From: Zorn List Digest Sent: Tuesday, November 25, 1997 9:01 PM To: zorn-list-digest@xmission.com Subject: Zorn List Digest V2 #178 Zorn List Digest Tuesday, November 25 1997 Volume 02 : Number 178 In this issue: - Re: Sharrock Re: Gainsbourg is jewish music??? Re: Gainsbourg is jewish music??? Re: Gainsbourg is jewish music??? Re: Ugly Beauty Re: Gainsbourg is jewish music??? Re: Sharrock Re: Gainsbourg is jewish music??? Re: Gainsbourg is jewish music??? Re: Gainsbourg is jewish music??? Re: Gainsbourg is jewish music??? Ikue Mori's 'Painted Desert' RE: Gainsbourg is Jewish music? Serge Gainsbourg: Great Jew re: winant/patton/moore variation Re: variation ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Date: Tue, 25 Nov 1997 13:21:14 -0500 From: Rich Williams Subject: Re: Sharrock Chris Barrett wrote: > > Ok, here's a question: > > I've been looking for some pre-Last Exit Sonny Sharrock. I recently > purchased Pharoh Sanders _Tauhid_ which is, I guess, Sharrock's first > recorded performance, but I was dissappointed with the overall album (not > that much Sonny for one thing). > > After checking out a few discographies, I've found out he was on a few > albums by Herbie Mann (whom I own nothing of, and know nothing about othe > than he plays flute) and _Super Nova_ by Wayne Shorter. Does anyone have > any opinions on these albums, or have any other recommendations? The Herbie Mann LP's are...well..Herbie Mann Lp's, which is to say that they are real middle of the road type fare. The best early Sharrock LP is his Solo Debut; Black Woman from 1969 on Vortex. It features Sonny,Dave Burrell on Piano,Milford Graves on Drums, Norris Jones(Sirone) on bass, and of course Linda Sharrock on vocals(if you've never heard Linda, you really should, shes every bit an original as her ex was, Think Yoko Ono's technique with Sara Vaughns pipes) Black Woman was one of the classics of 60's Avant jazz, and this LP has got to be some of the furthest "out" music ever recorded for a major label. Byard Lancasters Vortex Lp(cant remember the name right now) also features Sonny, and is notable for its inclusion of an early, differently titled version of 'Many Mansions" from Ask The Ages. Unfortunatly, none of the Vortex discs AFAIK, have ever been released on CD. Sonny also made Monkey Pockie Boo for Karakos' BYG/Actuel label, this is a very out recording, but the french pick-up band cant compare with Sirone/Graves. There are a couple more you might want to look for while you're in the used vinyl store, The Green Line; on StoryVille, co-billed to Sharrock, Steve Marcus, Miroslav vitous , and Daniel Hunter, though it sounds to me like a Herbie Mann record without Herbie. FWIW, Nicky Skopeletis loves it. Don Cherrys Eternal Rythym has a real nice(but again too short) Sharrock showcase, as does a real obscure self titled LP by the band Brute Force(which featured Sonny's cousins, Ted & Richard Daniel, as well as Stan Strickland!) on Embryo. Sonny recorded very little during the 70's except for his Paradise LP for Atlantic which suffered from its Phil Ramone production job and its flirtation with fuzak. After Paradise, Sonny virtually quit the music business, until Material's Memory Serves disc. Rich - - ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 25 Nov 1997 13:09:08 -0500 (EST) From: Christopher Hamilton Subject: Re: Gainsbourg is jewish music??? On Tue, 25 Nov 1997, Corey Marc Fogel wrote: > yes.....it is absolutely ridiculous. Calling each tribute "Great Jewish > Music" seems like a highly unnecessary extension of Zorn's little theory > expressed in the liner notes that great Jewish people who make music must > make "great jewish music". Well, it's surely an intentionally provocative extension. Presumably part of the point is to jar people into rethinking their notion of Jewish culture/identity. > I haven't exactly analyzed the harmonic and > melodic structure of every or even any Bacharach or Gainsbourg song, but > it seems pretty obvious to my ear that most relatively accessible pop music > has never, and will never express the dark sour quality that most actually- > Jewish music does. Case in point: Why is that other music "actually" Jewish, when other music made by Jewish musicians isn't? What does it mean to be "actually" Jewish? I don't have an answer in mind for these questions, and, as a goy, I don't feel very qualified to answer them, but they're probably worth problematizing. Chris Hamilton - - ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 25 Nov 1997 11:40:27 -0700 (MST) From: Corey Marc Fogel Subject: Re: Gainsbourg is jewish music??? On Tue, 25 Nov 1997, Joseph Zitt wrote: > > it seems pretty obvious to my ear that most relatively accessible pop music > > has never, and will never express the dark sour quality that most actually- > > Jewish music does. > > "dark sour quality" ?! is that a problem? perhaps not always dark....but usually sour. key signatures, etc. i didnt say it was the