From: Zorn List Digest Sent: Wednesday, November 26, 1997 4:13 PM To: zorn-list-digest@xmission.com Subject: Zorn List Digest V2 #179 Zorn List Digest Wednesday, November 26 1997 Volume 02 : Number 179 In this issue: - Re: Gainsbourg is jewish music??? Re: Gainsbourg is jewish music??? Re: Gainsbourg is jewish music??? Re:Ikue Mori's 'Painted Desert' Re: The classic guide to marketing strategy (was: Gainsbourg???) Nyman Thieves Quartet Zorn List Digest V2 #178 Zorn a control freak? Jewish Music / Black Music (was: Serge Gainsbour...) Re: Gainsbourg is jewish music??? Re: Ikue Mori's 'Painted Desert' Re: Nyman Great Jewish Music Harry Smith again Re: Gainsbourg is jewish music??? Re: Great Black Music Marc Ribot at KF Re: Gainsbourg is jewish music... Bass Army Re: Gainsbourg is jewish music??? ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Date: Wed, 26 Nov 1997 00:37:11 -0500 (EST) From: Christopher Hamilton Subject: Re: Gainsbourg is jewish music??? On Wed, 26 Nov 1997, Julian wrote: > Zorn has offered a title, and already we have seen many different > interpretations of it, and possible reasons for the title. I think the idea > is that you can think whatever you want, really there shouldn't be so much > discussion. If it's intentionally left open to interpretation, wouldn't refusing to discuss it be the only way to misinterpret it? Chris Hamilton - - ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 26 Nov 1997 00:59:11 -0500 (EST) From: Christopher Hamilton Subject: Re: Gainsbourg is jewish music??? On Tue, 25 Nov 1997, Jeff Lawrence Schwartz wrote: > It seems likely to me that Zorn is making several points > (not all of which I'm comfortable with) about cultural Zionism and Black > cultural nationalism by putting them next to each other... > Anyone want to try to run with that? Well, on one hand, Zorn's version of Cultural Zionism, like the AACM's version Black cultural nationalism, seems very open to influence from and collaboration with other ethnicities. In this sense, Zorn's Zionism seems to be set up in opposition to narrower versions of Zionism, both in his insistence on going beyond "conservative preservation" (Gershom Scholem) and his citation of Asher Ginzberg's call for a movement "in which all Jews everywhere could find pride and meaning". (I may be reading too much into this, but I've often imagined that the word 'everywhere' here is meant as a contrast to constructions of Jewish identity which bind it closely to the modern state of Israel.) Nothing there bothers me, but it's potentially controversial. On the other hand, I am slightly disturbed by Zorn's references in the liners to the Gainsbourg CD to Gainsbourg's "Jewish sense of humor" and the inescapability of Jewishness. There's a tension between this apparent essentialism and the above commitment to openness. Amiri Baraka's discussion of black music as an "ever-changing same" might be a good comparison. There's a danger of this sort of thinking becoming a cage. Witness the surprisingly short walk from Baraka to Stanley Crouch. Is this the sort of thing that makes you uncomfortable? Chris Hamilton - - ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 26 Nov 1997 17:27:37 +1100 From: "Julian" Subject: Re: Gainsbourg is jewish music??? > If it's intentionally left open to interpretation, wouldn't refusing to > discuss it be the only way to misinterpret it? No I mean interpret it however you like. - - ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 25 Nov 1997 22:57:52 -0800 From: Ethan Danberry Subject: Re:Ikue Mori's 'Painted Desert' I have Ikue Mori's Painted Desert, and I also have John Zorn's Filmworks VI, the first part of which, "Anton, Mailman" (tracks 1-4), bears many similarities to Painted Desert, in style at least. Ribot is involved in both projects. I would hesitate to draw any conclusions about this, but Painted Desert was recorded more than two years before Filmworks VI. Maybe I'm just hearing Ribot's style in each and equating the similarities of his work in each project with similarities between projects, but tracks #3 and especially #4 could easily have been on Painted Desert. Furthermore, track #9 on FVI, also features Ribot AND Ikue Mori, and also sounds remarkably similar. I don't think that any of Ikue Mori's solo works sound like Painted Desert nearly so much as these Filmworks VI tracks do. Maybe this will lead you to the knowledge you seek, or confirmation of your theory of free reign. I think you would be correct in your theory regarding Zorn giving free reign to his lil guitar boys, Robert and Marc, as well as other musicians. No doubt, Ikue Mori would do the same. Still, I don't think that Quine and Ribot always sound that way, nor do they lend that sound to every project they join. I think the entire stall of Tzadik musicians, or Zornapostles(Don't read into that designation to deeply; it's a joke), all feed of of one another's ideas to such an extent that they all influence one another's work very much. The exact influences and who