or am I remembering this wrong? --part1_110.1b7bd0b8.2b018310_boundary Content-Type: text/html; charset="US-ASCII" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit In a message dated 11/11/02 3:11:26 PM Eastern Standard Time, ade@bestweb.net writes:



Exactly. But if it is true, and you are born and destined to break out,
then the "no kill" isn't unwirable, thus proving the audio drama as
sound.




I think if someone chooses to kill, it is unwirable. I think there is good reason to think a TP that was choosing to kill, would either turn evil bypassing the prime barrier or die from that choice. Or maybe even a future Tp would not break out for choosing to kill ...Remember John was taken over and about to kill Liz in HEART OF SOGGOTH and he would have had she not jaunted or am I remembering this wrong?   --part1_110.1b7bd0b8.2b018310_boundary-- ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: CMento6653@aol.com Subject: Re: TPDIS: TPs and the Ability to Kill Date: 11 Nov 2002 17:04:50 EST --part1_68.28822979.2b018382_boundary Content-Type: text/plain; charset="US-ASCII" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit In a message dated 11/11/02 3:12:28 PM Eastern Standard Time, ade@bestweb.net writes: > > Nope. They used a satellite and the entire world went to bed. > > > So you think they wouldn't have made allowance for people driving, flying planes etc? I think the story would have followed a different course if that were the case. I think there were instances of people in their cars, who were driving, asleep and not dead at the wheel in some accident. I also cannot and willnot accept the fact that the Tp would put everyone to sleep and cause death...remember they were trying to stop violent death... --part1_68.28822979.2b018382_boundary Content-Type: text/html; charset="US-ASCII" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit In a message dated 11/11/02 3:12:28 PM Eastern Standard Time, ade@bestweb.net writes:



Nope. They used a satellite and the entire world went to bed.




So you think they wouldn't have made allowance for people driving, flying planes etc? I think the story would have followed a different course if that were the case. I think there were instances of  people in their cars, who were driving, asleep and not dead at the wheel in some accident. I also cannot and willnot accept the fact that the Tp would put everyone to sleep and cause death...remember they were trying to stop violent death... --part1_68.28822979.2b018382_boundary-- ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: CMento6653@aol.com Subject: Re: TPDIS: TPs and the Ability to Kill Date: 11 Nov 2002 17:07:32 EST --part1_4d.273e9a21.2b018424_boundary Content-Type: text/plain; charset="US-ASCII" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit In a message dated 11/11/02 4:36:04 PM Eastern Standard Time, greyfalcon_1@yahoo.com writes: > doesn't mean she wasn't a vegetarian, but I doubt a > monsastary that practiced routine human sacrifices > would be opposed to eating meat for religious reasons. > :-) Uhm, there were only two of them that knew the sacrifices were for real I think. That would mean the pretense of trying to do thing the "religious way". Not being up on my Tibetan research I'm not sure if they ate meat or not. --part1_4d.273e9a21.2b018424_boundary Content-Type: text/html; charset="US-ASCII" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit In a message dated 11/11/02 4:36:04 PM Eastern Standard Time, greyfalcon_1@yahoo.com writes:


doesn't mean she wasn't a vegetarian, but I doubt a
monsastary that practiced routine human sacrifices
would be opposed to eating meat for religious reasons.
:-)
Uhm, there were only two of them that knew the sacrifices were for real I think. That would mean the pretense of  trying to do thing the "religious way". Not being up on my Tibetan research I'm not sure if they ate meat or not. --part1_4d.273e9a21.2b018424_boundary-- ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: Doctor TOC Subject: Re: TPDIS: TPs and the Ability to Kill Date: 11 Nov 2002 17:13:10 -0500 alpropes wrote: > Cool! I'm not alone anymore! :) One of the things I'm really enjoying about this list is the way there seems to be plenty of room for dissenting opinions. It's a real breath of fresh air. > To summarize my arguments about the > ability for TPs to kill, I've pulled from the following episodes: > > * In The Medusa Strain, Peter is intentionally attempting to destroy > Jedikiah. If you are to give sentience to him (robot or not - he > certainly had vengance on the CPU); then his destruction is > tantamount to killing. Nice one. This raises an interesting point. Does the no-killing rule apply purely to organic life-forms, or could it be applied to other things? Can TP's play first-person shooter games, or do they lock up at the mere thought of harming another, even if that person isn't real? Could they kill TIM? > * In Hearts of Sogguth, John resisted stabbing Elizabeth; he missed, > but the arm followed through, and if Elizabeth didn't move, she would > be dead or gravely wounded. This one is more telling. A TP is compelled to attempt to kill another, and makes the attempt despite fighting it. The events of "The Deadliest Species" just build on that foundation (albeit rather unnecessarily, IMHO). > We've seen aggression in TPs throughout the series. > > Finally, being a TP doesn't make you more than human; they're be > subject to the same mental strains, conditions, and illnesses as > Saps. Nicely put. Doctor TOC -- The Reverend Doctor "The Other Chris" Secret Elf, Jive Talkin' Choirboy, God of Cowboy Spurs ICQ # 4814586 Daleks! 3D - http://users.rcn.com/otherchris/ Time War RPG - http://jump.to/TimeWar alt.tv.sevendays FAQ - http://welcome.to/7-Days The TOC Files - http://members.fortunecity.com/toc ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: CMento6653@aol.com Subject: Re: TPDIS: TPs and the Ability to Kill Date: 11 Nov 2002 17:08:17 EST --part1_12.288f547d.2b018451_boundary Content-Type: text/plain; charset="US-ASCII" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit In a message dated 11/11/02 3:58:06 PM Eastern Standard Time, alpropes@bitstream.net writes: > (robot or not - he certainly > had vengance on the CPU); then his destruction what's a CPU? --part1_12.288f547d.2b018451_boundary Content-Type: text/html; charset="US-ASCII" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit In a message dated 11/11/02 3:58:06 PM Eastern Standard Time, alpropes@bitstream.net writes:


(robot or not - he certainly
had vengance on the CPU); then his destruction


what's a CPU? --part1_12.288f547d.2b018451_boundary-- ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: Doctor TOC Subject: Re: TPDIS: TPs and the Ability to Kill Date: 11 Nov 2002 17:15:29 -0500 CMento6653@aol.com wrote: > > what's a CPU? Central Processing Unit. Doctor TOC -- The Reverend Doctor "The Other Chris" Secret Elf, Jive Talkin' Choirboy, God of Cowboy Spurs ICQ # 4814586 Daleks! 3D - http://users.rcn.com/otherchris/ Time War RPG - http://jump.to/TimeWar alt.tv.sevendays FAQ - http://welcome.to/7-Days The TOC Files - http://members.fortunecity.com/toc ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: ade Subject: Re: TPDIS: TPs and the Ability to Kill Date: 11 Nov 2002 17:09:13 -0500 If we take the events of the show on face value, no. How could they? How could they POSSIBLY find out where every person on the face of the Earth is one second prior to the second they enacted the plan? >>>>>>>>>>>>>>So you think they wouldn't have made allowance for people driving, flying planes etc? I think the story would have followed a different course if that were the case. I think there were instances of people in their cars, who were driving, asleep and not dead at the wheel in some accident. I also cannot and willnot accept the fact that the Tp would put everyone to sleep and cause death...remember they were trying to stop violent death... ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: alpropes Subject: Re: TPDIS: TPs and the Ability to Kill Date: 11 Nov 2002 16:15:13 -0600 (CST) Although they were clearly using stock footage, and not anything they shot themselves (it was pretty elaborate for something like that - but maybe I'm wrong), but there was at least one shot with a car off the road and a person on top of it - not explicitly dead, but one can wonder. They're also facing an impending crisis that would have killed everybody on the planet. Chances are, given the circumstances, their brains would have blocked out the carnage that would have happened, and what did anticipate the consequences hope most of the planes were on autopilot, or traffic control would order them to engage it after the first large section of the planet went under. They also had to take the risk that they would be too late; what section of the planet would you be willing to sacrifice if the hatching happened before earth was done being stunned? Aaron --- Aaron Lee Propes The Tomorrow People Audio Reviews - http://www2.bitstream.net/~alpropes/tp On Mon, 11 Nov 2002 CMento6653@aol.com wrote: > In a message dated 11/11/02 3:12:28 PM Eastern Standard Time, ade@bestweb.net > writes: > > > > > > Nope. They used a satellite and the entire world went to bed. > > > > > > > > So you think they wouldn't have made allowance for people driving, flying > planes etc? I think the story would have followed a different course if that > were the case. I think there were instances of people in their cars, who > were driving, asleep and not dead at the wheel in some accident. I also > cannot and willnot accept the fact that the Tp would put everyone to sleep > and cause death...remember they were trying to stop violent death... > ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: CMento6653@aol.com Subject: Re: TPDIS: TPs and the Ability to Kill Date: 11 Nov 2002 17:17:09 EST --part1_136.16f3cb2a.2b018665_boundary Content-Type: text/plain; charset="US-ASCII" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit In a message dated 11/11/02 3:58:06 PM Eastern Standard Time, alpropes@bitstream.net writes: > We've seen aggression in TPs throughout the series. > > Finally, being a TP doesn't make you more than human; they're be subject > to the same mental strains, conditions, and illnesses as Saps. > > True but just because those conditions mentioned still affect Tp, doesn't mean they are exactly human. There was much confusion about this in the show. At times they were no longer considered Earthlings but that could have just been political mumbo jumbo on Timus's part or the Galactic Fed part. Certainly they had differences even in the makeup of their brains or brainwave patterns. Also Stephen mentions how he'd like to show the bullies a thing or two in BLUE AND THE GREEN but can't because they are so peaceful or is he just bragging and being a coward (I don't think so)? John tells Mike they can't be secret agents like James Bond in DIRTIEST BUSINESS because the conflict in their minds would kill them. The Tp (or was it the alien dad?) are responsible for the Fathership destroying itself when they move (but this was just a maneuver not a death move and no one on the ship really seemed to know that the Fathership would destroy itself if they shot at them), all from INTO THE UNKNOWN. John knocks over a Nazi boy in HITLER'S LAST SECRET and Mike and John both vanish away from high flying kicking attackers in THE LOST GODS, making the attackers fall (and go unconscious?). In SECRET WEAPON, Chris says (but what does he know anyway?), "I could kill you, but they can't, you see?" This was just after a long impassioned speech to the Prime Minister about how TP are the best hope for peace the world has. Which echos Carol's great speech to Stephen in ep1 of SLAVES. --part1_136.16f3cb2a.2b018665_boundary Content-Type: text/html; charset="US-ASCII" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit In a message dated 11/11/02 3:58:06 PM Eastern Standard Time, alpropes@bitstream.net writes:


We've seen aggression in TPs throughout the series.

Finally, being a TP doesn't make you more than human; they're be subject
to the same mental strains, conditions, and illnesses as Saps.



True but just because those conditions mentioned still affect Tp, doesn't mean they are exactly human. There was much confusion about this in the show. At times they were no longer considered Earthlings but that could have just been political mumbo jumbo on Timus's part or the Galactic Fed part. Certainly they had differences even in the makeup of their brains or brainwave patterns. Also Stephen mentions how he'd like to show the bullies a thing or two in BLUE AND THE GREEN but can't because they are so peaceful or is he just bragging and being a coward (I don't think so)? John tells Mike they can't be secret agents like James Bond in DIRTIEST BUSINESS because the conflict in their minds would kill them. The Tp (or was it the alien dad?) are responsible for the Fathership destroying itself when they move (but this was just a maneuver not a death move and no one on the ship really seemed to know that the Fathership would destroy itself if they shot at them), all from INTO THE UNKNOWN. John knocks over  a Nazi boy in HITLER'S LAST SECRET and Mike and John both vanish away from high flying kicking attackers in THE LOST GODS, making the attackers fall (and go unconscious?). In SECRET WEAPON, Chris says (but what does he know anyway?), "I could kill you, but they can't, you see?"   This was just after a long impassioned speech to the Prime Minister about how TP are the best hope for peace the world has. Which echos Carol's great speech to Stephen in ep1 of SLAVES.   --part1_136.16f3cb2a.2b018665_boundary-- ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: CMento6653@aol.com Subject: Re: TPDIS: Stephen and Mike (Was TPs and the Ability to Kill) Date: 11 Nov 2002 17:20:29 EST --part1_2b.30d01484.2b01872d_boundary Content-Type: text/plain; charset="US-ASCII" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit In a message dated 11/11/02 4:13:35 PM Eastern Standard Time, rockhopper@ev1.net writes: > > During series four when Mike and Stephen both were part of the cast, I > could understand Mike being jealous of the fact that Stephen and John > had become close friends and perhaps that may have lingered unspoken for > Mike for the duration of the OS, but in "Deadliest Species", Stephen > mumbles to John under his breath "Sorry I'm not Mike." and later goes on > to Elena how Mike moved in and he was moved out. Of course Stephen is > not in his right mind in DS, so that may have brought this out more than > it would have been otherwise. > > Interesting. Since we never will know, canon wise, why Stephen (and Tyso) had to be "moved out" fiction wise, this makes either great sense or little sense, depending on the circumstances. Mike was more jealous of the fact that he had very little to do compared to Stephen but as they were only in two stories together (ONE LAW-Mike's break out story and INTO THE UNKNOWN) this is not even a thought for canon but all speculation. --part1_2b.30d01484.2b01872d_boundary Content-Type: text/html; charset="US-ASCII" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit In a message dated 11/11/02 4:13:35 PM Eastern Standard Time, rockhopper@ev1.net writes:



During series four when Mike and Stephen both were part of the cast, I
could understand Mike being jealous of the fact that Stephen and John
had become close friends and perhaps that may have lingered unspoken for
Mike for the duration of the OS, but in "Deadliest Species", Stephen
mumbles to John under his breath "Sorry I'm not Mike." and later goes on
to Elena how Mike moved in and he was moved out. Of course Stephen is
not in his right mind in DS, so that may have brought this out more than
it would have been otherwise.



Interesting. Since we never will know, canon wise, why Stephen (and Tyso) had to be "moved out" fiction wise, this makes either great sense or little sense, depending on the circumstances. Mike was more jealous of the fact that he had very little to do compared to Stephen but as they were only in two stories together (ONE LAW-Mike's break out story and INTO THE UNKNOWN) this is not even a thought for canon but all speculation. --part1_2b.30d01484.2b01872d_boundary-- ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: CMento6653@aol.com Subject: Re: TPDIS: TPs and the Ability to Kill Date: 11 Nov 2002 17:22:56 EST --part1_124.19d5b9dd.2b0187c0_boundary Content-Type: text/plain; charset="US-ASCII" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit In a message dated 11/11/02 5:01:17 PM Eastern Standard Time, otherchris@erols.com writes: > They can sense someone who's close to breaking out, but that's not quite > the same thing as sensing possible TPs Uh? How so? I figure that if someone is close to breaking out, they can sense them and contact them but not really know totally the mind. In addition what is the difference between a possible TP and a person breaking out (into a TP?).? --part1_124.19d5b9dd.2b0187c0_boundary Content-Type: text/html; charset="US-ASCII" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit In a message dated 11/11/02 5:01:17 PM Eastern Standard Time, otherchris@erols.com writes:


They can sense someone who's close to breaking out, but that's not quite
the same thing as sensing possible TPs
Uh? How so? I figure that if someone is close to breaking out, they can sense them and contact them but not really know totally the mind. In addition what is the difference between a possible TP and a person breaking out (into a TP?).? --part1_124.19d5b9dd.2b0187c0_boundary-- ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: ade Subject: Re: TPDIS: TPs and the Ability to Kill Date: 11 Nov 2002 17:20:32 -0500 Forget planes. What about the poor schnooks walking on stairs, crossing the street, or using sharp knives in the kitchen. The more I think about this episode, the more I want to throttle someone over the improbabilities! alpropes wrote: > > Although they were clearly using stock footage, and not anything they shot > themselves (it was pretty elaborate for something like that - but maybe > I'm wrong), but there was at least one shot with a car off the road and a > person on top of it - not explicitly dead, but one can wonder. > > They're also facing an impending crisis that would have killed everybody > on the planet. Chances are, given the circumstances, their brains would > have blocked out the carnage that would have happened, and what did > anticipate the consequences hope most of the planes were on autopilot, or > traffic control would order them to engage it after the first large > section of the planet went under. > > They also had to take the risk that they would be too late; what section > of the planet would you be willing to sacrifice if the hatching happened > before earth was done being stunned? > > Aaron > > --- > Aaron Lee Propes > The Tomorrow People Audio Reviews - http://www2.bitstream.net/~alpropes/tp > > On Mon, 11 Nov 2002 CMento6653@aol.com wrote: > > > In a message dated 11/11/02 3:12:28 PM Eastern Standard Time, ade@bestweb.net > > writes: > > > > > > > > > > Nope. They used a satellite and the entire world went to bed. > > > > > > > > > > > > > So you think they wouldn't have made allowance for people driving, flying > > planes etc? I think the story would have followed a different course if that > > were the case. I think there were instances of people in their cars, who > > were driving, asleep and not dead at the wheel in some accident. I also > > cannot and willnot accept the fact that the Tp would put everyone to sleep > > and cause death...remember they were trying to stop violent death... > > ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: CMento6653@aol.com Subject: Re: TPDIS: TPs and the Ability to Kill Date: 11 Nov 2002 17:25:39 EST --part1_a3.320efe95.2b018863_boundary Content-Type: text/plain; charset="US-ASCII" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit The whole Jedikiah thing is a mess too. First he was a bionic robot that could shape shift as an ability. Then he just made himself look like a robot and was a shape shifter in the second story. Later he was called an android I think but seemed more human-like. So to call his killing by Peter a murder is sort of in gray areas again. Sigh. Peter did kill Rubowski and lived though. But again, Peter himself is a gray area: is he just a TP? Is a Time Guardian subject to the exact same laws (which are gray enough for pure TPs from the present day Earth) as Tps and non TGs? --part1_a3.320efe95.2b018863_boundary Content-Type: text/html; charset="US-ASCII" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit The whole Jedikiah thing is a mess too. First he was a bionic robot that could shape shift as an ability. Then he just made himself look like a robot and was a shape shifter in the second story. Later he was called an android I think but seemed more human-like. So to call his killing by Peter a murder is sort of in gray areas again. Sigh. Peter did kill Rubowski and lived though. But again, Peter himself is a gray area: is he just a TP? Is a Time Guardian subject to the exact same laws (which are gray enough for pure TPs from the present day Earth) as Tps and non TGs? --part1_a3.320efe95.2b018863_boundary-- ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: CMento6653@aol.com Subject: Re: TPDIS: TPs and the Ability to Kill Date: 11 Nov 2002 17:26:46 EST --part1_179.116e7f48.2b0188a6_boundary Content-Type: text/plain; charset="US-ASCII" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit In a message dated 11/11/02 5:12:29 PM Eastern Standard Time, ade@bestweb.net writes: > > If we take the events of the show on face value, no. How could they? > How could they POSSIBLY find out where every person on the face of the > Earth is one second prior to the second they enacted the plan? > > > > Then I submit that that plan is not sound and wouldn't have worked, thus the entire last episode is bull. --part1_179.116e7f48.2b0188a6_boundary Content-Type: text/html; charset="US-ASCII" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit In a message dated 11/11/02 5:12:29 PM Eastern Standard Time, ade@bestweb.net writes:



If we take the events of the show on face value, no. How could they?
How could they POSSIBLY find out where every person on the face of the
Earth is one second prior to the second they enacted the plan?





Then I submit that that plan is not sound and wouldn't have worked, thus the entire last episode is bull. --part1_179.116e7f48.2b0188a6_boundary-- ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: Doctor TOC Subject: Re: TPDIS: TPs and the Ability to Kill Date: 11 Nov 2002 17:35:03 -0500 CMento6653@aol.com wrote: > >> Nope. They used a satellite and the entire world went to bed. > > So you think they wouldn't have made allowance for people driving, > flying planes etc? I think the story would have followed a different > course if that were the case. I think there were instances of people in > their cars, who were driving, asleep and not dead at the wheel in some > accident. I also cannot and willnot accept the fact that the Tp would > put everyone to sleep and cause death...remember they were trying to > stop violent death... This is a thorny one, really. The TPs used a giant stun gun in space to put the planet to sleep. Given the sheer size of the planet, and the number of humans alive then (5 billion people), I can't see how they could have made sure that everyone who was driving, riding a bike, in surgery, on a construction site, diving, etc, could be safe, especially with only three TPs on Earth at the time. The whole point of using an orbital stun gun was so that it would work quickly, and taking the time to escort people to safety would have cost more lives in the long run. Unless the stun gun literally stopped time, which we saw wasn't true, somebody, somewhere, must have died as a result. The TP's didn't cause death on purpose, and in fact their desperate focus on saving lives may have blinded them to the downside of their actions, but logically they must have caused deaths. Doctor TOC -- The Reverend Doctor "The Other Chris" Secret Elf, Jive Talkin' Choirboy, God of Cowboy Spurs ICQ # 4814586 Daleks! 3D - http://users.rcn.com/otherchris/ Time War RPG - http://jump.to/TimeWar alt.tv.sevendays FAQ - http://welcome.to/7-Days The TOC Files - http://members.fortunecity.com/toc ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: CMento6653@aol.com Subject: Re: TPDIS: TPs and the Ability to Kill Date: 11 Nov 2002 17:31:00 EST --part1_1b9.93ab860.2b0189a4_boundary Content-Type: text/plain; charset="US-ASCII" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit In a message dated 11/11/02 5:15:44 PM Eastern Standard Time, alpropes@bitstream.net writes: > > Although they were clearly using stock footage, and not anything they shot > themselves (it was pretty elaborate for something like that - but maybe > I'm wrong), but there was at least one shot with a car off the road and a > person on top of it - not explicitly dead, but one can wonder. Then this renders the whole ending bull. IF the Tp IMO killed anyone through this plan, then they would have died too. > > They're also facing an impending crisis that would have killed everybody > on the planet. Chances are, given the circumstances, their brains would > have blocked out the carnage Cry foul! This is never stated on the show as a possibility as far as I know. They cannot block out carnage they created. Given the circumstances I imagine that they would have found a way to use the satellite to monitor people that would have died when sleeping and found a way to either wait until those people were out of danger or that they actually didn't put them to sleep at the same exact time. that would have happened, and what did > anticipate the consequences hope most of the planes were on autopilot, or > traffic control would order them to engage it after the first large > section of the planet went under. > > They also had to take the risk that they would be too late; what section > of the planet would you be willing to sacrifice if the hatching happened > before earth was done being stunned? > I don't think each part of the Earth was stunned at the exact same time but I could be wrong. Anyway, I cannot accept the fact that any deaths happened due to this plan. --part1_1b9.93ab860.2b0189a4_boundary Content-Type: text/html; charset="US-ASCII" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit In a message dated 11/11/02 5:15:44 PM Eastern Standard Time, alpropes@bitstream.net writes:



Although they were clearly using stock footage, and not anything they shot
themselves (it was pretty elaborate for something like that - but maybe
I'm wrong), but there was at least one shot with a car off the road and a
person on top of it - not explicitly dead, but one can wonder.
Then this renders the whole ending bull. IF the Tp IMO killed anyone through this plan, then they would have died too.



They're also facing an impending crisis that would have killed everybody
on the planet. Chances are, given the circumstances, their brains would
have blocked out the carnage


Cry foul! This is never stated on the show as a possibility as far as I know. They cannot block out carnage they created. Given the circumstances I imagine that they would have found a way to use the satellite to monitor people that would have died when sleeping and found a way to either wait until those people were out of danger or that they actually didn't put them to sleep at the same exact time.


that would have happened, and what did

anticipate the consequences hope most of the planes were on autopilot, or
traffic control would order them to engage it after the first large
section of the planet went under.

They also had to take the risk that they would be too late; what section
of the planet would you be willing to sacrifice if the hatching happened
before earth was done being stunned?



I don't think each part of the Earth was stunned at the exact same time but I could be wrong. Anyway, I cannot accept the fact that any deaths happened due to this plan.



--part1_1b9.93ab860.2b0189a4_boundary-- ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: ade Subject: Re: TPDIS: TPs and the Ability to Kill Date: 11 Nov 2002 17:28:53 -0500 Have you seen it? >>>>>>Then I submit that that plan is not sound and wouldn't have worked, thus the entire last episode is bull ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: CMento6653@aol.com Subject: Re: TPDIS: TPs and the Ability to Kill Date: 11 Nov 2002 17:32:15 EST --part1_84.1de3520.2b0189ef_boundary Content-Type: text/plain; charset="US-ASCII" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Perhaps they also use some kind of forcefield to cushion all impacts of people falling, cars crashing, etc. --part1_84.1de3520.2b0189ef_boundary Content-Type: text/html; charset="US-ASCII" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Perhaps they also use some kind of forcefield to cushion all impacts of people falling, cars crashing, etc. --part1_84.1de3520.2b0189ef_boundary-- ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: CMento6653@aol.com Subject: Re: TPDIS: TPs and the Ability to Kill Date: 11 Nov 2002 17:33:21 EST --part1_164.16e5156e.2b018a31_boundary Content-Type: text/plain; charset="US-ASCII" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit In a message dated 11/11/02 5:31:00 PM Eastern Standard Time, otherchris@erols.com writes: > The TP's didn't cause > death on purpose, and in fact their desperate focus on saving lives may > have blinded them to the downside of their actions, but logically they > must have caused deaths. > > Then they themselves should be dead after the episode. That's just how I see it. --part1_164.16e5156e.2b018a31_boundary Content-Type: text/html; charset="US-ASCII" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit In a message dated 11/11/02 5:31:00 PM Eastern Standard Time, otherchris@erols.com writes:


The TP's didn't cause
death on purpose, and in fact their desperate focus on saving lives may
have blinded them to the downside of their actions, but logically they
must have caused deaths.



Then they themselves should be dead after the episode. That's just how I see it. --part1_164.16e5156e.2b018a31_boundary-- ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: alpropes Subject: Re: TPDIS: TPs and the Ability to Kill Date: 11 Nov 2002 16:33:55 -0600 (CST) Robowski falls under the "I didn't mean it" clause which TP are supposed to be able to deal with. Aaron --- Aaron Lee Propes InteractiveTheatre.org - Using drama to educate on sexual assault http://www.interactivetheatre.org On Mon, 11 Nov 2002 CMento6653@aol.com wrote: > The whole Jedikiah thing is a mess too. First he was a bionic robot that > could shape shift as an ability. Then he just made himself look like a robot > and was a shape shifter in the second story. Later he was called an android I > think but seemed more human-like. So to call his killing by Peter a murder is > sort of in gray areas again. Sigh. Peter did kill Rubowski and lived though. > But again, Peter himself is a gray area: is he just a TP? Is a Time Guardian > subject to the exact same laws (which are gray enough for pure TPs from the > present day Earth) as Tps and non TGs? > ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: CMento6653@aol.com Subject: Re: TPDIS: TPs and the Ability to Kill Date: 11 Nov 2002 17:33:54 EST --part1_9c.29390547.2b018a52_boundary Content-Type: text/plain; charset="US-ASCII" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit In a message dated 11/11/02 5:31:56 PM Eastern Standard Time, ade@bestweb.net writes: > > Have you seen it? > > > >>>>>>Then I submit that that plan is not sound and wouldn't have worked, > thus the entire last episode is bull > > Uh, yeah, at least five times or more! :) --part1_9c.29390547.2b018a52_boundary Content-Type: text/html; charset="US-ASCII" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit In a message dated 11/11/02 5:31:56 PM Eastern Standard Time, ade@bestweb.net writes:



Have you seen it?


>>>>>>Then I submit that that plan is not sound and wouldn't have worked, thus the entire last episode is bull



Uh, yeah, at least five times or more! :) --part1_9c.29390547.2b018a52_boundary-- ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: Doctor TOC Subject: Re: TPDIS: TPs and the Ability to Kill Date: 11 Nov 2002 17:42:04 -0500 CMento6653@aol.com wrote: > >> They can sense someone who's close to breaking out, but that's not quite >> the same thing as sensing possible TPs > > Uh? How so? I figure that if someone is close to breaking out, they can > sense them and contact them but not really know totally the mind. In > addition what is the difference between a possible TP and a person > breaking out (into a TP?).? Well, we've never seen them sense someone who's going to break out in a couple of years, or even months. Everytime they sense a new TP it's when they're right on the verge of breaking out. So, the logical assumption is that they can only sense a new TP when they're about to break out. Tricia Conway was a potential TP, but her break out had been supressed by her intelligence work. Despite being in Britain, her existence was a complete surprise to the other TPs when they met in "Secret Weapon", so she must have gone undetected for quite some time. Hence, sensing possible TPs is not the same as sensing someone breaking out. The difference is in realised potential, rather like the difference betwen a seedling and a seed. Doctor TOC -- The Reverend Doctor "The Other Chris" Secret Elf, Jive Talkin' Choirboy, God of Cowboy Spurs ICQ # 4814586 Daleks! 3D - http://users.rcn.com/otherchris/ Time War RPG - http://jump.to/TimeWar alt.tv.sevendays FAQ - http://welcome.to/7-Days The TOC Files - http://members.fortunecity.com/toc ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: ade Subject: Re: TPDIS: TPs and the Ability to Kill Date: 11 Nov 2002 17:34:47 -0500 Well then all this shouldn't be such a huge surprise to you. (It sounds from your notes that this is all new ideas here). Sci-Fi is Sci-Fi. It isn't supposed to be realistic. Science FICTION is the important thing to remember. >>>Uh, yeah, at least five times or more! :) ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: ade Subject: Re: TPDIS: TPs and the Ability to Kill Date: 11 Nov 2002 17:37:58 -0500 On the 1st audio CD wasn't there a speech from John about this? Explaining that they are waiting for new TP to break out, though they'd have thought at that point in time there would be more than actually were? Also, in the new TP, the whole beginning of the series was regarding the ship. It was left on Earth to track and guide new TP. It sensed the tp activity of Adam (et al) and that was how it was able to bring them to itself. Doctor TOC wrote: > > Well, we've never seen them sense someone who's going to break out in a > couple of years, or even months. Everytime they sense a new TP it's when ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: alpropes Subject: Re: TPDIS: TPs and the Ability to Kill Date: 11 Nov 2002 16:47:26 -0600 (CST) On Mon, 11 Nov 2002 CMento6653@aol.com wrote: > In a message dated 11/11/02 5:15:44 PM Eastern Standard Time, > alpropes@bitstream.net writes: > > > > Although they were clearly using stock footage, and not anything they shot > > themselves (it was pretty elaborate for something like that - but maybe > > I'm wrong), but there was at least one shot with a car off the road and a > > person on top of it - not explicitly dead, but one can wonder. > Then this renders the whole ending bull. IF the Tp IMO killed anyone through > this plan, then they would have died too. I think it's safe to say that everyone has, at one time or another, rushed into some action, not thinking of the possible consequences or reprocussions. It's very possible that they all got cought up in the only possibility they could think of to save Earth, and missed the details. How is it any different than if a TP drove a car, had an accident, and killed a passenger or other driver? Does the Prime Barrier make them better drivers? Obviously no, accidents happen - sometimes fatal ones. The Prime Barrier cannot protect the TPs from consequences they could not, or did not, forsee. Now the big question is, did Tim, who, being a computer, is a bit more detatched from the situation, purposely stay silent? ;) > > > > They're also facing an impending crisis that would have killed everybody > > on the planet. Chances are, given the circumstances, their brains would > > have blocked out the carnage > > Cry foul! This is never stated on the show as a possibility as far as I know. > They cannot block out carnage they created. Given the circumstances I imagine > that they would have found a way to use the satellite to monitor people that > would have died when sleeping and found a way to either wait until those > people were out of danger or that they actually didn't put them to sleep at > the same exact time. With time and Federation equipment, yes. However, they were working with 1970's equipment (which, considering today's space shuttles use 1960's era computers, gives you an idea of the technology at their disposal) fused with what they could synthesize, AND the time constraints, means maybe, maybe not. At what point does the Prime Barrier prohibit them from sacrificing some of the people, thus ensuring the entire race's extinction? > I don't think each part of the Earth was stunned at the exact same time but I > could be wrong. Anyway, I cannot accept the fact that any deaths happened due > to this plan. No, it was divided into sections. But even given today's communcations ("Holy crap! All communications in Germany has ceased!") it doesn't allow for areas that don't have access to western technology, or one of the nuclear-ready countries panicing, seeing it as an attack (considering how aggitated they were already, given the energy they were being prodded into raising), and letting the missles fly. Aaron --- Aaron Lee Propes The Tomorrow People Audio Reviews - http://www2.bitstream.net/~alpropes/tp ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: CMento6653@aol.com Subject: Re: TPDIS: TPs and the Ability to Kill Date: 11 Nov 2002 17:47:51 EST --part1_178.1191d6c8.2b018d97_boundary Content-Type: text/plain; charset="US-ASCII" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit In a message dated 11/11/02 5:37:58 PM Eastern Standard Time, ade@bestweb.net writes: > Well then all this shouldn't be such a huge surprise to you. (It sounds > from your notes that this is all new ideas here). > > Sci-Fi is Sci-Fi. It isn't supposed to be realistic. Science FICTION is > the important thing to remember. > > >>>Uh, yeah, at least five times or more! :) > > No it's not a surprise, I just never thought the TP killed anyone in THE BLUE AND THE GREEN and as in DOCTOR WHO there is a lot open to interpretation and speculation, none of which is really accurate because there is no right answer, just a jumble of messes on screen! :) --part1_178.1191d6c8.2b018d97_boundary Content-Type: text/html; charset="US-ASCII" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit In a message dated 11/11/02 5:37:58 PM Eastern Standard Time, ade@bestweb.net writes:


Well then all this shouldn't be such a huge surprise to you. (It sounds
from your notes that this is all new ideas here).

Sci-Fi is Sci-Fi. It isn't supposed to be realistic. Science FICTION is
the important thing to remember.

>>>Uh, yeah, at least five times or more! :)



No it's not a surprise, I just never thought the TP killed anyone in THE BLUE AND THE GREEN and as in DOCTOR WHO there is a  lot open to interpretation and speculation, none of which is really accurate because there is no right answer, just a jumble of  messes on screen! :) --part1_178.1191d6c8.2b018d97_boundary-- ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: "Shaun Hately" Subject: Re: TPDIS: TPs and the Ability to Kill Date: 12 Nov 2002 09:50:47 +1100 On 11 Nov 2002 at 11:24, Doctor TOC wrote: > Warning. Spoilers for "The Deadliest Species" below... > > Kathryn Andersen wrote: > > > > Absolutely not. Not canon, that is. I'm sorry, but as soon as they > > made TPs able to kill, the BF audios and I parted ways... that's not > > being true to the series, IMHO. > > Really? That's quite interesting. I assume this has been gone over ad > nauseum before, but I wasn't around to see it, so I'm interested to hear > people's thoughts on this. If this topic has been ruled out of bounds, > please let me know - don't want to ruffle any feathers. > > Death has, by and large, been a part of the OS for its entire run, > though the TPs themselves were always above it. We understood that they > simply couldn't kill. But that statment was later proved (in canon) to > be incorrect. How do you mean? I can think of no canonical example where the idea that they couldn't kill was shown to be incorrect. Unless you are talking about the killing of animals etc - but frankly, I always understood the prohibition on killing to only apply to sentient lifeforms and so did the vast majority of fans I encountered - very few people I've encountered over the years ever felt that animals were ever included in the 'can't kill' statements. There's nothing inherently invalid about thinking it did - the issue was not stated clearly initially - but most people, IME, never assumed animals were included and for that reason, don't see any inconsistency in the entire series. The TP could be responsible for a person's death - Rabowski was the first - but they couldn't kill them directly (I realise you've made the distinction yourself) and I think that is the critical distinction. And I can't think of any case in the series which violates that idea. Unless, I am totally misinterpreting what you are saying, in which case, let me know (-8 > Saying a TP can't kill is wrong, because they obviously can, just (for > the most part) not deliberately. A TP is perfectly capable of > accidentally running someone over or poisoning someone through neglect. > It's not physically impossible for them to kill, so the mechanism that > prevents them doing so must be psychological. In canon, we know that > Tyso was perfectly capable of trapping and killing rabbits and other > small game, and could fish with the best of them. All of a sudden "can't > kill" becomes "won't kill". In the NS, the TP's are quite capable of > knocking off Culex's mosquitoes, so "won't kill" is even more flexible. As I say, in my experience, only a few fans ever assumed the prohibition applied to anything other than sentient life - so I don't see that the Tyso situation has any real relevance - it only applies if there is an assumption that animals were included in the Prime Barrier - and I don't think most people had that assumption. > If the compulsion not to kill is a mental one, an instinct > against violence, then it can be overcome, though with great difficulty. > Tyso was raised killing animals and saw nothing wrong with it. In "The > Deadliest Species", we were told that poor old Stephen had been > brainwashed into being able to kill, overcoming his instinct for > non-violence in the same way that instinctual fears can be overcome > through therapy. The TPs tenet of non-violence was actually upheld in > the story by the fact that, even though he'd been subject to alien > mind-control techniques for months, Stephen was still fighting it on > some level (obviously, otherwise John would never have been able to > reach him). Being programmed to kill was destroying him at a fundamental > level. Though he could kill, it was at the cost of his soul, and there's > no doubt in my mind that the character will be spending many years under > Federation psychiatric care before he's well again. Having a built in > desire not to kill is all very well, but how well can it stand up > against technology that can rewire your brain? None of this is unreasonable - and is the reason why I *might* have been able to accept the Deadliest Species at a later date. It isn't unreasonable IMHO to assume that there *might* be a situation where the Prime Barrier might be overcome through technology, brainwashing etc. *But* Big Finish inherited a canon that covered 6 years and 68 episodes - a fairly substantial background. To attack one of the most fundamental tenets (my opinion) of the Tomorrow People - the Prime Barrier - in only your second product is a *very* bad idea - it gives a lot of fans the impression that you don't care at all about the history and the basic principles of the series, and when you are marketing a product where one of your biggest marketing hooks is likely to be the 'nostalgia' type market, that is a *very* bad idea. The most likely people to buy the Big Finish audios are those with fond memories of the Original Series - so it is, IMHO, a very bad idea to almost immediately change things that dramatically. Some change is a good thing - the Deadliest Species was just too soon. If you want to make dramatic changes to canon, and have them accepted by fans, you have to prove to the fans that you respect the canon first - if they know you remain true to the basic idea, and so they know that when you make a change it's not just for shock value, or because you don't care - they are a lot more likely to accept it. Violation of the Prime Barrier is, IMHO, a major change. > The above shouldn't be read to say that I think it was a good story (it > wasn't), but I don't think it was untrue to the series. The fact that it > was pointed out what a monstrous thing it was for a TP to kill, and what > a terrible thing had been done to Stephen kept it quite firmly in the > realm of the possible for the OS, which was pretty damn scary and had a > few deaths in its time. I'd agree with you that it was untrue if Stephen > had been happily popping off people left and right and there'd been no > mention of the horrible consequences, but that's not how it was. Well, you're entitled to your opinion - and if BF had taken the time to build up their credibility. I might have agreed. I might also agree in two years time if they are still producing audio books and they don't drop any more huge canon changes in - if they prove they are trying to remain true. So far, except for DS, I don't think they have done a bad job - but DS is going to take a long time to go away (-8 > I do agree with Shaun's comment that "The Deadliest Species" might have > been easier to accept had it come later in the series, but I also think > that the frankly terrible voice acting from PVC had a lot to do with how > odd the story felt. Had he been able to put more depth and emotion into > his voice, letting us know something of the torment that was going on > inside the character, I think it would have fit far better. As it was I > think it was a serious mis-step, but not one that should cause the > audios to be disregarded - they're too much fun for that. Oh, I still enjoy them - I just cannot at this point consider them canonical - anymore than I can accept the novels as canonical, or the TP comics. I might add that even if this hadn't happened, I'd just about have had to ignore the audio books as canon for my fanfic purposes - I've already got my own history in place and they won't fit (-8 > Still, different strokes for different folks. I won't try and stuff my > views down anyone's neck, and I hope no-one thinks that's what I'm > trying to do. If we all thought the same, we wouldn't need discussion > groups :-) Definitely - disagreement is a good thing - the list is a lot more active when there's a bit of it around. Yours Without Wax, Dreadnought Shaun Hately |webpage: http://www.alphalink.com.au/~drednort/thelab.html (ISTJ) |email: drednort@alphalink.com.au | ICQ: 6898200 "You know the very powerful and the very stupid have one thing in common. They don't alter their views to fit the facts. They alter the facts to fit the views. Which can be uncomfortable if you happen to be one of the facts that need altering." The Doctor - Doctor Who: The Face of Evil | Where am I: Frankston, Victoria, Australia ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: CMento6653@aol.com Subject: Re: TPDIS: TPs and the Ability to Kill Date: 11 Nov 2002 17:52:46 EST --part1_120.1948590b.2b018ebe_boundary Content-Type: text/plain; charset="US-ASCII" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit In a message dated 11/11/02 5:47:55 PM Eastern Standard Time, alpropes@bitstream.net writes: > I think it's safe to say that everyone has, at one time or another, rushed > into some action, not thinking of the possible consequences or > reprocussions. It's very possible that they all got cought up in the only > possibility they could think of to save Earth, and missed the details. > > How is it any different than if a TP drove a car, had an accident, and > killed a passenger or other driver? Does the Prime Barrier make them > better drivers? Obviously no, accidents happen - sometimes fatal ones. The > Prime Barrier cannot protect the TPs from consequences they could not, or > did not, forsee. > > Now the big question is, did Tim, who, being a computer, is a bit more > detatched from the situation, purposely stay silent? ;) > > Nice arguement but I don't buy it. If they didn't think about what they would be doing to people when they put them all to sleep, then that is murder. IMO. The Opps clause doesn't come into play because they had to know. And as for it being an "accident" or a series of accidents, that doesn't work either in my opinion---these were deliberate stoppages during times they knew people would be killed. I'd rather think they used some kind of forcefields even in a limited way to cushion the impacts somehow. It certainly makes more sense than having the Tp commit what amounts to mass murder. --part1_120.1948590b.2b018ebe_boundary Content-Type: text/html; charset="US-ASCII" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit In a message dated 11/11/02 5:47:55 PM Eastern Standard Time, alpropes@bitstream.net writes:


I think it's safe to say that everyone has, at one time or another, rushed
into some action, not thinking of the possible consequences or
reprocussions. It's very possible that they all got cought up in the only
possibility they could think of to save Earth, and missed the details.

