From: owner-zorn-list-digest@lists.xmission.com (Zorn List Digest) To: zorn-list-digest@lists.xmission.com Subject: Zorn List Digest V3 #177 Reply-To: zorn-list Sender: owner-zorn-list-digest@lists.xmission.com Errors-To: owner-zorn-list-digest@lists.xmission.com Precedence: bulk Zorn List Digest Saturday, November 25 2000 Volume 03 : Number 177 In this issue: - Re: Stephen Horenstein Bill Laswell "Invisible Design" (Tzadik) Death cube k(Bill,as well) Re: Death cube k(Bill,as well) Re: Death cube k(Bill,as well) Re: Re: Death cube k(Bill,as well) zorn, postmodernism, and avantgardism Re: Death cube k(Bill,as well) Blue Notes/Brotherhood Of Breath bailey/marre? Zorn & pastiche Chadbourne In Ventura Re: Zorn & pastiche Identify this unknown disc ? Shot Maker Re: Identify this unknown disc ? ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Date: Thu, 23 Nov 2000 16:26:12 -0500 (EST) From: Ken Waxman Subject: Re: Stephen Horenstein But has he ever recorded again? It seems to me that on the Collage disc to be dealing with (in 1985) some of the musical ideas that are common currency now in the improv and/or contemporary compositional scene. Ken Waxman - --- George Scala wrote: > I believe Stephen Horenstein has been living and > teaching in Israel the past > 20 years or so. _______________________________________________________ Do You Yahoo!? Get your free @yahoo.ca address at http://mail.yahoo.ca - - ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 24 Nov 2000 13:48:36 +1030 From: "sinkas" Subject: Bill Laswell "Invisible Design" (Tzadik) Hi all, I really like this disc, and have had it for some time now, I only = picked it up as it was in a second-hand store, Im glad I did! I think I recall this disc getting a pretty bad rap on this list, and I = never understoof why, as to me it sounds so mellow and sweet. Does anyoe know who plays on the album, is it all just Laswell, as I = cant see any other credits, I didnt get the spine card, so maybe it was = mentioned on that. If i dig this disc, is there any other discs that anyone would = reccommend, that are in a similar style. Case NP: you guessed it, Invisible Design "Alma Matters" - - ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 23 Nov 2000 20:59:31 -0800 From: "Fag music" Subject: Death cube k(Bill,as well) Speaking of which, what is this Death cube k cd?I heard it's Buckethead and Bill Laswell,but only managed to hear one track from their disembodied cd.Since I'm into Laswell AND Buckethead(who did the worst thing by joining GNR),I'd like to see some info on this one...is it good?Is it funny?Is is avant-garde?What the hell is death cube k supposed to mean anyway?Yeah,I guess that'd be cool to get some feedback. Axioms, Giant Robot >From: "sinkas" >To: >Subject: Bill Laswell "Invisible Design" (Tzadik) >Date: Fri, 24 Nov 2000 13:48:36 +1030 > >Hi all, >I really like this disc, and have had it for some time now, I only picked it up as it was in a second-hand store, Im glad I did! > >I think I recall this disc getting a pretty bad rap on this list, and I never understoof why, as to me it sounds so mellow and sweet. > >Does anyoe know who plays on the album, is it all just Laswell, as I cant see any other credits, I didnt get the spine card, so maybe it was mentioned on that. > >If i dig this disc, is there any other discs that anyone would reccommend, that are in a similar style. > >Case >NP: you guessed it, Invisible Design > > > > >"Alma Matters" > > >- - ------------------------------------------------------------ http://e2893.37.com/Free-E-Card/ <--- You Have A Greeting :) - - ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 24 Nov 2000 04:28:35 EST From: Stinkipipi@aol.com Subject: Re: Death cube k(Bill,as well) death cube k is buckethead's ambient project. guitar and atmospheres. there are 3 (i think) albums in total. the first, dreamatorium, was on the now defunct strata label. it's usually on ebay for relatively cheap. the second was disembodied, on ion. both have laswell involvement. the third is on travis dickerson records, or something travis dickerson runs. no laswell. i haven't heard the third, but the first two are quite good, imo. you can probably get them all from downtown music gallery. more info on the discography below, as well. dave bill laswell, eraldo bernocchi, mick harris and lori carson discographies : http://www.geocities.com/slntwtchr - - ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 24 Nov 2000 20:43:14 +1100 From: "Julian" Subject: Re: Death cube k(Bill,as well) > What the hell is death cube k supposed to mean anyway? I guess it means nothing, but for it's relevance I suggest that you look at it alongside the name of Laswell's associate in the project... - - ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 