From: Zorn List Digest Sent: Tuesday, December 02, 1997 8:18 AM To: zorn-list-digest@xmission.com Subject: Zorn List Digest V2 #182 Zorn List Digest Tuesday, December 2 1997 Volume 02 : Number 182 In this issue: - Re: cobra re: re: Nyman Eternal Return Re: cobra Re: Cobra Signals Re: Zorn a control freak? Re: Zorn a control freak? Re: Zorn a control freak? Re: Zorn a control freak? Re: Nyman 4Remi only req for review of Moorefield Re: Down Home . . . Butch Morris Box Re: Cobra Signals Niacin CD FS Re: Down Home . . . Re: Butch Morris Box Re: Down Home . . . ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Date: Mon, 1 Dec 1997 08:17:24 -0500 (EST) From: "k. drudge" Subject: Re: cobra > > Also, any recommended recordings other than that double disc from circa > Tokyo Operations 94 (84?) disc a coupla times, but I've been unsure as to > my enjoyment. And after Nani Nani and Filmworks VII, I've been even more in my opinion, this disc beats the hatart CD. intense & coherent. keldon - - ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 01 Dec 1997 09:18:25 -0500 From: Bob Kowalski Subject: re: re: Nyman An seemingly frustrated Julian wrote... Date: Sat, 29 Nov 1997 16:41:39 +1100 From: "Julian" Subject: Re: Nyman While people are talking about this guy, what does everyone think of his soundtrack work? Incidentally, is there any link between him and Zorn apart from that there are some mild similarities in their output? > > I don't see a single similarity between two... > Since nobody else actually responded...... Ok, I think I proved my point. I got 2 responses like this, so I must ask (more forcefully this time) why the hell was everyone talking about him when there is no link between him and the man who this list is meant to be about? Just a note, when I said "mild similarities" I meant that both have written for soundtracks as well as stand-alone work, both are male, both are human beings, etc. If these aren't mild similarities then I don't know what are. Now I would understand your response if I had actually written "obvious, fucking huge similarities". ..don't expect apologies - I mentioned Nyman initially because I am a fan of both his and Zorn's work and was curious if others shared in such diverse tastes. Gathering from feedback there are more than a few out there who enjoy at least some of Nyman's work - but hey...I'll save it for a different listserv and let you put your blinders back on. cheers Bob@Somerville - - ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 1 Dec 1997 10:26:25 -0500 (EST) From: "David J. Strauss" Subject: Eternal Return >> From: Glenn_Lea@avid.com > > > > If you can find it, ETERNAL RHYTHM by Don Cherry features Sonny > > > Sharrock and was recorded in Nov. 1968 > > > > > > I don't know if this was ever released on cd, the copy I have is an > > > lp (BASF 20680) > > > > It hasn't been released on disc, but damn sure should be. > > I believe this WAS released on CD about a year ago, in Europe only, on > Verve (!) as a double CD with additional material. "The Wire" was > giving it away as a freebie to new subscribers, even. But I can't find > any reference to it on the Verve website. Can anyone help here? Actually, it was _Eternal NOW_ that was re-released on CD. It was originally on Antilles. A superior LP to _ER_, but Sharrock-free (and trumpet-free, practically), alas. DS djs2852@is.nyu.edu - - ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 1 Dec 1997 10:51:36 -0500 (EST) From: Gauthier Michelle A <7mag2@qlink.queensu.ca> Subject: Re: cobra It is in my opinion that Zorn's Cobra Tokyo Operations is the fucking shit!!!!!! The musicians on that disc (all Japanese) are unbelievably talented... tasty... much better than the Knit CD with the picture of the cobra on the front. M On Mon, 1 Dec 1997, k. drudge wrote: > > > Also, any recommended recordings other than that double disc from circa > > > Tokyo Operations 94 (84?) disc a coupla times, but I've been unsure as to > > my enjoyment. And after Nani Nani and Filmworks VII, I've been even more > > in my opinion, this disc beats the hatart CD. intense & coherent. > > keldon > > > > - > > - - ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 01 Dec 1997 07:44:52 -1000 From: Dan Kuehn Subject: Re: Cobra Signals I'm sure others can give more details, but on the Cobra(Live & Studio) 2CD set on hatART, although there is no explanation of how they're used, a complete-looking list of signals is included, copyrite Oct 9, 84 NYC. Six sets(mouth, nose eye, ear, head & palm) of color-coded flags(19 total) Plus other military-like commands in catagories like Operations & Tactics & Some Locus Hand Cues.... What we don't know of course is WHEN which signals are being given... Too lazy to try to reproduce it all here - anybody want a xerox? Danxerox - -- Dan Kuehn resident manager Kailua Maui Gardens - - ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 01 Dec 1997 11:10:47 -0800 From: Jason Edward Kocol Subject: Re: Zorn a control freak? > On Monday I talked with Herb Robertson, and he mentioned that Zorn