From: owner-utah-firearms-digest@lists.xmission.com (utah-firearms-digest) To: utah-firearms-digest@lists.xmission.com Subject: utah-firearms-digest V2 #116 Reply-To: utah-firearms-digest Sender: owner-utah-firearms-digest@lists.xmission.com Errors-To: owner-utah-firearms-digest@lists.xmission.com Precedence: bulk utah-firearms-digest Thursday, December 17 1998 Volume 02 : Number 116 ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Date: Sun, 13 Dec 1998 14:34:17 -0700 From: "David Sagers" Subject: Fwd: FW: Lawsuit Received: from wvc ([204.246.130.34]) by icarus.ci.west-valley.ut.us; Sun, 13 Dec 1998 08:57:53 -0700 Received: from fs1.mainstream.net by wvc (SMI-8.6/SMI-SVR4) id IAA18438; Sun, 13 Dec 1998 08:44:34 -0700 Received: from (server@localhost [127.0.0.1]) by fs1.mainstream.net (8.9.1a/8.9.1) with SMTP id KAA07979; Sun, 13 Dec 1998 10:56:09 -0500 (EST) Date: Sun, 13 Dec 1998 10:56:09 -0500 (EST) Message-Id: <199812131530.IAA24065@mail2.rockymtn.net> Errors-To: listproc@mainstream.net Reply-To: 70274.1222@compuserve.com Originator: noban@mainstream.net Sender: noban@mainstream.net Precedence: first-class From: Paul Gallant/NY <70274.1222@compuserve.com> (by way of Douglas Davis ) To: Multiple recipients of list Subject: FW: Lawsuit X-Listprocessor-Version: 6.0 -- ListProcessor by Anastasios Kotsikonas X-Comment: Anti-Gun-Ban list Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Content-Disposition: inline News Release Second Amendment Foundation 12500 NE Tenth Place * Bellevue, WA 98005 (425) 454-7012 * FAX (425) 451-3959 For Immediate Release =20 =20 Contact: =20 Alan Gottlieb (425) 454-7012 Joseph P. Tartaro (716) 885-6408 Prof. Daniel D. Polsby (312) 503-8955 =20 MAYORS FACE LAWSUIT BY GUN OWNER GROUP BELLEVUE, WA (December 9, 1998)-The Second Amendment Foundation (SAF), a gun owner advocacy and educational organization, notified the US Conference of Mayors in a faxed letter dated Dec. 8 that it plans to sponsor a "damage action" against the cities of Chicago and New Orleans for conspiracy to violate civil rights, abuse of process and undue burden on interstate commerce. The Foundation's letter to J. Thomas Cochran, executive director of the US Conference of Mayors, said that a steering committee of distinguished law professors, who will serve without compensation, has been assembled as a response to the "frivolous suits" which New Orleans and Chicago filed recently against firearms manufacturers, their trade associations and federally licensed firearms dealers. SAF warned the mayors' conference on the eve of its scheduled Dec. 10 meeting in Chicago that the suit which it expected to file in Louisiana early next year will also name any other cities which follow the New Orleans and Chicago lead. Noting that the mayors had invited lawyers involved in the suits against the firearms industry to address the meeting, Alan M. Gottlieb, founder of the Second Amendment Foundation, encouraged the conference to also invite a rebuttal presentation by a member of the 12-member steering committee, Daniel D. Polsby, Kirkland & Ellis professor of law at Northwestern University. "From coast to coast, noted law professors seem to agree with the many newspaper editorials which have suggested that the lawsuits filed by the cities of New Orleans and Chicago against firearms manufacturers and marketers are ill-conceived, ill-advised and totally without merit," said Gottlieb. "Whatever problems the cities may have with the criminal and negligent misuse of firearms, their suits against the gun manufacturers make as much sense as suing the National Weather Bureau for the cost of storm damages," Gottlieb added. Even newspapers and magazines which advocate strict controls over firearms and their purchasers have with unusual consistency questioned the advisability of the kind of suits that have been filed by the cities against the firearms industry. They see these as an attempt to pervert the concept of product liability as an extension of the arguments used in the state attorneys general suits against the tobacco industry. "The nature and status of guns and tobacco are not analogous," said Joseph P. Tartaro, president of SAF. "Firearms have a significant beneficial use in our society beyond recreation, since independent research shows they are used over 2 million times a year to prevent or terminate predatory criminal assaults." "The New Orleans and Chicago lawsuits are not only frivolous they are dangerous because they are an extension of legal and political buccaneering that will rape Americans of the means to self-defense while looting a legal industry." "The Foundation's primary interest is to safeguard the traditional legal rights of law-abiding and peaceable American gun owners," Gottlieb said. "We are not industry advocates. Gun makers and sellers just happen to be the visible targets of the frivolous actions brought by New Orleans and Chicago. If these were standard product liability suits, we wouldn't have more than a passing interest in what the cities are attempting to do." The law professors on the Foundation's steering committee for the lawsuit against the cities besides Prof. Polsby are: Steven Calabresi, professor of law, Northwestern University, Chicago; Robert A. Carter, professor of law and Judge Alexander P. Waugh Sr. scholar, Rutgers University-Newark; Robert J. Cottrol, professor of constitutional law and legal history, George Washington University, Washington, DC; Michael I. Krauss, professor of law, George Mason University, Arlington, VA; Gary S. Lawson, professor of law, Northwestern University, Chicago; Calvin R. Massey, Hastings College of Law, San Francisco; John McGinnis, Cardozo Law School, New