From: owner-zorn-list-digest@lists.xmission.com (Zorn List Digest) To: zorn-list-digest@lists.xmission.com Subject: Zorn List Digest V2 #959 Reply-To: zorn-list Sender: owner-zorn-list-digest@lists.xmission.com Errors-To: owner-zorn-list-digest@lists.xmission.com Precedence: bulk Zorn List Digest Wednesday, June 7 2000 Volume 02 : Number 959 In this issue: - RE: Bach/Caine max'n'cecil, joey'n'ron, dsware, laguardia high artists and self-expression sonic boom Odp: artists and self-expression Re: Odp: notation (was artists and self-estimation) Tonic Tonight (Moore/Gordon/Mori/Olive/O'Rourke) Re: Verbatim Misha Mengelberg RE: notation (was artists and self-estimation) Re: notation (was artists and self-estimation) ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Date: Tue, 6 Jun 2000 22:50:54 -0700 From: "Dave Egan" Subject: RE: Bach/Caine Hi guys, I saw Uri play the Goldberg variations with the Seattle Chamber Players in March. Just piano, violin, cello, clarinet and flute. Very good, with Uri's trademark arrangements, but maybe a little more like a straight rendition with the acoustic instrumentation. I made a recording of the show, and I have an extra pair of CDs if either of you are interested. Let me know. - - Dave > -----Original Message----- > From: owner-zorn-list@lists.xmission.com > [mailto:owner-zorn-list@lists.xmission.com]On Behalf Of Peter Gannushkin > Sent: Monday, June 05, 2000 12:54 PM > To: XRedbirdxx @ aol . com > Subject: Re: Bach/Caine > > > Hello XRedbirdxx, > > Monday, June 05, 2000, you wrote to me: > > Xac> Anyone catch Uri Caine's Bach Goldgerb Variation Project this > Xac> past weekend at the Jazz Standard?? > > I saw them yesterday. The ensemble includes almost the same people as > Mahler's project: Uri Caine - piano, Greg Tardy - clarinet and tenor > sax, Ralph Alessi - trumpet, Diane Monroe - violin, Barbara Walker - > vocals, DJ Olive - turntables, Drew Gress - bass, Ralph Peterson - > drums and two poets. > > Caine did the same thing with Bach as with other composers before. He > played solo a little, arranged Bach for piano, violin, double bass and > trumpet in a very good Bachish way and added lots of R&B, jazz and > some klezmer music. Excellent arrangement and piano playing as usual. > Diane Monroe, Barbara Walker, Drew Gress and Ralph Peterson were great > too. Others were quit good but not so interesting. > > The only bad thing was the worst acoustics in the city of Jazz > Standard. It was not unexpected though. > > -- > Best regards, > Peter Gannushkin > e-mail: shkin@shkin.com > > > > - > - - ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 07 Jun 2000 10:21:19 -0500 From: kurt_gottschalk@scni.com Subject: max'n'cecil, joey'n'ron, dsware, laguardia high absolutely historic night on columbia's campus. that's the first thing, knowing i got bragging rights on some piece of jazz lore for when i'm an old guy. (a couple i know were also at the 1979 and 1989 max/cecil sets, but what're you gonna do). the historic feel is relevant because it really permeated the evening, i thought. and it may be why the audience (1,000 at least?) was surprisingly quiet and respectful. a beautiful night. that said... tubamaster bob stewart and the laguardia high jazz band (w/soloists james spaulding(!), wes anderson and someone else) - strong playing of big band charts, mostly ellington and a piece from peer gynt which i assume was duke's arrangement, altho bob didn't say so. ended with a strong version of mingus' moanin'. to say they were great for their age would be a disservice. just a strong, energetic big band steeped in tradition. ron carter and joey baron - well... uh, good thing joey was there. i've always found rc to be rather hit or miss. this seemed like 45 min of so of him going 'and i know this riff and i know this riff and i know this riff and i know this riff...'. always-a-joy joey, however, excels in such a setting (i used to love to watch him divine rhythms from the pedal-induced chaos frisell would create, when it seemed bf didn't even know where he was going (tho maybe that was just the shtick). david s. ware quartet - ok, i've never been a champion of dsw either. i seem to end up seeing him one place or another every summer, and i sorta think he's a blowhard without much to say. but this was great. great. strong statement of an aylery, gospelly theme by shipp, then ware came in and they took it to the sky (there being no roof). great playing all around. lovely to see parker lay out a fearsome noise, rattling the bricks of my stodgy alma mater. my first time seeing brown, too. where'd he come from? max roach and cecil taylor - one of the aforementioned couple said 'even if it wasn't good, it was great.' seems like it took them a good 20 minutes to start playing together, and