From: owner-utah-firearms-digest@lists.xmission.com (utah-firearms-digest) To: utah-firearms-digest@lists.xmission.com Subject: utah-firearms-digest V2 #172 Reply-To: utah-firearms-digest Sender: owner-utah-firearms-digest@lists.xmission.com Errors-To: owner-utah-firearms-digest@lists.xmission.com Precedence: bulk utah-firearms-digest Sunday, January 9 2000 Volume 02 : Number 172 ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Date: Sat, 25 Dec 99 16:15:00 -0700 From: scott.bergeson@ucs.org (SCOTT BERGESON) Subject: GOUtah! Alert #38 - 22 December 1999 2/2 [ ...Continued From Previous Message ] It's Your National Forest - KEEP OUT! Received 18 December 1999 from Weldon Clark, Member of the NRA Board of Directors If you enjoy any outdoor activities in your National Forests your days are numbered. Bill Clinton is going to put a stop your recreation with a stroke of the pen. What will be effected? Mountain Biking, Horse Back Riding, ATV's, Motorcycles, Hunting, Fishing, etc. How will he do this? By blocking your access by motorized vehicle to some 50 Million Acres of your own land. It's as simple as that. Think this is more "Black Helicopter" conspiracy ranting? Look at your Forest Service WEB site: http://www.roadless.fs.fed.us When you look at this WEB site use your head and take the time to look past their simple sounding pronouncements of what they say they are up to. Look at what they're bragging about in the "in the news" section. Note that this has nothing to do with partisan politics or the right/left battles. This act by Bill Clinton completely bypasses the congress and the checks and balances against abuse of power which are the bases of our freedom. In Part One of this plan, there will be a prohibition on "road building" in National Forests. On the surface this seems like a small thing. But when you see them talk about maintaining the safety of existing roads know that they plan to close all "unmaintained" roads. By doing thing this you will no longer have vehicle access to some 380,000 miles of your own roads. In Part Two they finish the job by banning all "off road vehicles" from use in "roadless" areas. Perhaps you consider yourself an environmentalist and support this. But consider; if you allow this to become law by royal decree, to pass unchallenged, the next time a non-environmentalist President gets into office he can use the same precedent to reverse the will of congress like Clinton by Royal Edict. The sword of tyranny cuts both ways. Maybe you're a mountain biker who thinks this just gets dirt bikers, etc. Don't fall for that "get the other guy" trap. Look at what the folks behind this are really after, the complete prohibition of human activity in our national forests. So they play you against the dirt bike folks, or the hunters against the ATV guys - makes no difference; if those of us who use National Forests for legitimate purposes don't hang together and support each other's rights - we shall all hang separately. YOU MUST ACT TO STOP THIS. HERE'S HOW: 1. Please contact the Blue Ribbon Coalition for the very latest information on the biggest land grab in American history: http://www.sharetrails.org/choice.html 2. Forward this email to everyone you know. 3. You must send a written objection during the comment period or you will lose your legal standing to object after this passes: Here's how you do it. Use this form: http://www.fs.fed.us/r2/roadless/Roadless_Public_Comment_Form.ht Write your comments to the: USDA Forest Service-CAET, Roadless Areas NOI, PO Box 221090, Salt Lake City, Utah, 84122. Fax them at 801-517-1021 email them at: roadless/wo_caet-slc@fs.fed.us 4. Call and write to your U.S. Congressional Delegation, especially Jim Hansen (R-1st District of Utah): http://www.congress.nw.dc.us/wnd/ 5. Forward this message. Other nifty links to your governments efforts to keep you out of your land: http://www.fs.fed.us/r2/roadless/roadless.html http://www.more.abcnews.go.com/sections/science/DailyNews/forests991013.html http://www.fs.fed.us/r2/roadless/Roadless_Questions_and_Answers.htm GOUtah Note: Regardless of where you stand on the Utah environmental and wilderness debate, remember that if you don't have private vehicle access to public lands, they in essence become private, restricted reserves. No one is going to walk from Salt Lake to Delta or Dirtwater with all their hunting gear or camping kit on their back. If you can't get to where you're going with a private vehicle. you're out of luck. Act on this today. Give the Gift of Freedom for Christmas We at GOUtah! wish you and yours a very happy holiday season. While the holidays are indeed hectic and sometimes the real meaning gets lost in the commercial clutter, GOUtah! suggests you gather your loved ones around you and tell them what the gift of freedom means to you. Discuss as a family what you can do today to insure the gift of freedom is passed to the next generation tomorrow. Set