From: owner-zorn-list-digest@lists.xmission.com (Zorn List Digest) To: zorn-list-digest@lists.xmission.com Subject: Zorn List Digest V3 #114 Reply-To: zorn-list Sender: owner-zorn-list-digest@lists.xmission.com Errors-To: owner-zorn-list-digest@lists.xmission.com Precedence: bulk Zorn List Digest Monday, October 16 2000 Volume 03 : Number 114 In this issue: - Bailey/Prevost (no Zorn content) 1 Masada enough ? what about speed ? Most important Zorn contribution? 1 masada is enough Re: 1 masada is enough Re: 1 masada is enough Odp: 1 masada is enough Re: Odp: 1 masada is enough Prague/Amsterdam/Finland (no jz) Re: Odp: 1 masada is enough iva Odp: iva AMM/Karkowski Re: AMM Re: 1 masada is enough Style?(was Masada) Re: rose moss king long ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Date: Sat, 14 Oct 2000 15:56:00 -0400 From: "Jesse Kudler" Subject: Bailey/Prevost (no Zorn content) Probably of interest to at least a few people: While looking around the AMM/Matchless website, I just noticed that Derek Bailey and Eddie Prevost have a duo album due out this fall (which I take to mean any day now) on a label I've never heard of, San Wired. Anyone have more info? - -Jesse - - ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 11 Oct 2000 22:06:39 +0200 From: "Rob, the Belgian guy" Subject: 1 Masada enough ? Matt said: "The Masada stuff may be popular but certainly not groundbreaking (not to mention one album would have been quite enough." I have to disagree that one Masada album would be enough. Masada is a _real_ band (not just a project) and NEEDS more than one album to create live playlists with a certain amount of variation. For me they could make five more albums (maybe with some new elements) anytime now. I'd buy 'em all !! - - ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 11 Oct 2000 23:08:09 +0200 From: "Rob, the Belgian guy" Subject: what about speed ? I didn't like "Iffy" too much either, but Speed's sound and melody with Pachora is majestic. He still has to prove that same level in other environments. kurt said: |np: chris speed trio - iffy (there's something about speed |that i've never been able to put my finger on, but it never quite |reaches full steam for me. this is a nice disc, though. quite |good. perowsky, |with saft on organ and synth. most enjoyable, and firey playing |from the leader.| - - ------------------------------ Date: Sat, 14 Oct 2000 19:04:42 CDT From: "samuel yrui" Subject: Most important Zorn contribution? funniest of all... Spillane was a kind of SGT Pepper record for me... i like that comparision. funny funny - -samuel But SPILLANE was kind of a SGT PEPPER record to me. skip h - - _________________________________________________________________________ Get Your Private, Free E-mail from MSN Hotmail at http://www.hotmail.com. Share information about yourself, create your own public profile at http://profiles.msn.com. - - ------------------------------ Date: Sat, 14 Oct 2000 20:19:59 EDT From: User384726@aol.com Subject: 1 masada is enough Matt said: "The Masada stuff may be popular but certainly not groundbreaking (not to mention one album would have been quite enough." In the entire scope of music I think one could say that one album would have been enough but Zorn openly said one of the things he was trying to do with Masada was to have a song book ala Monk. I feel Masada tunes can be looked at as whole as sounding the same or Coleman meets Klezmer, but there are many tunes, solo's, and grooves I love which could not have existed had there only been one album. Also I wouldn't compare Masada to Miles stopping after Kind of Blue but more to the mid to late sixties quintet. There isn't a giant difference (Think Kind of Blue and Bitches Brew or Ascension and Love Supreme) between Miles Smiles, Nefertiti, E.S.P., Miles in The Sky, etc. Aaron Solomon - - ------------------------------ Date: Sat, 14 Oct 2000 20:42:24 EDT From: Nudeants@aol.com Subject: Re: 1 masada is enough In a message dated 10/14/00 8:21:03 PM Eastern Daylight Time, User384726@aol.com writes: << In the entire scope of music I think one could say that one album would have been enough but Zorn openly said one of the things he was trying to do with Masada was to have a song book ala Monk. I feel Masada tunes can be looked at as whole as sounding the same or Coleman meets Klezmer, but there are many tunes, solo's, and grooves I love which could not have existed had there only been one album. Also I wouldn't compare Masada to Miles stopping after Kind of Blue but more to the mid to late sixties quintet. There isn't a giant difference (Think Kind of Blue and Bitches Brew or Ascension and Love Supreme) between Miles Smiles, Nefertiti, E.S.P., Miles in The Sky, etc. >> I understend the point made in the first paragraph. Yet, while I can recognize the essence of what you're saying in the second paragraph, I couldn't