From: owner-utah-firearms-digest@lists.xmission.com (utah-firearms-digest) To: utah-firearms-digest@lists.xmission.com Subject: utah-firearms-digest V2 #212 Reply-To: utah-firearms-digest Sender: owner-utah-firearms-digest@lists.xmission.com Errors-To: owner-utah-firearms-digest@lists.xmission.com Precedence: bulk utah-firearms-digest Wednesday, May 30 2001 Volume 02 : Number 212 ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Date: Fri, 18 May 2001 13:20:27 -0400 (EDT) From: charles hardy Subject: FW: GOUtah! Alert #85 The latest from GOUtah... Please note the divergence of some elected officials' words and actions noted in the post. It is this kind of divergence we need to remember at election time. As importantly, we need to make sure our elected officials are reminded that we do and will remember their actions and ignore their words come next election. ==================== GOUtah! Gun Owners of Utah Utah's Uncompromising, Independent Gun Rights Network. No Compromise. No Retreat. No Surrender. Not Now. Not Ever. GOUtah! Website: http://www.goutah.org Free Subscription to GOUtah! e-mail Alerts: To subscribe, send a blank e-mail message to: goutah-subscribe@yahoogroups.com To unsubscribe, send a blank e-mail message to: goutah-unsubscribe@yahoogroups.com To receive GOUtah! Alerts free of charge via fax, send a fax to: (801) 944-9937 (Note: Fax Alerts are sometimes transmitted late at night, so you' ll need a fax system that doesn't make your home telephone ring) ___________________________ GOUtah! Alert #85 - 18 May 2001 Today's Maxim of Liberty: "If someone has a gun and is trying to kill you, it would be reasonable to shoot back with your own gun. Not at the head, where a fatal wound might result. But at some other body part, such as a leg." - -- The Dalai Lama, speaking at the "Educating Heart Summit" in Portland, Oregon, when asked by a girl how to react when a shooter takes aim at a classmate. (May 15, 2001, The Seattle Times) NRA TO HOLD 2007 ANNUAL MEETINGS IN UTAH The National Rifle Association announced it will hold their 2007 Annual Meeting in Salt Lake City, Utah. Salt Lake City, also site of the 1992 NRA Meetings, was selected based on location, suitable convention and exhibit facilities and state firearms laws. The annual event often draws 40,000 to 50,000 NRA members to the exhibit and member activities. NRA Annual Meetings are currently scheduled for Kansas City, Missouri in 2001, Reno, Nevada in 2002, Orlando, Florida in 2003, Pittsburgh in 2004, Houston in 2005 and Milwaukee in 2006. McCAIN AND LIEBERMAN INTRODUCE JOINT GUN CONTROL BILL IN U.S. SENATE Gun control advocates got a big boost recently when Sen. John McCain (R-Ariz.) joined with notoriously anti-gun Sen. Joe Lieberman (D-Conn.) to introduce a bill which would require background checks on all private party firearm transfers at gun shows where 75 r more guns are offered for sale. McCain's sudden defection for the ranks of firearms supporters seems to now be complete, with this legislation coming in the wake of his lending his name to the newest national anti-gun group, "Americans for Gun Safety" earlier this year. McCain's name is also being widely circulated as a possible presidential or vice presidential candidate on the Democratic ticket in 2004. Anti-gun groups hailed the new proposal, made all the more dangerous as it may be seen as a more moderate approach to the gun show background check issue, and has bi-partisan sponsorship. GOUtah! opposes any requirement for background checks on private party transfers (or any other lawful transfers for that matter) and encourages you to contact Utah's U.S. Senators Orrin Hatch and Robert Bennett to register your opposition to the McCain-Lieberman bill. FEDERAL SURVEY INDICATES WHERE CRIMINALS GET - AND DON'T GET - THEIR GUNS In the wake of continued calls for legislation to close the non-existent 'loophole' on private party transfers at gun shows, we think we should look into just where these criminals are getting their guns. We could ask some politicians, journalists, Mike Leavitt, Sarah Brady or some poor misinformed soccer mom, but instead we'll ask the people who would really know the answers to this question: violent career criminals currently serving time in Federal prisons for firearms crimes. According to a 1997 study titled "Federal Firearms Offenders 1992-1998," by John Scalia, commissioned and funded by the United States Department of Justice, Bureau of Justice Statistics, the sources of these criminal's guns were identified as follows: 35.4% -- Family Member of Friend 15% -- Drug Dealer 15% -- Retail Store 9.1% -- Theft or Burglary 8.7% -- Black Market 4.2% -- Pawn Shop 3.4% -- Borrowed or Were Given a Gun 1.7% -- Flea Market 1.7% -- GUN SHOWS!!! 