From: owner-zorn-list-digest@lists.xmission.com (Zorn List Digest) To: zorn-list-digest@lists.xmission.com Subject: Zorn List Digest V2 #1010 Reply-To: zorn-list Sender: owner-zorn-list-digest@lists.xmission.com Errors-To: owner-zorn-list-digest@lists.xmission.com Precedence: bulk Zorn List Digest Wednesday, July 19 2000 Volume 02 : Number 1010 In this issue: - Re: Odp: Boulez Re: masada (was: Re: Odp: Boulez) Ray Anderson/What Because Re: Odp: Boulez Re: Odp: Boulez BOAC Music for Airports Re: Zorn List Digest V2 #1009 Hooker/Ranaldo/Marclay Re: Ray Anderson Re: Odp: Boulez Re: reich (bang on a can) Re: Odp: Boulez melody (was re: Boulez) Re: Odp: Boulez Re: ?Improv? Odp: BOAC Music for Airports Re: Odp: Boulez ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Date: Wed, 19 Jul 2000 08:56:14 -0700 From: "Patrice L. Roussel" Subject: Re: Odp: Boulez On Wed, 19 Jul 2000 01:50:06 -0500 Steve Smith wrote: > > I notice that, some hardcore protesters aside (and please, this is all > hypothetical, I'm not pointing at anyone in particular and I'm often as guilty as > anyone else), the audiences seem to still be growing... It seems both ironic and > completely normal that as more and more Zornies gripe about the continuing Masada > concept, there are more and more folks coming aboard every day. I would have no problem with Masada if there were something else... I am not against people having fun (although in this very situation, I am the one not having any :-). > Regardless of anything I've just said, the Masada quartet is still one of the > best working acoustic jazz bands currently playing. But for many that > description will be enough of a limitation to turn off. Nobody has complained about the quality of Masada. In fact, that is maybe the problem with Masada: everything is so perfect (the playing, the energy, the compositions). The problem is that old timers like me came to Zorn for reasons totally opposed to what Masada represents. Now I am willing to sacrifice my pleasure for the benefit of the masses, but at a price: that I open my mouth once in a while to complain about the "good old time" :-). I feel like in the position of a Stravinsky lover wondering, in 1919, what happened to his favorite composer, and expecting it was just a temporary break. Maybe with Zorn's new project... It is strange that Zorn has been keeping himself "electronics-free" since I would expect that with his approach (specially from the early '80s, with the swift shifts, game call noise), the results could have been terrific. BTW, wasn't Zorn the young composer who (in 1985) was making fun at Braxton and Lacy for putting out too many records? Patrice (who does not listen to Zorn very often these days but loves the man). - - ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 19 Jul 2000 09:15:41 -0700 From: "Patrice L. Roussel" Subject: Re: masada (was: Re: Odp: Boulez) On Wed, 19 Jul 2000 10:47:37 +0200 patRice wrote: > > patRice > > np: indochine "3" (and i don't even feel embarrassed) The French band? Patrice. - - ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 19 Jul 2000 08:39:00 -0700 From: dennis summers Subject: Ray Anderson/What Because I have it and enjoy it. Recorded at A&R Recording Studios, NYC November 15,21,29 1989. Mixed at Gramavision Studio NYC December 16,16,18 1989. released 1990 Ray Anderson -- Trombone Allan Jaffe -- Guitar John Hicks -- Piano Mark Dresser -- Bass Pheeroan akLaff -- Drums - - ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 19 Jul 2000 08:11:31 -0700 From: "Patrice L. Roussel" Subject: Re: Odp: Boulez On Tue, 18 Jul 2000 22:28:39 -0400 Joseph Zitt wrote: > > On Tue, Jul 18, 2000 at 04:52:53PM -0700, Patrice L. Roussel wrote: > > > As far as I know, Ravel is one of the last melodic composers, > > Say what? The massive majority of music being composed and performed > right now is melodic. What could that statement possibly mean? OK, I meant in the classical music field (I thought that it was obvious, that I was not talking about rock). Patrice. - - ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 19 Jul 2000 11:38:45 CDT From: "Kristopher S. Handley" Subject: Re: Odp: Boulez [re:Masada] >From: "Patrice L. Roussel" >I feel like in the position of a Stravinsky lover wondering, in 1919, what >happened to his favorite composer, and expecting it was just a temporary >break. Maybe with Zorn's new project... I suppose it _is_ a bit strange how much time Zorn's emptied into the Masada quartet, certainly in terms of output. I found that the "older" work (not exactly true, as I enjoy his other recent compositions almost as much as the earlier work, i.e. 80s) worked on _several_ "problems" within the course of any given piece, whereas _individual_ problems seem to dominate much of the Naked City "bar" music, most of the Masada (Quartet) pieces (and this by Zorn's suggestion), and _all_ of the Ornette tribute project. To rephrase: the music by Zorn that's more interesting to me shuns the "concept" in favor of confronting an Alexandrian knot (??) of problems. I fear for Zorn's oeuvre just a little bit----Masada was supposed to disband years ago, was it not? Was it not designed as a