York City; Glenn Harlan Reynolds, professor of law, University of Tennessee, Knoxville, TN; Charles E. Rice, professor of law; Notre Dame University, South Bend, IN; Larry Soderquist, professor of law and director of the Corporate and Securities Law Institute, Vanderbilt University, Nashville, TN;, and George Strickler, professor, Tulane University Law School, New Orleans, LA. The Second Amendment Foundation is a tax-exempt education, legal action and publishing group founded in 1974 and now has over 600,000 individual citizen supporters nationwide. It previously has funded successful firearms-related suits against the cities of Los Angeles, New Haven, CT, and San Francisco on behalf of American gun owners. - - ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 14 Dec 1998 15:03:07 -0700 From: "S. Thompson" Subject: She's BAAAAAACK! Hi all! Just a quick note to let you know that I'm back on Utah-firearms for at least the duration of the legislative session. It looks like it will be an ugly one, so I figure the more we can communicate and cooperate, the better. I will probably be starting a legislative alert mail list (assuming I can figure out how to get it set up!), although it will offer my opinions alone, and will not be affiliated with USSC. (Where we agree, we will, of course, cooperate!) Next up - the U. of U.'s anti-gun curriculum for medical students and physicians....... My best wishes to all of you for a very Happy Holiday Season! Sarah Sarah Thompson, M.D. http://www.therighter.com Stop the Gun Ban! NO-lympics 2002! Check out http://www.therighter.com/column/Olympics.html - - ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 14 Dec 1998 15:07:27 -0700 From: "S. Thompson" Subject: Re: Univ. of Utah hoplophobes Thanks to Dr. Tim Wheeler for alerting me to this problem, and for writing such a cogent response. Please feel free to forward his article to anyone you think would find it of interest and/or benefit. Also, if anyone has any suggestions on how to present an opposing point of view to the University and/or its students, please let me or Tim know. Thanks! Sarah The following was written by Dr. Wheeler: Hoplophobia at the University of Utah: Gun Control in the Pathology Curriculum by Timothy Wheeler, MD Director of Doctors for Responsible Gun Ownership, a Project of The Claremont Institute Prejudice toward guns and their owners is endemic in the academic world. Famed firearm instructor Col. Jeff Cooper coined the term "hoplophobia" (from the Greek root hoplon, or weapon) to describe an irrational aversion to firearms. The University of Utah Department of Pathology's Edward C. Klatt, MD has created a CD-ROM for health care science students, available on the Web at http://www-medlib.med.utah.edu/WebPath/TUTORIAL/GUNS/GUNINTRO.html. This on-line tutorial is an example of how presumably objective teachers are allowed to color facts with their own jaundiced view of firearms ownership. The tutorial's author commits three fundamental offenses against science: 1) He presents factually false and misleading statements as true. 2) He omits large chunks of established criminology research which demonstrate societal benefits of firearms. 3) He does all this under the imprimatur of the University of Utah, impeaching that fine institution's scientific reputation. In the Statistics, Gun Control Issues, and Safety section of the tutorial one gets a flavor of the author's bias against guns. In addition to complaining about the National Rifle Association and about government being slow to "severely restrict the...use of firearms by ordinary citizens", the author presents these fictions: FICTION: "... technically, the application of this [the Second] amendment applied to the maintenance of a militia, and not private gun ownership..." FACT: Since 1980 over 60 law review articles have been published on the issue of "states' right versus individual right" interpretations of the Second Amendment to the U.S. constitution. Fewer than 10 of these articles conclude that the Second Amendment affirms a right of state governments to "keep and bear arms." (1) The scholars who wrote the other 50 plus articles determine, sometimes despite their own admitted abhorrence of guns, that the Second Amendment clearly affirms an individual right of gun ownership. FICTION: "Both accidental and homicidal shooting deaths have increased over the past several decades..." FACT: On the contrary, accidental shooting deaths have decreased over the last six decades, and continue to decrease. (2) Homicidal shootings did increase over the period from 1987 to 1991 (3), but have been decreasing since then. (4) This temporary increase has been attributed to the crack cocaine epidemic of that time, which featured an increase in gun homicides among drug dealers and their customers. These statistics tell us nothing about the great majority of American gun owners, who are not affiliated with street gangs or the illicit drug trade. The firearms tutorial's introduction implies an even-handed treatment of gun issues that it fails to deliver. Conspicuously missing from the text and bibliography are any references to the voluminous criminology literature on guns. Even though scholars like the University of Chicago's John Lott (5) and Florida State University criminology professor Gary Kleck have published acclaimed, widely publicized books on firearms use and abuse, we see no mention of them in the University of Utah's pathology tutorial on guns. Was the tutorial's author really unaware of the work of these scholars? That is hard to believe. It's also hard to avoid the conclusion that he omitted these works for one simple reason: they show convincingly that