From: owner-utah-firearms-digest@lists.xmission.com (utah-firearms-digest) To: utah-firearms-digest@lists.xmission.com Subject: utah-firearms-digest V2 #24 Reply-To: utah-firearms-digest Sender: owner-utah-firearms-digest@lists.xmission.com Errors-To: owner-utah-firearms-digest@lists.xmission.com Precedence: bulk utah-firearms-digest Wednesday, February 18 1998 Volume 02 : Number 024 ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Date: Tue, 17 Feb 1998 11:02:19 -0700 From: chardy@ES.COM (Charles Hardy) Subject: Gov. Mikey's General Counsel's thoughts In case you didn't make it through the footnootes, this one is quite telling. From my original post: 47. Utah Code Ann. =A7 53-5-704(1) (Supp. 1997). The Governor's General Counsel has suggested the phrase "[a concealed weapon] permit is valid throughout the state, without restriction" means that the permit may be taken anywhere, without restraint; however, the possession of the concealed weapon may be further restricted. This interpretation seems to be an artificially strict reading of the statute and contradicts legislative action in Section 53-5-710 which gives the exclusive list of locations where "[a] person with a permit to carry a concealed firearm may not carry a concealed firearm . . . ." This is unbelieveable. Anyone who thinks Leavitt is a friend of gun owners or our rights had better re-read that. Anybody who would hold or request such an opinion will twist or ignore the law to their liking. His counsel actually thinks the permit itself can be taken anywhere (I'm so glad I won't go to jail for possessing a concealed PIECE OF PAPER!!) but the gun authorized by the permit can be further restricted. It's no wonder these people have such a hard time understanding "shall not be infringed" and don't know the differerence between "use" and simple possession. Article I, Section 6 of Utah Constitution: The individual right of the people to keep and bear arms for security and defense of self, family, others, property, or the state, as well as for other lawful purposes shall not be infringed; but nothing herein shall prevent the Legislature from defining the lawful use of arms. It seems to me the legislature can define lawful use, but is not granted the power to define, regulate, or infringe ownership or possession (keep and bear). Even our current CCW permit process is an infringment of our rights to own and possess guns. Only a politician, or a judge, could ever confuse simple possession with actual use of any item. - -- Charles C. Hardy | If my employer has an opinion on | these things I'm fairly certain 801.588.7200 (work) | I'm not the one he'd have express it. "The right of the people to keep and bear arms shall not infringed; a well armed, and well regulated militia being the best security of a free country: but no person religiously scrupulous of bearing arms shall be compelled to render military service in person." - [This was Madison's original proposal for the "Second Amendment" -- James Madison, I Annuals of Congress 434 (June 8, 1789). - - ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 17 Feb 1998 12:33:54 -0700 From: Will Thompson Subject: Re: Gov. Mikey's General Counsel's thoughts Charles Hardy wrote: > It's no wonder these people have such a hard time > understanding "shall not be infringed" and don't know the differerence > between "use" and simple possession. > > Article I, Section 6 of Utah Constitution: > > The individual right of the people to keep and bear arms for security and > defense of self, family, others, property, or the state, as well as for > other lawful purposes shall not be infringed; but nothing herein shall > prevent the Legislature from defining the lawful use of arms. > > It seems to me the legislature can define lawful use, but is not > granted the power to define, regulate, or infringe ownership or > possession (keep and bear). Even our current CCW permit process is an > infringment of our rights to own and possess guns. Only a politician, > or a judge, could ever confuse simple possession with actual use of > any item. > Well.... The Oxford English Dictonary does include "use" in the definition for "bear" and "keep" if I remember right. And "carry" is also included in "bear" and "use". So, in that sense A1-6 is pretty meaningless. (i.e. the right to use shall not be infringed...but legislature shall regulate lawful use..) Conceptually you are correct. Regarding Millenium Mike, you are so very correct. Remember that we had to pull that embarrassment stunt to get him to sign the dang CCW bill. He's a pod people, he talks like a "conservative" but walks, quacks and flies like a whole different bird. (not that conservative means anything other than more "fascist" in one direction than a liberal...) - - ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 17 Feb 1998 17:10:38 -0700 From: "S. Thompson" Subject: LEGISLATIVE ALERT!! HB 343 HB 343, Nuisance Code Amendments - Shooting Ranges will be heard by the House Judiciary Committee on Thursday, Feb. 19. The committee meeting is from 8-9:30 AM, in Room 223 at the State Capitol. HB 343 is a shooting range protection bill. It prohibits local governments from passing ordinances to shut down or harass already existing shooting ranges, provides that individuals who use shooting ranges assume all reasonable risks, and limits the use of nuisance actions for "noise pollution". The text of the bill can be found at http://www.le.state.ut.us/~1998/bills/hbillint/HB0343.htm. The League of Cities and Towns plans to oppose this bill. The Board of Trustees of USSC recommend the following: ACTIONS: 1) If possible, please attend the Committee hearing. We need to pack the room! If you would like to testify, please get there early and notify Committee Chair Lamont Tyler, or the secretary. The bill is currently listed as first on the agenda. 