workshop, i.e. limited forum for the exhaustion of a finite cluster of problems, much like NC? Masada has quietly (huh?) persisted, though. Keith Jarrett never pulled out of his Standards Trio tailspin, and now he never will; so we have a bloated catalog of critically acclaimed albums which sound, for the most part, homogeneous. Much like the Masada catalog. Trainspotters rejoice! Yet they _kick ass_. I couldn't leave a band like that, either, especially if I, too, was the weakest link. Kind of like leaving Uma Thurman, or Daniel Day Lewis if you prefer. >It is strange that Zorn has been keeping himself "electronics-free" since I >would expect that with his approach (specially from the early '80s, with >the >swift shifts, game call noise), the results could have been terrific. In a very early interview in downbeat, from early eighties, I think, JZ suggests that he'll soon purchase some electronics, the "look out" (his words. Dammit! We've been looking out.... - -----s, Ethan Hawke must die ________________________________________________________________________ Get Your Private, Free E-mail from MSN Hotmail at http://www.hotmail.com - - ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 19 Jul 2000 07:59:15 -0700 From: William Crump Subject: BOAC Music for Airports m wrote: > > > does anyone have any comments about > the bang on a can music for airports > how does it compare with the original > > thanks > I'm fresh off of listening to this last night, and can tell you I love it to pieces. It's so much more timbrally rich (which wouldn't be hard, usually, with Eno's generative process music) than the original, but very accurately played, too. And more emotional. I wish I could have been a fly on the wall when (if) Eno first heard BOAC's version. William Crump - - ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 19 Jul 2000 13:22:06 EDT From: ObviousEye@aol.com Subject: Re: Zorn List Digest V2 #1009 In a message dated 7/19/00 5:12:19 AM Eastern Daylight Time, owner-zorn-list-digest@lists.xmission.com writes: << the bang on a can music for airports how does it compare with the original >> why redo it? it was classic upon its first release by Eno... i don't think this version is impressive at all. ben - - ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 19 Jul 2000 13:26:06 EDT From: ObviousEye@aol.com Subject: Hooker/Ranaldo/Marclay Can anyone give me a review of the william hooker/lee ranaldo/christian marclay album "bouquet" out on knitting factory? thanks. ben - - ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 19 Jul 2000 13:06:22 CEST From: "Andreas Dietz" Subject: Re: Ray Anderson >*** - WHAT BECAUSE: Ray Anderson > > Ray Anderson: trombone; John Hicks: piano; Allan Jaffe: guitar; Mark > Dresser: bass; Pheeroan Aklaff: drums. > > ???? - Gramavision (USA), ??? (??) > ># Review in EAR October 1990 (pp. 51) >------------------------------------------------------------------------------ > >Sorry, but I don't know the release date, although I would assume that 1990 >is a good guess. > > Patrice. recorded in NYC, Nov 15+22 1989 Andreas ________________________________________________________________________ Get Your Private, Free E-mail from MSN Hotmail at http://www.hotmail.com - - ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 19 Jul 2000 13:16:34 -0400 From: Joseph Zitt Subject: Re: Odp: Boulez On Wed, Jul 19, 2000 at 08:11:31AM -0700, Patrice L. Roussel wrote: > > On Tue, 18 Jul 2000 22:28:39 -0400 Joseph Zitt wrote: > > > > On Tue, Jul 18, 2000 at 04:52:53PM -0700, Patrice L. Roussel wrote: > > > > > As far as I know, Ravel is one of the last melodic composers, > > > > Say what? The massive majority of music being composed and performed > > right now is melodic. What could that statement possibly mean? > > OK, I meant in the classical music field (I thought that it was obvious, that > I was not talking about rock). Hmm... are you saying that no one in classical music is currently writing melodies? What about (off the top of my head) Phillip Glass, John Williams, John Corigliano, et al? And no longer with us, but post-Ravel, there were Leonard Bernstein, Aaron Copland, Alan Hovhaness, and many others. heck, even John Cage and Morton Feldman unleashed a melody now and then. - -- |> ~The only thing that is not art is inattention~ --- Marcel Duchamp <| | jzitt@metatronpress.com http://www.metatronpress.com/jzitt | | Latest CD: Jerusaklyn http://www.mp3.com/josephzitt | | Comma: Voices of New Music Silence: the John Cage Discussion List | - - ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 19 Jul 2000 08:36:32 -0700 From: "Patrice L. Roussel" Subject: Re: reich (bang on a can) On Wed, 19 Jul 2000 17:36:18 +1000 m wrote: > > apologies if this has already been asked > does anyone have any comments about > the reich bang on a can release (ny counterpoint etc) I think it is a splendid record and the rare FOUR ORGANS gets a top notch performance (almost as good as the reference -- the one performed by Michael Tilson Thomas, Ralph Grierson, Roger Kellaway, and Steve himself). Perfect intro to Reich since you get his first non-process composition (FOUR ORGANS) as well as two mid-period