only quality. - - ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 25 Nov 1997 12:55:19 -0600 (CST) From: Joseph Zitt Subject: Re: Gainsbourg is jewish music??? On Tue, 25 Nov 1997, Corey Marc Fogel wrote: > > > On Tue, 25 Nov 1997, Joseph Zitt wrote: > > > "dark sour quality" ?! > > is that a problem? > perhaps not always dark....but usually sour. key signatures, etc. > i didnt say it was the only quality. "sour"? I must say that, after my training in Jewish music, including the Cantorial program at Yeshiva University, that I don't have a clue what you mean by the term. - - ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 25 Nov 1997 16:01:58 -0500 From: Matthew Ross Davis Subject: Re: Ugly Beauty The article was originally published in Postmodern Culture. It is available at http://jefferson.village.virginia.edu/pmc/text-only/issue.195/mcneilly.195 At 8:42 PM -0500 11/24/97, Tom Pratt wrote: >Does anybody have the Kevin McNeilly article called "Ugly Beauty: John >Zorn and the Politics of Postmodern Music"? I followed the links at WNUR >and I found that I needed special subscription and password to access >this article. Could someone who has it please forward it to me privately >(or to the list if you feel it's neccesary)? Thank You! > > -Tom Pratt > >- | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | m-a-t-t-h-e-w r-o-s-s d-a-v-i-s university of maryland http://www.artswire.org/mrd school of music | S | O | H | C | 4 | # | 3 | 6 | 5 | | | 7 | 9 | C | B | 6 | 5 | 0 | - - ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 25 Nov 1997 22:45:47 +0100 From: Nuno BARREIRO Subject: Re: Gainsbourg is jewish music??? > Patrice wrote: > > You can't deny that Zorn is using this classification "Great Jewish > Composers" for some personal motives (not 100% artistic). Does it mean > that because he (Zorn) is Jew, he is entitled to talk for all of them? > Rallying people under his banner without asking them (specially if they > are dead), is not a moot point to me, specially when the person in question > (SG) worked so hard to keep it part of his private life. That is precisely what I was thinking about (merci Patrice). SG fought for many causes (in his own particular way) but never for this one specially. When asked about its roots he would mention Slavic culture much more than the Jewish one. But he wasn't really trying to hide his jewishness. During the war he was one of the first to use the yellow David star (being provocative, as usual). > I would say that because SG was very careful in not putting his jewishness > on the table, there is a legitimate concern that he might not have liked > his case to be used for this crusade. From the little I know about him (and > Nuno can confirm), he never wanted his jewishness to interfere with his > carreer. I wouldn't put it this way. I'd rather say that Gainsbourg, as soon as the war was finished, simply ignored the fact of being jewish. He didn't put it in front, but he didn't particulary hide it. What I think is the most important is that SG was very open-minded and tolerant, and would have hated to be filed under any label (amongst which "Jewish Composer"). It would have been too narrow for him. > Anyway, who knows what SG would have said of this project. I am very > happy that Zorn did it and the point discussed above does not prevent me > from sleeping. My initial concerns about the project was that the main > point in his art (the words) might be lost. I am surprised how well the > project ended up. I think that this project would, musically, really excite SG. He was always trying to go further (not everytime in the good direction, but quite often). I play his music for many years and still am surprised by his incredible creativity. He put in his music as many influences as possible, and this tribute goes clearly in that direction. As for the politics I have no metaphysical ability to check what his opinion would be. But my opinion is that JZ is making some misplaced political game on behalf of SG, and, given the high quality of the music itself, there was no need for that! Nuno - - ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 25 Nov 1997 18:35:32 -0800 From: Brian Olewnick Subject: Re: Sharrock allen huotari wrote: > > If you can find it, ETERNAL RHYTHM by Don Cherry features Sonny Sharrock and > was recorded in Nov. 1968 > > I don't know if this was ever released on cd, the copy I have is an lp (BASF > 20680) It hasn't been released on disc, but damn sure should be. > > For the record (forgive the pun) this lp also includes Joachim Kuhn, Karl > Berger, Arild Andersen, Albert Mangelsdorff, and Eje Thelin > > Would I recommend it ? hmmm...from a historical perspective, certainly (for > the careers of the musicians mentioned above, not necessarily on it's place in > the history of improvised music) I'd have to disagree. I have no way of knowing how influential it may have been or not on subsequent musicians, but 'Eternal Rhythm' always