From: Zorn List Digest Sent: Wednesday, November 19, 1997 9:05 AM To: zorn-list-digest@xmission.com Subject: Zorn List Digest V2 #167 Zorn List Digest Wednesday, November 19 1997 Volume 02 : Number 167 In this issue: - Solaris / stalker etc etc Re: Wynton/Blues Re: The big deal with _Naked City_ Re: Ascension or Descension?/questions Leng T'Che Angel Song Re: Leng T'Che Re: Leng T'Che Re: "I'M GONNA MAKE YOU SUFFER!"--John Zorn at LA Concert Re: Somebody kick me! (was: some crazy-arse Jewish violin music...) Re: Zorn's influences (Wynton content) Hamiet Bluiett (was Re: Hemphill) Re: Borbetomagus ... Hamiet Bluiett question. Re: Hamiet Bluiett (was Re: Hemphill) Matthew Shipp Another question Re: Hamiet Bluiett (was Re: Hemphill) Re: Borbetomagus ... Frank Lowe Milo is Fine Re: Frank Lowe ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Date: Tue, 18 Nov 1997 15:59:29 -0700 From: Phil Subject: Solaris / stalker etc etc On Tues, Nov 18th, James Knox wrote: (snip) > > > "Solaris" has one of the most effective and haunting soundtracks of any > film, and it sounds like a great deal of it is classic analog tape musique > concrete. Do you have any details on where one could actually get this? > >I'm sure the EVA label in Japan released both the soundtracks for Solaris >and Stalker, on separate discs in Japan. Once upon a time you could get >them thru Japan O/S, but now...I'm not too sure. I bought a CD of the soundtracks to Tarkovsky's Solaris, Mirror & Stalker (all on one CD) about 1990 on the Torso Kino label CD 5001, distributed by EFA. It's a German CD & I suppose could still be available. It's by the music's composer, Edward Artemyev, & is pretty wonderful. The movies, on the other hand, are stunning. Cheers, Phil - - ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 18 Nov 1997 19:11:38 EST From: chasinthetrane@juno.com (James T Graves) Subject: Re: Wynton/Blues >>Well that's interesting. I remember reading an interview with Keith >>Jarrett in the New York Times Magazine where Keith challenged Wynton to a >>blues battle, claiming that "Wynton can't play the blues." >I don't think that just because I love Keith Jarrett that I have to love >(and hate) the same things that Keith does. I also don't see any problem >with having Zorn, Hemmingway, Braxton, Ornette, etc in the same record >collection as my more straight ahead disks. Just because I love much of >Zorn's work dosn't mean that I have to dislike Chris Potter, or Kenny >Garrett, etc. (or even Wynton) Not all music has to "move" me in the same >way, or at all. Okay, let me clarifiy a bit. I think you saw something in my post that really wasn't there. My CD collection is actually mostly straight ahead discs (albiet more "out" straight ahead) I only recently became interested in avant-garde. I am just as likely to listen to Jim Hall, Phish or Joni Mitchell as I am likely to listen to Zorn. My purpose in that post was to bring in more relevant material on the subject. I also do not subscribe to Keith Jarret's point of view, I simply thought it was interesting that he said Wynton "can't play the blues" when Wynton himself bashed anyone who can't play the blues. I don't take what Keith says to be the word of god, but I believe as a truly great jazz musician, his thoughts on the subject would be relevant. Sure he may be as much of an asshole as Wynton, (both these guys oppose using electric instruments for Christ sake!) but he did criticise a very mainstream jazz aspect of Wynton's playing, something I believe he would know something about. Jamie - - ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 18 Nov 1997 19:43:58 -0500 (EST) From: Christopher Hamilton Subject: Re: The big deal with _Naked City_ On Tue, 18 Nov 1997 flamerik@best.ms.philips.com wrote: > I think Grand Guignol uses the technique of juxtaposing various stylistic > elements as well, only the styles are not as easy to discern. I think so too (although I hadn't caught the connection to the sources you mention below). "Grand Guignol" works very well because the juxtaposed elements work together to create a unified feel. > In the liner > notes of Grand Guignol, a couple of bands/projects are thanked that appear > to have had a great influence on the sound sculpture that Grand Guignol is: > SPK, Whitehouse, P16.D4. I've heard of SPK, but I'm not familiar with any of these. Could you suggest some records where the link to "Grand Guignol" would be evident? Chris - - ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 18 Nov 1997 19:55:56 -0500 (EST) From: Christopher Hamilton Subject: Re: Ascension or Descension?