5.9% -- All Other Sources Combined Yep, recent Federal Justice Department research shows that something like one violent Federal criminal in every 60 got his or her weapon from a gun show. That's why it's so important for those Federal and State Government busybodies to plug this loophole to prevent of the torrent of guns flowing from gun shows into the hands of violent criminals. GOUTAH!'S GUN RIGHTS & WRONGS QUOTEWATCH Insightful reader feedback on a recent GOUtah! Alert... From: baldej Sent: Thursday, May 17, 2001 1:27 PM Subject: i hope u shoot yourself "i hope whilst cleaning your shotgun that it blows up in your dumb american face!!!!!!!!!! all the best edd (Thanks for your very kind words, 'edd.' We at GOUtah! ALWAYS unload our shotguns before cleaning them, per standard firearms safety practices, but it never hurts to get a thoughtful and gentle gun safety reminder from compassionate and well-informed folks like yourself.) "I'm pleased that the NRA is satisfied with Utah's gun laws. We still have a few concerns though. For instance we could loosen up our concealed weapons permits. Look at Vermont, where there are no restrictions." - -- Former Speaker of the House Rob Bishop (R-Brigham City), the current paid USSC lobbyist, as quoted in the Salt Lake Tribune, 17 May 2001 (GOUtah!'s political irony note: Rob Bishop of USSC, along with NRA lobbyist Brian Judy was one of the prime movers of the hostile amendment attached to HB 376 which limited the term of validity of an out of state CCW permit to only 60 days.) "It's a great compliment to our state. The NRA convention ranks right up there with the Olympics." - -- Sen. Mike Waddoups (R-Taylorsville) as quoted in the Salt Lake Tribune, 17 May 2001. (GOUtah!'s political irony note: Sen. Mike Waddoups recently carried state legislation prohibiting Utah's nearly 40,000 responsible and peaceable CCW holders from entering any 2002 Olympic venue while in otherwise lawful possession of a firearm or other potential weapon.) (If you have a gun-rights quote you'd like to share, send it to us at GOUtah! along with its verifiable original source.) That concludes the GOUtah! Alert #85-18 May 2001. Copyright 2001 by GOUtah! All rights reserved. We hope this information will be of assistance to you in defending your firearms rights. Remember that getting this information is meaningless unless YOU ACT ON IT TODAY. If you just read it and dump it in the trash, your gun rights, and the gun rights of future generations go in the trash with it. Get involved, get active and get vocal! - - ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 18 May 2001 17:07:39 -0600 From: Scott Bergeson Subject: The End of the Million Moms By Tanya Metaksa http://frontpagemag.com/columnists/metaksa/2001/metaksa05-16-01.htm - - ------------------------------ Date: Sun, 20 May 2001 12:21:10 -0600 From: charles hardy Subject: Fw: LOTT TO DEBATE EHRLICH ON REASON.COM! (Starting THIS Monday) - ---------------- Charles Hardy - --------- Forwarded message ---------- From: "Nancy" LOTT TO DEBATE EHRLICH ON REASON.COM! Do More Guns Mean Less Crime? Mike Alissi Reason Online malissi@r... John Lott and Robert Ehrlich square off next week in a Reason Online debate! Do "right-to-carry" laws lead to a reduction in violent crime as Yale research scholar, John R. Lott, argued in his 1998 book, More Guns, Less Crime? Robert Ehrlich, a professor of physics at George Mason University and author of Nine Crazy Ideas in Science: A Few May Even Be True, disagrees with Lott's interpretation of the data. He says concealed carry laws have probably had no effect on violent crime, one way or the other. Who's right? Decide for yourself next week as Lott and Ehrlich shoot it out in a Reason Online debate! Here's the schedule: Round 1 Monday, May 21: Robert Ehrlich makes his case Tuesday, May 22: John Lott responds Round 2 Wednesday, May 23: Ehrlich replies Thursday, May 24: Lott replies Each dispatch will be posted by 9:00 A.M. Eastern. Don't miss it! http://www.reason.com When women are disarmed, a rapist will never hear - Stop or I'll