From: owner-zorn-list-digest@lists.xmission.com (Zorn List Digest) To: zorn-list-digest@lists.xmission.com Subject: Zorn List Digest V3 #192 Reply-To: zorn-list Sender: owner-zorn-list-digest@lists.xmission.com Errors-To: owner-zorn-list-digest@lists.xmission.com Precedence: bulk Zorn List Digest Friday, December 8 2000 Volume 03 : Number 192 In this issue: - Re: ribot/mmw/james carter Re[2]: ribot/mmw/james carter Re: ribot/mmw/james carter Re: Berne/Gibbs/Ducret/Taborn/Rainey Re[2]: ribot/mmw/james carter Re[2]: Berne/Gibbs/Ducret/Taborn/Rainey Extra tickets for Masada on December 9 Re[2]: ribot/mmw/james carter Saft "Sovlanut" (+ Jim Black) / Graves "Stories" Re: Saft "Sovlanut" (+ Jim Black) / Graves "Stories" Re: Quick one regarding Xu Feng Re: Saft "Sovlanut" (+ Jim Black) Re: henri salvador Re: french pop Re: ribot/mmw/james carter Re: Saft "Sovlanut" (+ Jim Black) Mano Negra Re: Saft "Sovlanut" (+ Jim Black) ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Date: Thu, 07 Dec 2000 20:13:21 -0500 From: Steve Smith Subject: Re: ribot/mmw/james carter Peter Gannushkin wrote: > I think that the main James Carter problem is that his goal is to be > respected. Seems like he could play more non-standard stuff instead of > just perfect versions of well known music. I'm not so positive about this. My own respect for Carter grew appreciably when he covered an Anthony Braxton tune on his 'Conversin' with the Elders' album. That's not something his fellow young mainstream colleagues would ever have considered. Throughout his career he's shown signs of having much broader interests than the typical young jazz suit, and the important thing is that he's acted upon them. He's also logged valuable time with Lester Bowie and has done some subbing for various members of the World Saxophone Quartet. Wynton Marsalis, his prototype from one generation prior, released a bunch of boring records last year, and all of the jazz releases in the series pretty much toed the line at either literal recreation of the past (which is not to say he didn't put something of his own stamp on it - which in fact rendered his Monk record stupendously awful) or slavish imitation of the past. In contrast, Carter released two records this year, and they couldn't be more different in content or tone. And neither is beholden to the hard bop verities of the mainstream. In fact, it took a LOT of guts, I'm sure, for him to propose recording an album for a major label with Ribot (a labelmate, conveniently), Jef Lee Johnson, Tacuma and Weston. He's lucky that he's got one of the more open-minded major label A&R guys in his corner. My main problem with Carter is his accute awareness of his outstanding technical gifts, coupled with at time dubious taste in their deployment. Too often he tends to engage in tasteless showboating, simply overwhelming the listener with the number of notes he can play and the volume at which he can produce them. I heard a bartender at the Village Vanguard one night, immediately after a Carter set, clutch his head and say, "Bring on the dental drill..." This is a subjective reaction, of course, and the reaction of others may vary - some find it tremendously exciting. And you could level exactly the same charge at numerous free jazz sax players, maybe, but context is everything, and subtlety can be lost along the way. What I will give up to Carter is that he's had more courage to explore than virtually anyone else operating in the mainstream of the industry. Steve Smith ssmith36@sprynet.com - - ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 7 Dec 2000 21:22:45 -0500 From: Peter Gannushkin Subject: Re[2]: ribot/mmw/james carter Hello Steve, Thursday, December 07, 2000, you wrote to me: >> I think that the main James Carter problem is that his goal is to be >> respected. Seems like he could play more non-standard stuff instead of >> just perfect versions of well known music. SS> I'm not so positive about this. My own respect for Carter grew appreciably when SS> he covered an Anthony Braxton tune on his 'Conversin' with the Elders' album. SS> That's not something his fellow young mainstream colleagues would ever have SS> considered. Throughout his career he's shown signs of having much broader SS> interests than the typical young jazz suit, and the important thing is that he's SS> acted upon them. He's also logged valuable time with Lester Bowie and has done SS> some subbing for various members of the World Saxophone Quartet. I didn't mean that he is playing mainstream music only. But he is not playing (I think) something that was not explored before. It was not bad at all when he was just a very young musician who could play anything from touchy ballads to free jazz to Braxton and Bowie, but I was always waiting that he will invent his own style, will go to his own direction. Almost all his recording, although they are mostly all different, sound like a luxurious copy of the music somebody else played already. They are probably unreachable technically but