say with a straight face that the playing or writing on the Masada albums is even remotely in the same league as any of the Miles albums. Additionally, would one not say that there's a great deal of evolution from ESP to Files de Kilimanjaro? The Masada guys for me are playing styles, while the Miles group was playing music. - -matt mitchell - - ------------------------------ Date: Sat, 14 Oct 2000 21:14:18 -0400 From: Joseph Zitt Subject: Re: 1 masada is enough On Sat, Oct 14, 2000 at 08:42:24PM -0400, Nudeants@aol.com wrote: > The Masada guys for me are playing styles, while the Miles group was playing > music. Er, what? Is there a context in which this sentence means something? - -- |> ~The only thing that is not art is inattention~ --- Marcel Duchamp <| | jzitt@metatronpress.com http://www.metatronpress.com/jzitt | | Latest CD: Jerusaklyn http://www.mp3.com/josephzitt | | Comma: Voices of New Music Silence: the John Cage Discussion List | - - ------------------------------ Date: Sun, 15 Oct 2000 11:25:51 +0200 From: "Marcin Gokieli" Subject: Odp: 1 masada is enough From: > In a message dated 10/14/00 8:21:03 PM Eastern Daylight Time, > User384726@aol.com writes: >> Also I wouldn't compare Masada to Miles stopping after Kind of Blue but more > > to the mid to late sixties quintet. There isn't a giant difference (Think > > Kind of Blue and Bitches Brew or Ascension and Love Supreme) between Miles > > Smiles, Nefertiti, E.S.P., Miles in The Sky, etc. > paragraph, I couldn't say with a straight face that the playing or writing on > the Masada albums is even remotely in the same league as any of the Miles > albums. Additionally, would one not say that there's a great deal of > evolution from ESP to Files de Kilimanjaro? Of course, the change is big. And 'Filles' is an absolute materpiece, the music on the album reaches is one of the highlight of music. > The Masada guys for me are playing styles, while the Miles group was playing > music. However, I must say that i strongly disagree here. First let m say that Masada is IMO the best 'jazz' group now. I think that the connection with Coleman was overemphasized. Of course, there's an Colemaneque element in there, but it's just one of the elements. The main difference between MAsada and OC's bands is the degree to which those pieces are composed: There are masad tunes that are very strict composistions, even if they allow a large degree of improv within the composed structure. there's an element of discipline that is lacking in Coleman's bands. I see masad more as a kind of modern Bartok or Stravinsky then 'folk free jazz'. And I like masada more then anything by Coleman i've heard. Marcin Gokieli marcin.gokieli@mospan.pl marcingokieli@go2.pl - - ------------------------------ Date: Sun, 15 Oct 2000 09:43:32 EDT From: Samerivertwice@aol.com Subject: Re: Odp: 1 masada is enough In a message dated 10/15/00 5:35:22 AM Eastern Daylight Time, marcin.gokieli@mospan.pl writes: << > The Masada guys for me are playing styles, while the Miles group was playing > music. However, I must say that i strongly disagree here. First let m say that Masada is IMO the best 'jazz' group now. I think that the connection with Coleman was overemphasized. Of course, there's an Colemaneque element in there, but it's just one of the elements. The main difference between MAsada and OC's bands is the degree to which those pieces are composed: There are masad tunes that are very strict composistions, even if they allow a large degree of improv within the composed structure. there's an element of discipline that is lacking in Coleman's bands. I see masad more as a kind of modern Bartok or Stravinsky then 'folk free jazz'. And I like masada more then anything by Coleman i've heard. Marcin Gokieli >> Yes, exactly, um, what he said. Also, I'd like to point out that because of Masada's supposed "popularity," more people are getting turned on to Zorn and his cohorts than ever before. I can understand why someone may not appreciate or like Masada as much as other Zorn projects, but I think it's too sweeping and dismissive to claim they are a one-trick pony. (And even if they are, what a trick!) Thanks to this list, listening to Rautavaara's Violin Concerto, Tom ________________________________________________ The dignity of art appears to the greatest advantage perhaps in music, because that art contains no material to be deducted. It is wholly form and intrinsic value, and it elevates and ennobles everything which it expresses. --Johann Wolfgang Von Goethe - - ------------------------------ Date: Sun, 15 Oct 2000 11:11:41 EDT From: Orangejazz@aol.com Subject: Prague/Amsterdam/Finland (no jz) I have a friend who is going to the afformentioned places, and I'd like for him to pick me up some strange/avant-garde music.I'm not currently aware of any good record stores in the area, and maybe particular