2) Please contact members of the House Judiciary Committee and urge them to SUPPORT HB 343. A. Lamont Tyler, Chair Greg J. Curtis, Vice Chair Katherine Bryson Bill Hickman Keele Johnson Swen Nielsen Tammy J. Rowan Glenn L. Way Patrice Arent John B. Arrington Loretta Baca To leave a message for Representatives, call 538-1029 or (800) 662-3367. Other contact information is available at http://www.le.state.ut.us/house/html/members.htm Thank you for your support! Sarah Thompson for the Board of Trustees As always, comments may be directed to any of the Board members listed below. Please feel free to contact them, but please do not abuse their open-door policy. All of us are VERY busy right now. Doug Henrichsen, 771-3196(h), cathounds@aol.com Elwood Powell, 426-8274 or 583-2882 (w), 364-0412 (h), 73214.3115@compuserve.com Shirley Spain, 963-0784, agr@aros.net Bob Templeton, 544-9125 (h), 546-2275 (w) Sarah Thompson, 566-1067, righter@therighter.com (I prefer e-mail to phone calls when possible). Joe Venus, 571-2223 - - ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 17 Feb 1998 18:20:34 -0700 From: chardy@ES.COM (Charles Hardy) Subject: Communication with Legislators I received a very nice email today from one of our legislators. I've removed all identifying references and pass along the remaining transcript to illustrate that there is benefit to taking the time to let elected officials know where you stand and to enlighten them or politely correct them wrt laws or bills. Don't assume a legislator knows the law any better than you do. Especially if you are talking about your "pet" area and you've read up on it recently. They are as busy or more than the rest of us and don't go around reading current statute just for fun. All, or nearlly all, legislators have their home numbers listed on the State legislative pages and are good about taking a few minutes to talk on the phone. I've had several nice conversations with legislators and highly reccomend you take the time to call them when a bill is of particular concern. This exchange started with me contacting this particular legislator concerning a particular bill concerning CCW. His response first, followed by my response. His final message is first is last. - ----BEGIN FORWARDED MESSGE---- On Thu, 05 Feb 1998, posted: Dear Mr. Hardy: Thanks for the obvious reasoning and long thought on the subject of gun rights. I appreciate your concern. I too, have thought a great deal about this. I am convinced, after [much thought and experience], that there are times when "reasonable" restrictions are appropriate. The problem is, I haven't been able to yet determine the best way to define those. Maybe I never will, so in the mean time it's probably best to leave things alone. Briefly, though, let me give you an example of one of the problem areas I've identified. I have an 18 year old [child] who is eligible to obtain a concealed weapons permit. [S/He] is also still a senior in high school. If [s/he] were to obtain a permit, should [s/he] be allowed to take [a] handgun to school? My personal opinion to that is NO. As you eloquently stated, there's not much happening to give us cause to act immediately on this. Perhaps there is value in being pro active, but certainly not rash. Thanks again for your comments. That's what make this process work. Sincerely, [name deleted] >> Charles Hardy 02/06 4:49 PM posted>>> Dear [name deleted] Thank you for your thoughtful reply and raising the issues of primary and secondary schools. [some deleted] Your concern about high school seniors carrying guns into schools under the privleges of state issued CCW permit might be valid, except that Utah law does not allow a person to obtain a CCW permit until they are 21 years of age, not at 18 as you feared. I quote from Utah Code 53-5-704 as obtained at : 53-5-704. Division duties -- Permit to carry concealed firearm -- Requirements for issuance -- Violation -- Denial, suspension, or revocation -- Appeal procedure. (1) The division or its designated agent shall issue a permit to carry a concealed firearm for lawful self defense to an applicant who is 21 years of age or older within 60 days after receiving an ^^^^^^^^^^^^ application and upon proof that the person applying is of good character. The permit is valid throughout the state, without restriction, for two years. It seems pretty clear that our current CCW permits do not allow anyone under age 21 to carry a concealed weapon. Thus, any problem of students carrying guns to school must be caused--and should therefore logically be addressed--by something other than our CCW permit law. I trust you have no opposition to adults (21 yrs+) exercising their privleges under CCW permits while they are on public University or College property? Surely, a 22 year old woman poses no greater risk to her fellow citizens and is no less a target of crime simply because she is walking across University rather than city property? I know you are very busy, and I don't want to infringe on your time. But please let me briefly give you an example of one concern I have if CCW permits are rendered invalid on school grounds. In adittion to restricting law abiding adults when there is no evidence at all to date they pose any danger, any prohibition of guns in or around schools must be very carefully worded in light of the Federal Gun Free Schools Act of 1995. I've attached relevant portions of this law below. In summary, the Act makes it a crime for any person who is not specifically authorized (via a State issued permit that requires a background check) to posses a gun to be in possession of a gun on or within 1000 feet of any school grounds. 