firearms in the hands of responsible citizens not only are safe, but save lives, protect property, and reduce injuries by defending against violent criminals. Medical students and others unfamiliar with the scientific literature on guns may find all this hard to believe. We encourage you to maintain that healthy skepticism, but to look at the references listed in the endnotes. You have the skills to analyze the science and to decide for yourselves whether firearms are a public health threat or simply a tool like any other, to be used for good or evil according to the user. In early 1999 the Claremont Institute will publish Firearms: a Handbook for Health Professionals. This booklet contains over 20 pages of facts and figures about firearms. It summarizes firearm research of not only Kleck, but of his main academic critics Cook and Ludwig. John Lott's elaborate study of concealed carry laws is digested for quick reference, with graphs and text showing the highlights of his now-famous work. Students interested in the part of the gun debate not included in the University of Utah's pathology curriculum can check out Doctors for Responsible Gun Ownership at the Claremont Institute's web site (see directions below, after the endnotes). Watch the site for announcement of the Handbook's release, with ordering instructions. In closing, we make a plea to the University of Utah Department of Pathology to re-examine its commitment to scientific integrity. Science demands rigorous honesty, and that means examining all the data, not just the data that support our fears and prejudices. Your reputation depends on that honesty. Your students deserve no less. Endnotes 1) Kates D and Kleck G, The Great American Gun Debate: Essays on Firearms and Violence, Pacific Research Institute for Public Policy, San Francisco 1997, 38-43. 2) Accident Facts-1997 Edition, National Safety Council, Itasca, IL 1997: 44-45. 3) Kleck G, Targeting Guns: Firearms and Their Control, Aldine de Gruyter, New York 1997, 256-259, 262-263. 4) Uniform Crime Reports for the United States 1996, U.S. Department of Justice, Federal Bureau of Investigation, Washington, DC, 1997: 18 (Table 2.10). Note: Uniform Crime Report methodology reports this statistic as total firearm murders, which do not include negligent or justifiable homicides. 5) Lott J, More Guns, Less Crime: Understanding Crime and Gun Control Laws, University of Chicago Press, Chicago and London 1998. Presented by: Doctors for Responsible Gun Ownership a Project of The Claremont Institute P.O. Box 1931 Upland, CA 91785-1931 e-mail drgotww@aol.com Claremont Institute World Wide Web site: http://www.claremont.org For more information about DRGO go to About The Claremont Institute, then scroll down to Doctors for Responsible Gun Ownership. To see all DRGO editorial articles, go to Publications, then to The Second Amendment. voice message / fax (909) 949-9971 - - ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 15 Dec 1998 16:58:32 -0700 From: "David Sagers" Subject: Fwd: For lack of a gun... Received: from wvc ([204.246.130.34]) by icarus.ci.west-valley.ut.us; Mon, 14 Dec 1998 23:38:21 -0700 Received: from fs1.mainstream.net by wvc (SMI-8.6/SMI-SVR4) id XAA20216; Mon, 14 Dec 1998 23:24:59 -0700 Received: from (server@localhost [127.0.0.1]) by fs1.mainstream.net (8.9.1a/8.9.1) with SMTP id BAA17409; Tue, 15 Dec 1998 01:36:34 -0500 (EST) Date: Tue, 15 Dec 1998 01:36:34 -0500 (EST) Message-Id: Errors-To: listproc@mainstream.net Reply-To: dugga@pacifier.com Originator: noban@mainstream.net Sender: noban@mainstream.net Precedence: first-class From: dugga@pacifier.com (Doug Spittler) To: Multiple recipients of list Subject: For lack of a gun... X-Listprocessor-Version: 6.0 -- ListProcessor by Anastasios Kotsikonas X-Comment: Anti-Gun-Ban list Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Content-Disposition: inline "Arlington, Wash. (AP)- A fire in which eight women died at a boarding = home last spring was started in a suicide attempt by a mentally ill resident, a newspaper reported." If the poor, unfortunate suicidal person in the above story had been able to obtain a firearm, perhaps eight innocent women would be alive today. Remember, "if it saves just one life..."... - - ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 16 Dec 1998 10:16:01 -0700 From: "David Sagers" Subject: Fwd: FEAR: fwd: ACLU ad "Did You Know the Money in Your Wallet Could Be Legally Confiscated?" Received: from wvc ([204.246.130.34]) by icarus.ci.west-valley.ut.us; Wed, 16 Dec 1998 08:47:48 -0700 Received: from americium.baremetal.com by wvc (SMI-8.6/SMI-SVR4) id PAA21084; Tue, 15 Dec 1998 15:55:26 -0700 Received: from localhost (mapinc@localhost) by americium.baremetal.com (8.9.1a/8.9.1) with SMTP id PAA18437; Tue, 15 Dec 1998 15:06:18 -0800 Received: by americium.baremetal.com (bulk_mailer v1.5); Tue, 15 Dec 1998 23:05:24 +0000 Received: (from mapinc@localhost) by americium.baremetal.com (8.9.1a/8.9.1) id PAA18227 for fear-list-outgoing@mapinc.org; Tue, 15 Dec 1998 15:05:24 -0800 X-Authentication-Warning: americium.baremetal.com: mapinc set sender to owner-fear-list@mapinc.org using -f Message-Id: Date: Tue, 15 Dec 1998 18:04:31 -0500 To: fear-list@mapinc.org From: cheechwz@mindspring.com (A H Clements) Subject: FEAR: fwd: ACLU ad "Did You Know the Money in Your Wallet Could Be Legally Confiscated?" Sender: owner-fear-list@mapinc.org Reply-To: cheechwz@mindspring.com (A H Clements) Organization: Forfeiture Endangers American Rights http://www.fear.org/ Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Content-Disposition: inline [Forwarded from the ACLU newsfeed . The ad can be seena at