ones, including the gorgeous EIGHT LINES. Patrice. - - ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 19 Jul 2000 12:02:52 -0700 From: "Patrice L. Roussel" Subject: Re: Odp: Boulez Joseph, On Wed, 19 Jul 2000 13:16:34 -0400 Joseph Zitt wrote: > > > OK, I meant in the classical music field (I thought that it was obvious, that > > I was not talking about rock). > > Hmm... are you saying that no one in classical music is currently > writing melodies? What about (off the top of my head) Phillip Glass, Does Phillip Glass do? I never noticed, but I am quite ignorant of his '80s and '90s output. > John Williams, John Corigliano, et al? And no longer with us, but > post-Ravel, there were Leonard Bernstein, Aaron Copland, Alan > Hovhaness, and many others. heck, even John Cage and Morton Feldman > unleashed a melody now and then. If you use exceptions (case of Cage and Feldman) to try to make a rule :-). What I was trying to say was that in Europe, melody was dwindling in importance starting in the late 19th century, to the point where it was almost totally dropped with Schoenberg, Berg, Webern, Varese, and even most of Debussy (although Ansermet claims that everything that Debussy did was about melody). In this almost disappearance of melody, Ravel stands in a unique and awkward position, at least in Europe (although there Milhaud...). Since I am not familiar with the American composers that you mentioned (Copland, Hovhaness), my statement might have been a little bit strong (but I said "one the last melodic composers", not the last, which should cover my ass). Patrice. - - ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 19 Jul 2000 14:40:34 CDT From: "Kristopher S. Handley" Subject: melody (was re: Boulez) >From: "Patrice L. Roussel" >What I was trying to say was that in Europe, melody was dwindling in >importance starting in the late 19th century, to the point where it was >almost totally dropped with Schoenberg, Berg, Webern, Varese, and even >most of Debussy [snip] I'm just not sure enumerating composers and comparative visibility would help us chart the demise/fluctuation of melody's role in Western art music. But Patrice's point about the enormous impact of the "pantonal" and serialist fashions, the antipathy towards tonal centers (quite a bit before Derrida, no?)---isn't this only applicable toward academic music? I have read that for decades now, only the most select, cosmopolitan American orchestras venture into performances of even the avantgarde of the Twenties and Thirties, let alone later music; the rest are mired in earlier repertoire which ends with Mahler. Yes, of course there are exceptions, like the occasional Sibelius (very melodic), Debussy, Copland, Bernstein, etc. But the familiar, the canonical, and above all the _old_ seems to be the standard fare for most orchestras, most of the time. Is this unfounded? Could someone verify or debunk this? What is the European art music performance scene like? In other words: has the exhaustion, irrelevance, finitude, or even unpopularity of recognizable melody actually been a primarily academic phenomenon---music we never hear anyway? Nadia Boulanger instructed everybody, but she famously encouraged Astor Piazzola to pursue his tango roots. Exception? Yes, but... Other than orchestral Pink Floyd (somebody hand me the Pepto), the contemporary orchestral music most identified with "classical music" is _film music_. Are these not composers? Has this not had an effect on the gross quantity of music written today, whether we happen to hear it or not? Finally, Copland identified recognizable melody as a signal characteristic of "good" music in his book WHAT TO LISTEN FOR IN MUSIC, which is persistently used as a text in Music Appreciation and even (for "majors") Music Lit classes. When was this book written? I notice a new hardback edition will be published this year. Upon being asked by a compostion teacher how I felt about the "return" of tonality and simple melodies, I responded that I'd never known it had been gone. - ----s ________________________________________________________________________ Get Your Private, Free E-mail from MSN Hotmail at http://www.hotmail.com - - ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 19 Jul 2000 14:18:49 -0400 From: Joseph Zitt Subject: Re: Odp: Boulez On Wed, Jul 19, 2000 at 12:02:52PM -0700, Patrice L. Roussel wrote: > Does Phillip Glass do? I never noticed, but I am quite ignorant of his > '80s and '90s output. He's written some of my favorite melodies, such as the "Hymn to the Sun" from Akhnaten and some of the "Songs from Liquid Days". > What I was trying to say was that in Europe, melody was dwindling in > importance starting in the late 19th century, to the point where it was > almost totally dropped with Schoenberg, Berg, Webern, Varese, and even > most of Debussy (although Ansermet claims that everything that Debussy > did was about melody). In this almost disappearance of melody, Ravel > stands in a unique and awkward position, at least in Europe (although > there Milhaud...). > > Since I am not familiar with the American composers that you mentioned > (Copland, Hovhaness), my statement might have