From: owner-zorn-list-digest@lists.xmission.com (Zorn List Digest) To: zorn-list-digest@lists.xmission.com Subject: Zorn List Digest V3 #551 Reply-To: zorn-list Sender: owner-zorn-list-digest@lists.xmission.com Errors-To: owner-zorn-list-digest@lists.xmission.com Precedence: bulk Zorn List Digest Monday, August 27 2001 Volume 03 : Number 551 In this issue: - Re: Aging Artists RE: Lords of Chaos RE: Lords of CHOAS! Re: Lords of CHAOS, etc. Metal / Fat Jesus Re: Lords of chaos Re: Aging Artists RE: Lords of CHOAS! Re: Aging Artists RE: Lords of CHOAS! SABBATH tidbit RE: Lords of CHAOS! RE: Lords of CHOAS! Zorn-pol ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Date: Sun, 26 Aug 2001 20:07:45 EDT From: JonAbbey2@aol.com Subject: Re: Aging Artists In a message dated 8/26/01 6:59:52 PM, velaires@earthlink.net writes: << Hm, perhaps, but I still think this world would have been a far better place > had James Brown stopped making music in 1974. > > I first saw him live in 1982, and he was utterly amazing. And there are a few really good JB recordings post 1974. >> yeah, that was one of the silliest statements I've ever seen on this list. I saw him around 1986 at the Apollo, and he was awesome. Jon www.erstwhilerecords.com - - ------------------------------ Date: Sun, 26 Aug 2001 20:37:51 -0400 From: "Steve Smith" Subject: RE: Lords of Chaos William York screamed in vengeance: > Weinstein's book is > more on the dry/academic side, though that doesn't make it boring. I'm often leary of academic takes on rock music, as I've mentioned here before, although I've also read some absolutely remarkable work as well, like Southern Illinois University at Carbondale professor and chairman of the English department Kevin J. H. Dettmar's essay "Is Rock 'n' Roll Dead? Only if You Aren't Listening," published in May in The Chronicle of Higher Education. (Anyone interested in reading that essay can drop me a line.) But I would never anticipate boredom from a sociology professor who posts a photo of herself with Ronnie James Dio on her DePaul University website: http://www.depaul.edu/~dweinste/ Lots of information about the book there, as well as informative updates and trivial links. Steve Smith ssmith36@sprynet.com - - ------------------------------ Date: Sun, 26 Aug 2001 20:49:44 -0400 From: "Steve Smith" Subject: RE: Lords of CHOAS! Benito Vergara intoned darkly: > Everything I know about "smart metal" I got from Steve Smith, but don't > blame him for my recommendations. Giving credit where credit is due, I owe a lot of what I've learned to Z-listers Jeroen de Boer and William York, who've provided me with great leads, as well as a friend of mine at the New York Times, who first told me about Meshuggah, Candiria and Dillinger Escape Plan. > If you're talking about so-called technical metal with intricate guitar > passages and time signatures, then you should check out Meshuggah, Gorguts, > Cryptopsy and, on the somewhat lighter side of hardcore, the Dillinger > Escape Plan, Drowning Man, etc. And if you're not averse to the more operatic style of metal vocals (think Judas Priest and Queensryche), you might enjoy the metal calesthenics of Spiral Architect. Since I prefer the Cookie Monster school of vocalism, this band was not for me, but many others will enjoy them. > on the somewhat lighter side of stoner rock, Kyuss and High On > Fire. And the hypnotic Kyuss spin-off Queens of the Stone Age, too. > But if you're talking about lyrics -- well, I'm not so sure there. The Ulver > double CD is great -- you can't go wrong with Blake -- but the music sounds > like bland industrial stuff to me. Otherwise be prepared to slog through > lyrics taken from medical textbooks (Carcass, Exhumed) or about traipsing > through wintry woods with wolves howling (most of Ulver, Darkthrone, > Emperor). My personal preference in lyrics has tended to run towards the hyperemotional angst of Napalm Death, Meshuggah, Converge, Dillinger Escape Plan, and the like. I think that stuff - whether it's dealing with international politics or interpersonal politics, but especially the latter - tends to fuse pretty nicely with the type of incredibly driven music that I am most drawn towards. This is by no means an exclusive taste - but when I'm confronted with the other stuff you mention, whether it's the medical mishaps or the Conan/Thor fantasies, I tend to ignore the lyrics altogether and let the voice simply hit me as another instrument. And then of course there's the homicide fantasies of Six