From: owner-zorn-list-digest@lists.xmission.com (Zorn List Digest) To: zorn-list-digest@lists.xmission.com Subject: Zorn List Digest V2 #414 Reply-To: zorn-list Sender: owner-zorn-list-digest@lists.xmission.com Errors-To: owner-zorn-list-digest@lists.xmission.com Precedence: bulk Zorn List Digest Tuesday, July 7 1998 Volume 02 : Number 414 In this issue: - Re: Postmodern Re: postmodernism RE: Experimenta help Tony Levin... Zorn-adorno Re: Postmodern Ornette news Sabbath in Paradise Re: Sabbath in Paradise Re: Sabbath in Paradise mike patton @ tonic Cypher 7 Christian Marclay AUCTION - FREE JAZZ/AVANT GARDE Beefheart ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Date: Mon, 6 Jul 1998 12:33:47 +0200 From: "J.T. de Boer" Subject: Re: Postmodern > So, those of such a mind then notice that a > good deal of "alternative" music is, occasionally at least, self- > conscious of its commodity status (this is argued endlessly about > Zappa). While that's true, I hardly think this the only or the best > source of value in the music. No, of course not. Actually, I'm more concerned with the aesthetic values in a postmodern sense which can *possibly* contribute to a way of listening or thinking. I think the issue regarding Zorn and postmodernism isn't about the position of it in the marketplace, but about seeing his music as legitimate art and therefore the possibility of using aesthetic theories to get a deeper understanding of his music. I'm not that familiar with postmodern theories, but in Holland quite some articles about this issue have been written: for instance a comparison of Berio's "rendering" technique and Zorn's use of the music of Morricone. > Nor do I think Adorno's theories, in > this sphere, very helpful. When it's solely about the music I think they are, at least as something to react to in a negative way. There's an article in The Musical Quarterly (spring 1992, volume 76, number one) by Theodore A. Gracyk, titled "Adorno, Jazz and the Aesthetics of Popular Music, which takes a very good standpoint against Adorno's ideas about popular music with the use of his own theories. Art-music regarding to Adorno has three aspects: atonality, social relevance and freedom of form. They all come back in Zorn's music and in jazz from the 50's, but Adorno never said he was wrong. In this view he's characteristic for a certain behaviour very common to aestheticians and sociologists in postmodern society: the struggle for legitimicy within the high-arts and the fear of the dissapearing borders between popular and non-popular art. > PS I think Stam fouled Ortega. But I was rooting for the Dutch. .... Jeroen de Boer - - ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 6 Jul 1998 16:00:09 +0200 From: "J.T. de Boer" Subject: Re: postmodernism Eric C. Honour wrote: > I think that most of the academics in the U.S. with whom I am familiar are > far too busy discussing this year's World Cup match-up between (who is it > again?) Upper Voltaire and East Madagascar to get swept up in any sort of > mass-media debunking of postmodernism. Talking about postmodernism... > I mean, you aren't going to tell me that Ligeti's music is any better than oh, say, > a couple of guys > getting up and playing a bunch of noise in a NYC night club like the > Knitting Factory, are you? Well, I don't know (and I must admit I'm a Ligeti-fanatic). Isn't the statement "why bother, anyting is possible" or "everything is art" something you would only expect to be said by someone who isn't really *into* postmodernism? I mean, these are statements that, imho, are the most extreme result of a negative explaination of postmodern theories. Sure, boundaries are dissapearing, but aesthetic taste too? In the case of music it seems that aesthetic values that orginally focused on legitimate art are now also used to describe and understand music that belongs to the popular arts or somewhere in between. In this way you can still argue that Ligeti's music is better. This actually makes me think: what's more important, using postmodernism as a global way of thinking (i.e. accepting all kinds of non-art as art, because everythink may be art) or as a theoretical tool for a specific artform (this is postmodern music, because... (and then focusing only on musical aspects)). I don't even know if there is any literature about " art-specific tools", but if they exist, do they radically differ from modern aesthetic theories? > P.S. BTW, to avoid insult to you, I'm assuming that you are familiar with Jenny Jones's show and recognize the post as a (very) humorous fabrication. Yes I am! > Eric C. Honour, Jr. Jeroen de Boer - - ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 6 Jul 1998 11:29:00 -0300 From: "Claudio Koremblit" Subject: RE: Experimenta Estimado Pablo, Experimenta atraviesa un abismo, como lo explico la carta escrita y firmada por muchos musicos