24 Nov 2000 04:54:05 EST From: Stinkipipi@aol.com Subject: Re: Re: Death cube k(Bill,as well) >> What the hell is death cube k supposed to mean anyway? > re-arrange the letters. it's an anagram (is that the right word?) for buckethead. dave - - ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 24 Nov 2000 13:11:46 -0000 From: "Bill Ashline" Subject: zorn, postmodernism, and avantgardism Mr. York queried to the effect that given "Elegy," "Locus Solus," and others, how could John Zorn be limited to being only a pastiche artist. To add to this argument, I could also include "Redbird" and "Filmworks 6," which I'm listening to now. My response: Does a theory need to totalize in order to be both accurate and useful? I did qualify my claim by saying "a kind of postmodernist," etc. I saw a tendency, not an absolute principle. And I've said previously in this space that residual avantgardism inhabits Zorn, as well as other influences based on his reading and travels (Locus Solus is a title based on a novel by Raymond Roussel). Nevertheless, I see Zorn as part of a milieu that saw the modernist project and avantgardism come to a conclusion. In literature, this was outlined by John Barth in "The Literature of Exhaustion," an essay that was followed by "The Literature of Replenishment" which sought to locate a postmodernist aesthetic in the recuperation of a prior era within the present (e.g. J.N. Coetzee's "Foe," based on Daniel Dafoe, Vladimir Nabokov's "Pale Fire," inspired by the 18th century British novel, and later in art in Clemente's miniatures and in philosophy in Deleuze's return to Spinoza, Leibniz, and the Baroque). Another strain of postmodernism was the complete unsettling of narrative and its immersive aspects (e.g. Alain Robbe-Grillet, Italo Calvino, etc.). The unsettling of aural immersion was one effect of Zorn's miniatures in Naked City. Yet another area was in the multiplification of ontologies via the construction of possible worlds, "Chinese-boxes" "trompe-l'oeil," the "mise-en-abyme" and diegetic crossings of ontological levels. A good book on this with regard to fiction but also touching on other areas is Brian McHale's "Postmodernist Fiction." If you're so inclined and are near a university library, you can read my article in the academic journal "Style" sometime in the fall of 1996, I believe, which is on the problem of logically impossible fictions. One of the consequences of this notion of "exhaustion" is the synthesis of seemingly disparate styles and motifs--Zorn's Masada, the much maligned Laswell's combination of dub and local ethnic musics, Jah Wobble's fusion of dub sensibilities with traditional music from Laos, etc., might serve as other conceptual versions of this postmodernist stroke. And yet another postmodernist strategy, elaborated rather well by Andreas Huyssen, was the aesthetic reversal of accursed, low genres (perhaps we could say Painkiller and Naked City are good examples of this kind of reversal, which have aspects of both pastiche and parody, particularly in NC). I've responded privately to Skip's good letter but I probably should say something more about Duchamp. The pivotal moment for Duchamp which led to the creation of the "readymade" was pivotal for Duchamp for certain; however, the artworld paid attention (Duchamp having established himself in cubism). Regardless of how one feels about philosophy and theory, all real avantgardes historically have been conceptual as much as aesthetic. this was the case with Duchamp and was his great innovation. It was a moment in which art became philosophy and it really led the way for abstraction's embrace of philosophy as well. Does any of this have anything to do with our particular enjoyments of music? Not at all. And does something necessarily have to be avantgarde in order to be good music, whatever that means? No, not at all. The point is that if there is a real avantgarde left in music, it's probably located in some relationship between the newer electronic technologies and the reconception of music as sound (IMO). I've been spinning a lot of the Erstwhile discs these days, and this stuff is really wild. It's pushing the envelope as far what can be called music, and it's methods I think are drawing attention to certain institutions of music. There are nods to Duchamp but also to minimalism. Since I don't think music has perhaps had its Duchampian moment other than perhaps with Cage, the Ritornell, Erstwhile, Mego, etc. artists may well exemplify it. But as Skip said, such a claim might only be self-packaging. _____________________________________________________________________________________ Get more from the Web. FREE MSN Explorer download : http://explorer.msn.com - - ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 