Feet Under and the Satanic balderdash of Dimmu Borgir, about which, the less said the better. Steve Smith ssmith36@sprynet.com - - ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 27 Aug 2001 01:10:51 From: "William York" Subject: Re: Lords of CHAOS, etc. Re: Heaven and Hell, some of the music might not be that gripping -- it has a few lulls -- but for me parts of it as as good/innovative/smart/genuinely moving as anything I have heard in the last couple of years. There aren't really track titles, but 1 and 8 on the first disc, and 1 and 3 on the second disc, specifically, blow me away every time. The vocalist, Garm (aka a whole bunch of other names: G Wolf, Chrystophrus Rygg, etc.) has a voice that some might consider pompous or overbearing, but to me he is just amazing not only in terms of his range (black metal screaming, falsetto baritone opera (?), quiet crooning, monk-like chanting, etc), but his overall presence. I do not know many other singers who could make Blake's occasionally almost literary dissertation-style poetry sound so life-or-death in terms of delivery. Yes, I'm a fan... I like pretty much everything Ulver has done (including the recent and sometimes maligned Perdition City), although each album is vastly different from the next. Only 2, or 2 and a half, of their 5 (+ 2 eps) are actually even metal. The Aquarius review of their recent EP, Silence Teaches You How to Sing, even compared parts of it to folks like Fennesz, Tarwater, and Phillip Jeck .... Directly related, since they share members, is Arcturus. They also have a poetry-set-to-music song, "Alone" (E.A Poe) that is really great. I like all of their stuff too, though mainly 'La Masquerade Infernale' (bombastic dark-carnival-opera-metal w/ electronic touches, keyboards galore, etc) and 'Disguised Masters' (reworkings of previous material w/ jungle/ambient overtones and even a totally bizarre 'gangsta rap' version of one song ...). Others in this territory (Norwegian post-black metal?) are Solefald, Dodheimsgard, Fleurety ('Department of Apocalyptic Affairs' is absolutely baffling, weirder than Arcturus but not quite as good). I must say that the "what are they THINKING?" factor often weighs in on my enjoyment of these groups, but it's not the only factor, and it doesn't mean they aren't "smart" -- there's just a totally foreign sensibility at work (to my ears). It's worth noting, though, that none of these groups has much in common w/ more "techincal" stuff like Meshuggah or Dillinger Escape Plan or death metal or anything like that. Also, this stuff (Fleurety, Arcturus, etc) may be an acquired taste since there is really nothing to compare it to ... WY _________________________________________________________________ Get your FREE download of MSN Explorer at http://explorer.msn.com/intl.asp - - ------------------------------ Date: Sun, 26 Aug 2001 18:19:33 -0700 From: "Revue des Fossiles" Subject: Metal / Fat Jesus In my book, Crom: The Cocaine Wars 1974-1989 (Pessimiser Records P-34) rates as the finest summation of Heavy Metal qua Heavy Metal since the Venom 7" on Ecstatic Peace. By the way, anyone know whatever happened to the planned Kevin Sharp/Zorn duet album "Fat Jesus"? - - RdF. _________________________________________________________________ Get your FREE download of MSN Explorer at http://explorer.msn.com/intl.asp - - ------------------------------ Date: Sun, 26 Aug 2001 18:46:22 -0700 (PDT) From: Ryan Novak Subject: Re: Lords of chaos >But if you're talking about lyrics -- well, I'm not >so >sure there. The Ulver >double CD is great -- you can't go wrong with Blake - >but the music sounds >like bland industrial stuff to me. Otherwise be >prepared to slog through >lyrics taken from medical textbooks (Carcass, >Exhumed) >or about traipsing >through wintry woods with wolves howling (most of >Ulver, Darkthrone, >Emperor). Hi, Yeah, I was mainly concerned with lyrics since metal guys don't seem to have any problems playing highly technical and complicated work. It's too bad though that some groups would put so much effort into that and then bury it in a song form where lyrics are usually made mandatory, and often suck. - ---Ryan N. __________________________________________________ Do You Yahoo!? Make international calls for as low as $.04/minute with Yahoo! Messenger http://phonecard.yahoo.com/ - - ------------------------------ Date: Sat, 25 Aug 2001 21:09:55 -0500 From: "&c." Subject: Re: Aging Artists This concept was hit home for me while watching the film