1000 feet is almost two city blocks! If Utah's CCW permits are not valid on school grounds, a permit holder who is otherwise legally in possession of his firearm, might possibly be ruled (by an anti gun federal judge in Denver) in violation of this Federal law simply by walking, jogging, or even driving within two city blocks of any school--public, private, or parochial (and some rumors suggest the BATF is also looking at interpreting this to include home schools)--anywhere in the State. I encourage you to obtain a map of Salt Lake County that shows all schools. Then shade in those schools and two city blocks in each direction of each school to see how much area could potentially make federal criminals of some of our most law abiding citizens. Thank you for your service in the legislature and your consideration of these views. Sincerely Charles Hardy [U.S. Code TITLE 18 - CRIMES AND CRIMINAL PROCEDURE deleted in repost] <<>> Dear Charles: You're absolutely right. Thanks for your efforts and helpful understanding of the issue. I appreciate it. I also know this is a delayed response, and for that I apologize. It's been a little crazy up here lately. Sincerely, [name deleted] - -- Charles C. Hardy | If my employer has an opinion on | these things I'm fairly certain 801.588.7200 (work) | I'm not the one he'd have express it. "There are no victims, only volunteers. You volunteer by appearing uncertain and afraid. You volunteer by being (as grass-eaters invariably are) unprepared to deal with the dangers of life." - Cooper's Corner - - ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 17 Feb 1998 21:08:13 -0700 From: chardy@ES.COM (Charles Hardy) Subject: SB57 Update SB57, Sen. President Beattie's bill that would effectively destroy the CCW permit system was assigned to the Senate Judiciary Committee today. I had expected it to go to the Transportation and Public Safety Committee as other related bills have. I suspect the Judiciary Committee is less favorable to guns, and being Senate President, Beattie was able to direct it there. He is one of the committee members. The sponsor of SB23, negligent storage of a firearm, Robert Steiner is another member. I assume those 2 will vote for it right out of the box. I have no idea where the other 4 members stand. Contact info below: Robert C. Steiner (D) 80 North Wolcott Salt Lake City, Utah 84103-4477 H-596-1213 O-328-883 rsteiner@le.state.ut.us David L. Buhler (R) 1436 South Yuma Street Salt Lake City, Utah 84108 H-466-7140 O-355-5009 FAX-355-4008 dbuhler@le.state.ut.us Craig L. Taylor (R) (chair) 312 Oak Lane Kaysville, Utah 84037 O-544-5909 ctaylor@le.state.ut.us Lane Beattie (R) (sponsor and senate pres) 1313 North 1100 West West Bountiful, Utah 84087 H-292-7406 O-298-7000 email not listed but lbeattie@le.state.ut.us may reach him. Lyle W. Hillyard (R) (Assistant Majority Whip) 175 East First North Logan, Utah 84321 H-753-0043 O-752-2610 lhillyar@le.state.ut.us Mike Dmitrich (D) HC 65, Box 30 Altamont, Utah 84001-9703 H-454-3494 mdmitric@le.state.ut.us - -- Charles C. Hardy | If my employer has an opinion on | these things I'm fairly certain 801.588.7200 (work) | I'm not the one he'd have express it. "25 states allow anyone to buy a gun, strap it on, and walk down the street with no permit of any kind: some say it's crazy. However, 4 out of 5 US murders are committed in the other half of the country: so who is crazy?" - Andrew Ford - - ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 18 Feb 1998 09:18:01 -0700 From: DAVID SAGERS Subject: FW: Oppose HB 328 -Forwarded Received: from jserver.recovery-usa.com by wvc (SMI-8.6/SMI-SVR4) id JAA18623; Tue, 17 Feb 1998 09:03:18 -0700 Received: by jserver.recovery-usa.com from localhost (router,SLMail V2.6); Tue, 17 Feb 1998 09:07:09 -0700 Received: by jserver.recovery-usa.com from David_Harmer.NTdomain (206.62.70.93::mail daemon; unverified,SLMail V2.6); Tue, 17 Feb 1998 09:07:08 -0700 Received: by David_Harmer.NTdomain with Microsoft Mail id <01BD3B83.627F33E0@David_Harmer.NTdomain>; Tue, 17 Feb 1998 09:06:51 -0700 Message-ID: <01BD3B83.627F33E0@David_Harmer.NTdomain> From: "David Harmer" To: "'Bischoff, Jim'" <110344.1572@compuserve.com>, "'Gaunt, Arnold'" , "'Harmer, Jonny'" , "'Harmer, Matt'" , "'Harmer, Miriam'" , "'Harmer, Wendy'" To: "'Hawkes, Bob & Sharlene'" , "'Jarrard, Jeff'" , "'Latham, Rob'" , "'Latham, Rob (work)'" , "'Poulter, Steve'" , "'Powers, Jason'" To: "'Sagers, David'" , "'Salisbury, David'" , "'Simmons, Rob'" , "'Wells, Bob & Helen'" Subject: FW: Oppose HB 328 Date: Tue, 17 Feb 1998 09:06:41 -0700 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/mixed; boundary="---- =_NextPart_000_01BD3B83.62885BA0" - ------ =_NextPart_000_01BD3B83.62885BA0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable - -----Original Message----- From: S. Thompson [SMTP:righter@therighter.com] Sent: Monday, February 16, 1998 3:07 PM To: utah-firearms@xmission.com Subject: Oppose HB 328 The following letter was sent to the Salt Lake Tribune, = letters@sltrib.com If you agree, please send your own letter. =20 Please also contact your Representative, and particularly Speaker of the House Mel Brown. He can best be reached by e-mail at = mbrown@le.state.ut.us Thanks! Sarah Oppose HB 328 Rep. Susan Koehn and the members of the House Government Operations = Committee apparently believe that an oath of office is merely a = formality. They unanimously passed Koehn's HB 328, which removes = criminal sanctions for a legislator who refuses or