24 Nov 2000 09:02:33 EST From: TagYrIt@aol.com Subject: Re: Death cube k(Bill,as well) In a message dated 11/24/00 4:45:28 AM Eastern Standard Time, jcurwin@hartingdale.com.au writes: << Subj: Re: Death cube k(Bill,as well) Date: 11/24/00 4:45:28 AM Eastern Standard Time From: jcurwin@hartingdale.com.au (Julian) Sender: owner-zorn-list@lists.xmission.com To: pattonsucks@37.com (Fag music), sinkas@camtech.net.au, zorn-list@lists.xmission.com > What the hell is death cube k supposed to mean anyway? I guess it means nothing, but for it's relevance I suggest that you look at it alongside the name of Laswell's associate in the project... >> Well in case no one else has mentioned it....if you rearrange the letters of Death Cube K, it spells Buckethead. Dale. - - ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 24 Nov 2000 10:07:47 EST From: CuneiWay@aol.com Subject: Blue Notes/Brotherhood Of Breath The Blue Notes were: Chris McGregor Dudu Pukwana Nick Moyoke [sp?] Mongezi Feza Louis Moholo Johnny Dyani they left South Africa in late '64, & landed in UK eventually. The Blue Notes eventually split up, but using all except Moyoke [who returned to S.A. to die of a brain tumor shortly after] & Dyani [who had a falling out & left & who was replaced by bassist Harry Miller], McGregor formed his unrecorded "big band", who then mutated into the Brotherhood Of Breath. There are TWO in print releases by the original version of the B.O.B. at this time: 1) their 1st - originally on RCA/NEON, & now on the German Repertoire label - a GREAT album & an excellent recording and 2) Live At Willisau - an excellent, if indiferently recorded document of them live. The band was rather beset by tragedy, & all the orig. South Africans are dead now except for Louis. Maxine McGregor, Chris' widow, wrote a book which is still in print as far as I know. It's not exactly "definitive", but it is a good window onto HER take on what was happening then & what the musicians went through. BTW - I know all of this because Cuneiform will release a CD - PROVISIONALLY entitled "Traveling Somewhere" in 2001 by Chris McGregor & The Brotherhood of Breath. For those who are interested, here's some more information: The band was: Harry Beckett - trumpet Marc Charig - trumpet Nick Evans - trombone Mongezi Feza - trumpet Malcolm Griffiths - trombone Chris McGregor - piano Harry Miller - bass Louis Moholo - drums Mike Osborne - alto sax Evan Parker - tenor sax Dudu Pukwana - alto sax Gary Windo - tenor sax The tunes are: - - set 1 - 1) MRA [Dudu Pukwana] 2) Restless [Chris McGregor] 3) Ismite Is Might [Chris McGregor] 4) Kongi's Theme [Wole Soyinka] - - set 2 - 5) Wood Fire [Chris McGregor] 6) The Bride [Dudu Pukwana] 7) Travelling Somewhere [Chris McGregor] - -set 3- 8) Think Of Something [Mike Osborne] 9) Do It [Chris McGregor] Recorded January 19th, 1973 at Lila Eule, Bremen, Germany If anyone is interested in either of the in print CDs by the Brotherhood of Breath or the Blue Notes, please contact me privately, as we have them available for sale. Steve F. Cuneiform/Wayside - - ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 24 Nov 2000 11:13:14 -0500 From: "D. Mendonca" Subject: bailey/marre? does anyone know where i can get these videos? On the Edge: Improvisation in Music Jeremy Marre (U.K., 1991) * Written, Narrated by Derek Bailey. (Each part: 58 mins, Color, 3/4" video, PFA Collection, courtesy of Harcourt Films). pls reply to mendod@rpi.edu. thanks, david - - ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 24 Nov 2000 14:22:12 -0600 From: Herb Levy Subject: Zorn & pastiche > > >"William York" wrote: > > >Bill Ashline theorized: > > >I always "read" Zorn as a kind of postmodernist who > >derived his aesthetic out of a grand pastiche, at least until Masada, > > >which was more synthetic. Postmodernists gave up on the avant-garde, > > >probably for good reason, sensing there wasn't anything more to be done > > >with it. > >Ok, but where would stuff like Archery, Classic Guide to Strategy, Pool, >Locus Solus, etc fit into this? Because those don't seem like pastiche to >me. Or maybe you weren't referring to those ... I'm not exactly sure what you mean by "pastiche" here, but all of the pieces you mention here are literally put together from modules of sounds & styles interrupting each other and often recurring. They may not use recognizable source materials to the extent that, say, most of the Naked City compositions do, but they are, at least in part, about juxtaposition. - -- Herb Levy P O Box 9369 Forth Wort, TX 76147 817 377-2983 herb@eskimo.com - - ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 24 Nov 2000 14:34:32 -0800 From: "s~Z" Subject: Chadbourne In Ventura Ventura New Music Concert Series Dr. Eugene Chadbourne Extreme Solo