Pollock the other night. He was not the hot shot once his paintings stopped being novel. Rather than others expecting continued greatness, he expected it from himself. It ultimately caused his downfall. Artists (and their audiences) need to be content with the artist becoming a master practitioner. If the craft is performed well, even with out innovation, there will be continued respect (maybe not total adoration, though). At least this is how it should be. Call me an idealist. Zach - - ------------------------------ Date: Sun, 26 Aug 2001 23:36:19 -0400 From: Lang Thompson Subject: RE: Lords of CHOAS! >Since I prefer the Cookie Monster school of vocalism, Well Steve do you get credit for this one? It's a perfect description of the stuff I hear on the radio all the time (but never like enough to actually buy). LT - ------------------------------------------- Adventures In Sound http://wlt4.home.mindspring.com/adventures.htm Outsider Music Mailing List http://wlt4.home.mindspring.com/outsider.htm Documentary Sound http://wlt4.home.mindspring.com/adventures/documentary.htm Full Alert Film Review http://wlt4.home.mindspring.com/fafr.htm - - ------------------------------ Date: Sun, 26 Aug 2001 23:39:19 -0400 From: Lang Thompson Subject: Re: Aging Artists >Rather than others expecting continued greatness, he expected it from >himself. It ultimately caused his downfall. Or alcohol, driving and a ditch did. LT - - ------------------------------ Date: Sun, 26 Aug 2001 21:38:06 -0700 From: "Benito Vergara" Subject: RE: Lords of CHOAS! > -----Original Message----- > From: owner-zorn-list@lists.xmission.com > [mailto:owner-zorn-list@lists.xmission.com]On Behalf Of Lang Thompson > Sent: Sunday, August 26, 2001 8:36 PM > >Since I prefer the Cookie Monster school of vocalism, > > Well Steve do you get credit for this one? It's a perfect description of > the stuff I hear on the radio all the time (but never like enough to > actually buy). As much as I admire Steve's taste, alas, no. Type in "cookie monster vocals" and "metal" in Google and you'll see what I mean. 1,040 results! (Weird -- on page 3 I actually see a list I made for Amazon.com referenced in Google!) So what's the opposite? Geddy Lee's testicles in a vise? Later, Ben http://members.tripod.com/~tamad2/ ICQ: 12832406 - - ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 27 Aug 2001 02:22:16 -0400 From: "Jeton Ademaj" Subject: SABBATH tidbit hi all, re: the sabbath discussion, i suggest getting the following in the following order: Paranoid Master Of Reality Sabbath Bloody Sabbath Black Sabbath Vol. 4 Sabotage Never Say Die Heaven And Hell Born Again Also, if u can't get original vinyl or 8 trak, get the 1996-97 british cd releases from Castle Communications...they reproduce the artwork faithfully (including the original oversize poster that came with the original 'Master..."(the best Sab photo ever) as well as the raised black lettering on the cover) and more importantly, the Castle releases are *remastered from the masters*, which is critical, because the American releases sound like diptheric shit. i grew up on Sabbath and couldn't listen to them for ten years after losing my 8 trak, the cd's sounded so emasculated, none of that bite or texture that's made a generation of musicians wanna rip open spacetime. the dynamics are now better than the old 8 trak, and the burning dragon-fire guitar texture is almost what it was on analog. The remasters put Sabbath at the top of the dark-texture heap again, crank up the first minute of "Into the Void" and put it against Cradle of filth or Trey Azagthoth anytime.... peace _________________________________________________________________ Get your FREE download of MSN Explorer at http://explorer.msn.com/intl.asp - - ------------------------------ Date: Sun, 26 Aug 2001 23:38:33 -0700 (PDT) From: Peter Beddow Subject: RE: Lords of CHAOS! - --- Lang Thompson wrote: > > >Since I prefer the Cookie Monster school of > vocalism, > > Well Steve do you get credit for this one? It's a > perfect description of > the stuff I hear on the radio all the time (but > never like enough to > actually buy). That would be pop music. Those bands have basically taken only the most easily identifiable (and imitatable) characteristics of death metal (Cookie Monster vocals, guitar tones, etc.) and have grafted them onto basic pop structures. Hooray. Someone here mentioned Weakling... I picked it up a couple of weeks ago -- a great album! Right up there with all the classic Norwegian