http://www.aclu.org/features/nytimesad121198.html ] ACLU Op-Ed Advertisement Asks: "Did You Know the Money in Your Wallet Could Be Legally Confiscated?" FOR IMMEDIATE RELEASE Friday, December 11, 1998 NEW YORK--Police agencies across the country are relieving innocent people of cash, cars and other property -- and it's all perfectly legal, the American Civil Liberties Union warned today. In the ninth installment of its public policy advertising campaign running on the op-ed page of The New York Times and The New Republic, the ACLU said that because 75 percent of American money is tainted with cocaine, police have the right to seize people's cash, as well as any other assets they can get their hands on. "In 1984, Congress gave police the right to keep and spend any 'drug-related' assets they seize," the advertisement says. "Police have since taken cars, homes, restaurants, and cash in epidemic proportions. And they can use these assets for anything from patrol cars to parties." The year-long advertising campaign, a first-ever effort for the 78-year-old organization, has run on The New York Times op-ed page once a month during 1998. Each ad contained a briefly worded message from ACLU Executive Director Ira Glasser on topical subjects ranging from the war on drugs to religious freedom to government intrusions in the bedroom. In the current ad, Glasser says that most of the victims of government forfeiture laws aren't criminals. "Like the 75-year-old grandmother who lost her home because her drug-dealing son had once lived there. Or the landscaper whose $9,000 was seized at the airport because 'only drug dealers carry that much cash.'" Those and other stories have landed the issue before Congress, prompting House Judiciary Chairman Henry Hyde, R-IL, to introduce the bi-partisan "Civil Asset Forfeiture Reform Act" to overhaul the nation's laws on property seizures. In June 1997 Congressional testimony supporting the bill, ACLU President Nadine Strossen said that reforms are critically needed because "innocent property owners, or those who have committed only minor infractions are now subject to draconian punishments and property deprivations." The bill is expected to be re-introduced in the 106th Congress, and the ACLU is urging people to support the measure. One leading historian, today's ad notes, calls forfeiture laws nothing less than a government "license to steal." "The war on drugs has become a war on the Constitution," the ad concludes. "What kind of country rewards its police for shaking down its own citizens?" To further stimulate public discussion, the ad will have an interactive component through a "message board" on the ACLU's Freedom Network Website at http://www.aclu.org/features/nytimesad121198.html. Visitors to the website will be able to access background information on the subject of this month's ad, and will be invited to post their own thoughts to an interactive message board. Today's ad concludes the op-ed series for 1998. The ACLU said that it is contemplating continuing the popular feature in the coming year. The ACLU is a nationwide, non-partisan organization dedicated to defending and preserving the Bill of Rights for all individuals through litigation, legislation and public education. Headquartered in New York City, the ACLU has 53 staffed affiliates in major cities, more than 300 chapters nationwide, and a legislative office in Washington. The bulk of its $35 million annual budget is raised by contributions from members -- 275,000 strong -- and gifts and grants from other individuals and foundations. The ACLU does not accept government funds. The new ACLU advertisement can be found at: http://www.aclu.org/features/nytimesad121198.html - - ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 16 Dec 1998 10:27:36 -0700 From: "David Sagers" Subject: Fwd: AMA "Gun Safety" hoax!! Received: from wvc ([204.246.130.34]) by icarus.ci.west-valley.ut.us; Wed, 16 Dec 1998 08:47:18 -0700 Received: from listbox.com by wvc (SMI-8.6/SMI-SVR4) id UAA21329; Tue, 15 Dec 1998 20:22:45 -0700 Received: (qmail 23234 invoked by uid 516); 16 Dec 1998 03:34:20 -0000 Delivered-To: rkba-co@majordomo.pobox.com Received: (qmail 23173 invoked from network); 16 Dec 1998 03:34:13 -0000 Received: from growl.pobox.com (208.210.124.27) by majordomo.pobox.com with SMTP; 16 Dec 1998 03:34:13 -0000 Received: from mail2.rockymtn.net (ns2.rockymtn.net [166.93.8.2]) by growl.pobox.com (VMailer) with ESMTP id CB6F27B4; Tue, 15 Dec 1998 22:33:47 -0500 (EST) Received: from 166-93-76-2.rmi.net (166-93-76-2.rmi.net [166.93.76.2]) by mail2.rockymtn.net (8.8.7/8.8.7) with SMTP id TAA26260; Tue, 15 Dec 1998 19:54:21 -0700 (MST) Message-Id: <199812160254.TAA26260@mail2.rockymtn.net> X-Sender: davisda@shell.rmi.net X-Mailer: Windows Eudora Pro Version 2.1.2 Date: Tue, 15 Dec 1998 19:55:44 -0700 To: davisda@rmi.net From: jpfo@dbeatty.worldweb.net (by way of Douglas Davis ) Subject: AMA "Gun Safety" hoax!! Sender: owner-rkba-co.new@majordomo.pobox.com Precedence: bulk Reply-To: rkba-co@majordomo.pobox.com Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Content-Disposition: inline Posted to rkba-co by jpfo@dbeatty.worldweb.net (by way of Douglas Davis = ) - ----------------------- Physicians & Firearms: What Will Your Doctor Prescribe? Your physician might soon receive a copy of the American Medical Association's (AMA) "new guide for physicians on how to counsel their patients about firearm safety."1 Funded by the anti-gun Joyce Foundation, about 70,000 copies of the guide will be distributed nationwide. Under the guise of "patient counseling," doctors using the AMA materials will be discouraging people from owning or using firearms. We haven't seen a copy of