How is it any different than if a TP drove a car, had an accident, and
killed a passenger or other driver? Does the Prime Barrier make them
better drivers? Obviously no, accidents happen - sometimes fatal ones. The
Prime Barrier cannot protect the TPs from consequences they could not, or
did not, forsee.

Now the big question is, did Tim, who, being a computer, is a bit more
detatched from the situation, purposely stay silent? ;)



Nice arguement but I don't buy it. If they didn't think about what they would be doing to people when they put them all to sleep, then that is murder. IMO. The Opps clause doesn't come into play because they had to know. And as for it being an "accident" or a series of accidents, that doesn't work either in my opinion---these were deliberate stoppages during times they knew people would be killed. I'd rather think they used some kind of forcefields even in a limited way to cushion the impacts somehow. It certainly makes more sense than having the Tp commit what amounts to mass murder. --part1_120.1948590b.2b018ebe_boundary-- ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: ade Subject: Re: TPDIS: TPs and the Ability to Kill Date: 11 Nov 2002 17:51:15 -0500 We don't KNOW anyone died. The assumption was this was the safest way to keep people from dying. They had a very short time before the Najili (sp?) spawned. This was meant to save everyone. One thing to note. The effect wasn't just the sentient creatures going to sleep. It was shown to us where everything got very still and quiet. Almost as if all moving objects also somehow ceased to work. That works as a safety net for many appliances and such, but we still have to wonder about the planes. I think we can chalk this up to RDP and company trying to get out of the end of a serial as quickly and painlessly as possible. >>>>>>>>No it's not a surprise, I just never thought the TP killed anyone in THE BLUE AND THE GREEN and as in DOCTOR WHO there is a lot open to interpretation and speculation, none of which is really accurate because there is no right answer, just a jumble of messes on screen! :) ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: ade Subject: Re: TPDIS: TPs and the Ability to Kill Date: 11 Nov 2002 17:56:12 -0500 Too soon? Maybe unless we take into account the passage of time and EVOLUTION. Who's to say that the Prime Barrier in Earth TPs doesn't lessen or disappear completely by the birth of the 21st century? We know from episodes like "A Rift In Time" that in some versions of the TP future things are very different. Who's to say that there hasn't been some time changing hocus-pocus going on, that we as the TP fandom don't know yet? If Big Finish were to see a transcript of this discussion, and decide to fix it, I'd love to see what kind of a story could be concocted to wheedle out of this. Shaun Hately wrote: > *But* Big Finish inherited a canon that covered 6 years and 68 episodes - a fairly > substantial background. To attack one of the most fundamental tenets (my opinion) > of the Tomorrow People - the Prime Barrier - in only your second product is a *very* > bad idea - it gives a lot of fans the impression that you don't care at all about the > history and the basic principles of the series, and when you are marketing a product > where one of your biggest marketing hooks is likely to be the 'nostalgia' type market, > that is a *very* bad idea. The most likely people to buy the Big Finish audios are > those with fond memories of the Original Series - so it is, IMHO, a very bad idea to > almost immediately change things that dramatically. Some change is a good thing ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: alpropes Subject: Re: TPDIS: TPs and the Ability to Kill Date: 11 Nov 2002 17:00:47 -0600 (CST) On Mon, 11 Nov 2002 CMento6653@aol.com wrote: > Nice arguement but I don't buy it. If they didn't think about what they would > be doing to people when they put them all to sleep, then that is murder. IMO. > The Opps clause doesn't come into play because they had to know. And as for > it being an "accident" or a series of accidents, that doesn't work either in > my opinion---these were deliberate stoppages during times they knew people > would be killed. I'd rather think they used some kind of forcefields even in > a limited way to cushion the impacts somehow. It certainly makes more sense > than having the Tp commit what amounts to mass murder. If we went with your argument, than the *real* opps is them not using their own force fields to reinforce the Lab prior to The Dirtiest Business when the SIS raided them. I guess I need to know how they "had" to know. Given the circumstances, I could see them totally forgetting, and focusing on the big picture. I also don't see how you could call it murder. Let's say they didn't think of the big stun guns - would that mean they committed genocide, for failing to save the human race? Aaron --- Aaron Lee Propes The Tomorrow People Audio Reviews - http://www2.bitstream.net/~alpropes/tp ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: Beth E. Subject: Re: TPDIS: TPs and the Ability to Kill Date: 11 Nov 2002 17:00:21 -0600 Combining a bunch of responses here (hint, hint!): On Monday, November 11, 2002, at 02:57 PM, alpropes wrote: > * In The Medusa Strain, Peter is intentionally attempting to destroy > Jedikiah. If you are to give sentience to him (robot or not - he > certainly > had vengance on the CPU); then his destruction is tantamount to killing. Except that we know he wasn't destroyed on Mercury-- maybe Peter knew this was the case and intended to merely maroon him. I suspect that's one tough robot-- he did survive the explosion of the Cyclop's spaceship in Slaves of Jedikiah remember. Of course, it doesn't help that the show can't decide if he's a shape changing being or a shape changing robot. :) > > * In Hearts of Sogguth, John resisted stabbing Elizabeth; he missed, but > the arm followed through, and if Elizabeth didn't move, she would be > dead > or gravely wounded. Yes but you're forgetting two important facts: 1) he hesitated and 2) it was this act that allowed John to break Sogguth's control of him. Also, I always saw it as John making himself miss, but that's a little more subjective. You're telling me that the Sorsons are better at mind control than Sogguth (who was strongly implied to be the devil)? Mike M. said: > Given her appearance and the > particulars of the sect, it sounds like Hsui Tai was > likely from Tibet. The Lost Gods novelization indicates that the temple was located in the Himalayas for whatever that's worth. Doctor TOC (or The other Chris-- what should we call you?) wrote: > This raises an interesting point. Does the no-killing rule apply purely > to organic life-forms, or could it be applied to other things? Can TP's > play first-person shooter games, or do they lock up at the mere thought > of harming another, even if that person isn't real? Welcome to the list, you've officially experienced list telepathy. :) I have a nearly ready to post fanfic along those line (except it's an Original series fic, so we're talking more along the lines of early '80's video games). I think it would, to some extent, depend on the Tomorrow Person and the graphic nature (or lack thereof) of the game. Tyso probably wouldn't have objected to them, but I don't think they'd exactly be Adam's cup of tea. Hard to say about Megabyte-- it's fairly clear that he and Kevin are playing some sort of adventure game in The Origin Story, but who knows what else he's got lying around? Of course, if you theorize that the Prime Barrier is at least somewhat tied to telepathy and telepathic backlash, then they could in theory play those types of video games as there's not sentient being to provide said backlash. Whether or not they would, however, would be more dependent on personality types. Tigger ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: "Simon Fraser" Subject: Re: TPDIS: Chat Date: 11 Nov 2002 23:45:35 -0000 Okay :) My suggestion would be sorcerynet irc.sorcery.net Is what you need to get on.. nicknames and channels are registered in the same way as DALnet.. there is very little network trouble, and it's a generally quiet network.. IMO perfect for a TP community chat channel :) I'm biased because I belong to a couple of channels there already, and as a whole we prefer it to DALnet and have done since we moved a couple of years ago. I'm not saying it's the only choice, but I would recommend it :) Talk to you all later, hopefully! TinyTim / Simon Fraser ----- Original Message ----- Sent: Monday, November 11, 2002 9:29 PM please make some suggestions of more appropriate servers. I haven't had a very good response to my call for ten volunteers anyway. -Jackie ----- Original Message ----- Sent: Sunday, November 10, 2002 6:10 PM > Okay :) > > Seeing as this is an issue very close to my own heart, I'm going to put my > tuppence worth in :) > > First of all, Jackie is doing a fantastic job of running the IRC channel, > and all the people who come in a chat really enjoy their stay. (I know I > certainly do) > However, I honestly think Undernet is not a particularly ideal choice for a > new channel, and I think other, smaller servers are probably better suited > to the needs of the TP community ;) (Wow, lotsa big words..) > > Does anybody else agree with this, becuase If I'm speaking out of line, just > tell me to sit down in a corner and be quiet ;) > > Take care ppls > > TinyTim / Simon Fraser > > > ----- Original Message ----- > From: Jackie Clark > To: > Sent: Sunday, November 10, 2002 5:28 PM > Subject: Re: TPDIS: Chat > > > Hello All > Tigger wrote: > I know very little about IRC (I go to our chats and that's about it). > > Presuming that you can get to Undernet with the same kinds of clients as > > dalnet (and therefore not have to pay for all new software) it seems > > like a good idea to me. > > I've made some investigations regarding re-registering our chat channel on > Undernet. You can get to it simply by choosing any Undernet server. Many > come pre-loaded into your irc program so there is no need for new software > etc. I like to use the London server which seems to give uk users a very > quick response time... > > The problem with Undernet is that they do not allow channels to register > just like that! They need at least ten people who agree to be regular ops. > These people have to register, on a particular web site, their interest in > supporting the channel. > > They also like a channel to be up and running for some time (about two weeks > minimum) with regular visitors, for them to consider it worth registering. > > What I need are ten volunteers who can guarantee to support the channel, > these people would need to visit the channel over a few designated weeks (we > can arrange this later) at a specific time, so that we build up enough > activity within the channel to make it viable. > > At the moment anyone can go onto irc Undernet and type /join #TomorrowPeople > > I'd appreciate it if a number of people from the list could do this. You > will not find a regular welcome message and may find the channel empty. What > you are doing is recreating a new channel under that name each time, and > Undernet will probably give you ops status for the time that you are in the > channel. When you leave the channel will disappear, until someone else comes > along... if we can all do this then we'll be able to establish a place for > us to meet and talk in real time. > > I am grateful to the various people who have founded and maintained TP chat > over the years. I believe that it is a useful additional facility to all > list members and there fore worth continuing. > > It's been a while since I organised a live chat with a cast member... would > anyone be interested in James/Daniel Wilson coming to talk about the new > CD's and the direction he feels they are going in? > > Thanks for the support > > Jackie > > > ----- Original Message ----- > From: Beth E. > To: > Sent: Sunday, November 10, 2002 3:03 PM > Subject: Re: TPDIS: Chat > > > > > > On Sunday, November 10, 2002, at 02:51 AM, Jackie Clark wrote: > > > > > I've noticed that Dalnet has had some major problems lately when whole > > > areas > > > of the world cannot log on. If I cannot get into Dalnet in another few > > > weeks > > > the TP chat channel will disappear as a registered channel. > > > > That's why I've been having so much trouble? I was begining to wonder > > if my ISP had been blocked or something. > > > > > > > > I've been considering moving the channel onto Undernet and wondered how > > > people felt about this? The Undernet servers are seldom full and > > > connection > > > is much easier. > > > > > > > > What's the point of having Chat if no one can get there to talk? > > Tigger > > > > > > > > ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: "Shaun Hately" Subject: Re: TPDIS: TPs and the Ability to Kill Date: 12 Nov 2002 11:19:15 +1100 Attempting to neatly combine comments on myriad posts: On 11 Nov 2002 at 12:56, CMento6653@AOL.COM wrote: > Well I was ready to diagree with your statement but your statement reminded > me of something: Pavla killed herself, even though it could be argued that > she really wasn't a TP. I believe Pavla was a TP (she's stated as being one in the Dirtiest Business) but I do not believe we can view her as having killed herself. Pavla's motivation in jumping from the window was not to kill herself - it was simply to get herself as far away from others as possible. Yes, she knew doing so would lead to her death - but her death at that point was fundamentally inevitable anyway. There is a difference between killing yourself and accepting death as a price for saving others. On 11 Nov 2002 at 12:57, ade wrote: > If Patricia particpated in actions that lead to deaths, would that be > the same thing? We only knew her before she officially broke out but she > was still a telepath in every sense of the word. My opinion - no. With regards to the Prime Barrier, there is a distinction between being responsible for a person's death, and deliberately killing them. This distinction is seen from Rabowski onwards. They were responsible for Rabowski's death in the sense that their actions made it happen - and it did upset them - but it was not a prime barrier issue. It seems to come down to the degree of involvement - exactly where the line is - I'm not entirely sure. On 11 Nov 2002 at 12:32, John A. Merullo wrote: > It always seemed to me one of the inconsistencies of the series was that > there was no barrier against killing non-sentient beings (i.e., > animals). You can rationalise that the TP are not vegetarians because > TIM can replicate organic matter and when they eat meat, no animal was > harmed, but then there was Tyso. One would imagine that Hsui Tai was a > vegetarian because she was probably raised as one, growing up in an > Eastern monastery, but that is purely speculation. I only know what I've > read on the fan sites about the NS, but wasn't there an episode when > Adam had an issue with killing a shark? I just can't see this as an inconsistency - I don't think there is any inconsistency with being able to kill a non-sentient creature, but not being able to kill a sentient one. The Prime Barrier simply *exists* - there's no reason to assume it fits any particular rule. There is a question however as to what sentience is, and how the TP would know if a particular creature was sentient or not. I'm of the opinion that the Prime Barrier only applies if the Tomorrow Person in question *believes* the creature they are dealing with is sentient. With humans (and many intelligent aliens) the sentience is obvious - with other creatures it isn't. Now, I don't believe a shark is a sentient creature - but that doesn't mean Adam doesn't. The belief may be erroneous - but if it exists, it may prevent a person being able to kill an animal, another easily could. On 11 Nov 2002 at 14:57, alpropes wrote: > Cool! I'm not alone anymore! :) To summarize my arguments about the > ability for TPs to kill, I've pulled from the following episodes: > > * In The Medusa Strain, Peter is intentionally attempting to destroy > Jedikiah. If you are to give sentience to him (robot or not - he certainly > had vengance on the CPU); then his destruction is tantamount to killing. Same issue here - I would not regard a robot as sentient, no matter how intelligent it acted - I can certainly see Peter having the same attitude. If you don't believe it's sentient, you can destroy it. > * In Hearts of Sogguth, John resisted stabbing Elizabeth; he missed, but > the arm followed through, and if Elizabeth didn't move, she would be dead > or gravely wounded. > > We've seen aggression in TPs throughout the series. Aggression is *very* different from an ability to kill - the Prime Barrier only prevents TP from killing - we have no reason to suppose it makes them any less violent in any other way. The TP seem reasonably opposed to violence - but I think that is mostly a choice in the same way we all have that choice. Not a prime barrier issue. John spanks Emily - a violent act, albeit a minor one. He uses force on one of the neo-Nazis in Hitler's Last Secret - the TP can do violence - they avoid it, but being unable to kill is not the same as being non-violent. > Finally, being a TP doesn't make you more than human; they're be subject > to the same mental strains, conditions, and illnesses as Saps. Actually, I think being a TP does make you more than human - Homo superior - it's a real thing in the TP universe. I would certainly suspect they can get most or all of the diseases Homo sapiens can - but the difference is real. That'll have to do for now - it's great to see the list so active I haven't got time to reply to everything at once. (-8 Yours Without Wax, Dreadnought Shaun Hately |webpage: http://www.alphalink.com.au/~drednort/thelab.html (ISTJ) |email: drednort@alphalink.com.au | ICQ: 6898200 "You know the very powerful and the very stupid have one thing in common. They don't alter their views to fit the facts. They alter the facts to fit the views. Which can be uncomfortable if you happen to be one of the facts that need altering." The Doctor - Doctor Who: The Face of Evil | Where am I: Frankston, Victoria, Australia ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: "Shaun Hately" Subject: Re: TPDIS: TPs and the Ability to Kill Date: 12 Nov 2002 11:25:40 +1100 On 11 Nov 2002 at 17:56, ade wrote: > Too soon? Maybe unless we take into account the passage of time and > EVOLUTION. Who's to say that the Prime Barrier in Earth TPs doesn't > lessen or disappear completely by the birth of the 21st century? That's not what I was talking about - from a 'time in the universe' it may not have been too soon - from the perspective of 'We are just starting to produce material for this franchise which we hope to sell to fans of the original series', I think it was (-8 > We know from episodes like "A Rift In Time" that in some versions of the > TP future things are very different. Who's to say that there hasn't been > some time changing hocus-pocus going on, that we as the TP fandom don't > know yet? That's certainly possible - as I said, if Big Finish builds up their credibility over time, I might be able to forgive them for the sacrilege of 'Deadliest Species'. It's possible as part of that process, they will explain this in some way. If they do, more power to them - but until they do, I cannot view the audios as canonical. At least some people here are familiar with 'Buffy' - at the start of Season Five, they introduced a *major* canonical change. Suddenly, out of nowhere, Buffy had a teenage sister. They left us hanging on what had happened - they gave us no explanation at first. And that was fine - eventually it was explained in a way consistent with the universe. Maybe BF will do something similar - if they do, if they can, provided it isn't too contrived, that's great (-8 > If Big Finish were to see a transcript of this discussion, and decide to > fix it, I'd love to see what kind of a story could be concocted to > wheedle out of this. IMHO, that'd be cool - provided it didn't seem too deus ex. Yours Without Wax, Dreadnought Shaun Hately |webpage: http://www.alphalink.com.au/~drednort/thelab.html (ISTJ) |email: drednort@alphalink.com.au | ICQ: 6898200 "You know the very powerful and the very stupid have one thing in common. They don't alter their views to fit the facts. They alter the facts to fit the views. Which can be uncomfortable if you happen to be one of the facts that need altering." The Doctor - Doctor Who: The Face of Evil | Where am I: Frankston, Victoria, Australia ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: ade Subject: Re: TPDIS: TPs and the Ability to Kill Date: 11 Nov 2002 19:29:15 -0500 Yes I know what you meant, but I was trying to play devil's advocate and explain why it might be OK for them to have just gone ahead and done it. Shaun Hately wrote: > That's not what I was talking about - from a 'time in the universe' it may not have > been too soon - from the perspective of 'We are just starting to produce material for > this franchise which we hope to sell to fans of the original series', I think it was (-8 > That's certainly possible - as I said, if Big Finish builds up their credibility over time, > I might be able to forgive them for the sacrilege of 'Deadliest Species'. It's possible > as part of that process, they will explain this in some way. If they do, more power to > them - but until they do, I cannot view the audios as canonical. -- Oh no. They're complete crap. ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: "John A. Merullo" Subject: Re: TPDIS: TPs and the Ability to Kill Date: 11 Nov 2002 18:34:21 -0600 Shaun Hately wrote: > >>If Big Finish were to see a transcript of this discussion, and decide to >>fix it, I'd love to see what kind of a story could be concocted to >>wheedle out of this. >> > >IMHO, that'd be cool - provided it didn't seem too deus ex. > I'm assuming knowledge of one of the funniest moments ever on American TV, but I can see it now: Stephen wakes up next to Suzanne Pleshette (or maybe Sandra Dickinson ;-) ) and says "Emily, I had the strangest dream!" ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: Latimer84@aol.com Subject: Re: TPDIS: TPs and the Ability to Kill Date: 11 Nov 2002 19:34:51 -0500 In a message dated 11/11/2002 5:52:46 PM Eastern Standard Time, CMento6653 writes: > Nice arguement but I don't buy it. If they didn't think >about what they would be doing to people when they put them >all to sleep, then that is murder. IMO. The Opps clause >doesn't come into play because they had to know. And as for >it being an "accident" or a series of accidents, that doesn't >work either in my opinion---these were deliberate stoppages >during times they knew people would be killed. I'd rather >think they used some kind of forcefields even in a limited >way to cushion the impacts somehow. It certainly makes more >sense than > having the Tp commit what amounts to mass murder. What if the TP used telepathy to make people stop working? I realize that it would be extremely difficult to influence so many people at once, but it makes more sense than killing a bunch of innocent people. Or maybe they pulsed the stun gun shots, so that first people got extremely tired (and so pulled off the road, etc) and then another to put them out? Sure, this is far-fetched, but so is having the TP kill. And a giant stun gun in space ^_^; - Geoff ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: Latimer84@aol.com Subject: Re: TPDIS: TPs and the Ability to Kill Date: 11 Nov 2002 19:41:36 -0500 In a message dated 11/11/2002 6:00:21 PM Eastern Standard Time, tptigger42@earthlink.net writes: > Welcome to the list, you've officially experienced list telepathy. :) I > have a nearly ready to post fanfic along those line (except it's an > Original series fic, so we're talking more along the lines of early > '80's video games). I think it would, to some extent, depend on the > Tomorrow Person and the graphic nature (or lack thereof) of the game. > Tyso probably wouldn't have objected to them, but I don't think they'd > exactly be Adam's cup of tea. Hard to say about Megabyte-- it's fairly > clear that he and Kevin are playing some sort of adventure game in The > Origin Story, but who knows what else he's got lying around? > Tigger If memory serves, Kevin was playing "Sonic the Hedgehog" in The Culex Experiment, in which "killing" robots only turns them back into their original forms of fuzzy bunnies and other cute animals. And Dr. Robotnik (sp?) certainly doesn't die, because he's in many a sequel... I think TPs playing violent games would vary just like saps playing them. Some people were disgusted by Mortal Kombat, but I thought it was fun (if a little gross sometimes - the sequels more than the original). Likewise, I don't think any TP with a knowledge of computer graphics and who was mildly desensitized would be bothered, but Granny TP might have a problem with them. - Geoff ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: Doctor TOC Subject: Re: TPDIS: TPs and the Ability to Kill Date: 11 Nov 2002 20:44:02 -0500 Shaun Hately wrote: > >> We understood that they simply couldn't kill. But that statment was >> later proved (in canon) to be incorrect. > > How do you mean? I can think of no canonical example where the idea > that they couldn't kill was shown to be incorrect. Unless you are > talking about the killing of animals etc Yup, that's what I'm talking about. ISTR it was shown that they wouldn't even kill Medusas - though I could be suffering from faulty memory syndrome. And of course, if the Prime Barrier didn't apply to animals, why did every raise a fuss about it when Tyso demonstrated that he could kill animals? His situation was clearly treated as something special and unusual, which wouldn't be the case unless animals *were* normally covered by the Prime Barrier. Flipping over to the NS, Adam can't kill a shark, even though it's a clear danger at the time. I'm snipping the rest of your post, Shaun, as I pretty much agree with what you've said. Doctor TOC -- The Reverend Doctor "The Other Chris" Secret Elf, Jive Talkin' Choirboy, God of Cowboy Spurs ICQ # 4814586 Daleks! 3D - http://users.rcn.com/otherchris/ Time War RPG - http://jump.to/TimeWar alt.tv.sevendays FAQ - http://welcome.to/7-Days The TOC Files - http://members.fortunecity.com/toc ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: Doctor TOC Subject: Re: TPDIS: TPs and the Ability to Kill Date: 11 Nov 2002 20:44:54 -0500 CMento6653@aol.com wrote: > > Then they themselves should be dead after the episode. That's just how I > see it. It's never been stated that killing someone would kill the TP. John stated that they couldn't be secret agents like James Bond because the conflict would kill them, but Bond kills people at the drop of a hat, frequently with extreme prejudice. Also, unless John has seen a TP die from that sort of conflict, he doesn't know for sure. I don't think that accidentally killing people while trying to save an entire planet is the same thing at all. Doctor TOC -- The Reverend Doctor "The Other Chris" Secret Elf, Jive Talkin' Choirboy, God of Cowboy Spurs ICQ # 4814586 Daleks! 3D - http://users.rcn.com/otherchris/ Time War RPG - http://jump.to/TimeWar alt.tv.sevendays FAQ - http://welcome.to/7-Days The TOC Files - http://members.fortunecity.com/toc ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: Doctor TOC Subject: Re: TPDIS: TPs and the Ability to Kill Date: 11 Nov 2002 20:56:38 -0500 Beth E. wrote: > > Doctor TOC (or The other Chris-- what should we call you?) wrote: Oh, I haven't introduced myself, have I? Didn't fancy the thought of posting a "Who am I?" message; felt a bit egotistical, but if it's the accepted way I shall do so soon. In the mean time, feel free to call me Chris, or TOC, whichever you prefer. >> This raises an interesting point. Does the no-killing rule apply >> purely to organic life-forms, or could it be applied to other things? >> Can TP's play first-person shooter games, or do they lock up at the >> mere thought of harming another, even if that person isn't real? > > Welcome to the list, you've officially experienced list telepathy. :) I > have a nearly ready to post fanfic along those line Sound! Great minds and all that jazz. Guess I'd better join the fiction list as well. > Of course, if you theorize that the Prime Barrier is at least somewhat > tied to telepathy and telepathic backlash, then they could in theory > play those types of video games as there's not sentient being to > provide said backlash. Whether or not they would, however, would be > more dependent on personality types. Makes sense to me. Nice thoughts. Doctor TOC -- The Reverend Doctor "The Other Chris" Secret Elf, Jive Talkin' Choirboy, God of Cowboy Spurs ICQ # 4814586 Daleks! 3D - http://users.rcn.com/otherchris/ Time War RPG - http://jump.to/TimeWar alt.tv.sevendays FAQ - http://welcome.to/7-Days The TOC Files - http://members.fortunecity.com/toc ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: Wendy Perkins Subject: Re: TPDIS: TPs and the Ability to Kill Date: 11 Nov 2002 19:27:46 -0600 > >Then this renders the whole ending bull. IF the Tp IMO killed anyone > through this plan, then they would have died too. How do you figure? Although it appears a lot in fanfic, the notion that a TP who kills will then die isn't canonical IIRC. We know they can't, but we don't know what the consequence is if they do anyway. ... Wendy ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: Wendy Perkins Subject: TPDIS: Mime-Version: 1.0 Date: 11 Nov 2002 20:02:41 -0600 X-Priority: 3 (Normal) In-Reply-To: <235D1A0E.4ABC15E0.025A9286@aol.com> Message-Id: <52NINHNJNLSPOLIH3Z85VQA71T64NMPJ.3dd05046@ARIANAVC> 11/11/2002 7:41:36 PM, Latimer84@aol.com wrote: >I think TPs playing violent games would vary just like saps playing them. > Some people were disgusted by Mortal Kombat, but I thought it was fun (if a > little gross sometimes - the sequels more than the original). Likewise, I don't > think any TP with a knowledge of computer graphics and who was mildly > desensitized would be bothered, but Granny TP might have a problem with > them. Personally, I can't see any TP who doesn't have a problem eating meat having a problem playing video games! The meat death actually exists in reality while the video game one does not. -- (~.~) Ariana "I really do not know that anything has ever been more exciting than diagramming sentences." - Gertrude Stein saylormars@mail.com ICQ 661939 ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: Ariana Brill Subject: Re: TPDIS: TPs and the Ability to Kill Date: 11 Nov 2002 19:50:14 -0500 11/11/2002 7:41:36 PM, Latimer84@aol.com wrote: >I think TPs playing violent games would vary just like saps playing them. > Some people were disgusted by Mortal Kombat, but I thought it was fun (if a > little gross sometimes - the sequels more than the original). Likewise, I don't > think any TP with a knowledge of computer graphics and who was mildly > desensitized would be bothered, but Granny TP might have a problem with > them. Personally, I can't see any TP who doesn't have a problem eating meat having a problem playing video games! The meat death actually exists in reality while the video game one does not. -- (~.~) Ariana "I really do not know that anything has ever been more exciting than diagramming sentences." - Gertrude Stein saylormars@mail.com ICQ 661939 ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: Doctor TOC Subject: Re: TPDIS: TPs and the Ability to Kill Date: 11 Nov 2002 21:07:54 -0500 CMento6653@aol.com wrote: > > Then I submit that that plan is not sound and wouldn't have worked, thus > the entire last episode is bull. The point of these sort of discussions is to work with what we're given by the powers that be. I respect your choice, but for me at least, picking and choosing which bits of the series I allow in my personal canon really isn't an option. I'm an "all or nothing" sort of chap :-) Doctor TOC -- The Reverend Doctor "The Other Chris" Secret Elf, Jive Talkin' Choirboy, God of Cowboy Spurs ICQ # 4814586 Daleks! 3D - http://users.rcn.com/otherchris/ Time War RPG - http://jump.to/TimeWar alt.tv.sevendays FAQ - http://welcome.to/7-Days The TOC Files - http://members.fortunecity.com/toc ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: "John A. Merullo" Subject: Re: TPDIS: TPs and the Ability to Kill Date: 11 Nov 2002 22:01:02 -0600 Wendy Perkins wrote: > >> >Then this renders the whole ending bull. IF the Tp IMO killed anyone >> through this plan, then they would have died too. > > > How do you figure? > > Although it appears a lot in fanfic, the notion that a TP who kills > will then die isn't canonical IIRC. We > know they can't, but we don't know what the consequence is if they do > anyway. The confusion may stem from one episode (it's too long ago for me to remember which one), when, explaining the Prime Barrier, John states that the TP would die themselves before killing. What he meant (I believe) was that given a choice between killing and being killed, a TP will be killed. BTW, as a lifelong pacifist, one of the things that appealed to me about the TP when I was a teenager was their nonviolent nature. FWIW, John ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: CMento6653@aol.com Subject: Re: TPDIS: TPs and the Ability to Kill Date: 11 Nov 2002 23:26:33 EST --part1_170.16f2624f.2b01dcf9_boundary Content-Type: text/plain; charset="US-ASCII" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit In a message dated 11/11/02 6:01:16 PM Eastern Standard Time, alpropes@bitstream.net writes: > > If we went with your argument, than the *real* opps is them not using > their own force fields to reinforce the Lab prior to The Dirtiest Business > when the SIS raided them. > > Perhaps they used all the forcefield energy in BLUE AND THE GREEN? !! :) --part1_170.16f2624f.2b01dcf9_boundary Content-Type: text/html; charset="US-ASCII" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit In a message dated 11/11/02 6:01:16 PM Eastern Standard Time, alpropes@bitstream.net writes:



If we went with your argument, than the *real* opps is them not using
their own force fields to reinforce the Lab prior to The Dirtiest Business
when the SIS raided them.



Perhaps they used all the forcefield energy in BLUE AND THE GREEN? !! :) --part1_170.16f2624f.2b01dcf9_boundary-- ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: CMento6653@aol.com Subject: Re: TPDIS: TPs and the Ability to Kill Date: 11 Nov 2002 23:26:58 EST --part1_19f.b8f9c0a.2b01dd12_boundary Content-Type: text/plain; charset="US-ASCII" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit In a message dated 11/11/02 6:01:16 PM Eastern Standard Time, alpropes@bitstream.net writes: > I guess I need to know how they "had" to know. Given the circumstances, I > could see them totally forgetting, and focusing on the big picture. I also > don't Then they are incredibly stupid --part1_19f.b8f9c0a.2b01dd12_boundary Content-Type: text/html; charset="US-ASCII" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit In a message dated 11/11/02 6:01:16 PM Eastern Standard Time, alpropes@bitstream.net writes:


I guess I need to know how they "had" to know. Given the circumstances, I
could see them totally forgetting, and focusing on the big picture. I also
don't


Then they are incredibly stupid --part1_19f.b8f9c0a.2b01dd12_boundary-- ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: CMento6653@aol.com Subject: Re: TPDIS: TPs and the Ability to Kill Date: 11 Nov 2002 23:27:52 EST --part1_ce.2fced653.2b01dd48_boundary Content-Type: text/plain; charset="US-ASCII" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit In a message dated 11/11/02 6:01:16 PM Eastern Standard Time, alpropes@bitstream.net writes: > . I also > don't see how you could call it murder. Let's say they didn't think Well if you decided to put all the doctors in the world to sleep or anyone with any medical expierence, and patients died, isn't that murder? Same thing. Or if you decided to take all electric power away from every hospital in the world. Same thing. --part1_ce.2fced653.2b01dd48_boundary Content-Type: text/html; charset="US-ASCII" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit In a message dated 11/11/02 6:01:16 PM Eastern Standard Time, alpropes@bitstream.net writes:


. I also
don't see how you could call it murder. Let's say they didn't think


Well if you decided to put all the doctors in the world to sleep or anyone with any medical expierence, and patients died, isn't that murder? Same thing. Or if you decided to take all electric power away from every hospital in the world. Same thing. --part1_ce.2fced653.2b01dd48_boundary-- ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: CMento6653@aol.com Subject: Re: TPDIS: TPs and the Ability to Kill Date: 11 Nov 2002 23:29:33 EST --part1_10c.1a651c0f.2b01ddad_boundary Content-Type: text/plain; charset="US-ASCII" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit In a message dated 11/11/02 6:04:10 PM Eastern Standard Time, tptigger42@earthlink.net writes: > Yes but you're forgetting two important facts: 1) he hesitated and but then fulfilled his mission. Liz would be dead if she didn't jaunt. 2) it > was this act that allowed John to break Sogguth's control of him. Only for a moment! He was back under in two seconds I think. Also, > I always saw it as John making himself miss, but that's a little more > subjective Hmm, He didn't miss. He hit the spot where Liz was exactly before she left. --part1_10c.1a651c0f.2b01ddad_boundary Content-Type: text/html; charset="US-ASCII" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit In a message dated 11/11/02 6:04:10 PM Eastern Standard Time, tptigger42@earthlink.net writes:


Yes but you're forgetting two important facts: 1) he hesitated and


but then fulfilled his mission. Liz would be dead if she didn't jaunt.


2) it

was this act that allowed John to break Sogguth's control of him.


Only for a moment! He was back under in two seconds I think.

Also,

I always saw it as John making himself miss, but that's a little more
subjective
Hmm, He didn't miss. He hit the spot where Liz was exactly before she left. --part1_10c.1a651c0f.2b01ddad_boundary-- ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: CMento6653@aol.com Subject: Re: TPDIS: TPs and the Ability to Kill Date: 11 Nov 2002 23:31:23 EST --part1_17d.11b517c2.2b01de1b_boundary Content-Type: text/plain; charset="US-ASCII" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit In a message dated 11/11/02 6:04:10 PM Eastern Standard Time, tptigger42@earthlink.net writes: > You're telling me that the Sorsons are better at mind control than > Sogguth (who was strongly implied to be the devil)? > > Who said the Sorsons used mind control? Where? When? <<>>>>> Isn't that in Tibet? --part1_17d.11b517c2.2b01de1b_boundary Content-Type: text/html; charset="US-ASCII" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit In a message dated 11/11/02 6:04:10 PM Eastern Standard Time, tptigger42@earthlink.net writes:


You're telling me that the Sorsons are better at mind control than
Sogguth (who was strongly implied to be the devil)?



Who said the Sorsons used mind control?  Where? When?


<<<The Lost Gods novelization indicates that the temple was located in the
Himalayas for whatever that's worth.>>>>>>

Isn't that in Tibet?



--part1_17d.11b517c2.2b01de1b_boundary-- ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: CMento6653@aol.com Subject: Re: TPDIS: TPs and the Ability to Kill Date: 11 Nov 2002 23:38:10 EST --part1_17d.11b517c4.2b01dfb2_boundary Content-Type: text/plain; charset="US-ASCII" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit In a message dated 11/11/02 7:36:34 PM Eastern Standard Time, Latimer84@aol.com writes: > What if the TP used telepathy to make people stop working? I realize that it > would be extremely difficult to influence so many people at once, but it > makes more sense than killing a bunch of innocent people. Or maybe they > pulsed the stun gun shots, so that first people got extremely tired (and so > pulled off the road, etc) and then another to put them out? Sure, this is > far-fetched, but so is having the TP kill. And a giant stun gun in space > ^_^; > > This might actually work. We do know that the Tp cannot really affect non telepaths but we also have seen them do it (erasing parts of other's minds for instance and not just in the BLUE AND THE GREEN--I'm sure to make others convinced of things they manipulated minds like the priest in SECRET WEAPON and a doctor in DIRTIEST BUSINESS (?) maybe?. They also used TIM to show "the real violence" to Paul and Douglas in DOOMSDAY MEN so maybe they can get into the minds of others and influence them. Not to mention the fact that maybe the Tp put some people to sleep using the old way...stun guns from the hip but that's unlikely to have had major affects on mass population! --part1_17d.11b517c4.2b01dfb2_boundary Content-Type: text/html; charset="US-ASCII" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit In a message dated 11/11/02 7:36:34 PM Eastern Standard Time, Latimer84@aol.com writes:


What if the TP used telepathy to make people stop working? I realize that it would be extremely difficult to influence so many people at once, but it makes more sense than killing a bunch of innocent people. Or maybe they pulsed the stun gun shots, so that first people got extremely tired (and so pulled off the road, etc) and then another to put them out? Sure, this is far-fetched, but so is having the TP kill. And a giant stun gun in space ^_^;

 
This might actually work. We do know that the Tp cannot really affect non telepaths but we also have seen them do it (erasing parts of other's minds for instance and not just in the BLUE AND THE GREEN--I'm sure to make others convinced of things they manipulated minds like the priest in SECRET WEAPON and a doctor in DIRTIEST BUSINESS (?) maybe?. They also used TIM to show "the real violence" to Paul and Douglas in DOOMSDAY MEN so maybe they can get into the minds of others and influence them. Not to mention the fact that maybe the Tp put some people to sleep using the old way...stun guns from the hip but that's unlikely to have had major affects on mass population! --part1_17d.11b517c4.2b01dfb2_boundary-- ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: CMento6653@aol.com Subject: Re: TPDIS: TPs and the Ability to Kill Date: 11 Nov 2002 23:39:35 EST --part1_16.2827fc0d.2b01e007_boundary Content-Type: text/plain; charset="US-ASCII" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit In a message dated 11/11/02 8:39:51 PM Eastern Standard Time, otherchris@erols.com writes: > Flipping over to the NS, Adam can't kill a shark, even though it's a > clear danger at the time. > > And yet they easily kill mosquitos in CULEX. --part1_16.2827fc0d.2b01e007_boundary Content-Type: text/html; charset="US-ASCII" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit In a message dated 11/11/02 8:39:51 PM Eastern Standard Time, otherchris@erols.com writes:


Flipping over to the NS, Adam can't kill a shark, even though it's a
clear danger at the time.



And yet they easily kill mosquitos in CULEX. --part1_16.2827fc0d.2b01e007_boundary-- ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: CMento6653@aol.com Subject: Re: TPDIS: TPs and the Ability to Kill Date: 11 Nov 2002 23:41:48 EST --part1_1bd.13f56c67.2b01e08c_boundary Content-Type: text/plain; charset="US-ASCII" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit In a message dated 11/11/02 9:03:13 PM Eastern Standard Time, otherchris@erols.com writes: > The point of these sort of discussions is to work with what we're given > by the powers that be. I respect your choice, but for me at least, > picking and choosing which bits of the series I allow in my personal > canon really isn't an option. I'm an "all or nothing" sort of chap :-) > > Well I'm not taking out what I see on screen. I'm taking out what ELSE went on via everyone's observations. Telling me that the Tp would allow what is tantamount to mass death is not in line with the show and what we do see and hear throughout the series. --part1_1bd.13f56c67.2b01e08c_boundary Content-Type: text/html; charset="US-ASCII" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit In a message dated 11/11/02 9:03:13 PM Eastern Standard Time, otherchris@erols.com writes:


The point of these sort of discussions is to work with what we're given
by the powers that be. I respect your choice, but for me at least,
picking and choosing which bits of the series I allow in my personal
canon really isn't an option. I'm an "all or nothing" sort of chap :-)



Well I'm not taking out what I see on screen. I'm taking out what ELSE went on via everyone's observations. Telling me that the Tp would allow what is tantamount to mass death is not in line with the show and what we do see and hear throughout the series. --part1_1bd.13f56c67.2b01e08c_boundary-- ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: "John A. Merullo" Subject: Re: TPDIS: TPs and the Ability to Kill Date: 11 Nov 2002 22:45:35 -0600 CMento6653@aol.com wrote: > In a message dated 11/11/02 6:04:10 PM Eastern Standard Time, > tptigger42@earthlink.net writes: > > >> You're telling me that the Sorsons are better at mind control than >> Sogguth (who was strongly implied to be the devil)? >> > > > Who said the Sorsons used mind control? Where? When? > > > << the > Himalayas for whatever that's worth.>>>>>> > > Isn't that in Tibet? > It could be Tibet, Nepal or India. To confuse matters, Hsui Tai sounds vaguely like a Chinese name and Misako Koba is Japanese. I think I always assumed the character was supposed to be Chinese, but that's more speculation. ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: CMento6653@aol.com Subject: Re: TPDIS: TPs and the Ability to Kill Date: 11 Nov 2002 23:49:02 EST --part1_126.1a34ddcb.2b01e23e_boundary Content-Type: text/plain; charset="US-ASCII" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit In my personal TP canon (no basis in TP reality): TP cannot normally kill but it's their choice not to: and most of the time they pick the choice to not kill. If they do kill...they go crazy or die. I think there are exceptions to this. TP, if they kill animals directly, will also have a conflict or die, however this might be directly related to what that individual Tp believes in his own belief system: ie if Tyso really thought deep down that killing animals was killing (why he wouldn't I don't know), he would die or go nuts. As a footnote to the animal thing: In one of the stories from the novels Stephen saves Bron, an alien animal on a planet that is either about to be destroyed or (I can't recall) is being mined and blown up by the three Tp to stop a collision. Now Stephen had to save Bron but there were many other animals. Did the Tp let them die? Accidents: I think judging from Peter's sadness over Rubowski who did die...and not from Peter's exact choice (accident), that Tp would not go nuts or die from accidents, however the individual accident needs to be examined. If a Tp was trying to shoot a machine very near a human and accidentally hits the human, I believe that TP would go insane or die. Again, there are probably exceptions to all of this. Meat: Tp probably don't eat meat but if they wanted to I imagine they could. They are not directly killing the animals. Everything goes back to changing the world and making it better, ending wars and stopping violence and making peace as Carol stated in SLAVES IMO. --part1_126.1a34ddcb.2b01e23e_boundary Content-Type: text/html; charset="US-ASCII" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit In my personal TP canon (no basis in TP reality):

TP cannot normally kill but it's their choice not to: and most of the time they pick the choice to not kill. If they do kill...they go crazy or die. I think there are exceptions to this.

