From: owner-zorn-list-digest@lists.xmission.com (Zorn List Digest) To: zorn-list-digest@lists.xmission.com Subject: Zorn List Digest V2 #799 Reply-To: zorn-list Sender: owner-zorn-list-digest@lists.xmission.com Errors-To: owner-zorn-list-digest@lists.xmission.com Precedence: bulk Zorn List Digest Friday, November 26 1999 Volume 02 : Number 799 In this issue: - Re: PSF/DIW/etc. SY Re: SY re: RADICAL jewish culture.... no way Tr: RADICAL jewish culture.... no way Judy Dunaway/DECEMBER 11 Re: some corrections (radical jewish culture) please contact me Judy Dunaway -- correction RE: some corrections (radical jewish culture) Re: sonic youth 20th century Paul Bley autobiography ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Date: Fri, 26 Nov 1999 10:30:30 EST From: JonAbbey2@aol.com Subject: Re: PSF/DIW/etc. In a message dated 11/25/99 10:55:57 PM, tpratt9@yahoo.com writes: << Along with the TMT double-disc, the best recording of Kosugi's music readily available on CD is 'Violin Solo 1980 NYC' on P-Vine. A bizarre combination of Albert Ayler's primitive, exaggerated expression and Derek Bailey-style phrasing, all played on violin. I think it's pretty breathtaking stuff. >> Tom's a bigger fan of Kosugi's solo work than myself. I find both the P-Vine CD and the solo one on Lovely a bit on the dry side, although, to be fair, I've only heard the P-Vine one once. a few more Kosugi-related notes: 1) another great CD, although it's probably impossible to find now, is the Group Ongaku (HEAR sound art library), in which Kosugi and friends anticipate AMM's abstract collective style with recordings made in '60 and '61. Yasunao Tone, another Fluxus member, who has a CD on Tzadik, is also a member of this collective. 2) Kosugi performs on a lot of the new Sonic Youth double CD of classical pieces which was briefly discussed here the other day. 3) Kosugi is also the musical director for Merce Cunningham's dance company. both he and Jim O'Rourke play at every (or almost every) Cunningham performance, along with one or two additional musicians. Jon www.erstwhilerecords.com - - ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 26 Nov 99 10:43:08 -0500 From: kurt_gottschalk@scni.com Subject: SY Caleb asks: Sonic Youth has a new 2cd set of 20th century classical works (Cage, Wolff, Reich, etc.) which is available from most of the usual sources. I'm unfamiliar with their music, but I had always placed them in some vague pop landscape. Can anyone provide any background on the group, how this album fits with the rest of their output, and perhaps even a review of the album? Gawd, it seems like I always get myself in trouble with these things. That's OK, it was kinda fun having everybody disagree with me about Arto. SY were kinda my link to free music when I was in college -- especially when "Daydream Nation" came out back around 87. I think of them as essentially a pop band as well, but that shouldn't take away from the individual members' abilities. Thurston and Lee were playing together in Glenn Branca's guitar orchestras before SY started, and their "freer" side projects are extensive. (Zorn, William Hooker, Susie Ibarra, Andrea Parkins, David Watson are the first ones that pop to mind.) They also do a lot to promote free music. Milford Graves and Masonna opened for them last year, they showed home-movie tour footage including Haino performance at Tonic, etc. The band is stretching out, however, and learning some interesting ways to bridle the noise assault of their early stuff. The three self produced eps they've already put out on their label (SY1, 2, 3, with similar cover designs as the new one) are really great and not at all pop. I was leary at first, but when I finally got around to them I was very surprised. They are definitely worth picking up if you're interested in them but not the song-oriented stuff, and I think sell for around $10 ea. I haven't heard the new one yet. As for the pop band, the best records for my money are Evol, Sister and Daydream Nation, which came out in succession in the 80s. These are the best examples of strong songwriting dissolving into extended washes. In the 90s, some of their records (like Dirty and Goo) started focusing too much on the songs over the jams, and suffered for it. The early stuff (Sonic Death, Confusion is Sex) is quite rough and noisy. Good, but not great. I've read one review of the new disc, saying it was really great and that it was a shame that they're not on a major label. I suspect a lot of people might be confused about the SY label, but I don't think I am. They have a pretty sweetheart deal with Geffen, where they are free to experiment and release stuff even with the SY name outside of their contract with Geffen. It seems they reserve Geffen for the songy stuff, and use their label for more experimental stuff. I'm sure I don't need to say 'correct me if I'm wrong.' There's also a SY instrumental release called "Silver" which is all feedback loops. Its penchant-revealing, but unessential. - - ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 