the guide yet, but it is described as "a safety primer [which] offers doctors an overview of the public health and clinical issues involved in firearm use, including a review of the epidemiology of gunshot injuries and deaths."2 We anticipate that the guide contains the bogus statistical claims that merely having a gun in your home greatly increases your risk of being killed by a person with somebody's gun. JPFO and others have debunked these statistics,3 but the gun prohibitionists will likely be peddling these stats without providing the opposing views. One section of the guide reportedly also "describes different types of guns and ammunition doctors should know about." JPFO agrees that doctors, and everyone else, should have a working knowledge of firearms. Unfortunately, however, the guide will likely describe firearms not as tools or potential life savers ... but more like a medical book might describe a virus, a poison, or a biting insect. Competent firearms instructors need not fear competition from doctors. We'd be astounded if the AMA guide teaches real gun safety, e.g., how to carry a firearm, how to position the trigger finger when not actually shooting, how to clear the chamber, how to always point the firearm in a safe direction, safe cleaning techniques, and how to remove a misfired round. And we are unaware of any plans for the AMA to build shooting ranges for its members ... or their patients. Every new wave of "gun control" activism brings a new opportunity to get our message out to interested people. Don't let the AMA's propaganda go unchallenged. Here's your action item list: 1. Buy a 25-copy bundle of JPFO's special report entitled "Disarming the Data Doctors." ($19.95 U.S. post paid). Send or deliver copies to doctors and other health care professionals. Send them anonymously if you want ... but get the information to them. Include a very brief note to say that this report will counteract the what the AMA is preaching in its new "gun violence" guide. 2. Get copies of Brasco the Bear (tm) Firearm Safety coloring books for younger kids -- so that they will learn real gun safety with a balanced view. 3. If you haven't taken a professional gun safety course, then you should enroll in one soon. You will not only learn how to operate firearms safely (and accurately), but you will also be able to see the big difference between the AMA's approach and true gun safety information. Don't forget: No other gun rights group in America gives you as many different ways to destroy "gun control" as JPFO does. Take action -- do it today! Visit our website at http://www.jpfo.org or call us at (414) = 769-0760 or fax us at (414) 483-8435. You can also send mail to: Jews For the Preservation of Firearms Ownership 2874 So. Wentworth Ave. Milwaukee, WI 53207 = =20 = =20 Endnotes: 1Deborah L. Shelton, AMA urges physicians to counsel on firearm safety, Am. Med. News, December 7, 1998, p. 57. 2 Ibid. 3 See Richard W. Stevens, Disarming the Data Doctors: How to Debunk the "Public Health" Argument for "Gun Control," The Firearms Sentinel, Winter 1997, pp. 2-6. For Help with Majordomo Commands, please send a message to: Majordomo@majordomo.pobox.com with the word Help in the body of the message - - ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 16 Dec 1998 12:33:16 -0700 From: "David Sagers" Subject: Fwd: How You Can Influence the Vote for Impeachment Received: from wvc ([204.246.130.34]) by icarus.ci.west-valley.ut.us; Wed, 16 Dec 1998 11:17:36 -0700 Received: from neptune.ConnectI.com by wvc (SMI-8.6/SMI-SVR4) id LAA22138; Wed, 16 Dec 1998 11:04:10 -0700 Received: from utbook.connecti.com (sa4-229.ConnectI.com [206.81.244.229]) by neptune.ConnectI.com (8.9.1/8.9.1) with SMTP id LAA26302; Wed, 16 Dec 1998 11:43:14 -0600 (CST) Message-Id: <3.0.5.32.19981216113453.008d0210@mailhost.connecti.com> X-Sender: butterb@mailhost.connecti.com X-Mailer: QUALCOMM Windows Eudora Pro Version 3.0.5 (32) Date: Wed, 16 Dec 1998 11:34:53 -0600 To: piml@egroups.com From: Bill Utterback Subject: How You Can Influence the Vote for Impeachment Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Content-Disposition: inline It does not take much effort for you to send one e-mail message. =20 This has been pre-digested so all you have to do is copy the=20 addresses in the To: field. The following are e-mail addresses for congresscritters who=20 currently need to be convinced to vote for impeachment: talk2jay@mail.house.gov, brian.bilbray@mail.house.gov,=20 delaware@mail.house.gov, shimkus@mail.house.gov,=20 rep.morella@mail.house.gov, rep.boehlert@mail.house.gov,=20 ben@mail.house.gov, lazio@mail.house.gov, jon.fox@mail.house.gov,=20 badger02@mail.house.gov, rep.goode@mail.house.gov,=20 rmhall@mail.house.gov, gene.taylor@mail.house.gov,=20 budmail@mail.house.gov, rep.condit@mail.house.gov,=20 carolyn.maloney@mail.house.gov, rep.boswell.ia032@mail.hou se.gov,=20 tim.roemer@mail.house.gov, christopher.john@mail.house.gov,=20 telljim@mail.house.gov, mchale@mail.house.gov,=20 murtha@mail.house.gov, bart.gordon@mail.house.gov,=20 taxes17@mail.house.gov, jim.moran@mail.house.gov,=20 jay.johnson@mail.house.gov The addresses are identified at: http://www.sm.org/exegesis/votes.html for Liberty, Bill Utterback http://www.connecti.com/~utbook - - ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 16 Dec 1998 17:21:28 -0700 From: "S. Thompson" Subject: Re: Fwd: For lack of a gun... At 04:58 PM 12/15/98 -0700, you wrote: >"Arlington, Wash. (AP)- A fire in which eight women died at a boarding home >last spring was started in a suicide attempt by a mentally ill resident, a >newspaper reported." > >If the poor, unfortunate suicidal person in the above story had been able >to obtain a firearm, perhaps eight innocent women would be alive today. > >Remember, "if it saves just one life..."