aside the price of at least one Christmas present this year and donate that cost to a worthwhile cause, one actively involved in protecting gun rights and individual freedom. A local or national gun-rights group, a local or state pro-gun political candidate, a youth firearms program or some other similar cause would very much appreciate your financial support and involvement. Buy a friend a membership in the NRA or some other gun rights group. Buy a friend a gun-rights book. Take a friend shooting. Buy them a Utah CCW training class. Become a pro-gun delegate in your political party. Volunteer your time to a pro-gun candidate's campaign or to a gun-rights organization. Give the gift of freedom every Christmas! It starts with you! GOUtah! Gun Rights (and Wrongs) QuoteWatch. "Yeah, (Leavitt's) finally heard the message. It's not a new message, but I think he's clearly heard it this time." -- Rob Bishop, Chair of the Utah Republican Party, regarding Gov. Mike Leavitt's public retreat from his vocal leadership of the Utah anti-gun movement, as reported in the Salt Lake Tribune, 18 December 1999 "I think the conservative faction has frightened the governor, and made him feel squeamish about his own leadership." -- Ted Wilson, Director of the Hinkley Institute of Politics at the University of Utah, and the spokesperson for the Utah anti-gun petition coalition, as reported in the same article in the Salt Lake Tribune, 18 December 1999 "I can see now (Leavitt) has no stomach for such a fight." -- Steve Gunn, spokesperson for Utahns Against Gun Violence, from comments made in the Salt Lake Tribune, 17 December 1999. This concludes the GOUtah! Political and Legislative Alert #38 - 22 December 1999. We hope this information will be of assistance to you in defending your firearms rights. Remember that getting this information is meaningless unless YOU ACT ON IT TODAY. If you just read it and dump it in the trash, your gun rights, and the gun rights of future generations go in the trash with it. Get involved, get active and get vocal! Copyright 1999 by GOUtah! All rights reserved. - - ------------------------------ Date: Sat, 25 Dec 99 16:15:00 -0700 From: scott.bergeson@ucs.org (SCOTT BERGESON) Subject: LPU: Fwd: UPS needs your "e-mail gift" ASAP! - ----- To: lputah@qsicorp.com From: AHoward76@aol.com Date: Fri, 24 Dec 1999 18:59:53 EST Subject: LPU: Fwd: UPS needs your "e-mail gift" ASAP! Date: Fri, 24 Dec 1999 12:24:57 -0600 From: "Chris W.Stark" To: email-subscribers@goa-texas.org - -----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE----- [Sorry, munging in transmission corrupts that.] GUN OWNERS ALLIANCE !!ALERT!! Chris W. Stark - Director P.O. Box 1924 Crosby, Texas 77532-1924 Ph. (281) 787-4111 Fax (281) 328-7505 http://www.GOA-Texas.org email: Director@GOA-Texas.org 12/24/1999 UPS needs your "e-mail gift" ASAP! Copyright 1999 by Gun Owners Alliance (GOA-Texas). Republication permitted ONLY if this e-mail alert is left intact in its original state. Since it is the season for giving (supposedly), we certainly hope you have remembered our Boycott against UPS, and have given them the gift of your e-mail, like the one below from a dedicated activist who subscribes to the GOA-Texas e-mail alerts. For those of you who would like to read about this boycott, go to: http://www.goa-texas.org/UPS-5.htm http://www.goa-texas.org/UPS-6.htm If you cannot access websites, e-mail us that you would like us to e-mail you the old alerts, and we will do so. Here are the e-mail addresses for UPS, AirBorne Express and RPS. Give them the gift they so richly deserve: Your disgust for their anti-gun policies. National Media Relations - Norman Black Voice - 404-828-7593 Pager - 888-856-8816 E-Mail - norman.black@ups.com International Media Relations - John Flick Voice - 404-828-6346 E-Mail - jflick@ups.com Reputation Management - Peggy Gardner Voice - 404-828-6051 E-Mail - pgardner@ups.com Marketing and Olympics - Susan Rosenberg Voice - 404-828-6130 E-Mail - srosenberg@ups.com Executive Communications - Steve Soltis Voice - 404-828-4029 E-Mail - ssoltis@ups.com Public Affairs - Tad Segal Voice - 202-675-3381 E-Mail - tsegal@corpmail.ups.com Information Technology - Joan Schnorbus Voice - 201-828-4937 E-Mail - com1jns@is.ups.com Louisville, Kentucky UPS Airline - Ken Shapero Voice - 502-329-6522 E-Mail - air2kes@air.ups.com Here is the RPS e-mail WEB FORM to tell them the good news: http://www.shiprps.com/cgi-win/rcu100ex.exe?func=3Dentry (previous e-mail address we gave for RPS has been blocked!) ["=3D" is also a result of munging, but I don't know the correction] Here are some AIRBORNE EXPRESS e-mail addresses to tell them the good news: cac.web@airborne.com webmaster@airborne.com THE UPS BOYCOTT LIVES ON!!! Dear Sir, I just finished shipping the last of my Christmas gifts last week. I wanted to let you know that I avoided UPS and spent $30.32 to ship via the US Postal Service specifically