From: owner-zorn-list-digest@lists.xmission.com (Zorn List Digest) To: zorn-list-digest@lists.xmission.com Subject: Zorn List Digest V2 #315 Reply-To: zorn-list Sender: owner-zorn-list-digest@lists.xmission.com Errors-To: owner-zorn-list-digest@lists.xmission.com Precedence: bulk Zorn List Digest Wednesday, April 8 1998 Volume 02 : Number 315 In this issue: - Re: Tim Berne & David Sanborn Re: Tim Berne & David Sanborn Re: Tim Berne & David Sanborn Re: winter and winter Re: Tim Berne & David Sanborn Re[3]: math rock Re[2]:Varese and "experimenting" Re: Don Byron Re: Re[3]: math rock Re: Experimental and FNM Re: Steve Reich boxset [none] Re: Partners in subversion Re: varese/experimentalism/cage Re: Tim Berne & David Sanborn Re[2]: Steve Reich boxset dumb Re: Tim Berne & David Sanborn Re: ECM ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Date: Wed, 08 Apr 1998 08:30:54 -0700 From: Eric Saidel Subject: Re: Tim Berne & David Sanborn > This morning on my way to work I listened to Berne's album Diminutive > Mysteries, his tribute to Julius Hemphill, which includes David > Sanborn as a sideman. This seems like an uncharacteristic pairing, > and I was wondering if anyone had information on how this came to > pass, whether they played live or toured together, etc. > > --- > Caleb T. Deupree Sanborn was once upon a time a member of St. Louis' Black Artists Group (something akin to Chicago's AACM) - a group that also featured Oliver Lake, Julius Hemphill, and I think Lester Bowie and Marty Ehrlich. (Sanborn may not have been a member; he may have just been a younger guy hanging around with the group.) He also used to hang out with Roscoe Mitchell (he may have even been a student). Then - so Roscoe tells me - he decided it would be nice to make some money, so he gave up all that avant garde noise and started playing much more R&B. He does some nice playing on Diminutive Mysteries, almost to make one regret the path he did take. I have no idea of Berne and Sanborn toured or played live together. - - eric - - ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 08 Apr 98 09:47:37 -0500 From: brian_olewnick@smtplink.mssm.edu Subject: Re: Tim Berne & David Sanborn Sanborn, all indications to the contrary, came out of the St. Louis area and was involved with members of BAG (Black Artists Group) at the time (late 60's, early 70's), an organization similar to the AACM which included Julius Hemphill, Oliver Lake, John Hicks (I think) and others. Arista released a couple of pretty good albums from BAG-associated folk (sans Sanborn) including Joseph Bowie's Human Arts Ensemble and Lake's 'Ntu'. Sanborn, to give credit where credit is due, also hosted the short-lived but pretty amazing late Sunday night music show on NBC about eight years back which had as guests Zorn (DS participated in a performance of 'Road Runner'!), WSQ, Diamanda Galas and many other non-TV types (I recall taping was problematic as the show's actual airing time was dependant on the length of that afternoon's NFL game!). Brian Olewnick ______________________________ Reply Separator _________________________________ Subject: Tim Berne & David Sanborn Author: at SMTP-for-MSSM Date: 4/8/98 9:28 AM This morning on my way to work I listened to Berne's album Diminutive Mysteries, his tribute to Julius Hemphill, which includes David Sanborn as a sideman. This seems like an uncharacteristic pairing, and I was wondering if anyone had information on how this came to pass, whether they played live or toured together, etc. - --- Caleb T. Deupree ;; Opinions are not necessarily shared by management Computers are useless. They can only give you answers. (Pablo Picasso) - - - - ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 8 Apr 1998 10:29:07 EDT From: IOUaLive1 Subject: Re: Tim Berne & David Sanborn They have played live together, in "Spy Vs. Spy". At at least one show, there was Zorn, Berne, and Sanborn reading Zorn's charts and blowing like mad. Jody - - ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 08 Apr 1998 10:45:11 +0100 From: Dan Given Subject: Re: winter and winter Various people wrote: >>> Does anyone know who carries Winter & Winter discs? (online or mail order) >>> I have been trying to find the Big Satan disc and I am interested to see >>> what else they have... >> >> Allegro, starting in May, here in the states. But I was under the impression >> >> that the label's been widely available in Canada for some time now... >Not widely available. I'm been looking for a copy of the Uri Caine disc >for months. Everyone's heard of it. It's even been reviewed (favorably) >but it's nowhere to be seen. >Ken Waxman >cj649@torfree.net The Winter and Winter discs should be available through any HMV in Canada. I know tha one here (London Ontario) has had them. Also, I think Verge carries at least some of them. I'm sure I saw at least the Reijeger disc listed--which is amazing. Dan - - ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 08 Apr 1998 10:21:42 -0400 From: Joseph Zitt Subject: Re: Tim Berne & David Sanborn brian_olewnick@smtplink.mssm.edu wrote: > Sanborn, to