influences whom seem to blur, and there is a great deal of influencers being influenced by their influencees, much like the interaction within family trees in the midwest. I'm sure I've confused you more than I've helped, as I believe I may have confused myself in the process of writing this. Oh well. - - ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 26 Nov 1997 18:56:42 +1100 (EST) From: James Douglas Knox Subject: Re: The classic guide to marketing strategy (was: Gainsbourg???) On Tue, 25 Nov 1997, Nuno BARREIRO wrote: > For those of you who know Gainsbourg for some time: don't you think > that it's absolutely RIDICULOUS to refer to his music as "Jewish > Music"? If he was alive he would never allow the CD to come out > with such a title... doens't fit with anything in his universe > (musical, personal, political, religious, etc...). > Unnh, yeah; I think its a little chauvinistic (in the best, original- French, meaning of that word) for Zorn to qualify a musician in this way. Nothing to get upset about, tho'; its a marketing strategy, plain and simple - and one that Zorn presumably hopes to profit from in more than one way (something about "guilt by association", y'know?) But who knows? Maybe when Zorn is dead, his work will be re-released in the series: epater les bourgeousie Music. (with apologies to anyone who really knows French) - - ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 26 Nov 1997 20:07:28 +1100 From: "Julian" Subject: Nyman While people are talking about this guy, what does everyone think of his soundtrack work? Incidentally, is there any link between him and Zorn apart from that there are some mild similarities in their output? - - ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 26 Nov 1997 11:27:53 +0100 From: Yves Dewulf Subject: Thieves Quartet Message for people able to receive Belgium television: Tonight,La Une is broadcasting the Thieves Quartet with music of JZ(filmworks III, with the Masada-quartet). (it will be the french version of the movie, I'm afraid) YVes - - ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 26 Nov 97 06:43:57 -0500 From: Glenn_Lea@avid.com Subject: Zorn List Digest V2 #178 > > If you can find it, ETERNAL RHYTHM by Don Cherry features Sonny Sharrock and > > was recorded in Nov. 1968 > > > > I don't know if this was ever released on cd, the copy I have is an lp (BASF > > 20680) > > It hasn't been released on disc, but damn sure should be. I believe this WAS released on CD about a year ago, in Europe only, on Verve (!) as a double CD with additional material. "The Wire" was giving it away as a freebie to new subscribers, even. But I can't find any reference to it on the Verve website. Can anyone help here? - - ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 26 Nov 1997 13:45:10 +0100 From: Friedrich Feger Subject: Zorn a control freak? On Monday I talked with Herb Robertson, and he mentioned that Zorn wouldn't leave too much decisions to the musicians, and he disliked it. He said that Zorn chooses people to play with him who, harshly formulated, do what he says. Is that really so? Fritz. - - ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 26 Nov 1997 13:40:06 +0100 From: Friedrich Feger Subject: Jewish Music / Black Music (was: Serge Gainsbour...) Okay, by putting Serge Gainsbourg into a series of "Great Jewish Music", Zorn wants to promote Jewish self-confidence, and that's of course an honourable end. But what makes it problematic to me is the implied connection between racial or religious affiliation and the production of art. I don't like this deterministic conclusion (Chris called it "inescapability") from the former to the latter and believe that people can create very independently from certain parts of their heritage (which means that I would like to differentiate between contingent heritage and "roots", which are meaningful for the work). Examples are white people playing Black Music, and, even more, gay people in art and science. In most cases it is absolutely useless to connect their work with their beeing gay or of this and that race. It is in principle an appropriate artistic tool to overdraw provocatively, but to to draw wrong connections between something, for example Gainsbourg and Jewish MUSIC, is too meager IMHO. To me, this raises another question: has an artist to be politically correct, or, put otherwise and more meaningful, morally correct in every detail of his work, leaving aside the overall message? I don't think so... Fritz. - - ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 26 Nov 1997 08:17:12 -0600 From: dmcrump@sunset.backbone.olemiss.edu (Rusty Crump) Subject: Re: Gainsbourg is jewish music??? >Zorn has offered a title, and already we have seen many different >interpretations of it, and possible reasons for the title. I think the idea >is that you can think whatever you want, really there shouldn't be so much >discussion. > > >- No, no, no, no, no! You were doing fine until you got to that last clause. Discussion is GOOD. Dialectic is