even then each was pushing more than listening. but so the fuck what? 2 brilliant players, the solos and the final duet were exceptional, and damn if it's just good to see max pound for over an hour. rumors about his failing health (true or not) be damned. oh, and next time there's free history in the making, pick up after your damn selves, y'all. that's all. np: bobby zankel quintet - prayer and action - - ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 07 Jun 2000 14:22:28 GMT From: "Bill Ashline" Subject: artists and self-expression Bruce wrote: This can be a valuable exercise I think for bringing out a structural/formalist approach to music using conventional vocabulary of that sort. I think it’s a limited approach though for looking at other aspects of music, including emotive/affective aspects. For those matters, we need to use a different vocabulary. Patrice wrote: I would never throw Adorno into anyone’s face since his theories on music, particularly jazz, constitute a very inadequate reading. But before I threw Adorno out in trash, I’d spend more than just an hour or two looking at the Dialectic of Enlightenment and Minima Moralia so that you can see the hell from which he emerged. As far as his expanding the text of music into areas outside the hermetic and solipsistic spaces of notation, I think that was a positive contribution, despite all his high modernist aestheticism. If more people remember Stravinsky than Adorno, it’s because the institutions that support Stravinsky are lot more powerful than those that support Adorno. The power of these institutions are exemplified in some of the responses one sees on this list. Ø mediocre artist or an educated listener (educated in the sense of having > done his homework)? > > Ø > No one is qualified to judge music. No one could possibly do enough homework. Ø "Qualification" and "homework" were your words. You should be better than this at reading joking hyperbole. Not taboo. Revealing… > Ø Ø < You should tell that to people from Cambodia. > Bad example. Would you like to read my article on Cambodia? Since you prefer simple explanations, it would probably be moot to point out to you that Pol Pot got his brilliant ideas about constructing irrigation systems by reading the mythic fabrications of the 19th century French explorers in the French libraries in the late fifties. Now did more people die in digging these irrigation systems or in being bludgeoned to death? Is it worth pointing out as well that French imperialists landed in Indochina long before "badly-read Marx" did, thereby setting the stage for the anti-colonialist rebellion of the Khmer Rouge? Shall I go on for another 35 pages or so? Ø aesthetic attitudes and the harmlessness of critics, Hans Haacke had a different take, when he juxtaposed Exxon’s support for the symphony next to the effects of their investment in S. Africa during apartheid.> Ø < Wow! What a shrewd finding! The conspiracy theory is always more appealing. The likely reason (a big company sprinkling money here and there for tax purposes) looks boring in comparison (and not worth writing a paper). > Actually, Haacke is an artist, believe it or not. Not a Picasso to be certain, and so I wouldn’t expect you to know him as such. This image was the basis of an installation he did in Germany awhile back. But perhaps if you read more than just two or three sentences…. Your serve… ________________________________________________________________________ Get Your Private, Free E-mail from MSN Hotmail at http://www.hotmail.com - - ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 7 Jun 2000 15:38:18 +0000 From: Simon Hopkins Subject: sonic boom >i've visited the exhibition. it sounds more exciting in paper. The brazilian >forest thing is very neat, best pieces are by Max Eastley as usual. Eno's >quiet club is... quiet. Can't really go along with Francesco's overall assessment of the show, although I agree with him about Max's being the best pieces. In any case, myself, Dan Hill and Matt Fretwell from the ---+motion team went down during the preparation of the show and interviewed some of the artists involved. In a couple of weeks we'll have videos of the interviews up on the site, but for now we've put up transcripts of interviews with David Toop (who curated the show, of course), Max Eastley and Stephan Von Heune. During the course of the week we'll add transcripts of our chats with Thomas Koner, John Oswald and Russell Mills & Ian Watson. You can read the interviews at: http://motion.state51.co.uk We've also (finally) posted up our interviews with Paul Bley, Tomasz Stanko, Pole and Mike Ladd. Again, video versions to follow soon. Cheers Simon - - ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 7 Jun 2000 19:33:42 +0200 From: "Marcin