From: owner-zorn-list-digest@lists.xmission.com (Zorn List Digest) To: zorn-list-digest@lists.xmission.com Subject: Zorn List Digest V2 #214 Reply-To: zorn-list Sender: owner-zorn-list-digest@lists.xmission.com Errors-To: owner-zorn-list-digest@lists.xmission.com Precedence: bulk Zorn List Digest Saturday, January 24 1998 Volume 02 : Number 214 In this issue: - Re: (Zorn does) Coltrane Coltrane: My Favorite Things Re: Doug Mc Kay Dolphy [was Re: COLTRANE] Re: COLTRANE Re: Re: COLTRANE My latest purchases Coltrane/Coleman/Dolphy Coltrane with Monk dolphy on mingus Re: Coltrane Re: Zorn in the Punk era Re: Otomo discography (was My latest purchases) Re: Material in the Punk era ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Date: Fri, 23 Jan 1998 22:19:17 PST From: "John Q Citizen" Subject: Re: (Zorn does) Coltrane Maybe I cast the net too wide here, but I dearly love the disc of covers called "Peace on Earth: Music of John Coltrane" (on KFW); Zorn guests on a couple tracks, and Rashied Ali leads. > >I've heard Coltrane called a lot of things, but "syrup and sweet >nothings" is certainly not one of them. If you're just looking for raw >edge, I'd recomend the four disc "Live in Japan" from Impulse. I still >have problems listening to this album. It is a series of long, brutally >powerful improvisations, where Coltrane's horn can be likened to a >groaning scream. I think that scream would more likely be Pharoah Sanders -Coltrane was getting pretty sick by then; but yr right - its a great set. Otherwise; I dunno. I think some of Coltrane's work could easily be qualified as soft and syrupy, or lacking in edge. But what's wrong with that? Or are musicians supposed to dedicate themselves to exclusively making 'edgy', 'horrible', 'noise' (and noise to my granma is syrup to me). I mean: these values are purely relative after all. And the guy's been dead thirty years. And I wonder how the wonder-white crew that lionize something like My Favourite Things, c.1998, would've reacted towards Ascension way back when... Anyway: I think Coltrane is fine. ______________________________________________________ Get Your Private, Free Email at http://www.hotmail.com - - ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 23 Jan 1998 22:14:38 -0800 (PST) From: "Andrew D. Boyko" Subject: Coltrane: My Favorite Things Since we're all of like mind, it's easy to forget that to plenty of people, Coltrane's "My Favorite Things" is irreverent and quite a ways "out". (This includes the dope who traded me the CD, indicating, "I don't know what people see in this Coltrane, but he can't play jazz.") MFT is a great, great record (and this from a guy who's normally more in tune with Torture Garden than Kind Of Blue). ObZorn: "New Traditions in East Asian Bar Bands" is really good and I don't know why it doesn't come up here more often. - - ------------------------------ Date: Sat, 24 Jan 1998 02:19:33 -0500 From: Steve Smith Subject: Re: Doug Mc Kay Coleman Greene wrote: > Eric Dolphy, I have no opinion on, as I've never heard Any of his > own compositions, Just heard him with others.... Well, sir, run, don't walk, to your local store and pick up "Out to Lunch." Dolphy made many fine records (and several other merely good records) but this is one of the cornerstones of adventurous '60s jazz, melodic but elegantly twisted. That, and his sometimes seemingly arbitrary intervallic leaps seem to be echoed in Zorn's own playing sometimes so it's germane to our little corner of the world here. It's also a tour de force for young Tony Williams... Put it to ya this way: Ornette's quartet music is so songful I "got" it on a surface level right away (though I'm still digging on the intricacies 15 years later). "Out to Lunch" *scared* me first time I heard it... Steve Smith ssmith36@sprynet.com - - ------------------------------ Date: Sat, 24 Jan 1998 02:48:05 -0500 From: Steve Smith Subject: Dolphy [was Re: COLTRANE] Jesse Simon wrote: > At 02:14 PM 1/23/98 -0600, JRZ wrote: > > >What Mingus albums does [Dolphy] play on? Most of his CD's don't list the > lineups > >on the outside. > > Eric Dolphy accompanied Mingus on the historic 1964 european tour. He > stayed after Mingus went home, recorded some albums with Danish (?) > personelle and then died shortly afterwards. Notable among these later recordings is "Last Date," which feature the budding yet already distinctive Misha Mengelberg and Han Bennink. > The newly released REVENGE double cd features Dolphy. It is an official > release of the Paris 1964 concert. From the same tour there are also two officially released volumes recorded in Germany, simply titled "Mingus in Europe" on Enja, which may be easier to find in some territories and are of comparable worth. > Dolphy also played on Mingus at Antibes (1960 Rhino/Atlantic) and on Mingus > Mingus Mingus Mingus Mingus (1961 Impulse). "Mingus at Antibes" is for me a high water mark, with its scorching version of "Wednesday Night Prayer Meeting." IIRC Dolphy