shoot! ________________________________________________________________ GET INTERNET ACCESS FROM JUNO! Juno offers FREE or PREMIUM Internet access for less! Join Juno today! For your FREE software, visit: http://dl.www.juno.com/get/tagj. - - ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 21 May 2001 14:41:22 -0400 (EDT) From: charles hardy Subject: Biathletes need sponsors From today's DesNews: Biathletes feeling like unwanted stepchild=20 By Donna Kemp Spangler Deseret News staff writer With the 2002 Winter Games less than a year away, spon= sors are clamoring to have their corporate identity coupled with figure ska= ting and downhill skiing and snowboarding. But sponsors haven't exactly raced to the door of the = U.S. Biathlon Association, the national governing body for the sport that c= ombines cross-country skiing with rifle shooting. The USBA is strugg= ling financially and wondering publicly if the sport =97 one of the most po= pular winter sports elsewhere in the world =97 has any future in this cou= ntry. "We are the invisible Olympic sport," said Max Cobb, w= inter program director for the USBA. Cobb said it is no help that American biathletes have = never medaled in Olympic competition, and the athletes by and large compete= out of the television spotlight. The lack of corporate sponsors has left the USBA with = a $120,000 deficit, out of an annual budget of only $750,000. That money go= es to support about 10 national team members and 15 junior team me= mbers, as well as training camps and travel to competitions, mostly in Euro= pe. The USBA does have some longtime sponsors, including L= .L. Bean and Federal Ammunition. But biathlon officials had expected more corporate sponsors, given that the Games will be held in the= United States where they will garner a wealth of media publicity. But the = USBA has been faced with widespread disinterest from larger and middl= e-size companies. Now they are looking for anyone at all to step forward= with financial help, no matter how small. How bad has it been? They are still ecstatic over a $5,000 check that one f= an wrote to them following the recent World Cup competition at Soldier Holl= ow, the Olympic venue for cross-country skiing and biathlon, located= near Midway. "What we are looking for is the dribs and drabs," said= Jerry Kokesh, development director for the USBA. The problem may be rooted in the fact the USBA does no= t have a budget to aggressively market the sport to would-be sponsors. Its = budget is so small that almost every dime goes to helping the athletes tr= ain and get to competitions. The budget shortfall could force cutbacks in the junio= r programs that have been years in the making. In fact, hopes for a U.S. me= dal in biathlon rest not so much with the current national team and the 2002= Games as they do with the junior team and Olympic Games in 2006 and beyond= . "It is a very frustrating period for us," said S= teve Sands, executive director of USBA. "We've worked exceedingly hard to b= uild a good program. We want to keep the momentum going." Officials insist the shortfall will not impact the tea= m's preparations for the Winter Games. Sands said the USBA recognizes the W= inter Games are a golden opportunity for the USBA to expose Americans to= the sport, and that they might not have a chance like this until the Olymp= ics return to American soil, probably decades in the future. "The sad thing is, we are invisible," Sands said, "but= you get anyone to come out and watch an event and they say it's a great sp= ort." - - ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 21 May 2001 15:04:51 -0400 (EDT) From: charles hardy Subject: Shooting NEAR an out of State church I try not to get sucked into conspiracy therories, but all the recent cover= age about guns and churches is about to convince me to quite fighting and j= ust accept those theories. Needless to say, none of those reports bother t= o even ask--much less try to answer--the question of "what if someone had h= ad a gun and been able to put up real resistance." But this one takes the cake. A shooting NEAR a church in Tennesee is now n= ewsworthy for a local paper in Utah?!?!? From today's DesNews. Charles - ------------- Worshippers in church; gunbattle in parking lot=20 MURFREESBORO, Tenn. (AP) =97 A gunbattle broke out in = a parking lot outside a church sanctuary as members worshipped inside. No o= ne was