/questions On Tue, 18 Nov 1997, Matthew Colonnese wrote: > What's the good Borbetomagus stuff? I have the PSF disk (forgot the name), > but feel about it the same way I do the Descention stuff. Should I just > give up? I really liked the Sauter/Dietrich/Moore album, so I feel they've > got some restraint tucked somewhere up their horns. No? The only Borbetomagus I've heard is _Sauter, Dietrich, Miller_ while it's certainly consistently noisy (think Ayler at his most extreme moment, but with electric guitar and no rhythm section), it's not really cluttered. I'm not sure if this was your problem with Descension, and the PSF record, or if I missed your point. Chris Hamilton - - ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 18 Nov 1997 22:26:36 -0500 From: Tom Pratt Subject: Leng T'Che With all of this talk of Naked City, I have to ask: Does anybody out there have a copy of LENG T'CHE that they would be willing to sell or know where I might be able to find a copy. Or has anyone seen a copy in their local record stores or used bins or what have you? I REALLY want a copy!!! I already own Torture Garden so I don't want to buy the Black Box. Thank you for any help!!!! listening to: Crispell/Brotzmann/Drake - Hyperion (Music & Arts) -Tom Pratt - - ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 19 Nov 1997 15:37:09 +1100 From: "Julian" Subject: Angel Song Anyone have this CD? I just got it today and I've got to say it's really brilliant. Four excellent jazz musicians (Kenny Wheeler, Lee Konitz, Dave Holland and Bill Frisell) playing some of the most expressive music I've heard in a while. If anyone's got any opinions, I'd like to hear them. Julian - - ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 18 Nov 1997 21:04:56 -0800 From: "Schwitterz" Subject: Re: Leng T'Che >listening to: Crispell/Brotzmann/Drake - Hyperion (Music & Arts) > > -Tom Pratt Tom, does she sound like Cecil Wallaby to you on that disk? I'm listening to "behind the night"...a quintet with Crispell, Hauser, and Leimgruber plus two more pianists (Kleeb and Plenar?)...beautiful music...I really enjoy Leimgruber and Hauser...they show up together everywhere...also enjoy them on McPhee's Linear B... sorry...can't let go of Leng T'Che... s~Z - - ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 18 Nov 1997 21:29:39 -0800 From: "Patrice L. Roussel" Subject: Re: Leng T'Che On Tue, 18 Nov 1997 21:04:56 -0800 "Schwitterz" wrote: > > > >listening to: Crispell/Brotzmann/Drake - Hyperion (Music & Arts) > > > > -Tom Pratt > > Tom, does she sound like Cecil Wallaby to you on that disk? > > I'm listening to "behind the night"...a quintet with Crispell, Hauser, and > Leimgruber plus two more pianists (Kleeb and Plenar?)...beautiful music...I > really enjoy Leimgruber and Hauser...they show up together everywhere...also > enjoy them on McPhee's Linear B... Wow! That's an awesome record!!! Leimgruber is fantastic on this record. Patrice. - - ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 19 Nov 1997 16:53:08 +1100 (EST) From: James Douglas Knox Subject: Re: "I'M GONNA MAKE YOU SUFFER!"