From: owner-zorn-list-digest@lists.xmission.com (Zorn List Digest) To: zorn-list-digest@lists.xmission.com Subject: Zorn List Digest V3 #365 Reply-To: zorn-list Sender: owner-zorn-list-digest@lists.xmission.com Errors-To: owner-zorn-list-digest@lists.xmission.com Precedence: bulk Zorn List Digest Tuesday, April 3 2001 Volume 03 : Number 365 In this issue: - Catalogue Number for "The Gift" Fennesz and St. Germwarfare Re: Catalogue Number for "The Gift" V/VM Re: No wave Re: More Knit unravelling? Re: More Knit unravelling? Re: More Knit unravelling? Re: lightning bolt RE: More Knit unravelling? Sorry, wrong message RE: lightning bolt RE: lightning bolt Re: lightning bolt Re: More Knit unravelling? ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Date: Tue, 3 Apr 2001 20:04:42 +0930 From: "sinkas" Subject: Catalogue Number for "The Gift" Hi all can someone tell me the cat number for this disc, as I want to = "Indent order it", and its not on the books, Case "Alma Matters" - - ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 3 Apr 2001 13:05:17 +0200 From: solutions@archigraph.at Subject: Fennesz and St. Germwarfare > has anyone else noticed the similarity in the cover > design between _hotel paral.lel_ and the latest by > aforementioned band? Affirmative -- I even mentioned it to the guys at Mego, and they kind of shrugged and said, "Yeah, [graphic artist] Tina [Frank]'s work gets ripped off all over the place, so what else is new." - - ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 03 Apr 2001 13:19:44 +0200 From: Jeroen de Boer Subject: Re: Catalogue Number for "The Gift" > Hi all can someone tell me the cat number for this disc, as I want to "Indent > order it", and its not on the books, > > > Case > "Alma Matters" > > > - > > Hi, Just bought it: catalognumber TZ 7332 - --------------------------------------------------------------------------- Jeroen de Boer content director Cyberslag Content Providing Damsterdiep 15 9711SG Groningen The Netherlands t +31(0)503115496 m +31 (0)624814506 f +31(0)503632209 jeroen@cyberslag.com www.cyberslag.com - ---------------------------------------------------------------------------- - - ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 3 Apr 2001 12:06:43 +0100 From: "Richard Gardner" Subject: V/VM I think I may regret this but following Andy Marks link to Bentcrayon I came across a downloadable live mp3 of V/VM. I see that they have released lots on singles but I have no idea what are they are like. They may have no relevance on the ZornList at all but with links to the Aphex Twin among others there must be something going on. If anyone can enlighten me, many thanx. Richard Gardner - - ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 03 Apr 2001 15:33:30 +0200 From: "Andreas Dietz" Subject: Re: No wave >From: Dgasque@aol.com > >Don't think one of my favorites was mentioned- James White & The Blacks/The >Contortions. 15 years ago, I used to have people calling up the radio >station and begging me not to play any more of their music. Did I listen? >;-) I´ve seen the Contortions with Luther Thomas 4 years ago at the Moers festival and it was fantastic. I hadn´t heard of Mr. White/Black for many years before - same with Luther Thomas who had another interesting No Wave band at the beginning of the eighties: DIZZAZZ. At the time he was brought in a red coffin on stage... Another Nowaver was/is? Rhys Chatham. He has done a performance with 100(!) electric guitarists and 5 subconductors which he conducted in Berlin. Andreas np: J.A.DEANE - These Times (zerx) _________________________________________________________________________ Get Your Private, Free E-mail from MSN Hotmail at http://www.hotmail.com. - - ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 3 Apr 2001 09:47:12 EDT From: DvdBelkin@aol.com Subject: Re: More Knit unravelling? In a message dated 4/3/01 1:14:29 AM Eastern Daylight Time, bashline@hotmail.com writes: > It needs new ownership: perhaps a coalition of > musicians with a bit of NEA financing or some such > network. It's enough of an institution now to merit > something less private sector. Interesting idea, but maybe a little dicey, because of the accountability issues it could raise. Given the recent notorious episodes of conservative outrage over the way public arts monies have been spent, the mind boggles at how some Congessional committee or Mayoral commission might react to the concept of Your Tax Dollars funding some of the skronkier acts at the Knit! Then, too, even if the balance of control over public allocations is tipped towards the artists, you've got other dangers to watch out for, like maybe a downtown version of the Jazz at Lincoln Center situation emerging - a czar or politboro imposing his/its own ideological definition of what is a "What Is Jazz?" artist. Actually, as documented in Kevin Whitehead's book (New Dutch Swing), such matters did become controversial in the Netherlands when public funds started flowing to avant garde venues and institutions in the '70s, and the musicians themselves were deciding who was and wasn't avant garde. None of this is to say that having some club owner (corporately sponsored or not) decide is inherently better, or that there aren't plenty of examples of institutions successfully showcasing "our" music with