From: Zorn List Digest Sent: Friday, November 14, 1997 5:15 AM To: zorn-list-digest@xmission.com Subject: Zorn List Digest V2 #156 Zorn List Digest Friday, November 14 1997 Volume 02 : Number 156 In this issue: - guts of a virgin Re: Oh No! Stanley, Wynton, Andrew Speight (who?) and Frank Re: Sigillum S. Re: Zorn's influences (Wynton content) Joe Morris Trio live Re: Sigillum S. Re: Scores by Ikue Mori and Xtian Marclay Re: Going thru the motions, or invention? (even more hot air) Re: Forbidden Fruit--musical score Sanctuary Re: Going thru the motions, or invention? (even more hot air) Re: Going thru the motions, or invention? (even more hot air) Re: Going thru the motions, or invention? (even more hot air) Re: "Too much music" is never enough! Re: Zorn's influences (Wynton content) Re: Going thru the motions, or invention? (even more hot air) ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Date: Thu, 13 Nov 1997 08:50:07 +0100 (MEZ) From: BJOERN Subject: guts of a virgin i sent that some days ago but it seems that it didnt reach the list.. just a question: i found guts of a virgin in a record store in frankfurt...sure i bought it (on vinyl).. question: is this any rare? BJOERN - - ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 13 Nov 1997 10:17:52 GMT0BST From: DR S WILKIE Subject: Re: Oh No! Stanley, Wynton, Andrew Speight (who?) and Frank Anyone care to explain how/why Stanley Crouch moved from championing David Murray to championing Wynton Marsalis? I used to be very fond of Black Codes From The Underground - maybe I still am, but I lost it in a burglary, and haven't heard it for years. Sure, its points of reference were the Davis Quintets of the 60s, but what the hell. Marsalis played the Proms in London about four years ago, doing one "act" of In This House, On This Morning, and damn fine it was too, tho' the scene-stealer was his trombone player (can't remember his name, but he was a regular band member at the time) ... Also, in 1993 or 1994, I heard a superb Australian also player called Andrew Speight (I think) playing in a tiny after hours jam session in Edinburgh during the festival - he was a runaway train, but somehow never actually fell off the tracks. A week later, just before he went home to Australia, he was doing the backstreets at the Brecon jazz Festival, where Wynton was headlining, and Wynton brought him onstage to join the group for a few numbers (I wasn't there, but was raving about Speight to somebody a few weeks later, who had been at Brecon and recognised my description. A few numbers were broadcast on BBC a month later, so I was able to confirm this). Has anybody heard anything of an Andrew Speight in the past four years?? That said, I've heard some right old guff (musically and otherwise) from Wynton Marsalis ... (I don't watch Burt Reynolds films, but you can't take his Deliverance performance away from him) What I actually logged in to comment on was this: I'm intrigued by the way in which a number of people regarded Zappa as a sign-post towards modern classical music only. Didn't anyone get into Eric Dolphy or Ayler because of Zappa (the first time I heard the opening bars of Hat And Beard, I burst out laughing and said, so that's where Zappa got it from!)? More recently, I got into some 50s doo-wop records, whence I was amazed to discover that Frank's concept of backing vocals was much less original than I had thought, and in some cases was much less weird than what came out back then (I knew Rubber Biscuit from Scorsese's Mean Streets, but I'm referring here to more superficially "normal" doo-wop love tunes). Any fans of doo- wop backing vocals have any recommendations for me ...?? Sean Wilkie - - ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 13 Nov 1997 05:57:38 -0500 From: pm.carey@utoronto.ca (Patrick Carey) Subject: Re: Sigillum S. >I'm seeking information on this CD. I understand it's part of a 3cd set. >Is it in itself a full length CD? Is Laswell on it at all? Is it good? Which CD is it that you're looking for? Sigillum S is an Italian power electronics group that have been around since the early 80's and have a number of CDs & records out ... Laswell is not on any of them, but he did work with Eraldo Bernocchi (Sigillum S member & founder) and Mick Harris on the "Equations Of Eternity" project, and I believe he has done (or will be doing soon) some work with Bernocchi on a few film soundtracks. - -Patrick - - ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 13 Nov 1997 10:23:38 GMT From: "Ockham's stubble" Subject: Re: Zorn's influences (Wynton content) Christopher Hamilton asked: 2) Even if this is true in some sense, why is that a good thing if the music wasn't that good? you're joking. regardless of your take on the vsop group, their being a lead to miles 60's quintet is one why, full stop. - -b - - ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 13 Nov 1997 10:02:03 -0500 From: cdeupree@interagp.com (Caleb