because of your recent actions regarding the shipping of handguns. While my $30.32 means very little to you, there are over 60 million gun owners in America, and many of us have sworn to boycott your company. There are other simple and effective actions that you could have taken to combat theft of handguns shipped via your company - actions that would not dump the entire burden and cost on legitimate handgun consumers. Instead, you chose to require all handguns to be shipped by your expensive next-day air option. This is your choice to make - just as the choice is mine to make to refuse to do business with a company hostile to gun owners and the gun industry. If your company should chose to adopt a more reasonable approach to securing handgun shipments, I may bring my business back to UPS. Until that time, every gift and business package I have to ship will be carried by the US Postal Service. Sincerely, (name omitted for privacy) Help Support the work of Gun Owners Alliance! Go to: http://www.goa-texas.org/members.htm Copyright 1999 by Gun Owners Alliance (GOA-Texas). Republication permitted ONLY if this e-mail alert is left intact in its original state. The views herein do not necessarily reflect the views of any other individual or organization, than Gun Owners Alliance (GOA-Texas). We do not officially represent Gun Owners of America. Go to http://www.goa-texas.org/TXsig.htm for more information. TO SUBSCRIBE TO OUR E-MAIL ALERTS, send an e-mail to: subscribe@GOA-Texas.org ...and in the body of the message, type the word "subscribe". - - ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 27 Dec 99 11:23:00 -0700 From: scott.bergeson@ucs.org (SCOTT BERGESON) Subject: WARNING: UPS theft problem damages your rights 2/2 [ ...Continued From Previous Message ] biggest federal gun-trafficking investigation in Maryland in years. "It was of major significance to us," she said. "The sole purpose of getting these guns on the street was to put them in the hands of criminals. The fact that you had so many guns out there, it brings up people's greatest fears." Battaglia said she met with UPS officials last summer to discuss ways to prevent thefts. She praised the company's new shipping policy for guns. "I was amazed at how responsive they were," she said. UPS says it aggressively investigates all reports of stolen or missing firearms. But the local gun dealer whose shipments were stolen at Landover said he also had trouble getting UPS to investigate the missing weapons. According to documents filed in federal court, the thieves at the UPS distribution center at 8325 Ardwick-Ardmore Rd. began discreetly, taking a gun or two at a time, spaced several days apart. The first gun -- a Smith & Wesson .357-caliber revolver -- was taken on Feb. 18, when a box addressed to Maryland Small Arms, an Upper Marlboro gun dealer, vanished from the premises. Eight days later, a UPS driver delivered another package to Maryland Small Arms that had been sent by Springfield, Mass.-based Smith & Wesson. The gun dealer refused the package, because the box had been tampered with. Two 9mm semiautomatic pistols were later determined to be missing, according to court records. Three UPS package loaders -- Darris Marlon Banks, 19, of Temple Hills; Carlos Ramon Jones, 28, of Landover; and Anthony Rondell Barnett, 28, of Lothian -- have been convicted in the weapon thefts. All worked the overnight shift at Landover, making $10.75 an hour. Banks was the first to figure out that packages addressed to Maryland Small Arms contained firearms and that they were easy to steal, according to court records. He tipped off Barnett, who pulled Jones into the scheme. On March 3, according to affidavits filed by the ATF, Banks grabbed a box off the conveyor belt and carried it into the back of a brown UPS delivery truck on the loading line. All three men jumped inside, where Banks sliced open the package and pulled out four Smith & Wesson semiautomatic pistols. Banks handed the weapons to Barnett, who in turn gave them to Jones, according to court records. Jones took off his jacket and stuffed the guns in the sleeves so he could sneak them out of the building. The workers re-sealed the empty package. Later that morning, it was delivered to Maryland Small Arms. Carl Roy, a manager at the store, said employees called UPS several times about the gun thefts but couldn't get the company to respond. "UPS wouldn't do anything," he said. "We complained and complained, but they wouldn't even come out to take a report." Meantime, the thieves grew more brazen. On March 19, they stuck a new address label on a package containing 10 Smith & Wesson .357-caliber revolvers and had the whole shipment delivered to Banks's home in Temple Hills, according to court records. On March 24, they did the same thing to a box of nine Beretta semiautomatic pistols that had been ordered by Maryland Small Arms. Authorities say the thieves resold