neglects to take and = file an oath of office. If this bill passes, a legislator may willfully = refuse to take his oath of office, and the only recourse available to = citizens will be to file a civil suit at their own expense. This is = exactly the same as declaring that murder is illegal, but their are no = criminal penalties for committing murder, so the victim's family must = file a suit in civil court to seek restitution. In this case it is the Constitution being murdered. The United States = Constitution and the Utah Constitution are the two documents by which = all laws must be judged. They are the foundations of our way of life. = Any legislator who is not willing to pledge to uphold these sacred = documents, and do so with pride, does not deserve to serve the people of = Utah. Any legislator who votes for this bill is pubicly stating that he or = she has no respect for our Constitution. Citizens would do well to = remember these votes come November. 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legislators. I've > removed all identifying references and pass along the remaining > transcript to illustrate that there is benefit to taking the time to > let elected officials know where you stand and to enlighten them or > politely correct them wrt laws or bills. > hear hear.... As I understand it, the so-called "alternative" to SB57 was dealt a major blow yesterday when the NRA sleaze wasn't able to meet with one of the reps. Herewith a response from another rep...and this guy's probably even gonna get a small donation from me next time 'round. (in spite of some of his other problems) > Dear Mr. Thompson: > > I wish to share with you my feelings regarding SB 57. I am happy to say that I > do not support any legislation that will limit the rights of the gun owners. I > believe that the concealed weapons laws that are in place are fine. > > Sincerely, - - ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 18 Feb 1998 09:45:25 -0700 From: DAVID SAGERS Subject: HB 328 It appears from the State legislature home page that the house passed HB 328, these people must be eating prunes, they'll pass anything! Contact your Senator. - ----Original Message----- From: S. Thompson [SMTP:righter@therighter.com] Sent: Monday, February 16, 1998 3:07 PM To: utah-firearms@xmission.com Subject: Oppose HB 328 The following letter was sent to the Salt Lake Tribune, = letters@sltrib.com If you agree, please send your own letter. =20 Please also contact your Representative, and particularly Speaker of the House Mel Brown. He can best be reached by e-mail at = mbrown@le.state.ut.us Thanks! Sarah Oppose HB 328 Rep. Susan Koehn and the members of the House Government Operations = Committee apparently believe that an oath of office is merely a = formality. They unanimously passed Koehn's HB 328, which removes = criminal sanctions for a legislator who refuses or neglects to take and = file an oath of office. If this bill passes, a legislator may willfully = refuse to take his oath of office, and the only recourse available to = citizens will be to file a civil suit at their own expense. This is = exactly the same as declaring that murder is illegal, but their are no = criminal penalties for committing murder, so the victim's family must = file a suit in civil court to seek restitution. In this case it is the Constitution being murdered. The United States = Constitution and the Utah Constitution are the two documents by which = all laws must be judged. They are the foundations of our way of life. = Any legislator who is not willing to pledge to uphold these sacred = documents, and do so with pride, does not deserve to serve the people of = Utah. Any legislator who votes for this bill is publicly stating that he or = she has no respect for our Constitution. Citizens would do well to = remember these votes come November. Sarah Thompson, M.D. - - ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 18 Feb 1998 09:57:28 -0700 From: DAVID SAGERS Subject: Waco Update 02-18-98: The Konformist -Forwarded Received: (from root@localhost) by mrin53.mail.aol.com (8.8.5/8.7.3/AOL-2.0.0) id KAA20511; Wed, 18 Feb 1998 10:31:10 -0500 (EST) Date: Wed, 18 Feb 1998 10:31:10 -0500 (EST) From: Robalini@aol.com Message-ID: <980218103110_1111084592@mrin53> Subject: Waco Update 02-18-98: The Konformist MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-type: multipart/mixed; boundary="PART.BOUNDARY.0.25356.mrin53.887815870" - --PART.BOUNDARY.0.25356.mrin53.887815870 Content-ID: <0_25356_887815870@mrin53.222> Content-type: text/plain Waco Update 02-18-98: The Konformist - --PART.BOUNDARY.0.25356.mrin53.887815870 Content-ID: <0_25356_887815870@mrin53.223> Content-type: text/plain; name="waco0218.txt" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable A Konformist Special Waco Update 02-18-98 Date: Monday, January 26, 1998 8:10:48 AM From: carolmoore@kreative.net Subj: SOME FACTS ON CLINTON'S WACO COVER-UP FACT SHEET: assembled by Carol Moore, author, The Davidian Massacre CarolMoore@kreative. Net 202-635-3739 =0D EVIDENCE OF PRESIDENT CLINTON'S OBSTRUCTION OF JUSTICE IN THE 1993 WACO MASSACRE =0D This sheet outlines just some of the evidence that President Clinton, through his various appointees, intentionally obstructed justice in covering up negligent and intentional homicide by federal agents of 82 Branch Davidians--24 men, 35 women and 23 children. Clinton's brutal comment April 20, 1993 is typical of a co-conspirator, not a President: "I was, frankly, =D4surprised,' would be a mild word to say, that anyone would suggest that the Attorney General should resign because some religious fanatics murdered themselves." =0D ** One