From: Zorn List Digest Sent: Friday, November 07, 1997 6:44 PM To: zorn-list-digest@xmission.com Subject: Zorn List Digest V2 #151 Zorn List Digest Friday, November 7 1997 Volume 02 : Number 151 In this issue: - sun ra Re: Vocal 20th century music gerry hemingway... d'n'b recommendations was (Re:Bailey & d'n'b) Re:Bailey & d'n'b Re: gerry hemingway... Re: gerry hemingway... Re: d'n'b recommendations was (Re:Bailey & d'n'b) Correction re: Gerry Hemingway hemingway Re: John Oswald Re: Avant . . . "the music itself" & expectati0ns ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Date: Fri, 07 Nov 1997 15:38:25 -0500 From: Valkwitch Subject: sun ra Sun Ra was quite prolific. While I can't guess the total number of > documented recordings he released (not to mention the undocumented ones too), > it would probably be safe to say that the total was well over 150 LPs. > Sunny's lack of availability of course, was due to small pressings and > little distribution. The only way I picked up many of his El Saturn > recordings was at his concerts, and that was if you caught him early enough > in a tour. i think most of his stuff (the saturn recordings)is being re-released by the evidence label.... - - ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 07 Nov 1997 15:41:07 -0500 From: Valkwitch Subject: Re: Vocal 20th century music Nuno BARREIRO wrote: > > A must: Stimmung by Stockhausen > > - is this hard to find? alot of stockhausen's compositions are, but i think he's releasing them himself right now...i only have mantra and kontakte... - - ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 07 Nov 1997 15:45:46 -0500 From: Valkwitch Subject: gerry hemingway... anyone like gerry hemingway? i just picked up "marmalade king" that i found in the used racks... - - ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 7 Nov 1997 09:05:51 -0500 From: pm.carey@utoronto.ca (Patrick Carey) Subject: d'n'b recommendations was (Re:Bailey & d'n'b) [message from list owner: God damn, you guys are verbose. This is the third email in 24 hours to exceed majordomos message size limit. - rizzi ] Yves Dewulf wrote: >Here comes a long list of d'n'b albums that can interest some of you: Quite off topic I'd say, but now that it's been started I'd just like to second some of these, make some comments, and add a few more names that were missed, IMO ... >There are some very freaked out d'n'b -records by squarepusher: >very hectic rhythms (some call it drill & bass) >with sometimes strange synth-sounds , sometimes 70's-like fusion. Definitely. Check out his "Feed Me Weird Things" CD, "Port Rhombus" 12" (Warp) as well as his earlier Worm Interface 12", "Bubble & Squeak", and his Spymania 12"s, which have just been put out on CD (Warp) along with new tracks. His "Vic Acid" single is good, but his last CD "Hard Normal Daddy", and EP, "Big Loada" didn't do much for me. >Amon Tobin samples from old jazz-records and samba-records (he's partly >brazilian), I think this is one of the best mixtures of funk,jazz >and batuccada-music up to now, hard to remain seated. >(on the Ninja-tune label: "Bricolage"-CD, "Piranha Break" -EP) And his "Chomp Somba" & "Mission" EPs as well. >Also Bill Laswell has an very good album "oscillations" in which he >alternates between various d'n'b-styles: sometimes quite ethnic (with lots of >aboriginal-like samples), sometimes more jazzy. The funky-Laswell bass >is more or less a constant on this record (a bit unusual for d'n'b records). >Recently a remix-album of this album was released. >(both on the belgian Sub Rosa label) Ninj's programming on this album does less & less for me the more I listen to this. I'm a huge Laswell fan, and I enjoyed the album when it initially came out, but when compared to all of the great twisted breakbeat creations currently out there (some much older than this as well) it falls short, IMO. For Ninj at his best, try his remix of Scorn's "Stairway" on the recently reissued "White Irises Blind" single. >David Shea has some d'n'b-tracks on his more recent albums (mostly a >collage of d'n'b rhythms, samples of ethnic percussion, and both symphonic >and ethnic samples.) d'n'b goes classic, but don't expect sweet string >arrangments, rather the Stockhausen kind of thing: > -Satyricon (on Sub Rosa) I defintely second the recommendation of "Satyricon", as well as some of his recent live material with Hampson, Scanner et al. put out