hurt. Police said shots were exchanged between men in two ca= rs outside Walter Hill Baptist Church on Sunday over a drug deal gone wrong= . None of the suspects is affiliated with the church. Rev. Murray Mathis was getting ready to begin his chil= dren's sermon when it happened. "I was kind of leaned over with the kids and I heard t= he thing go pow pow! Pow pow!" he told WSMV-TV of Nashville. One bullet hit the sanctuary's outer wall. - - ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 22 May 2001 13:30:57 -0600 From: "David Sagers" Subject: Attempted Murder at Brickyard Plaza Hi Charles This morning on 570 KNRS radio the news reported that there was an = attempted murder at Brickyard Plaza. The report said something to the = effect that an argument broke out between a guy walking thru the parking = lot and a another guy in a parked car. The driver got out of the car and fired a shot at the pedestrian. The = report went on to say that several shop owners and other bystanders held = the shooter until police arrived. Hummm.... The shooter is armed and some bystanders held him until the = police arrive? Wonder how many of those shop owners and bystanders were = also armed with a CCP? I called 570 KNRS, 908-1300, and asked this same question, except the part = about the CCP. The news lady who wrote the story admitted that she didn't = ask, but would follow up and try to report the information this afternoon. Maybe they need some more polite calls asking for the complete story. - - ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 24 May 2001 13:10:59 -0400 (EDT) From: charles hardy Subject: FWD: [LPUtah] FW: GUN SHOW BILL & PTA MATTERS The following is from the USSC. There is some good info here, but please note that they *STILL* consider Hatch to be "pro-gun." I would argue that he *may* be less anti-gun than some democrats, but even then you have to consider whether a wolf in sheep's clothing is really better than a known and visible enemy. Also, rather than just "get[ing] involved to help guide the PTA activities in your kids' schools" as the USSC urges, parents may want to seriously consider forming brand new, completely locally controlled "parent teacher organizations" so that no dues money goes to the nation PTA. Just my opinion. Charles - ---------- From: Utah Shooting Sports Council GUN SHOW BILL & PTA MATTERS- These two issues deserve your careful scrutiny, and action. 1. The analysis of the "McCain-Lieberman" bill was not prepared by USSC, but clearly points out the dangers of this deceptive and totally unacceptable attack on law abiding gun owners. If the Senator from Vermont switches to the Democratic party, Republicans will lose all Committee chairmanships. Pro-gun Judiciary Committee Chairman Orrin Hatch will be replaced by an anti-gun Democrat. Passage of new gun control schemes, specifically gun show bans becomes highly likely. It is also questionable if President Bush will veto "moderate" gun control. It is especially important to ensure everyone understands exactly how extreme this bill really is. 2. A story in the Salt Lake Tribune highlights the growing unrest with the National Parent Teachers Association (PTA). You can help ensure your kids get a good education, free from the anti-gun agenda of an outside agency, if you are involved in your children's school activities. Please get involved to help guide the PTA activities in your kids' schools. GUN-SHOW BILL IS NOT WHAT THEY SAY Re: S. 890, The McCain-Lieberman Bill: "Gun Show Loophole Closing and Gun Law Enforcement Act of 2001." Mass media publicity on the newly proposed gun-show bill is grossly inaccurate. The bill has almost nothing to do with what you've probably heard so far. The so-called "gun-show loophole" headlines are a minor detail and basically obscure what the bill really does. I've just finished studying the eight pages of legalese. Here is it what it calls for: 1.Unprecedented federal control over gun shows nationwide - perfectly legal gun shows become strictly outlawed without prior federal approval, licensing and registration of each show; 2. Centralized federal licensing and registration of every gun-show promoter in the nation. 