From: John Zorn List Sent: Wednesday, November 05, 1997 10:02 PM To: zorn-list-digest@xmission.com Subject: John Zorn List V2 #149 John Zorn List Wednesday, November 5 1997 Volume 02 : Number 149 ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Date: Thu, 6 Nov 1997 00:21:18 -0500 (EST) From: Christopher Hamilton Subject: Re: Zappa On Wed, 5 Nov 1997, Schwitterz wrote: > Discomfort from scatological lyrics and discomfort in music are two > different things. Sometimes. But I don't think I'd be discomforted if the scatological lyrics weren't contextualized by some musical substance. I'm merely annoyed when people just say scatological things to me. One last point in Zappa's defense (wait, I haven't been defending him, have I?), and then I'm outta this thread: He was capable of writing some drop dead gorgeous melodies. Chris Hamilton - - ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 6 Nov 1997 00:35:57 -0500 (EST) From: Christopher Hamilton Subject: Re: Going thru the motions, or invention? (some more hot air) On Thu, 6 Nov 1997, James Douglas Knox wrote: > On Wed, 5 Nov 1997 y9d62@ttacs1.ttu.edu wrote: > > > For the record, and my humble opinion, I think Zorn's legacy is going to > > be connected with the legacy of 20th century classical music, especially > > regarding concepts such as assimiliation of broad musical styles, and > > group interaction. Not to mention 'extremes' in the tradition of > > Stravinsky, Debussy, and John Coltrane. > > Yeah; I concur completely. If one of Zorn's legacies will be to > have championed some of the most creative musicians of his, and other, > generations, then he's also traced a loose native-US historical tradition > in parallel to the accepted classical canon. I mean; the auto-didactic > *heteroclist* American composers like Ives, Partch, Cage, Braxton, Coleman > (add your personal others according to taste). Personally, I think it's more likely that Zorn, like three of the eight composers mentioned above, will become a part of the jazz tradition than the classical tradition, for several reasons: 1. Some of his music is obviously jazz. 2. Much of his music involves a lot of improvisation. 3. He's American. And, most importantly, 4. He plays saxophone. (These are, of course, major reasons his records usually wind up in the jazz bins now.) Mind you, I think it's at least as likely that it won't be plausible to distinguish between those traditions in a hundred years. And I have very little faith in the ability of anyone to predict what will be seen as important about our time in the future. Chris Hamilton - - ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 5 Nov 1997 21:40:36 -0800 (PST) From: Ash Doyle Subject: Marc Ribot I would greatly appreciate it if anyone who knows could tell me what guitar equipment Marc Ribot is currently using. Thanks. _____________________________________________________________________ Sent by Yahoo! Mail - http://mail.yahoo.com - - ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 5 Nov 1997 21:46:08 -0800 From: "Schwitterz" Subject: Re: Zappa >On Wed, 5 Nov 1997, Schwitterz wrote: > >> Discomfort from scatological lyrics and discomfort in music are two >> different things. > >Sometimes. But I don't think I'd be discomforted if the scatological >lyrics weren't contextualized by some musical substance. I'm merely >annoyed when people just say scatological things to me. One last point in >Zappa's defense (wait, I haven't been defending him, have I?), and then >I'm outta this thread: He was capable of writing some drop dead gorgeous >melodies. > >Chris Hamilton Speaking of gorgeous melodies: A few years back I was on my way to work, and I turned on KCRW-FM's 'Morning Becomes Eclectic.' I was shocked to hear the mournful strains of WATERMELON IN EASTER HAY. KCRW never plays Zappa, so I instantly knew what it meant and proceeded to SOB all the way to work. Yes, dear Frank was gone. What a great way to find out, not through the words of some passionless newscaster, but through one of his most gorgeous melodies. I've heard God lets him sit on the throne up there with his pants down around his ankles. sZ - - ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 6 Nov 1997 00:46:00 -0500 (EST) From: Christopher Hamilton Subject: Re: Harras On Wed, 5 Nov 1997, Glenn Astarita wrote: > RE: Avant.....any comments on the "Harras" disk ? It's three topnotch improvisors playing very well together. It's not a lifechanging record, but it's very, very good. _Yankees_ is a useful point of reference as it's also a trio featuring Bailey and Zorn. The most obvious difference over the intervening 15 years is Zorn's sax playing, which has become more melodic, more boppish, more Ornette-influenced. His voice now is less obviously original, but I think he brings something unusual to this kind of improv in his willingness to draw on the jazz tradition. Speaking of _Yankees_, the liner notes to my copy are in Japanese, and I've always wondered if this is a gamepiece or simply a free date inspired by baseball. There seem to be some musical references to the game. Can anyone clue me in on this one? Chris Hamilton - - ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 5 Nov 1997 21:57:59 -0800 From: improv@peak.org (Dave Trenkel) Subject: Re: John Zorn List V2 #141 >On Wed, 5 Nov 1997 16:18:49 +0100 Nuno BARREIRO >writes: > >> - Zappa is the most outstanding exemple of heteroclism in conteporary >>music. >> It is incredible how the recordings from the sixties are >>avant-garde, even >> now. Saying that it's a "mediocre white guy playing tricked-up >>r'n'r" is >> just plain bullshit, in the sense that it doens't mean anything and >>that >> it shows complete ignorance of his music! So, Mr. James Douglas >>Knox, go >> listen to some Zappa and the Mothers!!! > > >You know I do have a lot of respect for Frank Zappa, but I tend to agree >with Mister Knox. It's not like I've never listened to a Zorn album >(Nani Nani, anyone?) and said "he's just some dude making noise!" I >mean, "Jazz from hell" was a mistake, admit it. > Really? Jazz from Hell is one of the relatively few Zappa records I like. >I think the assumption that anyone who "really gives Zappa a chance" is >instantly going to become your stereotypical rabid-Zappa-fan who laughs >incessantly at "joke" songs like "Why does it hurt when I pee", is just >plain foolish. > Zappa is one of those musicians, like the Grateful Dead, that you apparently can't have a reasoned attitude towards, you're supposed to hate him or be a rabid fan. I can respect Zappa as a guitarist and occaisionally as a composer. I like some of his records, Uncle Meat is an all-time favorite. And you have to give him some respect for the way he made his own space in the music industry. But I think his music was often condescending, mean-spirited, unfunny, and boring. ________________________________________________________ Dave Trenkel : improv@peak.org : www.peak.org/~improv/ "...there will come a day when you won't have to use gasoline. You'd simply take a cassette and put it in your car, let it run. You'd have to have the proper type of music. Like you take two sticks, put 'em together, make fire. You take some notes and rub 'em together - dum, dum, dum, dum - fire, cosmic fire." -Sun Ra ________________________________________________________ - - ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 5 Nov 1997 21:58:06 -0800 From: improv@peak.org (Dave Trenkel) Subject: Heterotaxis At 9:46 AM 11/5/97, Jeff Spirer wrote: >At 09:31 AM 11/5/97 -0800, Schwitterz wrote: >>>-----Original Message----- >>>From: Nuno BARREIRO >> >> >>>> - Zappa is the most outstanding exemple of heteroclism in conteporary >>>music. >> >>What does 'heteroclism' mean? > >I was wondering about this myself. So I looked in the dictionary (American >Heritage New College Edition) and failed to find the word. In an effort to >find something similar, in other words, the word that was intended, I found >this word: > >heterotaxis: Abnormal structural arrangement > >which I am sure would make a welcome addition to someone's post on this >mailing list. > Gee, doesn't it sound like this should be the name of Laswell's next Band/Label/Album/Whatever? On a related note, I've been listening to an advance copy of "Panthalassa", Laswell's remix of electric Miles. It's a terrific record. It sounds absolutely within Miles' original concept, only with much better sound than any of the original records. Michael Henderson's bass playing has never sounded clearer, and I think he is one of the unsung masters of the instrument. Given the minor firestorm that the announcement of this record caused on r.m.bluenote, I think it's pretty amusing that the result is so respectful. ________________________________________________________ Dave Trenkel : improv@peak.org : www.peak.org/~improv/ "...there will come a day when you won't have to use gasoline. You'd simply take a cassette and put it in your car, let it run. You'd have to have the proper type of music. Like you take two sticks, put 'em together, make fire. You take some notes and rub 'em together - dum, dum, dum, dum - fire, cosmic fire." -Sun Ra ________________________________________________________ - - ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 5 Nov 1997 21:58:16 -0800 From: improv@peak.org (Dave Trenkel) Subject: Re: Bailey + d'n'b >Does anyone have anything to say about the album _Guitar Drum and Bass_ by >Derek Bailey w/ DJ Ninj. It's on Avant I think. Anyhow i've been eyeing it >for a while and wondered if it was worth the thirty dollars (canadian >funds) that the record store wants for it. >Comments? > >thanks, >jesse > > >- The first cut is pretty amazing, but over the course of the record, the drum programming wears pretty thin. DJ Ninj has done some much better stuff. Bailey is, as always, Bailey, and sound great. ________________________________________________________ Dave Trenkel : improv@peak.org : www.peak.org/~improv/ "...there will come a day when you won't have to use gasoline. You'd simply take a cassette and put it in your car, let it run. You'd have to have the proper type of music. Like you take two sticks, put 'em together, make fire. You take some notes and rub 'em together - dum, dum, dum, dum - fire, cosmic fire." -Sun Ra ________________________________________________________ - - ------------------------------ End of John Zorn List V2 #149 *****************************