Deupree) Subject: Joe Morris Trio live We went to see the Joe Morris Trio last night, and the concert was phenomenal. All three players have astounding technique and listen to each other very well. Their tour of the eastern US is terminating this week with dates in Chicago, Detroit, Toronto, and Rochester -- you can get exact dates and venues on the Knitting Factory home page (thus the Zorn connection, in case you were wondering). They played one 90-minute set with about eight different pieces, so they all had time to stretch. Morris plays very fast lines, with very few chords and to my ears avoiding most kinds of harmony (although his compositions have noticeable free sections and equally noticeable resolution points). His sound is relatively traditional, in that most of the time you know he's playing a guitar. He has an interesting tremolo which he plays while other band members are soloing, and in some of the quieter free sections he scrapes his pick along the strings, but mostly it's clean and fast. The drummer, Jerome Deupree, is one of the few drummers I've ever seen who pays this much attention to detail, caring equally about the decay as well as the attack, using different kinds of sticks (often simultaneously) and different parts of the kit. There is seldom any suggestion of a beat per se, but rhythmic patterns which seem random but which reflect Morris's lines extremely sympathetically. The bass player, Nate McBride, plays with an intensity I've rarely seen before, both bowing and picking. The opening number featured Morris lines, McBride filling the room with long bowed chords, and Deupree dancing on his kit with brushes, and this set the tone for the whole set. In short, this group is jaw-dropping amazing. If you get a chance to catch one of the remaining tour dates, or to see them in their home town of Boston, you should take advantage of the opportunity. Caleb Deupree cdeupree@interagp.com Computers are useless. They can only give you answers. (Pablo Picasso) - - ------------------------------ Date: From: Sean Terwilliger Subject: Re: Sigillum S. Patrick Carey wrote: > > >I'm seeking information on this CD. I understand it's part of a 3cd set. > >Is it in itself a full length CD? Is Laswell on it at all? Is it good? > > Which CD is it that you're looking for? Sigillum S is an Italian > power electronics group that have been around since the early 80's > and have a number of CDs & records out ... Laswell is not on any of > them, but he did work with Eraldo Bernocchi (Sigillum S member & > founder) and Mick Harris on the "Equations Of Eternity" project, > and I believe he has done (or will be doing soon) some work with > Bernocchi on a few film soundtracks. > > -Patrick > > - I'm not even sure of the title. I was mostly wondering if, like Ashes, Laswell was a part of it. Thanks, Sean - - ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 10 Nov 1997 15:53:47 +1100 (EST) From: James Douglas Knox Subject: Re: Scores by Ikue Mori and Xtian Marclay On Sat, 8 Nov 1997 JonAbbey2@aol.com wrote: > from the news page at tzadik.com: > > Coming In January 1998 > > IKUE MORI - B/SIDE > Featuring: > Anthony Coleman, Erik Friedlander, Andy Haas, Kato Hideki, Zeena > Parkins, Tenko, David Watson, Ikue Mori. > Ikue Mori's electric percussion is quite simply some of the most > original and exciting work happening in electronic music today. > > For her third Tzadik release, Ikue has assembled a varied collection > of her most interesting tracks originally recorded for use in the films of > award winning avant garde filmmaker Abigail Child. Erik Friedlander, There's a programme of short films by Abigail Child screening here in a couple weeks. I think one of them ("Mayhem") has a score by Xtian Marclay - but I'm probably wrong. Anyway, I'll post some details after I scope 'em. I've heard about another short film, "Wax", essentially composed of the sounds and images of Marclay wreaking his usual havoc on vinyl records. Does anyone have any more details on this? Cheers, Jim "To be a good revolutionary, we must pass all academic exams" - - Dusan Makaveyev - - ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 7 Nov 1997 17:24:10 +1100 (EST) From: James Douglas Knox Subject: Re: Going thru the motions, or invention? (even more hot air) On Thu, 6 Nov 1997, Christopher Hamilton wrote: > > Personally, I think it's more likely that Zorn, like three of the eight > composers mentioned above, will become a part of the jazz tradition than > the classical tradition, for several reasons: 1. Some of his music is > obviously jazz. 2. Much of his music involves a lot of improvisation. 