3. Centralized federal registration of every vendor - including non-gun vendors -- at any gun show in the country. In order for me to sell my BOOKS at a gun show I'll have to pre-register and prove who I am, or face arrest; a private individual looking to sell a single gun would be treated as a vendor under this law and must be registered even if the gun isn't sold; 4. Centralized federal registration of EVERY PERSON who attends a gun show in America, whether or not they make purchases of anything at all -- you won't be allowed in without registering; 5. Centralized collection of "any other information" on gun-show attendees, as determined solely by the Secretary of the Treasury; 6. Imprisonment for attending a gun show and failing to give up any information required by regulations of the Secretary of the Treasury; 7. Imprisonment of any gun-show promoter who fails to register a single vendor; 8. Imprisonment of gun-show promoters who cannot prove they notified every person attending a gun show of the new rules, and obtained from attendees any information the Secretary of the Treasury mandates by regulation; 9. Centralized collection of "any other information" the Secretary of the Treasury decides, by regulation, is necessary on vendors, attendees, and the gun show itself; 10. Submission by gun-show promoters of vendor registration logs a) 30 days before any gun show, and b) additional submission of updated vendor registration logs 72 hours before any gun show, and c) additional submission of vendor registration logs within five days of the close of any gun show, under penalty of arrest and imprisonment for non-compliance; 11. Identification of vendors only by use of federally approved photo ID that may include use of a social security number, electronically encoded data, or "biometric identifiers" such as fingerprint, voice print, retina scan, iris scan, or similar (as defined under 18 USC 1028(d)(2)); 12. Creation of a new license (in addition to a gun-show-promoter license), similar to FFLs, for individuals who want access to the NICS national background check system for facilitating gun-show sales for private citizens; 13. Regulations to be issued by the Secretary of the Treasury on the procedures, data collections, methods and implementation of the entire process to federally control gun shows, in addition to the requirements made by the proposed statute; such regulations will not be known, drafted or even suggested, until after the McCain-Lieberman law is enacted; 14. The proposed bill also puts pressure on state governments to make at least 95% of their law enforcement records for the past 30 years openly available to the federal government; and - -- makes unlimited funds available for the states to comply with these federal goals; - -- requires annual federal review of states' compliance; - -- increases penalties (up to ten years imprisonment) for record-keeping violations; - -- grants states permission to make even more restrictive requirements without being out of compliance with these new federal laws (and by implication, puts states that resist these rules in federal trouble); - -- provides hundreds of millions of taxpayer dollars for more law enforcement under numerous programs including project Exile and others; - -- hires 200 more Federal BATF Agents; - -- provides $10 million to the National Institute for Justice to give out for research on "technologies that limit the use of a gun to the owner"; and - -- provides for annual reports (in great detail) by the Attorney General to Congress on whether the Brady law is working; 15. Enlargement of the federal bureaucracy and appropriation from taxpayers of "such funds as are necessary" to license, register and monitor an estimated ten million non-criminals who attend the thousands of gun shows held annually in America; and 16. Oh yes, I almost forgot about the so-called "loophole" part the media is so excited about -- the McCain-Lieberman bill will make an honest private citizen a criminal for transferring a gun to another honest private citizen, without first registering the transfer with, and getting permission from, the federal government (represented by the FBI at its data complex in Clarksburg, West Virginia). Transfer or possession of a firearm to or by a criminal (a "federally prohibited possessor") is completely unaffected by the McCain-Lieberman "loophole" bill, so I guess it's accurate to characterize it as a loophole bill. To sum up: Perfectly legal gun sales -- with no victims or criminal activity of any kind -- are outlawed at gun shows by the McCain-Lieberman bill, unless the sale is pre-registered with the federal