From: owner-zorn-list-digest@lists.xmission.com (Zorn List Digest) To: zorn-list-digest@lists.xmission.com Subject: Zorn List Digest V3 #603 Reply-To: zorn-list Sender: owner-zorn-list-digest@lists.xmission.com Errors-To: owner-zorn-list-digest@lists.xmission.com Precedence: bulk Zorn List Digest Wednesday, October 31 2001 Volume 03 : Number 603 In this issue: - Re: fela & laswell Re: fela & laswell RE: Seattle Chamber Players: November 11 season opener Re: fela & laswell Re: fela & laswell Re: fela & laswell zappa article Re: Maybe Monday Re: fela & laswell Zorn and Zionism, Daniel Carter article, Acid Mothers interview Re: not fela & laswell--jandek Re: fela & laswell Re: Tokyo and Rome advice Re: Tokyo and Rome advice ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Date: Wed, 31 Oct 2001 00:25:17 +0000 From: "Bill Ashline" Subject: Re: fela & laswell >From: JonAbbey2@aol.com >maybe my choice of words, emotion vs. technique, wasn't quite right. a >large >percentage of Laswell's work seems half-assed and superficial to my ears, >and >his attitude towards consumers, with constant repackaging of the same >material, not to mention the same groove, is condescending at best. for him >to talk smack about Fela, one of the greatest artists of the last thirty >years in my mind, is pretty ridiculous/hilarious. As a Laswell fan, I recently bought a copy of "Filmtracks 2000." Ordered before I knew what was going to be on the CD and was in fact looking forward to what he would do with the genre. I was quite disappointed to receive a CD of completely recycled sounds from his catalogue. A lot of fans were. This is where I concur with you. He likes to recycle his riffs. It's a bad tendency and gives plenty of weight to his detractors. That said, I bought "Gigi" and "Radioaxiom" at the same time and find them to be outstanding. I was quite a bit less impressed with Herbie's latest, but these other two are the best work he's put out in a few years in my opinion. It's nice to read some "balanced" discussion here. I'm surprised that no one has mentioned Laswell's work with Samulnori or Kodo or Foday Musa Suso. And I think that the complaint about his bass playing is a bit irrelevant. Musicianship is only part of the equation, particularly when a lot of studio work is involved. If musicianship is everything, then why haven't people assailed punk as much, a movement in which the inability to play well was taken as a virtue. The issue should be the broader holistic matter of music generally. You can't reduce music to the mere sum of its parts. I've really been enjoying Fela this past several months and I'd like to get more of the reissues on Barclay. Is there a list of these releases somewhere and a good place to buy them? Thanks. _________________________________________________________________ Get your FREE download of MSN Explorer at http://explorer.msn.com/intl.asp - - ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 31 Oct 2001 16:58:09 -0800 From: Skip Heller Subject: Re: fela & laswell And I think that the complaint about his bass playing is a bit irrelevant. > Musicianship is only part of the equation, particularly when a lot of studio > work is involved. If musicianship is everything, then why haven't people > assailed punk as much, a movement in which the inability to play well was > taken as a virtue. The issue should be the broader holistic matter of music > generally. You can't reduce music to the mere sum of its parts. Personally, I think the scale for musicianship is a sliding one. And I think Laswell's bass playing has never been completely efficient, groove-wise. As to why people haven't assailed punk as much, it's because the technical mission was never as statistically dense as that of, for instance, Mahavishnu. But, if you listen to the Ramones, you hear a group who played great together, as opposed to the Clash, who always sounded like they were falling apart at the seams. Whether there were as many quickly-executed notes in the recipe was irrelevant. How powerful the performance was the issue. As for the virtue of playing badly, I never heard anyone say X played "too well" for punk cred, and God knows the musicianship was uniformly high. Same for the Minutemen. The broader holistic matter of music is often under the thumb of its technical execution. The practical definition of technique is really the distance from your mind to your hands. You may have the greatest idea in the world, but it's meaningless if you can't articulate it convincingly. This is as true in music as it is in speech. skip h np: ellery eskelin, jazz trash - - ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 30 Oct 2001 20:03:24 -0500 From: "Steve Smith" Subject: RE: Seattle Chamber Players: November 11 season opener Ah - those are the two pieces premiered over two programs (as Part 1 and Part 2) by members of the Group for Contemporary Music at Bargemusic a few weeks ago. Zorn was very excited about those pieces, but unfortunately I couldn't make it to any of the four gigs. Steve Smith ssmith36@sprynet.com NP - game three, fingers crossed... - -----Original