give credit where credit is due, also hosted the > short-lived but pretty amazing late Sunday night music show on NBC > about eight years back which had as guests Zorn (DS participated in a > performance of 'Road Runner'!), WSQ, Diamanda Galas and many other > non-TV types (I recall taping was problematic as the show's actual > airing time was dependant on the length of that afternoon's NFL > game!). BTW: If your cable system gets the BET ON JAZZ station, you can see Night Music reruns several times a day. Woo-hoo! (I think their Web page is http://www.betonjazz.com/ but I could be wrong. A web search should find it.) - -- - ---------1---------1---------1---------1---------1---------1---------- |||/ Joseph Zitt ===== jzitt@humansystems.com ===== Human Systems \||| ||/ Maryland? = <*> SILENCE: The John Cage Mailing List <*> = ecto \|| |/ http://www.realtime.net/~jzitt ====== Comma: Voices of New Music \| - - ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 8 Apr 1998 15:44:30 UT From: peter_risser@cinfin.com Subject: Re[3]: math rock << Because it's easier to say "8 measures of 13/8" than >> Actually, being non-musically trained, me and my fellows just drop the /8 or /4 altogether and talk about threes, fives, 13s, etc. What's the difference between 4/4 and 8/8. Or 3/4 and 6/8. I can't tell. I've had people try to explain it to me, but to no avail. And when someone says, 31, yeah, you know it's probably 8/8/8/7, cuz if it were 6/10/7/8, they'd say that instead. I think Soft Machine has a song at the end of one album called something like 21/4 Box Top and, yeah, it's definitely warped around to be a 21, and not three 7's or anything like that. I've also seen a jazz tune called 8/8, and I'll be damned if it did sound more like 8 than a funky four. So, it can be done. Also, math rock can be done in 4/4, by turning things around in three measures instead of the usual rock four, or by adding silences in interesting places. So. PeterR - - ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 8 Apr 1998 15:44:56 UT From: peter_risser@cinfin.com Subject: Re[2]:Varese and "experimenting" Yeah! That's the quote. I guess he's not my "friend." My my friend was quoting him. And by the way folks, not to be a music snob, but his name really is Edgard Varese, with a d. PeterR ____________________Reply Separator____________________ Subject: Varese and "experimenting" Author: owner-zorn-list@lists.xmission.com Date: 04/07/1998 7:13 PM I am reminded of the following quote from one of my favorite composers: I do not write experimental music. My experimenting is done before I make the music. - Edgar Varese - - - - ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 07 Apr 1998 17:17:24 +0100 From: patRice Subject: Re: Don Byron William York wrote: > > Speaking of Don Byron, since he was mentioned on the last list, does > anyone know when he will have something new out? It's strange, but he > only has two albums of original stuff, plus 2 cover albums and 1 live > album, in 7-8 years. Maybe he's too involved in political stuff. Any > help would be appreciated. Thanks. ****************** > hi william! what kind of political stuff is don byron involved in? can you maybe tell me sthg about this? thanks! patRice - - ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 8 Apr 1998 11:16:26 -0400 (EDT) From: Brent Burton Subject: Re: Re[3]: math rock On Wed, 8 Apr 1998 peter_risser@cinfin.com wrote: > Also, math rock can be done in 4/4, by turning things around in three measures > instead of the usual rock four, or by adding silences in interesting places. that's true too. definitely a math rock trait, being easier for punks to play than 21/4. also, i've seen varese's name spelled both edgar and edgard on album covers. b - - ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 08 Apr 1998 08:12:36 -0700 From: "Patrice L. Roussel" Subject: Re: Experimental and FNM On Wed, 8 Apr 1998 17:35:59 +1000 "Julian" wrote: > > Basically that person who mentioned "chance" and "indeterminacy" was > completely off the mark. That has nothing to do with the general idea of > experimental music. Experimental means exactly what it sounds like - > experimentation, as in doing something different, fiddling around with what > is usually done. So that is why that other person said quite correctly that > FNM wasn't experimental in playing different styles. I would call their > stuff on Angel Dust experimental - they play rock music like it has never > been played before on that album. But their concept on King For A Day > (playing varied styles from country to metal) isn't since all the music has > basically been done before. > > Chance and indeterminacy (in the sense that you meant it) only come into > those 20th century works of such composers as Cage and Varese, and of ^^^^^^ Chance and indeterminacy in Varese? Hard to believe when you know how much Varese sweated on each note of each of his scores... Patrice. > course Zorn. And as that _other_ person said, these days it isn't still > called experimental since the ideas have already been formulated, > everyone's going