as part of Sub Rosa's live series. >Very Dark d'n'b can be found on "Overload Lady" by Mick Harris & Erraldo >Bernocchi (on Sub Rosa: very scorn-like, dark soundscapes with very deep beats, >more regular and techno-like than the other records mentionned here) and >on recordings from the illbient-people (DJ-Spooky, DJ Soulslinger, We,...) flamerik@best.ms.philips.com added: >Actually, a number of 12"-es on Harris' Possible Records label are also worth >checking out, notably Quoit (aka Mick Harris himself) and the two Ambush >records. I personally recommend all of the Possible material. Some of my favorite stuff when it comes to dark techstep/experimental (or whatever you want to call it). The Quoit album & 12", the Simm material (12" is better than the CD which is quite the sub-Scorn clone), Jupiter Crew 12" (Plotkin is amazing here), PCM 12", Interceptor & Ambush 12"s ... Good news here is that since Possible recently folded, Invisible in the US have decided to revive it (with Mick's help) in 1998 with a 2CD of all the Possible 12"s, and brand new albums by _all_ of the featured artists (except JC which I would love a full-length of). There's also Mick's Matera CD "Same Here" on Invisible/Sub/Mission which has some dense breakbeat assaults, and an Overload Lady PT II which is in the works. I don't care for Soulslinger very much, but I can't recommend the We album (Asphodel) enough. One of the best albums of '97 in this genre I'd say. Brilliant. Straying slightly away from this topic, some of the other Asphodel artists have also put out great dark & experimental works incorporating elements of dub, reggae, techno & d'n'b with some great twisted rhythms and off-kilter beats, namely Byzar (CD & 12") and Sub Dub (CD much different than their debut & earlier 12"s), and also DJ Spooky. The "Incursions in Illbient" comp. is a good starting point for this ... Yves Dewulf again: >More mainstream-jungle and d'n'b and still quite good: >Roni Size and Reprazent (jazzy + raps) flamerik@best.ms.philips.com added: >Very, very good. Making use of live instruments as well. >Another good crossover between d&b and jazz would be Lamb. I definitely second the Lamb recommendation. They were amazing live on their recent US tour. They have an upright bass player and trumpet player mixed with some sultry & highly emotive female vocals (c/o Louise Rhodes) with a backdrop of quite creative beats, breaks & atmospherics (c/o Andy Barlow) Check out their S/T CD and the extra tracks on their "Gorecki" single. Yves Dewulf again: >Photek (sometimes quite dark) flamerik@best.ms.philips.com added: >Photek is by no means mainstream. His records feature THE most complex drum >programming available. He's just released his debut album, called Modus >Operandi, through Virgin, but I must say that I like the 12"-es that he >releasedon his own Photek label better, especially "The Seven Samurai" and >>"U.F.O.", which I think is the best drum'n'bass track ever. If you're >into >Photek you may also want to check Source Direct. Agreed on the comments here, and on the Soure Direct recommendation. I would say that his early 12"s are, for the most part, his best work, and if all goes well, a comp. of these recordings should be out on CD early next year! Yves Dewulf again: >LTJ Bukem (very jazzy, and sometimes a bit to sweet and easy for me) flamerik@best.ms.philips.com added: >I don't like Bukem at all. His style is way too smooth, >and his keyboard sounds remind me of all those new age records. Can't stand Bukem myself. A couple more names that should not be overlooked ... Plug aka Luke Vibert. The Plug material, IMO, is genius for Luke's ability to insert & fuck with the strangest samples (vocal & otherwise at just the right moments) and for his incorporation of jazz, funk, hip-hop, techno, big band as well as all sorts of other genres into one of the weirdest & most enjoyable (quite comedic at times) melanges of bass 'n' breakbeat madness. Check out "Drum 'N' Bass For Papa" ... either the single original CD (Blue Planet), or one or both of the 2CD versions [the Blue Planet one has the original album, plus the Plug 3 12" from 1995, and the US domestic release on Nothing has the original album (with a few switches due to sample clearance) and nearly all of his Plug 1, 2 & 3 12"s from 1995]. Luke's 1995 Plug EPs were some of the earliest (some have argued the earliest) examples of what has come to