they never have new ideas. That's the problem for me. In the same time when I want to relax from creative music I listen Carter's music. I even can say that he is my favorite "normal" young jazz musician. - -- Best regards, Peter Gannushkin e-mail: shkin@shkin.com URL: http://www.downtownmusic.net/ - - ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 8 Dec 2000 11:37:35 +0800 From: numbats@iinet.net.au Subject: Re: ribot/mmw/james carter >I think that the main James Carter problem is that his goal is to be >respected. Seems like he could play more non-standard stuff instead of >just perfect versions of well known music. Hi, Surely the guy is just trying to make a living and trying to hang on to his integrity without compromising too much. I enjoyed the album with Ribot a lot. MMW are not in the same class. Apply the same principles you apply to Carter to the ubiquitous Ribot who really is the hired gun on anything from "pop" to AG and think about it. regards, Billy - - ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 7 Dec 2000 22:57:16 EST From: Fastian@aol.com Subject: Re: Berne/Gibbs/Ducret/Taborn/Rainey << > I know that Marc Ducret made almost all his recordings on JMT and > Label Bleu. Does anybody know where to find them in the US, > preferably on-line? Try Cadence, http://www.cadencebuilding.com. -- Caleb Deupree cdeupree@erinet.com >> Cadence hasn't carried Label Bleu for quite some time. Try allegro-music.com. I haven't actually bought from them but I know stores buy from them. It looks like they sell to the general public. They have Label Bleu, Black Saint, GM, many others. It seems most are priced at $12.78. They have "Gris" and "Le Kodo" by Ducret. I would recommend "Gris" highly as well. "Le Kodo" has nice tunes but Larry Schneider has a real syrupy tone on sax. While we're talking about music vendors, I'd like to thank who ever mentioned Berkshire Record outlet. I managed to snag Arcado String Trio"s "For Three Strings and Orchestra" and Maurice Horsthuis' Amsterdam Drama for 6 or 7 dollars each with no punch holes. I've been looking for that Arcado for a long time. John Threadgould np Death Ambient-Frith,Hideki,Mori - - ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 7 Dec 2000 23:39:50 -0500 From: Peter Gannushkin Subject: Re[2]: ribot/mmw/james carter Hello Billy, Thursday, December 07, 2000, you wrote to me: >>I think that the main James Carter problem is that his goal is to be >>respected. Seems like he could play more non-standard stuff instead of >>just perfect versions of well known music. nina> Surely the guy is just trying to make a living and trying to hang on to his nina> integrity without compromising too much. Cannot agree with it. Where is his not compromising behavior? I cannot see it. nina> I enjoyed the album with Ribot a lot. I enjoyed it too, but I didn't find anything I never heard before. nina> MMW are not in the same class. What do you mean by that? nina> Apply the same principles you apply to Carter to the ubiquitous nina> Ribot who really is the hired gun on anything from "pop" to AG nina> and think about it. Ribot is playing a lot as a sideman. It is different. His own projects at the same time have their unique taste and style. I cannot say that they are always surprising and outstanding, but they are developed by himself. That's I think partly the reason why he is invited so often to play with other musicians. He always adds something very personal and fresh to music he is working with. - -- Best regards, Peter Gannushkin e-mail: shkin@shkin.com URL: http://www.downtownmusic.net/ - - ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 8 Dec 2000 01:49:49 -0500 From: Peter Gannushkin Subject: Re[2]: Berne/Gibbs/Ducret/Taborn/Rainey Hello John, Thursday, December 07, 2000, you wrote to me: Fac> << > I know that Marc Ducret made almost all his recordings on JMT and Fac> > Label Bleu. Does anybody know where to find them in the US, Fac> > preferably on-line? Fac> Try Cadence, http://www.cadencebuilding.com. Fac> Cadence hasn't carried Label Bleu for quite some time. Try Fac> allegro-music.com. I haven't actually bought from them but I know stores buy Fac> from them. It looks like they sell to the general public. They have Label Fac> Bleu, Black Saint, GM, many others. It seems most are priced at $12.78. Fac> They have "Gris" and "Le Kodo" by Ducret. I would recommend "Gris" highly as Fac> well. "Le Kodo" has nice tunes but Larry Schneider has a real syrupy tone on Fac> sax. Thanks a lot. I completely forgot about this web site. Actually they have also special CyberMusic Surplus (http://www.cybermusicsurplus.com/) site with many CDs on sale. The prices are at least twice lower than on the main Allegro site. Both Label Bleu Ducret's albums are there. - -- Best regards, Peter Gannushkin e-mail: shkin@shkin.com URL: http://www.downtownmusic.net/ - - ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 8 Dec 2000 01:49:56 -0500 From: Peter Gannushkin Subject: Extra tickets for Masada on