is *not* on "Mingus Mingus Mingus Mingus Mingus." He *is* on all four of Mingus's releases on Candid, of which the most important is "Charles Mingus Presents Charles Mingus," which is a quartet completed by Ted Curson and Dannie Richmond. This album rocks. And there's a passage in the tune "What Love?" where Dolphy and Mingus toss ideas back and forth from bass clarinet to string bass in a manner that can only be called conversational -- sometimes it seems you can even make out the "words" being spoken. > Good stuff all around. Agreed, clearly. Steve Smith ssmith36@sprynet.com - - ------------------------------ Date: Sat, 24 Jan 1998 03:19:13 -0500 From: Steve Smith Subject: Re: COLTRANE Brent Burton wrote: > boy, i can't believe that no one has mentioned _impressions._ definitely > my favorite coltrane disc after _a love supreme_. dolphy and coltrane > kick *ass* all over "india." [snip] > maybe the _impressions_ material has been included on the village vanguard > box set. if so, i'd like to know. "Impressions" did kick my ass early on, too, and it can probably be found used now more than ever thanks to the box set - bargain hunters take note. Of its four tunes, "India" and the title track are both included (in much better sound) in the new Village Vanguard box set, and "After the Rain" was included in a 1993 disc called "Dear Old Stockholm," which included the complete surviving studio recordings of the Coltrane quartet with Roy Haynes instead of Elvin Jones. That leaves just "Up 'gainst the Wall" unavailable right now (I assume this disc is out of print but could be wrong), and most of the odds and ends of the catalog have been included as bonus tracks on chronologically related albums so I'd count on seeing that track again someday as well. It's even possible that it's already available on the new version of "Coltrane" which I don't have yet, but I couldn't say for sure. Steve "Talkin' David Wild Blues" Smith ssmith36@sprynet.com - - ------------------------------ Date: Sat, 24 Jan 1998 03:47:34 EST From: JonAbbey2 Subject: Re: Re: COLTRANE In a message dated 1/24/98 3:22:02 AM, ssmith36@sprynet.com wrote: <> You have surmised correctly, Steve; both Big Nick and Up 'Gainst The Wall are included as bonus tracks on the "Coltrane" reissue. One thing I'd like to add to the Coltrane discussion is that the recent wave of remasters on Impulse/GRP is sonically amazing. To my ears, the sound is so much better than the first wave of Coltrane reissues that I would recommend avoiding the earlier versions even if they're floating around used and cheap. The easy way to tell the difference is that the earlier ones are in jewel boxes while the remastered ones are in cardboard packs. Impulse is currently in the middle of a program to remaster everything Coltrane did for them, so if you have a choice, hold out for the new ones. Jon - - ------------------------------ Date: Sat, 24 Jan 1998 04:18:21 -0600 From: Craig Rath Subject: My latest purchases I sorta missed out on the top ten thing, so I thought I'd just throw out my latest purchases with my initial thoughts and see what others have to say. 1. The Dead C - Tusk: very interesting stuff. Sort of like Gate meets KK Null, or something. Recommended if you like interesting noise. 2. High Rise - Psychedelic Speed Freaks '84 - '85: This one is somewhere between High Rise and Mainliner. The songs of High Rise done with the production value (if that's an appropriate term) of Mainliner. In other words, loud to the point of total amplifier blowout. Only recommended if you like being hurt while you listen, which I sometimes do. 3. Swans - Swans are Dead: A good capsule of the last years of the Swans. Disc one is from the final tour in 97 and disc 2 is from 85. Since I wasn't able to get a tape of the 97 show, this is a welcome addition to the collection. 4. The Red Krayola: So this is what Gastr Del Sol and company sound like when they aren't in charge. Actually, I like it quite a bit, but it definitely has Mayo Thompson's thumbprint on it. But then again, I'll buy almost anything that O'Rourke has been involved with. 5. Gary Numan - Exile: Probably the first album he's put out in years that I really like. I've liked a lot of his work in recent years, but not most of it. The last entire album I liked was Warriors, and that was what, 1983? Oh well. I guess I'll always be a member of the Tubeway Army. 6. Scorn - Zander: Mick Harris doing his dub thing. Like Numan, I guess I'll always like Harris' stuff, even when it gets a bit repetitive. 7. Masada 7: Need I say more? 8. Bill Laswell - Sacred System Chapter Two: I love this. The mixture of the subsonic bass with the clarity of the cornet is incredible. Not to mention the other sounds and textures. Recommended. 9. Christian Marclay - More Encores: Highly Recommended. What this guy does with other peoples' work is nothing short of brilliant. All you have to do is listen to what he does with Maria Callas' work and you'll forever be a fan of his abilities. 