From: owner-zorn-list-digest@lists.xmission.com (Zorn List Digest) To: zorn-list-digest@lists.xmission.com Subject: Zorn List Digest V2 #376 Reply-To: zorn-list Sender: owner-zorn-list-digest@lists.xmission.com Errors-To: owner-zorn-list-digest@lists.xmission.com Precedence: bulk Zorn List Digest Monday, May 25 1998 Volume 02 : Number 376 In this issue: - Re: Circular Breathing Masada/Bar Kokhba questions re: Yo Miles Re: Masada/Bar Kokhba questions Re: Yo Miles RE: Circular breathing Dave Douglas serial music & why Zorn re: Julie Tippetts Re: serial music & why Zorn information about brandon ross 'the overflow' Re: information about brandon ross 'the overflow' Re: serial music & why Zorn ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Date: Fri, 22 May 1998 17:57:19 -0500 From: "Eric C. Honour, Jr." Subject: Re: Circular Breathing >Right, but Evan Parker does more than just keeping the air column >uninterrupted >for few minutes. Circular breathing is an integral part of his way to playing >the soprano. > >In the case of Zorn's solo, it was basically just that (a shrilling note held >for few minutes). > > Patrice. > >- - >Date: Fri, 22 May 1998 15:01:33 -0700 >From: dtapia@unoco.edu (Douglas Tapia) >Subject: Re: Circular breathing > >Gosh, someone's bitter, eh? I'm personally not impressed by circular >breathing either _UNLESS_ it serves a musical purpose, eg. forward motion >within an improvisition, building of tension, etc. I don't gather from >context of the quote that the fasination was so much with the _technique_ >of circular breathing so much as it's inclusion within Zorn's >"otherworldly" playing. > See now, that's exactly what I did NOT get from the context of the original post (or of the post that talked about Parker's circular breathing last week). Instead of saying something along the lines of "man, the way [he] circular-breathed was incredible: it just kept building the tension and intensity," the posts just said "wow, and they circular breathed." Patrice's comment above says more about what Parker's up to. Not just that he can circular breathe but that he uses it in some musical fashion. >Does the fact that Zorn uses a particular technique weaken his stature as a >player in your estimation? If not, why this fixation on an otherwise >inocent remark about a simple technique. God, no. I love his playing. The "fixation" reflects the fact that I find it awfully fatuous to admire the use of one particular extended technique just as a technique. If someone uses a technique particularly musically, that's completely a different story. My point was that Kenny G fans are renowned for going crazy when he circular breathes. Not because of what he's playing, but because he can do this cool trick. The posts I read here seemed to be saying the same thing. I find that annoying because I think it gets away from what's really important (to me) -- the music. In western music there are many >techniques that have been so overused that they might be considered by some >to be trite, but they are just techniques, incapabale of being intrinsiclly >good or bad. > >So again, we are left with the question of context. And it is, after all, >context that defines the value of a musical statement[snip] I agree and that was my point. It's not that I consider circular breathing to be trite, but it IS now standard. Let's get away from being amazed that people can do it and get on to an appreciation of what they're doing with it. >>BTW, yes I can and do circular breathe, so I'm not just blowing smoke here. > >This sounds like the standard academic position that "if I can do it, it >must not be really that impressive." Interesting take on academics. It's more saying that I can do it and thus I know from personal experience what is involved in it. Based on that experience, I do not find the technique itself impressive. What is being said musically is much more important. THAT'S what I would call the "standard academic position." >Or perhaps, if you have something of value to say using said technique. Exactly. >> >>Concentrating on the music and ignoring the athletics, >>Eric >> >But the athletics serve a purpose. (Bird wouldn't be Bird and Trane >wouldn't be Trane without them) The trick is to transend the pedestrian >conception of "isolated" technical mastery and put all your various bags >'o trick to work in service of the music. I agree and I play very athletic music myself. But the point is the MUSIC. The fact that Bird and Trane could both do amazing things on their horns in terms of technique pales beside the music they made with that technique. Eric - -------------------------- Eric C. Honour, Jr. Composer * Saxophonist * Graphic Designer MMus (Saxophone Performance and Composition) Northwestern University MrTheory@no.spam.nwu.edu - -------------------------- The United States has never lost a war in which mules were used. - - ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 22 May 1998 19:44:32 EDT From: D Royko Subject: Masada/Bar Kokhba questions I posted this a few days ago, and I don't think it ever made it. If it did, I apologize for the repeat. I'm new to the list (though not so new to JZ's music), so these