From: owner-zorn-list-digest@lists.xmission.com (Zorn List Digest) To: zorn-list-digest@lists.xmission.com Subject: Zorn List Digest V3 #63 Reply-To: zorn-list Sender: owner-zorn-list-digest@lists.xmission.com Errors-To: owner-zorn-list-digest@lists.xmission.com Precedence: bulk Zorn List Digest Thursday, September 21 2000 Volume 03 : Number 063 In this issue: - Han & the Minstrels Re: Modernism, Dada, Surrealism (PostModernIsm?) Re: Re: Modernism, Dada, Surrealism (PostModernism?) RE: Han & the Minstrels RE: REVIEW: Archie Shepp/Roswell Rudd, NYC 9/20/00 (long) Re: burroughs (was: all of these little things) Re: Modernism, Dada, Surrealism (PostModernism?) Peter Epstein Re: burroughs (was: all of these little things) Lipstick Traces Re: burroughs (was: all of these little things) Re: Han & the Minstrels han Trans Am Re: Wittgenstein Re: burroughs (was: all of these little things) Re: burroughs (was: all of these little things) Re: burroughs (was: all of these little things) Re: burroughs (was: all of these little things) ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Date: Thu, 21 Sep 2000 09:34:43 -0700 From: Martin_Wisckol@link.freedom.com Subject: Han & the Minstrels ken waxman: >I guess he realized he couldn't screw around with >AACMers who, being tough enough to survive in the >music business for 30 years plus, weren't going to >accept a European minstrel show while they played. Hmm... On the other hand, the Art Ensemble painted their faces and weren't above occasionally skits and monkey biz on stage.... Martin np: tomasz stanko "from the green hill" (thanks to dino saluzzi's prominence on this, it sounds delightfully like astor piazzolla meets the art ensemble) - - ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 21 Sep 2000 12:37:43 -0400 From: Perfect Sound Forever Subject: Re: Modernism, Dada, Surrealism (PostModernIsm?) Someone MUST have mentioned this before as a source but just in case... Greil Marcus' Lipstick Traces has some really fascinating detail about the Dada movement. Andre Breton's work is also superb and should provide a good source also. Best, Jason P.S. Let me add my voice to the chorus- S. Smith's write-up on Shepp was exceptional - -- Perfect Sound Forever online music magazine perfect-sound@furious.com http://www.furious.com/perfect - - ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 21 Sep 2000 12:45:54 -0400 From: wlt4@mindspring.com Subject: Re: Re: Modernism, Dada, Surrealism (PostModernism?) > Someone MUST have mentioned this before as a source but just in >case... Greil Marcus' Lipstick Traces has some really fascinating Just a couple of weeks ago I finally got a copy of the "Lipstick Traces" CD and was pretty blown away, especially since being familiar with about half anyway I didn't realize how much difference the context would make. Too bad it's long out-of-print and not likely to have a US release. Lang - - ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 21 Sep 2000 13:51:50 -0300 From: Linares Hugo Subject: RE: Han & the Minstrels > np: tomasz stanko "from the green hill" (thanks to dino saluzzi's > prominence on this, it sounds delightfully like astor piazzolla meets > the art ensemble) > > I do agree that Saluzzi sounds delightfully, though I doubt Piazzolla "doing the sideman thing" as Saluzzi does. Piazzolla was great, so was his personality. Anyway, I enjoyed the Stanko recording and specially the violin player (can't remember her name but her beautifulness is always present...). Hugo Linares - - ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 21 Sep 2000 13:58:27 -0300 From: Linares Hugo Subject: RE: REVIEW: Archie Shepp/Roswell Rudd, NYC 9/20/00 (long) > Thanks a lot Steve for the fantastic review! For a few minutes you almost > gave > me the feeling that I was there. > > Patrice (never tired of BLASE, MAGIC OF JU-JU, etc). > Seconded. Fine description and opinion. Hugo Linares - - ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 21 Sep 2000 10:03:19 -0700 From: "Patrice L. Roussel" Subject: Re: burroughs (was: all of these little things) On Thu, 21 Sep 2000 11:24:33 -0500 Matthew Ross Davis wrote: > > Yes, I find the cut-up extremely similar to Zorn's own jump-cut method of > constructing stuff. It's certainly good good reading for anyone > interested in the early days of de/reconstructionist art. :) But there is a big difference (at least for me): I get it [cut-up] in music and completely miss it in literature (I read NAKED LUNCH but barely understood a word). This for a simple reason: music by itself does not express anything (to use Stravinsky's famous statement), as opposed to writing which is sup- posed to convey some meaning (assuming that being confused is not your top priority when you decide to open a book). This constraint of the writing (you have to say something), as opposed to the total freedom of music (free of any such constraints), makes the comparisons either naive or totally wrong. Patrice "back to basic" Roussel. - - ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 