of the chief planners of the February 28, 1993 BATF raid on the Branch Davidians was Bill Clinton's personal friend William Buford, Special Agent in Charge of Little Rock BATF. According to a March, 1993, Wall Street Journal article, the day after the February 28 raid, then-Deputy Treasury Secretary Roger Altman visited the injured Buford in a Texas hospital and reported back to Clinton. Congress never asked Altman or Buford about what they discussed. Did President Bill Clinton have foreknowledge of, or involvement in, the Waco raid which he has not revealed? =0D ** During the siege against the Davidians news reporters claimed that the White House was "micro-managing" the FBI's actions at Waco. However, during 1995 Congressional hearings former Associate Attorney General Webster Hubbell denied he discussed the subject more than once with President Clinton. Attorney General Janet Reno initially asserted Hubbell had spoken to Clinton on April 19th but withdrew her statement when Clinton and Hubbell denied it. =0D * An FBI report on White House counsel Vince Foster's suicide revealed that his wife, Lisa, told the FBI that Foster felt responsible for the deaths of the Davidians. Lisa Foster must be quizzed about what Vince Foster told her about his and the White House's involvement in the Waco massacre. During the House Waco hearings the White House released Foster's "Waco file" which contained only one memorandum. In August, 1997, journalist Ambrose Evans-Prichard revealed Foster's former executive assistant, Deborah Gorham, told the Senate Banking Committee in June, 1997, that Foster kept a file on the Waco incident locked in an office cabinet. Evidently Congress did not ask her if it contained more than the one memorandum previously released to Congress. Linda Tripp was also a Foster aide. What could she tell us about the White House's involvement in Waco?? =0D * Confidential memoranda and handwritten notes presented during the 1995 House Waco hearings revealed that the Treasury Department, under pressure from the Justice Department and Webster Hubbell, halted its post-February 28 shooting review investigation because agents' stories "did not add up." The Justice Department protested that the interviews were generating "exculpatory" material that could help the Davidian defendants at trial. Webster Hubbell even threatened to go to Bill Clinton if the Treasury Department did not cooperate in the suppression of such exculpatory evidence. During the hearing, representatives quizzed defense attorneys on this suppression of evidence. However, Congress never asked Webster Hubbell about his role in squelching these interviews. And even though Hubbell promised to produce his personal "Waco files" to Congress, he did not do so. =0D * On April 19, 1993, Reno and Hubbell sat in the FBI Operations Center in Washington, D.C. for four hours watching the tank attack on Mount Carmel. Reno mentioned during the 1993 house hearings that she talked to Clinton at 11:00 a.m. on April 19th, just before she left the Operations Center. Incredibly, Congress never asked her then, or during 1995 hearings, about the content of this conversation! Did Clinton tell her to press on with the attack? Did he tell her to leave Webster Hubbell in charge? What instructions did he give her?? =0D There is ample similar evidence of cover-up by the Clinton White House and executive branch in both the 1993 and 1995 Congressional "Waco" hearings, in the conduct of the Treasury and Justice Department investigations into the massacre, and in the prosecution of Davidian defendants. Clinton's deliberate suppression of evidence and obstruction of justice in the massacre of 82 civilians at Waco is a far more heinous crime than that of asking an intern to lie under oath about their sexual affair. A separate independent counsel must be appointed to find evidence of negligent and intentional homicide of the Davidians and of systematic cover-up of those crimes that goes all the way up to President Clinton. =0D DON'T FORGET COMMITTEE FOR WACO JUSTICE DEMO IN D.C. 1/27/98 =0D Demo at the Bureau of Prisons and the U.S. Congress, calling for the impeachment of Waco co-conspirator President Bill Clinton and for the end to the ongoing physical abuse by guards of Branch Davidian Livingstone Fagan at U.S.P. Leavenworth. =0D Demonstrators will gather at 12:00 p.m. at Bureau of Prisons Headquarters, 320 1st Street, NW, at C Street. We will be available for comments to the press at 12:30 p.m. and then will march to Independence and New Jersey Avenues to demonstrate and leaflet Congressional members. January 27th is both the first day of the 1998 session and the day President Clinton is scheduled to give his State of the Union address. Date: Thursday, January 29, 1998 4:52:28 PM From: carolmoore@kreative.net Subj: Waco Update--January 29, 1998 WACO UPDATE=D0JANUARY 29, 1998 Carol Moore Member, Committee for Waco Justice Author, The Davidian Massacre =0D GOOD NEWS FROM LIVINGSTONE FAGAN Yesterday I received a letter from Davidian prisoner Livingstone Fagan reporting things have improved greatly for him at the Special Housing Unit at USP Leavenworth. (During November and December 1997 Leavenworth guards repeatedly beat him and locked him half naked in freezing cells. They even hosed him down and turned an industrial fan on him after he complained to outsiders about abuse of inmates in that unit. For more information go to: http://www.kreative.net/carolmoore/cwj-update-98.html ) Fagan writes: "My thoughts have been of you, and of the people who have taken the time and effort to write me. . .You might be interested to know that 1/6/98 was the date I had an interview