the guns quickly on the street for about $300 on average, a hefty discount from their suggested retail prices of $450 to $650. One of the 9mm semiautomatic pistols that were stolen on Feb. 26 was used less than 36 hours later in a carjacking in Temple Hills, records show. Police say Dante Devon Hamm, 20, of the 2500 block of St. Claire Drive in Temple Hills, stole a 1994 Lexus ES 300 at gunpoint from Johnny's Sub Shop on Iverson Street. D.C. police spotted the car a few hours later and arrested Hamm at the wheel. According to authorities, Hamm bought the pistol from Banks, his longtime neighbor and friend. Hamm has pleaded guilty to federal charges of carjacking and use of a handgun in a crime of violence. He is to be sentenced Jan. 10. Another gun stolen from the UPS distribution center surfaced on May 25, when Prince George's police arrested Kenneth Vincent Francis, 22, of the 2400 block of Iverson Street in Temple Hills, and charged him with possession of cocaine and marijuana, according to authorities. Police say Francis was carrying a Beretta .45-caliber semiautomatic pistol. He later told ATF agents he had bought the gun in early April for $350 from a convicted cocaine dealer who had acquired the firearm from Banks. The UPS gun theft ring was broken up in late March, when ATF agents obtained a search warrant and found two of the stolen weapons at Banks's home in Temple Hills. Banks later cooperated with investigators under a limited-immunity agreement and provided information that led to the arrests of Jones and Barnett. Banks pleaded guilty to one count of possessing stolen firearms and is awaiting sentencing in federal court. Jones pleaded guilty to the same charge and was sentenced to 30 months in prison. Barnett pleaded guilty to one count of theft of firearms and was sentenced to four months in prison. Records also show that Jones had a long criminal history before he was hired by UPS in May 1997. He was convicted of manufacturing and distributing cocaine in November 1990, according to Prince George's County Circuit Court records. Four years later, he was charged with first-degree murder in what prosecutors described as a "drug-related homicide." The charge was dropped when two witnesses refused to testify, court records show. Godlewski, the UPS spokesman, said the company does conduct background checks of all job applicants. But he acknowledged that some criminals slip by. "UPS believes that most people are honest," he said. "Are bad apples going to get through? Absolutely." 1999 The Washington Post Company - ----------------------- NOTE: In accordance with Title 17 U.S.C. section 107, this material is distributed without profit or payment to those who have expressed a prior interest in receiving this information for non-profit research and educational purposes only. For more information go to: http://www.law.cornell.edu/uscode/17/107.shtml - ----------------------- UPS Boycott As you probably know, UPS announced that it no longer accepts ground shipment of handguns. Moreover, for practical purposes air shipment is now likely to require you to go to a UPS office: Handguns may only be shipped via Next Day Air, Next Day Air Early AM and Next Day Saver with the "Adult Signature Required" label properly affixed. Handguns are prohibited from the UPS Ground system, SonicAir BestFlight Service, On-Call Air Pickup, Internet Shipping, Letter Centers (drop Boxes), or One-time Pickup requests. UPS will accept handguns from Daily Pickup accounts & Customer Counters. Packages [with] handguns must be segregated. The driver or clerk must be informed which packages contain handguns. Authorized Shipping Outlets & Commercial Counters are prohibited from accepting any firearms for UPS. UPS Corporate Headquarters United Parcel Service of America, Inc. 55 Glenlake Parkway, NE Atlanta, GA 30328 1-800-PICK-UPS (1-800-742-5877) UPS E-Mail: customer.service@ups.com norman.black@ups.com jflick@ups.com srosenberg@ups.com com1jns@is.ups.com pgardner@ups.com ssoltis@ups.com tsegal@corpmail.ups.com air2kes@air.ups.com RPS e-mail WEB http://www.ups.com AIRBORNE EXPRESS e-mail: cac.web@airborne.com webmaster@airborne.com Also see Leroy Pyle's UPS boycott site http://www.paulrevere.org/boycottups/ From The 2ndAmendmentNews Team Feel free to forward our alerts. What To Do If The Police Come To Confiscate Your Militia Weapons: see http://www.2ndamendment.net To join, send text "SUBSCRIBE 2nd-Amendment-News" to listserver@frostbit.com Cordially Yours, The 2ndAmendmentNews Team - - ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 27 Dec 99 11:23:00 -0700 From: scott.bergeson@ucs.org (SCOTT BERGESON) Subject: WARNING: UPS theft problem damages your rights 1/2 - ----- To: 2nd-Amendment-News@frostbit.com From: "Weldon Clark" Subject: WARNING: UPS theft problem damages your rights Date: Sun, 26 Dec 1999 20:16:41 -0500 WARNING: UPS theft problem damages your rights Here's something to send to your acquaintances: The news article below shows that UPS has a big employee theft problem, which we never would have heard about if they were not stealing firearms. The thefts are not surprising when you consider UPS' attitude and whom they hire to handle your valuables. When nothing happened, the three UPS cargo handlers - one of them a convicted crack dealer - grew bolder... They grabbed entire packages...slapped on new address labels and had [UPS] deliver them home for free... 