--John Zorn at LA Concert On Tue, 18 Nov 1997, Douglas Tapia wrote: > >Is this the Zorn list or Gentlemen's Quarterly? > > >Spew forth arrogant graceless venom about everything you hate. > > would it help if it were UNINFORMED arrogant graceless venom filled with > half truths? Well, much of what you say is pretty fair comment. But the idea that comment (or ideas, or art) is only validated by grace and erudition - well, that's the viewpoint of a *xenophobic idiot*; albeit that its a view that still dominates contemporary culture (and higher education...) Historically, this has been the way to exclude any marginal person from access to the cultural apparatus, and etc Cheers, Jim - - ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 19 Nov 1997 17:01:34 +1100 (EST) From: James Douglas Knox Subject: Re: Somebody kick me! (was: some crazy-arse Jewish violin music...) On Mon, 17 Nov 1997, Steve Smith wrote: > James Douglas Knox wrote: > > > Dunno hardly anything about this stuff myself, but I heard something on > > the radio recently by a guy called (hope i got this right) Erwin > > Schulthoff. A german guy, he apparently hung with the Dadaists in Paris > > (the only other composer I know to spend any substantial amount of time in > > their company was Varese), was a communist, found his premature end in a > > concentration camp. In short: he was *good people* Lord help me; but I neglected to include Erik Satie in this number. Which reminds me of the story of the premiere of his Furniture Music - designed to function as background mush, but everyone is so smitten by just what gorgeous stuff it is they stop and listen. And Satie storms about the room, waving his arms - "Talk, you fools" (or something) Maybe this makes Zorn (in light of the *Albright incident*) the "evil" Anti-Satie? (snip)> > Again, we're not talking Ligeti or Kagel for pre-Zorn weirdness for the most > part, just a mighty satisfying and mostly forgotten composer who would > undoubtedly have amounted to much, much more. Thanks v much for the info - I'll chase up that Supraphon disc you mention. The stuff I heard on radio was very special - I can't normally stand the violin, but this work employed a radically extended vocabulary; and the guy sawing at a fever-pitch - mighty satisfying and non-conventional both. Cheers, Jim - - ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 19 Nov 1997 04:41:26 -0500 (EST) From: Dgasque@aol.com Subject: Re: Zorn's influences (Wynton content) In a message dated 97-11-17 14:39:29 EST, you (punkjazz@snet.net) write: << End of Rant. >> And it was a well deserved one. I must admit that since I am down here in the South, I don't hear about the jazz goings-on as many up NYC-ways. I am astounded how people such as Ornette Coleman, who have a resume' that dwarfs other musicians such as Mr. Marsalis- are still treated. Dosen't a musician's success in the history of jazz (or any other genre of music) count for anything, even in these days? =dgasque= - - ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 19 Nov 1997 04:41:24 -0500 (EST) From: Dgasque@aol.com Subject: Hamiet Bluiett (was Re: Hemphill) In a message dated 97-11-17 11:29:54 EST, you (bburton@CapAccess.org) write: << just about anything hemphill recorded is steeped in the (texas) blues. the cd reissue of his mid-70's album "reflections" (original title: "coon bidness") is an excellent example as well. also check out hamiet bluiett. >> I second the Bluiett. I picked up one a few months back called _Barbeque Band_ or something like that. A most unusual CD- steeped in gospel as much as jazz. =dgasque= - - ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 19 Nov 1997 05:31:09 -0500 From: pm.carey@utoronto.ca (Patrick Carey) Subject: Re: Borbetomagus ... matthew.colonnese@yale.edu (Matthew Colonnese) wrote: >What's the good Borbetomagus stuff? I have the PSF disk (forgot the name), >but feel about it the same way I do the Descention stuff. Should I just >give up? I really liked the Sauter/Dietrich/Moore album, so I feel they've >got some restraint tucked somewhere up their horns. No? Well, that's really gonna vary from person to person. I personally like all of their records, but that's just me. Some of my favorites would be the three collaborations with Voice Crack, "Fish That Sparkling Bubble" (Agaric/Uhlang), "Asbestos Shake" (Agaric/Uhlang/V) and the recent "Concerto For Cracked Everyday-Electronics & Chamber Orchestra" (Agaric/Uhlang/V), along with "Seven Reasons For Tears" (Purge/Agaric), "Sauter, Dietrich, Miller, Doherty" (Agaric), and the "Borbeto Jam" LP (Cadence Jazz). The Voice Crack collabs. blend the