public support. (I'm guessing that the Canadian fests might fall into this category.) But having seen a bit from the government side how down and dirty the competition gets when cultural institutions substantially depend on public support, I thought a little beware-of-what-you-wish-for might be in order here. Still, in a just world I'd love to see a chunk of the change going to JALC diverted to the Knit! David np: Philippe Micol, New York Interviews --> Rene Lussier & NOW Orchestra, Le tour de bloc - - ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 03 Apr 2001 14:18:29 -0000 From: "Bill Ashline" Subject: Re: More Knit unravelling? >From: DvdBelkin@aol.com >Then, too, even if the balance of control over public allocations is tipped >towards the artists, you've got other dangers to watch out for, like maybe >a >downtown version of the Jazz at Lincoln Center situation emerging - a czar >or >politboro imposing his/its own ideological definition of what is a "What Is >Jazz?" artist. Absolutely. This will always be a risk with any non-corporate alternative--it's the same thing that's been happening at Pacifica of late. A committee of overseers unbeholden to the contributors to the network or the employees. Not good. At least Dorf has to make some concessions because of his pocketbook, empty though it may be. For myself (and of course this is all useless speculation since the Knit is not for sale), I'd vote for a coalition of musicians to buy the place, with some additional sponsorship from the Zorn list if possible. Then, I'd hire Steve Smith to manage the place. >Given the recent notorious episodes of conservative >outrage over the way public arts monies have been spent, the mind boggles >at >how some Congessional committee or Mayoral commission might react to the >concept of Your Tax Dollars funding some of the skronkier acts at the Knit! Yep. In times of fair weather, find a good scapegoat in the arts to send off into the woods with the sins of the polis inscribed in its hide. Meanwhile, what happens with the appropriation of most tax money is far more obscene. >But having >seen a bit from the government side how down and dirty the competition gets >when cultural institutions substantially depend on public support, I >thought >a little beware-of-what-you-wish-for might be in order here. Or like a bunch of academics fighting like a pack of hyenas over a regents' appropriation. Which brings us to the old saw about why academic politics is so vicious. Because there's nothing at stake. You're completely right in your caution. I'm simply worried that NY's favorite megalomaniac is going run his (and everyone else's) club into the ground. At some point community interest has to trump bad management. _________________________________________________________________________ Get Your Private, Free E-mail from MSN Hotmail at http://www.hotmail.com. - - ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 3 Apr 2001 10:25:16 EDT From: JonAbbey2@aol.com Subject: Re: More Knit unravelling? In a message dated 4/3/01 10:19:24 AM, bashline@hotmail.com writes: << NY's favorite megalomaniac >> actually, I think this would be Giuliani. Jon www.erstwhilerecords.com - - ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 3 Apr 2001 07:44:59 -0700 (PDT) From: Grey ElkGel Subject: Re: lightning bolt - - lighning bolt as metal or no-wave or ruins have they themselves ever claimed to be a metal band? seems unlikely that they would have, at least without being a little bit tongue-in-cheek. as per no-wave, i'm sure they've heard it, and there are some surface similarities (they're noisy), but in general they're pretty much just a rock band; the drums play in time (the beat isn't being deconstructed at all), the bass plays riffs, etc. as far as the ruins, the instrumentation is the same and there are the technical fireworks, but lightning bolt doesn't have many of the prog-rockisms that make the ruins what they are. but sure... there are similarities w/ all of these things. > BUT, as long as that music is being embraced > by "hipsters" or played on college radio stations, > you can be almost fully assured that it isn't > really "metal" because that is still too big of a > culture gap ... They might like to call it metal, > but the whole aesthetics are different. i try to avoid blaming bands for the people who listen to them. i agree that there is a current wave of "metal for people who don't like metal", but i don't believe that the music is defined by the listener, so if it's "real" metal, it's "real" metal whether or not the listener is a sarcastic wanker or an actual "headbanger". > the way they (or their audiences/record labels) > sometimes patronize themselves by referring > to it as metal again, i wouldn't count lightning bolt among them. > when they wouldn't actually go to a dingy metal club > and watch musically more advanced/interesting (and > yet societally more "low-class"/less arty) bands > such as Gorguts or Soilent Green or Nile is > kind of lame. well, i'm going to see lightning bolt on thursday, electric wizard and warhorse on sunday, then the metal fest w/ gorguts, meshuggah, etc. the following week, and i *certainly* won't feel more authentic by going to one or the other of these shows. > Besides, sometimes I like the wanky guitar solos - > the