'UPS wouldn't do anything' [said the gun store manager]...We complained and complained, but they wouldn't even...take a report.' If you used to use UPS in your shipping you might call 1-800-PICK-UPS every time you ship and tell them why you won't be using them. Source: Washington Post http://www.washingtonpost.com/wp-dyn/metro/A30332-1999Dec23.html When Guns Don't Arrive at Their Destinations By Craig Whitlock Washington Post Staff Writer Friday, December 24, 1999; Page A1 Even the men convicted of stealing guns from the United Parcel Service distribution center in Landover were surprised by how easy it was to pick them off the conveyor belt and get them out of the building. They started cautiously, slicing open cardboard boxes addressed to a Prince George's County gun shop, removing one or two handguns and taking them out by hiding them under their clothes. When nothing happened, the three UPS cargo handlers -- one of them a convicted crack dealer -- grew bolder, according to affidavits filed in U.S. District Court in Greenbelt. They grabbed entire packages filled with revolvers and semiautomatic pistols, slapped on new address labels and had their employer deliver them home for free. Before they were arrested by federal agents in March and April, the three UPS workers stole 29 handguns and sold them on the streets for $250 to $350. One of the firearms was used in an armed carjacking less than 36 hours after it was stolen from a UPS shipment. Only eight have been recovered. Authorities say the UPS case illustrates how -- despite increasingly strict controls on gun sales to individuals -- package delivery firms, where security is often lax, often are an easy target for criminals intent on obtaining weapons. "Criminals are going to go to the path of least resistance," said Mike Campbell, a spokesman in the Baltimore office of the Bureau of Alcohol, Tobacco and Firearms, which investigated the UPS thefts. "They are going to find whatever way they can to get the guns. So if they can find somebody on the inside to help them, they will." In 1998, 941 firearms were reported stolen from interstate shipments, most of them from commercial carriers such as UPS, according to ATF figures. But federal officials concede that they have no idea how many of the estimated 5 million guns that are shipped each year by commercial carrier are stolen. Licensed gun dealers and manufacturers are required by federal law to report all firearms thefts to the ATF, but there is no such requirement for package delivery companies. Some carriers report gun thefts voluntarily, but the ATF declined to provide a breakdown on losses reported by each company. "Theft from interstate shipments has always been a problem because there are such large numbers of guns being sent," said Jeffrey R. Roehm, an ATF spokesman in Washington. Roehm said UPS "has been overwhelmingly cooperative" with investigators and has assisted in numerous undercover operations. But he added that it can be difficult to sniff out gun thieves in the company's sprawling shipping network. In general, firearms can be shipped only to licensed dealers, manufacturers and wholesalers. To deter thefts, federal law dictates that packages containing guns must be shipped in plain wrappers that bear no indication of their contents. About 80% of the guns shipped in the United States move through UPS. The U.S. Postal Service is legally barred from shipping handguns through the mail, although it can deliver shotguns and rifles for licensed dealers. UPS spokesman Bob Godlewski said "several hundred" guns are stolen from the Atlanta-based company each year, although he declined to be specific. Many of the thefts in the UPS system, big and small, have proved to be inside jobs plotted by employees. In August, a UPS employee from Charles County was indicted on federal charges of possessing a stolen handgun and crack cocaine after he was shot during an altercation with two ATF agents who were trying to interview him in a firearms trafficking case. Federal authorities say the man, Anthony Gray, 20, of Waldorf, and another UPS worker stole three guns from the company's Waldorf distribution center in July. In 1992, a UPS driver from Alexandria was charged with stealing more than 850 handguns from his route and selling them to finance his crack-cocaine business. Many of the firearms were shipped via UPS by Interarms Inc., of Alexandria, one of the world's largest gun dealerships. The