From: owner-zorn-list-digest@lists.xmission.com (Zorn List Digest) To: zorn-list-digest@lists.xmission.com Subject: Zorn List Digest V3 #347 Reply-To: zorn-list Sender: owner-zorn-list-digest@lists.xmission.com Errors-To: owner-zorn-list-digest@lists.xmission.com Precedence: bulk Zorn List Digest Wednesday, March 21 2001 Volume 03 : Number 347 In this issue: - bellmer (was: pedophilia) Re: Zorn + Children. Re: bellmer (was: pedophilia) Re: New Sachiko/Toshimaru Cd (No Zorn content) Re: Opprobrium/Phlegm Re: zorn + pedophilia Bellmer Bellmer (again) PiL (again) Re: patRice & S/M (was: zorn + pedophilia) Material & Papa M cardiacs/ghost Re: Material Re: PiL (again) Re: zorn + pedophilia ordinary fanfares playlist #2 ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Date: Wed, 21 Mar 2001 08:34:48 -0800 (PST) From: Scott Handley Subject: bellmer (was: pedophilia) - --- Orangejazz@aol.com wrote: > recently published book on Hans Bellmer, and I think What's the publication info on this? As recently as six or eight months ago, it seemed that there was next to nothing in-print by or on Bellmer, at least in U.S. market. I'd love to find a relatively comprehensive book of his work, esp. the drawings. - ---s ===== "Electric guitar gets run over by a car on the highway/This is a crime against the state/This is the meaning of life... Electric guitar is copied, the copy sounds better/Call this law and justice, call this freedom and liberty/I thought I perjure myself, right in front of the jury!" ---Talking Heads, "Electric Guitar" __________________________________________________ Do You Yahoo!? Get email at your own domain with Yahoo! Mail. http://personal.mail.yahoo.com/ - - ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 21 Mar 2001 11:41:09 EST From: Orangejazz@aol.com Subject: Re: Zorn + Children. I like a considerable amount of the artwork on these Zorn albums as well, probably the main reason I sought out the book on Bellmer (which I'd been anticipating for some time now) in the first place. Now, I've read Bataille and I think I understand some of his fundamental concepts about sex + death, and I also understand that child pornography exists, I'm not happy about it, but I'm "bearing witness". Hell, there was even a Newsweek article about it two weeks ago. I still don't feel the need to look at it, should I? Are people like Zorn and Bataille saying I should see these things? Are Bataille, Zorn, and Bellmer looking at sex with children as an extension of S&M? The discourse on that was a little unclear, probably due to my only having read Sade, not Deluze or Masoch. S&M really doesn't seem all that taboo to me, being that it involves two adults that can procure pleasure from either side of the spectrum. (so knock yourselves out, kids.). Yet there is still a power relationship set up in "child sexuality", the adult in almost all scenarios, is exploting the kid. What Bellmer's pieces and maybe a story like "Lolita" do, through a kind of artistic breathing room (a space away from real life), is perhaps allow a reading that the kid is capable of the dominating place. In a lot of ways, in Bellmer's life, anyway, the child was dominating. The compulsive obssesion with children probably plauged him a fair amount. Perhaps that is where the resultant imagery has come from. The idea as art being created as the result of torture, etc.. So from there, I don't really understand how it plays into Zorn's work. There are probably a couple of people on this list familiar with his whole oevure, and besides pictures and titles, how do these ideas become integrated into the piece? What the hell is really going on in "Music for Children"? We see an integration of dissonance, but beyond that? I never said Zorn was a pedophile, I tried to be specifically clear about that. I was just trying to point out where his work related to that territory. If Zorn were putting these images and ideas into his work just so people would discuss it, why has it always ended up in some morality battle on this list? Inevitably, to discuss those images and ideas involves the discussion of his work, and you'd think he'd give the listener more to go on if he wanted that. But, let's say he wants every listener to get some personal and unique out of the work, doesn't that negate the debating? I don't know. This was probably another muddle of unformulated ideas, so, sorry. from, matt - - ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 21 Mar 2001 09:13:52 -0800 From: Tosh Subject: Re: bellmer (was: pedophilia) on 3/21/01 8:34 AM, Scott Handley at thesubtlebody@yahoo.com wrote: > --- Orangejazz@aol.com wrote: >> recently published book on Hans Bellmer, and I think > > What's the publication info on this? As recently as > six or eight months ago, it seemed that there was next > to nothing in-print by or on Bellmer, at least in U.S. > market. I'd love to find a relatively comprehensive > book of his work, esp. the drawings. > > ---s At least two new books came out on Bellmer. I believe MIT put it one of them out. I would check amazon.com - -- Tosh Berman TamTam Books http://www.tamtambooks.com > > - - ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 21 Mar 2001 17:43:43 -0000 From: "Alastair Wilson" Subject: Re: New Sachiko/Toshimaru Cd (No Zorn content) ><< Just listened to "Do" and enjoyed it immensely, but a warning to all you >house-proud listeners out there: even though I wasn't listening at a >particularly loud volume, the bass frequencies had my light fittings >vibrating - and making complimentary sounds - during parts of the first >track. Actually, apart from the possible damage caused it was really rather >nice... >> I've relistened to the CD just to check if it was a fluke. From about 27 minutes into track one for four minutes my light fitting - attached to the ceiling, and incidentally completely out of the speakers' line of fire - becomes a third instrument. The bulb itself is still intact, you'll be pleased to know. If this was an Eno disc I think I could charge admission to the "installation". Just about to dig out my Fennesz and Fenn O'Berg CDs on Mego to check out Jon's suggestion. _________________________________________________________________________ Get Your Private, Free E-mail from MSN Hotmail at http://www.hotmail.com. - - ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 21 Mar 2001 18:31:06 From: "William York" Subject: Re: Opprobrium/Phlegm