questions were possibly covered some time ago, and if so, sorry for the repitition. Four questions: 1- I purchased Bar Kokhba immediately upon its release. Soon after, I read (I believe in rmb) that a second version was issued that differed in one track. Is this accurate, and if so, what exactly is the difference? And, is there any way to tell the difference (visually) between the two versions of the set? 2- Is the version of "Bikkurim" that appears on the various artists anthology "Festival of Lights" (Six Degrees/Island) the same version that appears on Bar Kokhba, or is it a different version/take? 3- Similar question with "Ziphim" from the "Klezmer '93" album (Knitting Factory): Is this a live version unique to that CD (if so, how is it?), or is it a track pulled from Masada "3" on DIW? 4- I understand that a CD called "Zattere Alle Deriva" on the More Music (Italy) label contains an alternate take of (Masada #3's) "Ziphim". Is this accurate? If so, how is this take, and how might one get a copy of this disc? What else is on the disc? Thanks, Dave Royko - - ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 22 May 1998 11:36:42 -0700 (PDT) From: leon lee Subject: re: Yo Miles what was said: From: "M.A. Piper" Subject: YO MILES! Hi all, I have just updated the Henry Kaiser website with the liner notes from the forthcoming YO MILES!, an album of Miles Davis interpretations by Henry and Wadada Leo Smith. Included in the notes is "Procession of the Great Ancestry," a beautiful piece of poetry by Mr. Smith, and a great essay by Enrico Merlin, noted Davis authority. is this YO MILES! the same project that is the 70's miles tribute w/ nels cline, kaiser, rova sax 4, leo smith etc etc. is the poetry by l.smith or is it h.smith, his wife who is a poet? if it is, when it is available. if not, what is the rumored release that i'm talking about? anyone? queries: what is Human Feel up to? what was the audience reception of Milford Graves opening for Sonic Youth? is there pt.2 of panthalassa w/ drum/bass remixes? is laswell planning on doing more bob marley dubs? so many questions... also, can anyone refer me to some serevino gazelloni? or any other flute recordings, readings, transcriptions etc etc. thanks leon listening to 'interboogieology' -- what about this amrta contreras? who is she? - - ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 22 May 1998 17:34:08 -0700 From: "Patrice L. Roussel" Subject: Re: Masada/Bar Kokhba questions Hi Dave, On Fri, 22 May 1998 19:44:32 EDT D Royko wrote: > > I posted this a few days ago, and I don't think it ever made it. If it did, I > apologize for the repeat. > > I'm new to the list (though not so new to JZ's music), so these questions were > possibly covered some time ago, and if so, sorry for the repitition. > > Four questions: > > 1- I purchased Bar Kokhba immediately upon its release. Soon after, I read (I > believe in rmb) that a second version was issued that differed in one track. > Is this accurate, and if so, what exactly is the difference? And, is there any > way to tell the difference (visually) between the two versions of the set? We would have to download the files on a computer drive and compare them :-). > 2- Is the version of "Bikkurim" that appears on the various artists anthology > "Festival of Lights" (Six Degrees/Island) the same version that appears on Bar > Kokhba, or is it a different version/take? > > 3- Similar question with "Ziphim" from the "Klezmer '93" album (Knitting > Factory): Is this a live version unique to that CD (if so, how is it?), or is > it a track pulled from Masada "3" on DIW? It can't be the same because KLEZMER 1993 was released in 1993 and GIMEL was recorded in 1994. Also, one version is 7:06 minutes long, and the one GIMEL is 9:17. > 4- I understand that a CD called "Zattere Alle Deriva" on the More Music > (Italy) label contains an alternate take of (Masada #3's) "Ziphim". Is this > accurate? If so, how is this take, and how might one get a copy of this disc? > What else is on the disc? - ------------------------------------------------------------------------------ 195 - ZATTERE ALLA DERIVA: various artists This record features John Zorn & Masada, Die Knoedel, Iva Bittova, Lingua Franca & Val Resia Ensemble, Quartetto Vocale Giovanna Marini, Pascal Comelade & Bel Canto Orquestra, Phil Minton & Veryan Weston, Fred Frith & Bob Ostertag, B-Shops for the Poor, Rale, Makam, Amy Denio, Boris Kovac & Ritual Nova Ensemble. John Zorn plays on one track with Masada: 2/ Abidan (Zorn) 6:51 Recorded by Jim Anderson at Power Station, New York City on June 22, 1994 John Zorn: alto; Joey Baron: drums; Greg Cohen: bass; Dave Douglas: trumpet. 