From: John Zorn Mailing List Digest Sent: Thursday, November 06, 1997 5:04 PM To: zorn-list-digest@xmission.com Subject: John Zorn Mailing List Digest V2 #153 John Zorn Mailing List Digest Thursday, November 6 1997 Volume 02 : Number 153 In this issue: Re: d'n'b and Gentle Giant expectations Re: d'n'b and Gentle Giant Re: Frank Frank Frank, What About Eno? Metal Machine Music Blessing . . . Re:Lussier and friends Re: Heterotaxis Re: Harras/Yankees/Lulu chorus Re: In defense of Gentle Giant Re:Bailey & d'n'b Re: Re: expectations ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Date: Thu, 6 Nov 1997 11:39:30 -0800 From: "Schwitterz" Subject: Re: d'n'b and Gentle Giant >about Gentle Giant: yeah they are great but who cares...i mean i love >them but these discussions about Zappa and Gentle Giant and stuff really >gets on my nerves...anyway i also love Zappa......... >but i guess everyone on this list loves a lot of music so we should stop >discussing what we like and what we dont like (shouldnt we???) > >BJOERN Yes. Let's start discussing music we have no reaction to. sZ > >- > > - - ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 6 Nov 1997 15:59:53 -0500 From: cdeupree@interagp.com (Caleb Deupree) Subject: expectations >>>>> "Chris" == Chris Barrett writes: Chris> someone else's argument for appreciating Zappa took too Chris> much into account his influences, his ideals and Chris> personality and his attempts at innovations and did not Chris> take enough into account his music itself. In other words, Chris> they argued that the bottom line is the music itself Chris> despite the pleas to emphasize everything else surrounding Chris> it. To a point, I agree, but there are also the cases where a piece of music is interesting because we know the identity of the artist. For example, would we all have the same reaction to, say, Redbird if it had been Zappa? or Pierre Boulez? Miles? an unknown band from shipped on cassette with only a photocopied insert? What if the piece of music in question was Leng T'che? We unavoidably bring a set of expectations to the music we like based on past experiences, and those expectations frame what we hear in the new music. Part of the enjoyment of Zorn is that he does confound expectations, but the expectation is derived from it being Zorn, so the zing goes both ways. The disappointment of a lot of pop music is based on the fact that the music sounds exactly what I expect. And Zorn is fulfilling another part of confounding expectations with his A&R work with Avant and Tzadik, where he presents artists with whom he doesn't actually play, artists which we probably would not have found or purchased if they hadn't had this association. I recently acquired Fujeida's plant music album, even after the new age characterization that it got on this list. Well, it's not your mother's new age music, for sure. Everything on it is in just intonation or some even more bizarre tuning, and this is initially very unsettling. It was not at all what I expected, but because I liked the first Fujeida and because he's on Tzadik (and because sometimes new age music isn't totally objectionable), I felt comfortable taking a chance with it. Chris> This strikes me as relevant to a recent thread that I Chris> believe surrounded the discussion of the Parachute box set. Chris> Someone in that discussion had mentioned that Zorn was less Chris> interested in how the music sounded than he was in how it Chris> was created. AS much as I love much of Zorn's work, I hate Chris> others, and it strikes me that this could be part of the Chris> reason why. There's nothing wrong with having a story to go with the music. This increases the enjoyment. I love the story of how Cynical Hysterie Hour was finally released, and every time I listen to it, some part of me thinks antagonistic thoughts about large multi-national blood-sucking corporations. The DMG catalog mentions that Joey Baron played bags of leaves on Absinthe -- makes me want to go listen to it again, because that album remains puzzling to me (and I love it for that). Frederic Rzewski's masterpiece The People United has an improvised section, which is sometimes present on recordings, sometimes not. If I know it's there, I recognize it as improvisation and listen to it one way, but if I don't know this, I listen to it differently, as if it is part of the composition. Et cetera. Caleb Deupree cdeupree@interagp.com Computers are useless. They can only give you answers. (Pablo Picasso) - - ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 06 Nov 1997 13:08:08 -0800 From: "Patrice L. Roussel" Subject: Re: d'n'b and Gentle Giant On Thu, 6 Nov 1997 16:31:17 +0100 (MEZ) BJOERN wrote: > > > > > anybody have any recommendations of good drums'n'bass recordings? > > > for the start there are some really good compilations like: > -"A journey into drum n bass" > -"Lost in space vol I-III" > > there is some real good stuff by Squarepusher (best CD: "Feed me weird > things"....a must have CD) > > > about Gentle Giant: yeah they are great but who cares...i mean i love > them but these discussions about Zappa and Gentle Giant and stuff really > gets on my nerves...anyway i also love Zappa......... > but i guess everyone on this list loves a lot of music so we should stop > discussing what we like and what we dont like (shouldnt we???) And what is left? Patrice. - - ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 6 Nov 1997 16:08:07 -0500 From: cdeupree@interagp.com (Caleb Deupree) Subject: Re: Frank Frank Frank, What About Eno? >>>>> "Schwitterz" == Schwitterz writes: Schwitterz> The answer to what is going on with Eno is answered in Schwitterz> today's LA Times interview with him. If there's Schwitterz> interest I'll post it. You can get there by going to www.latimes.com and searching for eno. Caleb Deupree cdeupree@interagp.com Computers are useless. They can only give you answers. (Pablo Picasso) - - ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 6 Nov 1997 16:23:53 -0500 From: "Zeke's Distribution Corp." Subject: Metal Machine Music Howdy! I've been lurking way too long, and after the flurry of postings about = Zappa, Gentle Giant, etc. I thought that I might be able to stir up a = little more dust, by asking what people think about Metal Machine Music = by Lou Reed. I first heard it about 15 years ago, and at that time thought it was = kooky and weird. Got around to listening to bits and pieces of it again = this past summer (is anybody out there who has heard the it all the way = through?), and it struck me just HOW avant guard it was, and if it had = been released in the 90's he might not have gotten out of his contract. = It suddenly "clicked" as to what Thurston Moore listened to while he was = a teenager. Just to make things clear. I'm talking avant guard for Pop/Rock 'n' = Roll/Western Hemisphere/Radio fodder music. I realize that this is not "on topic" at all, but the list has suddenly = gotten way more fun. I apologize to anybody who doesn't like it. Chris Hand zeke@zeke.com =00 - - ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 6 Nov 1997 15:34:36 -0600 (CST) From: Mike Shepherd Subject: Blessing . . . On Wed, 5 Nov 1997, Steve Smith wrote: > Additionally New Yorkers are blessed with so much to possibly do almost > every night of the year that many tend to take it all for granted and > will frequently see nothing instead. Please, heed Mr. Smith's words. Coming from a guy who has had to drive from Nashville to Knoxville (a good 3 hours) to see any good jazz (with the exception of Wayne Horvitz in Nashville), please don't take your priveleged geographical arrangement for granted. "It's only romantic 'cause it never works." - Harriet the Spy ********************************* Mike Shepherd rein0065@frank.mtsu.edu Middle Tennessee State University (615) 898-3652 ********************************* - - ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 06 Nov 1997 16:59:37 -0500 From: Alain Potvin Subject: Re:Lussier and friends At 04:25 06/11/97 -0700, you wrote: >Anyone ever hear of "Les Granules". The piece Avez-vouz Travaille? appears >on the sadly long gone Ear Magazine CD vol. 3. >Impressive piece performed by Jean Derome and Rene Lussier with "no >overdubbing and minimal editing". > >thanks for any info IT's coming from the CD: Au rayaume du silencieux (Ambience magn=E9tique 018).=20 I also have some goodLP's: Soyez vigilants, restez vivants! (vol 1-2) =20 In english "avez vous travaill=E9" means: did you worked? The lyrics are th= e text on the card that you complete every two weeks for Unemployment Canada!= =20 They really have a good sense of humor. The best work from these Montreal-based musiciens is=20 Ren=E9 Lussier "le tr=E9sor de la langue" Lussier drove Quebec by car lookin= g for interview with peoples, my english is too bad to explain much... in brief, he did he's music with the musicallity of the french language. It's really well done. It's probably less interesting if you don't understand french. (anyway, it's difficult to french people outside Quebec! ) Jerome Derome, Lussier, Frith, tanguay, and others are on the CD. Bob Ostertag did some work too. =20 >********************************************************* >* Michael J. Ladd (mladd@iquest.net) * >* Sonic Mutaliation/Audio Abuse/Engineering/Composition * >********************************************************* > > > >- > > Alain Potvin 1296 Julien St-Felicien Quebec, Canada - - ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 6 Nov 1997 16:33:03 -0500 (EST) From: Christopher Hamilton Subject: Re: Heterotaxis On Wed, 5 Nov 1997, Dave Trenkel wrote: > On a related note, I've been listening to an advance copy of "Panthalassa", > Laswell's remix of electric Miles. It's a terrific record. It sounds > absolutely within Miles' original concept, only with much better sound than > any of the original records. I haven't heard the Laswell mixes yet, though I await them with baited breath. But to my ears Teo Macero's sound damned good on good vinyl or a 20-bit remastering job. I'll be happy to be impressed, and I'm sure Laswell's mixes will bring out different things in the music (which is cool), but it's not obvious that the originals needed to be "fixed". Chris Hamilton - - ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 6 Nov 1997 16:45:23 -0500 (EST) From: Christopher Hamilton Subject: Re: Harras/Yankees/Lulu On Wed, 5 Nov 1997, allen huotari wrote: > perhaps this is one simple way to examine how JZ's playing has become "more > melodic, more boppish" ? I think so, though of course the use of heads on _News for Lulu_ forces Zorn to play more melodically there. But I'd assume that Zorn's experience playing head-based compositions in the late 80's with the Lulu and Spy vs. Spy projects encouraged him to develop this direction more in his own playing. Chris Hamilton - - ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 06 Nov 1997 16:23:27 -0500 From: Tom Pratt Subject: chorus I'm looking to find some 20th century vocal music. I have heard a few pieces for chorus by Penderecki and really liked them. Perhaps there is a CD out there by a chorus performing various works by 20th century composers?????? Thanks. -Tom Pratt listening to: Klangbrucke Bern: Selected Soundscape No. 1 - - ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 6 Nov 1997 17:09:05 -0500 (EST) From: Christopher Hamilton Subject: Re: In defense of Gentle Giant On Thu, 6 Nov 1997 CuneiWay@aol.com wrote: > I think everyone who posted on the Gentle Giant thread was a little > self righteous about their dreaded "progishness". Hmmm. Well, I think I was the worst about this (but Steve started it!:^)), so allow me to backpedal. When I called myself a "closet punk", I meant to imply that my reaction to the Gentle Giant comparisons was a bit kneejerk. I just wanted to know if my knee would be likely to jerk in reaction to Interzone's music as well. I agree that a lot of healthy babies get thrown out with the bathwater when people dismiss the genre as a whole. And I'll admit to little familiarity with Gentle Giant's work. Sorry for giving offence. > OF COURSE some of it [GG] sounds somewhat dated now. > [you don't think that ALL the stuff discussed here will sound dated in 20-25 > years? Hah! How old are you & how long have you been listening to music?] What, are you kidding? I think some of Naked City's work sounds dated now! Chris Hamilton - - ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 6 Nov 1997 17:20:15 -0500 (EST) From: Christopher Hamilton Subject: Re:Bailey & d'n'b On Thu, 6 Nov 1997, Yves Dewulf wrote: > Also Bill Laswell has an very good album "oscillations" in which he > alternates between various d'n'b-styles: sometimes quite ethnic (with lots of > aboriginal-like samples), sometimes more jazzy. The funky-Laswell bass > is more or less a constant on this record (a bit unusual for d'n'b records). > Recently a remix-album of this album was released. > (both on the belgian Sub Rosa label) I'm no expert on drum'n'bass, but I like this record a lot. What it has over most other records I've heard in the genre is that it generally keeps the radical rhythms that define the style at the center of the music. Other drum'n'bass records I've heard mostly seem to smooth over the rough rhythmic edges by piling on the samples, synths, etc. (This is also the reason I like Ninj's programming on the Bailey record more than many other d'n'b records, although I agree it's repetitive as programming.) Any pointers to other records in this vein? Chris Hamilton - - ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 6 Nov 1997 17:28:10 -0500 (EST) From: Christopher Hamilton Subject: Re: On Thu, 6 Nov 1997, Chris Barrett wrote: > This strikes me as relveant to a recent thread that I believe surrounded > the discussion of the Parachute box set. Someone in that discussion had > mentioned that Zorn was less interested in how the music sounded than he > was in how it was created. AS much as I love much of Zorn's work, I hate > others, and it strikes me that this could be part of the reason why. If > you bake a cake in a new and innovative way, does it matter if the cake > tastes like a tire? I agree with this to an extent, but it's important to keep in mind that knowledge of music's context (also analysis which someone was dismissing in another post) sometimes actually increases the visceral pleasure a listener gets from music. Chris Hamilton - - ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 6 Nov 1997 17:59:11 -0500 From: "Chris Barrett" Subject: Re: expectations > Chris> someone else's argument for appreciating Zappa took too > Chris> much into account his influences, his ideals and > Chris> personality and his attempts at innovations and did not > Chris> take enough into account his music itself. In other words, > Chris> they argued that the bottom line is the music itself > Chris> despite the pleas to emphasize everything else surrounding > Chris> it. > >To a point, I agree, but there are also the cases where a piece of >music is interesting because we know the identity of the artist. For >example, would we all have the same reaction to, say, Redbird if it >had been Zappa? or Pierre Boulez? Miles? an unknown band from in some obscure location> shipped on cassette with only a photocopied >insert? What if the piece of music in question was Leng T'che? Ok, maybe I wasn't being real clear here. You bring up some good points that I agree with. I was just setting up where I was going, which probably still isn't very clear. I think I sent a rather rambling posting. I was trying to show the two prevailing points of view I've notcied that last week or two that seem to say either a.) the artist is interesting/cool/relevant/appreciated/enjoyed more so because of his/her context, method and goals (i.e. game pieces discussion from a week or two ago) vs. b.) its the music, the end result plain an simple. (keep in mind, I do not own, nor have I listened to any of the cobra pieces in their entirety, only snippets found here and ther on the web. My comments arrive entirely from what I have read of what people have to say about them, so they are meant to be observations not criticisms of the pieces. Hopefully that's how it came across). > The disappointment of a lot of pop music is >based on the fact that the music sounds exactly what I expect. That is a good point. But at the same time, something being exactly like you expect isn't