argentinos, que fue enviada a la lista hace algunos dias, pero NO HA SIDO CANCELADO porque esa decision no puede ser tomada por las autoridades del gobierno de Buenos Aires. Dentro de algunos dias habra novedades sobre Experimenta 98 ya que llevamos adelante numerosas gestiones para recuperar el presupuesto asignado y luego retirado por las autoridades. Gracias por el interes. (sorry for the spanish but is necesary be clear at least for the writer of the message). best Claudio K More information about Experimenta: http://www.datamarkets.com.ar/musicaclub/proyec.htm http://www.clarin.com.ar/diario/98-05-20/c-00401d.htm http://www.lanacion.com.ar/98/05/31/nota.asp?pag=s07..htm http://www.clarin.com.ar/diario/98-06-09/c-00301d.htm > ------------------------------ > > Date: Fri, 3 Jul 1998 17:15:16 -0300 (GMT-0300) > From: perojo@unsl.edu.ar > Subject: Experimenta > > well experimenta 98 in B.A. was cancellated, check the info .. > > /.Pablo. > ------------------------------ - - ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 6 Jul 1998 14:47:08 +0200 From: "J.T. de Boer" Subject: help Tony Levin... I saw this message from Tony Levin (King Crimson) on his homepage. Maybe someone was at the KF and taped the show or knows someone who has? A Special Request from Tony Levin "An unusual request: Last Saturday night, at the Knitting Factory in NYC, the second show started with a band improv that went GREAT. Sometimes things just click like that, and it comes out like a finished piece. After the show, I ran to Robert, our sound mixer, to assure that the ADAT's had been working. They hadn't! Neither had the DAT player. In other words, we not only have no good recording of the piece, we don't even have a tape to remind us how it went! We tried the same thing on Sunday, at the Boston House of Blues -- completely different. So... to get to the point, my practical nature tells me that SOMEONE in the audience MUST have taped that performance. And I'd like to ask if, as a favor, anyone who has a tape of that first piece in the second set could mail us a copy of it, so we can learn the piece for our next album. " Address: Papabear Records, PO Box 498, Woodstock, NY 12498. "thanks." Jeroen de Boer - - ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 06 Jul 1998 05:45:19 -0700 From: "Marcin Gokieli" Subject: Zorn-adorno Sean Wilkie send a comment about adorno's views of music, to which i would like add my two cents - -BTW, some two years ago there was a discussion - which i started -on this list about similarities and differences between fripp and zorn. At some point, somebody used this 2cnts exdpression, someone replied, and added that he also does, BUT, as he is canadian, he adds tho canadian cents, so it's a little bit less... Sop someone remarked they could start to collect thes cents to buy a japanese edition 3cd version of painkiller... "what i didn't know about the 3 cd edition" "oh well, it cost $$..."... Thats how Crim discussion ended. It's beautiful to see the strange manner in which topics come and go, and reemerge on such lists... But, back to the subject of my mail... I believe that adorno's vision of culture, society and value is completly different from the one present (or rather inmplied by)in John Zorn's work. In fact, Adorno's critique of mass culture as included in dialectics of the enlightment is based on a kind of "knowledge what is right". His (OK, he wrote the book with horkheimmer, it's not only his fault...) vison relies heavyly on the idea of absolute musical standard, and what is even more importatnt - a kind of hate towards ordinary people's use of music. He knows what music is (or at least he thinks he does), so he can declare what is right and what is wrong, on the other side - JZ does not, so he tries to DO some interesting, create good music, and by this fact, redifine to some point what "good music" really is. JZ treats sounds; all kinds of music people do - and kinds of things people do with music - as something interesting, as a new, intersting point, something which is interesting. For adorno, making music is enetring a kind of competition with the classics. for Zorn it's a infinite creation. I think that two authors can provide a good theoretical background for an analisys of the kind of music we are interested in: Alasdair MacIntyre with hi s virtue ethics that rely in an important way on a kind of an antiinstitutional, living tradition, and respect for people passions, and Kantian ethics with its equal respect for ordinary and the idea of "act from duty", by which we could analyse the differnence between other musics and the one(s) JZ does. see you and good luck holland - you're going to win the whole thing... - --- Marcin Gokieli mkkgokieli@mailexcite.com "If adversity and hopeless sorrow have completely taken away the relish for life; if the unfortunate one, strong in