TP, if they kill animals directly, will also have a conflict or die, however this might be directly related to what that individual Tp believes in his own belief system: ie if Tyso really thought deep down that killing animals was killing (why he wouldn't I don't know), he would die or go nuts.

As a footnote to the animal thing: In one of the stories from the novels Stephen saves Bron, an alien animal on a planet that is either about to be destroyed or (I can't recall) is being mined and blown up by the three Tp to stop a collision. Now Stephen had to save Bron but there were many other animals. Did the Tp let them die?  

Accidents: I think judging from Peter's sadness over Rubowski who did die...and not from Peter's exact choice (accident), that Tp would not go nuts or die from accidents, however the individual accident needs to be examined. If a Tp was trying to shoot a machine very near a human and accidentally hits the human, I believe that TP would go insane or die. Again, there are probably exceptions to all of this.

Meat: Tp probably don't eat meat but if they wanted to I imagine they could. They are not directly killing the animals.

Everything goes back to changing the world and making it better, ending wars and stopping violence and making peace as Carol stated in SLAVES IMO.

  
--part1_126.1a34ddcb.2b01e23e_boundary-- ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: CMento6653@aol.com Subject: Re: TPDIS: TPs and the Ability to Kill Date: 11 Nov 2002 23:49:45 EST --part1_1a6.bc86bd0.2b01e269_boundary Content-Type: text/plain; charset="US-ASCII" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit In a message dated 11/11/02 11:45:48 PM Eastern Standard Time, rockhopper@ev1.net writes: > > > It could be Tibet, Nepal or India. To confuse matters, Hsui Tai sounds > vaguely like a Chinese name and Misako Koba is Japanese. I think I > always assumed the character was supposed to be Chinese, but that's more > speculation. > > > Well she was kidnapped so maybe she was kidnapped from China? Or Japan? --part1_1a6.bc86bd0.2b01e269_boundary Content-Type: text/html; charset="US-ASCII" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit In a message dated 11/11/02 11:45:48 PM Eastern Standard Time, rockhopper@ev1.net writes:


>
It could be Tibet, Nepal or India. To confuse matters, Hsui Tai sounds
vaguely like a Chinese name and Misako Koba is Japanese. I think I
always assumed the character was supposed to be Chinese, but that's more
speculation.




Well she was kidnapped so maybe she was kidnapped from China? Or Japan? --part1_1a6.bc86bd0.2b01e269_boundary-- ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: "Shaun Hately" Subject: Re: TPDIS: TPs and the Ability to Kill Date: 12 Nov 2002 16:01:13 +1100 On 11 Nov 2002 at 23:49, CMento6653@aol.com wrote: > As a footnote to the animal thing: In one of the stories from the novels > Stephen saves Bron, an alien animal on a planet that is either about to be > destroyed or (I can't recall) is being mined and blown up by the three Tp to > stop a collision. Now Stephen had to save Bron but there were many other > animals. Did the Tp let them die? In the end, no - but that was the original plan. The TP did intend to leave the creatures to their fate, but in the end they found a way of dealing with the problem. After Stephen had had to wear the pretty dress (-8 Yours Without Wax, Dreadnought Shaun Hately |webpage: http://www.alphalink.com.au/~drednort/thelab.html (ISTJ) |email: drednort@alphalink.com.au | ICQ: 6898200 "You know the very powerful and the very stupid have one thing in common. They don't alter their views to fit the facts. They alter the facts to fit the views. Which can be uncomfortable if you happen to be one of the facts that need altering." The Doctor - Doctor Who: The Face of Evil | Where am I: Frankston, Victoria, Australia ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: "Shaun Hately" Subject: Re: TPDIS: TPs and the Ability to Kill Date: 12 Nov 2002 16:14:59 +1100 On 11 Nov 2002 at 22:45, John A. Merullo wrote: > > << > the > > Himalayas for whatever that's worth.>>>>>> > > > > Isn't that in Tibet? > > > It could be Tibet, Nepal or India. To confuse matters, Hsui Tai sounds > vaguely like a Chinese name and Misako Koba is Japanese. I think I > always assumed the character was supposed to be Chinese, but that's more > speculation. From the Novelisation, I assume that the temple is in Tibet. The newspaper articles cited about it refer to it being in the Himalayas (which could be Tibet, Nepal, or India as you say) and to persecution by Chinese authorities. The only significant area of the Himalayas under Chinese control is Tibet. Yours Without Wax, Dreadnought Shaun Hately |webpage: http://www.alphalink.com.au/~drednort/thelab.html (ISTJ) |email: drednort@alphalink.com.au | ICQ: 6898200 "You know the very powerful and the very stupid have one thing in common. They don't alter their views to fit the facts. They alter the facts to fit the views. Which can be uncomfortable if you happen to be one of the facts that need altering." The Doctor - Doctor Who: The Face of Evil | Where am I: Frankston, Victoria, Australia ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: "Shaun Hately" Subject: Re: TPDIS: TPs and the Ability to Kill Date: 12 Nov 2002 16:16:28 +1100 On 11 Nov 2002 at 23:49, CMento6653@aol.com wrote: > Well she was kidnapped so maybe she was kidnapped from China? Or Japan? From the novel again - can't remember what is said in the episode, Hsui Tai was taken from Japan as an infant. Yours Without Wax, Dreadnought Shaun Hately |webpage: http://www.alphalink.com.au/~drednort/thelab.html (ISTJ) |email: drednort@alphalink.com.au | ICQ: 6898200 "You know the very powerful and the very stupid have one thing in common. They don't alter their views to fit the facts. They alter the facts to fit the views. Which can be uncomfortable if you happen to be one of the facts that need altering." The Doctor - Doctor Who: The Face of Evil | Where am I: Frankston, Victoria, Australia ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: "Shaun Hately" Subject: TPDIS: Combininatronics Date: 12 Nov 2002 16:45:03 +1100 Another combination post. On 11 Nov 2002 at 16:08, ade wrote: > Right. But he hadn't broken out yet. So taking Dr TOC's reasoning into > account he was just then a telepath and not a TP. The point is, they can > find them regardless. If so, then they are likely bound to be TPs from > birth. I can't see the TP as bound to becoming a TP from birth. There is a potential to be a Tomorrow Person - as it's partly genetic, if the fundamental genetic makeup isn't there, a person cannot break out. But there's nothing binding about that potential - not everyone will break out, just because they are a potential Tomorrow Person - we see that in John's speech to Tricia - when he tells her that something in her life stopped her breaking out ('but it's not too late). So there's two things involved - genetics and choices/random luck/history. A person can be telepathic without being a Tomorrow Person - not all telepaths are even potential TP. It seems to me though that the Tomorrow People must know the difference - John knows Tricia is not just a telepath - she could be a TP. But there never seems to be any assumption that Major Turner is a potential TP, and there is an assumption that Pavla is. On 11 Nov 2002 at 17:13, Doctor TOC wrote: > Nice one. This raises an interesting point. Does the no-killing rule > apply purely to organic life-forms, or could it be applied to other > things? Can TP's play first-person shooter games, or do they lock up at > the mere thought of harming another, even if that person isn't real? > Could they kill TIM? They can't kill TIM because he has a biological component - that's my view and I am sticking to it, because there is no way I am psychologically able to accept the idea of the TPs killing TIM even as a hypothetical (-8 I honestly can't see any reason why computer games would trigger problems - they know they are not real, and I can't see any reason to think they'd have a problem with that - but I don't think there's much evidence in that regard one way or the other. On 11 Nov 2002 at 17:52, CMento6653@aol.com wrote: > Nice arguement but I don't buy it. If they didn't think about what they would > be doing to people when they put them all to sleep, then that is murder. > IMO. > The Opps clause doesn't come into play because they had to know. This is an assumption on your part. You cannot say with certainty that they had to know something - they are dealing with a world threatening situation, with a very small amount of time to deal with it - it's plausible they may not have considered all the implications. Now - I happen to assume, as you seem to want to, that they came up with ways of avoiding deaths - maybe forcefields as you describe - and we simply weren't shown that on screen - but the point is, everything we say on this list is assumption, opinion, and speculation. And I don't agree with calling it murder - for something to be murder, IMHO, it has to be an action intended to cause death - not an action that might cause death. And I think the evidence from the series is that the Tomorrow People can cause death indirectly without the Prime Barrier coming into play. I don't believe they can deliberately choose to kill someone - but they can accept they caused a death through their actions - they had to, on more than one occasion - with Rabowski. With the ship in 'Into the Unknown'. Mike, with Pavla. Could they have accepted deaths caused by their actions in The Blue and The Green? I think so - people were already dying. Considering the senseless violence that was occurring, who is to say what brought down a plane if that did happen. Remember as well, that the TP - well, John, in any event - can be rather callous towards the Saps on occasion - the idea in 'The Vanishing Earth' that it might be kinder not to tell them the Earth is going to be destroyed, the apparent willingness to leave an astronaut floating in space in The Doomsday Men. The TP are not perfectly ethical and moral people - and they do seem to have a belief in their own inherent superiority. Part of that could lead to a real willingness to 'triage' in a crisis. > And as for > it being an "accident" or a series of accidents, that doesn't work either in > my opinion---these were deliberate stoppages during times they knew people > would be killed. I'd rather think they used some kind of forcefields even in > a limited way to cushion the impacts somehow. It certainly makes more sense > than having the Tp commit what amounts to mass murder. I simply don't see it as murder - if there is no intent to kill, there is no murder. And, IMHO, no violation of the Prime Barrier. Yours Without Wax, Dreadnought Shaun Hately |webpage: http://www.alphalink.com.au/~drednort/thelab.html (ISTJ) |email: drednort@alphalink.com.au | ICQ: 6898200 "You know the very powerful and the very stupid have one thing in common. They don't alter their views to fit the facts. They alter the facts to fit the views. Which can be uncomfortable if you happen to be one of the facts that need altering." The Doctor - Doctor Who: The Face of Evil | Where am I: Frankston, Victoria, Australia ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: littlemouse@comcast.net Subject: RE: TPDIS: Chat Date: 12 Nov 2002 08:28:07 -0600 Uh Jackie, I would volunteer. I'm just not sure if I have been around long enough for people to want me to. I also may suggest a place but I need to get there and see if they will allow another channel there or not. -----Original Message----- [mailto:owner-tpdis@lists.xmission.com] On Behalf Of Jackie Clark Sent: Monday, November 11, 2002 3:29 PM please make some suggestions of more appropriate servers. I haven't had a very good response to my call for ten volunteers anyway. -Jackie ----- Original Message ----- Sent: Sunday, November 10, 2002 6:10 PM > Okay :) > > Seeing as this is an issue very close to my own heart, I'm going to put my > tuppence worth in :) > > First of all, Jackie is doing a fantastic job of running the IRC channel, > and all the people who come in a chat really enjoy their stay. (I know I > certainly do) > However, I honestly think Undernet is not a particularly ideal choice for a > new channel, and I think other, smaller servers are probably better suited > to the needs of the TP community ;) (Wow, lotsa big words..) > > Does anybody else agree with this, becuase If I'm speaking out of line, just > tell me to sit down in a corner and be quiet ;) > > Take care ppls > > TinyTim / Simon Fraser > > > ----- Original Message ----- > From: Jackie Clark > To: > Sent: Sunday, November 10, 2002 5:28 PM > Subject: Re: TPDIS: Chat > > > Hello All > Tigger wrote: > I know very little about IRC (I go to our chats and that's about it). > > Presuming that you can get to Undernet with the same kinds of clients as > > dalnet (and therefore not have to pay for all new software) it seems > > like a good idea to me. > > I've made some investigations regarding re-registering our chat channel on > Undernet. You can get to it simply by choosing any Undernet server. Many > come pre-loaded into your irc program so there is no need for new software > etc. I like to use the London server which seems to give uk users a very > quick response time... > > The problem with Undernet is that they do not allow channels to register > just like that! They need at least ten people who agree to be regular ops. > These people have to register, on a particular web site, their interest in > supporting the channel. > > They also like a channel to be up and running for some time (about two weeks > minimum) with regular visitors, for them to consider it worth registering. > > What I need are ten volunteers who can guarantee to support the channel, > these people would need to visit the channel over a few designated weeks (we > can arrange this later) at a specific time, so that we build up enough > activity within the channel to make it viable. > > At the moment anyone can go onto irc Undernet and type /join #TomorrowPeople > > I'd appreciate it if a number of people from the list could do this. You > will not find a regular welcome message and may find the channel empty. What > you are doing is recreating a new channel under that name each time, and > Undernet will probably give you ops status for the time that you are in the > channel. When you leave the channel will disappear, until someone else comes > along... if we can all do this then we'll be able to establish a place for > us to meet and talk in real time. > > I am grateful to the various people who have founded and maintained TP chat > over the years. I believe that it is a useful additional facility to all > list members and there fore worth continuing. > > It's been a while since I organised a live chat with a cast member... would > anyone be interested in James/Daniel Wilson coming to talk about the new > CD's and the direction he feels they are going in? > > Thanks for the support > > Jackie > > > ----- Original Message ----- > From: Beth E. > To: > Sent: Sunday, November 10, 2002 3:03 PM > Subject: Re: TPDIS: Chat > > > > > > On Sunday, November 10, 2002, at 02:51 AM, Jackie Clark wrote: > > > > > I've noticed that Dalnet has had some major problems lately when whole > > > areas > > > of the world cannot log on. If I cannot get into Dalnet in another few > > > weeks > > > the TP chat channel will disappear as a registered channel. > > > > That's why I've been having so much trouble? I was begining to wonder > > if my ISP had been blocked or something. > > > > > > > > I've been considering moving the channel onto Undernet and wondered how > > > people felt about this? The Undernet servers are seldom full and > > > connection > > > is much easier. > > > > > > > > What's the point of having Chat if no one can get there to talk? > > Tigger > > > > > > > > ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: ladyslvr@xmission.com Subject: Re: TPDIS: Combininatronics Date: 12 Nov 2002 06:35:13 -0800 (PST) Shaun sayeth: >I honestly can't see any reason why computer games would trigger >problems - they know they are not real, Which brings up the question: what happens in a scenario like the one found in the book "Ender's Game"? Ender was told he was playing a game; he had every reason to believe it was a game. It wasn't a game. If he had been a TP, or if something similiar were done with a TP, how would the PB work? BTW, I love this discussion. ADMIN: For those wondering, Xmission had a little problem with their mail server over the weekend. Because of Veteran's Day (Nov 11), it took a little longer than normal to fix it. No email was lost, but quite a lot was backed up and delayed. ... Wendy ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: alpropes Subject: Re: TPDIS: TPs and the Ability to Kill Date: 12 Nov 2002 08:48:05 -0600 (CST) On Mon, 11 Nov 2002, Beth E. wrote: > Except that we know he wasn't destroyed on Mercury-- maybe Peter knew > this was the case and intended to merely maroon him. I suspect that's > one tough robot-- he did survive the explosion of the Cyclop's spaceship > in Slaves of Jedikiah remember. I always thought that he was trying to destroy Jedikiah; I haven't had time to review the episode, but I seem to remember them assuming he was (or would be) destroyed. But you're right - one tough robot. :) > > * In Hearts of Sogguth, John resisted stabbing Elizabeth; he missed, but > > the arm followed through, and if Elizabeth didn't move, she would be > > dead > > or gravely wounded. > > Yes but you're forgetting two important facts: 1) he hesitated and 2) it > was this act that allowed John to break Sogguth's control of him. Also, > I always saw it as John making himself miss, but that's a little more > subjective. You're correct - this is subjective. How you see the events may well dictate how you feel about the ability to kill: I saw the hesitation as John fighting Sogguth, and the follow-through with the dagger as John losing the fight. Once the attempt was completed, John was released (although not totally). > You're telling me that the Sorsons are better at mind control than > Sogguth (who was strongly implied to be the devil)? No, just different. Stockholm Syndrome is pretty well accepted as a mental condition. But I like the idea that someone else ventures that the Sorsors on mearly the pawns of something more devious; they're too stupid to be much of anything else. Aaron --- Aaron Lee Propes The Tomorrow People Audio Reviews - http://www2.bitstream.net/~alpropes/tp ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: alpropes Subject: Re: TPDIS: TPs and the Ability to Kill Date: 12 Nov 2002 08:59:15 -0600 (CST) > > * In The Medusa Strain, Peter is intentionally attempting to destroy > > Jedikiah. If you are to give sentience to him (robot or not - he certainly > > had vengance on the CPU); then his destruction is tantamount to killing. > > Same issue here - I would not regard a robot as sentient, no matter how intelligent it > acted - I can certainly see Peter having the same attitude. If you don't believe it's > sentient, you can destroy it. And that's a valid argument; if I were a TP I would be shooting off some angry missives to Cyclops or whoever manufactuered some a robot capable of homocide. > Aggression is *very* different from an ability to kill - the Prime Barrier only prevents > TP from killing - we have no reason to suppose it makes them any less violent in > any other way. The TP seem reasonably opposed to violence - but I think that is > mostly a choice in the same way we all have that choice. Not a prime barrier issue. It's a matter of degree - the line between agression and violence leading to death can be very fine. We haven't seen the TP beat someone some a bloody pulp (but not killing them), so we can only guess where the Prime Barrier kicks in, or if it can be bypassed. The Prime Barrier is as much a philosophy as it is a physical inhibitor. > Actually, I think being a TP does make you more than human - Homo superior - it's > a real thing in the TP universe. I would certainly suspect they can get most or all of > the diseases Homo sapiens can - but the difference is real. I always liked homo novus - I thought it much more appropriate than homo superior. TP have much greater technical and social influences available to them (thanks to the Federation), but at the core, still human. I doubt that homo superior is the actual classification to the TP - so the actual are they/are they not is open to interpretation. But if you go by the "they are still human" idea, the ability to succumb to mental illness and conditions is an open one. > That'll have to do for now - it's great to see the list so active I haven't got time to > reply to everything at once. (-8 Never thought I'd be writing this much on the list. :) Aaron --- Aaron Lee Propes The Tomorrow People Audio Reviews - http://www2.bitstream.net/~alpropes/tp ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: David Steinberg Subject: Re: TPDIS: TPs and the Ability to Kill Date: 12 Nov 2002 07:03:51 -0800 (PST) Well I think it's time for me to repost my theory. My reason for the prime barrier is that every living creature - upon being killed - emits a cry demanding that the killer stop. Any telepath can hear the cry from a human and it's powerful enough for force her to stop. That's why killing prevents people from breaking out. You're forced to cut off your telepathic abilities to do that. If this theory is true, the stronger your abilities, the less you can kill. The best telepath ever probably couldn't step on ants. Anyway, Jedikiah wouldn't have this instinct, so it wouldn't be an issue. -David "ZZYZX" Steinberg www.ihoz.com "very strange raving egomaniac" ********************************************************************** * "I'm having to educate my new *"I can't believe I'm a junior and a* * English friend I met at Burning* film major, when all I really * * Man about Underoos. Don't they* wanted in this life was to marry a* * get anything cool over there?" * lobsterman and cook fish." * * -J. Elizabeth Smith * -a letter from Christie Searing * ********************************************************************** ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: alpropes Subject: Re: TPDIS: TPs and the Ability to Kill Date: 12 Nov 2002 09:10:43 -0600 (CST) I think you have an extremely narrow definition. When placed in a situation where you must choose between two people who are about to die, but can only save one, is there a way, in your philosophy, to keep from being condemned? > Well if you decided to put all the doctors in the world to sleep or anyone > with any medical expierence, and patients died, isn't that murder? Same > thing. Or if you decided to take all electric power away from every hospital > in the world. Same thing. Aaron --- Aaron Lee Propes The Tomorrow People Audio Reviews - http://www2.bitstream.net/~alpropes/tp ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: ade Subject: Re: TPDIS: TPs and the Ability to Kill Date: 12 Nov 2002 10:18:56 -0500 Remember the reason they put the world to sleep! It was to keep them from getting murderously angry and killing each other for no reason other than they had the wrong color badges on. This means that: The pilot and co-pilot would fight and the plane would crash as all the passengers fought. The angry doctor would pull the life support system on the patient as the patient tried to grab a scalpel and murder the doctor. No matter what, people were going to die. This was the most HUMANE way to solve the problem. Imagine what would have happened if they hadn't done it their way. > > Well if you decided to put all the doctors in the world to sleep or anyone > > with any medical expierence, and patients died, isn't that murder? Same > > thing. Or if you decided to take all electric power away from every hospital > > in the world. Same thing. ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: "jeffl1965" Subject: Re: TPDIS: TPs and the Ability to Kill Date: 12 Nov 2002 11:37:14 -0600 ----- Original Message ----- Sent: Monday, November 11, 2002 11:57 AM > > If Patricia particpated in actions that lead to deaths, would that be > the same thing? We only knew her before she officially broke out but she > was still a telepath in every sense of the word. > > Agreed. I suppose the degree of telepathic developement could be argued as to the level of reaction that the person would have, but I also think that it is a lack of desire to kill as much as a genetic thing, I suppose. Let's not forget that Andrew and the TP did have that illusion battle with the soldiers, and they did ''kill'' each other, and yet nobody seemed bothered by it. Andrew even smikred a bit, iirc. Is the thought of killing just as strong as the actual act? Both actions occur in the brain, since you have to have that violent thought before you actually commit the act, right? Would the Prime Barrier kick in before a TP actually commited the act or not? I have a character that wants to kill his father, who is abusive to him. He might not ever get the chance to do so, but he desires it with ever fiber of his being, and he wants to get the chance whenever they meet. However, his father always seems to get the upperhand at some point, and terrorizes him, so whatever bravado he had, fades after a few blows of the fist. The Prime Barrier, in whatever form it is, prevents him from acting on his desires, so far. But is the PB real, or a Urban Legend created by John? Jeff Introducing NetZero Long Distance 1st month Free! Sign up today at: www.netzerolongdistance.com ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: "jeffl1965" Subject: Re: TPDIS: TPs and the Ability to Kill Date: 12 Nov 2002 11:56:54 -0600 ----- Original Message ----- Sent: Monday, November 11, 2002 1:22 PM > ade wrote: > > If Patricia particpated in actions that lead to deaths, would that be > > the same thing? We only knew her before she officially broke out but she > > was still a telepath in every sense of the word. > > I think we need to be careful with definitions here. Being a teleptah > and having telepathic powers are not the same thing as being a TP. > Telepathy is a very clearly defined parapsychological term, and only > deals with mind to mind communication, not PK, teleportation, or any of > the other TP powers. Both the OS series and books stated that some saps > had telepathic abilities, so it's possible to be a telepath yet not a > TP. Maybe telepaths are all potential TPs, maybe only a few have the > potential to break out. Regardless, I think only full TPs have the > "no-killing" instinct. > Indeed. This makes sense, but on the other hand, Mike has his abilities for quite some time prior to his b.o. iirc. It seemed as the onset of puberty made the difference. Also, it is possible that Mike didnt always get such strong emotions like when he laughed, which would sort of explain why they didnt sense his use of tk before. I would hazzard a guess that picking locks doesnt require as much energy as lifting objects across a room would, since its more focused in a smaller area. > I've been thinking about the basis for this instinct for non-violence, > and the concept of the TPs as the next stage of human evolution. A few > fans have pointed out in various articles and fan fics that being unable > to use lethal force to defend yourself is counter evolutionary; if you > believe in evolution (I know some don't, and I can respect that), it > bestows advantages on members of a species that allow them to survive > and propagate. Organisms with counter evolutionary adaptations quickly > die out. > I agree. They didnt change outwardly, which is usually a sign of evolution as I understand it. The different stages of Mankind always used that change as a marker, even if we have no way of knowing if the last of the cro-mags were actually as smart as the homo-erectus, nor the homo-sapiens. But iirc, it was speculated that the TP do have a more developed gland in the brain, but it wasnt accepted as canon as of yet. > I think that the TP's are more than just a stage of genetic evolution, > but a stage of *societal* evolution as well. Look at their group > dynamic. They're individuals, and they have differing opinions, but they > nearly always pull together. And yet when they're beyond a certain range > from each other (like being at the Trig), they pretty much forget about > each other. My theory is that operating on the same telepathic frequency > creates a sense of unity amongst them, an evolutionary adaptation that > naturally makes them form a support group that counteracts their > inability to use violence, quite literally forming strength in numbers, > but that this effect has a relatively limited range, and that once > beyond it the TPs natural individuality re-emerges. With greater > numbers, this effect would create a sort of sense of brotherhood, but > also creating a natural divide between homo superior and homo sapiens, > guaranteeing that the genetic purity of homo superior would remain > intact and increasing the speed at which they would supplant the saps. > I see. That makes sense. Their small society in the Lab is better than the outside world. Their empathic link to each other is obvious, and would explain their unity. That also explains the ''out of sight, out of mind'' predilection that both series seemed to follow. > I think that their telepathic awareness of living minds is the basis for > the TPs inability to use violence. All life generates an > electro-magnetic field, so it's not too much of a stretch to suggest > that anything with a brain generates a similar telepathic field. This > telepathic background noise is a continual reminder on a fundamental > level that all living things are connected. For most TPs, this awareness > is an integral part of them, allowing them to empathise with any living > creature, no matter what it is or what it's about to do, resulting in a > sort of paralysing horror at the thought of doing anything any harm. > Tyso, on the other hand, grew up knowing that everything is connected, > but also being aware that death is a part of life, so the empathy caused > by his telepathic powers doesn't slow him down at all. > Intresting. This makes sense, and would also allow for future TP to kill, since it would be based upon their personal beliefs about death. If its necessary, they could kill to save themselves. Ergo if Tp was from the Middle-East, he/she grew up with death, and killing is normal for them, so to kill an enemy would have no ill effects on them, correct? I think so. > Stephen's brainwashing raises some interesting questions. Normally, > hypnosis and other simple mind control techniques can't make someone do > something that they wouldn't choose to do. However, CIA techniques > developed during the MK-ULTRA program *can*, by working intensively to > re-write the way the subject views the world. For example, a subject > might have a highly developed moral sense that prevents them from > killing humans, but he can be convinced that a target isn't a human > being and therefore must be killed. Many serial killers function by not > considering the people they kill as "real", so it's a possibility that > that's the route the Sorsons took with Stephen, forcing him to view > reality through a filter that reduced the people he killed to the status > of target dummies. Agreed. It makes sense. Besides, would it be intresting if the Goverment made a killer TP? :) Bet they have. Jeff Introducing NetZero Long Distance 1st month Free! Sign up today at: www.netzerolongdistance.com ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: "jeffl1965" Subject: Re: TPDIS: TPs and the Ability to Kill Date: 12 Nov 2002 12:20:07 -0600 Genetic vs Enviroment? Both have their points. But even in nature we can see there are exceptions. Having Grandparents that own a farm, I've seen it all. I'm by no means an expert, but I have observed a lot of things. Genetic: All birds hate blackbirds. Cats kill birds/mice. Cats and Dogs hate each other. People fear the dark. People fear/hate what they dont understand. Enviroment: Cats can be friends with Dogs/birds/mice Some people prefer the dark. Some people like all people, regardless of differences. So, is it possible that some genetics can be overcome, or at least controlled? Possibly. I dont think that Tyso would be the only TP who didnt seemed bothered with killing, but that doesnt mean that I *want* the TP to have a hitman. I just wouldnt want a TP to have to die every few serials just because he/she cant protect themselves. Jeff ----- Original Message ----- Sent: Monday, November 11, 2002 1:19 PM > BUT....in the same way that on Highlander, immortals can tell other > possible immortals, the TP can tell possible TPs. We know this from > "Slaves". That is how they found Stephen in the first place. > > So if you are born to be a TP then the inate "non-kill" instinct should > be there. > > > Introducing NetZero Long Distance 1st month Free! Sign up today at: www.netzerolongdistance.com ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: Beth E. Subject: Re: TPDIS: TPs and the Ability to Kill Date: 12 Nov 2002 12:26:10 -0600 Again, I'm combining messages. Saves mailbox clutter. On Monday, November 11, 2002, at 10:29 PM, CMento6653@aol.com wrote: > > Hmm, He didn't miss. He hit the spot where Liz was exactly before she=20= > left. Helps if I know *which* time in HoS John is attacking Liz. You're=20 referring to the second time in the temple when they went to destroy the=20= drum (I thought you were referring to the first time when Liz was=20 sleeping). My bad. OK, so here is the argument I should've entered:=20 John broke control long enough to tell Liz to jaunt and managed to=20 hesitate long enough to allow her to do so. The first time, Sogguth=20 wasn't expecting much resistance, so it allowed John to break the=20 spell. The second time, it expended a lot more energy, and John was=20 still able to break control long enough to get away. Keep in mind Soggoth (through Jake) didn't want to risk that happening a=20= third time and wanted to send someone else after Liz-- until John=20 pointed out he could use the stun gun just to stop here. Whatever=20 resistance John managed to put up against killing must have been enough=20= that it didn't want to try a third time. > > Who said the Sorsons used mind control? =A0Where? When? Um, I was referring to the alleged Stockholm Syndrome in The Deadliest=20= Species. Which I find hard to buy-- I think there's an implant they=20 didn't know about (hmm... fanfic fix anyone?). I'm saying if Sogguth=20 couldn't force John to kill there's no power on this Earth (or in this=20= galaxy) that could allow the Sorsons to force Stephen to kill. And now for something completely different: Jeff wrote: > Let's not forget that Andrew and the TP did have that illusion = battle=20 > with > the soldiers, and they did ''kill'' each other, and yet nobody seemed > bothered by it. Andrew even smikred a bit, iirc. I think this would probably fall under the same category as video=20 games. They're not real-- Mike, Andrew, and John all know they're not=20= real. So what's the harm? It's just a game. > I agree. They didnt change outwardly, which is usually a sign of > evolution as I understand it. Not necessarily. The original difference between horses and donkeys=20 were parts of chromosomes breaking off and attaching themselves to other=20= chromosomes. This why they can still mate to produce mules, but the=20 mules are sterile because the chromosomes don't line up properly during=20= egg/sperm formation so the offspring can't get one full set. This=20 prevented them from mating successfully with each other (the line dies=20= out after one generation) and any physical differences arose=20 subsequently to these genetic differences. > Intresting. This makes sense, and would also allow for future TP to=20 > kill, > since it would be based upon their personal beliefs about death. If = its > necessary, they could kill to save themselves. Ergo if Tp was from = the > Middle-East, he/she grew up with death, and killing is normal for = them,=20 > so > to kill an enemy would have no ill effects on them, correct? I think = so. OK, there's a big fat gaping hole in the "Tyso's used to killing=20 animals" theory. I doubt a TP growing up in the Middle-East with those=20= kinds of behavior patterns would break out-- much like Tricia with the=20= SIS. This might also have to do with why no one thought Major Turner=20 would be a TP-- she maybe had done too much to ever break out, but=20 Tricia for some reason, hadn't. My $.02 at any rate. Tigger ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: "jeffl1965" Subject: Re: TPDIS: TPs and the Ability to Kill Date: 12 Nov 2002 12:30:20 -0600 This is a multi-part message in MIME format. ------=_NextPart_000_0042_01C28A47.43C9B980 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Agreed. I do think it depends upon the upbringing of the TP, and once = again, Tyso comes to mind. Jeff ----- Original Message -----=20 From: CMento6653@aol.com=20 To: tpdis@lists.xmission.com=20 Sent: Monday, November 11, 2002 2:01 PM Subject: Re: TPDIS: TPs and the Ability to Kill In a message dated 11/11/02 2:22:08 PM Eastern Standard Time, = ade@bestweb.net writes:=20 BUT....in the same way that on Highlander, immortals can tell other=20 possible immortals, the TP can tell possible TPs. We know this from=20 "Slaves". That is how they found Stephen in the first place.=20 So if you are born to be a TP then the inate "non-kill" instinct = should=20 be there.=20 Hmm, not sure about this. I don't know that there are those "born" to = be a TP that would have a non kill instinct. I guess it's nature vs = nurture. I think if some possible Tps start to choose a life of secret = agency, killing, and mean doing, they would NOT have that non kill = instinct unless it started to make them feel guilty. Not sure about all = that.=20 ------=_NextPart_000_0042_01C28A47.43C9B980 Content-Type: text/html; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable
   Agreed. I do think it = depends upon the=20 upbringing of the TP, and once again, Tyso comes to mind.
 
  Jeff
----- Original Message -----
From:=20 CMento6653@aol.com
Sent: Monday, November 11, 2002 = 2:01=20 PM
Subject: Re: TPDIS: TPs and the = Ability=20 to Kill

In a = message dated=20 11/11/02 2:22:08 PM Eastern Standard Time, ade@bestweb.net writes: =


BUT....in the same way that on Highlander, immortals can = tell=20 other
possible immortals, the TP can tell possible TPs. We know = this=20 from
"Slaves". That is how they found Stephen in the first = place.=20

So if you are born to be a TP then the inate "non-kill" = instinct=20 should
be there.





Hmm, not sure about this. I don't know that = there are=20 those "born" to be a TP that would have a non kill instinct. I guess = it's=20 nature vs nurture. I think if some possible Tps start to choose a life = of=20  secret agency, killing, and mean doing, they would NOT have that = non=20 kill instinct unless it started to make them feel guilty. Not sure = about all=20 that.
 
------=_NextPart_000_0042_01C28A47.43C9B980-- Introducing NetZero Long Distance 1st month Free! Sign up today at: www.netzerolongdistance.com ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: "jeffl1965" Subject: Re: TPDIS: TPs and the Ability to Kill Date: 12 Nov 2002 12:53:28 -0600 ----- Original Message ----- Sent: Monday, November 11, 2002 4:13 PM > Nice one. This raises an interesting point. Does the no-killing rule > apply purely to organic life-forms, or could it be applied to other > things? Can TP's play first-person shooter games, or do they lock up at > the mere thought of harming another, even if that person isn't real? > Could they kill TIM? > Again, I think it depends upon the TP and the situation. Andrew and the others killed those illusions. Andrew ate hagis and a lot of other meat, which I presume some of which he and his father could've slaughtered themselves. I'm only guessing that having a hotel that didnt always do so well, sheep herding would be something to fall back upon, or that they would at least own a few sheep of their own. Jeff Introducing NetZero Long Distance 1st month Free! Sign up today at: www.netzerolongdistance.com ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: "jeffl1965" Subject: Re: TPDIS: TPs and the Ability to Kill Date: 12 Nov 2002 12:57:23 -0600 ----- Original Message ----- Sent: Monday, November 11, 2002 4:13 PM > > Could they kill TIM? > I think so. In one episode TIM was turned off, iirc, or at least couldnt be communicated with. To have that switch could prove that if he went bad for whatever reason, that they could ''kill'' him to protect themselves. After all, if TIM turned evil, where could they hide from him? How could they stun him from a distance? TIM can reach out to them anywhere, and a psionic blast would be all he had to do, if he didnt kill them during a jaunt. It would be intresting to see how they could get close enough to him to turn him off if such a thing happened. Jeff Introducing NetZero Long Distance 1st month Free! Sign up today at: www.netzerolongdistance.com ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: "jeffl1965" Subject: Re: TPDIS: Stephen and Mike (Was TPs and the Ability to Kill) Date: 12 Nov 2002 13:14:47 -0600 This is a multi-part message in MIME format. ------=_NextPart_000_0090_01C28A4D.797DD600 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Yeah, and didnt Stephen not really like Mike all that much anyway? I = suppose he could've moved out due to that, but I just dont really see = Stephen as being that kind of person, but people change as they get = older. Jeff ----- Original Message -----=20 From: CMento6653@aol.com=20 To: tpdis@lists.xmission.com=20 Sent: Monday, November 11, 2002 4:20 PM Subject: Re: TPDIS: Stephen and Mike (Was TPs and the Ability to Kill) In a message dated 11/11/02 4:13:35 PM Eastern Standard Time, = rockhopper@ev1.net writes:=20 During series four when Mike and Stephen both were part of the cast, = I=20 could understand Mike being jealous of the fact that Stephen and = John=20 had become close friends and perhaps that may have lingered unspoken = for=20 Mike for the duration of the OS, but in "Deadliest Species", Stephen = mumbles to John under his breath "Sorry I'm not Mike." and later = goes on=20 to Elena how Mike moved in and he was moved out. Of course Stephen = is=20 not in his right mind in DS, so that may have brought this out more = than=20 it would have been otherwise.=20 Interesting. Since we never will know, canon wise, why Stephen (and = Tyso) had to be "moved out" fiction wise, this makes either great sense = or little sense, depending on the circumstances. Mike was more jealous = of the fact that he had very little to do compared to Stephen but as = they were only in two stories together (ONE LAW-Mike's break out story = and INTO THE UNKNOWN) this is not even a thought for canon but all = speculation.=20 ------=_NextPart_000_0090_01C28A4D.797DD600 Content-Type: text/html; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable
  Yeah, and didnt Stephen not = really like Mike=20 all that much anyway? I suppose he could've moved out due to that, but I = just=20 dont really see Stephen as being that kind of person, but people change = as they=20 get older.
 
  Jeff
----- Original Message -----
From:=20 CMento6653@aol.com
Sent: Monday, November 11, 2002 = 4:20=20 PM
Subject: Re: TPDIS: Stephen and = Mike (Was=20 TPs and the Ability to Kill)

In a = message dated=20 11/11/02 4:13:35 PM Eastern Standard Time, rockhopper@ev1.net writes: =



During series four when Mike and Stephen both were = part of=20 the cast, I
could understand Mike being jealous of the fact that = Stephen=20 and John
had become close friends and perhaps that may have = lingered=20 unspoken for
Mike for the duration of the OS, but in "Deadliest=20 Species", Stephen
mumbles to John under his breath "Sorry I'm = not Mike."=20 and later goes on
to Elena how Mike moved in and he was moved = out. Of=20 course Stephen is
not in his right mind in DS, so that may have = brought=20 this out more than
it would have been otherwise. =



Interesting. Since = we never will=20 know, canon wise, why Stephen (and Tyso) had to be "moved out" fiction = wise,=20 this makes either great sense or little sense, depending on the = circumstances.=20 Mike was more jealous of the fact that he had very little to do = compared to=20 Stephen but as they were only in two stories together (ONE LAW-Mike's = break=20 out story and INTO THE UNKNOWN) this is not even a thought for canon = but all=20 speculation. ------=_NextPart_000_0090_01C28A4D.797DD600-- Introducing NetZero Long Distance 1st month Free! Sign up today at: www.netzerolongdistance.com ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: "jeffl1965" Subject: Re: TPDIS: TPs and the Ability to Kill Date: 12 Nov 2002 13:19:35 -0600 This is a multi-part message in MIME format. ------=_NextPart_000_009E_01C28A4E.252BB9E0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Indeed. Peter could be Super-TP, if you will. They would have to have = better developed powers, imho, and would most likely *need* to be able = to kill in order to correct any errors that they find made by illegal = visitors to the TimeStream. Imagine what would happen if The Master = gained control over the TimeLanes. They'd have to kill him him. He'd = certainly kill them off, and a stungun just wouldnt do it. Jeff ----- Original Message -----=20 From: CMento6653@aol.com=20 To: tpdis@lists.xmission.com=20 Sent: Monday, November 11, 2002 4:25 PM Subject: Re: TPDIS: TPs and the Ability to Kill The whole Jedikiah thing is a mess too. First he was a bionic robot = that could shape shift as an ability. Then he just made himself look = like a robot and was a shape shifter in the second story. Later he was = called an android I think but seemed more human-like. So to call his = killing by Peter a murder is sort of in gray areas again. Sigh. Peter = did kill Rubowski and lived though. But again, Peter himself is a gray = area: is he just a TP? Is a Time Guardian subject to the exact same laws = (which are gray enough for pure TPs from the present day Earth) as Tps = and non TGs?=20 ------=_NextPart_000_009E_01C28A4E.252BB9E0 Content-Type: text/html; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable
   Indeed. Peter could be = Super-TP, if=20 you will. They would have to have better developed powers, imho, and = would most=20 likely *need* to be able to kill in order to correct any errors that = they find=20 made by illegal visitors to the TimeStream. Imagine what would happen if = The=20 Master gained control over the TimeLanes. They'd have to kill him him. = He'd=20 certainly kill them off, and a stungun just wouldnt do it.
 