government; real crimes are totally unaffected; and your friends in the federal government take over full control of gun shows - which have been previously free of government infringement for more than 200 years. Please write your local news outlet and politely request a correction. Permission to circulate or use any or all of this report is granted, provided my credit and contact information is included. Alan Korwin, Author, Gun Laws of America Bloomfield Press, 12629 N. Tatum #440, Phoenix, AZ 85032 (602)996-4020 alan@gunlaws.com http://www.gunlaws.com "We publish the gun laws." CONCERNED ABOUT YOUR CHILDREN'S EDUCATION Story in SL Tribune- http://www.sltrib.com/05212001/utah/99173.htm The national Parent Teacher Association (PTA) has demonstrated a strong anti-gun bias. The Utah PTA is the leading agent in the ballot initiative to ban legal self defense in schools or churches. Along with these positions on gun issues, you may find many of their other positions on social issues at odds with your beliefs. Utah teachers are mostly fine, hard working people who sincerely care about educating our kids, but are subject to pressure from the PTA organization to teach material that is contrary to Utah values. We urge you to read the story in the May 21st Salt Lake Tribune http://www.sltrib.com/05212001/utah/99173.htm on a growing movement in Utah to sever ties with the national PTA and return control to local parents. We urge parents to consider the issue carefully and decide if they may want to become more involved in the local groups of parents and teachers work together for the benefit of their children. Utah Shooting Sports Council's free e-mail alert service: Help spread the word and protect your gun rights. Please forward this e-mail to anyone you think may be interested. If this alert was forwarded to you by someone other than USSC, or if your address has changed, you can sign up for alerts the Utah Shooting Sports web site at the following address: www.UtahShootingSports.org Visit our web-site at www.UtahShootingSports.org for the latest news and membership applications. Thanks for your time. Provided by the Utah Shooting Sports Council, Box 1975, Layton, UT 84041-6975 - - ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 24 May 2001 11:28:18 -0600 From: "Scott Bergeson" Subject: Re: FWD: [LPUtah] FW: GUN SHOW BILL & PTA MATTERS charles hardy wrote: >Note that the USSC *STILL* considers Hatch to be "pro-gun." >He *may* be mariginally better than some democrats, but even >that is arguable. Like a wolf in sheep's clothing, he passes >his gun control slower than Dems do, C-; "Leans Our Way: occasionally." according to http://www.gunowners.org/107srat.htm Fwiw, Bennett is rated D; "Leans Anti-Gun: usually against us." Scott - - ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 24 May 2001 17:53:57 -0400 (EDT) From: charles hardy Subject: FWD: Special MemDay Show on KTKK - ------Original Message------ From: JimDex Historian Clayton E. Cramer will thoroughly debunk Prof. Michael Bellesiles' "Arming America" on my Memorial Day show. Bellesiles seems to believe there were only three dozen or so guns in the colonies and these were cleverly passed about to make the British think we were armed to the teeth. He seems to think that most colonial and later Americans were either completely defenseless or took their guns to the grave because they rarely passed them in on their wills. He also significantly and deliberately misquotes a number historical documents to make his case for an almost gun-free early America. Not surprisingly, he has already won prestigious awards from liberal organizations. So take your cell phone with your portable radio to your picnic on Monday, tune in AM-630 and call in. Jim Dexter Host RADIO LIBERTY Mondays & Wednesdays 11:00 AM to 1:00 PM (Mountain) KTKK-AM 630 -- Salt Lake City "The Voice of Utah" Listen live, online at http://www.k-talk.com (Windows Media Player available on-site) - - ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 28 May 2001 14:43:06 -0600 From: "Scott Bergeson" Subject: Anti-gunners Pollster focuses on media's anti-gun bias - ---------- "A leading opinion pollster said Sunday she believes the national media's anti-gun bias, as reflected in much of the reporting about gun crimes and gun issues, stems from the fact that most reporters and anchors don't know much about