21 Sep 2000 10:08:32 -0700 From: Tosh Subject: Re: Modernism, Dada, Surrealism (PostModernism?) > > Just a couple of weeks ago I finally got a copy of the "Lipstick Traces" CD > and was pretty blown away, especially since being familiar with about half > anyway I didn't realize how much difference the context would make. Too bad > it's long out-of-print and not likely to have a US release. > > Lang > > - > > I may have miss this on the list, but what is on the Lipstick Traces CD? ciao, - -- Tosh Berman TamTam Books http://www.tamtambooks.com - - ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 21 Sep 2000 12:12:20 -0500 (CDT) From: Tom Benton Subject: Peter Epstein > Also, I finally got around to getting one of those Peter Epstein quartet > CD, "The Invisible." I can't remember which got the highest > recommendation but this has some really great parts. Indeed it does. And as much as I enjoy it, I'll confess to digging 'Staring At The Sun' much much more. Perhaps my favorite album of 1999. It's same band (with Jamie sticking to accordion!) and trods on similar ground, but I'm hit much harder on this one by the strength of the writing (which isn't to say the tunes on 'The Invisible' aren't good, it's just that most of 'Staring At The Sun' I find completely sickeningly beautiful). > Like just about everything with Jim Black he sort of defines the sound, > with those odd-time backbeat rhythms. I think it was "Jim Black + accordion" that inspired me to originally pick up the first record. There are some moments on there where he's playing with (I think) his bare hands and the recording captures it so amazingly I don't even know what to say about it. An amusing (to me, at least) but otherwise useless note: a couple of days ago my roommate picked up my copy of 'The Invisible' and, after looking at it for a bit, said to me: "I think this is the first time I've seen a picture of Jim Black. He looks like a dork!" I don't know. Damn, it was funny at the time... - - ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 21 Sep 2000 10:21:05 -0700 From: Tosh Subject: Re: burroughs (was: all of these little things) on 9/21/00 10:03 AM, Patrice L. Roussel at proussel@ichips.intel.com wrote: > > On Thu, 21 Sep 2000 11:24:33 -0500 Matthew Ross Davis wrote: >> >> Yes, I find the cut-up extremely similar to Zorn's own jump-cut method of >> constructing stuff. It's certainly good good reading for anyone >> interested in the early days of de/reconstructionist art. :) > > But there is a big difference (at least for me): I get it [cut-up] in music > and completely miss it in literature (I read NAKED LUNCH but barely understood > a word). This for a simple reason: music by itself does not express anything > (to use Stravinsky's famous statement), as opposed to writing which is sup- > posed to convey some meaning (assuming that being confused is not your top > priority when you decide to open a book). This constraint of the writing (you > have to say something), as opposed to the total freedom of music (free of any > such constraints), makes the comparisons either naive or totally wrong. > > Patrice "back to basic" Roussel. > > > - > > Patrice's comments are interesting in regards to literature and music. For me personally music and literature hits me the same way. I don't agree with the concept that writing is supposed to convey some meaning. Not in a strict sense. Come to mind the works of Tzara and Kurt Scwitters, plus some of the early literature of the Futurists - where lot of it is sound based. As for Burroughs, I can't read his work without hearing his 'voice.' I think Naked Lunch as a variety show on paper. But people due have separate standards for music listening and reading. I personally don't. And this might be only a matter of personal taste. - -- Tosh Berman TamTam Books http://www.tamtambooks.com - - ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 21 Sep 2000 13:31:13 -0400 From: wlt4@mindspring.com Subject: Lipstick Traces > I may have miss this on the list, but what is on the Lipstick Traces CD? There's a listing and Jon Savage's liner notes at http://www.eyecandypromo.com/GM/Lipstick.html but it doesn't include Greil's brief notes and source info on each track. In case anybody cares, some of my artwork is used in the book, it's the detourned Beetle Bailey comic. Lang - - ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 21 Sep 2000 12:53:07 -0400 From: Joseph Zitt Subject: Re: burroughs (was: all of these little things) On Thu, Sep 21, 2000 at 10:03:19AM -0700, Patrice L. Roussel wrote: > > On Thu, 21 Sep 2000 11:24:33 -0500 Matthew Ross Davis wrote: > > > > Yes, I find the cut-up extremely similar to Zorn's own jump-cut method of > > constructing stuff. It's certainly good good reading for anyone > > interested in the early days of de/reconstructionist art. :) > > But there is a big difference (at least for me): I get it [cut-up] in music > and completely miss it in literature (I read NAKED LUNCH but barely understood > a word). This for a simple