>BTW, I have totally been into Ambarchi's solo prepared guitar and electronics record on >Touch, INSULATION. How do the Stacte LPs compare?  I think anyone who enjoys >fertile drone and/or "microsound" excursions would eat up the textural INSULATION.  Any >opinions on Ambarchi's other work, esp. that one on Tzadik?  The label blurb was mildly >off-putting.

well, it's always good to not put too much stock in those label blurbs ...

it has been a year and a half since i heard it, but i liked it pretty well. i remember thinking captain beefheart, boredoms, marc ribot's shrek were kind of vague reference points (yeah, that's not very helpful, i know). some of it was 'skronky' guitar stuff, there was a long, almost ambient drone and another track that did something altering a rabbi's voice, looping it or something to that effect. kind of all over the place, but not like naked city at all. i get the impression that this was kind of a transition point between the phlegm albums and his later guitar improv work, but since i haven't heard that stuff, i can't really say for sure!!

on another note, this new Tim Berne cd on thirsty ear w/ craig taborn and tom rainey is one of the best things i've heard in a long time. great production, too.

wy


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- - ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 21 Mar 2001 19:37:17 -0000 From: "Arthur Gadney" Subject: Re: zorn + pedophilia >Zorn apparently has a CD forthcoming which is dedicated in part to Georges >Bataille, an important philosopher on all of these issues Do you know anything else about this CD? Sound interesting so far. _________________________________________________________________ Get your FREE download of MSN Explorer at http://explorer.msn.com - - ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 21 Mar 2001 21:51:10 +0100 From: patRice Subject: Bellmer Hi y'all... I did search for Bellmer on Amazon. Two books still available. Unfortunately: no reviews. Can anyone from the list maybe help out? BTW: If anyone is looking for other titles by Bellmer (or anyone else) I can highly recommend Bookfinder.com - if you didn't know this page already. I've found some fantastic stuff through that site. patRice np: The Melvins - The Maggot nr: John Stevens - Sacred Calligraphy of the East - - ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 21 Mar 2001 21:54:48 +0100 From: patRice Subject: Bellmer (again) Also just did a search on Amazon Germany - they've got two titles; each going for over 3.000 Deutsch Mark!!! Here's the URL if you're interested: Amazon.de ;-) patRice - - ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 21 Mar 2001 22:01:34 +0100 From: patRice Subject: PiL (again) I know some days have passed since there was talk about PiL. Now I'm wondering if anyone can give a comment on the following two releases: Live In Tokyo Roots Reagge From Jamaica (is this even the same band?) patRice - - ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 21 Mar 2001 17:10:15 -0500 From: Rick Lopez Subject: Re: patRice & S/M (was: zorn + pedophilia) on 3/21/01 10:51 AM, patRice at postmanpat@adon.li mewled endlessly: > > > Mike Chamberlain wrote: > >>> >>> LOL... But you'll have to try a little HARDER... ;-) >>> >>> patRice >> >> I wonder if that Korean lotion will do the trick? >> >> --Mike > > Not too sure... > > Maybe Cat'o'Nine-Tails??? > > patRice > > P.S.: Sorry to those of you who find our little exchange silly... au contraire, it's making me wet... rrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrr ---------- Sessionographies: ~~~ CRISPELL; IBARRA; Wm. PARKER; RIVERS; SHIPP; D.S. WARE. Discographies: ~~~ COURVOISIER; ENEIDI; MANERI,; MORRIS; SPEARMAN; THREADGILL; WORKMAN. Also: --Samuel Beckett Eulogy--Baseball & the 10,000 Things --Time Stops--LOVETORN--HARD BOIL--The Interview--ETC. all at: http://www.velocity.net/~bb10k WHERE THE HELL HAVE I BEEN??? : http://www.velocity.net/~bb10k/LUCILLE/splash.html - - ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 21 Mar 2001 22:20:50 -0000 From: "Arthur Gadney" Subject: Material & Papa M Hello. I'm recently becomming interested in "Live from Soundscape" by Material. Would any body care to drop some comments? Fred Frith, Laswell and 3 drummers seems like a mighty good time to me. I take this is totally different from, say, "Hallucination Engine", but is it totally improvised freakout, or is there some compositions? And I understand that it is a live reecording (naturally), how is the soundquality? I dislike poorly recorded improvisation records. Totally unrelated: "Papa M Sings", is it as great as the earlier stuff? Is it in fact a singing record? _________________________________________________________________ Get your FREE download of MSN Explorer at http://explorer.msn.com - - ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 21 Mar 2001 17:28:14 EST From: ObviousEye@aol.com Subject: cardiacs/ghost - --part1_83.87cd428.27ea84fe_boundary Content-Type: text/plain; charset="US-ASCII" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit if i were to buy a Cardiacs record today, what should it be? as an introduction to the group... and: has anyone heard of "Ghost"? ...some sort of psychedelic band. thanks for input/info. ben o neb - --part1_83.87cd428.27ea84fe_boundary Content-Type: text/html; charset="US-ASCII" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit if i were to buy a Cardiacs record today, what should it be? as an
introduction to the group...