struck me as one of the first fully successful blends of free improv and various world musics, here gamelan and, to a degree, Indian. > > And while I cherish this lp, when one considers the nature of this music, I'm > not really sure if my musical recommendation is a guarantee that anyone > reading this would enjoy it > > On that note perhaps another zorn-lister has heard this and can make an > illuminating and intelligent comment ? > > ajh This is an all-time fave of mine and, among other things, a fine example of early Sharrock. For my bucks, the best example of Cherry's world-embracing musical philosphy, better even than 'Relativity Suite'. Plus some killing work by Karl Berger. If you can locate it, do not hesitate! Brian O. - - ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 25 Nov 1997 19:19:49 -0500 From: "ALAN E. KAYSER" Subject: Re: Gainsbourg is jewish music??? Patrice L. Roussel wrote: > What is "Seinfeld"? I have never heard of that word. > I think this discussion is healthy, and maybe exactly what > > JZ has in mind. > > Great! Happy to hear you saying that. > > Patrice. Seinfeld is a highly rated TV comedy, featuring the comedian Jerry Seinfeld. His Jewishness is not overt on the show. He just happens to be Jewish, the comedy has little or no ethnic content. I'm glad we can have this discussion and at least respect each other's opinion. I do agree with you that in putting the word "Jewish" in the title the work becomes something other than purely music. Just as the Masada series becomes something else when it has Hebrew titles. Masada of course is clearly more "Jewish" music than is the SG, or the Bacharach for that matter. I, for one, certainly hope that JZ continues along these lines. These recordings are quite unique, and are introducing JZ fans to new music. Alan - - ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 25 Nov 1997 20:17:58 -0500 (EST) From: Jeff Lawrence Schwartz Subject: Re: Gainsbourg is jewish music??? Seems to me that the obvious antecedent of "Great Jewish Music" is the AACM's motto "Great Black Music: Ancient to the Future" which, judging from the output of AACM members, includes a truly vast amount of human sonic creativity. It seems likely to me that Zorn is making several points (not all of which I'm comfortable with) about cultural Zionism and Black cultural nationalism by putting them next to each other... Anyone want to try to run with that? - - ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 26 Nov 1997 12:29:37 +1100 From: "Julian" Subject: Re: Gainsbourg is jewish music??? Zorn has offered a title, and already we have seen many different interpretations of it, and possible reasons for the title. I think the idea is that you can think whatever you want, really there shouldn't be so much discussion. - - ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 25 Nov 1997 18:44:24 -0700 (MST) From: Corey Marc Fogel Subject: Re: Gainsbourg is jewish music??? On Tue, 25 Nov 1997, Joseph Zitt wrote: > > > "dark sour quality" ?! > > > > is that a problem? > > perhaps not always dark....but usually sour. key signatures, etc. > > i didnt say it was the only quality. > > "sour"? I must say that, after my training in Jewish music, including the > Cantorial program at Yeshiva University, that I don't have a clue what > you mean by the term. that's too bad - - ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 25 Nov 1997 21:54:58 -0800 From: Brian Olewnick Subject: Ikue Mori's 'Painted Desert' I recently picked up Ikue Mori's 'Painted Desert', which I enjoy quite a bit. A question arose, however (forgive me if this subject has been broached before): Several of the tracks, notably 'Mojave' and 'El Dorado' would not sound at all out of place on a JZ soundtrack release. I'm curious if anyone knows whether this is JZ's influence on Mori's compositional sense, the reverse or, my guess, Ribot and Quine being given fairly free rein on the construction of the songs. If the latter is true, it implies that they also get that freedom from JZ, which I wouldn't have thought was the case; I generally figured he kept fairly tight control over his 'written' pieces--perhaps they weren't as 'written' as I thought. Not a matter of great importance; I just like to anally keep it straight in my head who should get credit for what...to the extent possible. PS. Re: 'Great Jewish Music'--I always assumed it was Zorn's winking reference to the AACM motto. Brian O. - - ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 25 Nov 1997 22:27:13 EST From: chasinthetrane@juno.com (James T Graves) Subject: RE: Gainsbourg is Jewish music? I recently attended a lecture by Kaier Curtin, a gay historian who wrote a history of gays in American and English theatre. He said that his main object in writing the book was because he had never heard of any sort of history being done of "his people" He thought that stories of the triumphs and trials of past gays would give gays a history