reason: music by itself does not express anything > (to use Stravinsky's famous statement), as opposed to writing which is sup- > posed to convey some meaning (assuming that being confused is not your top > priority when you decide to open a book). This constraint of the writing (you > have to say something), as opposed to the total freedom of music (free of any > such constraints), makes the comparisons either naive or totally wrong. Does writing have to "say something"? Isn't that precisely what the cut-up artists were playing with/against? How about sound poetry, etc? Too many people try to "understand" music similarly, by shoehorning it in preconceived categories of meaning. (Though I must admit that I don't "get" any but the simplest or more most representational visual art.) - -- |> ~The only thing that is not art is inattention~ --- Marcel Duchamp <| | jzitt@metatronpress.com http://www.metatronpress.com/jzitt | | Latest CD: Jerusaklyn http://www.mp3.com/josephzitt | | Comma: Voices of New Music Silence: the John Cage Discussion List | - - ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 21 Sep 2000 19:29:01 +0200 From: "Jerzy Matysiakiewicz" Subject: Re: Han & the Minstrels - ----- Original Message ----- From: "Linares Hugo" To: ; Sent: Thursday, September 21, 2000 6:51 PM Subject: RE: Han & the Minstrels >I enjoyed the Stanko recording and specially the violin > player (can't remember her name but her beautifulness is always present...). Michelle Makarski Jerzy - - ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 21 Sep 2000 13:57:06 -0500 From: kurt_gottschalk@scni.com Subject: han damn, ken, i'm gonna have to hit you on this. sorry. and there's certai= nly plenty of people who agree wit you vizaviz the han schtick. i've leant = toward the dismissive myself in the past, but after seeing the icp (where the = hanhumor was in fullforce) last month, i've cemented my views on one of the most= inventive talented and longevitous drummers around. the short version: to say han's humor gets repetitive is like saying eu= gene chadbourne doesn't hit all the notes when he sings. it's missing the po= int. what you got is a talented musician putting what he wants into the performan= ce quite obviously (i think) out of nothing other than a love of performing.=20 the unfortunate thing is, if a musician makes someone laugh once, they = expect new jokes the next time. i thought it was pretty odd when jerry seinfel= d did a series of stand-up performances called "i'm telling you for the last ti= me," which was the last time he would perform some of his "classic bits." i = thought, why do people want to go hear the jokes they've already heard? mind you= , i hate jerry seinfeld, but if i were a fan, i think i'd say, "good. i'll go se= e his next show, when he's not doing the old jokes anymore." han, however, is not a comedian. that point seems lost in statements li= ke: =2E > After the second, third, fourth, fifth... time it gets > a tiring to have to sit through Han's schtick. and i would caution you in making assumptions about a performer's thoug= hts and personal motivations if you haven't actually been told same. (granted, = you say 'seems' but i doubt that the assumption which follows is on target: > he now seems to think he has to "perform" > every time he plays. does threadgill think he has to close his eyes and rock gently back and= forth with a small grin because it's what's expected? maybe zorn wishes he co= uld cut his hair. milford graves is no doubt weary of leaving his drum set to d= ance, pick up audience members and twirl them and somersault down the stairs.= or, more likely, they're just doing what they're moved to do. jerry seinfeld mig= ht keep doing the same bits because he makes millions and millions of dollars d= oing so. i doubt that's han's motivation. > Interesting enough, earlier in the month when Han, > Misha and Michael Moore played in a sextet at the > Guelph Jazz Festival with George Lewis, Joseph Jarman > and Leroy Jenkins, not only was he playing relatively > quietly, but the schtick was nowhere in evidence. yes, actually. that is interesting. but... > I guess he realized he couldn't screw around with > AACMers who, being tough enough to survive in the > music business for 30 years plus, weren't going to > accept a European minstrel show while they played. ain't han also tough enough to have survived inthe music business for 3= 0 years plus. and 'minstrel' is probably not what you mean, since minstrels wer= en't always vaudevillian. next time you see han, try and let it be a guy who's loved what he does= for decades, and lets it show. he does play drums as well. pretty good, fro= m what i hear. kg np: merle travis "steel guitar rag" = - - ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 21 Sep 2000 18:51:25 +0100 (WET DST) From: Ricardo Reis Subject: Trans Am hi! just being hearing to Trans Am lately and thought this is something you could be interested in. any know relations with zorn or zorn related stuff? jumping to the other