10. David Shea - Hsi-Yu Chi: Excellent. What he does here blew me away. I've always been a fan of his work, but this piece shows to people (my friends who think he's just a weird "sampler" guy) that he is very much a modern composer who knows how to set moods and tell a story with music. 11. Vajra - Sichisiki: Keiji Haino in one of his bluesiest moments. Yet another side to him. 12. Onna-Kodomo - Syuuka: Bass, Violin, Vocal and some guitar and percussion. One of the most ethereal albums I've bought in a long time. Yuko Hasegawa's voice is incredible, as are the moods that this album induces. 13. Ground Zero - Plays Standards: One of the best of the year. If for no other reason than it has brought about a whole new interpretation of other great albums as Massacre's Killing Time and Omoide Hatoba's Kinsei. I've played this one so many times that my friends are starting to get annoyed. I need to find a complete discography of Otomo Yoshihide (although if there is anything on there that is unavailable, I'll be plenty annoyed). Anyway, there are a few others, but I haven't had enough time to listen to them completely yet, such as Lustmord vs Metal Beast, Controlled Bleeding - The Poisoner, and the compilation Release Your Mind vol. 2. It's not really fair to call this my top ten of 97, since there were so many others (and I'm sure not everything can be considered 97 releases), and there are more than ten on the list, but this is my most recent kick. By the way, if anyone knows of a good Z'EV disc to start out with, I'd appreciate the info. - - Currently playing: Dissecting Table: Mask - from Release Your Mind Vol. 2 - - ------------------------------ Date: Sat, 24 Jan 1998 11:25:34 +0100 (MET) From: Age Rotshuizen Subject: Coltrane/Coleman/Dolphy My recommendations: Coltrane: old-Coltrane: Blue Train middle (=Atlantic) Coltrane: Giant Steps new Coltrane: A Love Supreme newest Coltrane: Meditations Coleman: The Shape of Jazz to Come Free Jazz At the "Golden Circle" Stockholm vols. 1&2 Dolphy: Live at the Five Spot vols. 1&2 Out to Lunch Try: Charlie Haden - Liberation Music Orchestra Charlie Mingus - BLak Saint and Sinner Lady Charlie Mingus - MingusMingusMingusMingusMingus Age - - ------------------------------ Date: Sat, 24 Jan 1998 04:50:43 From: "Doug McKay" Subject: Coltrane with Monk Here I was chattering about how I liked Monk and hadn't really heard much of Coltrane except that one album, and tonight I decided to listen to Monk. So I take out LIVE AT THE FIVE SPOT and see on it, right there in red: "The Thelonius Monk Quartet" and below that in smaller letters - "featuring John Coltrane"! But then, I'm red/green color blind and that red is damn near invisible to me. I can't really read what it says unless I get right down there and stare hard. Geez, can't designers take us color blind guys into account when they use red or green on their stuff? At least the title's in white, and there's a picture of Monk on the cover, so I'm not really going to get very confused and think I'm putting on a Pantera CD or something. Besides, on the back and on the spine it's just black and white so I should have known Coltrane was playing on it. There's no excuse for this, I guess. You people do know about this recording, don't you? It's from a 1957 gig, and recorded by Coltrane's wife on their mono tape recorder. It's on Blue Note. CDP 599786 You can hear the audience. Some woman just said something about her drink. Doug McKay In Minnesota Smokin' a stogie, listening to Monk solo on Epistrophy. - - ------------------------------ Date: Sat, 24 Jan 1998 11:40:41 +0100 (MET) From: Age Rotshuizen Subject: dolphy on mingus >What Mingus albums does he play on? Most of his CD's don't list the lineups >on the outside. a lot. I know of "Black Saint and Sinner Lady", "MingusMingusMingusMingusMingus", "Mingus at Antibes", "Charlie Mingus presents Charlie Mingus", "Complete Townhall Concert", "The Great Concert of Charlie Mingus" - all highly recommended, Age - - ------------------------------ Date: Sat, 24 Jan 1998 08:34:38 -0600 From: "todd furey" Subject: Re: Coltrane > Is there a video series on the history of jazz or even on part of its > history? Sort of like the multivolume history of rock and roll available > now? There should be. I'd love to see it. There will be in the coming years, I think 2000, is the slated date for a PBS special. The same director who did the civil war and baseball documentaries is working on a ten part series of jazz history. I was told it would be a decade by decade approach, the first episode must stretch farther into the previous century though. Coltrane Recommendation for avant garde fans, Om, Coltrane recorded this album under the influence of LSD. To compare this to My Favorite Things would be brutal. Rational thought must be left at the doorstep before checking this album out. Great personnel with him: •McCoy Tyner piano •Jimmy Garrison bass •Donald Garrett bass •Elvin Jones drums •Joe Brazil flute •Pharoah Sanderstenor sax This is coming as sort of an intro for me, I had joined the list about three weeks ago and have laid back to check out the discussions. My name is todd furey and I am a 22 year old student. I have been studying American History at the University at Albany, NY. I have planned on a career of teaching, to start at the secondary level while I pay off bills and continue on with graduate work. I am heavily influenced by early schools of jazz which I have been listening to for years, recently I have found an interest in the music of john zorn. I hope to learn more from all of you and join in future discussions. Thank you all todd furey - - ------------------------------ Date: Sat, 24 Jan 1998 09:43:12 -0500 From: Rich Williams Subject: Re: Zorn in the Punk era Doug McKay wrote: > > What was Zorn doing during the New York punk scene? I just finished the > book by Legs McNeil and (can't recall her name) called PLEASE KILL ME. > Robert Quine is quoted in there, concerning his work with Richard Hell. I > know Quine worked with Zorn on Spillane. So there's some connection. Is > there more? In the late 70's, JZ's "working" group was with Eugene Chadbourne and Polly Bradfield, and he was beginning to develop his larger scale game pieces. The first cross pollination between the free improv and punk scenes that I remember was the original Golden Palomino's.which in turn spawned The Locus Solus Trio of Zorn, Lindsay and Fier. This band, played most of their concerts at punk rock clubs. Of course, Arto had been in DNA and Anton had been in The Feelies and Lounge Lizards, but that didn't cut much with audiences. It was actually quite fun to watch the audience during these gigs. You'd see everything from stunned silence ,to people walking out, to shouts of "Bullshit" from club regulars. I remember a Material concert at the Kitchen in 1981. Material at that time, was popular in the punk clubs, and their early EP's were somewhat in that vein, but when the gig turned out to be Laswell, Zorn, Sharrock,Frith,Derek Bailey, and Charles Noyes doing free improvs, they managed to disperse the audience in pretty short order. It really wasnt until Mr Bungle,Naked City and Painkiller, that Zorn had much of a following with Rockers. The punk scene was, to a certain extent, about fashion, and these guys were NOT fashionable. - - ------------------------------ Date: Sat, 24 Jan 1998 12:26:22 -0500 From: cdeupree@interagp.com (Caleb Deupree) Subject: Re: Otomo discography (was My latest purchases) At 04:18 AM 1/24/98 -0600, Craig Rath wrote: > >I need to find a complete discography of Otomo Yoshihide (although if there >is anything on there that is unavailable, I'll be plenty annoyed). Check out http://www2.gol.com/users/miyuki/yotomo/yotomo.html, which, as I check this out again, lists a **new Ground Zero** album (pardon me while I foam at the mouth... there, I feel better now), actually a live Cassiber album with one of two disks remixed by Ground Zero. Anyway, lots of other Otomo info here, part of a Japanese free improvisers site. Oh yes, prepare to be plenty annoyed. Patrice's discography lists over 80 items and stops in April 1997. - -- Caleb Deupree cdeupree@interagp.com cdeupree@erinet.com Computers are useless; they can only give you answers - -- Pablo Picasso - - ------------------------------ Date: Sat, 24 Jan 1998 12:35:02 -0500 From: cdeupree@interagp.com (Caleb Deupree) Subject: Re: Material in the Punk era At 09:43 AM 1/24/98 -0500, Rich Williams wrote: > I remember a Material concert at the Kitchen in 1981. Material >at that time, was popular in the punk clubs, and their early EP's were >somewhat in that vein, but when the gig turned out to be >Laswell, Zorn, Sharrock,Frith,Derek Bailey, and Charles Noyes doing free >improvs, they managed to disperse the audience in pretty short order. There's a complete live Material concert on DIW-389 that has a similar lineup, Laswell, Beinhorn, Frith, Noyes, David Moss, and Mark Miller, recorded at Soundscape on October 16, 1981, sounding much like free improv. An interesting footnote to the whole Material experience, very percussion heavy and not especially well recorded. - -- Caleb Deupree cdeupree@interagp.com cdeupree@erinet.com Computers are useless; they can only give you answers - -- Pablo Picasso - - ------------------------------ End of Zorn List Digest V2 #214 ******************************* To unsubscribe from zorn-list-digest, send an email to "majordomo@xmission.com" with "unsubscribe zorn-list-digest" in the body of the message. For information on digests or retrieving files and old messages send "help" to the same address. Do not use quotes in your message. A non-digest (direct mail) version of this list is also available; to subscribe to that instead, replace all instances of "zorn-list-digest" in the commands above with "zorn-list". Back issues are available for anonymous FTP from ftp.xmission.com, in pub/lists/zorn-list/archive. These are organized by date.