guns." (05/21/01) http://newsmax.com/archives/articles/2001/5/21/95005.shtml Shot down - ---------- by Jacob Sullum Sullum reflects on recent anti-gun lawsuits that have been thrown out of court, specifically a recent Chicago case against gun manufacturers. (05/18/01) http://www.townhall.com/columnists/jacobsullum/js20010515.shtml [Turn images off if it doesn't load] - - ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 30 May 2001 17:09:40 -0400 (EDT) From: charles hardy Subject: FWD: Re: [wagc-ut] FWD: Attempted Murder at Brickyard Plaza - --385444145.991256980752.JavaMail.root@web395-wra.mail.com Content-Type: text/plain Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit The following information was sent to me by a someone who wishes to remain anonymous. I believe the info is credible. My thanks to him/her for passing along this info. charles - ------Original Message------ I was not there, but from what I understand from the officers that were was that the shooter and his brother were in their car. They got into a verbal argument with a kid they knew from a rival gang. The driver brandished his .22 handgun. The other kid was not impressed and a physical fight began. During the fight, the driver of the car fired at the rival gang member, hitting no one. All parties tried to run away on foot but were tackled and held down by employees and bystanders. I don't think that anyone with a CCP was there. - ----- Original Message ----- Hi Charles This morning on 570 KNRS radio the news reported that there was an attempted murder at Brickyard Plaza. The report said something to the effect that an argument broke out between a guy walking thru the parking lot and a another guy in a parked car. The driver got out of the car and fired a shot at the pedestrian. The report went on to say that several shop owners and other bystanders held the shooter until police arrived. Hummm.... The shooter is armed and some bystanders held him until the police arrive? Wonder how many of those shop owners and bystanders were also armed with a CCP? I called 570 KNRS, 908-1300, and asked this same question, except the part about the CCP. The news lady who wrote the story admitted that she didn't ask, but would follow up and try to report the information this afternoon. Maybe they need some more polite calls asking for the complete story. - --385444145.991256980752.JavaMail.root@web395-wra.mail.com Content-Type: text/html; name=Attachment1.html Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Content-Disposition: attachment; filename=Attachment1.html Content-ID: Attachment1.html
I was not there, but from what I understan= d from=20 the officers that were was that the shooter and his brother were in their= =20 car.  They got into a verbal argument with a kid they knew from a riva= l=20 gang.  The driver brandished his .22 handgun.  The other kid was = not=20 impressed and a physical fight began.  During the fight, the driver of= the=20 car fired at the rival gang member, hitting no one.  All parties tried= to=20 run away on foot but were tackled and held down by employees and=20 bystanders.  I don't think that anyone with a CCP was there.
----- Original Message -----
Fro= m:=20 charle= s=20 hardy
To: wagc-ut@yahoogroups.com
Sent: Tuesday, May 22, 2001 1:50 P= M
Subject: [wagc-ut] FWD: Attempted = Murder=20 at Brickyard Plaza


www.
3D"Yahoo! My Groups | wagc-ut Main Page=20
3D""=20

The following was sent to me by a personal acquantance.  I ha= ve no=20 details beyond this email, but I think his suggestion probably has=20 merit.  Or, if anyone has a firsthand knowledge, please let us=20 know.

Charles

------Original Message------
From: "David= =20 Sagers" <dsagers@ci.west-valley.ut.us= >
Sent:=20 May 22, 2001 7:30:57 PM GMT
Subject: Attempted Murder at Brickyard=20 Plaza


Hi Charles

This morning on 570 KNRS radio the new= s=20 reported that there was an attempted murder at Brickyard Plaza.  The= =20 report said something to the effect that an argument broke out between a = guy=20 walking thru the parking lot and a another guy in a parked car.

Th= e=20 driver got out of the car and fired a shot at the pedestrian.  The r= eport=20 went on to say that several shop owners and other bystanders held the sho= oter=20 until police arrived.

Hummm....  The shooter is armed and som= e=20 bystanders held him until the police arrive?  Wonder how many of tho= se=20 shop owners and bystanders were also armed with a CCP?