  Jeff
----- Original Message -----
From:=20 CMento6653@aol.com
Sent: Monday, November 11, 2002 = 4:25=20 PM
Subject: Re: TPDIS: TPs and the = Ability=20 to Kill

The whole = Jedikiah=20 thing is a mess too. First he was a bionic robot that could shape = shift as an=20 ability. Then he just made himself look like a robot and was a shape = shifter=20 in the second story. Later he was called an android I think but seemed = more=20 human-like. So to call his killing by Peter a murder is sort of in = gray areas=20 again. Sigh. Peter did kill Rubowski and lived though. But again, = Peter=20 himself is a gray area: is he just a TP? Is a Time Guardian subject to = the=20 exact same laws (which are gray enough for pure TPs from the present = day=20 Earth) as Tps and non TGs? ------=_NextPart_000_009E_01C28A4E.252BB9E0-- Introducing NetZero Long Distance 1st month Free! Sign up today at: www.netzerolongdistance.com ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: "jeffl1965" Subject: Re: TPDIS: TPs and the Ability to Kill Date: 12 Nov 2002 13:24:39 -0600 Well, I dont think he meant it that way, just that it was showing how Price let the writers get away with a lot of things that didnt gel well with what he had written in earlier episodes and the books. Plus, I think that Price was bored with the TP by then, just like it shows in the last few seasons of YCDTOT, which looks more like Darby was doing those with Price's blessing since he didnt care anymore. Jeff ----- Original Message ----- Sent: Monday, November 11, 2002 4:34 PM > Well then all this shouldn't be such a huge surprise to you. (It sounds > from your notes that this is all new ideas here). > > Sci-Fi is Sci-Fi. It isn't supposed to be realistic. Science FICTION is > the important thing to remember. > > >>>Uh, yeah, at least five times or more! :) > > Introducing NetZero Long Distance 1st month Free! Sign up today at: www.netzerolongdistance.com ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: "jeffl1965" Subject: Re: TPDIS: TPs and the Ability to Kill Date: 12 Nov 2002 13:30:50 -0600 This is a multi-part message in MIME format. ------=_NextPart_000_00CA_01C28A4F.B73134E0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Yeah, the Opps! Theory doenst work all the time, but I guess it would = cover the few humans/aliens that might've died with a stun blast. Since = it apparently affects the nervous system, who's to say that it hasnt = stopped some hearts or even brains over the years? I think its a = case-by-case scenario. If they feel guilty as hell after killing = somebody, then the PB could kick in as punishment, imho, but if they are = detached, then I dont think it would matter. Again, I'm not arguing for = a bunch of killer TP, I just mean that it is possible, and would have to = be or as others have stated, there might not be anyone around to guide = the new TP during the mass breakout. =20 Jeff ----- Original Message -----=20 From: CMento6653@aol.com=20 To: tpdis@lists.xmission.com=20 Sent: Monday, November 11, 2002 4:52 PM Subject: Re: TPDIS: TPs and the Ability to Kill In a message dated 11/11/02 5:47:55 PM Eastern Standard Time, = alpropes@bitstream.net writes:=20 I think it's safe to say that everyone has, at one time or another, = rushed=20 into some action, not thinking of the possible consequences or=20 reprocussions. It's very possible that they all got cought up in the = only=20 possibility they could think of to save Earth, and missed the = details.=20 How is it any different than if a TP drove a car, had an accident, = and=20 killed a passenger or other driver? Does the Prime Barrier make them = better drivers? Obviously no, accidents happen - sometimes fatal = ones. The=20 Prime Barrier cannot protect the TPs from consequences they could = not, or=20 did not, forsee.=20 Now the big question is, did Tim, who, being a computer, is a bit = more=20 detatched from the situation, purposely stay silent? ;)=20 Nice arguement but I don't buy it. If they didn't think about what = they would be doing to people when they put them all to sleep, then that = is murder. IMO. The Opps clause doesn't come into play because they had = to know. And as for it being an "accident" or a series of accidents, = that doesn't work either in my opinion---these were deliberate stoppages = during times they knew people would be killed. I'd rather think they = used some kind of forcefields even in a limited way to cushion the = impacts somehow. It certainly makes more sense than having the Tp commit = what amounts to mass murder.=20 ------=_NextPart_000_00CA_01C28A4F.B73134E0 Content-Type: text/html; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable
   Yeah, the Opps! Theory = doenst work all=20 the time, but I guess it would cover the few humans/aliens that might've = died=20 with a stun blast. Since it apparently affects the nervous system, who's = to say=20 that it hasnt stopped some hearts or even brains over the years? I think = its a=20 case-by-case scenario. If they feel guilty as hell after killing = somebody, then=20 the PB could kick in as punishment, imho, but if they are detached, then = I dont=20 think it would matter. Again, I'm not arguing for a bunch of killer TP, = I just=20 mean that it is possible, and would have to be or as others have stated, = there=20 might not be anyone around to guide the new TP during the mass=20 breakout.
 
   Jeff
----- Original Message -----
From:=20 CMento6653@aol.com
Sent: Monday, November 11, 2002 = 4:52=20 PM
Subject: Re: TPDIS: TPs and the = Ability=20 to Kill

In a = message dated=20 11/11/02 5:47:55 PM Eastern Standard Time, alpropes@bitstream.net = writes:=20


I think it's safe to say that everyone has, at one time = or=20 another, rushed
into some action, not thinking of the possible=20 consequences or
reprocussions. It's very possible that they all = got=20 cought up in the only
possibility they could think of to save = Earth, and=20 missed the details.

How is it any different than if a TP = drove a=20 car, had an accident, and
killed a passenger or other driver? = Does the=20 Prime Barrier make them
better drivers? Obviously no, accidents = happen -=20 sometimes fatal ones. The
Prime Barrier cannot protect the TPs = from=20 consequences they could not, or
did not, forsee.

Now the = big=20 question is, did Tim, who, being a computer, is a bit more =
detatched=20 from the situation, purposely stay silent? ;)



Nice arguement but I = don't buy it.=20 If they didn't think about what they would be doing to people when = they put=20 them all to sleep, then that is murder. IMO. The Opps clause doesn't = come into=20 play because they had to know. And as for it being an "accident" or a = series=20 of accidents, that doesn't work either in my opinion---these were = deliberate=20 stoppages during times they knew people would be killed. I'd rather = think they=20 used some kind of forcefields even in a limited way to cushion the = impacts=20 somehow. It certainly makes more sense than having the Tp commit what = amounts=20 to mass murder. ------=_NextPart_000_00CA_01C28A4F.B73134E0-- Introducing NetZero Long Distance 1st month Free! Sign up today at: www.netzerolongdistance.com ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: "Carol Bevis" Subject: Re: TPDIS: TPs and the Ability to Kill Date: 11 Nov 2002 19:47:44 -0000 I always thought (warning - another theory coming on) that the ability to teleport/jaunt (I prefer teleport as a NS fan) was what prevented them from killing. Adam said as much when trying to explain it to Kevin in the origin story. "Think about it, we're telepathic, we can teleport. We could get guns easily." and to Lisa "Imagine what they could do with us in their wars and spying and stuff." Regards, Carol ----- Original Message ----- Sent: Monday, November 11, 2002 7:19 PM > BUT....in the same way that on Highlander, immortals can tell other > possible immortals, the TP can tell possible TPs. We know this from > "Slaves". That is how they found Stephen in the first place. > > So if you are born to be a TP then the inate "non-kill" instinct should > be there. > > > > Doctor TOC wrote: > > > > ade wrote: > > > If Patricia particpated in actions that lead to deaths, would that be > > > the same thing? We only knew her before she officially broke out but she > > > was still a telepath in every sense of the word. > > > > I think we need to be careful with definitions here. Being a teleptah > > and having telepathic powers are not the same thing as being a TP. > > Telepathy is a very clearly defined parapsychological term, and only > > deals with mind to mind communication, not PK, teleportation, or any of > > the other TP powers. Both the OS series and books stated that some saps > > had telepathic abilities, so it's possible to be a telepath yet not a > > TP. Maybe telepaths are all potential TPs, maybe only a few have the > > potential to break out. Regardless, I think only full TPs have the > > "no-killing" instinct. > > > > I've been thinking about the basis for this instinct for non-violence, > > and the concept of the TPs as the next stage of human evolution. A few > > fans have pointed out in various articles and fan fics that being unable > > to use lethal force to defend yourself is counter evolutionary; if you > > believe in evolution (I know some don't, and I can respect that), it > > bestows advantages on members of a species that allow them to survive > > and propagate. Organisms with counter evolutionary adaptations quickly > > die out. > > > > I think that the TP's are more than just a stage of genetic evolution, > > but a stage of *societal* evolution as well. Look at their group > > dynamic. They're individuals, and they have differing opinions, but they > > nearly always pull together. And yet when they're beyond a certain range > > from each other (like being at the Trig), they pretty much forget about > > each other. My theory is that operating on the same telepathic frequency > > creates a sense of unity amongst them, an evolutionary adaptation that > > naturally makes them form a support group that counteracts their > > inability to use violence, quite literally forming strength in numbers, > > but that this effect has a relatively limited range, and that once > > beyond it the TPs natural individuality re-emerges. With greater > > numbers, this effect would create a sort of sense of brotherhood, but > > also creating a natural divide between homo superior and homo sapiens, > > guaranteeing that the genetic purity of homo superior would remain > > intact and increasing the speed at which they would supplant the saps. > > > > I think that their telepathic awareness of living minds is the basis for > > the TPs inability to use violence. All life generates an > > electro-magnetic field, so it's not too much of a stretch to suggest > > that anything with a brain generates a similar telepathic field. This > > telepathic background noise is a continual reminder on a fundamental > > level that all living things are connected. For most TPs, this awareness > > is an integral part of them, allowing them to empathise with any living > > creature, no matter what it is or what it's about to do, resulting in a > > sort of paralysing horror at the thought of doing anything any harm. > > Tyso, on the other hand, grew up knowing that everything is connected, > > but also being aware that death is a part of life, so the empathy caused > > by his telepathic powers doesn't slow him down at all. > > > > Stephen's brainwashing raises some interesting questions. Normally, > > hypnosis and other simple mind control techniques can't make someone do > > something that they wouldn't choose to do. However, CIA techniques > > developed during the MK-ULTRA program *can*, by working intensively to > > re-write the way the subject views the world. For example, a subject > > might have a highly developed moral sense that prevents them from > > killing humans, but he can be convinced that a target isn't a human > > being and therefore must be killed. Many serial killers function by not > > considering the people they kill as "real", so it's a possibility that > > that's the route the Sorsons took with Stephen, forcing him to view > > reality through a filter that reduced the people he killed to the status > > of target dummies. > > > > Doctor TOC > > -- > > The Reverend Doctor "The Other Chris" > > Secret Elf, Jive Talkin' Choirboy, God of Cowboy Spurs > > ICQ # 4814586 > > Daleks! 3D - http://users.rcn.com/otherchris/ > > Time War RPG - http://jump.to/TimeWar > > alt.tv.sevendays FAQ - http://welcome.to/7-Days > > The TOC Files - http://members.fortunecity.com/toc > > ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: alpropes Subject: Re: TPDIS: TPs and the Ability to Kill Date: 12 Nov 2002 13:58:55 -0600 (CST) On Tue, 12 Nov 2002, Beth E. wrote: > Um, I was referring to the alleged Stockholm Syndrome in The Deadliest > Species. Which I find hard to buy-- I think there's an implant they > didn't know about (hmm... fanfic fix anyone?). I'm saying if Sogguth > couldn't force John to kill there's no power on this Earth (or in this > galaxy) that could allow the Sorsons to force Stephen to kill. The difference is methodology. Sogguth's method was to overpower John's will (to use another show, similar to the Goa'uld taking over a human in Stargate): the upside is you get all of John's abilities and knowledge, and total obedience, but only after he's totally subjugated (take your pick on why it ultimately failed). The end result of Stockholm is that the entire world-view of the subject is distorted. He's not a puppet, like Sogguth wanted of John, but instead of convinced that everything he knew before was wrong. So, just like some on the list was saying that the Prime Barrier didn't affect the TP in The Blue and The Green when they put millions of people at risk by the stun gunning of the planet, Stephen's mindset under Stockholm Syndrome allows the same in The Deadliest Species. Stockholm is commonly associated with Dissociative Identity Disorder and Post-Traumatic Stress Disorder - mental illnesses caused by the treatment of the subject - in this case, Stephen, which in the case of a TP, could also cause the total breakdown of the Prime Barrier. I guess my view on the subject, is that the Prime Barrier is not impenetrable; nothing else of the human psyche is, so why make the Prime Barrier the only one? Aaron --- Aaron Lee Propes The Tomorrow People Audio Reviews - http://www2.bitstream.net/~alpropes/tp ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: "Carol Bevis" Subject: Re: TPDIS: TPs and the Ability to Kill Date: 12 Nov 2002 20:15:23 -0000 Personally I think the PB was something dreamt up by the (in my opinion PIN BUNDY - Pain In Neck But Unfortunately Not Dead Yet) Galactic Trig, and passed on to John in a way which prevented him from questioning it. Regards, Carol ----- Original Message ----- Sent: Tuesday, November 12, 2002 5:37 PM > > ----- Original Message ----- > From: "ade" > To: > Sent: Monday, November 11, 2002 11:57 AM > Subject: Re: TPDIS: TPs and the Ability to Kill > > > > > > If Patricia particpated in actions that lead to deaths, would that be > > the same thing? We only knew her before she officially broke out but she > > was still a telepath in every sense of the word. > > > > > Agreed. I suppose the degree of telepathic developement could be argued > as to the level of reaction that the person would have, but I also think > that it is a lack of desire to kill as much as a genetic thing, I suppose. > Let's not forget that Andrew and the TP did have that illusion battle with > the soldiers, and they did ''kill'' each other, and yet nobody seemed > bothered by it. Andrew even smikred a bit, iirc. Is the thought of killing > just as strong as the actual act? Both actions occur in the brain, since you > have to have that violent thought before you actually commit the act, right? > Would the Prime Barrier kick in before a TP actually commited the act or > not? > I have a character that wants to kill his father, who is abusive to him. > He might not ever get the chance to do so, but he desires it with ever fiber > of his being, and he wants to get the chance whenever they meet. However, > his father always seems to get the upperhand at some point, and terrorizes > him, so whatever bravado he had, fades after a few blows of the fist. The > Prime Barrier, in whatever form it is, prevents him from acting on his > desires, so far. But is the PB real, or a Urban Legend created by John? > > Jeff > > --------------------------------------------- > Introducing NetZero Long Distance > 1st month Free! > Sign up today at: www.netzerolongdistance.com > > ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: "Carol Bevis" Subject: Re: TPDIS: TPs and the Ability to Kill Date: 12 Nov 2002 20:11:44 -0000 I agree with you calling TPs Homo Novus is better than Superior - take my opinion of OS for example. They seem unable to make the most basic connections - or is it that they saw teenagers at the time as dumb/thick/unintelligent (take your pick)? I reckon that the kids who originally watched it first time round would have made the connections faster than the TPs themselves. It doesn't say much for their supposed higher intelligence, does it? I must also admit, having seen the first 5 stories of OS now, that I'm STILL a NS fan. The only story that made me thing I could be an OS fan was The Blue and The Green, but A Rift in Time has seriously disappointed me on that front. NS seems to give the main characters some credit for having the ability to make connections that is sorely lacking in OS. However, I *am* willing to be convinced. Regards, Carol ----- Original Message ----- Sent: Tuesday, November 12, 2002 2:59 PM > > > * In The Medusa Strain, Peter is intentionally attempting to destroy > > > Jedikiah. If you are to give sentience to him (robot or not - he certainly > > > had vengance on the CPU); then his destruction is tantamount to killing. > > > > Same issue here - I would not regard a robot as sentient, no matter how intelligent it > > acted - I can certainly see Peter having the same attitude. If you don't believe it's > > sentient, you can destroy it. > > And that's a valid argument; if I were a TP I would be shooting off some > angry missives to Cyclops or whoever manufactuered some a robot capable of > homocide. > > > Aggression is *very* different from an ability to kill - the Prime Barrier only prevents > > TP from killing - we have no reason to suppose it makes them any less violent in > > any other way. The TP seem reasonably opposed to violence - but I think that is > > mostly a choice in the same way we all have that choice. Not a prime barrier issue. > > It's a matter of degree - the line between agression and violence leading > to death can be very fine. We haven't seen the TP beat someone some a > bloody pulp (but not killing them), so we can only guess where the Prime > Barrier kicks in, or if it can be bypassed. The Prime Barrier is as much a > philosophy as it is a physical inhibitor. > > > Actually, I think being a TP does make you more than human - Homo superior - it's > > a real thing in the TP universe. I would certainly suspect they can get most or all of > > the diseases Homo sapiens can - but the difference is real. > > I always liked homo novus - I thought it much more appropriate than homo > superior. TP have much greater technical and social influences available > to them (thanks to the Federation), but at the core, still human. I doubt > that homo superior is the actual classification to the TP - so the actual > are they/are they not is open to interpretation. But if you go by the > "they are still human" idea, the ability to succumb to mental illness and > conditions is an open one. > > > That'll have to do for now - it's great to see the list so active I haven't got time to > > reply to everything at once. (-8 > > Never thought I'd be writing this much on the list. :) > > Aaron > > --- > Aaron Lee Propes > The Tomorrow People Audio Reviews - http://www2.bitstream.net/~alpropes/tp > > > > ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: "Carol Bevis" Subject: Re: TPDIS: TPs and the Ability to Kill Date: 12 Nov 2002 19:58:27 -0000 If they cannot kill sentient life, shouldn't there be some kind of test we can use to define sentient life? I would suggest a variation on the Azimov model: 1. Survival 2. Do not kill other sentient beings 3. The capacity for self-saccrifice for others (the most important) Any comments or other ideas for tests? Regards, Carol ----- Original Message ----- Sent: Tuesday, November 12, 2002 12:19 AM > Attempting to neatly combine comments on myriad posts: > > On 11 Nov 2002 at 12:56, CMento6653@AOL.COM wrote: > > > Well I was ready to diagree with your statement but your statement reminded > > me of something: Pavla killed herself, even though it could be argued that > > she really wasn't a TP. > > I believe Pavla was a TP (she's stated as being one in the Dirtiest Business) but I do > not believe we can view her as having killed herself. Pavla's motivation in jumping > from the window was not to kill herself - it was simply to get herself as far away from > others as possible. Yes, she knew doing so would lead to her death - but her death > at that point was fundamentally inevitable anyway. There is a difference between > killing yourself and accepting death as a price for saving others. > > On 11 Nov 2002 at 12:57, ade wrote: > > > If Patricia particpated in actions that lead to deaths, would that be > > the same thing? We only knew her before she officially broke out but she > > was still a telepath in every sense of the word. > > My opinion - no. With regards to the Prime Barrier, there is a distinction between > being responsible for a person's death, and deliberately killing them. This distinction > is seen from Rabowski onwards. They were responsible for Rabowski's death in the > sense that their actions made it happen - and it did upset them - but it was not a > prime barrier issue. It seems to come down to the degree of involvement - exactly > where the line is - I'm not entirely sure. > > On 11 Nov 2002 at 12:32, John A. Merullo wrote: > > > It always seemed to me one of the inconsistencies of the series was that > > there was no barrier against killing non-sentient beings (i.e., > > animals). You can rationalise that the TP are not vegetarians because > > TIM can replicate organic matter and when they eat meat, no animal was > > harmed, but then there was Tyso. One would imagine that Hsui Tai was a > > vegetarian because she was probably raised as one, growing up in an > > Eastern monastery, but that is purely speculation. I only know what I've > > read on the fan sites about the NS, but wasn't there an episode when > > Adam had an issue with killing a shark? > > I just can't see this as an inconsistency - I don't think there is any inconsistency with > being able to kill a non-sentient creature, but not being able to kill a sentient one. > The Prime Barrier simply *exists* - there's no reason to assume it fits any particular > rule. > > There is a question however as to what sentience is, and how the TP would know if > a particular creature was sentient or not. I'm of the opinion that the Prime Barrier > only applies if the Tomorrow Person in question *believes* the creature they are > dealing with is sentient. With humans (and many intelligent aliens) the sentience is > obvious - with other creatures it isn't. > > Now, I don't believe a shark is a sentient creature - but that doesn't mean Adam > doesn't. The belief may be erroneous - but if it exists, it may prevent a person being > able to kill an animal, another easily could. > > On 11 Nov 2002 at 14:57, alpropes wrote: > > > Cool! I'm not alone anymore! :) To summarize my arguments about the > > ability for TPs to kill, I've pulled from the following episodes: > > > > * In The Medusa Strain, Peter is intentionally attempting to destroy > > Jedikiah. If you are to give sentience to him (robot or not - he certainly > > had vengance on the CPU); then his destruction is tantamount to killing. > > Same issue here - I would not regard a robot as sentient, no matter how intelligent it > acted - I can certainly see Peter having the same attitude. If you don't believe it's > sentient, you can destroy it. > > > * In Hearts of Sogguth, John resisted stabbing Elizabeth; he missed, but > > the arm followed through, and if Elizabeth didn't move, she would be dead > > or gravely wounded. > > > > We've seen aggression in TPs throughout the series. > > Aggression is *very* different from an ability to kill - the Prime Barrier only prevents > TP from killing - we have no reason to suppose it makes them any less violent in > any other way. The TP seem reasonably opposed to violence - but I think that is > mostly a choice in the same way we all have that choice. Not a prime barrier issue. > > John spanks Emily - a violent act, albeit a minor one. He uses force on one of the > neo-Nazis in Hitler's Last Secret - the TP can do violence - they avoid it, but being > unable to kill is not the same as being non-violent. > > > Finally, being a TP doesn't make you more than human; they're be subject > > to the same mental strains, conditions, and illnesses as Saps. > > Actually, I think being a TP does make you more than human - Homo superior - it's > a real thing in the TP universe. I would certainly suspect they can get most or all of > the diseases Homo sapiens can - but the difference is real. > > That'll have to do for now - it's great to see the list so active I haven't got time to > reply to everything at once. (-8 > > > Yours Without Wax, Dreadnought > Shaun Hately |webpage: http://www.alphalink.com.au/~drednort/thelab.html > (ISTJ) |email: drednort@alphalink.com.au | ICQ: 6898200 > "You know the very powerful and the very stupid have one thing in > common. They don't alter their views to fit the facts. They alter > the facts to fit the views. Which can be uncomfortable if you happen > to be one of the facts that need altering." The Doctor - Doctor Who: > The Face of Evil | Where am I: Frankston, Victoria, Australia > > > ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: "jeffl1965" Subject: Re: TPDIS: TPs and the Ability to Kill Date: 12 Nov 2002 14:26:03 -0600 This makes sense. I think that some deaths cant be avoided, as much as none of us would've wanted *any* person to die, but it is bound to happen. :P Jeff ----- Original Message ----- Sent: Tuesday, November 12, 2002 9:18 AM > > Remember the reason they put the world to sleep! It was to keep them > from getting murderously angry and killing each other for no reason > other than they had the wrong color badges on. > > This means that: > > The pilot and co-pilot would fight and the plane would crash as all the > passengers fought. > > The angry doctor would pull the life support system on the patient as > the patient tried to grab a scalpel and murder the doctor. > > No matter what, people were going to die. This was the most HUMANE way > to solve the problem. Imagine what would have happened if they hadn't > done it their way. > > > > > > > Well if you decided to put all the doctors in the world to sleep or anyone > > > with any medical expierence, and patients died, isn't that murder? Same > > > thing. Or if you decided to take all electric power away from every hospital > > > in the world. Same thing. > > Introducing NetZero Long Distance 1st month Free! Sign up today at: www.netzerolongdistance.com ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: Kathryn Andersen Subject: Re: TPDIS: TPs and the Ability to Kill Date: 13 Nov 2002 07:56:05 +1100 Okay, my 5c worth.... I can't find the post I'm wanting to reply to, so I'll just ramble on... A couple of times in this discussion, it's been mentioned that the no-kill rule is counter-evolutionary; that if they can't kill to defend themselves, then obviously they must be an evolutionary dead-end. Sorry, but that just demonstrates that the posters don't understand evolution. But I guess the confusion arises due to that little word "fittest" in "Survival of the fittest." People usually think of "fittest" to mean "strongest/most muscly" but in this context it's "fit" more as in "gee, that dress is a good fit". Survival of the most well-adapted. Success, in evolutionary terms, lies in living long enough to have offspring, and have those offspring survive. That's all. Success doesn't mean conquering the world and being visibly seen to dominate it. People are thinking in too much of a human-centric manner here. Yes, humans have succeeded because they were more able to kill other creatures, as well as looking after themselves and their offspring so as to continue the line. But killing is not the only evolutionary strategy. Otherwise every creature on the planet would be a carnivore, and they aren't. Carnivores go for "kill or be killed" (another one of those phrases which people have probably taken on board without thinking much about) but herbivores tend to go for "run away", "hide" and "breed a lot". Guess what? The Tomorrow People have got the most magnificent "run away" ability ever known in the universe -- it's called teleportation. You could also argue that they have a good "hide" mechanism: because they *don't* have any outward physical differences to homo sapiens, they hide among humanity. Or they could, if they didn't draw attention to themselves. They don't appear to be doing much "breeding" though. (impudent grin) Kathryn Andersen -=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=- "Normally when somebody dies, people stand up. They were all sitting down." -- Nathan Spring (Star Cops: In Warm Blood) -- _--_|\ | Kathryn Andersen / \ | \_.--.*/ | GenFicCrit mailing list v | ------------| Melbourne -> Victoria -> Australia -> Southern Hemisphere Maranatha! | -> Earth -> Sol -> Milky Way Galaxy -> Universe ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: "jeffl1965" Subject: Re: TPDIS: TPs and the Ability to Kill Date: 12 Nov 2002 15:14:07 -0600 ----- Original Message ----- Sent: Tuesday, November 12, 2002 12:26 PM Again, I'm combining messages. Saves mailbox clutter. And now for something completely different: Jeff wrote: > Let's not forget that Andrew and the TP did have that illusion battle > with > the soldiers, and they did ''kill'' each other, and yet nobody seemed > bothered by it. Andrew even smikred a bit, iirc. I think this would probably fall under the same category as video games. They're not real-- Mike, Andrew, and John all know they're not real. So what's the harm? It's just a game. No harm. I was implying that they didnt accept it as killing, therefore they didnt react, so if they dont accept an act as murder, then a TP *could* theoretically *not* have the PB kick in, as Tyso shows, correct? > I agree. They didnt change outwardly, which is usually a sign of > evolution as I understand it. Not necessarily. The original difference between horses and donkeys were parts of chromosomes breaking off and attaching themselves to other chromosomes. This why they can still mate to produce mules, but the mules are sterile because the chromosomes don't line up properly during egg/sperm formation so the offspring can't get one full set. This prevented them from mating successfully with each other (the line dies out after one generation) and any physical differences arose subsequently to these genetic differences. Agreed. The TP dont show any outward differences that we're aware of, but if it were merely a genetic thing, ala Village of the Damned/Children of the Damned, then by following your statement the TP could in effect, be albino dwarfs? *IF* they were mere genetic mutations, not slightly evolved. By comparison, we're more evolved as compared to our ancestors from 1000 years ago, yet we look the same. Our mental processes are somewhat different. Maybe not as evloved physically, but at least genetically or chemically, correct? We as a whole are more intelligent, even if we dont show it, than they were, yet we're still human. Anyway, the TP are different, but its not as obvious as Horses and Mules, which is what I meant. They dont really look that different, yet they are. How/why? Was John told a line of rubbish, to contain any delusions of granduer that he or others might have, by trying to make them feel superior, yet be told that they cant do this and that or else they die? Just curious. > Intresting. This makes sense, and would also allow for future TP to > kill, > since it would be based upon their personal beliefs about death. If its > necessary, they could kill to save themselves. Ergo if Tp was from the > Middle-East, he/she grew up with death, and killing is normal for them, > so > to kill an enemy would have no ill effects on them, correct? I think so. OK, there's a big fat gaping hole in the "Tyso's used to killing animals" theory. I doubt a TP growing up in the Middle-East with those kinds of behavior patterns would break out-- much like Tricia with the SIS. This might also have to do with why no one thought Major Turner would be a TP-- she maybe had done too much to ever break out, but Tricia for some reason, hadn't. My $.02 at any rate. Well, I see your point, and I do agree. But if one did breakout, say before he(if its a boy) joins the PLO or something, would his predilection for violence halt his development into a full TP, or would he merely die from having the thoughts of of killing? I just cant imagine the pain that the TP would experince with so many deaths occuring from that region. They would still hear their death cries from the potentials who died, or would they? Jeff Introducing NetZero Long Distance 1st month Free! Sign up today at: www.netzerolongdistance.com ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: "jeffl1965" Subject: Re: TPDIS: TPs and the Ability to Kill Date: 12 Nov 2002 15:16:34 -0600 Yes, and I can easily see Megabyte wanting to do the 007 bit, with Kevin being dragged along. ;) Jeff ----- Original Message ----- Sent: Monday, November 11, 2002 1:47 PM > I always thought (warning - another theory coming on) that the ability to > teleport/jaunt (I prefer teleport as a NS fan) was what prevented them from > killing. Adam said as much when trying to explain it to Kevin in the origin > story. "Think about it, we're telepathic, we can teleport. We could get guns > easily." and to Lisa "Imagine what they could do with us in their wars and > spying and stuff." > > Regards, > > Carol > > ----- Original Message ----- > From: "ade" > To: > Sent: Monday, November 11, 2002 7:19 PM > Subject: Re: TPDIS: TPs and the Ability to Kill > > > > BUT....in the same way that on Highlander, immortals can tell other > > possible immortals, the TP can tell possible TPs. We know this from > > "Slaves". That is how they found Stephen in the first place. > > > > So if you are born to be a TP then the inate "non-kill" instinct should > > be there. > > > > > > > > Doctor TOC wrote: > > > > > > ade wrote: > > > > If Patricia particpated in actions that lead to deaths, would that be > > > > the same thing? We only knew her before she officially broke out but > she > > > > was still a telepath in every sense of the word. > > > > > > I think we need to be careful with definitions here. Being a teleptah > > > and having telepathic powers are not the same thing as being a TP. > > > Telepathy is a very clearly defined parapsychological term, and only > > > deals with mind to mind communication, not PK, teleportation, or any of > > > the other TP powers. Both the OS series and books stated that some saps > > > had telepathic abilities, so it's possible to be a telepath yet not a > > > TP. Maybe telepaths are all potential TPs, maybe only a few have the > > > potential to break out. Regardless, I think only full TPs have the > > > "no-killing" instinct. > > > > > > I've been thinking about the basis for this instinct for non-violence, > > > and the concept of the TPs as the next stage of human evolution. A few > > > fans have pointed out in various articles and fan fics that being unable > > > to use lethal force to defend yourself is counter evolutionary; if you > > > believe in evolution (I know some don't, and I can respect that), it > > > bestows advantages on members of a species that allow them to survive > > > and propagate. Organisms with counter evolutionary adaptations quickly > > > die out. > > > > > > I think that the TP's are more than just a stage of genetic evolution, > > > but a stage of *societal* evolution as well. Look at their group > > > dynamic. They're individuals, and they have differing opinions, but they > > > nearly always pull together. And yet when they're beyond a certain range > > > from each other (like being at the Trig), they pretty much forget about > > > each other. My theory is that operating on the same telepathic frequency > > > creates a sense of unity amongst them, an evolutionary adaptation that > > > naturally makes them form a support group that counteracts their > > > inability to use violence, quite literally forming strength in numbers, > > > but that this effect has a relatively limited range, and that once > > > beyond it the TPs natural individuality re-emerges. With greater > > > numbers, this effect would create a sort of sense of brotherhood, but > > > also creating a natural divide between homo superior and homo sapiens, > > > guaranteeing that the genetic purity of homo superior would remain > > > intact and increasing the speed at which they would supplant the saps. > > > > > > I think that their telepathic awareness of living minds is the basis for > > > the TPs inability to use violence. All life generates an > > > electro-magnetic field, so it's not too much of a stretch to suggest > > > that anything with a brain generates a similar telepathic field. This > > > telepathic background noise is a continual reminder on a fundamental > > > level that all living things are connected. For most TPs, this awareness > > > is an integral part of them, allowing them to empathise with any living > > > creature, no matter what it is or what it's about to do, resulting in a > > > sort of paralysing horror at the thought of doing anything any harm. > > > Tyso, on the other hand, grew up knowing that everything is connected, > > > but also being aware that death is a part of life, so the empathy caused > > > by his telepathic powers doesn't slow him down at all. > > > > > > Stephen's brainwashing raises some interesting questions. Normally, > > > hypnosis and other simple mind control techniques can't make someone do > > > something that they wouldn't choose to do. However, CIA techniques > > > developed during the MK-ULTRA program *can*, by working intensively to > > > re-write the way the subject views the world. For example, a subject > > > might have a highly developed moral sense that prevents them from > > > killing humans, but he can be convinced that a target isn't a human > > > being and therefore must be killed. Many serial killers function by not > > > considering the people they kill as "real", so it's a possibility that > > > that's the route the Sorsons took with Stephen, forcing him to view > > > reality through a filter that reduced the people he killed to the status > > > of target dummies. > > > > > > Doctor TOC > > > -- > > > The Reverend Doctor "The Other Chris" > > > Secret Elf, Jive Talkin' Choirboy, God of Cowboy Spurs > > > ICQ # 4814586 > > > Daleks! 3D - http://users.rcn.com/otherchris/ > > > Time War RPG - http://jump.to/TimeWar > > > alt.tv.sevendays FAQ - http://welcome.to/7-Days > > > The TOC Files - http://members.fortunecity.com/toc > > > > > > > Introducing NetZero Long Distance 1st month Free! Sign up today at: www.netzerolongdistance.com ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: "jeffl1965" Subject: Re: TPDIS: TPs and the Ability to Kill Date: 12 Nov 2002 15:32:41 -0600 Ah, I like that analogy. Might be closer to the truth as well. Timus et al, did consider the Human race to be too childish and war-like, iirc. That's why it was a closed planet. I think they did feel that the TP would be like kids in a candy store otherwise, especially considering that they *are* kids. ;) Jeff ----- Original Message ----- Sent: Tuesday, November 12, 2002 2:15 PM > Personally I think the PB was something dreamt up by the (in my opinion PIN > BUNDY - Pain In Neck But Unfortunately Not Dead Yet) Galactic Trig, and > passed on to John in a way which prevented him from questioning it. > > Regards, > > Carol > ----- Original Message ----- > From: "jeffl1965" > To: > Sent: Tuesday, November 12, 2002 5:37 PM > Subject: Re: TPDIS: TPs and the Ability to Kill > > > > > > ----- Original Message ----- > > From: "ade" > > To: > > Sent: Monday, November 11, 2002 11:57 AM > > Subject: Re: TPDIS: TPs and the Ability to Kill > > > > > > > > > > If Patricia particpated in actions that lead to deaths, would that be > > > the same thing? We only knew her before she officially broke out but she > > > was still a telepath in every sense of the word. > > > > > > > > Agreed. I suppose the degree of telepathic developement could be argued > > as to the level of reaction that the person would have, but I also think > > that it is a lack of desire to kill as much as a genetic thing, I suppose. > > Let's not forget that Andrew and the TP did have that illusion battle > with > > the soldiers, and they did ''kill'' each other, and yet nobody seemed > > bothered by it. Andrew even smikred a bit, iirc. Is the thought of killing > > just as strong as the actual act? Both actions occur in the brain, since > you > > have to have that violent thought before you actually commit the act, > right? > > Would the Prime Barrier kick in before a TP actually commited the act or > > not? > > I have a character that wants to kill his father, who is abusive to > him. > > He might not ever get the chance to do so, but he desires it with ever > fiber > > of his being, and he wants to get the chance whenever they meet. However, > > his father always seems to get the upperhand at some point, and terrorizes > > him, so whatever bravado he had, fades after a few blows of the fist. The > > Prime Barrier, in whatever form it is, prevents him from acting on his > > desires, so far. But is the PB real, or a Urban Legend created by John? > > > > Jeff > > > > --------------------------------------------- > > Introducing NetZero Long Distance > > 1st month Free! > > Sign up today at: www.netzerolongdistance.com > > > > > > > Introducing NetZero Long Distance 1st month Free! Sign up today at: www.netzerolongdistance.com ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: Doctor TOC Subject: TPDIS: Who Am I? Date: 12 Nov 2002 16:55:05 -0500 Well, now I've made a nuisance of myself, I suppose I should do the introduction bit. I'm Chris Halliday, AKA Doctor TOC (actually Reverend Doctor, but that's just too long). I'm a Brit, currently living in Boston, USA, where I've been based since 1997. I'm happily married to a wonderful woman who seems determined not to see my bad points, with three cats, and I'm a full-time writer/game designer with my own gaming company, Argent Games (named after one of the cats). Currently I'm working on TIME WAR, a roleplaying game of time travel and parallel universes, in which telepathic agents of the Time Guard do battle to preserve the integrity of history from those who would jeopardise it for their own gain. I'm aiming for a first quarter release for the book, if I can pull my finger out and get it finished. On Sundays, I prise myself out of my hermit shell and work at Boston's premier science fiction and fantasy book store, Pandemonium Books & Games, where I get to talk to real live human beings, play cool music, and buy books at a whopping discount. Oh, and they pay me too :-) Like so many British kids in the 70's, I remember racing home to watch The Tomorrow People and being both thrilled and chilled as the deliciously creepy theme tune rolled out of the speakers of our distinctly clunky black and white TV. Though my heart always belonged to Doctor Who, deep down I always knew there was no way that police box was going to materialize with an invitation to travel through time and space. But every kid watching *knew* for certain that they had the potential to be a Tomorrow Person, and so our playground games were dominate by adventures in the Lab (the climbing frame) and by jumping around with our hands on our belt buckles, pretending to be jaunting. Looking back, it's no great surprise to me to see just how much The Tomorrow People has informed my own work, shaping a lifelong fascination with psi phenomena, quantum physics, time travel, cosmology and evolutionary biology. That's it really. Thanks for the great welcome and the challenging and stimulating discussion. Best, Chris -- The Reverend Doctor "The Other Chris" Secret Elf, Jive Talkin' Choirboy, God of Cowboy Spurs ICQ # 4814586 Daleks! 3D - http://users.rcn.com/otherchris/ Time War RPG - http://jump.to/TimeWar alt.tv.sevendays FAQ - http://welcome.to/7-Days The TOC Files - http://members.fortunecity.com/toc ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: Doctor TOC Subject: Re: TPDIS: TPs and the Ability to Kill Date: 12 Nov 2002 17:05:29 -0500 Kathryn Andersen wrote: > Okay, my 5c worth.... > I can't find the post I'm wanting to reply to, so I'll just ramble on... > > A couple of times in this discussion, it's been mentioned that the > no-kill rule is counter-evolutionary; that if they can't kill to defend > themselves, then obviously they must be an evolutionary dead-end. Sorry Kathryn, but no-one stated that being unable to kill made the TPs a doomed species, just that the no-kill trait _by_itself_ was counter-evolutionary. Maybe I should have been clearer, in which case I apologise. As you say, evolution isn't about being the strongest, or the fastest, it's about being the most adaptable. Humans, for example, are so successful because they can adapt to situations and environments that other species cannot. Our minds are the ultimate adaptation, allowing us to formulate complex responses to new threat situations and, in recent centuries, alter the environment we find ourselves in to suit our needs. Taken alone, not being able to kill *is* a counter-evolutionary trait - it reduces the TPs adaptability and restricts their options in high risk situations. It's such a handicap that it requires that they have the ultimate get-out clause - teleportation - to off-set the disadvantage it creates. It doesn't make them an evolutionary dead-end, and I don't think anyone has suggested that they are. > Success, in evolutionary terms, lies in living long enough to have > offspring, and have those offspring survive. That's all. Precisely my point. Any adaptation that reduces an organisms chances of propagating its genes is counter-evolutionary. The TPs may have a vast array of additional abilities that help them get around this flaw and give them a tremendous advantages, but this one trait serves no useful purpose - that we know about - and puts them at risk (as we've seen a number of times in the series). Perhaps there's a hidden purpose that is served by the trait, one which actually serves the species rather than put it at risk? Personally, I'm glad they're not as violent as humans; as a child, it always made me feel good about the future that mankind might grow out of being destructive. However, in purely evolutionary terms, it's a hinderance. I always thought it was a little odd that the Federation would contact the TPs and basically say "Right, you're the first of a new species of humanity, and you need to make sure your species thrives and multiplies, so we're going to take the handful of you that exists and put you in lots of high risk situations and give you the responsibility of protecting your world from intergalactic crises..." I mean, what genius came up with that idea? Doctor TOC -- The Reverend Doctor "The Other Chris" Secret Elf, Jive Talkin' Choirboy, God of Cowboy Spurs ICQ # 4814586 Daleks! 3D - http://users.rcn.com/otherchris/ Time War RPG - http://jump.to/TimeWar alt.tv.sevendays FAQ - http://welcome.to/7-Days The TOC Files - http://members.fortunecity.com/toc ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: Doctor TOC Subject: Re: TPDIS: TPs and the Ability to Kill Date: 12 Nov 2002 17:14:50 -0500 jeffl1965 wrote: > >>Could they kill TIM? > > I think so. In one episode TIM was turned off, iirc, or at least couldnt > be communicated with. To have that switch could prove that if he went bad > for whatever reason, that they could ''kill'' him to protect themselves. > After all, if TIM turned evil, where could they hide from him? How could > they stun him from a distance? TIM can reach out to them anywhere, and a > psionic blast would be all he had to do, if he didnt kill them during a > jaunt. It would be intresting to see how they could get close enough to him > to turn him off if such a thing happened. Ah, this is an interesting idea. What *would* they do if TIM was "turned" somehow? I'm assuming that other TIM-type biotronic computers exist. Are all of them so ethical? It'd make an interesting story. There was a really good Star Trek: TNG story, in which Wesley Crusher has to out think the mind-controlled crew of the Enterprise, and in doing so gets to show just what he's really capable of. Having a story that puts TIM through his paces in a similar sort of way would be a lot of fun. Hmmmm. How about if the Federation had implanted a fail-safe program in TIM, to be triggered if the TP's were evolving in the wrong way, exhibiting humanities warlike traits; a program designed to protect the rest of the galaxy against the possible rise of aggressive beings with TP abilities? Then something happened to activate that hidden program... I like the sound of that one :-) Doctor TOC -- The Reverend Doctor "The Other Chris" Secret Elf, Jive Talkin' Choirboy, God of Cowboy Spurs ICQ # 4814586 Daleks! 3D - http://users.rcn.com/otherchris/ Time War RPG - http://jump.to/TimeWar alt.tv.sevendays FAQ - http://welcome.to/7-Days The TOC Files - http://members.fortunecity.com/toc ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: Doctor TOC Subject: Re: TPDIS: TPs and the Ability to Kill Date: 12 Nov 2002 17:23:18 -0500 jeffl1965 wrote: > Indeed. Peter could be Super-TP, if you will. They would have to have > better developed powers, imho, and would most likely *need* to be able > to kill in order to correct any errors that they find made by illegal > visitors to the TimeStream. Imagine what would happen if The Master > gained control over the TimeLanes. They'd have to kill him him. He'd > certainly kill them off, and a stungun just wouldnt do it. I'm not sure this is true. In this regard I agree with Kathryn, in that there are other ways to deal with a persistant menace than just kill it. For instance, depending on the range of future TP abilities, they could rewire someone's mind to remove the instinct for violence. They could wipe someone's personality (arguably killing them) and implant a brand new one. They could imprison someone inside a contructed reality in their own mind. Look what they eventaully did to Jedekiah. There's lots of different ways of dealing with someone that don't involve doing them in. I prefer to think that, despite the no-kill rule being a handicap, that rather than getting rid of it or bypassing it, that future TPs develop more creative ways of using their powers so that it is no longer a hindrance. Doctor TOC -- The Reverend Doctor "The Other Chris" Secret Elf, Jive Talkin' Choirboy, God of Cowboy Spurs ICQ # 4814586 Daleks! 3D - http://users.rcn.com/otherchris/ Time War RPG - http://jump.to/TimeWar alt.tv.sevendays FAQ - http://welcome.to/7-Days The TOC Files - http://members.fortunecity.com/toc ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: Doctor TOC Subject: Re: TPDIS: TPs and the Ability to Kill Date: 12 Nov 2002 17:33:11 -0500 David Steinberg wrote: > Well I think it's time for me to repost my theory. My reason for the > prime barrier is that every living creature - upon being killed - > emits a cry demanding that the killer stop. Any telepath can hear the > cry from a human and it's powerful enough for force her to stop. > That's why killing prevents people from breaking out. You're forced > to cut off your telepathic abilities to do that. If this theory is > true, the stronger your abilities, the less you can kill. The best > telepath ever probably couldn't step on ants. A nice theory, David. However, it's one that almost requires a TP to kill someone - or something - before they experience the "death cry", otherwise they wouldn't know about it. Also, wouldn't the cry be "audible" even if the TP wasn't the killer? It'd make it close to impossible for them to tolerate any sort of violent death, and yet we've seen them be unaffected when they're not doing the killing directly. The death cry itself is a neat idea, though. I *do* like the idea that blocking yourself off from the harm you're causing others necessitates blocking your psi abilities and thus supresses break-out. I'm going to steal that for my own theory :-) > Anyway, Jedikiah wouldn't have this instinct, so it wouldn't be an > issue. Hmmmm. My answer to that is that, if he didn't have it before, he does now, having being made human. Ironic really, in that the TPs could probably have done him in before, but they can't now. Hopefully he won't be making a comeback... Doctor TOC -- The Reverend Doctor "The Other Chris" Secret Elf, Jive Talkin' Choirboy, God of Cowboy Spurs ICQ # 4814586 Daleks! 3D - http://users.rcn.com/otherchris/ Time War RPG - http://jump.to/TimeWar alt.tv.sevendays FAQ - http://welcome.to/7-Days The TOC Files - http://members.fortunecity.com/toc ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: alpropes Subject: Re: TPDIS: TPs and the Ability to Kill Date: 12 Nov 2002 16:37:34 -0600 (CST) Ohhh! I forgot all about that! That solidifies the Jedikiah as sentient theory: why bother to punish a robot that's merely malfunctioning? (answer: Microsoft is still around, and Jedikiah, aka Microsoft Bob version 3.1 is experiencing the blue screen of death) Aaron --- Aaron Lee Propes The Tomorrow People Audio Reviews - http://www2.bitstream.net/~alpropes/tp > > Anyway, Jedikiah wouldn't have this instinct, so it wouldn't be an > > issue. > > Hmmmm. My answer to that is that, if he didn't have it before, he does > now, having being made human. Ironic really, in that the TPs could > probably have done him in before, but they can't now. Hopefully he won't > be making a comeback... > > Doctor TOC > -- > The Reverend Doctor "The Other Chris" > Secret Elf, Jive Talkin' Choirboy, God of Cowboy Spurs > ICQ # 4814586 > Daleks! 3D - http://users.rcn.com/otherchris/ > Time War RPG - http://jump.to/TimeWar > alt.tv.sevendays FAQ - http://welcome.to/7-Days > The TOC Files - http://members.fortunecity.com/toc > > > ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: Doctor TOC Subject: TPDIS: Costuming Query Date: 12 Nov 2002 17:45:48 -0500 In a bid to demonstrate that I'm not just interested in death, I was wondering if anyone out there has built their own jaunting belt (forget the bands - too gaudy), as I was interested in constructing my own. I've not ventured into SF costuming before, being the sort of man whose encounters with needle and thread have either been the result of a visit to the hospital, or rapidly precipitate a visit to the hospital... but I figure I might be able to do something like this without over-taxing my health insurance. So, does anyone have any hints, tips or thoughts on how to construct a classic jaunting belt prop? Doctor TOC -- The Reverend Doctor "The Other Chris" Secret Elf, Jive Talkin' Choirboy, God of Cowboy Spurs ICQ # 4814586 Daleks! 3D - http://users.rcn.com/otherchris/ Time War RPG - http://jump.to/TimeWar alt.tv.sevendays FAQ - http://welcome.to/7-Days The TOC Files - http://members.fortunecity.com/toc ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: David Steinberg Subject: Re: TPDIS: TPs and the Ability to Kill Date: 12 Nov 2002 15:14:18 -0800 (PST) On Tue, 12 Nov 2002, Doctor TOC wrote: > A nice theory, David. However, it's one that almost requires a TP to > kill someone - or something - before they experience the "death cry", > otherwise they wouldn't know about it. Well I'm thinking of it as a self defense mechanism that the person projects right before they die that stays the hand of the person who is about to kill. A sub-audible incredibly powerful "Don't kill me!" If you make it directional too, then that answers your point below. Also, wouldn't the cry be > "audible" even if the TP wasn't the killer? It'd make it close to > impossible for them to tolerate any sort of violent death, and yet we've > seen them be unaffected when they're not doing the killing directly. The > death cry itself is a neat idea, though. -David "ZZYZX" Steinberg www.ihoz.com "very strange raving egomaniac" ********************************************************************** * "I'm having to educate my new *"I can't believe I'm a junior and a* * English friend I met at Burning* film major, when all I really * * Man about Underoos. Don't they* wanted in this life was to marry a* * get anything cool over there?" * lobsterman and cook fish." * * -J. Elizabeth Smith * -a letter from Christie Searing * ********************************************************************** ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: "Shaun Hately" Subject: Re: TPDIS: TPs and the Ability to Kill Date: 13 Nov 2002 11:08:56 +1100 On 12 Nov 2002 at 19:58, Carol Bevis wrote: > If they cannot kill sentient life, shouldn't there be some kind of test we > can use to define sentient life? > > I would suggest a variation on the Azimov model: > > 1. Survival > 2. Do not kill other sentient beings > 3. The capacity for self-saccrifice for others (the most important) > > Any comments or other ideas for tests? The problem is - it seems to me that any test we come up with is fundamentally irrelevant - what is relevant is how the TP define sentience, and having defined it, how they detect/identify it - especially seeing they have an advantage not shared with most of humanity, in that it's possible there might be someway they can telepathically identify sentience. I certainly wouldn't use the model you've given - because by that definition it seems to me Homo sapiens isn't sentient (humans do kill other humans), and it certainly seems that the Prime Barrier does apply. But the problem is, I'm not sure what model would work - defining sentience is something that a large number of scientists/philosophers/ethicists have struggled with because it's not easy. I really wonder if it does to an extent come down to what the individual thinks - individual ideas on sentience. I know I can (roughly) define what I consider sentience to be but I also know a lot of people disagree with me. (1) Must be (at least partly) a product of a genuine evolutionary process (this is in my definition, because *I* consider that to be the primary determinant of whether something is alive or not, and I believe something must be alive to be sentient). This would make it *very* unlikely IMHO, that a machine could ever be sentient. (2) Must be self aware in the sense that it knows it exists - and is aware that it did not always exist, and may (will?) not always exist. That's *my* fundamental definition of sentience. It is a personal one, but I wonder if the personal definitions might not be what is actually important. This would explain why Tyso can kill animals far more easily than the others might (if that is so) because he may have a firmer idea of what he considers to be sentient than others do. Yours Without Wax, Dreadnought Shaun Hately |webpage: http://www.alphalink.com.au/~drednort/thelab.html (ISTJ) |email: drednort@alphalink.com.au | ICQ: 6898200 "You know the very powerful and the very stupid have one thing in common. They don't alter their views to fit the facts. They alter the facts to fit the views. Which can be uncomfortable if you happen to be one of the facts that need altering." The Doctor - Doctor Who: The Face of Evil | Where am I: Frankston, Victoria, Australia ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: "Shaun Hately" Subject: Re: TPDIS: TPs and the Ability to Kill Date: 13 Nov 2002 11:49:18 +1100 On 12 Nov 2002 at 20:11, Carol Bevis wrote: > I agree with you calling TPs Homo Novus is better than Superior - take my > opinion of OS for example. They seem unable to make the most basic > connections - or is it that they saw teenagers at the time as > dumb/thick/unintelligent (take your pick)? I reckon that the kids who > originally watched it first time round would have made the connections > faster than the TPs themselves. It doesn't say much for their supposed > higher intelligence, does it? Well, I dislike Homo novis because I can't get away from the 'source' of that name - IIRC, the person who referred to the TP as Homo novus was Rabowski - every other time we heard a taxonomic term used, it was Homo superior. (Jump in and correct me if I am wrong - I am about to embark on a project on watching every episode again to refresh my memory, because I finding it harder to recall these details). IMHO, Rabowski is a bigot when it comes to TP - and I will not accept a term used by a bigot to describe a person, over the terms those people use to self describe. Total speculation on my part, but my impression has always been that Rabowski (or others like him) made up the 'Homo novus' term as their way of avoiding describing the TP as Homo superior - Rabowski seems *very* hung up on history and tradition - so to him, Novus/new would have been a term of contempt. It seems to me 'Homo novus' might well consitute Rabowskis 25th century version of a racial slur - we have no reason to assume that the term has *any* validity. Of course, I don't think there is any canonical reason not to - but it has always seemed that way to me. As for higher intelligence - it can take many forms. And a group may be highly intelligent as a large group without it being that obvious in individuals or a small group. I'm going to use IQ here as an example - I realise some people don't like it, don't agree with it, etc - for the purposes of what I am describing though - let's just assume it works. Assumption - Homo sapiens average IQ is 100 with a standard deviation of 16 (which are the theoretical numbers used on some tests). Assumption - on the same scale, TPs have an average IQ of 115 (considered 'bright' by normal standards) with a SD of 16. That would make TP - on average - more intelligent than saps. It'd make an 'average' TP intellectually equivalent to a 'bright' sap. *But* at the same time, a significant minority of saps would be 'smarter' than the average Tomorrow Person - and a significant minority of TP would be 'dumber' than the average sap (around 16% or so in both cases) The same would apply across the board - and if the TPs intellectual talents are limited to specific areas, the differences would be even less noticeable in individuals or small groups. And when you consider that the show tendeded to appeal to reasonably intelligent kids, it's perfectly possible a lot of those watching were as smart as the TP - because the audience was a subset of the Homo sapiens population - the TP were an entire set of theirs. > I must also admit, having seen the first 5 stories of OS now, that I'm STILL > a NS fan. The only story that made me thing I could be an OS fan was The > Blue and The Green, but A Rift in Time has seriously disappointed me on that > front. > > NS seems to give the main characters some credit for having the ability to > make connections that is sorely lacking in OS. However, I *am* willing to be > convinced. Interesting - to me the NS characters seem pretty much normal kids with nothing except their special powers - while the OS characters do seem more intelligent than average to me. Yours Without Wax, Dreadnought Shaun Hately |webpage: http://www.alphalink.com.au/~drednort/thelab.html (ISTJ) |email: drednort@alphalink.com.au | ICQ: 6898200 "You know the very powerful and the very stupid have one thing in common. They don't alter their views to fit the facts. They alter the facts to fit the views. Which can be uncomfortable if you happen to be one of the facts that need altering." The Doctor - Doctor Who: The Face of Evil | Where am I: Frankston, Victoria, Australia ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: KVDelano@aol.com Subject: Re: TPDIS: TPs and the Ability to Kill Date: 12 Nov 2002 20:34:01 EST --part1_161.1702368a.2b030609_boundary Content-Type: text/plain; charset="US-ASCII" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit In a message dated 11/12/2002 5:38:16 PM Eastern Standard Time, alpropes@bitstream.net writes: > > > Ohhh! I forgot all about that! That solidifies the Jedikiah as sentient > theory: why bother to punish a robot that's merely > malfunctioning? (answer: Microsoft is still around, and Jedikiah, aka > Microsoft Bob version 3.1 is experiencing the blue screen of death) > > Aaron > > LOL --part1_161.1702368a.2b030609_boundary Content-Type: text/html; charset="US-ASCII" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit In a message dated 11/12/2002 5:38:16 PM Eastern Standard Time, alpropes@bitstream.net writes:



Ohhh! I forgot all about that! That solidifies the Jedikiah as sentient
theory: why bother to punish a robot that's merely
malfunctioning? (answer: Microsoft is still around, and Jedikiah, aka
Microsoft Bob version 3.1 is experiencing the blue screen of death)

Aaron


LOL --part1_161.1702368a.2b030609_boundary-- ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: "Kristy Fahrenwald" Subject: Re: TPDIS: TPs and the Ability to Kill Date: 12 Nov 2002 20:33:07 -0600 >If we take the events of the show on face value, no. How could they? >How could they POSSIBLY find out where every person on the face of the >Earth is one second prior to the second they enacted the plan? And they had so little time. They were collecting parts for the giant stun guns and such. It just seems to me that it was a matter of someone dies no matter what... millions of humans or thousands of the aliens. They may have been able to cut down the number, but I don't think they could have stopped every person in a dangerous place to be sleeping. Of course we don't see too much of the collecting process... I suppose one of them could have at least been on shut down the airports detail... otherwise, don't you *still* have at least thousands dying? (BTW: I remember the ticket I got once when I fell asleep at the wheel... the officer marked it "Driving to fast for conditions"... always made me wonder what the safe speed was for driving while asleep.) Kristy _________________________________________________________________ Tired of spam? Get advanced junk mail protection with MSN 8. http://join.msn.com/?page=features/junkmail ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: KVDelano@aol.com Subject: Re: TPDIS: TPs and the Ability to Kill Date: 12 Nov 2002 22:02:34 EST --part1_12e.1af6f96a.2b031aca_boundary Content-Type: text/plain; charset="US-ASCII" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit In a message dated 11/12/2002 9:33:31 PM Eastern Standard Time, kristyfah@hotmail.com writes: > (BTW: I remember the ticket I got once when I fell asleep at the wheel... > the officer marked it "Driving to fast for conditions"... always made me > wonder what the safe speed was for driving while asleep.) LOL --part1_12e.1af6f96a.2b031aca_boundary Content-Type: text/html; charset="US-ASCII" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit In a message dated 11/12/2002 9:33:31 PM Eastern Standard Time, kristyfah@hotmail.com writes:

(BTW: I remember the ticket I got once when I fell asleep at the wheel...
the officer marked it "Driving to fast for conditions"... always made me
wonder what the safe speed was for driving while asleep.)


LOL --part1_12e.1af6f96a.2b031aca_boundary-- ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: "jeffl1965" Subject: Re: TPDIS: TPs and the Ability to Kill Date: 12 Nov 2002 20:31:55 -0600 ----- Original Message ----- Sent: Tuesday, November 12, 2002 4:14 PM > jeffl1965 wrote: > > > >>Could they kill TIM? > > > > I think so. In one episode TIM was turned off, iirc, or at least couldnt > > be communicated with. To have that switch could prove that if he went bad > > for whatever reason, that they could ''kill'' him to protect themselves. > > After all, if TIM turned evil, where could they hide from him? How could > > they stun him from a distance? TIM can reach out to them anywhere, and a > > psionic blast would be all he had to do, if he didnt kill them during a > > jaunt. It would be intresting to see how they could get close enough to him > > to turn him off if such a thing happened. > > Ah, this is an interesting idea. What *would* they do if TIM was > "turned" somehow? I'm assuming that other TIM-type biotronic computers > exist. Are all of them so ethical? It'd make an interesting story. > Well, iirc, there are others. The TRIG is full of 'em. :) Personally, I think that they could, and that it would be possible, albeit *difficult* to turn TIM, but it could be done. IMHO, TIM evolves and grows like a child. If you'll recall, in the earlier serials, TIM was more robotic, which I like better. It was just cooler, imho, when he responded with ''Affirmative'' and ''Aknowledged''. :) I just wouldnt want TIM to be like the computer on Red Dwarf, which I loved, btw. I also prefer that TIM has limits, rather than being omnipotent as some have felt. True, he is in many ways, but I just dont like the idea of him being intrusive. > There was a really good Star Trek: TNG story, in which Wesley Crusher > has to out think the mind-controlled crew of the Enterprise, and in > doing so gets to show just what he's really capable of. Having a story > that puts TIM through his paces in a similar sort of way would be a lot > of fun. > Indeed. I liked that episode. I'm saddened that Wes was cut out of the final edit of the new film after all the publicity about his return. :P I agree. I'd love to see TIM have to really show his stuff in a story, or even a new tv mini-series. ;) > Hmmmm. How about if the Federation had implanted a fail-safe program in > TIM, to be triggered if the TP's were evolving in the wrong way, > exhibiting humanities warlike traits; a program designed to protect the > rest of the galaxy against the possible rise of aggressive beings with > TP abilities? Then something happened to activate that hidden program... > Dunno, but one would presume that they did. :) Jeff Introducing NetZero Long Distance 1st month Free! Sign up today at: www.netzerolongdistance.com ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: "jeffl1965" Subject: Re: TPDIS: TPs and the Ability to Kill Date: 12 Nov 2002 20:35:02 -0600 I dont mean that killing is the only solution, I merely meant that it wouldnt be a hinderance to Peter's generation. I think that in some cases, they'd have to kill. It would be the final solution. Not the preferred one, but the last one. In the Master's case, I dont even know if they could easily subdue him to do that. Also, arent Time Lords more mentally complex than humans? I cant recall all of my Whovian lore at the moment. :P Jeff ----- Original Message ----- > jeffl1965 wrote: > > Indeed. Peter could be Super-TP, if you will. They would have to have > > better developed powers, imho, and would most likely *need* to be able > > to kill in order to correct any errors that they find made by illegal > > visitors to the TimeStream. Imagine what would happen if The Master > > gained control over the TimeLanes. They'd have to kill him him. He'd > > certainly kill them off, and a stungun just wouldnt do it. > > I'm not sure this is true. In this regard I agree with Kathryn, in that > there are other ways to deal with a persistant menace than just kill it. > For instance, depending on the range of future TP abilities, they could > rewire someone's mind to remove the instinct for violence. They could > wipe someone's personality (arguably killing them) and implant a brand > new one. They could imprison someone inside a contructed reality in > their own mind. Look what they eventaully did to Jedekiah. There's lots > of different ways of dealing with someone that don't involve doing them > in. I prefer to think that, despite the no-kill rule being a handicap, > that rather than getting rid of it or bypassing it, that future TPs > develop more creative ways of using their powers so that it is no longer > a hindrance. > > Doctor TOC > -- > The Reverend Doctor "The Other Chris" > Secret Elf, Jive Talkin' Choirboy, God of Cowboy Spurs > ICQ # 4814586 > Daleks! 3D - http://users.rcn.com/otherchris/ > Time War RPG - http://jump.to/TimeWar > alt.tv.sevendays FAQ - http://welcome.to/7-Days > The TOC Files - http://members.fortunecity.com/toc > > > Introducing NetZero Long Distance 1st month Free! Sign up today at: www.netzerolongdistance.com ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: "jeffl1965" Subject: Re: TPDIS: Costuming Query Date: 12 Nov 2002 20:37:59 -0600 Not currently, but in the late 80's after the show ended, you could buy fan made jaunting bands from a US club. I never got mine, so I cant tell you what they looked like. Apparently they were easier to make than the belts. I did ask. Jeff ----- Original Message ----- Sent: Tuesday, November 12, 2002 4:45 PM > In a bid to demonstrate that I'm not just interested in death, I was > wondering if anyone out there has built their own jaunting belt (forget > the bands - too gaudy), as I was interested in constructing my own. I've > not ventured into SF costuming before, being the sort of man whose > encounters with needle and thread have either been the result of a visit > to the hospital, or rapidly precipitate a visit to the hospital... but I > figure I might be able to do something like this without over-taxing my > health insurance. > > So, does anyone have any hints, tips or thoughts on how to construct a > classic jaunting belt prop? > > Doctor TOC > -- > The Reverend Doctor "The Other Chris" > Secret Elf, Jive Talkin' Choirboy, God of Cowboy Spurs > ICQ # 4814586 > Daleks! 3D - http://users.rcn.com/otherchris/ > Time War RPG - http://jump.to/TimeWar > alt.tv.sevendays FAQ - http://welcome.to/7-Days > The TOC Files - http://members.fortunecity.com/toc > > > Introducing NetZero Long Distance 1st month Free! Sign up today at: www.netzerolongdistance.com ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: ade Subject: Re: TPDIS: Costuming Query Date: 12 Nov 2002 22:43:02 -0500 Dave's site has a bunch of cute graphics that he made. I could swear there was also something along the lines of a pattern of sorts that as a guide to construction of jaunting belts. Am I wrong in remembering this? But I would think if you got... A black belt Black and white pieces of plastic (or other hard object) cut into squares A flat surfaced, square belt buckle You could super glue the squares onto the surface of the buckle in the same checker pattern. That is really what they look like anyhow. jeffl1965 wrote: > > Not currently, but in the late 80's after the show ended, you could buy fan > made jaunting bands from a US club. I never got mine, so I cant tell you > what they looked like. Apparently they were easier to make than the belts. I > did ask. > > Jeff > > ----- Original Message ----- > From: "Doctor TOC" > To: "TP Dis" > Sent: Tuesday, November 12, 2002 4:45 PM > Subject: TPDIS: Costuming Query > > > In a bid to demonstrate that I'm not just interested in death, I was > > wondering if anyone out there has built their own jaunting belt (forget > > the bands - too gaudy), as I was interested in constructing my own. I've > > not ventured into SF costuming before, being the sort of man whose > > encounters with needle and thread have either been the result of a visit > > to the hospital, or rapidly precipitate a visit to the hospital... but I > > figure I might be able to do something like this without over-taxing my > > health insurance. > > > > So, does anyone have any hints, tips or thoughts on how to construct a > > classic jaunting belt prop? > > > > Doctor TOC > > -- > > The Reverend Doctor "The Other Chris" > > Secret Elf, Jive Talkin' Choirboy, God of Cowboy Spurs > > ICQ # 4814586 > > Daleks! 3D - http://users.rcn.com/otherchris/ > > Time War RPG - http://jump.to/TimeWar > > alt.tv.sevendays FAQ - http://welcome.to/7-Days > > The TOC Files - http://members.fortunecity.com/toc > > > > > > > > --------------------------------------------- > Introducing NetZero Long Distance > 1st month Free! > Sign up today at: www.netzerolongdistance.com ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: "John A. Merullo" Subject: Re: TPDIS: TPs and the Ability to Kill Date: 12 Nov 2002 21:47:04 -0600 Shaun Hately wrote: >Well, I dislike Homo novis because I can't get away from the 'source' of that name - >IIRC, the person who referred to the TP as Homo novus was Rabowski - every other >time we heard a taxonomic term used, it was Homo superior. (Jump in and correct >me if I am wrong - I am about to embark on a project on watching every episode >again to refresh my memory, because I finding it harder to recall these details). >IMHO, Rabowski is a bigot when it comes to TP - and I will not accept a term used >by a bigot to describe a person, over the terms those people use to self describe. > >Total speculation on my part, but my impression has always been that Rabowski (or >others like him) made up the 'Homo novus' term as their way of avoiding describing >the TP as Homo superior - Rabowski seems *very* hung up on history and tradition >- so to him, Novus/new would have been a term of contempt. It seems to me 'Homo >novus' might well consitute Rabowskis 25th century version of a racial slur - we >have no reason to assume that the term has *any* validity. Of course, I don't think >there is any canonical reason not to - but it has always seemed that way to me. > Now I'm going on my own sketchy memories here, but I think Rabowski implied that "homo novus/novis" was the term that the new species applied to itself. It does seem a good bit less arrogant than "superior". And then what do we call the next stage of evolution after that? Homo superiorissimus? ;-) I think Professor Cawston used the term "homo superior" for the TP and John said that he did not like to think of it that way or some such (I have *got* to buy that multi-regional DVD player) and refresh these 20-year old memories. John ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: ade Subject: Re: TPDIS: TPs and the Ability to Kill Date: 12 Nov 2002 22:51:39 -0500 Y'know what? I think for a project (something we can all share and it hasn't yet been done), we could select serials and transcribe them. So we have a definitive reference. Wasn't someone going to do that for the archives at one point? Would doing it get us in trouble? All this trying to remember and speculation is hurting my poor little head ;) "John A. Merullo" wrote: > > Shaun Hately wrote: > > >Well, I dislike Homo novis because I can't get away from the 'source' of that name - > >IIRC, the person who referred to the TP as Homo novus was Rabowski - every other > >time we heard a taxonomic term used, it was Homo superior. (Jump in and correct > >me if I am wrong - I am about to embark on a project on watching every episode > >again to refresh my memory, because I finding it harder to recall these details). > >IMHO, Rabowski is a bigot when it comes to TP - and I will not accept a term used > >by a bigot to describe a person, over the terms those people use to self describe. > > > >Total speculation on my part, but my impression has always been that Rabowski (or > >others like him) made up the 'Homo novus' term as their way of avoiding describing > >the TP as Homo superior - Rabowski seems *very* hung up on history and tradition > >- so to him, Novus/new would have been a term of contempt. It seems to me 'Homo > >novus' might well consitute Rabowskis 25th century version of a racial slur - we > >have no reason to assume that the term has *any* validity. Of course, I don't think > >there is any canonical reason not to - but it has always seemed that way to me. > > > Now I'm going on my own sketchy memories here, but I think Rabowski > implied that "homo novus/novis" was the term that the new species > applied to itself. It does seem a good bit less arrogant than > "superior". And then what do we call the next stage of evolution after > that? Homo superiorissimus? ;-) > I think Professor Cawston used the term "homo superior" for the TP and > John said that he did not like to think of it that way or some such (I > have *got* to buy that multi-regional DVD player) and refresh these > 20-year old memories. > > John ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: Wendy Perkins Subject: Re: TPDIS: TPs and the Ability to Kill Date: 12 Nov 2002 22:20:38 -0600 > >we could select serials and transcribe them. Sounds like a good project. I've got a home for the transcripts if anyone wants to participate. >Wasn't someone going to do that for the archives at one point? Yes. Someone did Slaves and the first episode of Medusa. She then disappeared from fandom, AFAIK. >Would doing it get us in trouble? It could. More than anything except media clips, transcripts really piss off production companies. Oh, and Jackie, I'm happy to OP and/or help OPing to get things going. ... Wendy ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: "Shaun Hately" Subject: Re: TPDIS: TPs and the Ability to Kill Date: 13 Nov 2002 15:34:02 +1100 On 12 Nov 2002 at 22:51, ade wrote: > > Y'know what? I think for a project (something we can all share and it > hasn't yet been done), we could select serials and transcribe them. So > we have a definitive reference. > > Wasn't someone going to do that for the archives at one point? Would > doing it get us in trouble? > > All this trying to remember and speculation is hurting my poor little > head ;) I'd certainly be willing to do a serial - even one of the longer ones. I've seriously considered doing it before (and did do a transcript for the new series pilot - which is why I know what a huge undertaking it would be for me) but the idea of doing it for every story is just too daunting. In a legal sense, it falls into a grey area - technically speaking, it's a violation of Copyright - in a practical sense, it is extremely unlikely there would be any objection because it would serve to make the episodes more accessible to the hearing impaired, and that is seen as a worthwhile goal. Ideally, it should probably be done off the DVDs for consistency (not all copies of other tapes are the same) and also because these are fairly clear. And I'd certainly be willing to take this on for one of the DVDs I have (currently the first four) provided other people are willing to assist as well. Yours Without Wax, Dreadnought Shaun Hately |webpage: http://www.alphalink.com.au/~drednort/thelab.html (ISTJ) |email: drednort@alphalink.com.au | ICQ: 6898200 "You know the very powerful and the very stupid have one thing in common. They don't alter their views to fit the facts. They alter the facts to fit the views. Which can be uncomfortable if you happen to be one of the facts that need altering." The Doctor - Doctor Who: The Face of Evil | Where am I: Frankston, Victoria, Australia ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: "John A. Merullo" Subject: TPDIS: What are they singing? Date: 12 Nov 2002 22:58:48 -0600 The one OS episode I have access to at the moment is a VHS copy of "The Blue and the Green" I found on eBay. There is one scene where Liz's class is getting rowdy becuase Robert's picture is stormy and they all start singing something to the tune of "Adeste Fidelis" ("O Come All Ye Faithful") that I don't recognise. Does anyone out there in TP-land know what it is? Thanks, John ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: "Shaun Hately" Subject: Re: TPDIS: TPs and the Ability to Kill Date: 13 Nov 2002 15:59:59 +1100
On 12 Nov 2002 at 21:47, John A. Merullo wrote:

>
>
> Shaun Hately wrote:
>
> >Well, I dislike Homo novis because I can't get away from the 'source' of that name -
> >IIRC, the person who referred to the TP as Homo novus was Rabowski - every other
> >time we heard a taxonomic term used, it was Homo superior. (Jump in and correct
> >me if I am wrong - I am about to embark on a project on watching every episode
> >again to refresh my memory, because I finding it harder to recall these details).
> >IMHO, Rabowski is a bigot when it comes to TP - and I will not accept a term used
> >by a bigot to describe a person, over the terms those people use to self describe.
> >
> >Total speculation on my part, but my impression has always been that Rabowski (or
> >others like him) made up the 'Homo novus' term as their way of avoiding describing
> >the TP as Homo superior - Rabowski seems *very* hung up on history and tradition
> >- so to him, Novus/new would have been a term of contempt. It seems to me 'Homo
> >novus' might well consitute Rabowskis 25th century version of a racial slur - we
> >have no reason to assume that the term has *any* validity. Of course, I don't think
> >there is any canonical reason not to - but it has always seemed that way to me.
> >
> Now I'm going on my own sketchy memories here, but I think Rabowski
> implied that "homo novus/novis" was the term that the new species
> applied to itself.

Not quite.

RABOWSKI: You know I am one of the last men, the old type of real men, left in the galaxy. All the rest are nothing, telepathic sheep only fit to bleat about peace and brotherly love.
JEDIKIAH: But able to guide you down the time lanes.
RABOWSKI: Hmm. If I can make 'em.
JEDIKIAH: These telepaths. Tomorrow People. Do they still call themselves by that name?
RABOWSKI: Tomorrow People. That's a strange name. I don't think I've heard of that one. Do you know such people?
JEDIKIAH: I did. Back in the twentieth century.The Tomorrow People were the only telepaths alive on earth then.
RABOWSKI: They must have been early example of Homo novis, the new man. What effrontery to call themselves man at all. Men? They won't fight. They won't even defend themselves. All they ever do is zap around the universe, winking and blinking and vanishing. Hah. And appearing where they're not wanted.

It's ambiguous - he's asked what they call themselves - but he initially doesn't answer that question - the reference to Homo novis might be to self description (and it appears that whatever they call themselves, some form of 'man' is in the name - but it's not totally clear.

> It does seem a good bit less arrogant than
> "superior". And then what do we call the next stage of evolution after
> that? Homo superiorissimus? ;-)

Well Homo sapiens is also an inherently arrogant name. Man is an arrogant creature at times (John?).

> I think Professor Cawston used the term "homo superior" for the TP and
> John said that he did not like to think of it that way or some such (I
> have *got* to buy that multi-regional DVD player) and refresh these
> 20-year old memories.

Yes - but on other occasions they did use the descriptor - so while John may not *like* using it - he did use it on occasion. That's the thing about scientific names - sometimes you are stuck with them whether they actually make sense or not. There's not much mouselike about Balaenoptera musculus (the blue whale).




