From: owner-zorn-list-digest@lists.xmission.com (Zorn List Digest) To: zorn-list-digest@lists.xmission.com Subject: Zorn List Digest V2 #1008 Reply-To: zorn-list Sender: owner-zorn-list-digest@lists.xmission.com Errors-To: owner-zorn-list-digest@lists.xmission.com Precedence: bulk Zorn List Digest Tuesday, July 18 2000 Volume 02 : Number 1008 In this issue: - zorn and the knit Re: cobra Re: cobra Re: cobra Ray Anderson Re: cobra, Re: Ray Anderson mobbed interview RE: cobra, ?Improv? Boulez Re: ?Improv? Re: Boulez genre naming Re: Odp: Boulez Re: ?Improv? Re: Odp: Boulez Re: PROMO: John Butcher/Phil Durrant-Requests and Antisongs Odp: cobra, Re: Odp: Boulez Re: Boulez ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Date: Tue, 18 Jul 2000 19:07:05 GMT From: "Matt Krefting" Subject: zorn and the knit i know this has been discussed on the list before, but i have to ask about it again since a friend of mine wants to mention the issue in an article he's writing: does anyone know of a dependable place to find out about zorn's attitude towards the knitting factory? i've heard that he hates it and stopped playing there, but at the same time i know he filled in for the YBO2 gig. if he really does hate it so, what are his reasons for feeling that way? any help is greatly appreciated. thanks in advance... matt ________________________________________________________________________ Get Your Private, Free E-mail from MSN Hotmail at http://www.hotmail.com - - ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 18 Jul 2000 12:07:58 -0700 From: "Patrice L. Roussel" Subject: Re: cobra On Tue, 18 Jul 2000 11:59:30 PDT "William York" wrote: > > >>Does any one know where I can get a copy of Cobra Live 92. > > >It was my impression that the Tom Cora tribute (IT'S A BRAND NEW DAY) >was > >produced by John Zorn at the condition that the COBRA would be >deleted. > > I also heard it was deleted, but I see it used a lot -- more than just about ^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^ Which should surprise nobody... > any other Zorn CD. If you want I could go try and find one, because I'm > pretty sure I could. But I would also guess that he will eventually reissue I saw a copy at the Victo festival. You might check with them, maybe they do mail order. > it on Tzadik as well. Since Zorn hates the record, this is highly unlikely. Patrice. - - ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 18 Jul 2000 14:16:29 -0400 From: Joseph Zitt Subject: Re: cobra On Tue, Jul 18, 2000 at 12:07:58PM -0700, Patrice L. Roussel wrote: > Since Zorn hates the record, this is highly unlikely. Does he hate it because it's from the Knit, or are there other reasons? - -- |> ~The only thing that is not art is inattention~ --- Marcel Duchamp <| | jzitt@metatronpress.com http://www.metatronpress.com/jzitt | | Latest CD: Jerusaklyn http://www.mp3.com/josephzitt | | Comma: Voices of New Music Silence: the John Cage Discussion List | - - ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 18 Jul 2000 13:08:20 -0700 From: "Patrice L. Roussel" Subject: Re: cobra On Tue, 18 Jul 2000 14:16:29 -0400 Joseph Zitt wrote: > > Does he hate it because it's from the Knit, or are there other reasons? I don't know. I remember that it took forever for the record to come out (was announced for mid-1993; came out early 1995), but I think it was because of graphic designs issues. I guess you would like to know if it is for the music, but I don't know. Patrice. - - ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 19 Jul 2000 07:00:19 +1000 From: "Julian" Subject: Ray Anderson Does anyone know anything about a Ray Anderson album "What Because"? I just heard about it, had never heard of it at all before... I know the track listing, but not a year or list of musicians. - - ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 18 Jul 2000 17:05:00 EDT From: Eriedell@aol.com Subject: Re: cobra, >Does he hate it because it's from the Knit, or are there other reasons? Could be because the album is just bad--I've read many negative reviews of it. Does anyone out there who owns it want to submit a review? ~Eriedell - - ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 18 Jul 2000 14:24:50 -0700 From: "Patrice L. Roussel" Subject: Re: Ray Anderson On Wed, 19 Jul 2000 07:00:19 +1000 "Julian" wrote: > > Does anyone know anything about a Ray Anderson album "What Because"? I just > heard about it, had never heard of it at all before... I know the track > listing, but not a year or list of musicians. - ------------------------------------------------------------------------------ *** - WHAT BECAUSE: Ray Anderson Ray Anderson: trombone; John Hicks: piano; Allan Jaffe: guitar; Mark Dresser: bass; Pheeroan Aklaff: drums. ???? - Gramavision (USA), ??? (??) # Review in EAR October 1990 (pp. 51) - ------------------------------------------------------------------------------ Sorry, but I don't know the release date, although I would assume that 1990 is a good guess. Patrice. - - ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 18 Jul 2000 14:26:47 -0700 (PDT) From: jason tors Subject: mobbed interview http://vermontreview.tripod.com/Interviews/sexmob.htm __________________________________________________ Do You Yahoo!? Get Yahoo! Mail – Free email you can access from anywhere! http://mail.yahoo.com/ - - ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 18 Jul 2000 14:38:33 -0700 From: "Benito Vergara" Subject: RE: cobra, > -----Original Message----- > From: owner-zorn-list@lists.xmission.com > [mailto:owner-zorn-list@lists.xmission.com]On Behalf Of Eriedell@aol.com > Sent: Tuesday, July 18, 2000 2:05 PM > Could be because the album is just bad--I've read many negative > reviews of it. > Does anyone out there who owns it want to submit a review? I've only sold back three Zorn CDs in my entire life; that was one of them. My verdict: I figure Cobra's one of those things I really have to watch to appreciate. I just could not get into it. I figure the Cobra live at the KF cd ends up in used cd bins more for the above reason, and also the fact that it's way cheaper than the Cobra stuff on Avant. So it served, as it did for me, as the first intro to Zorn's game pieces. Later, Ben np: "aperitivo" http://www.bigfoot.com/~bvergara/ ICQ# 12832406 - - ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 18 Jul 2000 17:44:32 -0400 From: Brian Olewnick Subject: ?Improv? JonAbbey2@aol.com wrote: > thanks, Patrice. so, as long as you're bringing it up, what do you think of > my genre name for the new wave of electroacoustic improv, dangerous improv? Hmm..."dangerous" seems to be a bit of a loaded term, no? I still tend to like the (arguably antiseptic) term of Bailey's: non-idiomatic improvisation. Not that it's possible, let alone easy, to remain non-idiomatic for long, but it would seem to give one something to shoot for. Brian Olewnick - - ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 18 Jul 2000 17:33:00 CDT From: "samuel yrui" Subject: Boulez Okay, I am not very familiar with Boulez. I've only heard his conducting of Zappa's 'The Perfect Stranger. Does Boulez have any albums of the more standard repertoire? Some shining examples, perhaps? Also, what are some good orchestral Zappa things to get? (Avoided using the term 'classical', barely caught myself.) thanks in applesauce, -samuel yrui Marcin said: "Boulez is also, needless to say, an incredible conductor. His recent recordings of Stravinsky and Bartok, for example, are incredible." ________________________________________________________________________ Get Your Private, Free E-mail from MSN Hotmail at http://www.hotmail.com - - ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 18 Jul 2000 18:53:34 EDT From: JonAbbey2@aol.com Subject: Re: ?Improv? In a message dated 7/18/00 5:57:32 PM, olewnik@idt.net writes: << I still tend to like the (arguably antiseptic) term of Bailey's: non-idiomatic improvisation. >> oh, yeah, that's really catchy. could you make it longer and drier, please? a couple of more genre name candidates from musicians (from the StN article): Otomo Yoshihide: un-name music Kevin Drumm: stuff (which makes even non-idiomatic improvisation look exciting) Jon www.erstwhilerecords.com - - ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 18 Jul 2000 18:53:51 EDT From: Samerivertwice@aol.com Subject: Re: Boulez In a message dated 7/18/00 6:34:14 PM Eastern Daylight Time, nonintention@hotmail.com writes: << Also, what are some good orchestral Zappa things to get? (Avoided using the term 'classical', barely caught myself.) thanks in applesauce, -samuel yrui The Yellow Shark ________________________________________ Top 10 CD's for July 1. Masada Live in London 2000 2. "In His Own Sweet Way" Dave Brubeck Tribute 3. Iris Dement "Infamous Angel" 4. Billy Bragg/Wilco -- "Mermaid Avenue 2" 5. Miles Davis -- "Complete Live At The Plugged Nickel" 6. Thomas Chapin -- "Alive" 7. Buena Vista Social Club 8. Johnny Cash -- "American Recordings" 9. The Best Of Patsy Cline 10. The Clash -- "London Calling" - - ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 18 Jul 2000 18:55:33 EDT From: JonAbbey2@aol.com Subject: genre naming In a message dated 7/18/00 2:13:05 PM, wlt4@mindspring.com writes: << Personally I like Kenneth Goldsmith's "glitchwerks" better >> my problem with glitchwerks or glitchprov is that they imply that mistakes are being made. there's something subtly demeaning about them, I think. Jon www.erstwhilerecords.com - - ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 18 Jul 2000 18:04:09 CDT From: "samuel yrui" Subject: Re: Odp: Boulez hm. My question in response to Patrice talking about melodic quality and being able to sing a piece all the way through. (Like Beethoven's fifth.) I've noticed on this list a propensity to rave about compositions or composers that are revolutionary. People who have, as David Rosenboom put it in his Arcana contribution, "propositional music." I'm not saying other forms aren't respected. Let me just hurry on to my point or question. I've noticed more and more lately that music considered by most to be propositional or revolutionary, have less and less melodic