with an official from the office of internal affairs. A development arising from the efforts of those good people mentioned above. "I think the way is now clear for my resuming writing. I have a lot of letters to catch up on. Unfortunately, some of these were confiscated along with other personal effects." On Fagan's refusal to release his Bureau of Prison (B.O.P.) records to me, and at least one Senator who wrote on behalf of a constituent, Fagan writes: "Past experience has taught me that these people (B.O.P. administrators) are not interested in the truth of what's going on. Giving your consent for them to act on your behalf amounts to a public relations exercise in the interest of the B.O.P. I was not content with having this dealt with administratively, rather =D4on the ground.' Where the reality is. Perhaps the most substantial development has been that of the interview with an official from the office of internal affairs. The effects have been noticeable, at least with respect to the harassment." Fagan also notes: "You also expressed concern about people thinking these things are made up. I can understand the desire to think that. It relieves one of his/her responsibility to do anything about it. I'm reminded of a comic strip you once sent me of two prisoners chained to a wall in their boxers. The caption was, "It's no use complaining. They'll only think you're trying to get something for free." It was for me (having experienced the reality) an indictment against the ignorance and resulting insensibility of public perception. Or at least the perception created by the Media. There's a large class of Americans who seem to take comfort in denying (by making light of) the realities of what is going on. This is a tragedy, considering it is in their power to fix it..." =0D So thanks again to all of those of you who took time to write Warden Booker, BOP Director Kathleen Hawk, Representative McCollum, etc. Sometimes letter writing works! I don't know if letter writing campaign to the Supreme Court would help the Davidian appeals. But we should note than in mid-January court proceedings regarding an Oregon SWAT team's no-knock search, Justice Sandra Day O'Connor said: "We all have in mind what happened at Waco. We think we have some concerns here." Hopefully, the whole court will have more than mere "concerns" when they hear the Branch Davidians' appeals sometime in the next year or so. Will they rule that trial Judge Walter J. Smith should have allowed the jury to consider "self-defense" in the aiding and abetting manslaughter charge? Will they rule that Davidians should not have been found guilty of carrying a gun during the murder of federal agents=D0when= they were found *innocent* of those murders? Will they rule that the jury, not the judge, should have been responsible for finding them innocent or guilty of carrying illegal weapons? Will they rule that there is insufficient evidence against any of the Davidians? Will they demand the Davidians be re-tried by a fair and impartial judge=D0or even that they should be freed immediately? Seven Davidians still imprisoned have received a total sentence of 235 years. Will the Supreme Court reverse this grave injustice? Can we convince them to do so? For more information about the Branch Davidian prisoners go to: http://www.kreative.net/carolmoore/waco-prisoners.html =0D REPORT ON JANUARY 27TH COMMITTEE DEMONSTRATIONS On Tuesday, January 27th eight members of the Committee for Waco Justice demonstrated as planned at the Bureau of Prisons Headquarters and the U.S. Congress. January 27th was both the first day of the 1998 session and the day President Clinton gave his State of the Union address. Before those demonstrations five of us went to the nearby U.S. Court House where dozens of reporters and cameramen were reporting on the Grand Jury looking into charges that President Clinton lied under oath and encouraged Monica Lewinsky to do so. We figured we'd remind the press that Clinton's obstruction of justice in the Waco massacre is a lot more important than the current "crisis." Like many, I believe it will be at least some measure of justice if it is proved Clinton urged a woman to lie to protect him from losing a civil suit for sexual harassment and he is forced to resign. Also, his fall may allow new evidence of his crimes against the Branch Davidians finally to become public. For evidence of Clinton's obstruction of Justice at Waco go to: http://www.kreative.net/carolmoore/waco-clinton-impeach.html We carried our signs, "Clinton Obstructed Justice at Waco", "Impeach the Liar", "Free the Branch Davidians", and "Impeach Clinton for Waco Massacre" and chanted the last three slogans. A number of television crews filmed and interviewed us and the footage may show up somewhere someday. One sarcastic reporter started asking one member about the "conspiracy to kill Diana in the tunnel." We set him straight about the seriousness of the government's unpunished massacre of civilians at Waco=D0and reminded him it may have driven at least on individual to kill another 168 people in Oklahoma City; he immediately skulked away. Eight of us then protested at Bureau of Prisons while dozens of police officers, guards and employees=D0and a poorly concealed video camera=D0watched us. The whole block heard our chants=D0also printed on signs=D0"Warden Booker Control Your Guards =D0 Stop Beating Fagan", "BOP Stop Abusing Fagan," "Free the Branch Davidians." We took lots of pictures, so we'll have them to send to present and future wardens of any prison that starts mistreating Davidian prisoners. Just to remind them we are ready to make a fuss to protect the prisoners. To