a bad thing. (The Derek Bailey and the Ruins CD was pretty much how I expected it to be, but not what I had hoped for it to be, which is why I am, overall disappointed with it.) Almost everone seems to have a bit of cheesy music they like that they are probably unwilling to admit. And that they are unwilling to admit it is probably partially because it is cheesye pop music, sounds just like everyone expects it too. There has been much speculation since it was revealed that those kf shows of Masada were the last on what Zorn's next project would be. Now while it would be amazingly unlikely, what if it were some sort of pop structure? What if songs began consistantly discernable parts, bridges, resolutions? The weird stuff wouldn't neccessarily be completely gone, but it would be much more "in" than even Masada was? Zorn would definitely be fufilling our expectations of giving us completely not what we expected. But at the same time I am sure that a large part of his major fan base would feel, no matter how infact experimental or innovative it was, cheated. They would feel this way because it would not be what their expectations were, they weren't expecting pop music. In fact that is probably one of the main reasons all of us are so into Zorn's music and the music of so many others that Zorn has bridged us to. >And Zorn is fulfilling another part of confounding expectations with >his A&R work with Avant and Tzadik, where he presents artists with >whom he doesn't actually play, artists which we probably would not >have found or purchased if they hadn't had this association. I >recently acquired Fujeida's plant music album, even after the new age >characterization that it got on this list. Well, it's not your >mother's new age music, for sure. Everything on it is in just >intonation or some even more bizarre tuning, and this is initially >very unsettling. It was not at all what I expected, but because I >liked the first Fujeida and because he's on Tzadik (and because >sometimes new age music isn't totally objectionable), I felt >comfortable taking a chance with it. That is one of the reasons I like Zorn so much, despite the fact that much of his music I do find hit or miss, often on the same CD. I love discovering new things that I had no idea what they sound like (the Fujeida sounds very intersting). > Chris> This strikes me as relevant to a recent thread that I > Chris> believe surrounded the discussion of the Parachute box set. > Chris> Someone in that discussion had mentioned that Zorn was less > Chris> interested in how the music sounded than he was in how it > Chris> was created. AS much as I love much of Zorn's work, I hate > Chris> others, and it strikes me that this could be part of the > Chris> reason why. > >There's nothing wrong with having a story to go with the music. This >increases the enjoyment. I love the story of how Cynical Hysterie >Hour was finally released, and every time I listen to it, some part of >me thinks antagonistic thoughts about large multi-national >blood-sucking corporations. The DMG catalog mentions that Joey Baron >played bags of leaves on Absinthe -- makes me want to go listen to it >again, because that album remains puzzling to me (and I love it for >that). Frederic Rzewski's masterpiece The People United has an >improvised section, which is sometimes present on recordings, >sometimes not. If I know it's there, I recognize it as improvisation >and listen to it one way, but if I don't know this, I listen to it >differently, as if it is part of the composition. Et cetera. Please don't get me wrong. I definitely appreciate stories that go along with the music (the Joey Baron story alos made me go back to listen to Absinthe again, after being completely puzzled at first by it -- it was the second naked city cd I purchased after, of course, Naked City). My point is that, as relevant as the stories may and/or should be surrounding the music, the bottom line, for me anyway, should be the music itself. In a hundred years, or even thirty, there will be even less people then ourselves who will know these stories behind the music (well, at least past history has proved this. The internet does make this more interesting now....) , and for the most part it will be only the music to tell it's story. We have no way of knowing that Joey Baron played bags of leaves without som article or story, and probably many listeners of that CD who don't have access to a list like this, or know many people into the avant garde (even though I live in Boston with all its music schools and I see that the CD's are selling like crazy from the stores, I personally know very few people who are into Zorn or naked City or whomever, who wasn't introduced to it all by me...and I am definitely not an authority on the avant garde). So after that long rant, I guess for me, a completely successful experimental CD, maybe Zorn specifically, but really any of them, has to be able to stand out independently of all other sources (i.e. stories whatever) since the goal really is the *music* (or at least the *sounds*). (I'll cut it out now....) - -Chris - - ------------------------------ End of John Zorn Mailing List Digest V2 #153 ******************************************** - To unsubscribe from $LIST, send an email to "majordomo@xmission.com" with "unsubscribe $LIST" in the body of the message. For information on digests or retrieving files and old messages send "help" to the same address. Do not use quotes in your message.