stuff, but with a sense of humor (!), and a much wider range of influences. Hooray for Josh Smith! Lurve, Pete __________________________________________________ Do You Yahoo!? Make international calls for as low as $.04/minute with Yahoo! Messenger http://phonecard.yahoo.com/ - - ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 27 Aug 2001 02:48:15 -0400 From: "Steve Smith" Subject: RE: Lords of CHOAS! Sez Ben apres Lang apres moi: >> >Since I prefer the Cookie Monster school of vocalism, >> >> Well Steve do you get credit for this one? It's a perfect description of >> the stuff I hear on the radio all the time (but never like enough to >> actually buy). > > As much as I admire Steve's taste, alas, no. Type in "cookie monster vocals" > and "metal" in Google and you'll see what I mean. Yup. It's true. You can find "cookie monster vocals" referenced in just about every damn metal fanzine on earth now. I'm still waiting for the day when I coin something that becomes that ubiquitous... > (Weird -- > on page 3 I actually see a list I made for Amazon.com referenced in Google!) Weirder still - when you call up said list on Amazon, the related lists on the right side of the page are almost entirely recommendations for cookbooks, even though you only recommended a single cookbook. Guess the Amazon software couldn't figure out what to make of the rest of your list. Hell, the inclusion of Cryptopsy and the Cardigans alone probably sent their poor server into a fugue state. > So what's the opposite? Geddy Lee's testicles in a vise? Like my dog really needs his very own rendition of "The Road to Bangkok"... Steve Smith ssmith36@sprynet.com - - ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 27 Aug 2001 07:27:48 +0000 From: "Bill Ashline" Subject: Zorn-pol

Radical= Getting to the roots of things

Radical Jewish Culture = Getting to the roots of what it means to be Jewish in perhaps a non-normative counterintuitive manner (an reconfiguration and rethinking of cultural and ethnic identity)




-----------
Interviewer: "If you had to give the world one gift, what would it be?"
Pablo Neruda: "The best gift would be the restoration of a true democracy in the United States. In other words, the elimination of regressive forces in that country who spill blood in faraway lands. A great country like the United States, divested of its political and economic arrogance, would be a grand gift for the world."
"Intellectual alienation is a creation of middle class society. What I call middle-class society is any society that becomes rigidified in predetermined forms, forbidding all evolution, all gains, all progress, all discovery. I call middle class a closed society in which life has no taste, in which the air is tainted, in which ideas and men are corrupt....I am not a prisoner of history. I should not seek there for the meaning of my destiny. I should constantly remind myself that the real "leap" consists of introducing invention into existence. In the world through which I travel, I am endlessly creating myself."--Frantz Fanon
"The idea of revolution should not disappear. It means that the idea of subversion is synonymous with the defense of liberty in music. It is what Ornette sums up saying ?Remove the caste system from sound ? It is an important idea, potentially rich and in which I find completely my way. Because we are all prisoners of mind trends like : «How are we supposed to perceive music ? ?what is the value of music in connection with our present society ?; «will everybody like it ?; ?will this record be sold by millions ?; «critics say that this record is great and that this other one is rubbish ? All these events happen before hearing one note ! And it conditions the judgment. But music is something else, something that you can never touch. Without all this propaganda, everybody could freely listen to it, according to his own experience."--Bill Laswell
"...it is easy to find a type of machine to correspond to each society, not because machines are determinant, but because they express social forms capable of engendering and using them."--Gilles Deleuze
"It is part of the mechanism of domination to forbid recognition of the suffering it produces, and there is
a straight line of development between the gospel of happiness and the construction of camps of extermination so far off in Poland that each of our own countrymen can convince himself that he cannot hear the screams of
pain."--Theodor Adorno

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