and a sense of worth. Zorn's Great Jewish Music series seems to be doing the same thing. Although the Jews obviously have a much better documented history than gays, Zorn's series does put an interesting twist on these songwriters. He identifies the Jews as a tribe in his liner notes for the Bacharach tribute, and uses this ethnic identification to point out that many acclaimed and popular songwriters like Beck, Bacharach and Irving Berlin were in fact Jewish. He seems to be using them as modern examples of Jewish success to inspire the Jews. Anti-semitism is still very much of a problem, it may not be as overt as racism, but it does exist. Zorn's rallying cry for Jewish identity by giving examples of success doesn't seem silly to me, I think its great to know that these songwriters were Jewish. Oh yeah, and the tribute covers are good too. Jamie - - ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 25 Nov 1997 19:53:31 -0800 From: Ethan Danberry Subject: Serge Gainsbourg: Great Jew I always refer to the SG tribute album as, Serge Gainsbourg: Great Jew, initially as a half-joke, half-abbreviation, but it seems to be more accurate. Gainsbourg's music is not culturally Jewish. I doubt that anyone will argue with that. Neither is Burt Bacharach's (I refer to his tribute as BB: Great Jew, as well). They may have subtle traces of Jewishness, but their music is not evolved from "Jewish" culture in the way that Klezmer, for example, is. Perhaps it's just a matter of semantics, but calling it "Jewish Music" seems to be an innacuuracy. Zorn seemingly attibutes the greatness of SG's music to Jewishness, but I think that SG's Jewishness was IRRELEVANT to his music. Maybe Zorn, deliberately a fucker as always, intended this, but that's just speculation. In any case, I think Nuno's question is a legitimate topic for conversation and most responses to it were logical except the dumb one that referred to it as "dumb." What kind of asshole attacks someone's question like that, unprovoked? Your question wasn't dumb, Nuno. I think someone just misunderstood it. I look forward to hearing more Great Jews' Music being reinterpretted and demented by my favorite Tzadik artists. I especially hope for some Sammy Davis Jr: Great Jew, maybe with a Mike Patton version of Begin the Beguine....except I guess maybe Sammy didn't write all those songs he did...oh well, maybe that won't stop Zorn from declaring it Great Jewish Music anyway. ;) - - ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 25 Nov 1997 23:06:36 -0500 From: Pierre Toussaint Subject: re: winant/patton/moore I think the CD is worth it. It sounds nothing like sonic youth (the only album close to it would be sonic death, but still...). It's a live recording with good sound from last summers 'festival de musique actuelle de Victoriaville' in Quebec. It is found on the victo label. If you live in the states, I know that ponk records distributes their CD's. http://cube.ice.net/~ponk/victo.htm They, victo that is, also includes artists like Chadbourne, Kaiser and Rene Lussier. It's a great label. Have you heard the stuff on the ambiances magnetique label also frome Quebec. Great music for the ears... - - ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 25 Nov 1997 22:09:13 -0600 (CST) From: y9d62@TTACS.TTU.EDU Subject: variation Does anyone know any details about Zorn's variations for the NY Phil thing in January? Has anyone come close to hearing this? - - ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 25 Nov 1997 23:59:41 -0500 From: Steve Smith Subject: Re: variation y9d62@ttacs1.ttu.edu wrote: > Does anyone know any details about Zorn's variations for the NY Phil thing > in January? Has anyone come close to hearing this? Not meaning to come off like a smartass, but as it's a world premiere, I'd guess it's unlikely anybody's heard anything at this point... I do notice, however, that there's an open rehearsal at 9:45 a.m. on January 22, the day of the first performance, and given the Phil's presumed familiarity with the idioms of the other composers on the bill, how much you want to bet the rehearsal really focuses on the Zorn piece? Now that might be good for some off-color conversation, no? Might be as entertaining as the concert itself... Steve Smith ssmith36@sprynet.com - - ------------------------------ End of Zorn List Digest V2 #178 ******************************* To unsubscribe from zorn-list-digest, send an email to "majordomo@xmission.com" with "unsubscribe zorn-list-digest" in the body of the message. For information on digests or retrieving files and old messages send "help" to the same address. Do not use quotes in your message. A non-digest (direct mail) version of this list is also available; to subscribe to that instead, replace all instances of "zorn-list-digest" in the commands above with "zorn-list". Back issues are available for anonymous FTP from ftp.xmission.com, in pub/lists/zorn-list/archive. These are organized by date.