Gokieli" Subject: Odp: artists and self-expression Bill Ashline wrote (commenting Patrice L.) > I would never throw Adorno into anyone’s face since his theories on music, > particularly jazz, constitute a very inadequate reading. But before I threw > Adorno out in trash, I’d spend more than just an hour or two looking at the > Dialectic of Enlightenment and Minima Moralia so that you can see the hell > from which he emerged. As far as his expanding the text of music into areas > positive contribution, despite all his high modernist aestheticism. What do you mean? What kind of 'hell' one can find in these cheap kind of social philosophy that consist in showing great education and no responsiveness to-- actual social life (reaction to jazz is just a great example - just imagine that the mfer could just go and see Charlie Parker live instead of wrting his #$$% - he did it in NYC in the forties). The most striking fact of his writing is absolute lack of interest in actual theory of value - compare MacIntyre's After Virtue, where large sections (chapters XIV, and also XI & XV) are devoted to the discussion of the theory of value and the structure of value judgement. > If more > people remember Stravinsky than Adorno, it’s because the institutions that > support Stravinsky are lot more powerful than those that support Adorno. > The power of these institutions are exemplified in some of the responses one > sees on this list. Well... THAT IS STRONG I doubt if you seriously say that the interest people show in Stravinsky and not in Adorno is just a function of 'institutional support'. And i do not mean just Adorno in particular - I would say the same thing about the thinkers i admire much more, as Kant, Wittgenstein, Fodor, and Quine. I do like much more listening to l'histoire du soldat then reading the Critiques, despite the fact that i do both quite intensively. Information is not knowledge, & music is the best. That's all, really all. Have fun, Marcin Gokieli marcingokieli@go2.pl <> Auden & Kallman, Stravinsky's "The Rake's Progress" - - ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 7 Jun 2000 15:57:27 EDT From: Eisenbeil@aol.com Subject: Re: Odp: notation (was artists and self-estimation) In a message dated 6/6/00 3:40:28 PM Eastern Daylight Time, marcingokieli@go2.pl writes: << Well, i think that this talk about complicated music complicates the issue. Just notate a BBKing solo and give it to a guitarist to play. You'll see the limitations of notation. Marcin Gokieli marcingokieli@go2.pl >> Is that because of notation or because of the guitarists ability to read? Seriously, being a guitarist myself, I am the strongest proponant that the map is not the territory. In order to bring this around to the original concept that was being discussed, I think that with regard to discussions of quality, in order for us to have discussions that go beyond surface aspects of good work vs. bad work, concepts that can be quantified in a notational system that is somewhat universal should be expressed and discussed. In the book that Zorn edited, ARCANA, many musicians express concepts that are the underpinnings of their work. These are modern composers and improvisors with extensive backgrounds. What makes a music critic qualified? Do they play an instrument? Do they understand the underpinnings of an artists work? I don't mean to imply that YES is the best answer to these questions. In the best music the musicians at some crucial point discovered the escape tunnel to the universal music-stream. To describe this , I find it impossible but nonetheless, there are musical concepts, intervals and counterpoint that exist that help to define the architecture and movement along the way to the point of departure. Regards, Bruce www.eisenbeil.com - - ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 7 Jun 2000 16:04:55 -0400 From: Dan Hewins Subject: Tonic Tonight (Moore/Gordon/Mori/Olive/O'Rourke) I really want to go but, alas, I cannot for I have to go to DC for a day. If anyone is going and happens to tape (if allowed) I would love to get a copy. Please email me privately. - --Wed, Jun 07-- Thurston Moore/Kim Gordon, Ikue Mori & DJ Olive Trio with special guest Jim O'Rourke Double Bill at 8:00pm Dan Hewins - - ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 7 Jun 2000 22:42:15 +0200 (CEST) From: Oger Subject: Re: Verbatim Bob Ostertag has a website where you can obtain CDs from him : http://www.detritus.net/ostertag Jacques Oger - - ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 7 Jun 2000 18:24:12 -0400 From: "Dann-Brown" Subject: Misha Mengelberg ....specifically the two albums "Who's Bridge" and "No Idea". Can anyone give their opinion on these? High points, etc.? - ------- Dann-Brown np: TMBG - "Greek #3", THEN - ------- - - ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 07 Jun 2000 16:32:05 -0600 From: "Matthew W Wirzbicki (S) " Subject: RE: notation (was artists and self-estimation) << Well, i think that this talk about complicated music complicates the issue. Just notate a BBKing solo and give it to a guitarist to play. You'll see the limitations of notation. Marcin Gokieli marcingokieli@go2.pl >> Bruce replied: >Is that because of notation or because of the guitarists ability to >read? no, simply because he is not BB King and therefore cannot play like him no matter how explicit the instructions are or how skilled he is at following them. >I think that with regard to >discussions of >quality, in order for us to have discussions that go beyond surface >aspects >of good work vs. bad work, concepts that can be quantified in a >notational >system that is somewhat universal should be expressed and discussed. I'd be curious to see a couple examples of these "quantified concepts" with relation to specific works/composers to see just how it will lead to quality judgments. Hopefully, it will not turn into a search for the masterful mental musician who composes complex theoretical patterns and is therefore worthy to be termed "better." I apologize if my comments come off as antagonistic but I really am just curious because I feel that this is some pretty shakey ground you're asking us to walk on. Still I do agree that it would be nice to excape the simple desciptives and metaphores and hyperbole used so frequently to talk about a "good" piece of music, concert, album etc. >In the best music the musicians at some crucial point discovered the >escape >tunnel to the universal music-stream...there are musical concepts, >intervals and counterpoint that exist that help to define the architecture >and movement along the way to the point of departure. or the architecture of the departure?? On a semi-related tone: I recently saw a document in which a theorist tried to discover the method to the madness of Cecil Talyor. The basic premise was that what he does (and the author didn't mention if he felt that Cecil Taylor was concious of this or not) is to contract the melody (the piece in question did have a basic theme) into tone clusters and then toy with the clusters, adding subtracting, modifying...I wasn't at the convention or anything so I didn't hear his whole presentation, I just caught a glimpse of the pamphlet. Matt Wirzbicki - - ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 7 Jun 2000 17:56:59 -0400 From: Joseph Zitt Subject: Re: notation (was artists and self-estimation) On Wed, Jun 07, 2000 at 04:32:05PM -0600, Matthew W Wirzbicki (S) wrote: > > > << Well, i think that this talk about complicated music complicates the > issue. > Just notate a BBKing solo and give it to a guitarist to play. You'll > see the > limitations of notation. > > Marcin Gokieli > marcingokieli@go2.pl > >> > > Bruce replied: > >Is that because of notation or because of the guitarists ability to > >read? > > no, simply because he is not BB King and therefore cannot play like him no > matter how explicit the instructions are or how skilled he is at following > them. Why not? > On a semi-related tone: > > I recently saw a document in which a theorist tried to discover the method > to the madness of Cecil Talyor. The basic premise was that what he does > (and the author didn't mention if he felt that Cecil Taylor was concious of > this or not) is to contract the melody (the piece in question did have a > basic theme) into tone clusters and then toy with the clusters, adding > subtracting, modifying...I wasn't at the convention or anything so I didn't > hear his whole presentation, I just caught a glimpse of the pamphlet. An interesting approach (whether or not it's used in this case). - -- |> ~The only thing that is not art is inattention~ --- Marcel Duchamp <| | jzitt@metatronpress.com http://www.metatronpress.com/jzitt | | Latest CD: Jerusaklyn http://www.mp3.com/josephzitt | | Comma: Voices of New Music Silence: the John Cage Discussion List | - - ------------------------------ End of Zorn List Digest V2 #959 ******************************* To unsubscribe from zorn-list-digest, send an email to "majordomo@lists.xmission.com" with "unsubscribe zorn-list-digest" in the body of the message. For information on digests or retrieving files and old messages send "help" to the same address. Do not use quotes in your message. A non-digest (direct mail) version of this list is also available; to subscribe to that instead, replace all instances of "zorn-list-digest" in the commands above with "zorn-list". Back issues are available for anonymous FTP from ftp.xmission.com, in pub/lists/zorn-list/archive. 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