see some of the photographs, go to: http://www.kreative.net/carolmoore/impeach-demo-photos.html Finally, we spent another hour or so outside Congress, distributing our Impeach Clinton-Free the Davidians press release=D0to predictably mixed reactions. One Republican operative boasted to some Democratic big shots he ran into that he had "hired" us. Lyndon LaRouche followers were also distributing their literature=D0claiming tha= t Linda Tripp was a George Bush operative trying to discredit Clinton the Great (with the help of the Queen of England, of course). When a Democrat later accused us of being LaRouchies, we set him straight: "LaRouche is Clinton's biggest supporter!" Since we got there after the Congressmen had already gone into Congress for the opening ceremonies (reminder, get there at 11:30 a.m. next time) we only ran into to a few actual members. However, we did see Texas Congressman Ron Paul, a very vocal critic of the government's actions at Waco, across the street and chanted a few "Waco, Never Again" just for him. Some people may scoff that these demos accomplish little. But, like the butterfly that starts a hurricane, small efforts can have large effects. A few guilt trips levied at reporters, Bureau of Prison employees and congressional aides and members may yet reap rewards. Maybe one of them will even notice that we presented concrete evidence Clinton obstructed justice at Waco and do something about it!! =0D TELL CLINTON TO FREE THE BRANCH DAVIDIANS Thinking that President Clinton might be resigning any day now, I sent him the following e-mail: "You know what the truth is and you know you will be forced to resign. If you do believe in God, think about your moral soul and think about the 82 misguided but sincere Davidians who died at Waco. (Note: I confess, I pandered to him. I guess just writing to that man corrupts one!) Then think of the seven remaining Davidian prisoners and Pardon Them! Let this act of mercy be the defining moment of your Presidency!!! Renos Avraam, #60590-080 Brad Branch, #60536-080 Graeme Craddock #60593-080 Jaime Castillo, #60594-080 Livingstone Fagan, #60550-080 Paul Fatta, #61154-079 Kevin Whitecliff, #60537-080 (And while you are at it, Free Leonard Peltier, as well!!) (End) It can't hurt for people to e-mail Clinton at and/or call him on the White House comment line 202-456-1111 asking him to pardon the Davidians. As he goes through the crisis of having to recognize his own failings, if not his crimes, perhaps he will look for some symbolic redemptive acts before the inevitable resignation or impeachment. (Assuming he doesn't just go nuts and push the red button.) Let's suggest that freeing the Davidians be one of those acts! (For more information on Clinton's obstruction of justice in the Waco Massacre go to: http://www.kreative.net/carolmoore/waco-clinton-impeach.html ) =0D COMMITTEE SEEKS FUNDS FOR FEBRUARY 28 AND APRIL 19TH EFFORTS We thank all those who have helped us in the past, even as we ask for a bit more help in 1998. The Committee for Waco Justice has a $100 debt it would like to pay off. Plus we would like to place at least a $200 advertisement in the Washington Times on each of these two upcoming Fifth Year anniversaries of the massacres. (And that will buy just a three inch by two inch advertisement.) We may have some unexpected expenses for our April 19th memorial on the Ellipse, south of the (Gore?) White House. Plus we would appreciate contributions to help pay for postage and xeroxing for materials we frequently send to the Davidian survivors and prisoners, as well as to pay for collect phone calls from some of the prisoners. The Committee for Waco Justice's budget is less than $1,500 a year, so we do not have a bank account. Make checks to: Carol Moore, P.O. Box 65518, Washington, D.C. 20035 202-635-3737. (For a list of available materials and buttons and an order form go to: http://www.kreative.net/carolmoore/cwj-order-form.html In the alternative, you might want to help the Branch Davidian survivors get ready for their April 19, 1998 memorial at Mount Carmel outside Waco. Also, if things go well at their next court hearing, February 23rd, they may finally get official recognition of their ownership of the Mount Carmel property, which will insure the Sheriff evicts the aggressive squatters who have been there since shortly after the fire and have threatened them with weapons. Almost a dozen Davidian survivors are interested in re-occupying Mount Carmel and beginning to turn it into a fitting memorial. Send checks to: Mount Carmel Survivors Memorial Fund, Inc., Box 120, Axtell, TX 76624. Also write for their price list of books, videos and audiotapes about David Koresh and the destruction of their community. =0D CarolMoore@kreative.net =0D http://www.kreative.net/carolmoore/davidian-massacre.html Date: Wednesday, January 28, 1998 10:51:57 AM From: noimposters@hotmail.com Subj: Branch Davidians / Website information http://www.geocities.com/Heartland/Valley/3877/ noimposters@hotmail.com Uninvited imposters at site of Waco tragedy website. The following is the text taken from the website at: http://www.geocities.com/Heartland/Valley/3877/ It is the answer to the website: 'A brief stop at Mt. Carmel' by Daniel Tobias. Daniel Tobias revisited the site and added another section to his website titled 'Return to Mt. Carmel'. People can access Mr. Tobias site from this site to compare the information. The following is the real story...... Return to Mount Carmel (Going Back to the Scene of the Crime just to find another crime taking place!) It has been a couple of years since I last visited the site of the = Branch Davidian tragedy of 