wouldn't > leave too much decisions to the musicians, and he disliked it. He said that > Zorn chooses people to play with him who, harshly formulated, do what he > says. Is that really so? Well, while not one of us can speak for Zorn personally, save for quoting him from an interview or meeting with him, we might remember that besides being an incredible improvisor and wanting to create music that is full of improvisational value, John Zorn is also a composer. And by being a composer, who also "conducts" his own music, essentially what he says goes. Whether it is "play these notes exactly as written" or "improvise freely here", by being a composer he has that choice. So really, one cannot rightfully condemn him for being a "control freak"; maybe he's a perfectionist. Maybe since he has all these ideas floating around in his head or on paper that he wants achieved exactly, he would want no less than the musicians following his vision(s). It has been written somewhere that Zorn uses particular musicians in his projects based on what playing style/method they have, and he wants to utilize that, which is why he works with so many different people, and so many of the same people as well. John Zorn strikes me as a man who knows exactly what he wants musically, and I respect that as much as I respect his playing and writing. Calling him a "control freak" is anyone's choice, but if he is indeed one, I for one can completely understand why. Oh, and sorry if this gets posted twice; I've been having my posts get lost somewhere recently. Take care, folks. - -Jason http://users.lanminds.com/~suburban - The s u b u r b a n Homepage http://members.tripod.com/~misterlazy - The Music of Mister Lazy - - ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 01 Dec 1997 11:10:47 -0800 From: Jason Edward Kocol Subject: Re: Zorn a control freak? > On Monday I talked with Herb Robertson, and he mentioned that Zorn wouldn't > leave too much decisions to the musicians, and he disliked it. He said that > Zorn chooses people to play with him who, harshly formulated, do what he > says. Is that really so? Well, while not one of us can speak for Zorn personally, save for quoting him from an interview or meeting with him, we might remember that besides being an incredible improvisor and wanting to create music that is full of improvisational value, John Zorn is also a composer. And by being a composer, who also "conducts" his own music, essentially what he says goes. Whether it is "play these notes exactly as written" or "improvise freely here", by being a composer he has that choice. So really, one cannot rightfully condemn him for being a "control freak"; maybe he's a perfectionist. Maybe since he has all these ideas floating around in his head or on paper that he wants achieved exactly, he would want no less than the musicians following his vision(s). It has been written somewhere that Zorn uses particular musicians in his projects based on what playing style/method they have, and he wants to utilize that, which is why he works with so many different people, and so many of the same people as well. John Zorn strikes me as a man who knows exactly what he wants musically, and I respect that as much as I respect his playing and writing. Calling him a "control freak" is anyone's choice, but if he is indeed one, I for one can completely understand why. Oh, and sorry if this gets posted twice; I've been having my posts get lost somewhere recently. Take care, folks. - -Jason http://users.lanminds.com/~suburban - The s u b u r b a n Homepage http://members.tripod.com/~misterlazy - The Music of Mister Lazy - - ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 1 Dec 1997 15:50:28 -0500 (EST) From: Matthew Ross Davis Subject: Re: Zorn a control freak? > Well, while not one of us can speak for Zorn personally, save for >quoting him from an interview or meeting with him, we might remember >that besides being an incredible improvisor and wanting to create music >that is full of improvisational value, John Zorn is also a composer. >And by being a composer, who also "conducts" his own music, essentially >what he says goes. Whether it is "play these notes exactly as written" >or "improvise freely here", by being a composer he has that choice. This makes sense to me. Having researched a little bit about Zorn's through-composed works, I've noticed that he is very particular about what he wants, and that's not odd at all for a composer. I have a feeling the image of him as a control freak is biased from the side of performers and musicians who are used to being able to improvise on their own without having to have others make specific and detailed rules for them. | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | m-a-t-t-h-e-w r-o-s-s d-a-v-i-s university of maryland http://www.artswire.org/mrd school of music | S | O | H | C | 4 | # | 3 | 6 | 5 | | | 7 | 9 | C | B | 6 | 5 | 0 | - - ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 1 Dec 1997 15:50:28 -0500 (EST) From: Matthew Ross Davis Subject: Re: Zorn a control