... > Oh really! Wouldn't you just love to see Scott Howell stand up and read this at the legislature? It does us no service to propose that seriously mentally ill people be allowed access to firearms in order to commit suicide. Certainly this illustrates the need for better mental health care, or possibly even assisted suicide, but it's not much of an argument for firearms rights. Sarah Sarah Thompson, M.D. http://www.therighter.com Stop the Gun Ban! NO-lympics 2002! Check out http://www.therighter.com/column/Olympics.html And now you can link directly to the Nolympics page too! - - ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 16 Dec 1998 17:48:52 -0700 From: "David Sagers" Subject: Fwd: The Left has formed phone banks and are pushing hard against Impeachment Received: from wvc ([204.246.130.34]) by icarus.ci.west-valley.ut.us; Wed, 16 Dec 1998 15:21:02 -0700 Received: from fs1.mainstream.net by wvc (SMI-8.6/SMI-SVR4) id PAA22409; Wed, 16 Dec 1998 15:07:35 -0700 Received: from (server@localhost [127.0.0.1]) by fs1.mainstream.net (8.9.1a/8.9.1) with SMTP id RAA15285; Wed, 16 Dec 1998 17:19:02 -0500 (EST) Date: Wed, 16 Dec 1998 17:19:02 -0500 (EST) Message-Id: <367586AF.4A00@attymail.com> Errors-To: listproc@mainstream.net Reply-To: jurist@attymail.com Originator: noban@mainstream.net Sender: noban@mainstream.net Precedence: first-class From: Jurist To: Multiple recipients of list Subject: The Left has formed phone banks and are pushing hard against Impeachment X-Listprocessor-Version: 6.0 -- ListProcessor by Anastasios Kotsikonas X-Comment: Anti-Gun-Ban list Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Content-Disposition: inline - - Don't let them win once again. Attention RKBA Defenders, This is no time to get comfortable. This morning I called every fence- sitting representative on this page. =20 Please call and say "please tell the Representative to vote for impeachment" and then move onto the next representative. The e-mail servers have been backed up and are no longer even being read. Your call really does count! We need to get this guy out! Fourty minutes out of your lifetime in what may be the last best chance of casting out this abomination. http://www.freerepublic.com/forum/a3674cc9939ea.htm Thank you so very much. Rick V. >"Still if you will not fight for the right when you can easily win=20 without bloodshed, if you will not fight when your victory will be sure and not so costly, you may come to the moment when you will have to fight with all the odds against you and only a precarious chance for survival. There may be a worse case. You may have to fight when there is no chance of victory, because it is better to perish than to live as slaves." - -- Winston Churchill. - --=20 The Right to Self Defense is a Fundamental Human Right - RKBA - - ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 17 Dec 1998 14:42:44 -0700 From: "David Sagers" Subject: Fwd: A SOLDIERS CHRISTMAS Received: from wvc ([204.246.130.34]) by icarus.ci.west-valley.ut.us; Thu, 17 Dec 1998 08:47:36 -0700 Received: from THIOKOL.COM by wvc (SMI-8.6/SMI-SVR4) id IAA23278; Thu, 17 Dec 1998 08:34:03 -0700 Received: from UTAH-Message_Server by THIOKOL.COM with Novell_GroupWise; Thu, 17 Dec 1998 08:45:15 -0700 Message-Id: X-Mailer: Novell GroupWise 5.2 Date: Thu, 17 Dec 1998 08:44:45 -0700 From: "Neil W. Sagers" To: Dsagers@ci.west-valley.ut.us, BLACKIN@THIOKOL.COM Subject: A SOLDIERS CHRISTMAS Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Content-Disposition: inline A SOLDIERS CHRISTMAS=20 'TWAS THE NIGHT BEFORE CHRISTMAS, HE LIVED ALL ALONE, IN A ONE BEDROOM HOUSE MADE OF PLASTER AND STONE. I HAD COME DOWN THE CHIMNEY WITH PRESENTS TO GIVE, AND TO SEE JUST WHO IN THIS HOME DID LIVE. I LOOKED ALL ABOUT, A STRANGE SIGHT I DID SEE, NO TINSEL, NO PRESENTS, NOT EVEN A TREE. NO STOCKING BY MANTLE, JUST BOOTS FILLED WITH SAND, ON THE WALL HUNG PICTURES OF FAR DISTANT LANDS. WITH MEDALS AND BADGES, AWARDS OF ALL KINDS, A SOBER THOUGHT CAME THROUGH MY MIND. FOR THIS HOUSE WAS DIFFERENT, IT WAS DARK AND DREARY, I FOUND THE HOME OF A SOLDIER, ONCE I COULD SEE CLEARLY. THE SOLDIER LAY SLEEPING, SILENT, ALONE, CURLED UP ON THE FLOOR IN THIS ONE BEDROOM HOME. THE FACE WAS SO GENTLE, THE ROOM IN SUCH DISORDER, NOT HOW I PICTURED A UNITED STATES SOLDIER. WAS THIS THE HERO OF WHOM I'D JUST READ? CURLED UP ON A PONCHO, THE FLOOR FOR A BED? I REALIZED THE FAMILIES THAT I SAW THIS NIGHT, OWED THEIR LIVES TO THESE SOLDIERS WHO WERE WILLING TO FIGHT. SOON ROUND THE WORLD, THE CHILDREN WOULD PLAY, AND GROWNUPS WOULD CELEBRATE A BRIGHT CHRISTMAS DAY. THEY ALL ENJOYED FREEDOM EACH MONTH OF THE YEAR, BECAUSE OF THE SOLDIERS, LIKE THE ONE LYING HERE. I COULDN'T HELP WONDER HOW MANY LAY ALONE, ON A COLD CHRISTMAS EVE IN A LAND FAR FROM HOME. THE VERY THOUGHT BROUGHT A TEAR TO MY EYE, I DROPPED TO MY KNEES AND STARTED TO CRY. THE SOLDIER AWAKENED AND I HEARD A ROUGH VOICE, "SANTA DON'T CRY, THIS LIFE IS MY CHOICE; I FIGHT FOR FREEDOM, I DON'T ASK FOR MORE, MY LIFE IS MY GOD, MY COUNTRY, MY CORPS."; THE SOLDIER ROLLED OVER AND DRIFTED TO SLEEP, I COULDN'T CONTROL IT, I CONTINUED TO WEEP. I KEPT WATCH FOR HOURS, SO SILENT AND STILL AND WE BOTH SHIVERED FROM THE COLD NIGHT'S CHILL. I DIDN'T WANT TO LEAVE ON THAT COLD, DARK, NIGHT, THIS GUARDIAN OF HONOR SO WILLING TO FIGHT. THEN THE SOLDIER ROLLED OVER, WITH A VOICE SOFT AND PURE, WHISPERED, "CARRY ON SANTA, IT'S CHRISTMAS DAY, ALL IS SECURE."; ONE LOOK AT MY WATCH, AND I KNEW HE WAS RIGHT, MERRY CHRISTMAS MY FRIEND, AND TO ALL A GOOD NIGHT. PLEASE. Would you do me the kind favor of sending this to as may people as you can? Christmas will be coming soon and we should all be aware of where credit for our being able to celebrate these festivities is due. Let's = try in this small way to pay a tiny bit of what we owe. Make people stop and think of our heroes, living and dead, who sacrificed themselves for us.