side, Ricardo Reis "NON SERVIAM" - - ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 21 Sep 2000 18:49:23 +0100 (WET DST) From: Ricardo Reis Subject: Re: Wittgenstein on the subject to Wittgenstein i wish to sugest your friend to try: "Wittgenstein's Vienna" by Allan Janik & Stephen Tonhein, published at Touchstone. salut! Ricardo Reis "NON SERVIAM" - - ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 21 Sep 2000 11:00:19 -0700 From: "Patrice L. Roussel" Subject: Re: burroughs (was: all of these little things) On Thu, 21 Sep 2000 10:21:05 -0700 Tosh wrote: > > Patrice's comments are interesting in regards to literature and music. For But old hat. It is just the way 99% of the people approache this issue (appreciating music despite its lack of meaning and literature specially for it). > me personally music and literature hits me the same way. I don't agree with ^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^ I think that this is true at a larger scale when dealing with poetry. It is not surprising that surrealist poetry is better known than any other written form influenced by the surrealist movement. It is easy to deal with a lack of meaning when writing a few sentences/pages text (poem), and it is manageable for a reader to go through it. In fact some of the attributes used to describe poetry (metric, rythm, sound) are shared with music (and come full swing when dealing with surrealist poetry). This makes it possible to approach the music experience with a text. Where it is getting harder is to be successful at maintaining such interest over a larger scale work (novel). You cited a few works proving that it is technically possible to do such, but I personaly feel that they are mainly curiosities that could have stayed in the laboratory (but yes, somebody had to do it for the sake of it). Patrice. - - ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 21 Sep 2000 11:05:30 -0700 From: "Patrice L. Roussel" Subject: Re: burroughs (was: all of these little things) On Thu, 21 Sep 2000 12:53:07 -0400 Joseph Zitt wrote: > > Does writing have to "say something"? Isn't that precisely what the > cut-up artists were playing with/against? How about sound poetry, etc? If you want to make a case out of exceptions, I guess you are right. But you miss my point: music can survive without saying anything (because it is its nature); literature cannot (because it main point is about saying something). Patrice. - - ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 21 Sep 2000 13:25:29 -0400 From: Joseph Zitt Subject: Re: burroughs (was: all of these little things) On Thu, Sep 21, 2000 at 11:05:30AM -0700, Patrice L. Roussel wrote: > > On Thu, 21 Sep 2000 12:53:07 -0400 Joseph Zitt wrote: > > > > Does writing have to "say something"? Isn't that precisely what the > > cut-up artists were playing with/against? How about sound poetry, etc? > > If you want to make a case out of exceptions, I guess you are right. But > you miss my point: music can survive without saying anything (because it > is its nature); literature cannot (because it main point is about saying > something). I disagree that that is necessarily its main point, anymore than visual art's main point is representation. - -- |> ~The only thing that is not art is inattention~ --- Marcel Duchamp <| | jzitt@metatronpress.com http://www.metatronpress.com/jzitt | | Latest CD: Jerusaklyn http://www.mp3.com/josephzitt | | Comma: Voices of New Music Silence: the John Cage Discussion List | - - ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 21 Sep 2000 13:29:37 -0400 From: Joseph Zitt Subject: Re: burroughs (was: all of these little things) On Thu, Sep 21, 2000 at 01:25:29PM -0400, Joseph Zitt wrote: > On Thu, Sep 21, 2000 at 11:05:30AM -0700, Patrice L. Roussel wrote: > > > > On Thu, 21 Sep 2000 12:53:07 -0400 Joseph Zitt wrote: > > > > > > Does writing have to "say something"? Isn't that precisely what the > > > cut-up artists were playing with/against? How about sound poetry, etc? > > > > If you want to make a case out of exceptions, I guess you are right. But > > you miss my point: music can survive without saying anything (because it > > is its nature); literature cannot (because it main point is about saying > > something). > > I disagree that that is necessarily its main point, anymore than > visual art's main point is representation. Or, come to thing of it, more to the point, that music's main point is lyrical melody and triadic harmony. - -- |> ~The only thing that is not art is inattention~ --- Marcel Duchamp <| | jzitt@metatronpress.com http://www.metatronpress.com/jzitt | | Latest CD: Jerusaklyn http://www.mp3.com/josephzitt | | Comma: Voices of New Music Silence: the John Cage Discussion List | - - ------------------------------ End of Zorn List Digest V3 #63 ****************************** To unsubscribe from zorn-list-digest, send an email to "majordomo@lists.xmission.com" with "unsubscribe zorn-list-digest" in the body of the message. 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