December 9 Hello All, Sorry for all people not from New York city, but I should make this offer here. I have 3 extra tickets (2 for sure) for the first set (8 PM) of Masada concert on December 9. They are $25 each. If anybody interested in them, please let me know by e-mail as soon as possible. Best regards, Peter Gannushkin e-mail: shkin@shkin.com URL: http://www.downtownmusic.net/ - - ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 8 Dec 2000 01:52:06 -0500 From: Peter Gannushkin Subject: Re[2]: ribot/mmw/james carter Hello Billy, Thursday, December 07, 2000, you wrote to me: >>I think that the main James Carter problem is that his goal is to be >>respected. Seems like he could play more non-standard stuff instead of >>just perfect versions of well known music. nina> Surely the guy is just trying to make a living and trying to hang on to his nina> integrity without compromising too much. Cannot agree with it. Where is his not compromising behavior? I cannot see it. nina> I enjoyed the album with Ribot a lot. I enjoyed it too, but I didn't find anything I never heard before. nina> MMW are not in the same class. What do you mean by that? nina> Apply the same principles you apply to Carter to the ubiquitous nina> Ribot who really is the hired gun on anything from "pop" to AG nina> and think about it. Ribot is playing a lot as a sideman. It is different. His own projects at the same time have their unique taste and style. I cannot say that they are always surprising and outstanding, but they are developed by himself. That's I think partly the reason why he is invited so often to play with other musicians. He always adds something very personal and fresh to music he is working with. - -- Best regards, Peter Gannushkin e-mail: shkin@shkin.com URL: http://www.downtownmusic.net/ - - ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 08 Dec 2000 09:39:58 +0100 From: patRice Subject: Saft "Sovlanut" (+ Jim Black) / Graves "Stories" Hi there... Got two Tzadik CDs in the post the other day. Jamie Saft's "Sovlanut" is quite enjoyable. I think he's absolutely great on keys. (He also plays some pretty cool guitar parts on this CD.) The way Tzadik advertised this release best describes it: sort of dub, reggae, drum'n'bass with a Jewish/Arabic twist to it. If memory serves right, there was some talk about Jim Black (drums) on the list a while ago. I think his performance on Saft's CD is pretty good. The only thing I personally don't like are the bits where the drums (toms) are pitched rather high. Milford Graves' "Stories" is quite an experience. Very hard to talk about or explain. I think Graves is absolutely mad; but in a very positive sense. The last track (on which he sort of "sings" along in English) really puts a smile on my face every time I play it. patRice np: Masada, Live In Sevilla nr: Takahiro Kitamura, Bushido - Legacies of the Japanese Tattoo - - ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 08 Dec 2000 10:14:52 +0100 From: "Andreas Dietz" Subject: Re: Saft "Sovlanut" (+ Jim Black) / Graves "Stories" >From: patRice > >Got two Tzadik CDs in the post the other day. > >Jamie Saft's "Sovlanut" is quite enjoyable. I think he's absolutely >great on keys. (He also plays some pretty cool guitar parts on this CD.) >The way Tzadik advertised this release best describes it: sort of dub, >reggae, drum'n'bass with a Jewish/Arabic twist to it. Iīll second this recommendation. There are very different tunes on this CD and we havenīt heard such a combination before. His contributions on Zornīs Taboo & Exile is outstanding too. I think we could expect a lot from Mr. Saft in the future. Andreas _____________________________________________________________________________________ Get more from the Web. FREE MSN Explorer download : http://explorer.msn.com - - ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 8 Dec 2000 10:19:30 +0100 (MET) From: zxmqq16@student.uni-tuebingen.de Subject: Re: Quick one regarding Xu Feng > As for this album, > I thought Trey Spruance played on it....but I read somewhere it's Fred Firth.So,this means there are two guitar players on Xu Feng?I hadn't look at the cover of the cd yet,so I dunno who's playing what...anyone? > Dragons, > Shangkuan Lingfeng trey spruance played in the xu feng ensemble that can be heard on the "(y)earbook 2" cd released by Rastascan Records (www.rastascan.com) several years ago.... Bjoern - - ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 08 Dec 2000 10:31:07 +0100 From: patRice Subject: Re: Saft "Sovlanut" (+ Jim Black) Andreas Dietz wrote: > I=B4ll second this recommendation. There are very different tunes on th= is CD > and we haven=B4t heard such a combination before. > His contributions on Zorn=B4s Taboo & Exile is outstanding too. I think= we > could expect a lot from Mr. Saft in the future. >=20 > Andreas >=20 Absolutely agree with you, Andreas. I also think we can expect quite something from Jamie in the future. His performance on "Blues For Tiki" (off "Taboo & Exile") is absolutely breathtaking; it sends shivers down my spine every time I hear it. Not to mention Marc Ribot on that track... :-) I'm also very much looking forward to hearing Saft on "Trembling Before God" (aka Filmworks IX).