Yours Without Wax, Dreadnought
Shaun Hately |webpage: http://www.alphalink.com.au/~drednort/thelab.html
(ISTJ)       |email: drednort@alphalink.com.au | ICQ: 6898200
"You know the very powerful and the very stupid have one thing in
common. They don't alter their views to fit the facts. They alter
the facts to fit the views. Which can be uncomfortable if you happen
to be one of the facts that need altering." The Doctor - Doctor Who:
The Face of Evil | Where am I: Frankston, Victoria, Australia
------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: "John A. Merullo" Subject: Re: TPDIS: TPs and the Ability to Kill Date: 12 Nov 2002 23:15:24 -0600 Shaun Hately wrote: > On 12 Nov 2002 at 21:47, John A. Merullo wrote: > > > It does seem a good bit less arrogant than > > > "superior". And then what do we call the next stage of evolution after > > > that? Homo superiorissimus? ;-) > > > Well Homo sapiens is also an inherently arrogant name. Man is an > arrogant creature at times (John?). > Umm, you mean the TP John, right? John Tries really hard not to be arrogant ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: "Shaun Hately" Subject: Re: TPDIS: TPs and the Ability to Kill Date: 13 Nov 2002 16:21:25 +1100 On 12 Nov 2002 at 23:15, John A. Merullo wrote: > > Well Homo sapiens is also an inherently arrogant name. Man is an > > arrogant creature at times (John?). > > > Umm, you mean the TP John, right? Oh definitely - whom I model myself on, so I am very well aware of his arrogance (- 8 Yours Without Wax, Dreadnought Shaun Hately |webpage: http://www.alphalink.com.au/~drednort/thelab.html (ISTJ) |email: drednort@alphalink.com.au | ICQ: 6898200 "You know the very powerful and the very stupid have one thing in common. They don't alter their views to fit the facts. They alter the facts to fit the views. Which can be uncomfortable if you happen to be one of the facts that need altering." The Doctor - Doctor Who: The Face of Evil | Where am I: Frankston, Victoria, Australia ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: ThirdRomana@netscape.net (Kristin 'Duckie' Dunn) Subject: Re: TPDIS: Costuming Query Date: 13 Nov 2002 00:44:44 -0500 I have somewhere in my room a TP annual that had instructions on how to make a jaunting belt. I made one for a speech that I had to do my sophomore year (wow was that really last year... Scary) in class. I can dig out the annual when I go home next time, and send you the instructions of you want. Kristin Yeah yeah midterms are over! Now all I have left to do is finish writing my Harry Potter lesson plan, do three more presentations, and then have final exams! When does it all end?!?! >> ----- Original Message ----- >> From: "Doctor TOC" >> To: "TP Dis" >> Sent: Tuesday, November 12, 2002 4:45 PM >> Subject: TPDIS: Costuming Query >> >> > In a bid to demonstrate that I'm not just interested in death, I was >> > wondering if anyone out there has built their own jaunting belt (forget >> > the bands - too gaudy), as I was interested in constructing my own. I've >> > not ventured into SF costuming before, being the sort of man whose >> > encounters with needle and thread have either been the result of a visit >> > to the hospital, or rapidly precipitate a visit to the hospital... but I >> > figure I might be able to do something like this without over-taxing my >> > health insurance. >> > >> > So, does anyone have any hints, tips or thoughts on how to construct a >> > classic jaunting belt prop? >> > >> > Doctor TOC >> > -- >> > The Reverend Doctor "The Other Chris" >> > Secret Elf, Jive Talkin' Choirboy, God of Cowboy Spurs >> > ICQ # 4814586 >> > Daleks! 3D - http://users.rcn.com/otherchris/ >> > Time War RPG - http://jump.to/TimeWar >> > alt.tv.sevendays FAQ - http://welcome.to/7-Days >> > The TOC Files - http://members.fortunecity.com/toc >> > >> > >> > >> >> --------------------------------------------- >> Introducing NetZero Long Distance >> 1st month Free! >> Sign up today at: www.netzerolongdistance.com > > -- -I come from the land of the free, home of the brave! -Scotland?!?! Rocky and Mac~Chicken Run To whom it may concern, can you please make it to where I don't take exams at 7.00am, and not have to take exams that don't finish till 10.00pm? My sanity would love you forever. Oh the frazzled mind of a college student during finals. The gods owe us favors. "You know you've been watching too much British TV when the accents start to sound normal." "What if everything you see is more that what you see - the person next to you is a warrior and the space that appears empty is a secret door to another world? What if something appears that shouldn't? You either dismiss it or accept that there is much more to the world than you think." Shigeru Miyamoto~Creator of Mario, Zelda, Donkey Kong, and Pikman. "It's great to be known, but it's even better to be known as strange." -Takeshi Kaga ~Iron Chef "tell me what you eat, and I'll tell you who you are." --Brillat-Savarin __________________________________________________________________ The NEW Netscape 7.0 browser is now available. Upgrade now! http://channels.netscape.com/ns/browsers/download.jsp Get your own FREE, personal Netscape Mail account today at http://webmail.netscape.com/ ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: "Shaun Hately" Subject: Re: TPDIS: What are they singing? Date: 13 Nov 2002 17:19:57 +1100 On 12 Nov 2002 at 22:58, John A. Merullo wrote: > The one OS episode I have access to at the moment is a VHS copy of "The > Blue and the Green" I found on eBay. > There is one scene where Liz's class is getting rowdy becuase Robert's > picture is stormy and they all start singing something to the tune of > "Adeste Fidelis" ("O Come All Ye Faithful") that I don't recognise. > Does anyone out there in TP-land know what it is? "WHY ARE WE WAITING? WHY ARE WE WAITING?" Yours Without Wax, Dreadnought Shaun Hately |webpage: http://www.alphalink.com.au/~drednort/thelab.html (ISTJ) |email: drednort@alphalink.com.au | ICQ: 6898200 "You know the very powerful and the very stupid have one thing in common. They don't alter their views to fit the facts. They alter the facts to fit the views. Which can be uncomfortable if you happen to be one of the facts that need altering." The Doctor - Doctor Who: The Face of Evil | Where am I: Frankston, Victoria, Australia ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: "Jackie Clark" Subject: Re: TPDIS: Costuming Query Date: 13 Nov 2002 06:41:39 -0000 I have a belt which was made when I visited Shawn, a list member in the US. The cast have all seen (and worn ) it and say it's better than the one's they had in the show. Mail me off list and I'll try to recall how to make it. There's a pic on my web site some where of PVC wearing it.. and Ana from this list took a photo of her wearing it when she came to visit too! It's a well travelled belt ;-) Jackie ----- Original Message ----- Sent: Tuesday, November 12, 2002 10:45 PM > In a bid to demonstrate that I'm not just interested in death, I was > wondering if anyone out there has built their own jaunting belt (forget > the bands - too gaudy), as I was interested in constructing my own. I've > not ventured into SF costuming before, being the sort of man whose > encounters with needle and thread have either been the result of a visit > to the hospital, or rapidly precipitate a visit to the hospital... but I > figure I might be able to do something like this without over-taxing my > health insurance. > > So, does anyone have any hints, tips or thoughts on how to construct a > classic jaunting belt prop? > > Doctor TOC > -- > The Reverend Doctor "The Other Chris" > Secret Elf, Jive Talkin' Choirboy, God of Cowboy Spurs > ICQ # 4814586 > Daleks! 3D - http://users.rcn.com/otherchris/ > Time War RPG - http://jump.to/TimeWar > alt.tv.sevendays FAQ - http://welcome.to/7-Days > The TOC Files - http://members.fortunecity.com/toc > > ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: Doctor TOC Subject: Re: TPDIS: TPs and the Ability to Kill Date: 13 Nov 2002 09:27:28 -0500 jeffl1965 wrote: > In the Master's case, I dont even know if they could > easily subdue him to do that. Also, arent Time Lords more mentally complex > than humans? I cant recall all of my Whovian lore at the moment. :P Depending on your source,*way* more complex. They were telepathic in the series, able to instantly translate spoken alien languages (curiously giving everyone in space a British accent :-P) and allow their companions to share in the translation. They could establish "contact", with each other, exchanging information at a vast rate, and they could establish their will over others in a manner similar to hypnosis. If you accept the books as canon (there's that word again), they're evn more complex, being three dimensional shadows of a much larger four or five dimensional being, and having an vast mental "landscape" in which their former and future incarnations co-exist... I do see your point though. Doctor TOC -- The Reverend Doctor "The Other Chris" Secret Elf, Jive Talkin' Choirboy, God of Cowboy Spurs ICQ # 4814586 Daleks! 3D - http://users.rcn.com/otherchris/ Time War RPG - http://jump.to/TimeWar alt.tv.sevendays FAQ - http://welcome.to/7-Days The TOC Files - http://members.fortunecity.com/toc ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: "jeffl1965" Subject: Re: TPDIS: TPs and the Ability to Kill Date: 13 Nov 2002 13:16:57 -0600 ----- Original Message ----- Sent: Wednesday, November 13, 2002 8:27 AM > jeffl1965 wrote: > > In the Master's case, I dont even know if they could > > easily subdue him to do that. Also, arent Time Lords more mentally complex > > than humans? I cant recall all of my Whovian lore at the moment. :P > > Depending on your source,*way* more complex. They were telepathic in the > series, able to instantly translate spoken alien languages (curiously > giving everyone in space a British accent :-P) and allow their > companions to share in the translation. They could establish "contact", > with each other, exchanging information at a vast rate, and they could > establish their will over others in a manner similar to hypnosis. If you > accept the books as canon (there's that word again), they're evn more > complex, being three dimensional shadows of a much larger four or five > dimensional being, and having an vast mental "landscape" in which their > former and future incarnations co-exist... > > I do see your point though. > > Doctor TOC > -- > The Reverend Doctor "The Other Chris" > Secret Elf, Jive Talkin' Choirboy, God of Cowboy Spurs > ICQ # 4814586 > Daleks! 3D - http://users.rcn.com/otherchris/ > Time War RPG - http://jump.to/TimeWar > alt.tv.sevendays FAQ - http://welcome.to/7-Days > The TOC Files - http://members.fortunecity.com/toc > > > Thanks for the clarification. I couldnt recall everything, and dont have any novels handy. Well, *most* of the new 4th Doctor's novels written during the JNT days seemed to be pretty standardized and stayed within canon, I guess. I dont recall. Regardless, I did know that the TL were very more advanced than mere humans, even the TP. ;) Jeff Introducing NetZero Long Distance 1st month Free! Sign up today at: www.netzerolongdistance.com ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: Michael Matott Subject: Re: TPDIS: TPs and the Ability to Kill Date: 13 Nov 2002 12:18:07 -0800 (PST) --- CMento6653@aol.com wrote: > In a message dated 11/11/02 4:36:04 PM Eastern > Standard Time, > greyfalcon_1@yahoo.com writes: > > > > doesn't mean she wasn't a vegetarian, but I doubt > a > > monsastary that practiced routine human sacrifices > > would be opposed to eating meat for religious > reasons. > > :-) > > Uhm, there were only two of them that knew the > sacrifices were for real I > think. No, everyone knew about the sacrifices. They were real. The belief was that the child gods HAD to die in order to be reborn. Otherwise their godhood would be ended. It was a 'be sacrificed for the good of the people' idea. > That would mean the pretense of trying to do > thing the "religious > way". Not being up on my Tibetan research I'm not > sure if they ate meat or > not. Like I said, typically in mountainous regions, Tibetans aren't vegetarian. Some buddhist sects are vegetarian, but not all, so there's no cut or dry way to make a decision. The strict vegetarians in that region of the world are Jainists. That's a Hindu sect that believes it is bad to harm ANY living thing be it bug or person. They're most highly concentrated in India, but can be found in other regions. mike __________________________________________________ Do you Yahoo!? U2 on LAUNCH - Exclusive greatest hits videos http://launch.yahoo.com/u2 ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: KVDelano@aol.com Subject: Re: TPDIS: TPs and the Ability to Kill Date: 13 Nov 2002 19:15:20 EST --part1_a7.29f1e9bb.2b044518_boundary Content-Type: text/plain; charset="US-ASCII" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit I once started a transcript of the origin story (my car broke down and I was waiting for a ride, so I had nothing to do except sitby the side of the road and do that from memory. unfortunately, when my car brokedownthenext weekf or the finaltime,t he transcript went with itto the dump. I only have Slaves DVD, but Iwould be glad to proofread if anyone needs it. Karen --part1_a7.29f1e9bb.2b044518_boundary Content-Type: text/html; charset="US-ASCII" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit I once started a transcript of the origin story (my car broke down and I was waiting for a ride, so I had nothing to do except sitby the side of the road and do that from memory.
unfortunately, when my car brokedownthenext weekf or the finaltime,t he transcript went with itto the dump.
I only have Slaves DVD, but Iwould be glad to proofread if anyone needs it.
Karen --part1_a7.29f1e9bb.2b044518_boundary-- ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: KVDelano@aol.com Subject: Re: TPDIS: Costuming Query Date: 13 Nov 2002 19:20:49 EST --part1_15e.17108b27.2b044661_boundary Content-Type: text/plain; charset="US-ASCII" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit I made a smaller version of the belt (pinreally) (1.5X2in.) out of wood,hot glue, craft jewels and white and black paint. Oh andareally big safety pin. Remembering the exact order of the squares (outlined, rounded squares really) was fun,andthen deciding on a boy or girl version. I did the main version, since only Liz wore the other style. Except mike in the episode with Pavla, his belt kept changing. Karen --part1_15e.17108b27.2b044661_boundary Content-Type: text/html; charset="US-ASCII" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit I made a smaller version of the belt (pinreally) (1.5X2in.) out of wood,hot glue, craft jewels and white and black paint. Oh andareally big safety pin.
Remembering the exact order of the squares (outlined, rounded squares really) was fun,andthen deciding on a boy or girl version. I did the main version, since only Liz wore the other style.  Except mike in the episode with Pavla, his belt kept changing.
Karen --part1_15e.17108b27.2b044661_boundary-- ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: "John A. Merullo" Subject: Re: TPDIS: TPs and the Ability to Kill Date: 13 Nov 2002 20:01:36 -0600 Michael Matott wrote: >- > >>> >>Uhm, there were only two of them that knew the >>sacrifices were for real I >>think. >> > >No, everyone knew about the sacrifices. They were >real. The belief was that the child gods HAD to die >in order to be reborn. Otherwise their godhood would >be ended. It was a 'be sacrificed for the good of the >people' idea. > IIRC, Hsui Tai did not know she was going to be killed until they lit the fire. The monks may have all known, but the child gods did not. And, of course, some of the monks may have devoutly believed that the child gods indeed were immortal and that they truly were setting them free for their next incarnation. > >>That would mean the pretense of trying to do >>thing the "religious >>way". Not being up on my Tibetan research I'm not >>sure if they ate meat or >>not. >> > >Like I said, typically in mountainous regions, >Tibetans aren't vegetarian. Some buddhist sects are >vegetarian, but not all, so there's no cut or dry way >to make a decision. The strict vegetarians in that >region of the world are Jainists. That's a Hindu sect >that believes it is bad to harm ANY living thing be it >bug or person. They're most highly concentrated in >India, but can be found in other regions. > I'm pretty sure the Sanshu were not supposed to be Jainists. Canonically, they are referred to only as "Sanshu", so to which "real" religious group they belong would be purely speculation. Anyway, whether she was a vegetarian or not, I don't think Hsui Tai would have had it in her to kill an animal, but that may be more her temperament than an effect of the prime barrier. ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: "Martin Dunn" Subject: Re: TPDIS: TPs and the Ability to Kill Date: 14 Nov 2002 12:51:45 +1030 ----- Original Message ----- Sent: Wednesday, November 13, 2002 7:26 AM > Okay, my 5c worth.... > I can't find the post I'm wanting to reply to, so I'll just ramble on... > > A couple of times in this discussion, it's been mentioned that the > no-kill rule is counter-evolutionary; that if they can't kill to defend > themselves, then obviously they must be an evolutionary dead-end. > > Sorry, but that just demonstrates that the posters don't understand > evolution. But I guess the confusion arises due to that little word > "fittest" in "Survival of the fittest." People usually think of > "fittest" to mean "strongest/most muscly" but in this context it's "fit" > more as in "gee, that dress is a good fit". Survival of the most > well-adapted. Yes! You've got something there! The greatest threat to a selfish superbeing is another selfish superbeing. Prime Barrier would be contra-survival in any situation with a mauling by a pack of wild dogs, but pro-survival in inter-superbeing relations. And the second one would be the far more usual scenario. Think of cats. They have developed a strategy which negates a lose-lose situation. When Toms are fighting, if they are squaring off to no good purpose and likely to mess each other up, they both commence preening. Prime Barrier would be the TP equivalent of a good whisker wash. Martin ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: Kathryn Andersen Subject: Re: TPDIS: TPs and the Ability to Kill Date: 14 Nov 2002 19:50:40 +1100 On Wed, Nov 13, 2002 at 08:01:36PM -0600, John A. Merullo wrote: > > Michael Matott wrote: > > >>Uhm, there were only two of them that knew the > >>sacrifices were for real I > >>think. > > > >No, everyone knew about the sacrifices. They were > >real. The belief was that the child gods HAD to die > >in order to be reborn. Otherwise their godhood would > >be ended. It was a 'be sacrificed for the good of the > >people' idea. > > > IIRC, Hsui Tai did not know she was going to be killed until they lit > the fire. The monks may have all known, but the child gods did not. And, > of course, some of the monks may have devoutly believed that the child > gods indeed were immortal and that they truly were setting them free for > their next incarnation. No, I don't think you recall correctly. I may not recall correctly either, but what I do recall is that Hsui Tai realized that there was something wrong because the bad guys were trying to sacrifice *John* as well as Hsui Tai and Steven. As far as that religion was concerned, the death of Hsui Tai and Steven was not murder, because they were gods and were about to be reborn. However, John was *not* in the pantheon, therefore killing him was murder, and thus against the Sanshu religion. This revealed the bad guys for the hypocrite apostates that they were; while the rest of the monks believed, sincerely, the bad eggs just considered it a good con from which they benefited, a con which happened to culminate in ritual murder. And as far as they were concerned the death of John was just one more murder to add to the many they'd already committed, callous wicked men that they were. Kathryn Andersen -=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=- Kenzy: Why forty-one? Shoun: It's the upper limit of the human body's tolerance for heat. (Star Cops: In Warm Blood) -- _--_|\ | Kathryn Andersen / \ | \_.--.*/ | GenFicCrit mailing list v | ------------| Melbourne -> Victoria -> Australia -> Southern Hemisphere Maranatha! | -> Earth -> Sol -> Milky Way Galaxy -> Universe ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: Kathryn Andersen Subject: Re: TPDIS: TPs and the Ability to Kill Date: 14 Nov 2002 19:58:05 +1100 On Thu, Nov 14, 2002 at 12:51:45PM +1030, Martin Dunn wrote: > > From: "Kathryn Andersen" > > > A couple of times in this discussion, it's been mentioned that the > > no-kill rule is counter-evolutionary; that if they can't kill to defend > > themselves, then obviously they must be an evolutionary dead-end. > > > > Sorry, but that just demonstrates that the posters don't understand > > evolution. But I guess the confusion arises due to that little word > > "fittest" in "Survival of the fittest." People usually think of > > "fittest" to mean "strongest/most muscly" but in this context it's "fit" > > more as in "gee, that dress is a good fit". Survival of the most > > well-adapted. > > Yes! You've got something there! The greatest threat to a selfish superbeing > is another selfish superbeing. Prime Barrier would be contra-survival in any > situation with a mauling by a pack of wild dogs, but pro-survival in > inter-superbeing relations. And the second one would be the far more usual > scenario. > > Think of cats. They have developed a strategy which negates a lose-lose > situation. When Toms are fighting, if they are squaring off to no good > purpose and likely to mess each other up, they both commence preening. > Prime Barrier would be the TP equivalent of a good whisker wash. LOL! Unfortunately, the logical conclusion of this line of reasoning is that you would think that therefore the Prime Barrier ought only to apply to TP (or maybe to telepaths), not to non-superbeings such as saps. However, I do agree that the Prime Barrier could well be a "collective survival" mechanism, to prevent the human species (homo sapiens sapiens and homo sapiens superior) from wiping themselves out due to human aggression ("wars and stuff"). The "tom-cat" reaction to prevent self-destruction. No need to prevent TPs from getting violent, just as tom-cats get violent; just need to prevent them from killing, as that does the species no good. Of course, the problem with analogies is that they usually break down before too long... Kathryn Andersen -=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=- "Damn. I don't understand this, man. Uh... okay, um... there's got to be a explanation for...maybe it was the parachute jump, the sudden change in air pressure. Or, uh... maybe it's the shock of being back in the jungle." -- Blair Sandburg, applying the scientific method (Sentinel: Flight) -- _--_|\ | Kathryn Andersen / \ | \_.--.*/ | GenFicCrit mailing list v | ------------| Melbourne -> Victoria -> Australia -> Southern Hemisphere Maranatha! | -> Earth -> Sol -> Milky Way Galaxy -> Universe ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: "John A. Merullo" Subject: Re: TPDIS: TPs and the Ability to Kill Date: 14 Nov 2002 08:14:50 -0600 Kathryn Andersen wrote: >On Wed, Nov 13, 2002 at 08:01:36PM -0600, John A. Merullo wrote: > >>Michael Matott wrote: >> >>>>Uhm, there were only two of them that knew the >>>>sacrifices were for real I >>>>think. >>>> >>>No, everyone knew about the sacrifices. They were >>>real. The belief was that the child gods HAD to die >>>in order to be reborn. Otherwise their godhood would >>>be ended. It was a 'be sacrificed for the good of the >>>people' idea. >>> >>IIRC, Hsui Tai did not know she was going to be killed until they lit >>the fire. The monks may have all known, but the child gods did not. And, >>of course, some of the monks may have devoutly believed that the child >>gods indeed were immortal and that they truly were setting them free for >>their next incarnation. >> > >No, I don't think you recall correctly. I may not recall correctly >either, but what I do recall is that Hsui Tai realized that there was >something wrong because the bad guys were trying to sacrifice *John* as >well as Hsui Tai and Steven. As far as that religion was concerned, the >death of Hsui Tai and Steven was not murder, because they were gods and >were about to be reborn. However, John was *not* in the pantheon, >therefore killing him was murder, and thus against the Sanshu religion. > >This revealed the bad guys for the hypocrite apostates that they were; >while the rest of the monks believed, sincerely, the bad eggs just >considered it a good con from which they benefited, a con which happened >to culminate in ritual murder. And as far as they were concerned the >death of John was just one more murder to add to the many they'd already >committed, callous wicked men that they were. > It was Mike, not Stephen, but, otherwise you're right. Thanks, John Saving his pennies for that multi-regional DVD player. ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: "John A. Merullo" Subject: Re: TPDIS: TPs and the Ability to Kill Date: 14 Nov 2002 08:15:00 -0600 Kathryn Andersen wrote: >On Wed, Nov 13, 2002 at 08:01:36PM -0600, John A. Merullo wrote: > >>Michael Matott wrote: >> >>>>Uhm, there were only two of them that knew the >>>>sacrifices were for real I >>>>think. >>>> >>>No, everyone knew about the sacrifices. They were >>>real. The belief was that the child gods HAD to die >>>in order to be reborn. Otherwise their godhood would >>>be ended. It was a 'be sacrificed for the good of the >>>people' idea. >>> >>IIRC, Hsui Tai did not know she was going to be killed until they lit >>the fire. The monks may have all known, but the child gods did not. And, >>of course, some of the monks may have devoutly believed that the child >>gods indeed were immortal and that they truly were setting them free for >>their next incarnation. >> > >No, I don't think you recall correctly. I may not recall correctly >either, but what I do recall is that Hsui Tai realized that there was >something wrong because the bad guys were trying to sacrifice *John* as >well as Hsui Tai and Steven. As far as that religion was concerned, the >death of Hsui Tai and Steven was not murder, because they were gods and >were about to be reborn. However, John was *not* in the pantheon, >therefore killing him was murder, and thus against the Sanshu religion. > >This revealed the bad guys for the hypocrite apostates that they were; >while the rest of the monks believed, sincerely, the bad eggs just >considered it a good con from which they benefited, a con which happened >to culminate in ritual murder. And as far as they were concerned the >death of John was just one more murder to add to the many they'd already >committed, callous wicked men that they were. > It was Mike, not Stephen, but, otherwise you're right. Thanks, John Saving his pennies for that multi-regional DVD player. ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: "John A. Merullo" Subject: TPDIS: Sorry! Date: 14 Nov 2002 08:25:35 -0600 Oops! I accidentally sent that message twice. My apologies! John ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: Beth E. Subject: Re: TPDIS: TPs and the Ability to Kill Date: 14 Nov 2002 12:53:00 -0600 On Wednesday, November 13, 2002, at 08:21 PM, Martin Dunn wrote: > Yes! You've got something there! The greatest threat to a selfish > superbeing > is another selfish superbeing. Prime Barrier would be contra-survival > in any > situation with a mauling by a pack of wild dogs, Why can't they just teleport away and still get to live to have kids? As long as the Prime Barrier is linked to the TP's other abilities, their teleportation pretty much negates these arguments (you know, unless there's an open jar of cheez whiz nearby:). Tigger ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: Doctor TOC Subject: Re: TPDIS: Costuming Query Date: 14 Nov 2002 14:19:06 -0500 Kristin 'Duckie' Dunn wrote: > I have somewhere in my room a TP annual that had instructions on how > to make a jaunting belt. I made one for a speech that I had to do my > sophomore year (wow was that really last year... Scary) in class. I > can dig out the annual when I go home next time, and send you the > instructions of you want. Cheers, Kristin. That'd be great! Thanks to you and Jackie for your feedback. Chris -- The Reverend Doctor "The Other Chris" Secret Elf, Jive Talkin' Choirboy, God of Cowboy Spurs ICQ # 4814586 Daleks! 3D - http://users.rcn.com/otherchris/ Time War RPG - http://jump.to/TimeWar alt.tv.sevendays FAQ - http://welcome.to/7-Days The TOC Files - http://members.fortunecity.com/toc ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: Michael Matott Subject: Re: TPDIS: TPs and the Ability to Kill Date: 14 Nov 2002 13:03:14 -0800 (PST) --- CMento6653@aol.com wrote: > In a message dated 11/11/02 6:04:10 PM Eastern > Standard Time, > tptigger42@earthlink.net writes: > > > > You're telling me that the Sorsons are better at > mind control than > > Sogguth (who was strongly implied to be the > devil)? > > > > > > Who said the Sorsons used mind control? Where? > When? The Deadliest Species Audio CD, which is where this part of the thread stemeed from. > > > << temple was located in the > Himalayas for whatever that's worth.>>>>>> > > Isn't that in Tibet? > The Himalayas are a fairly extensive mountain range that are found in China, Tibet, Pakistan, Afghanistan, and India. mike __________________________________________________ Do you Yahoo!? Yahoo! Web Hosting - Let the expert host your site http://webhosting.yahoo.com ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: "Martin Dunn" Subject: Re: TPDIS: TPs and the Ability to Kill Date: 15 Nov 2002 12:04:29 +1030 ----- Original Message ----- Sent: Friday, November 15, 2002 5:23 AM > > On Wednesday, November 13, 2002, at 08:21 PM, Martin Dunn wrote: > > > Yes! You've got something there! The greatest threat to a selfish > > superbeing > > is another selfish superbeing. Prime Barrier would be contra-survival > > in any > > situation with a mauling by a pack of wild dogs, > > Why can't they just teleport away and still get to live to have kids? > > As long as the Prime Barrier is linked to the TP's other abilities, > their teleportation pretty much negates these arguments (you know, > unless there's an open jar of cheez whiz nearby:). > > Tigger This is assuming [insert your favourite plot device which prevents teleportation here]. Martin ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: Michael Matott Subject: Re: TPDIS: TPs and the Ability to Kill Date: 15 Nov 2002 14:45:02 -0800 (PST) --- Doctor TOC wrote: > jeffl1965 wrote: > > In the Master's case, I dont even know if they > could > > easily subdue him to do that. Also, arent Time > Lords more mentally complex > > than humans? I cant recall all of my Whovian lore > at the moment. :P > > Depending on your source,*way* more complex. They > were telepathic in the > series, able to instantly translate spoken alien > languages (curiously > giving everyone in space a British accent :-P) and > allow their > companions to share in the translation. Ah, but according to other sources, it was a feature of the TARDIS that allowed for instantaneous translation. :-) Although, one would think with all the problems that the Doctor had with getting his model to work, that the translator would likely go on the fritz as well. :-) Gotta love inconsitencies. Fortunately for us we only have, what 9 years of TP to nitpick over. With Dr. Who you get 27 years to nitpick. :-) mike - still on the lookout for an out of place blue police box. __________________________________________________ Do you Yahoo!? Yahoo! Web Hosting - Let the expert host your site http://webhosting.yahoo.com ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: "Jackie Clark" Subject: TPDIS: New Chat channel on sorcery.net Date: 16 Nov 2002 15:02:03 -0000 Hello Folks! I have moved the TP chat channel to Sorcery.net where I managed to re-register the channel in a matter of minutes... it all seems much quicker and easier to connect to than Dalnet. I found Sorcery already loaded as an option in the servers drop down menu on my version of irc. I'm sure you can find it too ;-) Just load your irc as usual and type /join #TomorrowPeople Thanks to Simon for this fantastic suggestion. Let's re-launch our channel with a bang and hold an on-line party tonight (Sat) I'll be there at 2am GMT with the champagne ... BTW I'm in the channel at the moment and will be there for the next hour so anyone who wants to come in and say hello please do so... Cya later Jackie ---- "May your senses be enlightened and your dreams be fulfilled." Traditional Manyarnern Greeting http://www.effdee.demon.co.uk/HomeFrameset-1.htm http://www.The-Tomorrow-People.co.uk ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: "Shaun Hately" Subject: TPDIS: The Lab is updated Date: 17 Nov 2002 13:21:02 +1100 My Tomorrow People webpages at http://www.alphalink.com.au/~drednort/thelab.html have been updated. Additions include * A general review of the Tomorrow People DVDs * Excerpts from Volume 4 of The Decline and Fall of the Roman Empire by Edward Gibbon, that refer to the historical factional struggle in Constantinople, referenced by TIM in The Blue and The Green (much easier to read than all six volumes - just ask Stephen). * Images of Wood Lane Underground station (used for filming of exterior scenes of The Lab) - announced last week * Scans of my notes used in writing my fanfic Amalgamation (might be of interest to someone). Yours Without Wax, Dreadnought Shaun Hately |webpage: http://www.alphalink.com.au/~drednort/thelab.html (ISTJ) |email: drednort@alphalink.com.au | ICQ: 6898200 "You know the very powerful and the very stupid have one thing in common. They don't alter their views to fit the facts. They alter the facts to fit the views. Which can be uncomfortable if you happen to be one of the facts that need altering." The Doctor - Doctor Who: The Face of Evil | Where am I: Frankston, Victoria, Australia ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: "Shaun Hately" Subject: TPDIS: Truly 'tis Date: 17 Nov 2002 13:39:43 +1100 It seems it may take some time for my main page to update (you will know if it has if you can see little 'new' and 'updated' icons on it - they've been added with this revision). As it could take a while for the changes on that page to become visible - which would allow you to find the new bits, the URLs for the main new pages are http://www.alphalink.com.au/~drednort/gibbon.html http://www.alphalink.com.au/~drednort/amalnotes.html http://www.alphalink.com.au/~drednort/woodlane.html Yours Without Wax, Dreadnought Shaun Hately |webpage: http://www.alphalink.com.au/~drednort/thelab.html (ISTJ) |email: drednort@alphalink.com.au | ICQ: 6898200 "You know the very powerful and the very stupid have one thing in common. They don't alter their views to fit the facts. They alter the facts to fit the views. Which can be uncomfortable if you happen to be one of the facts that need altering." The Doctor - Doctor Who: The Face of Evil | Where am I: Frankston, Victoria, Australia ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: CMento6653@aol.com Subject: Re: TPDIS: The Lab is updated Date: 16 Nov 2002 21:46:00 EST --part1_11b.19ee3283.2b085ce8_boundary Content-Type: text/plain; charset="US-ASCII" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit In a message dated 11/16/02 9:24:10 PM Eastern Standard Time, drednort@alphalink.com.au writes: > http://www.alphalink.com.au/~drednort/thelab.html Where???????? --part1_11b.19ee3283.2b085ce8_boundary Content-Type: text/html; charset="US-ASCII" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit In a message dated 11/16/02 9:24:10 PM Eastern Standard Time, drednort@alphalink.com.au writes:


http://www.alphalink.com.au/~drednort/thelab.html
Where???????? --part1_11b.19ee3283.2b085ce8_boundary-- ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: CMento6653@aol.com Subject: Re: TPDIS: Truly 'tis Date: 16 Nov 2002 21:51:45 EST --part1_1c6.1b9bef5.2b085e41_boundary Content-Type: text/plain; charset="US-ASCII" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit In a message dated 11/16/02 9:42:17 PM Eastern Standard Time, drednort@alphalink.com.au writes: > http://www.alphalink.com.au/~drednort/gibbon.html > Thanks! Uhm, is there more than volume 4 up? This is very cool though and I will check out the rest of the updates now. --part1_1c6.1b9bef5.2b085e41_boundary Content-Type: text/html; charset="US-ASCII" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit In a message dated 11/16/02 9:42:17 PM Eastern Standard Time, drednort@alphalink.com.au writes:


http://www.alphalink.com.au/~drednort/gibbon.html


Thanks! Uhm, is there more than volume 4 up? This is very cool though and I will check out the rest of the updates now. --part1_1c6.1b9bef5.2b085e41_boundary-- ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: ade Subject: TPDIS: Chat is Open Date: 16 Nov 2002 22:01:19 -0500 C'mon, don't leave the three of us in there alone! ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: AlyAdmirer@aol.com Subject: Re: TPDIS: Chat is Open Date: 16 Nov 2002 22:08:34 EST Shows how much attention I've been paying lately. :) Who's the new server? ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: ade Subject: Re: TPDIS: Chat is Open Date: 16 Nov 2002 22:06:58 -0500 sorcery.net - it is pre-programmed into mIRC AlyAdmirer@aol.com wrote: > > Shows how much attention I've been paying lately. :) > > Who's the new server? ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: "Shaun Hately" Subject: Re: TPDIS: Truly 'tis Date: 17 Nov 2002 14:09:17 +1100 On 16 Nov 2002 at 21:51, CMento6653@aol.com wrote: > In a message dated 11/16/02 9:42:17 PM Eastern Standard Time, > drednort@alphalink.com.au writes: > > > > http://www.alphalink.com.au/~drednort/gibbon.html > > > > Thanks! Uhm, is there more than volume 4 up? This is very cool though and I > will check out the rest of the updates now. Well, it's only excerpts from Volume 4 (the book is hundreds of pages long), and it's everything I could find referring to the Blue and The Green. Volume Five only has one *small* reference - I'm still going through the others, but I think what is up there is most of the references to the Blue/Green struggle. Yours Without Wax, Dreadnought Shaun Hately |webpage: http://www.alphalink.com.au/~drednort/thelab.html (ISTJ) |email: drednort@alphalink.com.au | ICQ: 6898200 "You know the very powerful and the very stupid have one thing in common. They don't alter their views to fit the facts. They alter the facts to fit the views. Which can be uncomfortable if you happen to be one of the facts that need altering." The Doctor - Doctor Who: The Face of Evil | Where am I: Frankston, Victoria, Australia ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: CMento6653@aol.com Subject: Re: TPDIS: Truly 'tis Date: 16 Nov 2002 22:24:03 EST --part1_14d.1776cd2e.2b0865d3_boundary Content-Type: text/plain; charset="US-ASCII" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Very amazing. I also love the underground station pics. How did you find this? Amazing. I wish they had used more of these outside scenes. --part1_14d.1776cd2e.2b0865d3_boundary Content-Type: text/html; charset="US-ASCII" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Very amazing. I also love the underground station pics. How did you find this? Amazing. I wish they had used more of these outside scenes. --part1_14d.1776cd2e.2b0865d3_boundary-- ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: Doctor TOC Subject: Re: TPDIS: The Lab is updated Date: 17 Nov 2002 00:11:15 -0500 Shaun Hately wrote: > My Tomorrow People webpages at > http://www.alphalink.com.au/~drednort/thelab.html have been updated. Nice one. Loved the Gibbon page, and the photos of Wood Lane are excellent. I'm quite a fan of your detective work, Shaun. The notes for Amalgamation were very interesting; as a writer myself, I'm always interested in the way other people write (I almost never plan - whether that's good or bad remains to be seen!). On a slightly related topic, can anyone help me sort out the wav file plug-in for Netscape 7? Every time I load up a page at the Lab site, Netscape opens up a "plug-finder" web page, which then utterly fails to find a plug-in for wav files on Win ME. It does this for *every* page at the site, which is a real pain, because I think the jaunting sound is a nice gimmick and I'd like to be able to hear it. Any tips? Chris -- The Reverend Doctor "The Other Chris" Secret Elf, Jive Talkin' Choirboy, God of Cowboy Spurs ICQ # 4814586 Daleks! 3D - http://users.rcn.com/otherchris/ Time War RPG - http://jump.to/TimeWar alt.tv.sevendays FAQ - http://welcome.to/7-Days The TOC Files - http://members.fortunecity.com/toc ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: "John A. Merullo" Subject: Re: TPDIS: The Lab is updated Date: 17 Nov 2002 01:21:34 -0600 Shaun, Thank you for for maintaining such a wonderful site! As someone just getting into TP fandom after thinking for so long that he was one of about five people on earth who even remembered the show, it's so nice to have great Web sites (such as yours, Jackie's, Beth's, etc.) to turn to for my TP fix. Thanks again, John :-<)> Shaun Hately wrote: >My Tomorrow People webpages at >http://www.alphalink.com.au/~drednort/thelab.html have been updated. > >Additions include > >* A general review of the Tomorrow People DVDs >* Excerpts from Volume 4 of The Decline and Fall of the Roman Empire by Edward >Gibbon, that refer to the historical factional struggle in Constantinople, referenced >by TIM in The Blue and The Green (much easier to read than all six volumes - just >ask Stephen). >* Images of Wood Lane Underground station (used for filming of exterior scenes of >The Lab) - announced last week >* Scans of my notes used in writing my fanfic Amalgamation (might be of interest to >someone). > >Yours Without Wax, Dreadnought >Shaun Hately |webpage: http://www.alphalink.com.au/~drednort/thelab.html >(ISTJ) |email: drednort@alphalink.com.au | ICQ: 6898200 >"You know the very powerful and the very stupid have one thing in >common. They don't alter their views to fit the facts. They alter >the facts to fit the views. Which can be uncomfortable if you happen >to be one of the facts that need altering." The Doctor - Doctor Who: >The Face of Evil | Where am I: Frankston, Victoria, Australia > > > >. > ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: "John A. Merullo" Subject: TPDIS: DVD players Date: 18 Nov 2002 19:19:06 -0600 I'm certain this has been discussed here quite a bit, but for the sake of the dense newbie, what does anyone else out there recommend for procuring a multi-regional DVD player here in the US of A so I can start collecting the TP DVDs? I've done some Internet searches, but does anyone have personal experience? You may reply off-list if you prefer. Thanks, John ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: CMento6653@aol.com Subject: Re: TPDIS: DVD players Date: 18 Nov 2002 20:26:18 EST --part1_109.1bedd645.2b0aed3a_boundary Content-Type: text/plain; charset="US-ASCII" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit haven't set mine up yet but I did get one from INTERNATIONAL VIDEO AND ELECTRONICS on line and a Sampo for dvd. I also was able to get it during a sale for less than 150 or so. And they have multi region vcrs too. --part1_109.1bedd645.2b0aed3a_boundary Content-Type: text/html; charset="US-ASCII" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit haven't set mine up yet but I did get one from INTERNATIONAL VIDEO AND ELECTRONICS on line and a Sampo for dvd. I also was able to get it during a sale for less than 150 or so. And they have multi region vcrs too. --part1_109.1bedd645.2b0aed3a_boundary-- ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: "Scott S. Goldman" Subject: Re: TPDIS: DVD players Date: 18 Nov 2002 20:44:45 -0500 --=======3AC27D4C======= Content-Type: text/plain; x-avg-checked=avg-ok-414754DD; charset=us-ascii; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit At the risk of sounding like a broken record (record: like a cd, only made of vinyl and played with a needle) Definitely get and APEX! I have a AD-660, but the 1100 or the 1500 is out there and they are CHEAP!... They are not -ahem- multi-regional, but TTP dvd's have been all region 0 (all regions) and these players will play a pal dvd on an ntsc screen... I have been completely happy! Scott At 07:19 PM 11/18/2002 -0600, you wrote: >I'm certain this has been discussed here quite a bit, but for the sake of >the dense newbie, what does anyone else out there recommend for procuring >a multi-regional DVD player here in the US of A so I can start collecting >the TP DVDs? I've done some Internet searches, but does anyone have >personal experience? You may reply off-list if you prefer. > >Thanks, >John > > > > --=======3AC27D4C======= Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii; x-avg=cert; x-avg-checked=avg-ok-414754DD Content-Disposition: inline --- Outgoing mail is certified Virus Free. Checked by AVG anti-virus system (http://www.grisoft.com). Version: 6.0.410 / Virus Database: 231 - Release Date: 10/31/2002 --=======3AC27D4C=======-- ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: Doctor TOC Subject: Re: TPDIS: DVD players Date: 18 Nov 2002 21:19:29 -0500 Scott S. Goldman wrote: > > Definitely get and APEX! I have a AD-660, but the 1100 or the 1500 is > out there and they are CHEAP!... They are not -ahem- multi-regional, but > TTP dvd's have been all region 0 (all regions) and these players will > play a pal dvd on an ntsc screen... You'll have to excuse my density in such matters, but does that mean you don't need an adapter? Chris -- The Reverend Doctor "The Other Chris" Secret Elf, Jive Talkin' Choirboy, God of Cowboy Spurs ICQ # 4814586 Daleks! 3D - http://users.rcn.com/otherchris/ Time War RPG - http://jump.to/TimeWar alt.tv.sevendays FAQ - http://welcome.to/7-Days The TOC Files - http://members.fortunecity.com/toc ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: "Scott S. Goldman" Subject: Re: TPDIS: DVD players Date: 19 Nov 2002 08:21:46 -0500 --=======19FC1DB1======= Content-Type: text/plain; x-avg-checked=avg-ok-2F6230F0; charset=us-ascii; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit You don't need anything else... Except a TV (or vcr) that take video in... Be careful if you use a vcr.. the macromedia copy protection sometimes has a cow... thankfully no macromedia on ttp dvds... and for a price of about 50 bucks (best buys or circuit city), you really can't go wrong! - Get a pal dvd (order a TP dvd) and go to the store and try it! I was told that if a player plays vcd's then 99% it plays pal... the ad-1600 is about 90 good luck! At 09:19 PM 11/18/2002 -0500, you wrote: >Scott S. Goldman wrote: >>Definitely get and APEX! I have a AD-660, but the 1100 or the 1500 is out >>there and they are CHEAP!... They are not -ahem- multi-regional, but TTP >>dvd's have been all region 0 (all regions) and these players will play a >>pal dvd on an ntsc screen... > >You'll have to excuse my density in such matters, but does that mean you >don't need an adapter? > >Chris >-- >The Reverend Doctor "The Other Chris" >Secret Elf, Jive Talkin' Choirboy, God of Cowboy Spurs >ICQ # 4814586 >Daleks! 3D - http://users.rcn.com/otherchris/ >Time War RPG - http://jump.to/TimeWar >alt.tv.sevendays FAQ - http://welcome.to/7-Days >The TOC Files - http://members.fortunecity.com/toc > > > > --=======19FC1DB1======= Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii; x-avg=cert; x-avg-checked=avg-ok-2F6230F0 Content-Disposition: inline --- Outgoing mail is certified Virus Free. Checked by AVG anti-virus system (http://www.grisoft.com). Version: 6.0.410 / Virus Database: 231 - Release Date: 10/31/2002 --=======19FC1DB1=======-- ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: Beth E. Subject: Re: TPDIS: DVD players Date: 19 Nov 2002 09:58:48 -0600 On Tuesday, November 19, 2002, at 07:21 AM, Scott S. Goldman wrote: > I was told that if a player plays vcd's then 99% it plays pal... > the ad-1600 is about 90 Mine plays VCDS, but I put a TP DVD in there and it basically told me my TV was crazy. Just because it can *play* it doesn't mean it can *convert* it. (I bet if I hooked it up to a multiformat or PAL TV it would work-- my 'puter plays the TP stuff no problem though.) Tigger ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: Michael Matott Subject: Re: TPDIS: DVD players Date: 19 Nov 2002 09:22:12 -0800 (PST) Love my APEX as well. It works better than my previous DVD player at 1/3 the cost. The PAL to NTSC conversion is automatic, you don't even have to worry about setting a menu option. You don't need to disable region encoding for the TP DVDs, but if you are the type of person who likes other non-region 1 DVDs there are ways around the region encoding.... mike --- "Scott S. Goldman" wrote: > At the risk of sounding like a broken record > (record: like a cd, only made > of vinyl and played with a needle) > > Definitely get and APEX! I have a AD-660, but the > 1100 or the 1500 is out > there and they are CHEAP!... They are not -ahem- > multi-regional, but TTP > dvd's have been all region 0 (all regions) and these > players will play a > pal dvd on an ntsc screen... > > I have been completely happy! > > Scott > > At 07:19 PM 11/18/2002 -0600, you wrote: > > >I'm certain this has been discussed here quite a > bit, but for the sake of > >the dense newbie, what does anyone else out there > recommend for procuring > >a multi-regional DVD player here in the US of A so > I can start collecting > >the TP DVDs? I've done some Internet searches, but > does anyone have > >personal experience? You may reply off-list if you > prefer. > > > >Thanks, > >John > > > > > > > > > > > --- > Outgoing mail is certified Virus Free. > Checked by AVG anti-virus system > (http://www.grisoft.com). > Version: 6.0.410 / Virus Database: 231 - Release > Date: 10/31/2002 > __________________________________________________ Do you Yahoo!? Yahoo! Web Hosting - Let the expert host your site http://webhosting.yahoo.com ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: "Scott S. Goldman" Subject: Re: TPDIS: DVD players Date: 19 Nov 2002 19:31:48 -0500 --=======2BB2155======= Content-Type: text/plain; x-avg-checked=avg-ok-40DF6DE5; charset=us-ascii; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit As I said, I was told - no independent verification which is why I suggested Doctor TOC buy a dvd and try it in a store... AFAIK it may just be a function of the apex units. At 09:58 AM 11/19/2002 -0600, you wrote: >On Tuesday, November 19, 2002, at 07:21 AM, Scott S. Goldman wrote: > >>I was told that if a player plays vcd's then 99% it plays pal... >>the ad-1600 is about 90 > >Mine plays VCDS, but I put a TP DVD in there and it basically told me my >TV was crazy. Just because it can *play* it doesn't mean it can *convert* >it. (I bet if I hooked it up to a multiformat or PAL TV it would work-- >my 'puter plays the TP stuff no problem though.) >Tigger > > > > --=======2BB2155======= Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii; x-avg=cert; x-avg-checked=avg-ok-40DF6DE5 Content-Disposition: inline --- Outgoing mail is certified Virus Free. Checked by AVG anti-virus system (http://www.grisoft.com). Version: 6.0.410 / Virus Database: 231 - Release Date: 10/31/2002 --=======2BB2155=======-- ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: ade Subject: Re: TPDIS: DVD players Date: 19 Nov 2002 19:41:14 -0500 I found this on Amazon: http://www.amazon.com/exec/obidos/ASIN/B0000658CG/qid=1037752952/sr=2-2/ref=sr_2_2/104-5648511-5459909 This is the 1600 - Sounds like a deal to me. And it will play PAL according to the specs. "Scott S. Goldman" wrote: > > At the risk of sounding like a broken record (record: like a cd, only made > of vinyl and played with a needle) > > Definitely get and APEX! I have a AD-660, but the 1100 or the 1500 is out > there and they are CHEAP!... They are not -ahem- multi-regional, but TTP > dvd's have been all region 0 (all regions) and these players will play a > pal dvd on an ntsc screen... > > I have been completely happy! > > Scott > > At 07:19 PM 11/18/2002 -0600, you wrote: > > >I'm certain this has been discussed here quite a bit, but for the sake of > >the dense newbie, what does anyone else out there recommend for procuring > >a multi-regional DVD player here in the US of A so I can start collecting > >the TP DVDs? I've done some Internet searches, but does anyone have > >personal experience? You may reply off-list if you prefer. > > > >Thanks, > >John > > > > > > > > > > ------------------------------------------------------------------------ > > --- > Outgoing mail is certified Virus Free. > Checked by AVG anti-virus system (http://www.grisoft.com). > Version: 6.0.410 / Virus Database: 231 - Release Date: 10/31/2002 ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: Doctor TOC Subject: TPDIS: How do the Jaunting Belts work? Date: 19 Nov 2002 23:37:53 -0500 Hi folks, Been quiet the last few days because I'm ill, but I've been wondering about the Jaunting Belt technology and how it actually works. We're told in the series that the belts are needed for navigation, and to boost the TP's range. I take this to mean that they improve a TP's accuracy over long distances (after all, the further you travel, the greater the area you could appear in) and the larger the possible margin for error). Now, what I'm wondering is how they actually do that. Whenever a TP used a belt, they just held the buckle and jaunted. No pushing buttons or entering co-ordinates manually. My theory is that the belts use some sort of cybernetic contact to take the destination data directly from the mind of the TP, do the necessary calculations, then feed that data back to the TP's mind, guiding him or her to the right location. We know that the TP's have mind-to-machine technology - the crystals they used to telepath to TIM in the first story are evidence of that. Another possible theory is that the belts are linked to TIM directly, and that he uses them to guide the TPs to the right locations. Evidence against this would include times when the TP's have been out of contact with TIM, or TIM has been disabled, but they have still used the belts. Can anyone recall such an event taking place? My personal feeling is that the belts allow a TP to jaunt to a location which he or she hasn't seen or been to before, but again I don't have any tapes of the OS and so don't know if there's any evidence to back this up. I think that without a belt, a TP could only safely jaunt to locations that he or she can see, or is familiar with, or is guided to by a telepathic signal. What do you guys think? Oh, one last thing. Did Peter the Time Guardian use a belt or similar device? cheers, Chris the Coughing Cavalier -- The Reverend Doctor "The Other Chris" Secret Elf, Jive Talkin' Choirboy, God of Cowboy Spurs ICQ # 4814586 Daleks! 3D - http://users.rcn.com/otherchris/ Time War RPG - http://jump.to/TimeWar alt.tv.sevendays FAQ - http://welcome.to/7-Days The TOC Files - http://members.fortunecity.com/toc ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: "Scott S. Goldman" Subject: Re: TPDIS: How do the Jaunting Belts work? Date: 20 Nov 2002 01:43:59 -0500 --=======28707ABA======= Content-Type: text/plain; x-avg-checked=avg-ok-2F6F544; charset=us-ascii; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit To answer your last question first, I don't think Peter used any devices (except for the time disc) (although I haven't watched RIT yet) But to point..I seem to remember during B&G that Stephen tells Liz something along the lines that Tim makes sure the coast is clear. So at the very least we know there is some 'low-level' communication between Tim and the jaunter. On the other hand, in SOJ, Tim actually says out loud 'We'll just wait until..." the coast is clear or something like that... Also in SOJ, I got the impression the Jaunting Belts help not only with 'power' (John's comments while he and Carol are in hyperspace) and the mathematical calculations themselves And as usually, I don't think I really helped answer your question... At 11:37 PM 11/19/2002 -0500, you wrote: >Hi folks, > Been quiet the last few days because I'm ill, but I've been wondering > about the Jaunting Belt technology and how it actually works. > >We're told in the series that the belts are needed for navigation, and to >boost the TP's range. I take this to mean that they improve a TP's >accuracy over long distances (after all, the further you travel, the >greater the area you could appear in) and the larger the possible margin >for error). > >Now, what I'm wondering is how they actually do that. Whenever a TP used a >belt, they just held the buckle and jaunted. No pushing buttons or >entering co-ordinates manually. My theory is that the belts use some sort >of cybernetic contact to take the destination data directly from the mind >of the TP, do the necessary calculations, then feed that data back to the >TP's mind, guiding him or her to the right location. We know that the TP's >have mind-to-machine technology - the crystals they used to telepath to >TIM in the first story are evidence of that. > >Another possible theory is that the belts are linked to TIM directly, and >that he uses them to guide the TPs to the right locations. Evidence >against this would include times when the TP's have been out of contact >with TIM, or TIM has been disabled, but they have still used the belts. >Can anyone recall such an event taking place? > >My personal feeling is that the belts allow a TP to jaunt to a location >which he or she hasn't seen or been to before, but again I don't have any >tapes of the OS and so don't know if there's any evidence to back this up. >I think that without a belt, a TP could only safely jaunt to locations >that he or she can see, or is familiar with, or is guided to by a >telepathic signal. What do you guys think? > >Oh, one last thing. Did Peter the Time Guardian use a belt or similar device? > >cheers, > >Chris the Coughing Cavalier >-- >The Reverend Doctor "The Other Chris" >Secret Elf, Jive Talkin' Choirboy, God of Cowboy Spurs >ICQ # 4814586 >Daleks! 3D - http://users.rcn.com/otherchris/ >Time War RPG - http://jump.to/TimeWar >alt.tv.sevendays FAQ - http://welcome.to/7-Days >The TOC Files - http://members.fortunecity.com/toc > > > > --=======28707ABA======= Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii; x-avg=cert; x-avg-checked=avg-ok-2F6F544 Content-Disposition: inline --- Outgoing mail is certified Virus Free. Checked by AVG anti-virus system (http://www.grisoft.com). Version: 6.0.410 / Virus Database: 231 - Release Date: 10/31/2002 --=======28707ABA=======-- ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: "Aaron Propes" Subject: TPDIS: New Cover Art! Date: 20 Nov 2002 14:33:55 -0600 (CST) Anyone check out the new cover art for A New Atlantis? It's at http://www.bigfinish.com/tpeople/tp05_anewatlantis.htm Best yet, in my opinion. Aaron (same as alpropes@bitstream.net - just changing addresses) --- Aaron Lee Propes The Tomorrow People Audio Reviews - http://www2.bitstream.net/~alpropes/tp ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: "Jackie Clark" Subject: Re: TPDIS: New Cover Art! Date: 20 Nov 2002 20:41:30 -0000 Wow! This is really cool and looks like they've put a lot of effort into the design... I only hope the story is as good ;-) Jackie ----- Original Message ----- Sent: Wednesday, November 20, 2002 8:33 PM > Anyone check out the new cover art for A New Atlantis? It's at > http://www.bigfinish.com/tpeople/tp05_anewatlantis.htm > > Best yet, in my opinion. > > Aaron > (same as alpropes@bitstream.net - just changing addresses) > > --- > Aaron Lee Propes > The Tomorrow People Audio Reviews - http://www2.bitstream.net/~alpropes/tp > > > > ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: Doctor TOC Subject: Re: TPDIS: New Cover Art! Date: 21 Nov 2002 00:25:07 -0500 Aaron Propes wrote: > Anyone check out the new cover art for A New Atlantis? It's at > http://www.bigfinish.com/tpeople/tp05_anewatlantis.htm > > Best yet, in my opinion. Very nice. The description sounds interesting. I wonder if they're tying this to the mysterious girl John saw and heard in "Sign of Diolyx". Chris -- The Reverend Doctor "The Other Chris" Secret Elf, Jive Talkin' Choirboy, God of Cowboy Spurs ICQ # 4814586 Daleks! 3D - http://users.rcn.com/otherchris/ Time War RPG - http://jump.to/TimeWar alt.tv.sevendays FAQ - http://welcome.to/7-Days The TOC Files - http://members.fortunecity.com/toc ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: Doctor TOC Subject: TPDIS: OS references in NS books Date: 21 Nov 2002 00:34:07 -0500 Having just scored a copy of the novelisation of "The Living Stones", I was surprised to see mention of the Galactic Trig on the very first page, as well as hints that Adam had contact with extra-terrestrials before he met the others. I've only read one other NS book, "Monsoon Man", though I've got a copy of "The Culex Experiment" on the way to me from the UK, so I was wondering if there were any other references to the OS or the OS continuity in the NS books. Anyone? I have to say I was also rather surprised at the ending, which takes on a rather ominous tone considering it was the last story in the series. Chris -- The Reverend Doctor "The Other Chris" Secret Elf, Jive Talkin' Choirboy, God of Cowboy Spurs ICQ # 4814586 Daleks! 3D - http://users.rcn.com/otherchris/ Time War RPG - http://jump.to/TimeWar alt.tv.sevendays FAQ - http://welcome.to/7-Days The TOC Files - http://members.fortunecity.com/toc ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: "Rachel Lebeaux" Subject: Re: TPDIS: OS references in NS books Date: 21 Nov 2002 00:40:53 -0500 I haven't posted to the list for awhile (though I read all the posts) but I had a question about the NS books too... I just found out for sure that I will be studying in London next semester -- it's been my dream since I first saw The Tomorrow People (NS) when I was ten years old and now it's really happening : ) That's my happy news, and it's an indication of what a large part this show continues to play in my life. So, speaking of the NS novels, are they easier to obtain in England than in the US? If I were to walk into a sci-fi -- or even a regular -- bookseller, would it be likely that he or she would have the books on hand or could order them for me? Thanks so much -- I leave for London New Year's Day and I may have more TP-related questions before then ; ) Rachel : ) ----- Original Message ----- Sent: Thursday, November 21, 2002 12:34 AM > Having just scored a copy of the novelisation of "The Living Stones", I > was surprised to see mention of the Galactic Trig on the very first > page, as well as hints that Adam had contact with extra-terrestrials > before he met the others. I've only read one other NS book, "Monsoon > Man", though I've got a copy of "The Culex Experiment" on the way to me > from the UK, so I was wondering if there were any other references to > the OS or the OS continuity in the NS books. Anyone? > > I have to say I was also rather surprised at the ending, which takes on > a rather ominous tone considering it was the last story in the series. > > Chris > -- > The Reverend Doctor "The Other Chris" > Secret Elf, Jive Talkin' Choirboy, God of Cowboy Spurs > ICQ # 4814586 > Daleks! 3D - http://users.rcn.com/otherchris/ > Time War RPG - http://jump.to/TimeWar > alt.tv.sevendays FAQ - http://welcome.to/7-Days > The TOC Files - http://members.fortunecity.com/toc > > > ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: "Jackie Clark" Subject: Re: TPDIS: OS references in NS books Date: 21 Nov 2002 06:39:30 -0000 In answer to your question the best places to buy TP books is Ebay. They are out of print and you wont find them in the shops. You will find all the DVD's though which is great ;-) Jackie ----- Original Message ----- Sent: Thursday, November 21, 2002 5:40 AM > I haven't posted to the list for awhile (though I read all the posts) but I > had a question about the NS books too... > > I just found out for sure that I will be studying in London next semester -- > it's been my dream since I first saw The Tomorrow People (NS) when I was ten > years old and now it's really happening : ) That's my happy news, and it's > an indication of what a large part this show continues to play in my life. > > So, speaking of the NS novels, are they easier to obtain in England than in > the US? If I were to walk into a sci-fi -- or even a regular -- bookseller, > would it be likely that he or she would have the books on hand or could > order them for me? > > Thanks so much -- I leave for London New Year's Day and I may have more > TP-related questions before then ; ) > > Rachel : ) > > > ----- Original Message ----- > From: Doctor TOC > To: TP Dis > Sent: Thursday, November 21, 2002 12:34 AM > Subject: TPDIS: OS references in NS books > > > > Having just scored a copy of the novelisation of "The Living Stones", I > > was surprised to see mention of the Galactic Trig on the very first > > page, as well as hints that Adam had contact with extra-terrestrials > > before he met the others. I've only read one other NS book, "Monsoon > > Man", though I've got a copy of "The Culex Experiment" on the way to me > > from the UK, so I was wondering if there were any other references to > > the OS or the OS continuity in the NS books. Anyone? > > > > I have to say I was also rather surprised at the ending, which takes on > > a rather ominous tone considering it was the last story in the series. > > > > Chris > > -- > > The Reverend Doctor "The Other Chris" > > Secret Elf, Jive Talkin' Choirboy, God of Cowboy Spurs > > ICQ # 4814586 > > Daleks! 3D - http://users.rcn.com/otherchris/ > > Time War RPG - http://jump.to/TimeWar > > alt.tv.sevendays FAQ - http://welcome.to/7-Days > > The TOC Files - http://members.fortunecity.com/toc > > > > > > > > ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: "John A. Merullo" Subject: Re: TPDIS: DVD players Date: 21 Nov 2002 10:01:53 -0600 All, Thanks for your recommendations. My mom recently called to ask what I wanted for Christmas. Looks like there will be an Apex in my stocking! :-) Thanks again, John Just placed an order for the Series One Boxed Set! ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: starr@planet.eon.net Subject: Re: TPDIS: DVD players Date: 21 Nov 2002 08:17:42 -0800 Quoting "John A. Merullo" : > Thanks for your recommendations. My mom recently called to ask what I > wanted for Christmas. Looks like there will be an Apex in my stocking! :-) > > Thanks again, > John > Just placed an order for the Series One Boxed Set! Me too! After talking about it for months, I just placed my order (last night!) for both series 1 and series 2, and I just got a confirmation that the series 1 discs have been shipped. Blackstar does keep insisting the dvds are region 2, though - please reassure me that they are wrong :O -- Jane in Edmonton "Quick, Min! The wick's gone out on the engine!" - H. Crun (The Goon Show). ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: Beth E. Subject: Re: TPDIS: DVD players Date: 21 Nov 2002 10:34:49 -0600 On Thursday, November 21, 2002, at 10:17 AM, starr@planet.eon.net wrote: > Me too! After talking about it for months, I just placed my order (last > night!) for both series 1 and series 2, and I just got a confirmation > that the > series 1 discs have been shipped. Blackstar does keep insisting the > dvds are > region 2, though - please reassure me that they are wrong :) Thus far, Blackstar has always claimed they were region 2 and they have always shown up and been marked Region 0. *shrugs* That doesn't mean Revelation can't change its mind at any time -- but I doubt they will. Tigger ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: "John A. Merullo" Subject: Re: TPDIS: DVD players Date: 21 Nov 2002 11:31:53 -0600 starr@planet.eon.net wrote: >Quoting "John A. Merullo" : > >>Thanks for your recommendations. My mom recently called to ask what I >>wanted for Christmas. Looks like there will be an Apex in my stocking! :-) >> >>Thanks again, >>John >>Just placed an order for the Series One Boxed Set! >> > >Me too! After talking about it for months, I just placed my order (last >night!) for both series 1 and series 2, and I just got a confirmation that the >series 1 discs have been shipped. Blackstar does keep insisting the dvds are >region 2, though - please reassure me that they are wrong :O > Under "DVD Extras", the Blackstar page for each item says some variation of the following: Full episode guide. Character biographies. Picture gallery. Fact files. Commentary from Nicholas Young, Peter Vaughan-Clarke, Philip Gilbert (in some cases, Elizabeth Adare). Region 0. I think (or at least I hope) Revelation knows that TP has a loyal North American fan base and that would be quite distressed if they suddenly started to make the DVDs unavailable to us (and they would lose out on many sales).To borrow an expression I read somewhere, it's a quid pro quo, heavy emphasis on the "quid". ;-) John ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: Michael Matott Subject: Re: TPDIS: DVD players Date: 21 Nov 2002 12:49:44 -0800 (PST) --- starr@planet.eon.net wrote: > Quoting "John A. Merullo" : > > Thanks for your recommendations. My mom recently > called to ask what I > > wanted for Christmas. Looks like there will be an > Apex in my stocking! :-) > > > > Thanks again, > > John > > Just placed an order for the Series One Boxed Set! > > Me too! After talking about it for months, I just > placed my order (last > night!) for both series 1 and series 2, and I just > got a confirmation that the > series 1 discs have been shipped. Blackstar does > keep insisting the dvds are > region 2, though - please reassure me that they are > wrong :O > They are. I have all three serials from series 1 and they come up as Region 0 - even says it on the slipcase. Just make sure you have a way to convert PAL to NTSC. mike __________________________________________________ Do you Yahoo!? Yahoo! Mail Plus – Powerful. Affordable. Sign up now. http://mailplus.yahoo.com ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: Ryan Turner Subject: TPDIS: NS DVD question Date: 21 Nov 2002 13:35:38 -0800 (PST) Hi all. I have heard indications on this list that they may release new series DVDs if interest in the old series is high enough. *crosses fingers* Does anyone know if commentaries and the like would be in the cards for any such release?? That would be nifty :) Thanks! Ryan __________________________________________________ Do you Yahoo!? Yahoo! Mail Plus – Powerful. Affordable. Sign up now. http://mailplus.yahoo.com ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: starr@planet.eon.net Subject: Re: TPDIS: DVD players Date: 21 Nov 2002 13:38:55 -0800 Quoting Michael Matott : > Just make sure you have a way to convert PAL to NTSC. > Haven't got a DVD player at all yet, but that's next. Future Shop has the Apex 1200 for under $100 Canadian, which seems like a good deal. -- Jane in Edmonton "Quick, Min! The wick's gone out on the engine!" - H. Crun (The Goon Show). ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: Jeremy Rogers Subject: Re: TPDIS: OS references in NS books Date: 21 Nov 2002 22:23:09 GMT Doctor TOC in message <3DDC704F.5070908@erols.com> wrote: > I've only read one other NS book, "Monsoon > Man", though I've got a copy of "The Culex Experiment" on the way to me > from the UK, so I was wondering if there were any other references to > the OS or the OS continuity in the NS books. Anyone? Yes, although it is most open and full in Living Stones. Elsewhere it tends to be invented last names to match those of OS characters and other small nods. > I have to say I was also rather surprised at the ending, which takes on > a rather ominous tone considering it was the last story in the series. The book came out before the Nickelodeon cancellation, let alone the decision from CITV not to go on alone. Jez -- ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: KVDelano@aol.com Subject: Re: TPDIS: New Cover Art! Date: 21 Nov 2002 21:01:55 EST --part1_3e.27ed1b6a.2b0eea13_boundary Content-Type: text/plain; charset="US-ASCII" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit In a message dated 11/20/2002 3:34:40 PM Eastern Standard Time, aaron@interactivetheatre.org writes: > http://www.bigfinish.com/tpeople/tp05_anewatlantis.htm > is it just me or are the following theopening sequence by series. first hand then honeycomb? I wonder whose eye they will use when the time comes (if itcomes) Carol or Elizabeth? Karen --part1_3e.27ed1b6a.2b0eea13_boundary Content-Type: text/html; charset="US-ASCII" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit In a message dated 11/20/2002 3:34:40 PM Eastern Standard Time, aaron@interactivetheatre.org writes:

http://www.bigfinish.com/tpeople/tp05_anewatlantis.htm


is it just me or are the following theopening sequence by series.  first hand then honeycomb?  I wonder whose eye they will use when the time comes (if itcomes)  Carol or Elizabeth?
Karen --part1_3e.27ed1b6a.2b0eea13_boundary-- ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: CMento6653@aol.com Subject: Re: TPDIS: OS references in NS books Date: 21 Nov 2002 21:52:46 EST --part1_c8.308ec118.2b0ef5fe_boundary Content-Type: text/plain; charset="US-ASCII" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit In a message dated 11/21/02 12:29:18 AM Eastern Standard Time, otherchris@erols.com writes: > I have to say I was also rather surprised at the ending, which takes on > a rather ominous tone considering it was the last story in the series. > > What was this ending? Can you tell me with a spoiler of course? --part1_c8.308ec118.2b0ef5fe_boundary Content-Type: text/html; charset="US-ASCII" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit In a message dated 11/21/02 12:29:18 AM Eastern Standard Time, otherchris@erols.com writes:


I have to say I was also rather surprised at the ending, which takes on
a rather ominous tone considering it was the last story in the series.



What was this ending? Can you tell me with a spoiler of course? --part1_c8.308ec118.2b0ef5fe_boundary-- ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: Doctor TOC Subject: Re: TPDIS: OS references in NS books Date: 21 Nov 2002 23:09:41 -0500 CMento6653@aol.com wrote: > >> I have to say I was also rather surprised at the ending, which takes on >> a rather ominous tone considering it was the last story in the series. > > What was this ending? Can you tell me with a spoiler of course? Sure. Spoilerspace . . . . . . . . . (It's like hyperspace but with less colours) . . . . . . . . . After the TPs defeat the Nghara - parasitic aliens that arrive on earth in meteors - we are shown that they are just part of a larger whole, sharing a single mind. Alerted to the existence of the Tomorrow People, the Nghara realise that this new species has the kind of psychic energy that could sustain them for centuries, a true feast. The rest of the swarm of living meteors turns towards Earth, ready to arrive better prepared, and in far greater numbers than before...and that's where the story ends. Creepy, huh? I know that the fact that it was the last story was pure coincidence, but it's still a somewhat downbeat way to end the series. Doctor TOC -- The Reverend Doctor "The Other Chris" Secret Elf, Jive Talkin' Choirboy, God of Cowboy Spurs ICQ # 4814586 Daleks! 3D - http://users.rcn.com/otherchris/ Time War RPG - http://jump.to/TimeWar alt.tv.sevendays FAQ - http://welcome.to/7-Days The TOC Files - http://members.fortunecity.com/toc ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: Beth E. Subject: Re: TPDIS: OS references in NS books Date: 21 Nov 2002 23:14:51 -0600 On Thursday, November 21, 2002, at 10:09 PM, Doctor TOC wrote: > Creepy, huh? I know that the fact that it was the last story was pure > coincidence, but it's still a somewhat downbeat way to end the series. Not that the novelizations can be considered strictly canon-- don't forget, Mr. Robinson seems rather insistent that Adam is a blond. Tigger ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: KVDelano@aol.com Subject: TPDIS: Belt Kit Date: 26 Nov 2002 09:34:56 -0500 I was looking in the Lillian Vernon toy catalog and saw a create your own rhinestone belt buckle kit, and I wondered if something like that that could be used to make a TP belt. I don't think the belt/rhinestones would be the right dimensions to make the TP belt (the rhinestone settings on the buckle are set in five rows of 8, so it would be difficult to fit the three rows of the TP belt on to it. But maybe there is something similar out there, that could work. So keep your eyes peeled, in of ya'll who want a belt. Karen ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: KVDelano@aol.com Subject: TPDIS: Belt Kit Date: 26 Nov 2002 09:32:48 -0500 I was looking in the Lillian Vernon toy catalog and saw a create your own rhinestone belt buckle kit, and I wondered if something like that that could be used to make a TP belt. I don't think the belt/rhinestones would be the right dimensions to make the TP belt (the rhinestone settings on the buckle are set in five rows of 8, so it would be difficult to fit the three rows of the TP belt on to it. But maybe there is something similar out there, that could work. So keep your eyes peeled, in of ya'll who want a belt. Karen ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: KVDelano@aol.com Subject: TPDIS: Belt Kit Date: 26 Nov 2002 09:41:06 -0500 I was looking in the Lillian Vernon toy catalog and saw a create your own rhinestone belt buckle kit, and I wondered if something like that that could be used to make a TP belt. I don't think the belt/rhinestones would be the right dimensions to make the TP belt (the rhinestone settings on the buckle are set in five rows of 8, so it would be difficult to fit the three rows of the TP belt on to it. But maybe there is something similar out there, that could work. So keep your eyes peeled, in of ya'll who want a belt. Karen ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: "Jackie Clark" Subject: TPDIS: Doomsday men Date: 26 Nov 2002 19:54:56 -0000 I was getting concerned why I hadn't received my pre-ordered DVD from Blackstar and checked their site for details. They have a notice saying that this item has been deleted from the catalogue but they may be able to ship it in from overseas... most curious. Has anyone else managed to get hold of it as a single disc not included with the box set? Amazon are showing a two week order period too! Jackie ---- "May your senses be enlightened and your dreams be fulfilled." Traditional Manyarnern Greeting http://www.effdee.demon.co.uk/HomeFrameset-1.htm http://www.The-Tomorrow-People.co.uk ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: KVDelano@aol.com Subject: Re: TPDIS: Belt Kit Date: 26 Nov 2002 21:34:15 EST --part1_188.11959c13.2b158927_boundary Content-Type: text/plain; charset="US-ASCII" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sorry about the multiple posting, AOL is freaking out on me. Karen --part1_188.11959c13.2b158927_boundary Content-Type: text/html; charset="US-ASCII" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sorry about the multiple posting, AOL is freaking out on me.
Karen --part1_188.11959c13.2b158927_boundary-- ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: "Warren Hillsdon" Subject: RE: TPDIS: Doomsday men Date: 28 Nov 2002 08:07:48 +1100 Jackie, My boxset from Amazon actually got cancelled. So I don't know what is going on there. Warren -----Original Message----- [mailto:owner-tpdis@lists.xmission.com] On Behalf Of Jackie Clark Sent: Wednesday, 27 November 2002 6:55 AM I was getting concerned why I hadn't received my pre-ordered DVD from Blackstar and checked their site for details. They have a notice saying that this item has been deleted from the catalogue but they may be able to ship it in from overseas... most curious. Has anyone else managed to get hold of it as a single disc not included with the box set? Amazon are showing a two week order period too! Jackie ---- "May your senses be enlightened and your dreams be fulfilled." Traditional Manyarnern Greeting http://www.effdee.demon.co.uk/HomeFrameset-1.htm http://www.The-Tomorrow-People.co.uk ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: ade Subject: Re: TPDIS: Doomsday men Date: 27 Nov 2002 17:49:38 -0500 Has anyone written these vendors to ask why? Warren Hillsdon wrote: > > Jackie, > > My boxset from Amazon actually got cancelled. > > So I don't know what is going on there. > > Warren > > -----Original Message----- > From: owner-tpdis@lists.xmission.com > [mailto:owner-tpdis@lists.xmission.com] On Behalf Of Jackie Clark > Sent: Wednesday, 27 November 2002 6:55 AM > To: tpdis@lists.xmission.com > Subject: TPDIS: Doomsday men > > I was getting concerned why I hadn't received my pre-ordered DVD from > Blackstar and checked their site for details. They have a notice saying > that > this item has been deleted from the catalogue but they may be able to > ship > it in from overseas... most curious. Has anyone else managed to get hold > of > it as a single disc not included with the box set? > > Amazon are showing a two week order period too! > > Jackie > ---- > "May your senses be enlightened and your dreams be fulfilled." > Traditional Manyarnern > Greeting > http://www.effdee.demon.co.uk/HomeFrameset-1.htm > > http://www.The-Tomorrow-People.co.uk ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: "Jackie Clark" Subject: Re: TPDIS: Doomsday men Date: 28 Nov 2002 06:37:38 -0000 > Has anyone written these vendors to ask why? > I have contacted Blackstar and they said that it was pulled by the distributor who own the rights to the program. I thought that maybe sales on the boxed sets were bad so they decided to delay the release but if that has been withdrawn too I can only speculate wildly hehe Perhaps something said on the commentary has caused a law suit? or maybe there are copyright issues which are unresolved? or perhaps technical problem? or maybe that kilt and underwear scene was just too controversial for the sensitive souls at revelation.... lol - J ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: "John A. Merullo" Subject: Re: TPDIS: Doomsday men Date: 28 Nov 2002 00:57:35 -0600 Jackie Clark wrote: > > >>Has anyone written these vendors to ask why? >> > >I have contacted Blackstar and they said that it was pulled by the >distributor who own the rights to the program. I thought that maybe sales on >the boxed sets were bad so they decided to delay the release but if that has >been withdrawn too I can only speculate wildly hehe > >Perhaps something said on the commentary has caused a law suit? or maybe >there are copyright issues which are unresolved? or perhaps technical >problem? or maybe that kilt and underwear scene was just too controversial >for the sensitive souls at revelation.... lol > >- J > Blackstar's page for the boxed set for series two doesn't say a thing about it being deleted, but it doesn't say it's in stock either. I hope this is only a temporary delay. I've got my DVD player (converts PAL to NTSC) and the series one boxed set on order! Heavy sigh, John John ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: "E.R. Stanway" Subject: Re: TPDIS: Doomsday men Date: 28 Nov 2002 09:12:06 +0000 (GMT) I got a copy of the boxset a month or so ago because for some bizarre reason the high street chain MVC had them out on the shelves. I have to say I thought that a lot of people would find the commentary on Doomsday Men quite offensive - I was shocked by it. I wouldn't be surprised if that was why it was pulled but I'd like to know for sure. It would be a shame if that was the reason because even if I didn't like what the actors were saying in the commentary I cant help feeling that censoring it would be wrong. Elizabeth ___________________________________________________________________ Elizabeth Stanway ers24@cam.ac.uk http://www.geocities.com/CapeCanaveral/8403 "If I have seen further than most men, it is by standing on the shoulders of giants." ___________________________________________________________________ ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: jpannell Subject: Re: Re: TPDIS: Doomsday men Date: 28 Nov 2002 01:26:19 -0800 (PST) What did the actors have to say that was so offensive? >On Thu, 28 Nov 2002 09:12:06 0000 (GMT) "E.R. Stanway" wrote. >I got a copy of the boxset a month or so ago because for some bizarre >reason the high street chain MVC had them out on the shelves. > >I have to say I thought that a lot of people would find the commentary on >Doomsday Men quite offensive - I was shocked by it. > >I wouldn't be surprised if that was why it was pulled but I'd like to know >for sure. It would be a shame if that was the reason because even if I >didn't like what the actors were saying in the commentary I cant help >feeling that censoring it would be wrong. > >Elizabeth >___________________________________________________________________ >Elizabeth Stanway >ers24@cam.ac.uk >http://www.geocities.com/CapeCanaveral/8403 >"If I have seen further than most men, it is by standing on the shoulders >of giants." >___________________________________________________________________ > > > ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: "E.R. Stanway" Subject: Re: Re: TPDIS: Doomsday men Date: 28 Nov 2002 09:30:25 +0000 (GMT) On Thu, 28 Nov 2002, jpannell wrote: > What did the actors have to say that was so offensive? > > It was probably just me but I felt that they were quite offensive to homosexuals, people of oriental origin and a couple of other groups of people. They made some jokes that were in quite bad taste and both Elizabeth Adare and Nicholas Briggs seemed a little shocked to the extent of disassociating themselves from what was being said (albeit in a joking manner). Maybe I just cant take a joke but I think if I was surprised and disgruntled other people might be too. ___________________________________________________________________ Elizabeth Stanway ers24@cam.ac.uk http://www.geocities.com/CapeCanaveral/8403 "If I have seen further than most men, it is by standing on the shoulders of giants." ___________________________________________________________________ ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: jpannell Subject: Re: Re: Re: TPDIS: Doomsday men Date: 28 Nov 2002 01:41:43 -0800 (PST) >On Thu, 28 Nov 2002 09:30:25 0000 (GMT) "E.R. Stanway" wrote. >On Thu, 28 Nov 2002, jpannell wrote: > >> What did the actors have to say that was so offensive? >> >> >It was probably just me but I felt that they were quite offensive to >homosexuals, people of oriental origin and a couple of other groups of >people. They made some jokes that were in quite bad taste and both >Elizabeth Adare and Nicholas Briggs seemed a little shocked to the extent >of disassociating themselves from what was being said (albeit in a joking >manner). > That explains much... especially in light of the recent proposal by one your government's ministers to ban the use of the word "homosexual". I guess this has become a hot issue there in the UK?? ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: "E.R. Stanway" Subject: Re: Re: Re: TPDIS: Doomsday men Date: 28 Nov 2002 09:48:07 +0000 (GMT) On Thu, 28 Nov 2002, jpannell wrote: > That explains much... especially in light of the recent proposal by one > your government's ministers to ban the use of the word "homosexual". I > guess this has become a hot issue there in the UK?? > No more so than it has been for the last ten years I would have said. I wasn't even aware of the proposed ban you mention! If anyone else out there has listened to that commentary though I'd be interested to hear what you thought of it. Elizabeth ___________________________________________________________________ Elizabeth Stanway ers24@cam.ac.uk http://www.geocities.com/CapeCanaveral/8403 "If I have seen further than most men, it is by standing on the shoulders of giants." ___________________________________________________________________ ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: CMento6653@aol.com Subject: Re: TPDIS: Doomsday men Date: 28 Nov 2002 06:10:30 EST --part1_11f.1a76e24d.2b1753a6_boundary Content-Type: text/plain; charset="US-ASCII" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit My TV ZONE shows that in January they will release SLAVES OF JEDIKIAH and following months will release MEDUSA STRAIN and VANISHING EARTH? What the heck? --part1_11f.1a76e24d.2b1753a6_boundary Content-Type: text/html; charset="US-ASCII" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit My TV ZONE shows that in January they will release SLAVES OF JEDIKIAH and following months will release MEDUSA STRAIN and VANISHING EARTH? What the heck? --part1_11f.1a76e24d.2b1753a6_boundary-- ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: CMento6653@aol.com Subject: Re: TPDIS: Doomsday men Date: 28 Nov 2002 06:11:10 EST --part1_127.1ba179ca.2b1753ce_boundary Content-Type: text/plain; charset="US-ASCII" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit In a message dated 11/28/02 4:12:46 AM Eastern Standard Time, ers24@hermes.cam.ac.uk writes: > have to say I thought that a lot of people would find the commentary on > Doomsday Men quite offensive - I was shocked by it. > > Can you tell me why or tell us why? --part1_127.1ba179ca.2b1753ce_boundary Content-Type: text/html; charset="US-ASCII" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit In a message dated 11/28/02 4:12:46 AM Eastern Standard Time, ers24@hermes.cam.ac.uk writes:


have to say I thought that a lot of people would find the commentary on
Doomsday Men quite offensive - I was shocked by it.



Can you tell me why or tell us why? --part1_127.1ba179ca.2b1753ce_boundary-- ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: "John A. Merullo" Subject: Re: TPDIS: Doomsday men Date: 28 Nov 2002 08:27:35 -0600 E.R. Stanway wrote: >On Thu, 28 Nov 2002, jpannell wrote: > >>What did the actors have to say that was so offensive? >> >> >It was probably just me but I felt that they were quite offensive to >homosexuals, people of oriental origin and a couple of other groups of >people. They made some jokes that were in quite bad taste and both >Elizabeth Adare and Nicholas Briggs seemed a little shocked to the extent >of disassociating themselves from what was being said (albeit in a joking >manner). > I'll have to hear this for myself (eventually). I can't speak for all gay people, but as a gay man myself, I find I'm not always offended by "gay jokes". Leaving the TP ideals of tolerance out of it, I'm surprised that anyone in the arts could seriously have a problem with people different from themselves. John > >Maybe I just cant take a joke but I think if I was surprised and >disgruntled other people might be too. > >___________________________________________________________________ >Elizabeth Stanway >ers24@cam.ac.uk >http://www.geocities.com/CapeCanaveral/8403 >"If I have seen further than most men, it is by standing on the shoulders >of giants." >___________________________________________________________________ > > > > >. > ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: ade Subject: Re: TPDIS: Doomsday men Date: 28 Nov 2002 11:12:16 -0500 I wrote them and got this: "Unfortunately, it seems that a number of that have actually been removed from the release schedule here in the UK..:-( Therefore, it does look like a number of these are being removed from sale..:-( We will of course update the site with any information that we do received." It isn't nearly as specific as the earlier response. I know someone at the distributor, so I will send a note there next ;) "John A. Merullo" wrote: > > Jackie Clark wrote: > > > > > > >>Has anyone written these vendors to ask why? > >> > > > >I have contacted Blackstar and they said that it was pulled by the > >distributor who own the rights to the program. I thought that maybe sales on > >the boxed sets were bad so they decided to delay the release but if that has > >been withdrawn too I can only speculate wildly hehe > > > >Perhaps something said on the commentary has caused a law suit? or maybe > >there are copyright issues which are unresolved? or perhaps technical > >problem? or maybe that kilt and underwear scene was just too controversial > >for the sensitive souls at revelation.... lol > > > >- J > > > Blackstar's page for the boxed set for series two doesn't say a thing > about it being deleted, but it doesn't say it's in stock either. I hope > this is only a temporary delay. I've got my DVD player (converts PAL to > NTSC) and the series one boxed set on order! > > Heavy sigh, > John > > John ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: CMento6653@aol.com Subject: Re: TPDIS: Doomsday men Date: 28 Nov 2002 13:29:23 EST --part1_152.18150533.2b17ba83_boundary Content-Type: text/plain; charset="US-ASCII" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit In a message dated 11/28/02 9:27:11 AM Eastern Standard Time, rockhopper@ev1.net writes: > arts could seriously have a problem with people > different from themselves. > > Well maybe not so different. --part1_152.18150533.2b17ba83_boundary Content-Type: text/html; charset="US-ASCII" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit In a message dated 11/28/02 9:27:11 AM Eastern Standard Time, rockhopper@ev1.net writes:


arts could seriously have a problem with people
different from themselves.



Well maybe not so different. --part1_152.18150533.2b17ba83_boundary-- ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: "Carol Bevis" Subject: Re: TPDIS: How do the Jaunting Belts work? Date: 28 Nov 2002 19:17:12 -0000 If you look at NS, the rule seems to be that until a TP's had a lot of practice they can only teleport to places they know (Adam to Masters in the Origin Story). This may of course have been an excuse to try to protect Lisa. Regards, Carol ----- Original Message ----- Sent: Wednesday, November 20, 2002 4:37 AM > Hi folks, > Been quiet the last few days because I'm ill, but I've been > wondering about the Jaunting Belt technology and how it actually works. > > We're told in the series that the belts are needed for navigation, and > to boost the TP's range. I take this to mean that they improve a TP's > accuracy over long distances (after all, the further you travel, the > greater the area you could appear in) and the larger the possible margin > for error). > > Now, what I'm wondering is how they actually do that. Whenever a TP used > a belt, they just held the buckle and jaunted. No pushing buttons or > entering co-ordinates manually. My theory is that the belts use some > sort of cybernetic contact to take the destination data directly from > the mind of the TP, do the necessary calculations, then feed that data > back to the TP's mind, guiding him or her to the right location. We know > that the TP's have mind-to-machine technology - the crystals they used > to telepath to TIM in the first story are evidence of that. > > Another possible theory is that the belts are linked to TIM directly, > and that he uses them to guide the TPs to the right locations. Evidence > against this would include times when the TP's have been out of contact > with TIM, or TIM has been disabled, but they have still used the belts. > Can anyone recall such an event taking place? > > My personal feeling is that the belts allow a TP to jaunt to a location > which he or she hasn't seen or been to before, but again I don't have > any tapes of the OS and so don't know if there's any evidence to back > this up. I think that without a belt, a TP could only safely jaunt to > locations that he or she can see, or is familiar with, or is guided to > by a telepathic signal. What do you guys think? > > Oh, one last thing. Did Peter the Time Guardian use a belt or similar > device? > > cheers, > > Chris the Coughing Cavalier > -- > The Reverend Doctor "The Other Chris" > Secret Elf, Jive Talkin' Choirboy, God of Cowboy Spurs > ICQ # 4814586 > Daleks! 3D - http://users.rcn.com/otherchris/ > Time War RPG - http://jump.to/TimeWar > alt.tv.sevendays FAQ - http://welcome.to/7-Days > The TOC Files - http://members.fortunecity.com/toc > > > ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: "Carol Bevis" Subject: Re: TPDIS: Doomsday men Date: 28 Nov 2002 19:22:34 -0000 As far as Play.com are concerned, they haven't got them in stock yet, but I haven't had any messages cancelling my order from them - and my order is still valid. I'll let you know the progress when I get any. Hope it's of some help to you. Regards, Carol ----- Original Message ----- Sent: Thursday, November 28, 2002 9:12 AM > > I got a copy of the boxset a month or so ago because for some bizarre > reason the high street chain MVC had them out on the shelves. > > I have to say I thought that a lot of people would find the commentary on > Doomsday Men quite offensive - I was shocked by it. > > I wouldn't be surprised if that was why it was pulled but I'd like to know > for sure. It would be a shame if that was the reason because even if I > didn't like what the actors were saying in the commentary I cant help > feeling that censoring it would be wrong. > > Elizabeth > ___________________________________________________________________ > Elizabeth Stanway > ers24@cam.ac.uk > http://www.geocities.com/CapeCanaveral/8403 > "If I have seen further than most men, it is by standing on the shoulders > of giants." > ___________________________________________________________________ > > > > ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: Kathryn Andersen Subject: Re: TPDIS: How do the Jaunting Belts work? Date: 29 Nov 2002 08:34:16 +1100 On Thu, Nov 28, 2002 at 07:17:12PM -0000, Carol Bevis wrote: > If you look at NS, the rule seems to be that until a TP's had a lot of > practice they can only teleport to places they know (Adam to Masters in the > Origin Story). This is one reason why I tend to consider the NS to be in a different universe to the OS -- the "rules" of jaunting seem to be different. In the OS they need the jaunting belts/bands for a "boost" or to help with their navigation (I don't think we've managed to figure out which yet) such that, without them, they only appear to be able to go for short hops, possibly only line-of-sight. Wheras in the NS they can go to the other side of the world without a problem, if it's a place they know. Now, you could argue that the presence of the Ship makes NS TPs more powerful, because they have to exersize their teleportation "muscles" because they have to compensate for the "pull" of the beacon in order to get away from the island at all, but that doesn't account for the differences in navigation technique. In the NS, it's *knowing* a place that enables one to get there, not *seeing* it -- knowing a place, or knowing the mind of someone who knows the place -- that is, if we're assuming that the other limitation of OS jaunting is a line-of-sight one. A counter-example for the OS is in The Lost Gods, where Hsui Tai managed to induce a jaunt out of the glider to a place unknown... Kathryn Andersen -=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=- "Help me, Obi Wan Kenobi - you're my only hope..." -- Princess Leia, Star Wars -- _--_|\ | Kathryn Andersen / \ | \_.--.*/ | GenFicCrit mailing list v | ------------| Melbourne -> Victoria -> Australia -> Southern Hemisphere Maranatha! | -> Earth -> Sol -> Milky Way Galaxy -> Universe ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: Drew Thiele Subject: Re: TPDIS: DVD players Date: 28 Nov 2002 16:41:13 -0800 --=======6CE81776======= Content-Type: text/plain; x-avg-checked=avg-ok-2A9C31D9; charset=us-ascii; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit Ok... I've followed up on the DVD player debate for viewing TP DVDs... So mostly you agree that Apex is pretty good, but is it good for overall DVDs? (I've found a DVD player on sale at Walmart, but it's only for tomorrow morning) Apex AW1010 I think that's the version type. I haven't decided whether to get the TP DVD's..or not. Maybe if they closed captioned them, or tried to. :P Btw, has anyone tried to talk to whoever was redistributing them on DVD, about subtitling at all? I'd be a lot...I repeat, a LOT more interested in buying The TP DVDs eventually, if they were. Basically, I wanted to hear what people think offlist, and please email me :) I'll probably keep checking email till about 8am or so tomorrow morning, then most likely buy that dvd player. Heh. Sorry for asking such at last minute. ;) It's lower than 50 bucks, so that's why I wanna try getting it. ;) I hope everyone had/has a great Thanksgiving (those who celebrate it!) -Drew --=======6CE81776======= Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii; x-avg=cert; x-avg-checked=avg-ok-2A9C31D9 Content-Disposition: inline --- Outgoing mail is certified Virus Free. Checked by AVG anti-virus system (http://www.grisoft.com). Version: 6.0.408 / Virus Database: 230 - Release Date: 10/24/02 --=======6CE81776=======-- ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: "John A. Merullo" Subject: Re: TPDIS: Doomsday men Date: 29 Nov 2002 11:54:07 -0600 Gang, I just checked a couple things on the Blackstar site. To wit: "The Doomsday Men" VHS, which was also scheduled to be released on Monday, is listed with the same message as the DVD. Both are currently under "preorder". The second series DVD boxed set is still listed as available. When I clicked "buy" it gave me the message that I live in a country outside of Region 2 and it may not play on my machine. The VHS version does not have the actors' commentary, so that may not have been the problem. On the other hand, the DVD in the boxed set would have it. We'll just see. John Got confirmation today that his first series boxed set has been sent! :-) ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: "Mike Stone" Subject: TPDIS: NS vs. OS (was: How do the Jaunting Belts work?) Date: 29 Nov 2002 19:01:22 +0000 Hi guys, > > If you look at NS, the rule seems to be that until a TP's had a lot > of >practice they can only teleport to places they know ... > >This is one reason why I tend to consider the NS to be in a different >universe to the OS -- the "rules" of jaunting seem to be different. Now that I've seen almost all the new NS, I have to agree that the NS is quite a different animal to the original. With some of the recent hubbub about what's 'canon' and not, I wouldn't even consider the NS canon. But of course, I'm prejudiced towards the OS. ;-) The NS is an enjoyable little series, like the original, but there are some key differences that make it much more different and better than some of the pointless pseudo-science issues that's been discussed here recently. Namely how we deal with our foes, and how we work out our problems. What a great thing to incorporate into a children's program, rather than the usual comic-book style of 'hero defeats bad guy with [fists/powers/guns],' etc. One of the things I liked most about many of the OS stories (shows and book stories) is that the characters always took time to understand the antagonist of the story, and work together to resolve their problems -- even coming to help and befriend their 'enemy' in the end. All the NS episodes had nice endings, which still seemed to incorporate non-violent means to solve these challenges, but not in this same moral style. I suspect 'working together to resolve our problems of the world' is what the NS would have been more like, had Roger Price stuck around a bit more, but in any case, I think both series stand out in their own right, but I think the OS still casts a larger shadow from which the NS couldn't quite lift itself. Back to the other elements of the show for a second; I kept waiting for that ship's computer to 'wake up' and turn more or less into TIM. I figured if it wasn't going to talk, they'd at least understand each other, and I think there were some hints that it could in the earliest episodes. I haven't seen Stones yet, so don't spoil me... :-) I also wondered what happened to the chubby British kid from the earlier episodes. I felt a little sorry for him in the Culex Experiment, since it was obvious the show was ready to get rid him. I wonder if this was his decision, or if the show kindly gave him his walking papers? The NS did a good job in the special effects department, and making shots of different parts of the world believable, for the most part. The funny thing is, earlier when we were talking about 'what we would like to see, if a new TP show was developed,' I said that I felt it would be better if the show stuck largely to the ground, and had no space travel and extra-terrestrial encounters (especially since you, Kathryn, bit my head off about it last time ). Well, since the NS didn't have this, I found myself kind of missing those scenes! So maybe I'll retract my statement, and say that a little bit of earth-bound challenges and a little bit of universal challenges would be fine. By the way, my VCR ate 'Monsoon Man' at the very end, which I hope wasn't its way of telling me it didn't care for that particular episode. ;-) No, actually, I think Culex and Monsoon were about as equally enjoyable, but I personally thought the Rameses Connection was a much weaker story. I think this is opposite to what I've read on other people's web sites, but while I thought Rameses had a lot of potential -- and had Christopher Lee guest-starring -- it really fell flat, and was a bit bizarre at times. It was interesting to see Connie Boothe of 'Fawlty Towers' too, in The Culex Experiment! Anyway, I'll stick with 'Origin Story' for my favorite of the NS so far... Oh well, hope none of this stirs up too much trouble. ;-) Take care, Mike Stone _________________________________________________________________ Protect your PC - get McAfee.com VirusScan Online http://clinic.mcafee.com/clinic/ibuy/campaign.asp?cid=3963 ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: CMento6653@aol.com Subject: Re: TPDIS: NS vs. OS (was: How do the Jaunting Belts work?) Date: 29 Nov 2002 14:15:49 EST --part1_71.299b3b6f.2b1916e5_boundary Content-Type: text/plain; charset="US-ASCII" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit In a message dated 11/29/02 2:02:10 PM Eastern Standard Time, mike_stone65@hotmail.com writes: > All the NS episodes > had nice endings, which still seemed to incorporate non-violent means to > solve these challenges, but not in this same moral style Huh? Didn't they kill the Culex mosquitos and Culex herself? I found the Tp here to be just kids with special abilities, not some new evolving species with non violent tendencies. It could have been any show where people just picked up ESp like powers. IMO. Otherwise I agree with almost all of what you said. I don't think the pilot was the best. I rather liked the unaired pilot best because it was somewhat better acted and less silly. But I'd have to pick the RAMSES story because it had the least silliness and had lots of suspense and more serious villains. Unfortunately it had those other stupid beings (aliens?) which were not explained really and a Tp from the past (which is fine in and of itself but contradicts the Original Series greatly). --part1_71.299b3b6f.2b1916e5_boundary Content-Type: text/html; charset="US-ASCII" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit In a message dated 11/29/02 2:02:10 PM Eastern Standard Time, mike_stone65@hotmail.com writes:


All the NS episodes
had nice endings, which still seemed to incorporate non-violent means to
solve these challenges, but not in this same moral style
Huh? Didn't they kill the Culex mosquitos and Culex herself? I found the Tp here to be just kids with special abilities, not some new evolving species with non violent tendencies. It could have been any show where people just picked up ESp like powers. IMO. Otherwise I agree with almost all of what you said. I don't think the pilot was the best. I rather liked the unaired pilot best because it was somewhat better acted and less silly. But I'd have to pick the RAMSES story because it had the least silliness and had lots of suspense and more serious villains. Unfortunately it had those other stupid beings (aliens?) which were not explained really and a Tp from the past (which is fine in and of itself but contradicts the Original Series greatly). --part1_71.299b3b6f.2b1916e5_boundary-- ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: "Jackie Clark" Subject: Re: TPDIS: NS vs. OS (was: How do the Jaunting Belts work?) Date: 29 Nov 2002 19:36:19 -0000 Mike wrote: I wonder if this was his decision, or if the show kindly gave him his walking papers? If you are referring to Kevin then your question can be answered in person at the 30th anniversary dinner when the actor Adam Pearce will be available to reveal all! ;-) - Jackie ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: Doctor TOC Subject: Re: TPDIS: NS vs. OS (was: How do the Jaunting Belts work?) Date: 29 Nov 2002 14:44:31 -0500 CMento6653@aol.com wrote: > >> All the NS episodes >> had nice endings, which still seemed to incorporate non-violent means to >> solve these challenges, but not in this same moral style > > Huh? Didn't they kill the Culex mosquitos and Culex herself? Yes to the mosquitos, no to Culex - she fell off a catwalk while backing away from Adam. Not what I'd call a nice ending. Then in "Monsoon Man", Colonel Cobb was electrocuted. It wasn't deliberate, but again hardly nice. Then in "The Living Stones" the TP's deliberately kill billions of alien spores, which had proved themselves highly intelligent - perhaps the greatest act of mass murder ever seen on children's TV. Chris -- The Reverend Doctor "The Other Chris" Secret Elf, Jive Talkin' Choirboy, God of Cowboy Spurs ICQ # 4814586 Daleks! 3D - http://users.rcn.com/otherchris/ Time War RPG - http://jump.to/TimeWar alt.tv.sevendays FAQ - http://welcome.to/7-Days The TOC Files - http://members.fortunecity.com/toc ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: Michael Matott Subject: Re: TPDIS: Doomsday men Date: 29 Nov 2002 12:04:44 -0800 (PST) Going to snip and reply to a bunch of these at once: --- "E.R. Stanway" wrote: > > I have to say I thought that a lot of people would > find the commentary on > Doomsday Men quite offensive - I was shocked by it. If it's anything like the commentary on the first season, I'm willing to bet I'll be offended. I lost quite a bit of respect for Nicholas Young and PVC when I heard the commentary on "Medusa Strain". The slams against Stephen Salmon (Kenny) were uncalled for and unprofessional, not to mention racist. Other comments that were made irritated me as well. (Finding out later that they were gradually getting pissed as they recorded the commentaries didn't really make me feel any better, even if it does provide *some* excuse.) I don't know why the subject of homosexuality would come up with "Doomsday Men" unless it related to the fact that it was an all-boys military school. Then Elizabeth said: >It was probably just me but I felt that they were quite offensive to >homosexuals, people of oriental origin and a couple of other groups of >people. They made some jokes that were in quite bad taste and both >Elizabeth Adare and Nicholas Briggs seemed a little shocked to the extent >of disassociating themselves from what was being said (albeit in a joking >manner). To which John replied: > I'll have to hear this for myself (eventually). I > can't speak for all gay people, but as a gay man > myself, I find I'm not always offended by "gay > jokes". I usually have a pretty tough skin about comments like that, when directed at me. I do not appreciate them being added to a DVD release of a CHILDREN's sci-fi show which will be heard by thousands of people. It's foolish to think that the media and media stars have no influence on the masses. Media has a HUGE impact on social mores and attitudes. Intolerance promoted by a 'role model' is a very big problem in my book. Especially when it's aimed at the younger crowd. (And the ironic parallels of this and the 're-education' sequence in Doomsday Men are extremely apparent to me) > Leaving the TP ideals of tolerance out of it, I'm > surprised that anyone in the arts could seriously > have a problem with people different from themselves. Having been involved with theater, I can say I've met quite a number of 'professionals' who were raging homophobes. And others that were racists, classist, etc. Being an artist doesn't always mean being progressive. (although I will agree that a much greater majority of the artistic community are tolerant compared to the general public.) Then John said on another post: > I just checked a couple things on the Blackstar site. > To wit: > "The Doomsday Men" VHS, which was also scheduled to > be released on Monday, is listed with the same > message as the DVD. Both are currently under > "preorder". > The VHS version does not have the actors' commentary, > so that may not have been the problem. On the other > hand, the DVD in the boxed set would have it. If I were to make a guess: If they pulled the DVD because of the commentary, they'd pull the VHS tapes as well until replacement copies are available. They wouldn't have to redo the VHS tapes, but they would hold off selling them until both were available. (They make more profit on DVDs, so they'd want to be sure to have them available as well as the VHS tapes prior to sales) mike __________________________________________________ Do you Yahoo!? Yahoo! Mail Plus - Powerful. Affordable. Sign up now. http://mailplus.yahoo.com ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: "Carol Bevis" Subject: Re: TPDIS: NS vs. OS (was: How do the Jaunting Belts work?) Date: 29 Nov 2002 20:48:27 -0000 As I said before I am a NS fan. I missed OS - I was only 3 or 4 when it first came out. I could see much more in the way of future plots to play with with NS than OS. I much prefer their methods of teleportation - the word teleport seems to have a better ring to it to me than jaunt. I did try to explain my theory of NS teleportation, but it would probably help to go into it a bit more. I don't think they use hyperspace at all. If you draw 2 dots on a piece of paper, what's the quickest way to get from one to the other - a straight line or fold the paper until the two dots are in the same place and you can move simply from one to another. That's how I think the NS teleport works in 3 dimensions (or potentially more?). Megabyte's explanation in the Culex Experiment "Think about where you are, and where he (Adam) is until the two meet." seems to support this idea. Using your mind you (a NS TP) grab where you want to be and where you are, and let go of where you are when the two meet and you're there - no hyperspace in use! Am I confusing you, I'm certainly starting to confuse myself a little with this explanation. :) I hope it makes sense. I've got all the NS stories on video - unofficially except the origin story and the books, but I am missing the first episode of the Rameses Connection. I really would prefer to have them all on DVD, *frustrated sigh* if they would be nice enough to release them. Regards, Carol ----- Original Message ----- Sent: Friday, November 29, 2002 7:44 PM > CMento6653@aol.com wrote: > > > >> All the NS episodes > >> had nice endings, which still seemed to incorporate non-violent means to > >> solve these challenges, but not in this same moral style > > > > Huh? Didn't they kill the Culex mosquitos and Culex herself? > > Yes to the mosquitos, no to Culex - she fell off a catwalk while backing > away from Adam. Not what I'd call a nice ending. Then in "Monsoon Man", > Colonel Cobb was electrocuted. It wasn't deliberate, but again hardly > nice. Then in "The Living Stones" the TP's deliberately kill billions of > alien spores, which had proved themselves highly intelligent - perhaps > the greatest act of mass murder ever seen on children's TV. > > Chris > -- > The Reverend Doctor "The Other Chris" > Secret Elf, Jive Talkin' Choirboy, God of Cowboy Spurs > ICQ # 4814586 > Daleks! 3D - http://users.rcn.com/otherchris/ > Time War RPG - http://jump.to/TimeWar > alt.tv.sevendays FAQ - http://welcome.to/7-Days > The TOC Files - http://members.fortunecity.com/toc > > > ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: Ryan Turner Subject: Re: TPDIS: Doomsday men Date: 29 Nov 2002 13:23:59 -0800 (PST) --- Michael Matott wrote: > If it's anything like the commentary on the first > season, I'm willing to bet I'll be offended. I lost > quite a bit of respect for Nicholas Young and PVC when > I heard the commentary on "Medusa Strain". The slams > against Stephen Salmon (Kenny) were uncalled for and > unprofessional, not to mention racist. Other comments > that were made irritated me as well. (Finding out > later that they were gradually getting pissed as they > recorded the commentaries didn't really make me feel > any better, even if it does provide *some* excuse.) This is interesting to me and a little surprising, though I haven't seen The Doomsday Men, much less played the dvd. I've only heard the commentary on Medusa Strain, and had sort of got the impression that Philip Gilbert might be gay. I don't know if this is a stupid, ridiculous thing to say, but he said a few things (Richard Speight stayed at his house and Speight's dad was unhappy?) that seemed suggestive. Admittedly British men confuse my gaydar *g* ;) j/k > To which John replied: > > > I'll have to hear this for myself (eventually). I > > can't speak for all gay people, but as a gay man > > myself, I find I'm not always offended by "gay > > jokes". Same here. I thought what was said on the Medusa Strain commentary was harmless enough. With the exception of the Kenny stuff, which was a bit shocking. But, I guess we can't expect people to be perfect even if they play characters we like, right? Ryan __________________________________________________ Do you Yahoo!? Yahoo! Mail Plus - Powerful. Affordable. Sign up now. http://mailplus.yahoo.com ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: Pjadedd@aol.com Subject: Re: TPDIS: NS vs. OS (was: How do the Jaunting Belts work?) Date: 29 Nov 2002 16:35:24 EST --part1_a3.336c9cdd.2b19379c_boundary Content-Type: text/plain; charset="US-ASCII" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit In a message dated 11/29/2002 2:39:14 PM Eastern Standard Time, jackie@effdee.demon.co.uk writes: > I wonder if this was his decision, or if the show kindly gave him his > walking papers? > Yes! Finally something I can answer and finally have a first post. I read a story online that incorporated an interview with Kristian Schmid (Adam from the NS). He said Adam Pearce (Kevin) left because the writers couldn't think of any way to expand his character, which is a real shame because he was different from the other TP. He was able to read minds long before he broke out, which I found cool. I'll try to find the article again. It had some interesting info such as Christian Tessier and Kristen Ariza got hypothermia during the Origin Story (the place where they filmed the spaceship was a very cold beach) and that it wasn't fun taping The Living Stones. Kristian said something about it not being fun anymore. PJ --part1_a3.336c9cdd.2b19379c_boundary Content-Type: text/html; charset="US-ASCII" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit In a message dated 11/29/2002 2:39:14 PM Eastern Standard Time, jackie@effdee.demon.co.uk writes:


I wonder if this was his  decision, or if the show kindly gave him his
walking papers?


Yes!  Finally something I can answer and finally have a first post.  I read a story online that incorporated an interview with Kristian Schmid (Adam from the NS).  He said Adam Pearce (Kevin) left because the writers couldn't think of any way to expand his character, which is a real shame because he was different from the other TP.  He was able to read minds long before he broke out, which I found cool.  I'll try to find the article again.  It had some interesting info such as Christian Tessier and Kristen Ariza got hypothermia during the Origin Story (the place where they filmed the spaceship was a very cold beach) and that it wasn't fun taping The Living Stones.  Kristian said something about it not being fun anymore.

PJ --part1_a3.336c9cdd.2b19379c_boundary-- ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: "Shaun Hately" Subject: Re: TPDIS: NS vs. OS (was: How do the Jaunting Belts work?) Date: 30 Nov 2002 08:51:56 +1100 On 29 Nov 2002 at 14:44, Doctor TOC wrote: > Yes to the mosquitos, no to Culex - she fell off a catwalk while backing > away from Adam. Not what I'd call a nice ending. Then in "Monsoon Man", > Colonel Cobb was electrocuted. It wasn't deliberate, but again hardly > nice. Then in "The Living Stones" the TP's deliberately kill billions of > alien spores, which had proved themselves highly intelligent - perhaps > the greatest act of mass murder ever seen on children's TV. I watched the Living Stones again last night - honestly, I can't see what you describe. I don't see any reason to assume that the alien spores were intelligent at all - it seems to be just as valid to view them as a parasite with nothing but survival instincts - all acts of intelligence could have come from the humans they inhabited. The novelisation certainly treats them as intelligent - but the novelisation is not binding. Could they be intelligent as seen in TLS - they *could* be - I just can't see that they must be - and (rather circular logic this), I have to assume they are not, or the Tomorrow People could not have taken the action they did. Unless that's the reason there were no more serials (-8 Of course - there's also the question as to whether the alien spores were killed/destroyed, or simply forced to leave - it looks like they were destroyed - but so could teleportation to somebody who didn't know what had happened. Yours Without Wax, Dreadnought Shaun Hately |webpage: http://www.alphalink.com.au/~drednort/thelab.html (ISTJ) |email: drednort@alphalink.com.au | ICQ: 6898200 "You know the very powerful and the very stupid have one thing in common. They don't alter their views to fit the facts. They alter the facts to fit the views. Which can be uncomfortable if you happen to be one of the facts that need altering." The Doctor - Doctor Who: The Face of Evil | Where am I: Frankston, Victoria, Australia ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: Jeremy Rogers Subject: Re: TPDIS: NS vs. OS (was: How do the Jaunting Belts work?) Date: 29 Nov 2002 23:31:15 GMT Doctor TOC in message <3DE7C39F.9070204@erols.com> wrote: > Then in "The Living Stones" the TP's deliberately kill billions of > alien spores, which had proved themselves highly intelligent - perhaps > the greatest act of mass murder ever seen on children's TV. They were not killed, although that wasn't that unreasonable an assumption to make from the way the ending was finally presented by the production. The novelisation hence is wrong in this respect - obviously Robinson didn't consult the teleplay author. Jez -- ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: Jeremy Rogers Subject: Re: TPDIS: Doomsday men Date: 29 Nov 2002 23:26:29 GMT Michael Matott in message <20021129200444.46339.qmail@web13906.mail.yahoo.com> wrote: > If I were to make a guess: If they pulled the DVD > because of the commentary, they'd pull the VHS tapes > as well until replacement copies are available. They > wouldn't have to redo the VHS tapes, but they would > hold off selling them until both were available. > (They make more profit on DVDs, so they'd want to be > sure to have them available as well as the VHS tapes > prior to sales) The new release dates are advertised by some outlets as 13 January for the single DVD of DM and 3 February for the set. We'll see. Jez -- ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: Jeremy Rogers Subject: Re: TPDIS: NS vs. OS (was: How do the Jaunting Belts work?) Date: 29 Nov 2002 23:53:33 GMT Pjadedd@aol.com in message wrote: > He said Adam Pearce (Kevin) left because the writers couldn't think > of any way to expand his character, which is a real shame because he was > different from the other TP. Pressman and Cathro didn't think he fell in well with the show, which they saw as built around Adam and Megabyte. In particular they couldn't see the rationale of why Kevin and Megabyte would be friends, as they clearly were in the mini-series, mainly because of their age differential. Now I can quite easy come up with explanations for that, but obviously they had no desire to do so. Jez -- ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: Ryan Turner Subject: Re: TPDIS: NS vs. OS (was: How do the Jaunting Belts work?) Date: 29 Nov 2002 19:53:13 -0800 (PST) --- Pjadedd@aol.com wrote: >I'll try to find the article again. I hope you'll forgive the short post, but I'd really love to read this interview. :) Ryan __________________________________________________ Do you Yahoo!? Yahoo! Mail Plus - Powerful. Affordable. Sign up now. http://mailplus.yahoo.com ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: Pjadedd@aol.com Subject: Re: TPDIS: NS vs. OS (was: How do the Jaunting Belts work?) Date: 29 Nov 2002 23:06:14 EST --part1_11f.1a8814f7.2b199336_boundary Content-Type: text/plain; charset="US-ASCII" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit I hope this link works: http://66.66.192.162/tp/articles/interview2.htm PJ --part1_11f.1a8814f7.2b199336_boundary Content-Type: text/html; charset="US-ASCII" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit I hope this link works:

http://66.66.192.162/tp/articles/interview2.htm

PJ --part1_11f.1a8814f7.2b199336_boundary-- ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: Pjadedd@aol.com Subject: Re: TPDIS: NS vs. OS (was: How do the Jaunting Belts work?) Date: 29 Nov 2002 23:07:43 EST --part1_180.12077553.2b19938f_boundary Content-Type: text/plain; charset="US-ASCII" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Actually, this artical is part of what I consider a great TP site. I wouldn't be surprised if many of you have seen it before. PJ --part1_180.12077553.2b19938f_boundary Content-Type: text/html; charset="US-ASCII" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Actually, this artical is part of what I consider a great TP site.  I wouldn't be surprised if many of you have seen it before.

PJ --part1_180.12077553.2b19938f_boundary-- ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: Ryan Turner Subject: Re: TPDIS: NS vs. OS (was: How do the Jaunting Belts work?) Date: 29 Nov 2002 20:10:53 -0800 (PST) --- Jeremy Rogers wrote: > Pressman and Cathro didn't think he fell in well with the > show, which > they saw as built around Adam and Megabyte. In particular > they couldn't > see the rationale of why Kevin and Megabyte would be > friends, as they > clearly were in the mini-series, mainly because of their > age > differential. > > Now I can quite easy come up with explanations for that, > but obviously > they had no desire to do so. This is so true! Now that I think about it, in fact, I realize that the Kevin-Megabyte friendship was a big part of what first attracted me to the show. I was always a really geeky, "smart" kid and everything, into computers and science-fiction. So, it just turned out that quite often my friends were several years older than I was. It wasn't unusual, they were just the only people with whom I shared interests. I think it would have been easy to show that, hey, Megabyte's the only kid who doesn't freak out at this about-to-break-out mind-reading guy ;) We don't even really see Adam and Megabyte just hanging out until The Living Stones. I think I agree with you, they just picked what they thought were the stronger characters and went from there. Ryan __________________________________________________ Do you Yahoo!? Yahoo! Mail Plus - Powerful. Affordable. Sign up now. http://mailplus.yahoo.com ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: CMento6653@aol.com Subject: Re: TPDIS: Doomsday men Date: 29 Nov 2002 23:18:00 EST --part1_a7.2ab8a079.2b1995f8_boundary Content-Type: text/plain; charset="US-ASCII" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit anyone address my concerns: TV zone reports Jan as the release of SLAVES OF JEDIKIAH, and the following months as the release of MEDUSA STRAIN and VANISHING EARTH, which have already come out! The Blackstar sites reports both VHS and DVD for DOOMSDAY MEN have been deleted!!!! --part1_a7.2ab8a079.2b1995f8_boundary Content-Type: text/html; charset="US-ASCII" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit anyone address my concerns: TV zone reports Jan as the release of SLAVES OF JEDIKIAH, and the following months as the release of MEDUSA STRAIN and VANISHING EARTH, which have already come out! The Blackstar sites reports both VHS and DVD for DOOMSDAY MEN have been deleted!!!! --part1_a7.2ab8a079.2b1995f8_boundary-- ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: Doctor TOC Subject: Re: TPDIS: NS vs. OS (was: How do the Jaunting Belts work?) Date: 30 Nov 2002 00:42:00 -0500 Jeremy Rogers wrote: > >>Then in "The Living Stones" the TP's deliberately kill billions of >>alien spores, which had proved themselves highly intelligent - perhaps >>the greatest act of mass murder ever seen on children's TV. > > They were not killed, although that wasn't that unreasonable an > assumption to make from the way the ending was finally presented by the > production. The novelisation hence is wrong in this respect - obviously > Robinson didn't consult the teleplay author. They weren't? What happened to them then? They travel billions of miles then decide to have a bit of a lie down? :-) Seriously, if you've got any evidence to support the idea that they weren't destroyed by the light, I'd be delighted to hear it, as well as an explanation about what actually happened to them, and why they're no longer a threat. As the novelisations had to be approved by the production company before publication, I think it's very unlikely that Robinson got it so wrong. However, I'm always prepared to be corrected. Chris -- The Reverend Doctor "The Other Chris" Secret Elf, Jive Talkin' Choirboy, God of Cowboy Spurs ICQ # 4814586 Daleks! 3D - http://users.rcn.com/otherchris/ Time War RPG - http://jump.to/TimeWar alt.tv.sevendays FAQ - http://welcome.to/7-Days The TOC Files - http://members.fortunecity.com/toc ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: Jeremy Rogers Subject: Re: TPDIS: NS vs. OS (was: How do the Jaunting Belts work?) Date: 30 Nov 2002 08:21:26 GMT Doctor TOC in message <3DE84FA8.5090606@erols.com> wrote: > Seriously, if you've got any evidence to support the idea that they > weren't destroyed by the light, I'd be delighted to hear it, as well as > an explanation about what actually happened to them, and why they're no > longer a threat. As the novelisations had to be approved by the > production company before publication, I think it's very unlikely that > Robinson got it so wrong. However, I'm always prepared to be corrected. Direct personal conversation with the author of the teleplay Lee Pressman, who was very touchy on the suggestion that they were killed. They were dispersed. It would have been a lot clearer if they could have filmed the ending outside as originally intended. Jez -- ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: Kathryn Andersen Subject: Re: TPDIS: NS vs. OS (was: How do the Jaunting Belts work?) Date: 30 Nov 2002 10:16:49 +1100 On Fri, Nov 29, 2002 at 08:48:27PM -0000, Carol Bevis wrote: > with with NS than OS. I much prefer their methods of teleportation - the > word teleport seems to have a better ring to it to me than jaunt. Ah, you haven't read "Tiger Tiger" aka "The Stars My Destination" by Alfred Bester! Do so at once, and you will understand the significance of the word "jaunt" (and have a good read while you're at it). > I did try to explain my theory of NS teleportation, but it would probably > help to go into it a bit more. I don't think they use hyperspace at all. If > you draw 2 dots on a piece of paper, what's the quickest way to get from one > to the other - a straight line or fold the paper until the two dots are in > the same place and you can move simply from one to another. That's how I > think the NS teleport works in 3 dimensions (or potentially more?). > Megabyte's explanation in the Culex Experiment "Think about where you are, > and where he (Adam) is until the two meet." seems to support this idea. > Using your mind you (a NS TP) grab where you want to be and where you are, > and let go of where you are when the two meet and you're there - no > hyperspace in use! Am I confusing you, I'm certainly starting to confuse > myself a little with this explanation. :) I hope it makes sense. Er, but I thought that was what hyperspace *was*? -- _--_|\ | Kathryn Andersen / \ | \_.--.*/ | GenFicCrit mailing list v | ------------| Melbourne -> Victoria -> Australia -> Southern Hemisphere Maranatha! | -> Earth -> Sol -> Milky Way Galaxy -> Universe ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: Kathryn Andersen Subject: Re: TPDIS: NS vs. OS (was: How do the Jaunting Belts work?) Date: 30 Nov 2002 10:14:33 +1100 On Fri, Nov 29, 2002 at 07:01:22PM +0000, Mike Stone wrote: > >This is one reason why I tend to consider the NS to be in a different > >universe to the OS -- the "rules" of jaunting seem to be different. > > Now that I've seen almost all the new NS, I have to agree that the NS is > quite a different animal to the original. With some of the recent hubbub > about what's 'canon' and not, I wouldn't even consider the NS canon. But of > course, I'm prejudiced towards the OS. ;-) Them's fightin' words! (grin) Of course the NS is canon -- its canon for the NS. It isn't canon for the OS -- that is, if one considers them to be different (but similar) universes, then their cannonicities don't intersect. > The NS is an enjoyable little series, like the original, but there are some > key differences that make it much more different and better than some of > the pointless pseudo-science issues that's been discussed here recently. > Namely how we deal with our foes, and how we work out our problems. What a > great thing to incorporate into a children's program, rather than the usual > comic-book style of 'hero defeats bad guy with [fists/powers/guns],' etc. > > One of the things I liked most about many of the OS stories (shows and book > stories) is that the characters always took time to understand the > antagonist of the story, and work together to resolve their problems -- > even coming to help and befriend their 'enemy' in the end. All the NS > episodes had nice endings, which still seemed to incorporate non-violent > means to solve these challenges, but not in this same moral style. Other people have pointed out the problems with Culex and The Living Stones, but as a contrast, I consider two instances in the Pilot to be far more telling illustrations of the Prime Barrier than almost anything in the OS; the first is Adam's shark-bite, and the second is the scene where Megabyte is pointing the gun at Col. Masters -- you can see his struggle, and the way that Damon takes the gun out of his hands, Megabyte is all dazed, as if it's just too much for him. I liked that. > I suspect 'working together to resolve our problems of the world' is what > the NS would have been more like, had Roger Price stuck around a bit more, > but in any case, I think both series stand out in their own right, but I > think the OS still casts a larger shadow from which the NS couldn't quite > lift itself. (shrug) I think both series had their strengths and their weaknesses; I wouldn't cast the OS as "always better" -- there are some aspects of the NS (not just the SFX either) that I feel are better than the OS, while the OS is stronger in other respects. And I'm someone who started off with the OS, so I do think I'm not being biased. > Back to the other elements of the show for a second; I kept waiting for > that ship's computer to 'wake up' and turn more or less into TIM. I figured > if it wasn't going to talk, they'd at least understand each other, and I > think there were some hints that it could in the earliest episodes. I > haven't seen Stones yet, so don't spoil me... :-) It's tricky, the Ship. I loved the sound it makes, that makes it all the more mysterious. On the other hand, if they had managed to get Philip Gilbert from the start, that would have been good too; but I'm content with having it as it is, more mysterious and etherial. > The NS did a good job in the special effects department, and making shots > of different parts of the world believable, for the most part. The funny > thing is, earlier when we were talking about 'what we would like to see, if > a new TP show was developed,' I said that I felt it would be better if the > show stuck largely to the ground, and had no space travel and > extra-terrestrial encounters (especially since you, Kathryn, bit my head > off about it last time ). What, did I? I don't think I was *that* cranky! > Well, since the NS didn't have this, I > found myself kind of missing those scenes! So maybe I'll retract my > statement, and say that a little bit of earth-bound challenges and a little > bit of universal challenges would be fine. I think it can depend on the skill with which these things are done, too. Aliens can be a liability if they are done badly. > By the way, my VCR ate 'Monsoon Man' at the very end, which I hope wasn't > its way of telling me it didn't care for that particular episode. ;-) No, > actually, I think Culex and Monsoon were about as equally enjoyable, but I > personally thought the Rameses Connection was a much weaker story. I think > this is opposite to what I've read on other people's web sites, but while I > thought Rameses had a lot of potential -- and had Christopher Lee > guest-starring -- it really fell flat, and was a bit bizarre at times. It > was interesting to see Connie Boothe of 'Fawlty Towers' too, in The Culex > Experiment! Anyway, I'll stick with 'Origin Story' for my favorite of the > NS so far... I think the reaction to people to The Rameses Connection depends a great deal on what they think of Red Rainwear and all that crew. Many people hated them and think they completely spoiled the story by adding something far too bizzare and nonsensical. On the other hand, I'm going to be non-conformist by declaring that I liked them, and I thought they dragged something that was terribly unoriginal and derivative (however marvelously acted by Christopher Lee) into Something Different. No, I don't think they were aliens at all. More like friendly spirits or ghosts; on the side of Good, but with little power except to advise and distract. I thought they were cool. Kathryn Andersen -=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=- "I AM telling the truth. I KEEP telling the truth - Why is it no-one believes me?" -- The Doctor (Doctor Who: The Caves of Androzani) -- _--_|\ | Kathryn Andersen / \ | \_.--.*/ | GenFicCrit mailing list v | ------------| Melbourne -> Victoria -> Australia -> Southern Hemisphere Maranatha! | -> Earth -> Sol -> Milky Way Galaxy -> Universe ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: Beth E. Subject: Re: TPDIS: Doomsday men Date: 30 Nov 2002 12:26:53 -0600 On Friday, November 29, 2002, at 10:18 PM, CMento6653@aol.com wrote: > anyone address my concerns: TV zone reports Jan as the release of > SLAVES OF JEDIKIAH, and the following months as the release of MEDUSA > STRAIN and VANISHING EARTH, which have already come out! *sighs* I think no one's answered this because no one knows why this is the case. We all have DVDs in hand that indicate this isn't the case. The time frame listed almost sounds like last year's schedule. So either: 1) Thames is going with a new distributor (other than Revelation) and they're reissuing these in a bizarre move/coincidence (hopefully on higher quality media) or 2) You somehow picked up an issue from a year ago (check the copyright date)-- is this a subscription copy or did you find it on a newsstand? Or 3) TV Zone has been living in a cave for the last year. People are doing their best to report stuff as they find out. We don't work for Thames/whoever. Jackie's source from last year have proven highly untrustworthy. But in a lot of cases we have as little clue as you do. > The Blackstar sites reports both VHS and DVD for DOOMSDAY MEN have been > deleted!!!! See the rest of the thread. Other vendors are changing release dates-- and Blackstar hasn't emailed me to say my order for the DVD has been cancelled either. Tigger ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: ade Subject: Re: TPDIS: Doomsday men Date: 30 Nov 2002 13:27:48 -0500 I'm still waiting on a reply from the bigwigs. Maybe next week "Beth E." wrote: > > On Friday, November 29, 2002, at 10:18 PM, CMento6653@aol.com wrote: > > > anyone address my concerns: TV zone reports Jan as the release of > > SLAVES OF JEDIKIAH, and the following months as the release of MEDUSA > > STRAIN and VANISHING EARTH, which have already come out! > > *sighs* I think no one's answered this because no one knows why this is > the case. We all have DVDs in hand that indicate this isn't the case. > The time frame listed almost sounds like last year's schedule. So > either: 1) Thames is going with a new distributor (other than > Revelation) and they're reissuing these in a bizarre move/coincidence ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: CMento6653@aol.com Subject: Re: TPDIS: Doomsday men Date: 30 Nov 2002 13:34:03 EST --part1_15.368b5a3.2b1a5e9b_boundary Content-Type: text/plain; charset="US-ASCII" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit They state it is from REV and everything around it looks correct: from Jan 2003. --part1_15.368b5a3.2b1a5e9b_boundary Content-Type: text/html; charset="US-ASCII" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit They state it is from REV and everything around it looks correct: from Jan 2003.
--part1_15.368b5a3.2b1a5e9b_boundary-- ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: ade Subject: Re: TPDIS: Doomsday men Date: 30 Nov 2002 13:35:39 -0500 Maybe they are doing another release? Let's hope they fix all the screw-ups from the first time around, like the wrong pictures, mis-labled credits, etc etc etc etc CMento6653@aol.com wrote: > > They state it is from REV and everything around it looks correct: from > Jan 2003. ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: "E.R. Stanway" Subject: Re: TPDIS: Doomsday men Date: 30 Nov 2002 18:43:22 +0000 (GMT) Surely it would be silly to rerelease everything now that most of the people who would be interested already have copies of the DVD's? ___________________________________________________________________ Elizabeth Stanway ers24@cam.ac.uk http://www.geocities.com/CapeCanaveral/8403 "If I have seen further than most men, it is by standing on the shoulders of giants." ___________________________________________________________________ On Sat, 30 Nov 2002, ade wrote: > Maybe they are doing another release? Let's hope they fix all the > screw-ups from the first time around, like the wrong pictures, > mis-labled credits, etc etc etc etc > > CMento6653@aol.com wrote: > > > > They state it is from REV and everything around it looks correct: from > > Jan 2003. > > ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: ade Subject: Re: TPDIS: Doomsday men Date: 30 Nov 2002 13:45:21 -0500 Well if it is a LEGAL issue, then they'd have no choice. "E.R. Stanway" wrote: > > Surely it would be silly to rerelease everything now that most of the > people who would be interested already have copies of the DVD's? > > ___________________________________________________________________ > Elizabeth Stanway > ers24@cam.ac.uk > http://www.geocities.com/CapeCanaveral/8403 > "If I have seen further than most men, it is by standing on the shoulders > of giants." > ___________________________________________________________________ > > On Sat, 30 Nov 2002, ade wrote: > > > Maybe they are doing another release? Let's hope they fix all the > > screw-ups from the first time around, like the wrong pictures, > > mis-labled credits, etc etc etc etc > > > > CMento6653@aol.com wrote: > > > > > > They state it is from REV and everything around it looks correct: from > > > Jan 2003. > > > > ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: "Jackie Clark" Subject: Re: TPDIS: Doomsday men Date: 30 Nov 2002 20:09:59 -0000 Beth would you mind clarifying what you meant by this comment please? >Jackie's source from last year have proven > highly untrustworthy. But in a lot of cases we have as little clue as > you do. I'm a little confused... Jackie ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: "Jackie Clark" Subject: Re: TPDIS: Hyperspace (was NS vs. OS ) Date: 30 Nov 2002 20:15:05 -0000 > Er, but I thought that was what hyperspace *was*? Me too! I like the idea of bending space so that two places meet but still believe that there is a gap between them. After all, if two places touched perfectly then they would, in fact, be the same place... Does that make sense? So when the TP's teleport/jaunt they bend space but leave a miniscule distance between the locations which they then step through... I'm not being very clear about this... can anyone clarify my thoughts.... please? - Jackie ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: Beth E. Subject: Re: TPDIS: Doomsday men Date: 30 Nov 2002 15:26:42 -0600 On Saturday, November 30, 2002, at 02:09 PM, Jackie Clark wrote: > Beth would you mind clarifying what you meant by this comment please? > > >> Jackie's source from last year have proven >> highly untrustworthy. But in a lot of cases we have as little clue as >> you do. > > I'm a little confused... Whoever you were talking to at... I forget the name was-- the vendor who claimed they were going to get all these exclusive promotions (IE the box for the first three DVDs with Vanishing Earth and get the box sets for the other seasons prior to their competition). I don't know if that was what was planned and they never got back to you or what was going on-- but this was one of our better sources for info at the time and since none of these promotions happened, well, we can't exactly believe them even if they would respond to your emails. Sorry, that's what happens when I check email before I'm fully awake. Tigger ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: "David Yates" Subject: Re: TPDIS: Doomsday men Date: 30 Nov 2002 21:21:18 -0000 > See the rest of the thread. Other vendors are changing release dates-- > and Blackstar hasn't emailed me to say my order for the DVD has been > cancelled either. > Tigger My Blackstar order is still extant, as far as I can tell. I hope that helps? All the best, David. ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: "Kristy Fahrenwald" Subject: Re: TPDIS: Is it just me?...Doomsday men Date: 30 Nov 2002 21:41:50 -0600 Is just me or does the very *possiblity* that the dvd's could be on hold because of the 'commentaries' cause you to want to go after the 'commentators' with stun guns?... or baseball bats for us sap friends. I only have the first two at this point and by Medusa Strain it was laughable to even call it a 'commentary'... it was just a snippy in crowd party with the TP on in the background. (Of course to be fair, it has been awhile since the one listen I gave it.) Hearing that it gets worse and *why that is the case* burns me up. I would rather not hear from those who once played the TP if they can't *pretend* they have some idea of what the TP were about and what they meant to us while they offer their insights. Sell the dvd's without the commentaries if this is going to be the quality! Or at least if they are gonna drink they could play the drinking game... then we would know they would be paying attention to the screen occationally! ;) (End Rant... resume your day) Kristy The Sap Friend _________________________________________________________________ The new MSN 8: smart spam protection and 2 months FREE* http://join.msn.com/?page=features/junkmail ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: "Jackie Clark" Subject: TPDIS: chat Date: 01 Dec 2002 04:32:35 -0000 it's Saturday night at 4.31 am GMT and we are in chat if anyone wants to join us on mirc sorcery.net in #tomorrowpeople... Jackie ---- "May your senses be enlightened and your dreams be fulfilled." Traditional Manyarnern Greeting http://www.effdee.demon.co.uk/HomeFrameset-1.htm http://www.The-Tomorrow-People.co.uk ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: Kathryn Andersen Subject: Re: TPDIS: NS vs. OS (was: How do the Jaunting Belts work?) Date: 01 Dec 2002 00:23:24 +1100 On Sat, Nov 30, 2002 at 12:42:00AM -0500, Doctor TOC wrote: > Jeremy Rogers wrote: > > > >>Then in "The Living Stones" the TP's deliberately kill billions of > >>alien spores, which had proved themselves highly intelligent - perhaps > >>the greatest act of mass murder ever seen on children's TV. > > > >They were not killed, although that wasn't that unreasonable an > >assumption to make from the way the ending was finally presented by the > >production. The novelisation hence is wrong in this respect - obviously > >Robinson didn't consult the teleplay author. > > They weren't? What happened to them then? They travel billions of miles > then decide to have a bit of a lie down? :-) (chortle) > Seriously, if you've got any evidence to support the idea that they > weren't destroyed by the light, I'd be delighted to hear it, as well as > an explanation about what actually happened to them, and why they're no > longer a threat. As the novelisations had to be approved by the > production company before publication, I think it's very unlikely that > Robinson got it so wrong. However, I'm always prepared to be corrected. Er, you think the Production Company is going to have time to check every minute detail? Especially considering the timing of these things, novelizations are often written before the thing in question is actually finished, so things aren't always the same in a novelization as the thing which its novelizing. Not to mention that the writer tends to put in gobs of interpretation which one doesn't have on the screen. I *never* take novelizations as canon. -- _--_|\ | Kathryn Andersen / \ | \_.--.*/ | GenFicCrit mailing list v | ------------| Melbourne -> Victoria -> Australia -> Southern Hemisphere Maranatha! | -> Earth -> Sol -> Milky Way Galaxy -> Universe ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: "Jackie Clark" Subject: Re: TPDIS: chat Date: 01 Dec 2002 05:56:55 -0000 It's now almost 6am GMT and we're still in chat if anyone is online... ----- Original Message ----- Sent: Sunday, December 01, 2002 4:32 AM > it's Saturday night at 4.31 am GMT and we are in chat if anyone wants to > join us on mirc sorcery.net in #tomorrowpeople... > > Jackie > ---- > "May your senses be enlightened and your dreams be fulfilled." > Traditional Manyarnern Greeting > http://www.effdee.demon.co.uk/HomeFrameset-1.htm > > http://www.The-Tomorrow-People.co.uk > > ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: Doctor TOC Subject: Re: TPDIS: NS vs. OS (was: How do the Jaunting Belts work?) Date: 01 Dec 2002 01:59:19 -0500 Kathryn Andersen wrote: > > Er, you think the Production Company is going to have time to check > every minute detail? Especially considering the timing of these > things, novelizations are often written before the thing in question > is actually finished, so things aren't always the same in a > novelization as the thing which its novelizing. Not to mention that > the writer tends to put in gobs of interpretation which one doesn't > have on the screen. Very true, though I think making it clear that the bad guys weren't killed would be one of the things they would take time to check, considering it should have been one of the big red flags in the writer's bible. But your point is well taken. > I *never* take novelizations as canon. I normally don't either, but I often use them as back-up sources when the on-screen information is unclear. How we were expected to dedcuce that the Spores were "dispersed" rather than killed from what was shown on-screen is beyond me. BTW, you wouldn't happen to be the same Kathryn Andersen who was involved in "Convergence" many moons ago, would you? Chris -- The Reverend Doctor "The Other Chris" Secret Elf, Jive Talkin' Choirboy, God of Cowboy Spurs ICQ # 4814586 Daleks! 3D - http://users.rcn.com/otherchris/ Time War RPG - http://jump.to/TimeWar alt.tv.sevendays FAQ - http://welcome.to/7-Days The TOC Files - http://members.fortunecity.com/toc