1995 - More Music (Italy), MOMus 003 (CD) Note: the Masada track is an outtake from a Masada studio session (it was a second take previously unreleased). - ------------------------------------------------------------------------------ Patrice. - - ------------------------------ Date: Sat, 23 May 1998 02:13:20 -0400 From: Steve Smith Subject: Re: Yo Miles leon lee wrote: > is this YO MILES! the same project that is the 70's miles tribute w/ nels > cline, kaiser, rova sax 4, leo smith etc etc. Yes. Due out July or later on Shanachie, 2 CD. > what is Human Feel up to? Not much... all of the members are keeping so busy with other projects that HF is on a back burner right now... > what was the audience reception of Milford > Graves opening for Sonic Youth? Doesn't happen until June 8. I'll be seeing Milford tonight in a quartet with Charles Gayle, Kidd Jordan and William Parker... chewy! > is there pt.2 of panthalassa w/ drum/bass > remixes? The drum'n'bass remixes may not be commerically available, or they may be pressed as a vinyl only piece to be added to LP pressings of Panthalassa being imported from England. I'll keep you posted. There are four remix tracks planned. > is laswell planning on doing more bob marley dubs? Don't know, but if Panthalassa sells well Columbia plans to let Bill play around with the Herbie Hancock and Carlos Santana archives... Steve Smith ssmith36@sprynet.com - - ------------------------------ Date: Sat, 23 May 1998 09:57:50 +0200 From: "Artur Nowak" Subject: RE: Circular breathing > In the case of Zorn's solo, it was basically just that (a > shrilling note held for few minutes). So, Zorn likes to impress people! Pure technique seems to be pretty important for him. ______________________________________________________________________ Artur Nowak (arno@silesia.top.DEATHTOSPAMMERS.pl) (spam filter in use) www.silesia.top.pl/~arno/emd/pl40/artists/f/frisell_bill/default.htm For MS Internet Explorer 4 only! - - ------------------------------ Date: Sat, 23 May 1998 11:05:12 -0700 (PDT) From: "Cappy D'Angelo" Subject: Dave Douglas Does anyone know how to get info on Dave Douglas tour dates? Trying to confirm rumours of a June 4 show in Vancouver... Cappy D'Angelo Student at Law - Intellectual Property Dabbler in Recording - Sonic Solutions Digital Editing and Mastering Twanger of Guitar & Blower of Eb Horns of Alto & Bari Persuasion Victoria, B.C., CANADA - - ------------------------------ Date: Sun, 24 May 1998 22:50:53 +0200 From: stamil@t-online.de (Chris Genzel) Subject: serial music & why Zorn Hi all, Sorry that this comes in so late, but I was somewhat behind with reading all the digests. Just an afterthought to two recent discussions: 1) The article on serial music invented by the Nazis: I guess this expands on an idea William S. Burroughs had, see "The Western Lands" for reference: "Musical intelligence. Agent attends a concert and receives his instructions." 2) The question of why we like the music we hear: I don't really care why I like the stuff I like. I just like it, and I'm feeling very comfortable with this. The "why"s and "how"s are not only different from person to person, but also for me from piece to piece. Question: do you like watching the stars? why? Kind regards, - Chris. --------------------------------------------- * Chris Genzel --- stamil@t-online.de * * Homepage & Herbie Hancock discography at: * * http://home.t-online.de/home/stamil/ * --------------------------------------------- - - ------------------------------ Date: Sun, 24 May 1998 20:05:15 EDT From: CuneiWay Subject: re: Julie Tippetts Brian Olewnick wrote: >Subject: Julie Tippetts--Sunset Glow >It's probably been asked before, possibly by me, but does anyone know if >this is ever scheduled to make it to disc? I think it's owned by RCA, now BMG, & it's doubtful that they will issue it. It *IS* a great album. Maybe I should ask Julie who owns it. >Carla Bley's 'Tropic Appetites' (and when is >THAT going to be released to disc!?!?) stand out as extraordinary. This I unfortunately have the answer for; I spoke to Carla's assistant about the possibility of reissuing this project & other old o/p Watt releases about 18 - 24 months ago, & was basically told that they are not really interested in having anyone else other than ECM do it [even though we can all die of old age before THAT will happen]. Steve Cuneiform Records - - ------------------------------ Date: Sun, 24 May 1998 20:31:02 -0400 (EDT) From: Christopher Hamilton Subject: Re: serial music & why Zorn On Sun, 24 May 1998, Chris Genzel wrote: > I don't really care why I like the stuff I like. I just like it, and I'm > feeling very comfortable with this. The "why"s and "how"s are not only > different from person to person, but also for me from piece to piece. > Question: do you like watching the stars? why? Trying to answer this question might well teach you something important about yourself or the stars or both. I'm regularly surprised by the anti-intellectualism adopted by so many people when it comes to music. Chris Hamilton - - ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 25 May 1998 08:36:32 +0200 From: Stefan Verstraeten Subject: information about brandon ross 'the overflow' Dear Zornheads, A few days ago, I was listening to some old Live at the KF -cd's, and one track really knocked me out. It was a track called 'the ugly waiter' and was performed by Brandon Ross' the overflow (consisting of Ross himself on guitar, Gibbs on bass and Bowne on drums). Anyway, My question was: does someone know if this band put out some cd's and on what label.... Thank you very much..... - -- Stefan Verstraeten Licentiaat Rechten & MBA Mandaat - assistent