Message----- From: owner-zorn-list@lists.xmission.com [mailto:owner-zorn-list@lists.xmission.com]On Behalf Of Herb Levy Sent: Tuesday, October 30, 2001 6:46 PM To: zorn-list@lists.xmission.com Subject: Fwd: Seattle Chamber Players: November 11 season opener When I sent preliminary publicity about Seattle Chamber Players 2001/02 season to the list earlier, there was some unanswerable questions about what music by Zorn they'd be playing. Here's the answer: Chimeras. - - ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 30 Oct 2001 20:09:58 EST From: JonAbbey2@aol.com Subject: Re: fela & laswell In a message dated 10/30/01 7:26:34 PM, bashline@hotmail.com writes: << I'd like to get more of the reissues on Barclay. Is there a list of thes= e=20 releases=20 somewhere and a good place to buy them? >> the 25 are Army Arrangement/Government Chicken Boy, Beasts Of No=20 Nation/O.D.O.O, Coffin For Head Of State/Unknown Soldier,=20 Confusion/Gentleman, Everything Scatter/Noise For Vendor Mouth, Expensive=20 Shit/He Miss Road, Fela With Ginger Baker Live!, Ikoyi Blindness/Kalakuta=20 Show, J.J.D./Unnecessary Begging, Koola Lobitos/The '69 L.A. Sessions, Live=20 In Amsterdam, Monkey Banana/Excuse O, Open and Close/Afrodisiac, Opposite=20 People/Sorrow Tears and Blood, Original Sufferhead/I.T.T., Roforofo Fight/Th= e=20 Fela Singles, Shakara/London Scene, Shuffering and Shmiling/No Agreement,=20 Stalemate/Fear Not For Man, Teacher Don=E2=80=99t Take Me Nonsense, Undergro= und=20 System, Upside Down/Music Of Many Colours, V.I.P./Authority Stealing, Yellow= =20 Fever/Na Poi, and Zombie.=20 I got them all as imports from Dusty Groove, but they've all been since=20 issued on MCA in the US, so they shouldn't be too expensive. speaking of good prices, though: anyone wanting the new Billie Holiday=20 Columbia ten disc box, but not willing to pay $140, www.ccmusic.com is=20 selling it for $110 including shipping. Jon www.erstwhilerecords.com - - ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 31 Oct 2001 01:25:51 +0000 From: "Bill Ashline" Subject: Re: fela & laswell >From: Skip Heller >As to why people haven't assailed punk as much, it's because the technical >mission was never as statistically dense as that of, for instance, >Mahavishnu. But, if you listen to the Ramones, you hear a group who played >great together, as opposed to the Clash, who always sounded like they were >falling apart at the seams. Whether there were as many quickly-executed >notes in the recipe was irrelevant. How powerful the performance was the >issue. > >As for the virtue of playing badly, I never heard anyone say X played "too >well" for punk cred, and God knows the musicianship was uniformly high. >Same for the Minutemen. > >The broader holistic matter of music is often under the thumb of its >technical execution. The practical definition of technique is really the >distance from your mind to your hands. You may have the greatest idea in >the world, but it's meaningless if you can't articulate it convincingly. >This is as true in music as it is in speech. Very interesting points, Skip. But what about when the studio becomes the instrument as opposed to the conventional instrument? Your point sounds quite convincing in terms of the live context, and I've never been that impressed with Laswell as a live musician, with the exception of Last Exit, but what about the advantages afforded/offered with studio production. Oh I've heard the complaints here as well, but all of them can pretty much be reduced to "I don't like ambient spacing in my production." Which means that we are accursing genres again. It would be sort of like me saying, "I can't truck much of your taste because you have a penchant for liking 'cookie-monster vocals.'" As to the point about the Clash, well, I disagree with it. But no surprise there. We don't see eye to eye on Ornette Coleman either. _________________________________________________________________ Get your FREE download of MSN Explorer at http://explorer.msn.com/intl.asp - - ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 31 Oct 2001 17:50:31 -0800 From: Skip Heller Subject: Re: fela & laswell >> From: Skip Heller > >> As to why people haven't assailed punk as much, it's because the technical >> mission was never as statistically dense as that of, for instance, >> Mahavishnu. But, if you listen to the Ramones, you hear a group who played >> great together, as opposed to the Clash, who always sounded like they were >> falling apart at the seams. Whether there were as many quickly-executed >> notes in the recipe was irrelevant. How powerful the performance was the >> issue. >> >> As for the virtue of playing badly, I never heard anyone say X played "too >> well" for punk cred, and God knows the musicianship was uniformly high. >> Same for the Minutemen. >> >> The broader holistic matter of music is often under the thumb of its >> technical execution. The practical definition of technique is really the >> distance from your mind to your hands. You may have the greatest idea in >> the world, but it's meaningless if you can't articulate it