Guitar and Banjo December 2, 2000 Ventura City Hall, Ventura California 501 Poli Street 8 PM $10 Admission NO ADVANCE TICKET SALES. Tickets at the door only. Opening will be the Jeff Kaiser Quintet Jeff Kaiser, tpt and electronics Steuart Liebing, basses and electronics Woody Aplanalp, guitars and electronics Brad Dutz, percussion Richie West, drums - - ------------------------------ Date: Sat, 25 Nov 2000 02:36:47 EST From: Velaires@aol.com Subject: Re: Zorn & pastiche In a message dated 11/24/0 2:15:45 PM, herb@eskimo.com wrote: <> It's very easy to say Zorn is a pastiche composer, a free improvising guy, and even a jazz musician, but -- to me -- the bottom line has always been that he is a guy who uses every technique he gets near. In my experience, guys who brand themselves as using one method -- be it be-bop, cubism, or Method Acting -- tend to exclude the use of other methodology in their work. It's a process of exclusion. I've always found Zorn to be one of the most inclusive musicians (/composers) anyone can name. In regards to the "pastiche" label, I'd be more inclined to level that one at Prince Paul, Christian Marclay, or other guys whose work revolves around the cumulaticve re-use of pre-existing materials. I don't think it's a term that sits comfortably when describing the work of somebody who writes in different styles then sticks 'em together. Granted -- the pastiche approach has often resulted in some amazing music (Public Enemy springs to mind), but I think it's made of a different task than writing different blocks (or pieces) of music that come of the command of different styles anymore than a meal that includes enchiladas and french fries would be. skip h NP: George Russell -- JAZZ IN THE SPACE AGE - - ------------------------------ Date: Sat, 25 Nov 2000 22:45:29 +1030 From: "sinkas" Subject: Identify this unknown disc ? Hi all, I am seeking your wisdom, as I just found out that the Bill Laswell = Disc That I raved about before "Invisible Design", is infact not what it = seemed. I noticed that on my PC it showed 2 extra tracks so I checked = the time of the disc etc, and nothing matched up.=20 I tried CDDB, or Gracenote as its now known, but it had no listing for = this disc. It is simple kind of freejazz with leading electric guitar. The disc is off-white (very light grey?) with kind of Jackson = Pollock-esque splatterings of white over it. it has no printing on the up side. On the playside I can make out its Cat No: BSR1098 Also says "Digital Domain" in that rim on the play side as well as the = usual cd markings. It plays 9 tracks with a length of 48.40 I bought it thinking it was laswells "Invisible Design" alas it appears = its not Thanks Case "Alma Matters" - - ------------------------------ Date: Sat, 25 Nov 2000 11:32:37 -0500 From: "Me" Subject: Shot Maker This is a multi-part message in MIME format. - ------=_NextPart_000_0052_01C056D3.6955E920 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable can anyone give me any insight on this group? thanks. - ------=_NextPart_000_0052_01C056D3.6955E920 Content-Type: text/html; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable
can anyone give me any insight on this = group? =20 thanks.
- ------=_NextPart_000_0052_01C056D3.6955E920-- - - ------------------------------ Date: Sat, 25 Nov 2000 11:39:25 -0500 From: Maurice Rickard Subject: Re: Identify this unknown disc ? If nothing else, you could try contacting Bob Katz, who would have mastered it at Digital Domain. (Don't have the address myself, but there's a Web site at http://www.digido.com/ that does have an "email us" form.) HTH, Maurice At 10:45 PM +1030 11/25/00, sinkas wrote: >Hi all, > I am seeking your wisdom, as I just found out that the Bill Laswell >Disc That I raved about before "Invisible Design", is infact not >what it seemed. ... >On the playside I can make out its Cat No: BSR1098 >Also says "Digital Domain" in that rim on the play side as well as >the usual cd markings. - -- Maurice Rickard http://mauricerickard.com/ - - ------------------------------ End of Zorn List Digest V3 #177 ******************************* To unsubscribe from zorn-list-digest, send an email to "majordomo@lists.xmission.com" with "unsubscribe zorn-list-digest" in the body of the message. For information on digests or retrieving files and old messages send "help" to the same address. Do not use quotes in your message. A non-digest (direct mail) version of this list is also available; to subscribe to that instead, replace all instances of "zorn-list-digest" in the commands above with "zorn-list". Back issues are available for anonymous FTP from ftp.xmission.com, in pub/lists/zorn-list/archive. These are organized by date. Problems? Email the list owner at zorn-list-owner@lists.xmission.com