been a little bit strong > (but I said "one the last melodic composers", not the last, which > should cover my ass). Well, if you accept the idea that European-drived concert music is the only music worth discussing, ignore the wide array of music originally written for films, and skip the New Romantic blip of the '80s, that view of Ravel might hold. But it's sorta like saying that Zeppo was the funniest of the Marxes, except for his brothers. - -- |> ~The only thing that is not art is inattention~ --- Marcel Duchamp <| | jzitt@metatronpress.com http://www.metatronpress.com/jzitt | | Latest CD: Jerusaklyn http://www.mp3.com/josephzitt | | Comma: Voices of New Music Silence: the John Cage Discussion List | - - ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 19 Jul 2000 10:05:37 -0400 (EDT) From: Ken Waxman Subject: Re: ?Improv? In truth, it matters little what you (we) decide to "name" the music, it will pick up a name by itself, like Jazz or The New Thing or Bebop or Rockabilly. Leonard Feather didn't like the term The New Thing (he didn't much like the music either, but that's another story) so he decided to call it the Cosa Nostra (or some such). No one else picked up on what they called Free Jazz, Avant Garde, The New Thing, Black Classical Music etc. Buy if you read old Leonard Feather liner notes you'll see him nattering away using that expression. In other words the music will organically find its own name. Ken Waxman On Tue, 18 Jul 2000 JonAbbey2@aol.com wrote: > > In a message dated 7/18/00 5:57:32 PM, olewnik@idt.net writes: > > << I still tend to like the (arguably antiseptic) term of Bailey's: > non-idiomatic > improvisation. >> > > oh, yeah, that's really catchy. could you make it longer and drier, please? > > a couple of more genre name candidates from musicians (from the StN article): > > Otomo Yoshihide: un-name music > Kevin Drumm: stuff (which makes even non-idiomatic improvisation look > exciting) > > Jon > www.erstwhilerecords.com > > - > > - - ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 19 Jul 2000 20:55:16 +0200 From: "Marcin Gokieli" Subject: Odp: BOAC Music for Airports From: William Crump > very accurately played, too. And more emotional. I wish I could have > been a fly on the wall when (if) Eno first heard BOAC's version. It was made with eno's help and support so he knows the stuff. As for the richer sound, the eno version is obviusly deliberately monochromatic. Anyhow, a great record Marcin Gokieli marcingokieli@go2.pl Generally speaking, if a philosopher offers to 'dissolve' the problem you are working on, tell him to go climb a tree - Jerry Fodor - ----- Original Message ----- - - ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 19 Jul 2000 13:38:44 -0700 From: "Patrice L. Roussel" Subject: Re: Odp: Boulez On Wed, 19 Jul 2000 14:18:49 -0400 Joseph Zitt wrote: > > Well, if you accept the idea that European-drived concert music is the > only music worth discussing, ignore the wide array of music originally > written for films, and skip the New Romantic blip of the '80s, that > view of Ravel might hold. But it's sorta like saying that Zeppo was > the funniest of the Marxes, except for his brothers. I was definitely thinking about European classical contemporary music, and not because I think that it is the only music worth discussing (if it was the case I would not be on this list). Maybe I am too biased by the old continent, and tend to ignore what is not avant garde in the US (hence an almost total ignorance of Copland, Bernstein, etc). Back to Ravel, I still believe he is one of the few who wrote "pure" melodic music (such as MA MERE L'OYE, TOMBEAU DE COUPERIN), by pure I mean that melody is everywhere (you could whistle these two compositions from beginning to end). Not only you can whistle them, which is a characteristic of many top50 on the radio, but there are also delicate and wonderful. Anyway, IMHO, I can't think of anybody after him who could do that to such extent (friends mentioned a few names, but I never felt they even reached Ravel's ankle). I think he made an art of writing classical music where melody was still a strong drive, and not by simply borrowing from popular forms (although he did it often). Again in the European classical contemporary music... Ravel also wrote music with very little melody (such as DAPHNE ET CHLOE, that after 30 listenings, I still have troubles to follow...). Patrice. - - ------------------------------ End of Zorn List Digest V2 #1010 ******************************** To unsubscribe from zorn-list-digest, send an email to "majordomo@lists.xmission.com" with "unsubscribe zorn-list-digest" in the body of the message. For information on digests or retrieving files and old messages send "help" to the same address. Do not use quotes in your message. A non-digest (direct mail) version of this list is also available; to subscribe to that instead, replace all instances of "zorn-list-digest" in the commands above with "zorn-list". Back issues are available for anonymous FTP from ftp.xmission.com, in pub/lists/zorn-list/archive. These are organized by date. Problems? Email the list owner at zorn-list-owner@lists.xmission.com