3. > He's American. And, most importantly, 4. He plays saxophone. (These are, > of course, major reasons his records usually wind up in the jazz bins > now.) > Any distinction between jazz and classical music is becoming increasingly more difficult to define. I'd reckon that much of the most interesting music being made now evades just about all of those conventional genre pigeonholes. Its a funny thing; I remember a couple years back going into the newly opened HMV store, in the CBD of one of the state capitals down here. You know the drill - a sprawling-aisled supermarket type affair; something *for everyone*. Out of curiosity I looked in the jazz racks under 'Z'; and was gratified to find some of Zorn's work lurking there. But it was Locus Solus and Kristallnacht! > Mind you, I think it's at least as likely that it won't be plausible > to distinguish between those traditions in a hundred years. And I have > very little faith in the ability of anyone to predict what will be seen as > important about our time in the future. - - ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 7 Nov 1997 17:28:05 +1100 (EST) From: James Douglas Knox Subject: Re: Forbidden Fruit--musical score On Thu, 6 Nov 1997, Gordon Fitzell wrote: > > Any suggestions on how I can obtain a copy of the score for Zorn's > Forbidden Fruit? I am discussing the work in my Ph.D. thesis at UBC in > Vancouver (my area of research is moment music), but I can't find the > score anywhere. > > I've emailed Tzadik as well as several unofficial John Zorn home page > oweners, but no luck yet--who publishes his scores?! So far as I know, all Zorn's work is self-published, via Theatre of Musical Optics. Sorry I can't tell you any more Cheers, Jim - - ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 13 Nov 1997 14:39:54 EST From: "MBS" Subject: Sanctuary Dave Douglas has this new two-cder out.. can someone tell me what it is like .. etc? Also about his other solo material.. private email if ya like. Matt - - ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 13 Nov 1997 14:46:20 -0500 From: cdeupree@interagp.com (Caleb Deupree) Subject: Re: Going thru the motions, or invention? (even more hot air) Caleb Deupree cdeupree@interagp.com Computers are useless. They can only give you answers. (Pablo Picasso) - - ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 13 Nov 1997 14:57:52 -0500 From: cdeupree@interagp.com (Caleb Deupree) Subject: Re: Going thru the motions, or invention? (even more hot air) Please forgive the empty message a minute ago. Loose fingers... >>>>> "James" == James Douglas Knox writes: James> Any distinction between jazz and classical music is James> becoming increasingly more difficult to define. I'd reckon James> that much of the most interesting music being made now James> evades just about all of those conventional genre James> pigeonholes. I've started experimenting with storing CDs by genre instead of the previous method of simply alphabetical by artist, and I've ended up with jazz, classical, avant-garde, music from around the world, etc. I recently acquired a CD called Gushwachs, which features 'electroacoustic improvisation' by jazz improvisers Mats Gustafsson, Sten Sandell, Raymond Strid, and Philpp Wachsmann. I got it from Cadence, which usually means it's jazz (which the personnel would confirm). But it's the closest I've ever heard to Stockhausen's intuitive music, so is it classical? It doesn't really sound like either one, so is it avant garde? Hmm... I remind myself that most of the great 'classical' composers, at least up until the late romantics, were great improvisers. Beethoven merely sketched in the piano parts of some of his piano and orchestra works, cadenzas in concerti were improvised, not to mention solo performers like Chopin and Lizst. Back improvised three-voice fugues on themes he'd never heard before. For one, I'm thrilled to see improvisation coming back to 'classical' music, regardless of how hard it is to categorize a CD. Caleb Deupree cdeupree@interagp.com Computers are useless. They can only give you answers. (Pablo Picasso) - - ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 13 Nov 1997 12:22:49 -0800 From: "Patrice L. Roussel" Subject: Re: Going thru the motions, or invention? (even more hot air) On Fri, 7 Nov 1997 17:24:10 +1100 (EST) James Douglas Knox wrote: > > > > On Thu, 6 Nov 1997, Christopher Hamilton wrote: > > > > Personally, I think it's more likely that Zorn, like three of the eight > > composers mentioned above, will become a part of the jazz tradition than > > the classical tradition, for several reasons: 1. Some of his music is > > obviously jazz. 2. Much of his music involves a lot of improvisation. 