driver, Bernard G. Fuller, was sentenced to 12 years in prison without parole. In October, after the thefts from its Landover distribution center, UPS changed its rules and now requires all handguns to be sent by next-day-air service, the form of delivery also required by Federal Express Corp. and Airborne Freight Corp. That method allows packages to be tracked more closely and reduces the time they are sitting around, making them less vulnerable to thieves, according to UPS officials. Rifles and shotguns, however, can still be sent by standard ground delivery, which is cheaper. But some gun dealers criticized UPS, saying the company has forced them to pay more to have guns delivered overnight but has done little else to improve security. "They're punishing us for their incompetence," said Sanford Abrams, owner of Valley Guns in Towson and vice president of the Maryland Licensed Firearms Dealers Association. "We're livid that we have to pay for UPS's inefficiency and lack of security. They should secure their facilities and check the backgrounds of their employees to make sure they aren't hiring criminals." Godlewski, the UPS spokesman, said the change was made "to minimize the risk, even though it might be more expensive for the consumer. "In the end, it's this game of trying to keep guns out of the bad guys' hands and limiting the number of people who have access to them." He said he did not know how many guns have been stolen since the policy went into effect, but he acknowledged that the new system is not foolproof. "If somebody really wants to get in there, they'll get in there," he said. Indeed, ATF agents and local authorities are still looking for the culprit who stole six handguns in late October from a UPS distribution center in Ventura, Calif. The weapons, which were sent in accordance with UPS's new rules, were addressed to a gun dealership called Shooters Paradise. George Rice, the owner, said that over the past two years, 70 guns being shipped to his two stores through UPS have not been delivered. He criticized the company's security division as slow and lackadaisical. "The people they have checking [the problem], I don't think they could catch anybody if they did it right in front of them," he said. "They would never follow through. Every time I contacted them, it was like, 'Oh, it's no big deal.' It's asinine. Everybody knows the guns are all going right to the streets, to the gangs." U.S. Attorney Lynne A. Battaglia said the UPS case in Landover was the [ Continued In Next Message... ] - - ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 27 Dec 1999 22:25:51 -0700 From: "larry larsen" Subject: CCW instructors I read in the paper how the insturctors in "Northern" Utah have come up with some standards for the teaching of the CCW. I live in So Utah, and have never been approached by any of these fellow instructors. So to all of you who care, and also those of you who don't, I give this response. It is my opinion that anyone who wants a CCW should have it. But the state requires that a form of insturction be taken. So in conformance with that there are certian things that are taught. Adding to these requirements is a mistake, whether or not some feel it is for the public good. We should be looking for ways to remove requirements not add to them. The constitution does not state that only people who can hit a certain target at a certain distance have the right to defend themselves. That is STUPID. I don't say that it is ok not to be able to hit what you aim at. But who is to say what is approiate and what is not. I know for a fact that I can outshoot 99% of all the instructors in the state, so should my shooting level be the gauge? Or should we pick someone elses with a lower skill level? If we do, and the permit carrier takes a shot and misses, and hits granny by mistake, should we hold whoever said it was ok to make the standard lower than what I can shoot responsible? I am saying my support for change goes to those who lesson the requirement and come closer to what the constitution is saying, not to a group of instructors who want to be rule makers and dictators. Larry Larsen http://larsenfamily.com/cc/ - - ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 03 Jan 2000 16:53:13 -0700 From: "David Sagers" Subject: Fwd: Can you imagine? Received: from THIOKOL.COM (gw2zz.thiokol.com [209.37.209.131]) by icarus.ci.west-valley.ut.us; Mon, 03 Jan 2000 09:22:27 -0700 Received: from UTAH-Message_Server by THIOKOL.COM with Novell_GroupWise; Mon, 03 Jan 2000 09:24:14 -0700 Message-Id: X-Mailer: Novell GroupWise 5.2 Date: Mon, 03 Jan 2000 09:23:48 -0700 From: "Neil W. Sagers" To: Dsagers@ci.west-valley.ut.us, crsharp@uop.com Subject: Can you imagine? Can you imagine working at the following Company? It has a little over 500 employees with the following statistics: *29 have been accused of spousal abuse *7 have been arrested for fraud *19 have been accused