more ridiculous, the better! i agree there. .greg. __________________________________________________ Do You Yahoo!? Get email at your own domain with Yahoo! Mail. http://personal.mail.yahoo.com/ - - ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 3 Apr 2001 10:56:33 -0400 From: "Steve Smith" Subject: RE: More Knit unravelling? Wooo! You think *Dorf* has trouble with managing money... ;-) I'd most likely sink the ship with the best of intentions. I can't even balance my checkbook. Now, booking such a club would be a different story. But there, too, the model in place at the Knit has always worked. It's responsible for the diversity of bookings, to be sure. One thing that most people don't know is that Dorf these days is responsible for little of the actual booking of the club. Sure, he has a supervisory role (and ultimately signs the checks, for what that's worth), but he's not really all that engaged in day-to-day activities of that nature - he's out chasing investors and following pipedreams and formulating strategic partnerships. His biggest dream is to find a way to make online presentation a marketable and remunerable commodity. I can't speak for the old Knit, but in my own experience the actual booking has generally been done by low-lying scrubs. When I was there, the guy booking the club was a younger rock-oriented guy who was willing and eager to learn jazz and other musics. (He's also the drummer for the bands Oneida and Mishagas.) In effect, what evolved was a loose process of booking by committee; it was 80% his doing, but he had lots of input from the rest of the team. This is how I was able to get him to book the duo of Han Bennink and Ellery Eskelin for the first time ever. If there's one thing of which I'm proudest in my entire tenure, it was that. (Still, I can't take sole credit - it was based on a passing suggestion from John Corbett.) Dorf's input to booking was usually the bigger acts, and often the ones that might seem least involved in the aesthetic we generally assocaite with the Knit. His favorite act in the '97 festival, for instance, was the Zawinul Syndicate, and he was single-handedly responsible for bringing in the likes of Lou Reed and Richie Havens. (Spiritually, for those who don't know, Dorf fancies himself a hippie entrepreneur, along the lines of Steve Jobs or Ben and Jerry.) Certain savvy indie promoters brought still other acts to the table, including the much-vaunted Silver Apples reunion, while record labels would often try to cash in on the club's grungy chic by pushing in such unlikely souls as the Emmanuel Ax/Pablo Ziegler 'Los Tangueros' duo project. (That show would have done better elsewhere, but boy did Manny get off on "slumming"...) The reason it all worked, and continues to work, is that Dorf may have final say in theory, but in practice he's been willing to hire bookers and let them work largely unhindered. These bookers, as well as the rest of the staff's contributions, have kept the club's ear closer to street level, assuring that there's a constant flow of music that Dorf himself had no knowledge of. Hell, none of us working there could even claim familiarity with ALL of the music we presented. I still think the Knit is better off uner single ownership, and preferably a sort of daring hands-off owner, for the reasons that have been mentioned. A coalition of artists will most likely end up engaged in the kind of internecine squabbling that David refers to in the Dutch example. And a small cabal of experts will indeed result in the kind of three-faced but single-voiced oligarchy in place at J@LC (the trilateral commission of Wynton, Crouch and Albert Murray, who all think with Murray's brain alone). Besides, ideally artists should be left free to pursue their art, without being beholden to the ownership of a business and the perils attached to that. The Tonic booking policy with its guest curators is a fine model that has resulted in some inspired bookings, but in general I'd prefer to keep the process in the hands of others with a broader overview of the entire scene, not just a niche. Hopefully that doesn't sound too rash... Steve Smith ssmith36@sprynet.com - - ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 3 Apr 2001 17:27:05 +0200 (CEST) From: =?iso-8859-1?q?efr=E9n=20del=20valle?= Subject: Sorry, wrong message Sorry everyone. I sent an e-mail entitled "Garrison: ALS en directo". It was for a Spanish-speaking jazz-list and sent it here by mistake. Regards, efrén _______________________________________________________________ Do You Yahoo!? Envía mensajes instantáneos y recibe alertas de correo con Yahoo! Messenger - http://messenger.yahoo.es - - ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 3 Apr 2001 11:35:05 -0400 From: "Steve Smith" Subject: RE: lightning bolt HOLY SHIT!!! Where's this happening? It's not the metal fest in Asbury Park, is it? Steve Smith ssmith36@sprynet.com (who's been waiting years to hear Meshuggah, and has now added Gorguts to the wish list thanks to William York...) - -----Original Message----- From: owner-zorn-list@lists.xmission.com [mailto:owner-zorn-list@lists.xmission.com]On Behalf Of Grey ElkGel Sent: Tuesday, April 03, 2001 10:45 AM then the metal fest w/ gorguts, meshuggah, etc. the following week - - ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 