musicians that are related to the scene. Is that whole Mego scene going on in that area? Well, regardless. This is moderately un-related to Zorn, so feel free to Email me privately, as soon as possible, being that this person is leaving tonight. from, matt - - ------------------------------ Date: Sun, 15 Oct 2000 12:10:41 EDT From: Nudeants@aol.com Subject: Re: Odp: 1 masada is enough Actually, its not even necessarily 'dismissive' to say such a thing at all. OK, I'm not really a huge fan, even though I'll admit to owning 4 Masada albums (1,2,3, and 6) and having heard more, yet I don't think its a secret that Zorn thinks in terms of styles in music. Now, aside from the fact that one has to 'call' a style of music 'something' in order to talk about it, there are definitely musicians who think of music as 'styles' and people who think of music as 'music.' Not to say that there isn't nebulous overlap; there pretty much always is. But my favorite Zorn projects are those that transcend 'styles' and get to 'music.' Torture Garden, which admittedly has its jump-cutting through styles at some points, seems to manage to transcend its 'style' preoccupations and be music. The same with Elegy, Absinthe, Heretic, probably Redbird and Duras:Duchamp also. However, though I like Spillane, Cobra and other things that are 'style' - -bound, they seem a little trapped by these preoccupations. Masada seems like a lengthy exploration of a couple of specific 'styles.' It feels more like they are playing the Ornette/middle eastern(whatever you want to call it) style combination than transcending the limitations of the style definition and getting to the underlying music. Miles' group and the Ornette group did this, however. They new that on a certain level they were playing 'jazz,' but that on the most important level they were playing music. That's all I meant. - -matt mitchell In a message dated 10/15/00 9:45:29 AM Eastern Daylight Time, Samerivertwice@aol.com writes: << In a message dated 10/15/00 5:35:22 AM Eastern Daylight Time, marcin.gokieli@mospan.pl writes: << > The Masada guys for me are playing styles, while the Miles group was playing > music. However, I must say that i strongly disagree here. First let m say that Masada is IMO the best 'jazz' group now. I think that the connection with Coleman was overemphasized. Of course, there's an Colemaneque element in there, but it's just one of the elements. The main difference between MAsada and OC's bands is the degree to which those pieces are composed: There are masad tunes that are very strict composistions, even if they allow a large degree of improv within the composed structure. there's an element of discipline that is lacking in Coleman's bands. I see masad more as a kind of modern Bartok or Stravinsky then 'folk free jazz'. And I like masada more then anything by Coleman i've heard. Marcin Gokieli >> Yes, exactly, um, what he said. Also, I'd like to point out that because of Masada's supposed "popularity," more people are getting turned on to Zorn and his cohorts than ever before. I can understand why someone may not appreciate or like Masada as much as other Zorn projects, but I think it's too sweeping and dismissive to claim they are a one-trick pony. (And even if they are, what a trick!) Thanks to this list, listening to Rautavaara's Violin Concerto, Tom ________________________________________________ The dignity of art appears to the greatest advantage perhaps in music, because that art contains no material to be deducted. It is wholly form and intrinsic value, and it elevates and ennobles everything which it expresses. --Johann Wolfgang Von Goethe >> - - ------------------------------ Date: Sun, 15 Oct 2000 12:35:14 EDT From: ObviousEye@aol.com Subject: iva In a message dated 10/11/00 1:38:49 PM Eastern Daylight Time, owner-zorn-list-digest@lists.xmission.com writes: << Pascal (np: Iva Bittova, "Bile Inferno") >> How is this? i liked the one song on the Tamizdat Comp. Ben - - ------------------------------ Date: Sun, 15 Oct 2000 19:38:12 +0200 From: "Jerzy Matysiakiewicz" Subject: Odp: iva - ----- Wiadomosc oryginalna ----- Od: Do: Wyslano: 15 pazdziernika 2000 18:35 Temat: iva | In a message dated 10/11/00 1:38:49 PM Eastern Daylight Time, | owner-zorn-list-digest@lists.xmission.com writes: | | << Pascal | (np: Iva Bittova, "Bile Inferno") | >> | | How is this? i liked the one song on the Tamizdat Comp. | | Ben Buy or die. Wonderful 2CD set wit the guest apperaence of Tom Cora. Jerzy - - ------------------------------ Date: Sun, 15 Oct 2000 17:19:50 EDT From: JonAbbey2@aol.com Subject: AMM/Karkowski In a message dated 10/13/00 4:41:37 PM, kurt_gottschalk@scni.com writes: << there was some talk of him here recent, yeah? someone give me the lowdown, background, etc. please? and helmut schlafer, if you would. >> I don't know a lot about his background, but easily the best