to stand around and follow these weird little graphs and > make appropriate noises at appropriate times. But of course, generally > these terms come into all music from all musical periods... > > > - > - - ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 08 Apr 1998 08:10:36 -0700 From: "Patrice L. Roussel" Subject: Re: Steve Reich boxset On Wed, 08 Apr 1998 09:17:23 +0200 Julien Quint wrote: > > > ia zha nah er vesen said: > > So, were all the compositions in the Reich Box rercorded especially > > for it? What an expensive undertaking... > > No, the box set contains all the original recordings published by Elektra > (e.g. "Different Trains", etc.) and new recordings of works published > elsewhere (e.g. "Drumming" or "Music for 18 musicians"), so only a part of the > recordings is new. I was under the impression that the box had about anything > Reich had done up to this point, but maybe some pieces are missing. Can't tell > you which one though; I don't have the box yet (I'll buy it after I get the > Miles Davis one.) Besides PENDULUM MUSIC, that Reich has never recorded, it seems that PHASE PATTERNS was also missing from the list recently posted. Patrice. - - ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 8 Apr 1998 17:01:10 +0200 From: "D. Gschwend Gschwend D. Atelier" Subject: [none] - - ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 08 Apr 1998 09:57:55 +0100 From: patRice Subject: Re: Partners in subversion hi patrice! what's the story behind scanner suing bjork?!? that sounds interesting! patRice Patrice L. Roussel wrote: > > > A little bit like Dylan threatening to sue Apple because they called one of their > product Dylan :-). > > Or Scanner to sue Bjork... > > Patrice. > > - - - ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 08 Apr 1998 08:42:04 PDT From: "Scott Handley" Subject: Re: varese/experimentalism/cage > >I am reminded of the following quote from one of my favorite composers: > >I do not write experimental music. My experimenting is done before I >make the music. > - Edgar Varese I like this, although I'd be curious to hear what else Varese said, just to put the above epigram in context, and to flesh it out. I find that people like sound bites, and as such we are suckers for all politicians, even--or especially--the politicians of aesthetics. This can be elevated to an art. Since Jim Morrison (my slection is arbitrary...AT LEAST SINCE Jim Morrison), the mainstream has demanded of pop-cultural icons that they challenge and contribute and pontificate in 1.5 sentence increments. "interviews" are great opportunities for this. Manifestos are produced by the baker's dozen. Ideology is is filtered down to MTV edits: very palatable, very convenient, and not too taxing on the absolutely modern attention span. Oscar Wilde, among few others, was able to build a virtual aesthetic worldview (albeit rife with irony), with bite size maxims; he was REALLY GOOD at it. I personally think Neitzsche was not as funny or as helpful or as good as Wilde, but I respect N's quotes anyway. Of course, I do not direct these comments toward Allen or anyone on this list: I LIKE (at least sometimes) the quotes offered here, although those "signature quotes" at the bottom of EVERY POST by some tend to irritate me a little after I've seen them for the eighteenth time (c'mon...there are a LOT of quotes in the world...). They sometimes make me want to check the source out. I just thought I'd offer double-nickels on the tendency of one's affinity for bite-size wisdom to encourage non-thinking and facile answers to complicated questions. I have suffered from this myself, and continue to fight the urge to be satisfied on morsels, philosophical jellybeans instead of a nice mouthfull of wine to be tasted and savored and tried again and thought about: is is bitter? is it sweet? how formidable is it? does it challenge my taste? does the way I perceive it change with time, or with the way I approach it? By the way, I suppose I should say something about experimental music. For those of you who haven't read John Cage's SILENCE, it's a beautiful work, even if you dislike Cage's music. It is, I think a tribute and a user's manual to the experimental sensibility, and perhaps the creative impulse at large. There is a manifesto-of-sorts, very short (for absolutely modern attention spans), re: experimental music. I think many of you would be inspired by it and enjoy it. Thanks for reading this, Scott ______________________________________________________ Get Your Private, Free Email at http://www.hotmail.com - - ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 08 Apr 1998 08:15:55 PDT From: "Fran Bacon" Subject: Re: Tim Berne & David Sanborn CALEB wrote: >This morning on my way to work I listened to Berne's album Diminutive >Mysteries, his tribute to Julius Hemphill, which includes David >Sanborn as a sideman. This seems like an uncharacteristic pairing, >and I was wondering if anyone had information on how this came to >pass, whether they played live or toured together, etc. Caleb (and all): This may be common knowledge, but