3 Apr 2001 08:57:49 -0700 (PDT) From: Grey ElkGel Subject: RE: lightning bolt > HOLY SHIT!!! Where's this happening? It's not the > metal fest in Asbury Park, is it? it's at the mass metal and hardcore fest, april 13th and 14th at the palladium in worcester, ma. both meshuggah [apparently their only u.s. appearance for this trip] and gorguts are playing on the 14th. > Steve Smith > ssmith36@sprynet.com > (who's been waiting years to hear Meshuggah, and has > now added Gorguts to > the wish list thanks to William York...) > > -----Original Message----- > From: owner-zorn-list@lists.xmission.com > [mailto:owner-zorn-list@lists.xmission.com]On Behalf > Of Grey ElkGel > Sent: Tuesday, April 03, 2001 10:45 AM > > then the metal > fest w/ gorguts, meshuggah, etc. the following week > __________________________________________________ Do You Yahoo!? Get email at your own domain with Yahoo! Mail. http://personal.mail.yahoo.com/ - - ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 3 Apr 2001 08:39:27 -0700 From: big ums Subject: Re: lightning bolt Scott Handley writes: > Not to fetishize some questionably-existant movement, > but who are these new no-wave bands? I would venture that a lot of the Skin-Graft, Bulb, & Load titles would be considered "No Wave" or "Now Wave." Artists like US Maple, Temple Of Bon Matin (even though they say they are "metal"), Thee Hydrogen Terrors, Mr Quintron, Arab On Radar, Melt Banana, Lightning Bolt, !!!, John Van Ryan, Gerty Farish, Men's Recovery Project, Medicine Ball, or Mother Jefferson... I could go on and on. Stylistically, they are very different, some taking on a funky groove, and others mining whatever's left from the "rock" vein, but all have a common thread linking them together. Could be the unrehearsed, loose feel. I try not to over analyze. The magic would be lost. There are possibly hundreds of other bands that could, and would, be lumped into this category, but I'm not going to be the lumper today. ChuckP. ________________________________________________________________ GET INTERNET ACCESS FROM JUNO! Juno offers FREE or PREMIUM Internet access for less! Join Juno today! For your FREE software, visit: http://dl.www.juno.com/get/tagj. - - ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 03 Apr 2001 09:56:32 -0700 From: "Patrice L. Roussel" Subject: Re: More Knit unravelling? On Tue, 3 Apr 2001 10:56:33 -0400 "Steve Smith" wrote: > > Besides, ideally artists should be left free to pursue their art, without ^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^ And they are. The problem starts when you want your art to touch more than your mother, girl/boyfriend, and close friends. We live in a free country where anybody can do what they want in their bedroom or basement. It was never written that claiming to be an artist would automatically create instant fame or wealth. Internet might be close to perfection from this point of view since in the near future we can imagine every artist with his own web site with MP3 and other material available there. The downside of that might also be total irrelevance since the pure volume of information will almost defeat the purpose. Not very different to the current situation where there are zillions of labels each covering a micro-niche (look at the trend of CD-R only labels, where it is a challenge to find 100 customers worldwide). > being beholden to the ownership of a business and the perils attached to > that. The Tonic booking policy with its guest curators is a fine model that > has resulted in some inspired bookings, but in general I'd prefer to keep > the process in the hands of others with a broader overview of the entire > scene, not just a niche. Hopefully that doesn't sound too rash... This last point is interesting since looking at Zorn for the past years I can't stop thinking about the following trend: 1/ label owners are mainly crooks or clueless, then I will take care of my own label business (Tzadik) 2/ club owners are mainly crooks or clueless, then I will take care of my own club booking (Tonic) 3/ writers/critics are clueless, then... no interviews or comments what's next? 4/ fans are stupid or clueless, then I will create a Zorn membership card to select who can listen to my music or buy my records? I am of course exagerating, but am I the only person puzzled with that? This is specially funny because this trend really started when Zorn's music became less and less controversial, and the man more and more covered with what are clear signs of honor and respect. Patrice. - - ------------------------------ End of Zorn List Digest V3 #365 ******************************* To unsubscribe from zorn-list-digest, send an email to "majordomo@lists.xmission.com" with "unsubscribe zorn-list-digest" in the body of the message. For information on digests or retrieving files and old messages send "help" to the same address. Do not use quotes in your message. A non-digest (direct mail) version of this list is also available; to subscribe to that instead, replace all instances of "zorn-list-digest" in the commands above with "zorn-list". Back issues are available for anonymous FTP from ftp.xmission.com, in pub/lists/zorn-list/archive. These are organized by date. Problems? Email the list owner at zorn-list-owner@lists.xmission.com