freak? > Well, while not one of us can speak for Zorn personally, save for >quoting him from an interview or meeting with him, we might remember >that besides being an incredible improvisor and wanting to create music >that is full of improvisational value, John Zorn is also a composer. >And by being a composer, who also "conducts" his own music, essentially >what he says goes. Whether it is "play these notes exactly as written" >or "improvise freely here", by being a composer he has that choice. This makes sense to me. Having researched a little bit about Zorn's through-composed works, I've noticed that he is very particular about what he wants, and that's not odd at all for a composer. I have a feeling the image of him as a control freak is biased from the side of performers and musicians who are used to being able to improvise on their own without having to have others make specific and detailed rules for them. | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | m-a-t-t-h-e-w r-o-s-s d-a-v-i-s university of maryland http://www.artswire.org/mrd school of music | S | O | H | C | 4 | # | 3 | 6 | 5 | | | 7 | 9 | C | B | 6 | 5 | 0 | - - ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 01 Dec 1997 13:27:18 -0800 From: "Patrice L. Roussel" Subject: Re: Nyman On Sat, 29 Nov 1997 16:41:39 +1100 "Julian" wrote: > > > >While people are talking about this guy, what does everyone think of his > > >soundtrack work? Incidentally, is there any link between him and Zorn > apart > > >from that there are some mild similarities in their output? > > > > I don't see a single similarity between two... > > Since nobody else actually responded...... > > Ok, I think I proved my point. I got 2 responses like this, so I must ask > (more forcefully this time) why the hell was everyone talking about him > when there is no link between him and the man who this list is meant to be > about? > > Just a note, when I said "mild similarities" I meant that both have written > for soundtracks as well as stand-alone work, both are male, both are human > beings, etc. If these aren't mild similarities then I don't know what are. ^^^^^^ Not to mention that they both live on Earth. > Now I would understand your response if I had actually written "obvious, > fucking huge similarities". Patrice. - - ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 1 Dec 1997 17:57:37 -0600 From: "Glenn Astarita" Subject: 4Remi only Remi, I deleted your email id by accident ..please contact me l.....sorry to bother the list with this message..but its relatively important ! thanks glenn - - ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 1 Dec 97 21:36:01 UT From: "allen huotari" Subject: req for review of Moorefield Any of you Tzadik-o-philes out there have a review of the latest release: Virgil Moorefield "The Temperature In Hell Is Over 3000 Degrees" ? - - ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 2 Dec 1997 02:57:36 -0500 (EST) From: Christopher Hamilton Subject: Re: Down Home . . . On Sat, 29 Nov 1997, Mike Shepherd wrote: > At least one enthusiastic (and $16 poorer) thumb down! - Mike Could anyone be more specific about why this disc sucks? I ask because I'd been considering picking it up based on the lineup, and I don't know if the naysayers just don't care for Blythe, or it's deeply flawed, or ... what? Chris Hamilton - - ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 2 Dec 1997 04:44:09 EST From: Dgasque Subject: Butch Morris Box I've had this "Conduction" box since the day of its release, and i'm only now finding the time to really listen to it in proper fashion (IOW, not as background music.) I don't have it in front of me, so I can't give the volume IDs, but i've listened to one of the American performances and one from Japan. Brilliant stuff- at times reminds me of Eno's experiments in "accidental" music in the 70's, but in truer context than Eno's attempts. I'd be interested in other people's comments on Morris' conductions. =dgasque= - - ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 2 Dec 1997 04:44:05 EST From: Dgasque Subject: Re: Cobra Signals In a message dated 97-12-01 12:51:24 EST, you write: << 'm sure others can give more details, but on the Cobra(Live & Studio) 2CD set on hatART, although there is no explanation of how they're used, a complete-looking list of signals is included, copyrite Oct 9, 84 NYC. Six sets(mouth, nose eye, ear, head & palm) of color-coded flags(19 total) Plus other military-like commands in catagories like Operations & Tactics & Some Locus Hand Cues.... What we don't know of course is WHEN which signals are being given... Too lazy to try to reproduce it all here - anybody want a xerox? >> Interesting- I kind of imagined it as similar to the Darazj (sp?) method of hand signaling with choirs. =dgasque= - - ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 2 Dec 1997 04:44:06 EST From: Dgasque Subject: Niacin CD FS $7 shipping included within U.S., $9 outside. Email to reserve. Niacin- s/t (great Hammond-led trio of Billy Sheehan- bass, John Novello- Hammond B3 {Niacin- get it?