3. > > He's American. And, most importantly, 4. He plays saxophone. (These are, But being white, his chance of being in the classical bin are higher than somebody like Braxton (who is doomed to be in the jazz section forever...). Anyway, when I see what is available these days in the classical section of some stores, I feel happy that Zorn (and Braxton, Sharp, Breuker, etc, to list few people who write avant compositions in a "classical" sense), are not there... Unfortunately, when I check the jazz sections, I feel the same also... > > of course, major reasons his records usually wind up in the jazz bins > > now.) > > > Any distinction between jazz and classical music is becoming > increasingly more difficult to define. I'd reckon that much of the most > interesting music being made now evades just about all of those > conventional genre pigeonholes. I wholeheartly agree with you! The new generation of musicians/artists seem to ignore such classification (what is an individual with an academic position and a business card where it is written "composer"?). I read something funny about Ben Neill. He used to be the music director for the Kitchen. At a moment, he decided to invite DJs to play at the Kitchen and the board of directors there got freaked out (they might have been afraid that they would stain the carpet of write grafittis in the toilets, I guess). This went so far that Neill had to leave the Kitchen (and God knows for how long he had been there!). Fortunately, he is back and the new board of directors seems to be more open to other genres of music. > Its a funny thing; I remember a couple years back going into the newly > opened HMV store, in the CBD of one of the state capitals down here. You > know the drill - a sprawling-aisled supermarket type affair; something > *for everyone*. Out of curiosity I looked in the jazz racks under 'Z'; and > was gratified to find some of Zorn's work lurking there. But it was Locus > Solus and Kristallnacht! > > > Mind you, I think it's at least as likely that it won't be plausible > > to distinguish between those traditions in a hundred years. And I have > > very little faith in the ability of anyone to predict what will be seen as > > important about our time in the future. Patrice. - - ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 7 Nov 1997 17:51:52 +1100 (EST) From: James Douglas Knox Subject: Re: "Too much music" is never enough! "If music be the food of love - play on. Give me excess of it!" - - Wild Bill Shakespeare On Thu, 6 Nov 1997, Ash Doyle wrote: > I am amused by the people who have been commenting that musicians > in this genre have been putting out too many recordings. These > comments seem bordering on complaint. You should be glad that the > musicians you enjoy are putting out recordings reguarly and so Oh; the actual volume of the music being released is cause for nothing but happiness - I can only hope it increases. My whinging was (or was intended to be; y'know, I get a bit inchoate at the best of times) specifically directed to the fact that Zorn hasn't radically altered his style in, oh, six months now :-) I got no doubt I'd feel a lot less impatient if I was ctually in a postion to hear him playing. I dunno. cheers, Jim - - ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 14 Nov 1997 00:03:18 -0500 (EST) From: Christopher Hamilton Subject: Re: Zorn's influences (Wynton content) On Thu, 13 Nov 1997, Ockham's stubble wrote: > 2) Even if > this is true in some sense, why is that a good thing if the music wasn't > that good? > you're joking. regardless of your take on the vsop group, their > being a lead to miles 60's quintet is one why, full stop. But have they actually led many people to the 60's Davis group? That was my question, and it's not a joke. I don't have a problem with the Marsalis stuff as music; I'm just doubtful that the "It leads people to better music" defense is any more apt in Marsalis's case than in Kenny G's. Chris Hamilton - - ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 14 Nov 1997 08:11:03 -0500 (EST) From: "k. drudge" Subject: Re: Going thru the motions, or invention? (even more hot air) > I've started experimenting with storing CDs by genre instead of the > previous method of simply alphabetical by artist, and I've ended up > with jazz, classical, avant-garde, music from around the world, etc. > I recently acquired a CD called Gushwachs, which features > 'electroacoustic improvisation' by jazz improvisers Mats Gustafsson, > Sten Sandell, Raymond Strid, and Philpp Wachsmann. I got it from > Cadence, which usually means it's jazz (which the personnel would > confirm). But it's the closest I've ever heard to Stockhausen's > intuitive music, so is it classical? It doesn't really sound like > either one, so is it avant garde? Hmm... The best filing method i've ever heard of is colour-of-spine. keldon - - ------------------------------ End of Zorn List Digest V2 #156 ******************************* To unsubscribe from zorn-list-digest, send an email to "majordomo@xmission.com" with "unsubscribe zorn-list-digest" in the body of the message. For information on digests or retrieving files and old messages send "help" to the same address. Do not use quotes in your message. A non-digest (direct mail) version of this list is also available; to subscribe to that instead, replace all instances of "zorn-list-digest" in the commands above with "zorn-list". Back issues are available for anonymous FTP from ftp.xmission.com, in pub/lists/zorn-list/archive. These are organized by date.