release I've ever heard from him is the recent 3 inch CD on Mego, IT. just back from Autumn Uprising. AMM last night was the best improv set I've ever seen, not counting the 24 hour MIMEO show. I'll wait for other people to post about the show before I say more; it was a pretty overwhelming experience, and I'm still trying to absorb it to some extent. Jon www.erstwhilerecords.com - - ------------------------------ Date: Sun, 15 Oct 2000 17:44:10 EDT From: OnionPalac@aol.com Subject: Re: AMM When I listened back to the AMM show on my minidisc I realized at the end of their hour long set it took people over a minute to come to grip with reality and start clapping. The longest space between band-ending/audience-clapping I ever experienced. I didn't know this at the time because I went into such a deep trance during their set. Kudos to Duo Process as well. That shit was wild! I wish I knew free ice cream was going around. - - ------------------------------ Date: Sun, 15 Oct 2000 17:50:38 -0500 From: "sergio luque" Subject: Re: 1 masada is enough Nudeants@aol.com: >there are definitely musicians who think of music > as 'styles' and people who think of music as >'music.' and what about the listeners who definitely think of music as 'styles' and the listeners who think of music as 'music'(whether they like this music or not)? do musicians who definitely think of music as music make music in different styles? >But my favorite Zorn projects are those that >transcend 'styles' and get to 'music.' Torture >Garden, which admittedly has its jump-cutting >through styles at some points, at some points?!?!? come on! ;-) seriously, for me it is interesting that zorn has the luxury of choosing the genre or genres that best suit his compositional needs. and i envy that. while, for many composers, this is not an option (and may seem insincere or superficial), all of them compose in a genre (following some rules of what to do and what not to do), even xenakis :-)(which for me represents, i don't know why, some kind of out-of-those-things-called-genres music). what is zorn trying to achieve with his genre of 'mixing a lot of genres in the same piece' in pieces like _carny_? in this piece, the jump-cutting is pretty obvious but, imho, the important part is somewhere else, and this use of this genre intrigues me. regards, __________________________________________________ sergio luque sergio@tomate.com.mx - - ------------------------------ Date: Sun, 15 Oct 2000 19:48:58 EDT From: User384726@aol.com Subject: Style?(was Masada) >But my favorite Zorn projects are those that transcend 'styles' and get to 'music.' What's the difference? Is Robert Johnson just playing the blues? Is A Love Supreme or Kind of Blue just modal jazz? Is Bach just writing fugues? Are Zorn's "cut and paste" compositions just Stalling rip-offs? There's so much "music" out there that transcends a the "style" which it encompasses. And within each style isn't there unlimited possibilities. Is rock music Zappa, Hanson, or Peter Gabriel? We can be extremely nit picky and label every bit of every album or except it for what it is...music...unless you feel "World Music" is a viable genre. Aaron Solomon - - ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 16 Oct 2000 09:29:46 +0200 (MET DST) From: Steve Berman Subject: Re: rose moss king long >>>>> "kurt" == kurt gottschalk writes: kurt> some great things this week... kurt> jon rose wednesday night at tonic, with mark dresser(bass, kurt> who actually seemed to be leading the quartet), tomas kurt> ulrich(cello) and a phenomenal violinist first-named mari. kurt> i'm sure someone will fill in the blank for me. Mari Kimura? kurt> [...] a brilliant violinist i'd never heard kurt> before. deep, deep stuff. challenging listening. If it is Kimura, she has a number recorded appearances; the two I've heard and can very much recommend are _Acoustics_ with Henry Kaiser, Jim O'Rourke and John Oswald (Victo) and _Irrefragable Dreams_ with Robert Dick (Random Acoustics). For more info see http://pages.nyu.edu/~mk4/ (which however seems to be two and a half years out of date). - --Steve Berman - - ------------------------------ End of Zorn List Digest V3 #114 ******************************* To unsubscribe from zorn-list-digest, send an email to "majordomo@lists.xmission.com" with "unsubscribe zorn-list-digest" in the body of the message. For information on digests or retrieving files and old messages send "help" to the same address. Do not use quotes in your message. A non-digest (direct mail) version of this list is also available; to subscribe to that instead, replace all instances of "zorn-list-digest" in the commands above with "zorn-list". Back issues are available for anonymous FTP from ftp.xmission.com, in pub/lists/zorn-list/archive. These are organized by date. Problems? Email the list owner at zorn-list-owner@lists.xmission.com