I believe Tim Berne appeared on the David Sanborn-hosted late-night music variety show called NIGHT MUSIC. Seems like I heard that Sonic Youth was a guest on that same show, and they all played together. Of course, since I have only heard this, and since my memory's artless, I'll leave this to those who KNOW for sure. I know for a fact that Sanborn has played entire sets w/Spy vs. Spy, on a date or so when Berne was there, as well as JZ, as well as Pheeroan Aklaff, et al. I just got SATURATION POINT, and for those wondering, it tends, I think to dwell more in the "radical noise/sound" territory than the other Bloodcount releases (a couple of Tim's solos make me say this, please forgive the unintentional pretentious jargon-mongering); a bit more groovy than the JMT stuff, using half material from other Screwgun stuff and half material that sounds like the earlier Screwgun stuff. And, most importantly for the non-fans---it's the cheapest by far, and it's easily the best recorded of the three Bloodcount Screwgun albums. Tim Berne is great, and I'd love to know what Paraphrase sounded like on their recent NYC 5-night stand (or has that happened yet?). ______________________________________________________ Get Your Private, Free Email at http://www.hotmail.com - - ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 8 Apr 1998 16:35:56 UT From: peter_risser@cinfin.com Subject: Re[2]: Steve Reich boxset I also didn't see Telhillim. And only It's Gonna Rain or Come Out, but I can't remember which one.... Or Melodica (another tape phase piece using a quick four note sax line), but that's okay. :) PeterR === Besides PENDULUM MUSIC, that Reich has never recorded, it seems that PHASE PATTERNS was also missing from the list recently posted. Patrice. - - - - ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 8 Apr 1998 11:54:02 EDT From: FUNKADELlC Subject: dumb In a message dated 98-04-08 09:38:06 EDT, you write: << I'm not interested in odd time signatures or virtuosism, if I wanted to be shocked by someone's skills or weirdness I would go to a circus; no wonder so many of you have confessed a fondness for Yes. In my case, I prefer punk-rock. >> "duh duh duh blah blah blah i dunno what im talking about duh duh" - - ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 8 Apr 1998 11:22:09 -0500 (CDT) From: "Robert A. Pleshar" Subject: Re: Tim Berne & David Sanborn I haven't seen this mentioned yet, but an obvious connection (and one that I think was mentioned by Berne around the time the record came out) is that both Berne and Sanborn studied with Hemphill. They may even have studied at the same time, I'm not sure. Ralph - - ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 8 Apr 1998 12:31:25 -0400 (EDT) From: Ken Waxman Subject: Re: ECM I haven't heard the Crispell album, but the uniformly good reviews have said she sounds completely unlike her other CDs (Do I see the ghost of Keith Jarrett?). The upcoming Mitchell release also makes me salivate (an infant version of that band recorded on Black Saint a few years ago), just as long as the ghost of Jan Garbarek doesn't hover over the session. Ken Waxman cj649@torfree.net P.S. Steve - would the drummer you're thinkin of be Vincent Davis? On Wed, 8 Apr 1998, Steve Smith wrote: > Alan E Kayser wrote: > > > I must agree that the current version of ECM is pretty lame. However, > > way back in ancient history, the 70s, they put out quite a few excellent > > LPs. > > I agree, and I would use as proof some examples even further out than those > Alan mentioned: > > 1005 The Music Improvisation Company (Derek Bailey, Evan Parker, Hugh > Davies, Jamie Muir, Christine Jeffries) > 1013 David Holland and Derek Bailey - Improvisations for Cello and Guitar > > I note that to this day, even though they haven't reissued either of these > on CD, they still proudly proclaim Bailey as part of their lineage of great > guitarists in their print catalogs. > > and of course there's the mighty Paris Concert by Circle... > > I also think that lately things are looking up for ECM. Sure, they're still > releasing a fair amount of twaddle, but if that enables them to record the > Evan Parker electroacoustic thing, Marilyn Crispell, and the Roscoe Mitchell > Note Factory (as yet unreleased but featuring a killing frontline of > Mitchell, Hugh Ragin, and George Lewis, and two rhythm sections, Matt Shipp > and Craig Taborn on pianos, William Parker and Jaribu Shahid on basses, and > Tani Tabbal and someone I can't remember on drums - someone exceptional, I'm > just spacing right this minute) then I'll try to turn a blind eye and hope > for more. As will we all, I suspect. > > Steve Smith > ssmith36@sprynet.com > > > - > > - - ------------------------------ End of Zorn List Digest V2 #315 ******************************* To unsubscribe from zorn-list-digest, send an email to "majordomo@lists.xmission.com" with "unsubscribe zorn-list-digest" in the body of the message. For information on digests or retrieving files and old messages send "help" to the same address. 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