Rechten Faculteit T.E.W. - H.I. U.F.S.I.A. - Universiteit Antwerpen Bureau B - 421 Prinsstraat 13 B - 2000 Antwerpen Belgium (Europe) TEL.: +32 3 220 41 47 FAX : +32 3 220 47 99 GSM : +32 477 35 37 09 sverstraeten@ufsia.ac.be http://www.ufsia.ac.be - - ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 25 May 1998 02:20:35 -0400 From: Tom Pratt Subject: Re: information about brandon ross 'the overflow' Stefan Verstraeten wrote: > > Dear Zornheads, > > A few days ago, I was listening to some old Live at the KF -cd's, and > one track really knocked me out. It was a track called 'the ugly waiter' > and was performed by Brandon Ross' the overflow (consisting of Ross > himself on guitar, Gibbs on bass and Bowne on drums). > > Anyway, My question was: does someone know if this band put out some > cd's and on what label.... > > Thank you very much..... The Overflow recorded an album in '89 or '90, but it remains unreleased. They sort of evolved into a new and as of yet unrecorded group, Harriet Tubman, with JT Lewis instead of Dougie Bowne (who I think is still not well). -Tom Pratt - - ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 26 May 1998 18:14:02 -0400 From: "Snap" Subject: Re: serial music & why Zorn >On Sun, 24 May 1998, Chris Genzel wrote: > >> I don't really care why I like the stuff I like. I just like it, and I'm >> feeling very comfortable with this. The "why"s and "how"s are not only >> different from person to person, but also for me from piece to piece. >> Question: do you like watching the stars? why? And on that very same day Mr. Hamilton mordantly wrote: > Trying to answer this question might well teach you something important >about yourself or the stars or both. I'm regularly surprised by the >anti-intellectualism adopted by so many people when it comes to music. And I myself am not at all surprised by the unerring elitism and two-dimensional attempts at aesthetic erudition adopted by those on this list who have the unmitigated propensity to objectify and thus coronate their personal system of valuing a medium of art which is wholly palatial, by that I mean pertinent to one's own tastes, and even at times to one's own causality - a sequence of events and fixations in life may lead up to one's preference of a genre over another; an observation as demanded, I know, but entirely arbitrary when all that really might matter to a person is gastro-intestinal bliss. So, are we expected to scribble out an exhaustive dissertation on peach cobbler prior to shoving the spoon into our mouths? Hmm? (Perhaps it's the color in relation to the granular state which easily adheres to the silverware, our mouths delighting in the taboo of segregating the clustery substance from its envoy) Because some of us here are not entirely concerned with polemics as much as a nice sculpture of sound, the likes of whose aural properties may merely do us cathartic good, or may even, yes, lean us toward introspection. But that, as Chris Genzel so honestly put, may vary from piece to piece. That you failed to extract from what he had said about his attraction to Zorn's recordings shows that your attention is channeled toward some red herring of a demagogic ideal - or ideals - with which some of us may be unaware (they say age is requisite to wisdom) and therefore unconcerned. For Chris Genzel HAS just told us why he likes Zorn's music: FOR NON-INTELLECTUAL REASONS. [In tandem with some of his personality traits, perhaps, albeit intrinsically, the Vedantic method of defrocking things like "science" and "reason"(which has been stood upon its head for quite some time now) clearly his way of dispensing with demons of sophistry and possibly even enriching his listening pleasure.] If that doesn't seem like a sufficient reason to keep the headphones on, then one probably doesn't exist. Sure, I could tell you why I am drawn to a particular recording and tangentally summon causal ramifications by giving my Psyche an autopsy or two, but I choose to more often than not just let Orpheus twang away at his fucking lyre. Whether I am of Thracian descent as he was, or that my father-in-law's brand-name company is responsible for his instrument matters not to us sonic sybarites. The last thing we need is a musical Rush Limbaugh (who is a big fat idiot) flinging his corpulence that way and this, parading down his rose-strewn path of righteousness, kicking all thorns onto those who see the path not as an end in itself, but as a means toward some nectar of sound. Now, whether your remark about Chris Gunzel's refusal to extrapolate the behavior of his tympanic membranes was intentionally supercillious or just impulsively thought up and typed in casual, elbow-in-the-side amiability determines whether this obliquy of mine is likewise hawkish or aloof. Suo, Snap (who just heard a certain raga exude what he was told was intended to be regret . . . ) - - ------------------------------ End of Zorn List Digest V2 #376 ******************************* To unsubscribe from zorn-list-digest, send an email to "majordomo@lists.xmission.com" with "unsubscribe zorn-list-digest" in the body of the message. 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