I called 57= 0=20 KNRS, 908-1300, and asked this same question, except the part about the= =20 CCP.  The news lady who wrote the story admitted that she didn't ask= , but=20 would follow up and try to report the information this afternoon.

= Maybe=20 they need some more polite calls asking for the complete=20 story.


-



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- --385444145.991256980752.JavaMail.root@web395-wra.mail.com-- - - ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 30 May 2001 18:16:25 -0400 (EDT) From: charles hardy Subject: Garage thefts Forgive me for an off-topic post, but this may be of interest to you if you have an electric garage door opener. I just visited with a friend of mine here in Sandy. He went home for lunch today and discovered his garage door up and his $500.00 Honda lawn mower missing. A neighborhood girl saw a "scary man," bald on top, tall, driving a red truck with a red shell drive up, put the door up, and load up the lawn mower. It seems the thief used some kind of transmitter to open the door. A police report has been filed, but obviously, trying to recover a lawn mower is tough. My friend has a 6 month old, Genie, screw drive door opener with the "Intellicode" rolling code remotes. Until now, I had assumed that such openers were highly resistant to being opened with a remote other than one the owner specifically programmed to open it. Obviously, such a theft takes only a moment and I know of no way to prevent it short of unplugging the electric opener and going back to manual key locks on the doors--an option most of us would loathe. But at least when you are going to be away for a protracted period of time (vacation, etc) you might want to consider unplugging or otherwise disabling the openers on your garage doors. Also bear in mind the possibility of such a theft if you think you hear your garage door going up when it really shouldn't do so. You might also want to consider how good the locks are between the gargage and your home and whether you use them as frequently as you should. You may also want to consider if various items currently stored in the garage would not be safer in an attic, basement, or locked tool shed. Just thinking out loud here. If anyone has any info or advice on increasing security of garages without sacrificing the convenience (and safety) of electric openers, I'd love to hear about it. Charles. - - ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 30 May 2001 22:15:23 -0700 From: "larry larsen" Subject: RE: Garage thefts Charles I thought of that one time and turned off the breaker to the garage door, and a few other things, like the freezer. We weren't gone that long, only a few days and things weren't' in bad shape. of course everyone is smarter than that. Larry - -----Original Message----- From: owner-utah-firearms@lists.xmission.com [mailto:owner-utah-firearms@lists.xmission.com]On Behalf Of charles hardy Sent: Wednesday, May 30, 2001 3:16 PM To: wagc-ut@egroups.com Cc: utah-firearms@xmission.com Subject: Garage thefts Forgive me for an off-topic post, but this may be of interest to you if you have an electric garage door opener. I just visited with a friend of mine here in Sandy. He went home for lunch today and discovered his garage door up and his $500.00 Honda lawn mower missing. A neighborhood girl saw a "scary man," bald on top, tall, driving a red truck with a red shell drive up, put the door up, and load up the lawn mower. It seems the thief used some kind of transmitter to open the door. A police report has been filed, but obviously, trying to recover a lawn mower is tough. My friend has a 6 month old, Genie, screw drive door opener with the "Intellicode" rolling code remotes. Until now, I had assumed that such openers were highly resistant to being opened with a remote other than one the owner specifically programmed to open it. Obviously, such a theft takes only a moment and I know of no way to prevent it short of unplugging the electric opener and going back to manual key locks on the doors--an option most of us would loathe. But at least when you are going to be away for a protracted period of time (vacation, etc) you might want to consider unplugging or otherwise disabling the openers on your garage doors. Also bear in mind the possibility of such a theft if you think you hear your garage door going up when it really shouldn't do so. You might also want to consider how good the locks are between the gargage and your home and whether you use them as frequently as you should. You may also want to consider if various items currently stored in the garage would not be safer in an attic, basement, or locked tool shed. Just thinking out loud here. If anyone has any info or advice on increasing security of garages without sacrificing the convenience (and safety) of electric openers, I'd love to hear about it. Charles. - - - - ------------------------------ End of utah-firearms-digest V2 #212 ***********************************