From: owner-zorn-list-digest@lists.xmission.com (Zorn List Digest) To: zorn-list-digest@lists.xmission.com Subject: Zorn List Digest V3 #310 Reply-To: zorn-list Sender: owner-zorn-list-digest@lists.xmission.com Errors-To: owner-zorn-list-digest@lists.xmission.com Precedence: bulk Zorn List Digest Thursday, March 1 2001 Volume 03 : Number 310 In this issue: - Re: well-informed, open-minded people Re: Bonzo dog dooh da was: Odp: Odp: cant do 10 Re: well-informed, open-minded people Re: well-informed, open-minded people Re: Waits/Ribot "well-informed, open-minded people" Re[2]: Waits/Ribot Re: Re[2]: Waits/Ribot Re: "well-informed, open-minded people" Re: Bonzo dog Ibarra / MASADA history??? Re: "well-informed, open-minded people" Re: YMMV RE: Ibarra / MASADA history??? Re: "well-informed, open-minded people" Re: Re[2]: Waits/Ribot ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Date: Thu, 1 Mar 2001 16:29:25 -0500 (EST) From: Ken Waxman Subject: Re: well-informed, open-minded people William: Actually there are people whose music I dislike much more than Patton's and generally try to stay away from. I was just using him and playing off Mike C.'s original statement. And yes, I have seen Patton, a couple-three times at Victo and was more impressed with some of the musicians with whom he played than his work. I certainly listen to other music besides Mingus and also wouldn't dare to tell people to stay away from any music they love. That said, I wish fewer people like Patton and Thurston Moore were playing "experimental" festivals like FIMAV to open up space for those musicians some of us think are bringing more to the soundscape. But I'm not booking anything and if you prefer those guys to others, go for 'em. Ken Waxman - --- William York wrote:

>How 'bout it's more interesting than *any * music of
>Mike Patton?

>Top 10s change with the years, but let me note three
>sessions which have stood the test of time and deserve
>to be in *every* thinking music person's collection.
>Very simple:

>Charles Mingus Presents Charles Mingus (Candid)
>The Black Saint and the Sinner Lady - Charles Mingus (Impulse!)
>Mingus Ah Um -- Charles Mingus(Columbia)

how 'bout, i have all these Mingus albums, and I love them, and have listened to them over and over (more the first two then the third, and also Pithecanthropus .... and several others), AND I have a bunch of stuff Patton is on, and I love that too?? I certainly don't worship Patton, and the discussions of him here (or elsewhere) aren't generally all that interesting, but I should say that plenty of his music would at least qualify as "more interesting" than a lot of people's top ten lists. especially top ten lists that don't mention albums recorded in the last twenty years.

i don't see why "jazz" and "metal" or "rock" have to be mutually exclusive. then again, i doubt that the people making these dismissive statements have actually heard more than a few minutes (seconds??) of the music they are dismissing, so why even bother trying to reason with them??? arrggh. for that, i apologize, people. _______________________________________________________ Do You Yahoo!? Get your free @yahoo.ca address at http://mail.yahoo.ca - - ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 01 Mar 2001 16:37:47 -0500 From: Perfect Sound Forever Subject: Re: Bonzo dog dooh da was: Odp: Odp: cant do 10 Never thought I'd see a discussion on the Bonzos here but cheers! Their first one,Gorilla, is sublimely, insane fun with some bizarre covers of standards (Sound of Music, Cool Brittania, etc.). If you like the debut, you should get The Doughnuts in Grannys Greenhouse too. Best, Jason - -- Perfect Sound Forever online music magazine perfect-sound@furious.com http://www.furious.com/perfect - - ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 01 Mar 2001 13:37:53 -0800 From: "Patrice L. Roussel" Subject: Re: well-informed, open-minded people On Thu, 01 Mar 2001 16:24:55 -0500 Mike Chamberlain wrote: > > In my case, two hours of Mr. Patton fronting for the X-Ecutioners was quite > enough to put me off the man for a good long time, though I do quite like > his vocal on the "Hank McCain" piece on the "Gundown" reissue. I also found that concert quite annoying. Mike Patton gave me the impression of a rich kid playing with expansive toys he did not know what to do with. The X-Ecutioners were what made the show interesting, at least when being successful at ignoring Patton's vocal antics. Patrice (who loves Patton, but only in rock context). - - ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 01 Mar 2001 13:52:48 -0800 From: "Patrice L. Roussel" Subject: Re: well-informed, open-minded people On Thu, 1 Mar 2001 16:29:25 -0500 (EST) Ken Waxman wrote: > > That said, I wish fewer people like Patton and > Thurston Moore were playing "experimental" festivals > like FIMAV to open up space for those musicians some > of us think are bringing more to the soundscape. Same here... I am sure that Patton and Moore are genuine lovers of classical contemporary music and other on the fringe genres, but their attempts (Patton with classical contemporary, and Moore with improv) are, IMHO, quite disappointing. They proceed with a single-minded attitude which is miles away from the true innovators of the genres. It is as if they caught the spirit but failed to see the crafmanship and the vision. They remind me people who talk about savant things at the tea party level (usually missing what is really important). Not to mention their "transform-to-gold-anything-they-touch" status which is quite annoying. Maybe we should reassure them that they can still be decent human beings by only playing rock music :-). Patrice. - - ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 1 Mar 2001 19:06:00 EST From: BlackBook78@aol.com Subject: Re: Waits/Ribot - --part1_47.81b3139.27d03de8_boundary Content-Type: text/plain; charset="US-ASCII" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit In a message dated 03/01/2001 12:35:07 PM Pacific Standard Time, shkin@shkin.com writes: > The video > is not even just a concert, but a kind of performance. Find it and > enjoy! > > Good luck finding it. Its incredibly rare and though it's on Ebay quite frequently, it fetches up to 75 easily. Great video though, especially the performance where he his holding an umbrella set on fire. - --part1_47.81b3139.27d03de8_boundary Content-Type: text/html; charset="US-ASCII" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit In a message dated 03/01/2001 12:35:07 PM Pacific Standard Time,
shkin@shkin.com writes:


The video
is not even just a concert, but a kind of performance. Find it and
enjoy!



Good luck finding it.  Its incredibly rare and though it's on Ebay quite
frequently, it fetches up to 75 easily.  Great video though, especially the
performance where he his holding an umbrella set on fire. - --part1_47.81b3139.27d03de8_boundary-- - - ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 01 Mar 2001 19:15:26 EST From: Nudeants@aol.com Subject: "well-informed, open-minded people" I can't really speak for Thurston Moore's non-SY stuff, as I've only heard Goodbye 20th Century, but to dismiss Patton as a rich kid who doesn't know how to operate his equipment seems like sour grapes to me. A brief listen to his solo albums and to Fantomas should tell anyone that he at least knows how to use what he has. Also, to say that these 'rock/experimental' guys shouldn't be playing festivals, or that they should stick to what they know best, simply because you don't like their music, seems unbelievably snobbish. Just because a composer/musician chooses to work in one 'genre' does not automatically qualify him as more authentic or qualified than someone 'encroaching' from elsewhere. In fact, it just as often could smack of aesthetic tunnel-vision, unfortunately fairly common. I fall a bit short of Patton-worshiping myself, but I like his music a lot. I happen to think that his music has more instinctive intelligence and heart than about 50% of the music discussed on this list, actually. ('IMHO') Not-to-mention that their transform-everything-to-gold status is most likely foisted upon them by other people, as are the categories and genre names that those people use top describe their music. - -Matt Mitchell > > That said, I wish fewer people like Patton and > Thurston Moore were playing "experimental" festivals > like FIMAV to open up space for those musicians some > of us think are bringing more to the soundscape. >>Same here... I am sure that Patton and Moore are genuine lovers of classical contemporary music and other on the fringe genres, but their attempts (Patton with classical contemporary, and Moore with improv) are, IMHO, quite disappointing. They proceed with a single-minded attitude which is miles away from the true innovators of the genres. It is as if they caught the spirit but failed to see the crafmanship and the vision. They remind me people who talk about savant things at the tea party level (usually missing what is really important). Not to mention their "transform-to-gold-anything-they-touch" status which is quite annoying. Maybe we should reassure them that they can still be decent human beings by only playing rock music :-). Patrice. - - >> - - ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 1 Mar 2001 19:20:54 -0500 From: Peter Gannushkin Subject: Re[2]: Waits/Ribot Hello BlackBook78, Thursday, March 01, 2001, you wrote to me: >> The video is not even just a concert, but a kind of performance. >> Find it and enjoy! Bac> Good luck finding it. Its incredibly rare and though it's on Ebay quite Bac> frequently, it fetches up to 75 easily. I saw it on eBay once and was really surprised that it is so expensive. The thing is that I have it but... it is in PAL (European) standard, so there is no way to watch it here in New York. I hope to find it some day though, or I will just make a copy somewhere. Bac> Great video though, especially the performance where he his Bac> holding an umbrella set on fire. I cannot say which part I like the most. I think it is all absolutely genius work. - -- Best regards, Peter Gannushkin e-mail: shkin@shkin.com URL: http://www.downtownmusic.net/ - - ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 1 Mar 2001 19:40:20 EST From: BlackBook78@aol.com Subject: Re: Re[2]: Waits/Ribot - --part1_df.110e9ddd.27d045f4_boundary Content-Type: text/plain; charset="US-ASCII" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit In a message dated 03/01/2001 4:21:21 PM Pacific Standard Time, shkin@shkin.com writes: > I saw it on eBay once and was really surprised that it is so > expensive. The thing is that I have it but... it is in PAL (European) > standard, so there is no way to watch it here in New York. I hope to > find it some day though, or I will just make a copy somewhere. > > Luckily, I bought mine (near mint, I'm sure nobody in this small area even knows who Tom W. is) for five bucks from a video store that was closing down. Also found a decent copy of Koyaanisqatsi which is rare as well with a great soundtrack by Phillip Glass. I'd copy it for you if I had two VCR's, though I don't even watch it anymore. I suppose we could work out a trade if you really want it that bad. Mike - --part1_df.110e9ddd.27d045f4_boundary Content-Type: text/html; charset="US-ASCII" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit In a message dated 03/01/2001 4:21:21 PM Pacific Standard Time,
shkin@shkin.com writes:


I saw it on eBay once and was really surprised that it is so
expensive. The thing is that I have it but... it is in PAL (European)
standard, so there is no way to watch it here in New York. I hope to
find it some day though, or I will just make a copy somewhere.



Luckily, I bought mine (near mint, I'm sure nobody in this small area even
knows who Tom W. is) for five bucks from a video store that was closing down.
 Also found a decent copy of Koyaanisqatsi which is rare as well with a great
soundtrack by Phillip Glass.  I'd copy it for you if I had two VCR's, though
I don't even watch it anymore.  I suppose we could work out a trade if you
really want it that bad.

Mike - --part1_df.110e9ddd.27d045f4_boundary-- - - ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 01 Mar 2001 20:47:34 -0500 From: Mike Chamberlain Subject: Re: "well-informed, open-minded people" on 3/1/01 7:15 PM, Nudeants@aol.com at Nudeants@aol.com wrote: Whatever. You're missing the point of my original post, which was that I'd rather read top ten lists than some of the other stuff that comes up here. YMMV. - --Mike > I fall a bit short of Patton-worshiping myself, but I like his music a lot. I > happen to think that his music has more instinctive intelligence and heart > than about 50% of the music discussed on this list, actually. > > > ('IMHO') - -- - - ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 1 Mar 2001 18:16:58 -0800 From: "s~Z" Subject: Re: Bonzo dog In college we used to call townies in the middle of the night and play the Bonzo's macabre laugh track "Slush" for their listening enjoyment. Not a good track to listen to stoned. - - ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 01 Mar 2001 21:09:50 -0500 From: Rick Lopez Subject: Ibarra / MASADA history??? Had this request come in: > i read in the wire, a few months (years?) ago, [AUG 97 --RL] > that Susie Ibarra did play with the > Masada Quartet, replacing a suffering Joey Baron on one occasion. But i > just can find where and when that took place, and if that was recorded by > anyone. I'm not into trading-- i'm doing a web page about Masada and > tracking the different places where they played. Anyone have any skinny on this? thank you kind people, rl ---------- Sessionographies: CRISPELL; IBARRA; Wm. PARKER; RIVERS; SHIPP; D.S. WARE. Discographies: COURVOISIER; ENEIDI; MANERI,; MORRIS; SPEARMAN; WORKMAN. Also: --Samuel Beckett Eulogy--Baseball & the 10,000 Things--Time Stops --LOVETORN--HARD BOIL-- ETC., all at: http://www.velocity.net/~bb10k WHERE THE HELL HAVE I BEEN??? : http://www.velocity.net/~bb10k/LUCILLE/splash.html - - ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 01 Mar 2001 21:28:30 EST From: Nudeants@aol.com Subject: Re: "well-informed, open-minded people" I was mostly responding to some other issues that your original post managed to surface, that's all. What does YMMV mean? - -matt - --Whatever. You're missing the point of my original post, which was that I'd rather read top ten lists than some of the other stuff that comes up here. YMMV. - --Mike - - ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 01 Mar 2001 21:37:39 -0500 From: "Caleb T. Deupree" Subject: Re: YMMV At 09:28 PM 3/1/01 EST, Nudeants@aol.com wrote: > >What does YMMV mean? Your mileage may vary. - -- Caleb Deupree cdeupree@erinet.com How old would you be if you didn't know how old you were? - -- Satchel Paige - - ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 1 Mar 2001 21:44:19 -0500 From: "Steve Smith" Subject: RE: Ibarra / MASADA history??? It happened at the Knitting Factory. Vague recollection says it was sometime in late '96, or maybe even early '97 while I was working there, but I can't say for certain. I'll almost guarantee you that Bruce Gallanter would know, and would have been there taping (not that that will do traders any good, as his are off limits). Steve Smith ssmith36@sprynet.com who types taller than he looks, apparently... I rather like that, actually... ;-) - -----Original Message----- From: owner-zorn-list@lists.xmission.com [mailto:owner-zorn-list@lists.xmission.com]On Behalf Of Rick Lopez Sent: Thursday, March 01, 2001 9:10 PM To: JOHN the ZORN Subject: Ibarra / MASADA history??? Had this request come in: > i read in the wire, a few months (years?) ago, [AUG 97 --RL] > that Susie Ibarra did play with the > Masada Quartet, replacing a suffering Joey Baron on one occasion. But i > just can find where and when that took place, and if that was recorded by > anyone. I'm not into trading-- i'm doing a web page about Masada and > tracking the different places where they played. - - ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 01 Mar 2001 22:00:56 -0500 From: Mike Chamberlain Subject: Re: "well-informed, open-minded people" on 3/1/01 9:28 PM, Nudeants@aol.com at Nudeants@aol.com wrote: > I was mostly responding to some other issues that your original post managed > to surface, that's all. > > What does YMMV mean? > Your Mileage May Vary--or different strokes for different folks. I was mainly concerned with the fact that someone (sorry, can't remember who) complained about the top ten list thread. All I really wanted to say is that if people want to participate, then it should be up to them. FWIW, I like top ten lists, if only to get an idea of the musical tastes of others. I don't really take them too seriously. And for those who object, there is a delete button. It's been a few years since we had such a thread--I think that's a decent interval. As for the Mike Patton comment, he seemed a handy target, as there'd been a recent thread on him, and the only time I have seen him--or heard him, really--was one of the most egregious performances I've ever witnessed. But the broader issue is that I don't see much point in complaining about what's discussed here. This is a great list, the best I've been on over the past nine years or so. I learn more here than anywhere else, and if the discussion is sometimes less than interesting to me, well, it goes with the territory, and I see no reason to squawk when it is. Cheers, - --Mike - - ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 1 Mar 2001 22:28:39 EST From: Samerivertwice@aol.com Subject: Re: Re[2]: Waits/Ribot In a message dated 3/1/01 7:21:21 PM Eastern Standard Time, shkin@shkin.com writes: > I saw it on eBay once and was really surprised that it is so > expensive. The thing is that I have it but... it is in PAL (European) > standard, so there is no way to watch it here in New York. I hope to > find it some day though, or I will just make a copy somewhere. > > Bac> Great video though, especially the performance where he his > Bac> holding an umbrella set on fire. > > I cannot say which part I like the most. I think it is all absolutely > genius work. > > -- > Best regards, > Peter Gannushkin Last year Bravo aired it a few times. Maybe they'll do it again this year? Set your VCRs. My favorite part is "Train Song" and its Civil War soldier impregnation lead-in. Tom ________________________________________________ The dignity of art appears to the greatest advantage perhaps in music, because that art contains no material to be deducted. It is wholly form and intrinsic value, and it elevates and ennobles everything which it expresses. --Johann Wolfgang Von Goethe - - ------------------------------ End of Zorn List Digest V3 #310 ******************************* To unsubscribe from zorn-list-digest, send an email to "majordomo@lists.xmission.com" with "unsubscribe zorn-list-digest" in the body of the message. For information on digests or retrieving files and old messages send "help" to the same address. Do not use quotes in your message. A non-digest (direct mail) version of this list is also available; to subscribe to that instead, replace all instances of "zorn-list-digest" in the commands above with "zorn-list". Back issues are available for anonymous FTP from ftp.xmission.com, in pub/lists/zorn-list/archive. These are organized by date. 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