mind, indignant at his fate rather than desponding or dejected, wishes for death,and yet preserves his life without loving it- not from inclination or fear, but from duty- then his maxim has a moral worth." :-) Immanuel Kant, 1724-1804 Fundamental Principles of the Metaphysic of Morals Free web-based email, Forever, From anywhere! http://www.mailexcite.com - - ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 06 Jul 1998 05:57:17 -0700 From: "Marcin Gokieli" Subject: Re: Postmodern - --- Jeroen de Boer wrote There's an article in The >Musical Quarterly (spring 1992, volume 76, number one) by Theodore A. >Gracyk, titled "Adorno, Jazz and the Aesthetics of Popular Music, >which takes a very good standpoint against Adorno's ideas about >popular music with the use of his own theories. Art-music regarding >to Adorno has three aspects: atonality, social relevance and freedom >of form. They all come back in Zorn's music and in jazz from the >50's, but Adorno never said he was wrong. >In this view he's characteristic for a certain behaviour very common >to aestheticians and sociologists in postmodern society: the >struggle for legitimicy within the high-arts and the fear of the >dissapearing borders between popular and non-popular art. I complety agree with you. But remark that's this man intellectual stanpoint implies such attitude: the idea of magical-metaphisycal knowledge some (ie adorno, horkheiimer, and maybe, to a certain degree, heidegger) have, and which is inaccessible, and has nothing to do, with the ordinary man thionking about the world (compare him to JL Austin, late Wittgenstein, or even Kant). >> PS I think Stam fouled Ortega. But I was rooting for the Dutch. >.... no he did not... Marcin Gokieli mkkgokieli@mailexcite.com "IF I HAD KNOWN IT WAS HARMLESS I WOULD HAVE KILLED IT MYSELF" Philip K. Dick, "A Scanner Darkly" Free web-based email, Forever, From anywhere! http://www.mailexcite.com - - ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 6 Jul 1998 12:35:44 -0400 (EDT) From: Ken Waxman Subject: Ornette news Here's an interesting item I picked up on the Harmolodic site: Ornette Coleman will be playing the Umbria (Italy) Jazz Fest July 14, 15 and 16 with three different groups. One will feature Prime Time and dancers and rappers; one will feature Ornette and Indian classical musicians; and on the first night he will perform in a quartet setting with Billy Higgins (d); Charlie Haden (b) and --wait for it -- *Lee Konitz* (as). Not only has (to my knowledge) Ornette never performed with Konitz before, I don't think there are any examples of him *ever* playing with another altoist. (The Blue Note sessions with Jackie McLean featured OC on tmpt and vi). Watch the categories melting Ken Waxman cj649@torfree.net - - ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 06 Jul 1998 13:13:09 -0400 From: Matt Lyon Subject: Sabbath in Paradise About a month ago at the Toronto Jewish Film Festival I attended a screening of SABBATH IN PARADISE, a documentary about the development of Jewish music. Mostly New York artists are featured ranging in style from traditional Klezmer to "modern jazz" (for lack of a better term). Zorn scored the film and appears in several scenes. The are some great scenes of Zorn and co. at KF and some solo guitar. Unfortunately Zorn is never interviewed. Because of this the film was basically ruined for me, as he was the only reason I attended. Ha s anybody else seen it? It's worth a look just to see a bit of Zorn offstage and at band practice. the film is listed on the Internet Movie Database, http://www.imdb.com if you're interested in seeing the featured artists and film crew. - -- Matthew Lyon mlyon@aw.sgi.com Alias|Wavefront Inc. (416) 362-8558 ext.8565 210 King Street East, Toronto M5A 1J7 Fax: (416) 369-6131 http://www.aw.sgi.com - - ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 06 Jul 1998 10:17:51 -0700 From: "Patrice L. Roussel" Subject: Re: Sabbath in Paradise On Mon, 06 Jul 1998 13:13:09 -0400 Matt Lyon wrote: > > > About a month ago at the Toronto Jewish Film Festival I attended a > screening of SABBATH IN PARADISE, a documentary about the development of > Jewish music. Mostly New York artists are featured ranging in style > from traditional Klezmer to "modern jazz" (for lack of a better term). > Zorn scored the film and appears in several scenes. The are some great > scenes of Zorn and co. at KF and some solo guitar. Unfortunately Zorn > is never interviewed. Because of this the film was basically ruined for ^^^^^^ Ruined? Simply because Zorn is quiet (for a change :-)? > me, as he was the only reason I attended. Ha s anybody else seen it? > It's worth a look just to see a bit of Zorn offstage and at band > practice. You know, there are plenty of things worth to watch even if Zorn does not appear in them... Patrice. - - ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 