of writing bad checks *117 have bankrupted at least two businesses *3 have been arrested for assault *71 cannot get a credit card due to bad credit *14 have been arrested on drug-related charges *8 have been arrested for shoplifting * 21 are current defendants in lawsuits *In 1998 alone, 84 were stopped for drunk driving Can you guess which organization this is? Give up? It's the 535 members of your United States Congress. The same group that perpetually cranks out hundreds upon hundreds of new laws designed to keep the rest of us in line. - - ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 6 Jan 2000 11:14:57 -0700 From: charles hardy Subject: Fw: Davis County--Meeting with State Senator Terry Spencer--HIGH PRIORITY! Sounds like they could use a large turnout to politely but firmly let the good Senator know he needs to support our right to own and carry guns. NOTE that an RSVP to the email below is requested of those planning to attend. ================================================================== Charles C. Hardy - --------- Forwarded message ---------- From: "David A. Hansen" Notice of Meeting with State Senator Terry Spencer, who represents much of Davis County. This meeting will be on January 14 at 7:30 p.m. at the home of Dave Farrell (address below). We need all the attendance at this meeting we can get in order to impress upon Terry Spencer the importance of his standing up for the Second Amendment and not continuing his compromises of late. Spencer holds a key position on the Senate Judiciary Committee, which tends to see most of the Second Amendment legislation that comes before the legislature. Lately Spencer has been promoting a bill that would make it illegal for citizens to own firearms for a period of three years if they commit certain misdemeanors. We need to make it clear to Spencer that if there are misdemeanors so serious as to require the revocation of Second Amendment rights that these misdemeanors ought rather to be re-classified as felonies in order to keep from sliding down the slippery slope that could eventually make all misdemeanors grounds for loss of Second Amendment rights for umteen number of years. Spencer claims that the majority of people in Davis County support this legislation. Let's make it clear to him that just because a majority supports it, it does not make it right to go against the State Constitution which stipulates that only felons can have firearm privileges revoked. Spencer has also argued that even though this law goes against the State Constitution, certain court cases have set the precedent that allow these infringements. Spencer seems to be on the edge of deciding whether to support Second Amendment issues. We need to firmly--but politely--encourage him to stand up for what is Constitutionally correct. Please come and bring your pro-Second Amendment friends. I would like to get a count of the number who will be attending and how many you are bringing with you. Please email me this information when you know. (dahansen@uswest.net) Dave Farrell's home is at 180 E. Shepard Lane, Kaysville. Farrell's home is actually west of I-15. To get to his home, from highway 89, go west on Shepard Lane, the road by Smiths and Kmart in Farmington. Continue to go west past the Country Club, cross over the freeway and his house is about the seventh house (pink and grey colored) on the left, after you cross the bridge over the interstate.. I look forward to seeing all of you there. Dave - - ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 10 Jan 2000 00:24:49 EST From: Shbergeson@cs.com Subject: FW: 2nd Amend. Action Alert Utah Shooting Sports Council E-mail Action Alert A coalition made up of the Utah Parent Teacher Association (PTA), the Utah Education Association (teachers union), some non- LDS church leaders, and assorted anti-gun extremist is trying to get an anti-gun initiative on the November 2000 general election ballot. This deceptively titled "Safe to Learn, Safe to Worship Act" will prohibit licensed concealed carry permit holders from carrying firearms in houses of worship, universities, schools, and private homes. The coalition is busy collecting the thousands of signatures needed to get it on the ballot. If enough signatures are obtained in the required number of counties by June 1st, it will appear on the November 2000 ballot for passage or defeat by Utah voters. The news media spin is that the initiative is needed to keep guns out of schools. They have created the impression that this will stop juveniles, gang members or psychos. This is false. This initiative is not aimed as Harris and Klebold type juvenile gunmen, or serial rapists, or murderers, or carjackers, or kidnappers. This is aimed only at the 30,000 Utahns with concealed carry permits who have been cleared by the Department of Public Safety and passed an FBI background check. The above mentioned bad guys are already banned from having guns in