elements. True, Masada has brilliant and beautiful melodies, but Masada's reputation as something new does not come from melody alone, but it seems to me more for anthropological (izzat a word?) reasons. Naked City would be more in it's abilities of fusing musical worlds. I don't know. I meant for this to focus more on recent 'written notation' and/or orchestral and small acoustic ensemble composers. Patrice wrote: What I love in the ballet is the melodic quality: almost every second of it can be sung, and the melody are beautiful. But it is true that when listening to it, you feel more in the baroque period than in the XX century! ________________________________________________________________________ Get Your Private, Free E-mail from MSN Hotmail at http://www.hotmail.com - - ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 18 Jul 2000 18:56:57 -0400 From: Brian Olewnick Subject: Re: ?Improv? JonAbbey2@aol.com wrote: > oh, yeah, that's really catchy. could you make it longer and drier, please? Neo-Brownian, asymptotic, faux-Mandelbrotian, non-idiomatic improv? B. - - ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 18 Jul 2000 18:06:18 CDT From: "samuel yrui" Subject: Re: Odp: Boulez hm. My question in response to Patrice talking about melodic quality and being able to sing a piece all the way through. (Like Beethoven's fifth.) I've noticed on this list a propensity to rave about compositions or composers that are revolutionary. People who have, as David Rosenboom put it in his Arcana contribution, "propositional music." I'm not saying other forms aren't respected. Let me just hurry on to my point or question. I've noticed more and more lately that music considered by most to be propositional or revolutionary, have less and less melodic elements. True, Masada has brilliant and beautiful melodies, but Masada's reputation as something new does not come from melody alone, but it seems to me more for anthropological (izzat a word?) reasons. Naked City would be more in it's abilities of fusing musical worlds. I don't know. I meant for this to focus more on recent 'written notation' and/or orchestral and small acoustic ensemble composers. I like a lot of stravinsky's later neo-classic stuff. And Schoenberg considered melody the most important factor in music. I guess what I'm asking is can anyone recommend any music that you'd consider recently revolutionary for reasons based purely on beauty of and quality of melody making? thanks, -samuel, who trips over his own words much too often. Patrice wrote: What I love in the ballet is the melodic quality: almost every second of it can be sung, and the melody are beautiful. But it is true that when listening to it, you feel more in the baroque period than in the XX century! ________________________________________________________________________ Get Your Private, Free E-mail from MSN Hotmail at http://www.hotmail.com - - ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 18 Jul 2000 19:22:33 EDT From: JonAbbey2@aol.com Subject: Re: PROMO: John Butcher/Phil Durrant-Requests and Antisongs In a message dated 7/18/00 2:25:41 PM, jzitt@metatronpress.com writes: << There's always the danger of looking foolish. >> yeah, this is kind of what I mean, there's obviously no physical danger. a few examples: in the 24 hour MIMEO show, around 3 AM, the band played a section they called "almost danceable". Pita was laying down the beats with his Mac, when he abruptly crashed and the unmistakable "bong!" of a Mac rebooting briefly replaced the beats. when Thomas Lehn plays his synth live, he programs patches in between pieces, and he is often surprised by what they actually sound like when he begins to play. in the Butcher/Durrant interactive duo, the music's not always under their total control. Durrant alters Butcher's sounds in real time, and in turn the pitch and velocity of Butcher's saxophone automatically transform some of the sounds coming from Durrant, a part of the process which is under neither musician's control. Jon www.erstwhilerecords.com - - ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 19 Jul 2000 01:22:52 +0200 From: "Marcin Gokieli" Subject: Odp: cobra, I had it and traded it for some other stuff. One of the least intersting Zorn releases IMO (although nothing comes close to the intergalictic maiden ballet w/ Zorn. Nobody wants to trade, btw?) Marcin Gokieli marcingokieli@go2.pl Generally speaking, if a philosopher offers to 'dissolve' the problem you are working on, tell him to go climb a tree - Jerry Fodor - ----- Original Message ----- From: To: Sent: Tuesday, July 18, 2000 11:05 PM Subject: Re: cobra, > >Does he hate it because it's from the Knit, or are there other reasons? > > Could be because the album is just bad--I've read many negative reviews of it. > Does anyone out there who owns it want to submit a review? > ~Eriedell > > - > - - ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 18 Jul 2000 16:52:53 -0700 From: "Patrice L. Roussel" Subject: Re: Odp: Boulez On Tue, 18 Jul 2000 18:06:18 CDT "samuel yrui" wrote: > > My question