1993, and I'd heard that some of the = buildings I photographed had been burned down since, so I decided to = check the place out again..... Davidians don't like the name "compound" to describe their location = (preferring to refer to it as their church and their home), but the = squatters who have taken over the property seem to be exploiting the = situation, and have 'Branch Davidian Compound' written on the sign at = the front of the place, and also on the fraudulent admission pass they = require! (Notice the hand written 1 in the line marked: party of. Can this person write? Good thing he has a stamp for the date.) Just how pathetic does it get? (picture) These fraudulent passes are given after bullying a small 'recommended' = donation from visitors, in an attempt to exploit the victims of the 1993 = tragedy. It has been rumored that the money they fraudulently collect is = used to buy beer as well as the enamel paint used to deface the property = into looking more like a makeshift tourist attraction. A friend of mine = visiting the site recently was approached by a surly man wanting her to = pay the fee. He was angered when she refused, and she said he looked = like he had not washed for weeks. Perhaps they should take some of that = money they are stealing posing as Davidians, and buy some soap!!! The buildings I saw last time have indeed been burned down. I had to = wonder if the squatters who have invaded the property were the culprits. = Now a trailer serves as the imposters "office". A man was there, who = said he's the husband of the woman who used to live there (Amo Roden = Drake), but he and his buddy (Charles Pace, another uninvited squatter/imposter) ran her off the property and will not allow = her back on! She is on a permanent vacation from the property. One of = the buildings burnt down was her 'home', convenient huh? In place of the old "museum" (that was burnt down by the = squatter/imposters more than likely) was a new crude structure with = various exhibits. One shows the cover of a book by Carol Moore and = refers to it as "dishonest". Very likely this is because these squatters = are NOT Branch Davidians and they dislike any attempt to vindicate/free the Davidian prisoners, who if released would kick these = imposters right off the property, as they should be! This time, I went further onto the property, to look at what was left of = the buildings, and to witness what further vandalism had occurred on the = part of the uninvited squatters. In between the front area and the building ruins, were many monuments = and markers, including memorials to each person who died in the church = in 1993, and a monument to "The Living Waters -- Branch of Righteousness = - -- This monument (pictured below) is dedicated to Christ the Word, the = Branch of Righteousness" and was erected by the squatter/imposter Charles Pace, who is convinced he is a prophet. = ACTUALLY he wants to MAKE a PROFIT! One must wonder what David Koresh = would think of these monuments and markers. As for myself, I hold the = view that David would be disgusted, however he would expect this to = happen! The burned-out remains of a bus were out in the field, with a bathtub = nearby. The imposter/squatters have dug up every available remaining = ruin in order to use it in their exploitation of the Branch Davidians. Parts from another bus were buried in the ground; this was the bus that = was placed by Koresh as part of a storm shelter so his people could take = refuge in it in case of a tornado. Many places on the property had signs identifying things that visitors = were being called attention to. These signs were also erected by the = squatter/imposters, a result of their disgusting lack of respect and = reverence, and completely geared towards soliciting money from = unsuspecting visitors. This is the remains of a swimming pool on the property. (picture) As if the vandalism and destruction of the FBI was not enough...we found = this vandalism on the corner of the swimming pool, which pointed the way = to various spots that showed up in the media coverage of the Branch = Davidian siege, somehow this is relevant to the squatter/imposters. Further in and blocked off so the public cannot approach it, is a = structure where Branch Davidian men would work on and refurbish cars. = The imposter/squatters seem to be using this structure as a makeshift = church. A further exploitation of the 'real' Branch Davidians. The Branch Davidian property is being vandalized and exploited by = squatters who do not mind if visitors think that they are the Branch = Davidians. In fact, they deceitfully promote that false idea in the = minds of visitors. They solicit 'donations' from visitors who think they = are Branch Davidians, all the while they are slandering and defaming David Koresh and the real Davidians. This page was written as an answer to the original page created by = Daniel Tobias. This was not meant as a disrespect to Mr. Tobias. All = photos presented here were taken by Daniel Tobias who without realizing, = thought that the Mt.Carmel property is being maintained by Branch = Davidians. However, the property is being squatted by imposters seeking = to PROFIT from the 1993 tragedy. This website was not written by Daniel = Tobias. Let all visitor's to the site BEWARE. Another interesting note, one of the squatters is facing charges for = threatening someone with a gun. = ______________________________________________________ Get Your Private, Free Email at http://www.hotmail.com - --PART.BOUNDARY.0.25356.mrin53.887815870-- - - ------------------------------ End of utah-firearms-digest V2 #24 **********************************