26 Nov 1999 10:51:26 EST From: JonAbbey2@aol.com Subject: Re: SY In a message dated 11/26/99 10:43:42 AM, kurt_gottschalk@scni.com writes: << As for the pop band, the best records for my money are Evol, Sister and Daydream Nation, which came out in succession in the 80s. >> one interesting thing about Sonic Youth is that, more than any other band that I'm aware of, everyone seems to have different favorite records. mine are Dirty and Washing Machine, where I think their earlier experiments start to really come to fruition. I think that the epic song The Diamond Sea on Washing Machine is the best thing they've ever done. but as always, your mileage may vary... Jon www.erstwhilerecords.com - - ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 26 Nov 99 11:15:16 -0500 From: kurt_gottschalk@scni.com Subject: re: RADICAL jewish culture.... no way I'm not going to presume too many opinions here about orthodoxy and what it means, since I'm hardly versed in the subject. But I really want to thank Stefan for the post. It shows an interesting and I think important aspect of JZ's work of the past five years. Whatever Zorn's intentions (marketing ploy, uninformed romanticization, or more simply the personal definitions I believe he is attempting), he must realize, he certainly realizes, that identifying himself so closely with Jewish culture, and labeling it "radical" opens himself up to assumption, insults and ostracization. From what I know about Zorn, I doubt he cares. And from what I've seen at concerts -- especially when it's something like chamber Masada or at a venue like Merkin Hall in NYC -- he's bringing in a new audience as well. And in general, his audience has clearly grown. But I've also met more than one person recently into "the scene" who say they don't like "that Jewish stuff" that he does, which always feels a little anti-Semetic in tone to me (why not just "that stuff"?). And while I haven't seen grafitti at Tonic of the Knit about his Jewishness per se, one has to wonder why people bother to bash him on bathroom stalls. All of that just means that when someone recognizes through art a certain aspect of the world, they are at risk of being considered an advocate, or even a zealot. I'm sure jazz musicians who connect themselves to African cultures have suffered the same. And right-thinking folks (if you don't mind the phrase) could easily make some unfortunate and irrelevant arguments against that sort of cultural identification as well. Not that I've heard it said, and not that "Africa" is a distinct single tradition the way Orthodox Jewdaism is, but someone could criticize American jazz players who use African names/instruments/ fabrics, saying that they don't know what they're talking about, and these are cultures that practice slavery and female genital mutilation and are misogynistic and violent, etc. It's dangerous to assume that an artist who dresses a certain way or uses words from a certain language is therby advocating all of the practices of that culture. But its also easy to understand where someone from or with experience in those cultures could be made to feel uncomfortable. My real point, though, is that I'm glad to be on this list, where people get beyond fandom and feel as if they can raise the sort of questions that Stefan did. The world is so interesting. kg - - ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 26 Nov 1999 17:25:58 +0100 From: "in.out" Subject: Tr: RADICAL jewish culture.... no way i think that religion and culture are two differents things, even if there is this heavy link of being jewish. And what zorn want to show is culture. And moreover any form of extremism is unbearable, it can be in religion: jewish, catholics, muslim etc....., it can be in everything REMEMBER JEWISH CULTURE IS NOT ORTHODOXY JEWISH CULTURE IS THE IDENTITY, the identity of beeing jewish. delphine - - ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 26 Nov 99 11:20:18 -0500 From: kurt_gottschalk@scni.com Subject: Judy Dunaway/DECEMBER 11 Forwarded for JD, who has really developed her playing. I really enjoyed her performance when we had her at Neues Kaberett at the Brecht Forum in September. kg JUDY DUNAWAY balloons & DAN EVANS FARKAS electronics Saturday, December 11, 1999 8pm Experimental Intermedia 224 Centre Street New York, NY phone: (212) 431-6430 Judy Dunaway's compositions examine balloons in a variety of sound and visual contexts. This concert will feature the NYC Premiere of Duet for Jumbo Balloons for 5 foot diameter balloons, and Stripes which features video projections by Chris Jonas, as well as other solo works. Dan Evans-Farkas manipulates low-tech electronics to create sonic events. Lightbulbs, talking dolls, electronic toys, and old LPs are some of the source materials for his improvisatory solo creations. Dunaway and Evans-Farkas will close the evening with a duet featuring Dunaway's balloons and vibrators processed through Evans-Farkas' maze of electronic intestines. Judy Dunaway's compositions and