and: has anyone heard of "Ghost"?  ...some sort of psychedelic band.

thanks for input/info.

ben o neb - --part1_83.87cd428.27ea84fe_boundary-- - - ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 21 Mar 2001 19:23:01 -0500 From: "Caleb T. Deupree" Subject: Re: Material At 10:20 PM 3/21/01 -0000, Arthur Gadney wrote: > >I'm recently becomming interested in "Live from Soundscape" by Material. >Would any body care to drop some comments? Fred Frith, Laswell and 3 >drummers seems like a mighty good time to me. I take this is totally >different from, say, "Hallucination Engine", but is it totally improvised >freakout, or is there some compositions? And I understand that it is a live >reecording (naturally), how is the soundquality? I dislike poorly recorded >improvisation records. Without getting out to listen again, my recollection is totally improvised, completely unlike any other Material record, pretty noisy (which is expected, given the number of percussionists), but that the sound quality is ok. According to the notes, it is a complete, unedited performance. - -- Caleb Deupree cdeupree@erinet.com - - ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 22 Mar 2001 02:47:43 -0000 From: "thomas chatterton" Subject: Re: PiL (again) >From: patRice >Now I'm wondering if anyone can give a comment on the following two >releases: > >Live In Tokyo > It's been a few years since I heard it, but I was disappointed by it, it was really generic sounding, with a bunch of pickup musicians(not even sure if Levene was still there, probably didn't matter since he was so junked out by then), trying to capitalise on their current 'big hit', This Is Not A Love Song... >Roots Reagge From Jamaica (is this even the same band?) > Don't think this is a PiL album, Lydon went to Jamaica a few times to feed his love for roots dub, and I think he had a hand in getting some reggae albums released in the U.K. Best PiL albums are: Metal Box(aka Second Edition), 1st (Public Image Limited), Flowers Of Romance (though not everyone agrees!), Album (or Compact Disc). Someone else asked about Ghost, they are a trippy fairly mellow Japanese psych band, kind of like Amon Duul...I have their Lama Rabi Rabi album, which I quite like... np:Acid Mothers Temple: Absolutely Freak Out _________________________________________________________________________ Get Your Private, Free E-mail from MSN Hotmail at http://www.hotmail.com. - - ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 21 Mar 2001 22:37:47 -0500 From: Matt Laferty Subject: Re: zorn + pedophilia Along the lines of good, intelligent, non-hysterical discussions of pedophilia, Semiotext(e) put out a "pamphlet" in 1980 called "Intervention Series 2: Loving Children" with Kate Millet, Michel Foucault, Sylvere Lotringer, Mark Blasius, and others. From Lotringer's editorial: "Our society doesn't hesitate to encourage and exploit sexuality in all its forms--all the more reason to cordon off children in a fantasy world, a hyperrreal world of helplessness and innocence which we need to maintain at any cost to reassure us about ourselves. What children's needs and desires really are, we give little attention to. We know better. We will defend them against themselves, and if need be with the full force of the law. We need to maintain children in a position of dependence which is not altogether "natural" since it has no equivalent in many other cultures. We need to preserve in our midst a sacred territory inhabited by good little savages, a private colony unheeded by the ebb and flow of history, and the frightening abyss of capitalist decadence--in which we are being engulfed, for better or for worse. You can't reson with the issue of man/boy love. We have, it seems, touched here one of the thresholds of our culture, one of these areas, possilby the very last, where our society has stored away whatever is left (not much) of its old values. These fantasies are our last refuge. If they were to fail us, we wouldn't know anymore where, and for whom, to ground a morality which has become all the more fragile now that capital itself has eaten up all its traditional foundations." Bill Ashline wrote: > >From: Orangejazz@aol.com > >Subject: zorn + pedophilia > > >I'm not taking a political side here regarding right or wrong, I just find > >it > >a little simple