=20 Please, do your small part to plant this small Seed Belleau Wood "Oh, the snowflakes fell in silence over Belleau Wood that night For a Christmas truce had been declared=20 By both sides of the fight As we lay there in our trenches The silence broke in two By a German soldier singing A song that we all knew Though I did not know the language The song was "Silent Night"; Then I heard my buddy whisper, "All is calm and all is bright"; Then the fear and doubt surrounded me 'Cause I'd die if I was wrong But I stood up in my trench And=20 I began to sing along Then across the frozen battlefield Another's voice joined in Until one by one each man became A singer of the hymn Then I thought that I was dreaming For right there in my sight Stood the German soldier 'Neath the falling flakes of white And he raised his hand and smiled at me As if he seemed to say Here's hoping we both live To see us find a better way Then the devil's clock struck midnight And the skies lit up again And the battlefield where heaven stood Was blown to hell again But for just one fleeting moment The answer seemed so clear=20 Heaven's not beyond the clouds It's just beyond the fear No, heaven's not beyond the clouds It's for us to find it here Belleau Wood: Joe Henry and Garth Brooks Copy Write 1997 - - ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 17 Dec 1998 17:47:51 -0700 From: "David Sagers" Subject: [Fwd: Fw: [Fwd: A Miserable Scenario part 1]] Received: from wvc ([204.246.130.34]) by icarus.ci.west-valley.ut.us; Wed, 16 Dec 1998 22:14:07 -0700 Received: from mail.sisna.com by wvc (SMI-8.6/SMI-SVR4) id WAA22807; Wed, 16 Dec 1998 22:00:41 -0700 Message-Id: <199812170500.WAA22807@wvc> Received: from rserzen.sisna.com [209.210.178.101] by mail.sisna.com (SMTPD32-4.06) id A25B9F010C; Wed, 16 Dec 1998 22:10:51 MST Date: Fri, 21 Feb 1997 01:57:52 -0700 From: Roger Serzen <"rserzen@sisna.com"@sisna.com> Reply-To: "rserzen@sisna.com"@sisna.com Organization: Sunrise Medical X-Mailer: Mozilla 3.01C-KIT (Win95; U) To: DAVID SAGERS Subject: [Fwd: Fw: [Fwd: A Miserable Scenario part 1]] Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: message/rfc822 Received: from mailhost.pioneer-net.com [206.58.81.4] by mail.sisna.com with ESMTP (SMTPD32-4.06) id AACB14D7007E; Tue, 15 Dec 1998 22:53:15 MST Received: from obsidian (rp28.pioneer-net.com [206.58.81.43]) by mailhost.pioneer-net.com (8.8.5/8.8.5) with SMTP id WAA32718 for ; Tue, 15 Dec 1998 22:59:04 -0800 Message-ID: <003401be28b8$5f944a80$2b513ace@obsidian> From: "obsidian" To: "spearmon" Subject: Fw: [Fwd: A Miserable Scenario part 1] Date: Tue, 15 Dec 1998 21:53:13 -0800 X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 4.72.3110.1 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V4.72.3110.3 Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/mixed; boundary="=_AFF8ED2E.77167B7B" - --=_AFF8ED2E.77167B7B Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Content-Disposition: inline heres a little story to get your blood moving - -----Original Message----- From: Ron Zepp Date: Tuesday, December 15, 1998 7:21 PM Subject: [Fwd: A Miserable Scenario part 1] > > - --=_AFF8ED2E.77167B7B Content-Type: message/rfc822 Received: from mail.tignet.com ([199.231.128.3]) by mta1.mailsrvcs.net (InterMail v03.02.04 118 119) with ESMTP id <19981216004806.EIWX14453@mail.tignet.com> for ; Tue, 15 Dec 1998 18:48:06 -0600 Received: from ron.tampabay.rr.com (dt0d3nb3.tampabay.rr.com [24.92.171.179]) by mail.tignet.com (8.9.1/8.9.1) with SMTP id UAA03829 for ; Tue, 15 Dec 1998 20:44:51 -0500 Message-Id: <2.2.32.19981216004948.006bb638@mail.tignet.com> X-Sender: atozstuff-atoz@mail.tignet.com X-Mailer: Windows Eudora Pro Version 2.2 (32) Date: Tue, 15 Dec 1998 19:49:48 -0500 To: zeppr@gte.net From: atozstuff Subject: A Miserable Scenario part 1 Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Content-Disposition: inline >Return-Path: >Mailing-List: ListBot mailing list contact membercouncil-help@listbot.com >Delivered-To: mailing list membercouncil@listbot.com >From: REBarnes50@aol.com >Date: Sat, 12 Dec 1998 09:35:26 EST >To: membercouncil@listbot.com >Subject: A Miserable Scenario part 1 > >Member Council of Tampa Bay - http://home.tampabay.rr.com/membercouncil > >The following has been forwarded for your reading. I almost said "your >reading pleasure". It should push a lot of your buttons....Part 1 >Robert >Florida >=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D= =3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D= =3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D > >Subj: A Miserable Scenario >Date: 12/12/98 12:07:39 AM Eastern Standard Time >From: brant@nettally.com (Chaisson, Brant) >To: fssa-talk@freenet.tlh.fl.us ('FSSA') >CC: trpc-talk@tfn.net ('Tallahassee Rifle and Pistol Club') > >Sundown at Coffin Rock >by Raymond K. Paden > >The old man walked slowly through the dry, fallen leaves of autumn, = his=20 >practiced eye automatically choosing the bare and stony places in the = trail=20 >for his feet. There was scarcely a sound as he passed, though his left = knee=20 >was stiff with scar tissue. He grunted occasionally as the tight = sinews=20 >pulled. Damn chainsaw, he thought. >Behind him, the boy shuffled along, trying to imitate his grandfather, = but=20 >unable to mimic the silent motion that the old man had learned during=20 >countless winter days upon this wooded mountain in pursuit of game. = He's=20 >fifteen years old, the old man thought. Plenty old enough to be = learning.