improvisations for balloons have been presented over the past nine years at numerous concerts throughout the U.S. and Europe. Performances in New York City include Lincoln Center Out-of-Doors, The Swiss Institute, Performance Space 122, The Knitting Factory, The Kitchen, Downtown Arts Festival, La Mama Galleria, Gowanus Arts Exchange, Lotus Music and Dance Center, Roulette, Hear Theater, and The Alternative Museum. Composers Recordings, Inc. (CRI) released a full CD of her works for balloons in 1998. She has received grants from Meet the Composer, the Kalliste Foundation, and National Endowment for the Arts, and artist-residencies from Harvestworks, Inc. (NYC) and Extrapool (The Netherlands). Dan Evans-Farkas is a music and sound editor who has worked on films by Sidney Lumet, Mike Nichols, Jim Jarmusch, the Coen Brothers, and others. As an electronic composer he has appeared at Roulette, the Kitchen, the Staten Island Electronic Music Festival, the International FLEA Festival and many other venues. - - ------------------------------ Date: Sat, 27 Nov 1999 05:25:05 +0100 From: "Stefan Verstraeten" Subject: Re: some corrections (radical jewish culture) >From: "john rust" >Wow, you look like a specialist in the dark side of the jewish life of >Antwerpen, aren't you?.. What is the point of saying this the way it is written here. I know Antwerp very well (it is the city where I have been living for quite some years), so yes, i can say that I know Antwerp very well. But giving the impression that I am a very special person who can show people really dark spaces....... man, wake up, EVERYBODY who is well known here in Antwerp knows of wich places I am talking about. >You know, I had to deal a lot with the russian anti-semits when I lived >there for many years and I just hated their point that not ALL the jews are >bad, just some of them. Wow, this really hurt, giving the impression that I am anti-semit. Once again, as stated, I am not anti-anything. I just disagree with some lifestyle. And off course, I still go out with my friends (although, they know what my opinion is about it). But hey, I'll pass the remark you just said about me to them, but believe me, they will defintely look strange. No seriously, what you just wrote hit me very hard. >From: patRice >>>when john zorn talks about radical jewish culture, he talks about the >>>renaissance, of realising once again that jews must realise what a beautiful >>>culture they have. >i never got the impression that that was his main motivation. Yes, a clear statement, but why do write a few lines later... >I think zorn only wanted to make the jewish people around him aware of >their culture, get them back into it >>>-when elliot sharp came to belgium, >>> He personally used the words 'i >>>myself believe that it is a marketing trick from mister zorn'. >well, he still doesn't mind the marketing, does he? if he felt it was a >bad thing he could have simply refused to have stuff put out on tzadik. >i'm sure he felt okay when he got his pay cheque!? yes you definitely got a point here, but the impression I had was that he liked the idea of a release serie based on jewish culture, but had some thoughts concerning this 'radical' element and connections that could me made. >>>The counsel of the orthodox antwerp >>>jewish community stated very clearly that zorn is DEFINITELY NOT JEWISH >>>CULTURE. Funny to hear these words from a high respected (even worldwide) >>>community that zorn is a fan of. >who gives a fuck??? do i care about what someone like that says? No, why should you indeed. Only that a member of this counsil mentioned that a question was raised if it could be possible that zorn and masada could play at the temple. The answer was no, so perhaps now zorn can shout out I don't give a fuck, but i don't know how he really felt when he got the answer back from the counsil. Anyway, as a last remark, let me say some things - -i am not a nazi. I have some great orthodox jewish friends, whose friendship i can't be without. It gives me a great insight in how other people live. - -i don't want to claim the right to judge on orthodox jewish lifestyle. I just have an opinion on it, and likes to discuss it with orthodox friends. Do they agree, most of them don't, but the important thing is that we speak very openly about it and learn from eachother - -i still believe that zorn is a very good musician, but sometimes disagree with his point of view. I personally think that one should make a difference between the music and his composer. Best wishes, yes also you john rust, but please, please never write such things about me once again. I am defintely not anti-semit, once again, do not ever write this again please. Peace stefan verstraeten - - ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 26 Nov 1999 11:48:16 EST From: APoesia794@aol.com Subject: please contact me please pardon the personal post: could Marcin Witkowski please contact me. i'm having trouble with your email address. thanks. apoesia794@aol.com - - ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 26 Nov 99 13:09:47 -0500 From: kurt_gottschalk@scni.com Subject: Judy Dunaway -- correction Sorry -- I just heard from Judy that the concert at Experimental Intermedia will be at 9 p.m., not 8. - - ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 26 Nov 1999 16:34:58 -0300 From: Linares Hugo Subject: RE: some corrections (radical jewish culture) stefan verstraeten wrote: > Anyway, as a last remark, let me say some things > -i am not a nazi. I have some great orthodox jewish friends, whose > friendship i can't be without. It gives me a great insight in how other > people live. > > things about me once again. I am defintely not anti-semit, once again, do > not ever write this again please. > It's clear that you admit you're definitely anti-semitic, and I do believe what you say, but let me tell you that "having Jewish friends" is not a strong enough argument to support your anti-semitic position. You can be anti-Arab/Latin/Chinese or whatever as simultaneously you can have friends from those cultural condition, can't you?. It's evident you're inclined to judge severely those orthodox pratices, more precisely Orthodox Judaism, but I think the best practice is: "live and let live" Just another opinion - - ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 26 Nov 1999 14:13:26 -0600 (CST) From: Charles Gillett Subject: Re: sonic youth 20th century On Wed, Nov 24, 1999 at 03:54:58PM -0500, Caleb T. Deupree wrote: > Sonic Youth has a new 2cd set of 20th century classical works (Cage, > Wolff, Reich, etc.) which is available from most of the usual > sources. I'm unfamiliar with their music, but I had always placed them > in some vague pop landscape. Can anyone provide any background on the > group, how this album fits with the rest of their output, and perhaps > even a review of the album? The only strong connection I can make is that Thurston Moore and Lee Ranaldo (the guitarists) have played in Glenn Branca's ensembles. I've never gotten into Sonic Youth, but since Thurston Moore (along with Byron Coley of Forced Exposure) has been the tastemaker of the indie scene for the better part of 20 years now and thus has had his mitts in almost everything, I couldn't have avoided them completely. William Winant was apparently quite instrumental in the realization of this album (choosing the pieces and helping with the interpretation), and Christian Wolff and Takehisa Kosugi performed as well. More info, and the repeated misspelling of "Winant," can be found at: http://www.smellslikerecords.com/syr/syr4/syr4frameset.html Disc one features a video of their performance of George Maciunas's Piano Piece #13, which I'm sure my computer will not allow me to see. I'm so sure, I haven't even bothered trying. - -- Charles - - ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 26 Nov 1999 15:45:13 -0500 (EST) From: Ken Waxman Subject: Paul Bley autobiography Just bought and read (I'm a very fast reader) Stopping Time: Paul Bley and the Transformation of Jazz. It's a very interesting book, well-worth exploring by anyone interested in jazz/electronics/new music. Mostly autobiographical and illuminated with Bley's thoughts about improvisation, written music, synthesizers, the recording studio, running a record label, vmaking ideos, seizing the moment etc. etc.. It also includes tales illuminating the keyboardist's interaction with folks like Mingus, Ornette, Sun Ra, Bill Dixon, Rosewell Rudd, George Rusell, Jaco Pastorius, Jimmy Giuffre,Sonny Rollins, Sunny Murray etc.etc. and more etc. It also devotes some time to his three wives who are important musical figures in their own rights : Carla Bley, Annette Peacock and Carol Gross. And it has a clutch of vintage photos (ever seen Bley "conducting" a Mingus group?) The book is written with David Lee and published by Vehicule Press in Canada. In fairness I should say that it does have some drawbacks, though. The chronology sometimes gets a little muddled, some antecdotes often trail off rather than finish and it does call for some knowledge of the jazz scene in general. Oh, and I've only so-far found two serious typos (hey, I'm a professional editor, after all -- not of this book, though). Now we need the definitive book on European avant garde jazz. Ken Waxman - - ------------------------------ End of Zorn List Digest V2 #799 ******************************* To unsubscribe from zorn-list-digest, send an email to "majordomo@lists.xmission.com" with "unsubscribe zorn-list-digest" in the body of the message. For information on digests or retrieving files and old messages send "help" to the same address. Do not use quotes in your message. A non-digest (direct mail) version of this list is also available; to subscribe to that instead, replace all instances of "zorn-list-digest" in the commands above with "zorn-list". Back issues are available for anonymous FTP from ftp.xmission.com, in pub/lists/zorn-list/archive. These are organized by date. Problems? Email the list owner at zorn-list-owner@lists.xmission.com