reedwork and guitar textures in with Moslang & Guhl's (& Remond on percussion & electronics on the latter two records) unique brand of hum and buzz, click, grind & pop, static electronics that they get from radios, oscillators, lightbulbs, placing objects in electric & magnetic fields, signal interference, along with all of their home-made gadgets and devices, which I won't even try to explain. I saw them at the Empty Bottle in Chicago some time ago, and I didn't get to see much of their set up, but they definitely got some amazing sounds from the huge table of gizmos they had set out in front of them. Anyway, these records aren't all out overload (to my ears), and I sense some restraint in S & D's reed playing. "Fish ..." also has Adam Nodleman on bass, and it might just be my favorite record of the three because that missing low end is there. "Seven Reasons For Tears" is S, D & M with Adam Nodleman again (during the brief period - late '87, early '88 that they had a bassist) and he's probably also why I like this record a bit more than the others. This album has it's noisy squalling highs, but I do sense some restraint and use of space on a few tracks. I will admit that I'm not great at describing this sort of music though ... oftentimes it's just about getting caught up in a trance-like state as the "noise" spirals around you. "Sauter, Dietrich, Miller, Doherty" is great for me because, just like the albums with VC, there is the addition of a backdrop of pulsing, bleeping & rumbling electronics (Doherty). This is some of their earliest material (from 1980) and I'd say it seems downright quiet in spots, compared to a lot of the later material. More extended drone and spacey moments IMO (on most, but not all of the tracks mind you), than all out skronk, but others may beg to differ. The "Borbeto Jam" LP is just pure fun, with all of the participants. In addition to Sauter, Dietrich & Miller, you've got Kondo on trumpet, Tristan Honsinger on cello & voice (!), Peter Kowald on bass, and Mr. Milo Fine himself on piano, clarinet, drums & whistle. If you want to avoid records that are out to punish you, I suggest you not pick up "Experience The Magic" ... ;-) - -Patrick - - ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 19 Nov 1997 08:21:31 -0800 From: Jason Tors Subject: Hamiet Bluiett question. Is Hamiet Bluiett equal to the Bluiett Barritone Sax Group that played at the Knitting Factory with James Carter? Any strong opinions on James Carter? I like the arrangment of a straight jazz line-up with the occasional cluck, squeal, roar from the the players. What does this whole "young lions" tag mean? **=B6* =86=905=F8N**T=F8=AE5*=B6=BA=BA jasontors - ->junior art director__usinteractive_212.685.3727 jtors@usinteractive.com (=B4=B4=AE=B4=B4) (=B4=B4=AE= =B4=B4) - - ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 19 Nov 1997 09:48:57 -0500 (EST) From: Brent Burton Subject: Re: Hamiet Bluiett (was Re: Hemphill) On Wed, 19 Nov 1997 Dgasque@aol.com wrote: > I second the Bluiett. I picked up one a few months back called _Barbeque > Band_ or something like that. A most unusual CD- steeped in gospel as much > as jazz. yeah, that group played in dc on july 4th along with randy weston and michael ray's band. they were pretty good, but definitely not enough playing from bluiett. his black saint albums are also recommendable. b - - ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 19 Nov 1997 14:24:32 UT From: peter_risser@cinfin.com Subject: Matthew Shipp I picked up Matthew Shipp's Zo at a used CD shop and am not really interested. If anyone's interested in it, let me know. Thanks, Peter - - ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 19 Nov 1997 14:29:39 UT From: peter_risser@cinfin.com Subject: Another question Probably last year, somebody (or somebodies) mentioned a book/disc package from Virgin Records that detailed the history of Ambient music and included early ambient pioneers like John Cage, Brian Eno, Tnagerine Dream, Kraftwerk and the like, along with newer stuff. Does this ring any bells? Can anyone refresh my memory? Thanks, Peter - - ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 19 Nov 1997 07:20:38 -0800 From: "Schwitterz" Subject: Re: Hamiet Bluiett (was Re: Hemphill) >yeah, that group played in dc on july 4th along with randy weston and >michael ray's band. they were pretty good, but definitely not enough >playing from bluiett. his black saint albums are also recommendable. > >b Watching him with World Saxophone Quartet remains a highlight for me...prancing back and forth, twinkling eyes bulging, grinning around that embouchure belching out blues-based rhythm lines... sZ - - ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 19 Nov 1997 09:47:31 -0600 From: jihad7@juno.com (Nathan M Earixson) Subject: Re: Borbetomagus ... On Wed, 19 Nov 1997 05:31:09 -0500 pm.carey@utoronto.ca (Patrick Carey) writes: >matthew.colonnese@yale.edu (Matthew Colonnese) wrote > Mr Milo Fine himself on piano, clarinet, drums & whistle. Ah ha! A personal favorite of mine. He's put out some very interesting records. I've heard 4-5 of the "Milo Fine Free-Jazz ensemble" albums, but most people I know haven't really heard of him. I guess he reminds (to some extent) of some of the Henry Cow albums I've heard. Incidentally, He's a local artist to me, and as mucisians that are "out there" aren't given a lot of support up here, I don't hear a lot about him. I'd be interested in anyone else's opinions... - - ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 19 Nov 1997 11:13:12 -0800 From: Jason Tors Subject: Frank Lowe Speaking of monster Sax players, Frank Lowe was a pioneer in tweeking the emotional voice of the sax. I recently picked up his album from the 70's called The Flam. I find it to be a hefty brain jiggle. What do others think of this player? Any other suggestions for great Frank Lowe albums? **=B6* =86=905=F8N**T=F8=AE5*=B6=BA=BA jasontors - ->junior art director__usinteractive_212.685.3727 jtors@usinteractive.com (=B4=B4=AE=B4=B4) (=B4=B4=AE= =B4=B4) - - ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 19 Nov 1997 08:29:25 -0800 From: "Schwitterz" Subject: Milo is Fine >> Mr Milo Fine himself on piano, clarinet, drums & whistle.> > >I'd be interested in anyone else's opinions... I haven't heard him play, but he is an excellent reviewer for CADENCE magazine. I always make sure I have everything on his end of the year Top Ten List. s~Z - - ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 19 Nov 1997 18:04:30 +0100 From: Stephane Vuilleumier Subject: Re: Frank Lowe This is the Zorn list I guess so... I like this one better than the flam: 001 - LOWE & BEHOLD: The Frank Lowe Orchestra 1/ Heart In Hand Or (How Vain I Am) (Lowe) 13:58 2/ A Hipster's Dream (Lowe) 4:24 3/ Lowe-commotion (Lowe) 7:58 4/ Heavy Drama (Lowe) 12:49 Recorded in October 1977, New York City Frank Lowe: tenor; Joseph Bowie: trombone; Lawrence "Butch" Morris: cornet; Arthur Williams: trumpet; Billy Bang: violin; Polly Bradfield: violin; Eugene Chadbourne: guitar; John Linberg: bass; Philip Wilson: drums, percus- sion; John Zorn: alto; Peter Kuhn: clarinet and bass clarinet. 1978 - Musicworks, Musicworks 3002 (LP) At 11:13 19.11.97 -0800, jasontors wrote: >Speaking of monster Sax players, Frank Lowe was a pioneer in tweeking the >emotional voice of the sax. I recently picked up his album from the 70's >called The Flam. I find it to be a hefty brain jiggle. >What do others think of this player? >Any other suggestions for great Frank Lowe albums? - - ------------------------------ End of Zorn List Digest V2 #167 ******************************* To unsubscribe from zorn-list-digest, send an email to "majordomo@xmission.com" with "unsubscribe zorn-list-digest" in the body of the message. For information on digests or retrieving files and old messages send "help" to the same address. Do not use quotes in your message. A non-digest (direct mail) version of this list is also available; to subscribe to that instead, replace all instances of "zorn-list-digest" in the commands above with "zorn-list". Back issues are available for anonymous FTP from ftp.xmission.com, in pub/lists/zorn-list/archive. These are organized by date.