GOOD. Colloquy is GOOD. Intelligent debate is GOOD. These are all GOOD things. "really there shouldn't be so much discussion" is NOT GOOD. Rusty Crump Oxford, Mississippi - - ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 26 Nov 1997 08:18:52 -0800 From: "Patrice L. Roussel" Subject: Re: Ikue Mori's 'Painted Desert' On Tue, 25 Nov 1997 21:54:58 -0800 Brian Olewnick wrote: > > I recently picked up Ikue Mori's 'Painted Desert', which I enjoy quite a > bit. A question arose, however (forgive me if this subject has been > broached before): > > Several of the tracks, notably 'Mojave' and 'El Dorado' would not sound > at all out of place on a JZ soundtrack release. I'm curious if anyone > knows whether this is JZ's influence on Mori's compositional sense, the > reverse or, my guess, Ribot and Quine being given fairly free rein on > the construction of the songs. If the latter is true, it implies that > they also get that freedom from JZ, which I wouldn't have thought was > the case; I generally figured he kept fairly tight control over his > 'written' pieces--perhaps they weren't as 'written' as I thought. Not an exact answer to your question... In a interview in a French magazine, Ikue Mori said that PAINTED DESERT was not really her project. It started as, but Quine and Ribot ended up to control it more or less totally. For that reason, she was reluctant to say anything about it. Patrice. - - ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 26 Nov 1997 08:40:48 -0800 From: "Patrice L. Roussel" Subject: Re: Nyman On Wed, 26 Nov 1997 20:07:28 +1100 "Julian" wrote: > > While people are talking about this guy, what does everyone think of his > soundtrack work? Incidentally, is there any link between him and Zorn apart > from that there are some mild similarities in their output? Similarities? As much as a one-dimension figure can be to a three-dimension one... Patrice. - - ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 26 Nov 1997 16:50:45 UT From: peter_risser@cinfin.com Subject: Great Jewish Music I always figured it was supposed to be ironic. Like, hey, here's some great JEWISH music, but, of course, it's just everyday great pop music. The idea being, well, Jewish or not Jewish, it doesn't make any difference. So, when he specifically identifies them as being Jewish, as if it made a difference, it seems silly and maybe casts into doubt the whole idea of separating people in any way. I can't speak for the liner notes, but this is what I always thought. It'd be like calling a jazz series, Anthony Braxton: Great Black Music, Sun Ra: Great Black Music, John Coltrane: Great Black Music, Cecil Taylor: Great Black Music, etc. when obviously, blackness has nothing to do with it, and to even insinuate it does points out the ridiculousness of the whole idea of separating people in the first place. I suppose he picked Jewish because he himself is Jewish and he does have that Jewish identity thing going with Tzadik. So. Then, arguements over irony are even more ironic, I think, and bring the point home more than ever. Either that or he's a maniacal Zionist outing Jewish composers. Whatever. Although I do think that the Maniacal Zionists would be a good name for a band. - -- Peter - - ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 26 Nov 1997 09:52:34 -0800 From: Herb Levy Subject: Harry Smith again Folks with an interest in Harry Smith either before or due to the recent discussion of his work here, might be interested in an article on his films by J Hoberman in the current issue of the magazine Film Comment. There's also a reference to a book on Smith by Hoberman, which I haven't seen yet Herb Levy herb@eskimo.com - - ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 26 Nov 1997 14:45:12 -0500 (EST) From: jnschust@sas.upenn.edu (Joshua N Schuster) Subject: Re: Gainsbourg is jewish music??? Why isn't Gainsbourg's work great jewish music? It doesn't have to be klezmer to be jewish. That is one of the interesting things about Zorn's Tzadik section "Radical Jewish Culture". There is plenty there that is not Klezmer based, and I'd still consider it great jewish music. Zorn is always provocative in not just mixing catagories but expanding them. What it means to be jewish and to play specifically jewish music, whatever that might mean, is certainly not limited to just one genre. An interesting idea though would be: what if someone else had the idea of "Great Jewish Music" and did Zorn tunes from Naked City or Painkiller albums, claiming that too as jewish music? The writer Edmond Jabes, in the same book of interviews that Zorn tends to quote from, talks about these issues. Jabes calls himself a Jew and a writer, but not a Jewish writer. He does this mostly so people will not reduce his work to a catagory and a simple theme. It's not so simple that Zorn just parades the work of successful Jews in a call for a Jewish cultural zionism. There is more at stake, there is more danger, than just what is obviously "Great Jewish Music". The question of