be known, quite stupidly IMO, as "drill 'n' bass/fungle", or more simply frantic & schizophrenic d'n'b that is all over the map when it comes to style ... Witchman aka John Roome. Most obviously a bandwagon jumper, but who isn't these days. Not all d'n'b, some downtempo & more hip-hop & jazz influenced stuff as well, with vocal samples and dark atmospherics paying homage to sci-fi and post-Throbbing Gristle/SPK "industrial" and EBM material. His early stuff is the best, IMO ("Main Vein" 12" (self-released WL), "States Of Mind" 12" (Blue Angel), Shape Of Rage" 12" (Leaf), "Nightmare Alley" 2x12" (Deviant), "Explorimenting Beats" CD (Deviant), and his "Heavy Mental" 12" (Deviant) which was quite watered down IMO. A 2CD set called "Heavy Traffic" is planned on Deviant, and should include a lot of his early 12" material. Lee Perry also put out a great album of drum 'n' bass with Mad Professor entitled "Super Ape Inna Jungle". Perry rambles on & on in that crazy style he is known for, and the bass is some of the lowest (without being too low that a subwoofer is needed to hear it) & most dense I've heard in a while. This album is on Ariwa. Yves Dewulf again: > Most of these are really worth checking out and are more diverse than > most of the d'n'b -stuff played in clubs (so you can also listen to them > at home without being bored after two tracks). flamerik@best.ms.philips.com added: >There's nothing wrong with the drum'n'bass played in (good!) clubs. Actually, >you listed albums only, while the whole d&b scene, at least in Europe, revolves >around the DJ culture, which means vinyl, 12" singles, white labels, etc. >Some of the best d&b tracks have been available as 12"-es only. This is very true regarding the club scene & the importnce of vinyl, and yes, I would agree that some of the best d'n'b tracks have been put out solely on 12". I'm a big fan of both formats. What this means is I collect all the original 12"s that I can, but I can also appreciate it when these tracks become available (later on down the line) on CD, as a lot of them have lately. Also, full-length CD albums are the easiest way for newcomers to get a hold of some of this music, since not everyone is into hunting down the various (sometimes limited) slabs of vinyl. flamerik@best.ms.philips.com again: >Also, you forget to mention the artists in the tech step scene, d&b's darker >sibbling. Very much worthwhile in this area is the Torque 3LP by the No-U-Turn >artists (Ed Rush, Nico, Trace, Fierce). Some of the No-U-Turn stuff works for me, and some of it doesn't. I'd also recommend some of the Panacea material (12"s & CD on Chrome), although he's not a big favorite of mine ... very dark though. There's also Mr. Empire & all the Digital Hardcore stuff (Shizou, EC8OR etc.), which doesn't do much for me either, but may be right up the alleys of others here as it's always quite dark, dense, and brutal, for lack of a better word. Also, some of the recent Techno Animal 12"s may be of interest here (Phobic, Unmanned, Babylon Seeker) ... all excellent IMO. This should be more than enough. Now back to Zorn ... ;-) - -Patrick - - ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 7 Nov 1997 10:02:31 -0600 From: dmcrump@sunset.backbone.olemiss.edu (Rusty Crump) Subject: Re:Bailey & d'n'b >>anybody have any recommendations of good drums'n'bass recordings? > Over in Frank's APA, drum&bass has been one of the few styles universally loved by the whole membership for the last two or three years. The same names keep coming up: Spring Heel Jack, the Omni Trio, Goldie, etc. But of all the discs I've heard, a 1994 compilation on SSR/Crammed Discs called "Jungle Vibes" is by far my favorite. These were the really early days of drum&bass -- music that is to the Richard D. James Album as early Chuck Berry is to the current King Crimson incarnation. Plus, it has my favorite single jungle track of all time: "Renegade Snares" by the Omni Trio. Rusty Crump - - ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 7 Nov 1997 13:11:37 -0800 From: "Schwitterz" Subject: Re: gerry hemingway... >anyone like gerry hemingway? i just picked up "marmalade king" that i >found in the used racks... I love Gerry Hemingway. He is trying to work out a date with us here in Ventura for this summer with Eskelin, Ray Anderson, and Mark Dresser. His music just keeps getting better, and his work with Braxton is stunning. sZ - - ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 07 Nov 1997 15:54:33 -0500 From: Tom Pratt Subject: Re: gerry hemingway... Schwitterz wrote: > > >anyone like gerry hemingway? i just picked up "marmalade king" that i > >found in the used racks... > > I love Gerry Hemingway. He is trying to work out a date with us here in > Ventura for this summer with Eskelin, Ray Anderson, and Mark Dresser. His > music just keeps getting better, and his work with Braxton is stunning. > > sZ ESPECIALLY the Wilisau Quartet 4CD set on Hat Art. This is an essential item for everyone's collection... I like Gerry Hemmingway much as well. -Tom Pratt - - ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 7 Nov 1997 16:58:31 -0500 (EST) From: matthew.colonnese@yale.edu (Matthew Colonnese) Subject: Re: d'n'b recommendations was (Re:Bailey & d'n'b) > >Lee Perry also put out a great album of drum 'n' bass with Mad Professor >entitled "Super Ape Inna Jungle". Perry rambles on & on in that crazy >style he is known for, and the bass is some of the lowest (without being >too low that a subwoofer is needed to hear it) & most dense I've heard >in a while. This album is on Ariwa. This is deffinately an unjustly overlooked sleeper album; all the better cause, like most Ariwa stuff if you look you'll almost certainly find it used in any major city. Also its the only recent lee perry album I've unconditionally liked. I'm glad you brought it up. Straight jungle (as opposed to drill etc) is still best with the reggae bassline kept in and heavy. The skittering crazed beats over the rock steady bass still makes me very happy. Much of the most lauded recent d n' bass has lost so much of the bass. Ah well, that's progess I guess. - ------ "Finally, a thing-a-ma-giggy that would bring people together...even if it kept them apart, spatially." - - ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 07 Nov 1997 18:13:15 -0500 From: Steve Smith Subject: Correction re: Gerry Hemingway I just wanted to note that upon further examining Gerry's updated website, it appears to have been too soon to say that the Quintet is defunct (although it was, in point of fact, Gerry who said it essentially was, so I guess this truly is an update). The Qunitet will no longer tour but is making itself available for festival work in Europe in 1998. so perhaps we haven't heard the last of them after all... Egg-on-facedly, Steve Smith ssmith36@sprynet.com - - ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 07 Nov 1997 18:26:14 -0500 From: "ALAN E. KAYSER" Subject: hemingway Just to throw my two cents in...Hemingway's HatArt CDs are wonderful, especially for including the neglected Michael Moore on reeds. Hemingway also has two cds on Random Acoustics "Perfect World" and "Slamadam" with both the Quartet and Quintet. Both were recorded about the same time as Marmalade King, and in fact are a live version of much of his music at the time. He is also the percussionist on James Emery's new CD, which is terrific. Of course Gerry is best known for his work with Braxton's Quartet, a group that IMHO belongs up there with such as the famous Miles Quintet, the Coleman Quartet, etc. An ensemble of perfection...Braxton, Mark Dresser, Gerry Hemingway, and Marilyn Crispell. The Willisau does indeed belong in every collection, as does the new Santa Fe Quartet on HatArt and the Leo sets documenting the English tour of the Quartet in 1985. If you can find it, check out Graham Lock's book "Forces in Motion" which he wrote while on tour with the group. If you can find the HatArt Hemingway's buy them, they are being cut from the catalog!!! Alan Kayser - - ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 7 Nov 1997 19:22:24 -0500 (EST) From: ia zha nah er vesen Subject: Re: John Oswald > > The original "Plunderphonics" was recently re-released as a 3" mini- by > those crazies in Austria - still a wonderful, nutty thing. Wow...i didn't think that would ever see the light of day after being destroyed by the canadian government for copywrite infringement. Do you know what the label name is? - -jascha - - ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 7 Nov 1997 19:51:53 -0500 (EST) From: ia zha nah er vesen Subject: Re: Avant . . . > I got an AVANT catalogue from disk union which is distributor of AVANT. > So I add the following CDs. > 62 - Drums of Death (1997 - Avant, Avant 062) wheeeee! This sounds wonderful... - -jascha - - ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 7 Nov 1997 17:41:35 -0800 From: Herb Levy Subject: "the music itself" & expectati0ns Chris Barrett wrote: >The Zappa discussion thing...someone mentioned (and Igot such a flurry of >postings this morning, as I quickly retrace them I can't find the one I'm >looking for) that someone else's argument for appreciating Zappa took too >much into account his influences, his ideals and personality and his >attempts at innovations and did not take enough into account his music >itself. In other words, they argued that the bottom line is the music >itself despite the pleas to emphasize everything else surrounding it. As, I think, I'm the person paraphrased here, let me restate a bit of my argument, as I was going in a very different direction than Barrett took it. & note that I don't mean to be picking on Chris Barrett here (for one thing we both share a respect for the work Zorn's done to promote work by other composers). It's just that his arguments are a good jumping off place for my point. I'm more concerned with issues of taste & reception than "the music itself". For most purposes, "the music itself" isn't as important as a listeners experience of it, nor are the two easily separated (in many ways "the music itself" doesn't exist apart from our perception of it). This is why I wrote >How the music sounds to a listener is what matters rather than just "how the music sounds." I come to this music with a long history of involvement in "avant garde" music, rather than as a pop music fan who's been introduced to that end of things by Zappa or Zorn. Coming at the work from that end, I find Zappa's "serious" work to be far less interesting than Zorn's. Coming at these works as a listener to mostly pop or rock music, they're both apparently pretty weird. A clear example of how "the music itself" is determined by the listener's experience, rather than as some abstract complete entity on its own. My problem with Zappa's music isn't with the music itself, far from it. It's that for much of what it often seen as his most serious and progressive music, the post serial chamber/orchestral works, there's other similar music that I value much more highly based on my own experience and taste. This is what invalidates the argument from influence for me: that other work with similar influences (including some of the work that influenced him) seems to me to be stronger and more original than Zappa's. So my take on Barrett's later call for Zorn to do pop music as a move to shake up his audience is a bit different. He wrote: >There has been much speculation since it was revealed that those kf shows >of Masada were the last on what Zorn's next project would be. Now while >it would be amazingly unlikely, what if it were some sort of pop structure? >What if songs began consistantly discernable parts, bridges, resolutions? >The weird stuff wouldn't neccessarily be completely gone, but it would be >much more "in" than even Masada was? Zorn would definitely be fufilling >our expectations of giving us completely not what we expected. But at the >same time I am sure that a large part of his major fan base would feel, no >matter how infact experimental or innovative it was, cheated. They would >feel this way because it would not be what their expectations were, they >weren't expecting pop music. In fact that is probably one of the main >reasons all of us are so into Zorn's music and the music of so many others >that Zorn has bridged us to. I find a lot of Naked City's work has "some sort of pop structure" with "consistently discernable parts, bridges, resolutions". Listen to the self-titled CD, or Radio for the best examples of this, but even a substantial number of the Torture Garden pieces are recognizably "songs." Masada IS based on song structures, too. So was, in a different way, Locus Solus. What would you have Zorn do, record weird versions of songs by Burt Bachrach? Herb Levy herb@eskimo.com - - ------------------------------ End of Zorn List Digest V2 #151 ******************************* To unsubscribe from zorn-list-digest, send an email to "majordomo@xmission.com" with "unsubscribe zorn-list-digest" in the body of the message. For information on digests or retrieving files and old messages send "help" to the same address. Do not use quotes in your message. 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