in response to Patrice talking about melodic quality and being > able to sing a piece all the way through. (Like Beethoven's fifth.) I've > noticed on this list a propensity to rave about compositions or composers > that are revolutionary. People who have, as David Rosenboom put it in his > Arcana contribution, "propositional music." I'm not saying other forms > aren't respected. Let me just hurry on to my point or question. > I've noticed more and more lately that music considered by most to be > propositional or revolutionary, have less and less melodic elements. True, > Masada has brilliant and beautiful melodies, but Masada's reputation as > something new does not come from melody alone, but it seems to me more for > anthropological (izzat a word?) reasons. Naked City would be more in it's > abilities of fusing musical worlds. I don't know. > I meant for this to focus more on recent 'written notation' and/or > orchestral and small acoustic ensemble composers. I like a lot of > stravinsky's later neo-classic stuff. And Schoenberg considered melody the > most important factor in music. > I guess what I'm asking is can anyone recommend any music that you'd > consider recently revolutionary for reasons based purely on beauty of and > quality of melody making? The problem is that the revolutionary content of melodic music (if there was any) has more or less been exhausted a long time ago. That does not preclude the production of more fantastic songs (as rock music proves it every day), but there is not a lot in this genre for people looking for "revolution". As far as I know, Ravel is one of the last melodic composers, and he is usually ranked low in the hierarchy of modern composers (since he did not produce any technical breakthrough but just tried to distill Debussy's achievements to a level of perfection unexpected). To go back to Samuel's comment, I almost feel the opposite. I have detected recently more and more tiredness for "experimental" music. It is as if after so many decades, people are tired of music that wants so hard to be innova- tive (at any price). At the same time, the specialized audiences are getting more and more "guettoized" -- the less of an audience, the more convinced the cheerleaders are that the music is on the right path. The result is an increased fragmentation of experimental music that the optimists confuse as a good sign... It is not a surprise that THE WIRE covers so large! Since every individual genre is getting smaller and smaller every day. Jon Abbey's comment in StN about how very few music are interesting him these days is symptomatic: there are very little escapes left in experimental music, since most of the genres acknowledged as experimental these days have been repeating themselves for a few decades (put your favorite artist name here)... Jon's interest is concentrating on one of the very few island left where there is still some experimentation and... originality. Coming back to the list topic, have people noticed how non-experimental most of the NYDS music has become recently? In fact, you could almost interpret a vast majority of the NYDS music as a come back to rhythm and melody (Balkan music, klezmer, revival, a la maniere de Schummann/Mahler/etc, etc). Patrice. - - ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 18 Jul 2000 20:06:16 -0400 From: Mathieu Belanger Subject: Re: Boulez Hello, > I guess what I'm asking is can anyone recommend any music that you'd >consider recently revolutionary for reasons based purely on beauty of and >quality of melody making? Can I suggest godspeed you black emperor! for this? Well, their music is not really revolutionary - probably more a complex amalgame of very different musical/cinematographic/social influences and personal backgrounds - and it is very far from jazz/avant-garde/call-it-what- you-want, but it is defintely based on pure beauty and on the repetition of a (usually) very simple melodic pattern, all of this mixed with a phenomal progression of intensity. They can reach and maintain for five minutes a level of musical/emotional power very few musicians can even think of! Oh, and they are definitely the only band doing this kind of music, even though it is not a criteria for considering something revolutionary... Mathieu P.S. Sorry for talking about this band again... - - ------------------------------ End of Zorn List Digest V2 #1008 ******************************** To unsubscribe from zorn-list-digest, send an email to "majordomo@lists.xmission.com" with "unsubscribe zorn-list-digest" in the body of the message. For information on digests or retrieving files and old messages send "help" to the same address. Do not use quotes in your message. A non-digest (direct mail) version of this list is also available; to subscribe to that instead, replace all instances of "zorn-list-digest" in the commands above with "zorn-list". Back issues are available for anonymous FTP from ftp.xmission.com, in pub/lists/zorn-list/archive. These are organized by date. Problems? Email the list owner at zorn-list-owner@lists.xmission.com