to say Zorn's use of Bellmer's photos is simply there for > >"Shock Value". > > Zorn apparently has a CD forthcoming which is dedicated in part to Georges > Bataille, an important philosopher on all of these issues. His book > "Eroticism: Death and Sensuality" is the pivot point and it renders most of > the questions of "shock value" pretty moot. > > > > >I really don't know. Which is the last thing any reader wants to see after > >reading several paragraphs. I am certainly not accusing Zorn of being a > >pedophile, I'm just pointing out a coincidence. > > Common sense has created a climate in which the sexuality of children is > suppressed and any attempt to document such sexuality is always going to be > aligned with child pornography. For someone like Bataille, this kind of > common sense and the events that led to its production (real exploitation > and egregious pornography) is itself "profane." It's a knee-jerk reaction > that can never bear witness to another possibility in human experience, an > intermediate value between promiscuity/exploitation and puritanical reserve. > It's child sexuality that would be "sacred" in this equation, since it > admits a space beyond the limit of acceptability. Zorn of course is > interested in all this, just as he's interested in Japanese S & M (common > sense also dictates that these two terms always be put together even though > the codes of such sexuality in Sade and Masoch are of an altogether > different sort. The "S" part in Japanese S & M, from what I've seen > documented, is far more ritualized and acted out, thereby making it closer > to Masoch's work than Sade's--See Gilles Deleuze's "Coldness and Cruelty" > for more on this topic). The problem with Zorn though in all of this is > when he puts it all on display in order to sell CDs. The concepts are > interesting; it's the commodification that makes it all seem possibly > self-serving for Mr. Z. This is perhaps why he's now gone to the black box > and is concealing these images within the jewel cases--Victorian Secrets? > > >It's just that with all of > >the talk about S&M, the unsettling photos, the few and poorly executed > >interviews, we are left with a very mysterious, yet vast body of work. > > No pun intended, right? > _________________________________________________________________________ > Get Your Private, Free E-mail from MSN Hotmail at http://www.hotmail.com. > > - - - ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 21 Mar 2001 21:58:08 -0800 (PST) From: Grey ElkGel Subject: ordinary fanfares playlist #2 ordinary fanfares playlist #2 - march 20, 2001 wmfo 91.5fm, medford massachussetts // www.wmfo.org 1. the beach boys: the night was so young [love you CD - - capitol] 2. david behrman: runthrough [wave train CD - alga marghen] 3. vashti bunyan: diamond day [just another diamond day CD - spinney] 4. coyle & sharpe: three-ism [audio visionaries CD - thirsty ear] 5. the bill dixon orchestra: metamorphosis 1962-1966 [intents and purposes LP - rca victor] 6. kevin drumm: organ [comedy CD - moikai] 7. john frusciante: the first season [to record only water for ten days CD - warner bros.] 8. brion gysin: b [the pool k iii CD - alga marghen] 9. franz hautzinger: w.m. [gomberg CD - grob] 10. mauricio kagel: hallelujah [hallelujah LP - deutsche grammophon] 11. philus: koentsyymi/tutkat [tetra CD - sahko] 12. don rickles: some good friends [speaks LP - warner bros.] __________________________________________________ Do You Yahoo!? Get email at your own domain with Yahoo! Mail. http://personal.mail.yahoo.com/ - - ------------------------------ End of Zorn List Digest V3 #347 ******************************* To unsubscribe from zorn-list-digest, send an email to "majordomo@lists.xmission.com" with "unsubscribe zorn-list-digest" in the body of the message. For information on digests or retrieving files and old messages send "help" to the same address. Do not use quotes in your message. A non-digest (direct mail) version of this list is also available; to subscribe to that instead, replace all instances of "zorn-list-digest" in the commands above with "zorn-list". Back issues are available for anonymous FTP from ftp.xmission.com, in pub/lists/zorn-list/archive. These are organized by date. Problems? Email the list owner at zorn-list-owner@lists.xmission.com