}, Dennis Chambers- drums. Great fusion- very much in the mold of Zony Mash or Medeski/Martin/Woods at times, but can rock out too.) =dgasque= - - ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 2 Dec 1997 09:20:33 -0500 From: acapps@usit.net (ashley capps) Subject: Re: Down Home . . . >On Sat, 29 Nov 1997, Mike Shepherd wrote: >>Who was it that told me that "Down Home" (Joey Baron w/ Frisell, Carter, >>etc.) was any good? They lied to me! > >>At least one enthusiastic (and $16 poorer) thumb down! - Mike >A hearty ditto from my thumb as well. >s~Z >Could anyone be more specific about why this disc sucks? I ask because >I'd been considering picking it up based on the lineup, and I don't know >if the naysayers just don't care for Blythe, or it's deeply flawed, or ... >what? > >Chris Hamilton > Well. . . it certainly doesn't suck in my opinion. And I suspect that it just ain't "avant" enough for some of the felllows on this list. Essentially, it's an r'n'b record, with Baron and Ron Carter laying down some unbeatable grooves and Arthur Blythe in Cannonball Adderley mode. Sometimes Bill Frisell sounds like Steve Cropper (from Booker T and the MGs). Joey wrote all the tunes. I've enjoyed the hell out of it. It's sad and somewhat ironic, but I've found that many fans devoted to the avant-garde, noisy, improvising end of the spectrum tend to be quite narrow-minded and rigid in their tastes. Certainly much, much more so than most of the musicians themselves. You know, it's like religion. But I don't know if this applies to Mike or s~Z. At any rate, Down Home is is a fun, funky, enjoyable disc in my house. Ashley - - ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 2 Dec 1997 10:09:24 -0500 From: cdeupree@interagp.com (Caleb Deupree) Subject: Re: Butch Morris Box >>>>> "Dgasque" == Dgasque writes: Dgasque> I've had this "Conduction" box since the day of its Dgasque> release, and i'm only now finding the time to really Dgasque> listen to it in proper fashion (IOW, not as background Dgasque> music.) I don't have it in front of me, so I can't give Dgasque> the volume IDs, but i've listened to one of the American Dgasque> performances and one from Japan. Brilliant stuff- at Dgasque> times reminds me of Eno's experiments in "accidental" Dgasque> music in the 70's, but in truer context than Eno's Dgasque> attempts. I'd be interested in other people's comments Dgasque> on Morris' conductions. Budgetary considerations have forced me to acquire this set one CD at a time, and I now have two of the 11. My more recent acquisition was the Turkish Akbank Conduction (nos. 25 and 26), which features a group of musicians playing traditional Turkish instruments (ney, oud, etc.) along with various usual-gang-of-suspects, including Le Quan Ninh, J. A. Deane, Brandon Ross, and Hugh Ragin on trumpet. I find this work as dazzling and as unique as the Tokyo Cobra, in that here is an extremely heterogenous group of musicians, both traditional and contemporary, improvising together under the direction of a conductor. The sounds of course are very different -- the Akbank Conduction has lots of strings and great washes of sound, and overall is not as extreme as Tokyo Cobra. - --- Caleb T. Deupree ;; Opinions do not reflect on management Computers are useless. They can only give you answers. (Pablo Picasso) - - ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 2 Dec 1997 10:17:28 -0600 (CST) From: Mike Shepherd Subject: Re: Down Home . . . I'll try not to react to the narrow minded comment . . . The thing with Down Home was not that it was not avant garde enough for my taste. It goes beyond that. . . There is so much half-assed clean as a whistle "jazz" out there already. This antiseptic, soulless stuff that just plugs along according to the numbers, follows the same old changes as everything else that comes out every week. And maybe its just me, but this disc was just not interesting. My sole exposure with Joey _is_ so-called avant garde stuff (Barondown, Masada, Naked City, to a lesser extent Douglas' In Our Lifetime) but I knew that with Ron Carter on board, the experience would most likely be something altogether different. I was prepared for something different, but what I ended up with was this very bland, guitar/alto stuff with _unexceptional_ rhythm work from Baron and Carter. I didn't know what to expect from this disc, but even my dad doesn't like this stuff! "It's only romantic 'cause it never works." - Harriet the Spy ********************************* Mike Shepherd rein0065@frank.mtsu.edu Middle Tennessee State University (615) 898-3652 ********************************* - - ------------------------------ End of Zorn List Digest V2 #182 ******************************* To unsubscribe from zorn-list-digest, send an email to "majordomo@xmission.com" with "unsubscribe zorn-list-digest" in the body of the message. For information on digests or retrieving files and old messages send "help" to the same address. Do not use quotes in your message. 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