=20 > But that was another time, another America. His mind drifted, and he = saw=20 >himself, a fifteen-year-old boy following in the footsteps of his own=20 >grandfather, clutching a twelve gauge in his trembling hands as they=20 >tracked a wounded whitetail. >The leg was hurting worse now, and he slowed his pace a bit. Plenty of=20 >time. >It should have been my own son here with me now, the old man thought = sadly.=20 > But Jason had no interest, no understanding. He cared for nothing but=20 >pounding on the keys of that damned computer terminal. He knew nothing=20 >about the woods, or where food came from...or freedom. And that's my = fault,=20 >isn't it? >The old man stopped and held up his hand, motioning for the boy to look. = In=20 >the small clearing ahead, the deer stood motionless, watching them. It = was=20 >a scraggly buck, underfed and sickly, but the boy's eyes lit up with=20 >excitement. It had been many years since they had seen even a single=20 >whitetail here on the mountain. After the hunting had stopped, the=20 >population had exploded. The deer had eaten the mountain almost bare = until=20 >erosion had become a serious problem in some places. That following = winter,=20 >three starving does had wandered into the old man's yard, trying to eat = the=20 >bark off of his pecan trees, and he had wished the "animal rights" = fanatics=20 >could have been there then. It was against the law, but old man knew a=20 >higher law, and he took an axe into the yard and killed the starving=20 >beasts. They did not have the strength to run. >The buck finally turned and loped away, and they continued down the = trail=20 >to the river. When they came to the "Big Oak," the old man turned and=20 >pushed through the heavy brush beside the trail and the boy followed,=20 >wordlessly. The old man knew that Thomas was curious about their = leaving=20 >the trail, but the boy had learned to move silently (well, almost) and = that=20 >meant no talking. When they came to "Coffin Rock," the old man sat = down=20 >upon it and motioned for the boy to join him. >"You see this rock, shaped like a casket?" the old man asked. "Yes = sir."=20 >The old man smiled. The boy was respectful and polite. He loved the=20 >outdoors, too. Everything a man could ask in a grandson ....or a son. >"I want you to remember this place, and what I'm about to tell you. A = lot=20 >of it isn't going to make any sense to you, but it's important and one = day=20 >you'll understand it well enough. The old man paused. Now that he was = here,=20 >he didn't really know where to start. >"Before you were born," he began at last, "this country was different. = I've=20 >told you about hunting, about how everybody who obeyed the law could = own=20 >guns. A man could speak out, anywhere, without worrying about whether = he'd=20 >get back home or not. School was different, too. A man could send his = kids=20 >to a church school, or a private school, or even teach them at home. = But=20 >even in the public schools, they didn't spend all their time trying to=20 >brainwash you like they do at yours now." The old man paused, and was=20 >silent for many minutes. The boy was still, watching a chipmunk scavenging= =20 >beside a fallen tree below them. >"Things don't ever happen all at once, boy. They just sort of sneak up = on=20 >you. Sure, we knew guns were important; we just didn't think it would = ever=20 >happen in America. But we had to do something about crime, they said. = It=20 >was a crisis. Everything was a crisis! It was a drug crisis, or a = terrorism=20 >crisis, or street crime, or gang crime. Even a 'health care' crisis was = an=20 >excuse to take away a little more of our rights." The old man turned = to=20 >look at his grandson. >"They ever let you read a thing called the Constitution down there at = your=20 >school?" The boy solemnly shook his head. "Well, the Fourth Amendment's=20= >still in there. It says there won't be any unreasonable searches and=20 >seizures. It says you're safe in your own home." The old man shrugged.=20 >"That had to go. It was a crisis! They could kick your door open any = time,=20 >day or night, and come in with guns blazing if they thought you had = drugs=20 >...or later, guns. Oh, at first it was just registration-to keep the = guns=20 >out of the hands of criminals! But that didn't work, of course, and = then=20 >later when they wanted to take 'em they knew where to look. They = banned=20 >'assault rifles', and then 'sniper rifles', and 'Saturday night specials.'= =20 >Everything you saw on the TV or in the movies was against us. God knows = the=20 >news people were! And the schools were teaching our kids that nobody = needed=20 >guns anymore. We tried to take a stand, but we felt like the whole face = of=20 >our country had changed and we were left outside." >"Me and a friend of mine, when we saw what was happening, we came and = built=20 >a secret place up here on the mountain. A place where we could put our = guns=20 >until we needed them. We figured some day Americans would remember what = it=20 >was like to be free, and what kind of price we had to pay for that = freedom.=20 > So we hid our guns instead of losing them." > > >______________________________________________________________________ >To unsubscribe, write to membercouncil-unsubscribe@listbot.com >Start Your Own FREE Email List at http://www.listbot.com/ > > - --=_AFF8ED2E.77167B7B-- - - ------------------------------ End of utah-firearms-digest V2 #116 ***********************************