=20 patRice - - ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 8 Dec 2000 11:21:05 +0100 From: "dekater" Subject: Re: henri salvador >I am really curious about this box set. Also the work of Henri Salvador. I >presume that he's a major entertainer in France. What kind of work did he >do with Vian? > Salvador and Vian were close friends. They co-operated a lot. When they heard rock 'n roll for the first time they thought it a joke. They laughed themselves till death. In a few hours they a dozen or so french rock songs which are in the box set, sung by Salvador. Vians song texts (478) are brought together in the book 'Chansons' (Ed. Christian Bourgois). Jan Luyben - - ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 8 Dec 2000 11:38:08 +0100 From: "dekater" Subject: Re: french pop - -----Oorspronkelijk bericht----- Van: dekater Aan: Patrice L. Roussel Datum: vrijdag 8 december 2000 11:23 Onderwerp: Re: french pop > >>The last time that a new French band got some limited exposure in the US, >>it was with La Mano Negra. >> >> Patrice. > >This was the group Manu Chao belonged to before he went solo. > >Jan Luyben > - - ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 08 Dec 2000 12:22:31 +0100 From: "Andreas Dietz" Subject: Re: ribot/mmw/james carter >From: Steve Smith > >My main problem with Carter is his accute awareness of his outstanding >technical >gifts, coupled with at time dubious taste in their deployment. Too often >he >tends to engage in tasteless showboating, simply overwhelming the listener >with >the number of notes he can play and the volume at which he can produce >them. very well said, Steve. Thereīs really a difference between his possibilities and the results. Perhaps a blowing session with Carter and David Murray could be interesting. Iīm sure Carter would be the winner, but this is old-fashioned nowadays. Andreas _____________________________________________________________________________________ Get more from the Web. FREE MSN Explorer download : http://explorer.msn.com - - ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 8 Dec 2000 06:24:41 EST From: Samerivertwice@aol.com Subject: Re: Saft "Sovlanut" (+ Jim Black) In a message dated 12/8/00 4:31:59 AM Eastern Standard Time, gda@datacomm.ch writes: << I'm also very much looking forward to hearing Saft on "Trembling Before God" (aka Filmworks IX). patRice >> Go out and buy it now! It's stunning! Morning, Tom ________________________________________________ The dignity of art appears to the greatest advantage perhaps in music, because that art contains no material to be deducted. It is wholly form and intrinsic value, and it elevates and ennobles everything which it expresses. --Johann Wolfgang Von Goethe - - ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 8 Dec 2000 13:06:25 +0100 From: "Diego Gruber" Subject: Mano Negra > ...and Manu Chao (not quite French). Check out 'Clandestino'. > Manu Chao is good, but I think his work with Mano Negra was far more diverse and interesting. Not quite French is correct, i think there are more latin elements of music in there, and it is great, especially fun. He sings in French, English, Spanish and sometimes Arab (i think) I would really recommend King of Bongo, Puta's Fever and Casa Babylon. I think a best-of was also released. Diego - - ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 8 Dec 2000 23:50:51 +1100 From: "Julian" Subject: Re: Saft "Sovlanut" (+ Jim Black) << Absolutely agree with you, Andreas. I also think we can expect quite something from Jamie in the future. His performance on "Blues For Tiki" (off "Taboo & Exile") is absolutely breathtaking; it sends shivers down my spine every time I hear it. Not to mention Marc Ribot on that track... :-) >> Everyone (especially the people who are praising Saft) should check out Bobby Previte's "Too Close To The Pole", which features Saft and other great young players (like Cuong Vu, Curtis Hasselbring and Andrew D'Angelo) and of course some of Previte's most wonderful composition and arrangement... - - ------------------------------ End of Zorn List Digest V3 #192 ******************************* To unsubscribe from zorn-list-digest, send an email to "majordomo@lists.xmission.com" with "unsubscribe zorn-list-digest" in the body of the message. For information on digests or retrieving files and old messages send "help" to the same address. Do not use quotes in your message. A non-digest (direct mail) version of this list is also available; to subscribe to that instead, replace all instances of "zorn-list-digest" in the commands above with "zorn-list". Back issues are available for anonymous FTP from ftp.xmission.com, in pub/lists/zorn-list/archive. These are organized by date. Problems? Email the list owner at zorn-list-owner@lists.xmission.com