schools, churches, or anywhere else by existing laws, but you won't hear that from the media. Most of the people gathering supporting this initiative have NOT even read the complete initiative, and do not understand what it actually requires. Every gun owner needs to fight this proposal. This is NOT just about concealed carry permit holders. This is a major assault on the ability of law abiding citizens to possess guns for self defense. It is also part of a larger campaign to relentlessly enact restrictions on the legal manufacture, sale, transfer, ownership, possession, or use of any type of gun by any person. This includes deer rifles and trap or skeet shotguns, ugly assault rifles and beautiful antique flintlocks, cheap surplus guns and expensive custom guns, small-easily concealed guns and guns too big to hide. They hate all guns and gun owners and are targeting one segment at a time. The anti gun fanatics are trying to nibble away at any edge they can find. This fight is important to ALL gun owners, not just the 30,000 Utahns with Concealed Carry Permits. YOU and YOUR guns may be next on their list! The language on this bill is complicated and technical. Few people will bother to read it. The full text of this bill is available from the Utah Lieutenant Governor's Office at http://governor.state.ut.us/lt_gover/guninitiative.htm. You need to review this and tell everyone you know to REFUSE TO SIGN THE PEITITIONS to put the initiative on next year's ballot. You especially need to talk with parents of school age children and others who attend PTA meetings and encourage everyone to speak out against this initiative in the PTA meeting. Ten points to keep in mind when discussing the initiative: (1) There has never been a shooting in a school caused by a concealed carry permit holder anywhere in Utah or the nation. (2) Two of the recent school shootings were stopped by private citizens with guns. The shooting in Pearl, Mississippi, was stopped when the assistant principal retrieved his gun from his car and confronted the shooter. No shots were fired. The shooting at the Edinboro, Pennsylvania, school dance was stopped when a citizen leveled a shotgun at the attacker and told him to stop. Again no shots were fired. These are details that the media tries to hide. (3) Research by Professor John Lott of Yale University (formerly with the University of Chicago) reveals that most mass public shootings take place in gun free zones. Places were the attackers know they will not meet any armed resistance. (4) Even radio's strongest supporter of children and safety, Dr. Laura Schlessinger, has decided that allowing law abiding citizens with permits to carry concealed weapons is a good idea, including in schools and churches. You can read Dr. Laura's column in the October 10, 1999 Deseret News. (5) This initiative defines a public or private pre-school or child care facility as a school. This means if you home school or do any day care in you home you could be barred from having guns in you home. (6) If you take night classes at any school in the state, and have to walk out to a dimly lit parking lot at night you will be unable to protect yourself. (7) This will ban hunter safety classes, gunsmithing courses, JROTC owned guns, competitive shooting sports, and even guns in museums on school or church property. (8) This initiative would require a concealed carry permit holder or any one legally in possession of a gun to get special permission to enter a private residence with a firearm, making their carrying of a gun common knowledge. They will become a more likely target for a criminal seeking a gun.. Convicted rapists, child molesters, murderers, drug dealers, burglars, or even people like Ted Bundy or Jeffrey Dahmer do not need to ask special permission to enter a private residence. But law abiding citizens will have to ask first! (9) Churches and Houses of worship already have the power to keep concealed carry permit holders off their property. Mere posting of a sign or verbal notification to permit holders is sufficient to forbid them from entering when armed. (10) Some religious leaders reportedly support the ban on guns in churches on theological grounds, claiming that guns have no place in sanctuaries or places of worship. If they don't want guns on their property they ALREADY have the means to ban them. The theological objection to guns is hypocritical, as these leaders are happy to make exceptions for on and off duty police officers. Imposing theological positions by passing laws is a clear violation of the separation between church and state. Religious groups should be allowed to worship as they see fit, free from government imposed rules of any sort. Will these same churches support a ban on communion wine because it is offensive to the theology of some other churches? - - ------------------------------ End of utah-firearms-digest V2 #172 ***********************************