identity, Jewish or whatever, is much more complicated, and including Gainsbourg in that tradition, a tradition being invented as we speak, helps to expand the issue. - -Joshua Schuster - - ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 26 Nov 1997 13:49:45 -0700 From: john shiurba Subject: Re: Great Black Music peter risser: > It'd be like calling a jazz series, Anthony Braxton: Great Black Music, Sun Ra: > Great Black Music, John Coltrane: Great Black Music, Cecil Taylor: Great Black > Music, etc. when obviously, blackness has nothing to do with it, and to even > insinuate it does points out the ridiculousness of the whole idea of separating > people in the first place. while i agree that the idea of separating people has dubious merits, you can't escape the fact that it exists in this society. and it has been stated in no uncertain terms, by some of the artists that you reference above that their music is indeed formed from their experience as a _black_ person/musician, and that _blackness_ has everything to do with it. - -- shiurba@sfo.com http://www.sfo.com/~shiurba - - ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 26 Nov 1997 15:37:44 From: Jesse Simon Subject: Marc Ribot at KF On the Tzadik website there is mention of a series of concerts by Marc Ribot and his new band (the prosthetic cubans?) at the Knitting Factory. I believe the dates are december 4,5,6 and 7. However on the Knitting Factory page there is no mention of these concerts. I was wondering if any NYC people on this list could tell me if Ribot will in fact be playing because I'm going to be in town then and would really like to see what this new band is all about. Thanks, Jesse - - ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 26 Nov 1997 15:33:43 From: Jesse Simon Subject: Re: Gainsbourg is jewish music... My e-mail has been down for a few days so I regret that I haven't been able to participate in most of the "Great Jewish Music" thread. I've read it all and almost all of the comments were insightful and well reasoned (exactly why I signed up to this list in the first place) However I figured I would offer this thought. Part of the success of the series is that it works off the disparity between cultural affiliation and public perception. Also, there is an incredible difference between the Jewish culture and the Jewish religion. Saying that Gainsbourg was Jewish implies certain religious things, but saying that his music was Jewish is a cultural distinction which may or may not apply. I think that by using the word Jewish to describe the music of Gainsbourg, Zorn is asking us to examine the music in a different context. Certainly that's what I did with the Bacharach album. It started me thinking "what is it that makes this music especially Jewish". In the end I couldn't really think of anything other than the composer's religious orientation. There are times when calling Bacharach's music "Great Jewish Music" seems as absurd as calling the Rolling Stones "Great Christian Music". I start to wonder: "Do I write Jewish music?" or "Do I write Jewish stories?". The series has certainly got me thinking about the unwritten (and unexplored) role that culture and religion has in the creation of art. The upshot of all this is that Jewish or not, I'm interested in finding more out about Serge Gainsbourg and if anyone could direct me to some informative sources, I'd be much obbliged. Jesse - - ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 26 Nov 1997 18:27:14 -0500 From: Tom Pratt Subject: Bass Army Does anyone know if Bass Army (w/Kato Hideki) has any other albums out besides 'Karada Wa Oto Dasu Mono'???? Thanks. -Tom Pratt - - ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 27 Nov 1997 11:11:56 +1100 From: "Julian" Subject: Re: Gainsbourg is jewish music??? > Why isn't Gainsbourg's work great jewish music? It doesn't have to be > klezmer to be jewish. That is one of the interesting things about Zorn's > Tzadik section "Radical Jewish Culture". There is plenty there that is > not Klezmer based, and I'd still consider it great jewish music. Zorn is > always provocative in not just mixing catagories but expanding them. > What it means to be jewish and to play specifically jewish music, whatever > that might mean, is certainly not limited to just one genre. An > interesting idea though would be: what if someone else had the idea of > "Great Jewish Music" and did Zorn tunes from Naked City or Painkiller > albums, claiming that too as jewish music? You realise that it'll probably be some of the musicians on this list who do end up doing such a thing. - - ------------------------------ End of Zorn List Digest V2 #179 ******************************* To unsubscribe from zorn-list-digest, send an email to "majordomo@xmission.com" with "unsubscribe zorn-list-digest" in the body of the message. For information on digests or retrieving files and old messages send "help" to the same address. Do not use quotes in your message. 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