06 Jul 1998 13:28:13 -0400 From: Matt Lyon Subject: Re: Sabbath in Paradise I wasn't trying to imply that I only see things which Zorn appears in, but the fact of the matter is that I wouldn't have attended this documentary had Zorn not appeared. I felt it simply didn't hold up as a film. It was unengaging and offered little insight into Jewish music. The film had its moments, but overall I was unimpressed. That is why I say it's only worth seeing for the Zorn content. Patrice L. Roussel wrote: > On Mon, 06 Jul 1998 13:13:09 -0400 Matt Lyon wrote: > > > > > > About a month ago at the Toronto Jewish Film Festival I attended a > > screening of SABBATH IN PARADISE, a documentary about the development of > > Jewish music. Mostly New York artists are featured ranging in style > > from traditional Klezmer to "modern jazz" (for lack of a better term). > > Zorn scored the film and appears in several scenes. The are some great > > scenes of Zorn and co. at KF and some solo guitar. Unfortunately Zorn > > is never interviewed. Because of this the film was basically ruined for > ^^^^^^ > Ruined? Simply because Zorn is quiet (for a change :-)? > > > me, as he was the only reason I attended. Ha s anybody else seen it? > > It's worth a look just to see a bit of Zorn offstage and at band > > practice. > > You know, there are plenty of things worth to watch even if Zorn does not > appear in them... > > Patrice. - -- Matthew Lyon mlyon@aw.sgi.com Alias|Wavefront Inc. (416) 362-8558 ext.8565 210 King Street East, Toronto M5A 1J7 Fax: (416) 369-6131 http://www.aw.sgi.com - - ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 06 Jul 1998 12:37:40 -0500 From: jtalbot@massart.edu Subject: mike patton @ tonic did anyone make it to the Mike Patton show at Tonic on saturday june 27th? if so could you please email me privately. thanks jason jtalbot@massart.edu - - ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 6 Jul 1998 22:31:10 +0200 From: stamil@t-online.de (Chris Genzel) Subject: Cypher 7 Hi! Is anybody able to give me the text (it's French, so I don't understand too much) of "Message Important" on _Cypher 7: Security_? Please? Kind regards, - Chris. --------------------------------------------- * Chris Genzel --- stamil@t-online.de * * Homepage & Herbie Hancock Discography at: * * http://home.t-online.de/home/stamil/ * --------------------------------------------- - - ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 6 Jul 1998 15:04:05 -0700 (PDT) From: tosh@loop.com (Tosh) Subject: Christian Marclay Yesterday I purchased a copy of MORE ENCORES by Christian Marclay. I have heard his name for years, but never heard his music. I am totally knocked out by this cd. I think it is a beautiful piece of music. - ----------------- Tosh Berman TamTam Books - ---------------- - - ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 7 Jul 1998 11:24:50 +0800 From: numbat@vianet.net.au (Sibree/Wilkes) Subject: AUCTION - FREE JAZZ/AVANT GARDE A reminder that this auction closes July 9. Email me for details if required. Billy - - ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 7 Jul 1998 08:25:40 +0100 From: ScottRussell Subject: Beefheart This mouthwatering nugget was forwarded to me recently. Perhaps there are some people out there who could contribute to it: > Here's something from Dean Blackwood at Revenant: > > "Revenant's 4-cd hardcover book set of unissued/rare Beefheart tracks > has > now been scheduled for November release through our distributor Koch. > This > means that we need to have all tracks, texts and materials in hand and > squared away by August 1, which is only 5 weeks away. This will give > us the > full month of August to do the layout and mastering, so that we can > submit > everything to press by the beginning of September, allowing 8 weeks > for > pressing, printing and bindery. The 4 cds will be housed in a > foil-stamped, > cloth-bound hardcover 64+ page book, so it'll take a bit of time to > lay it > out but should prove to be a whopper." > If you want to contribute, contact Dean at revenant1@earthlink.net. If > you > have specific material such as photos, recordings, concert posters, > etc., > contact timmdaly@aol.com as he's managing those materials for Dean. > Scott Russell - - ------------------------------ End of Zorn List Digest V2 #414 ******************************* To unsubscribe from zorn-list-digest, send an email to "majordomo@lists.xmission.com" with "unsubscribe zorn-list-digest" in the body of the message. For information on digests or retrieving files and old messages send "help" to the same address. Do not use quotes in your message. A non-digest (direct mail) version of this list is also available; to subscribe to that instead, replace all instances of "zorn-list-digest" in the commands above with "zorn-list". 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