convincingly. >> This is as true in music as it is in speech. > > > Very interesting points, Skip. But what about when the studio becomes the > instrument as opposed to the conventional instrument? If you're playing a conventional instrument, that's part of the job. The studio itself is limited as an instrument, largely because -- unless you're doing completely non-analog non-manual music -- someone still has to play a conventional instrument and get his point across by those means. (To me a turntable is a conventional instrument. You have to move it around with your hands to get it to work just like a drum or a piano keyboard.) Your point sounds > quite convincing in terms of the live context, and I've never been that > impressed with Laswell as a live musician, with the exception of Last Exit, > but what about the advantages afforded/offered with studio production. I'm in the Glenn Gould "creative cheating" camp, but it's easy to use GG as a yardstick because his techinque -- as a pianist -- was above reproach. Oh > I've heard the complaints here as well, but all of them can pretty much be > reduced to "I don't like ambient spacing in my production." I agree here. If you don't like amibient spacing, why would you ever buy Laswell? It would be sort of like me saying, "I > can't truck much of your taste because you have a penchant for liking > 'cookie-monster vocals.'" What are "cookie montser vocals"? As to the point about the Clash, well, I disagree > with it. Y'ever see a live Clash show? best -- skip h - - ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 30 Oct 2001 21:04:10 -0500 From: "Caleb T. Deupree" Subject: zappa article I was randomly surfing the web tonight and found this interesting 1988 article by Frank Zappa, responding to selected passages from Allan Bloom's Closing of the American Mind. http://www.npq.org/issues/v44/p26.html - -- Caleb Deupree cdeupree@erinet.com - - ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 30 Oct 2001 21:13:07 EST From: Fastian@aol.com Subject: Re: Maybe Monday >>'Maybe Monday' is Fred Frith Guitar, Miya Masaoka on Koto and Electronics and Larry Ochs on Sax's. >> >>A final note, they were introduced as "from San Francisco" to which Fred replied "Where's San Francisco" I must say they really looked like a bunch of old San Fran hippies, appropriately playing with a much younger women. Frith has that kind of Timothy Leary look, and Ochs has super sparse long white hair. If they could get Terry Riley on piano/organ it would be perfect! All in all an evening worth seeing. With 'Konk Pack' on Friday, this is maybe the best Earshot for modern pure improv. - -Robert<< I think Frith said "Where's San Francisco?" because I think the band members live in the East Bay(Berkeley or Oakland) across the bay from SF. Maybe Monday played Sunday night at The SF Jazz Festival with Terry Riley on the bill but playing seperately. I went and saw Konk Pack instead at TUVA in Berkeley which I think was a bit of a let down. For me Roger Turner was the highlight of the band,always propelling the band and having quite a collection of noisemaking toys I haven't seen before. Thomas Lehn had what appeared to be an old foldup modular analog synth.While Lehn visually was quite animated, all the sounds seemed the same and very primitive. Although I've liked many things Tim Hodgkinson has done over the years, I found his tabletop guitar playing quite boring, just banging and scraping with the only effect used was piercing feedback. Other members of the audience seemed to really enjoy it though. Maybe just not my cup of tea. John Threadgould np "Music for violin and piano"- Feldman/Courvoisier - - ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 31 Oct 2001 02:15:00 +0000 From: "Bill Ashline" Subject: Re: fela & laswell >From: Skip Heller >It would be sort of like me saying, "I > > can't truck much of your taste because you have a penchant for liking > > 'cookie-monster vocals.'" > >What are "cookie montser vocals"? That would be a phrase coined by one of the members of "Slayer" who was describing one of the tropes of heavy metal. It was discussed here in detail some weeks back. I must say it was a comment that's allowed me to listen to metal in a whole new light these days. > As to the point about the Clash, well, I disagree > > with it. > >Y'ever see a live Clash show? Can't say I have, so I'll have to take your word for it. Have listened a lot on records though. _________________________________________________________________ Get your FREE download of MSN Explorer at http://explorer.msn.com/intl.asp - - ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 31 Oct 2001 20:27:00 -0500 From: Perfect Sound Forever Subject: Zorn and Zionism, Daniel Carter article, Acid Mothers interview Greetings, In the latest edition of Perfect Sound Forever , you'll find (among other things): ACID MOTHERS TEMPLE INTERVIEW The outest in Japanese psych from ambient to all-out aural assault DANIEL CARTER 'Test' for the saxophonist. Chapter from Phil Freeman's NEW YORK IS NOW! book about this fabled musician and his exploits. ZORN AND ZIONISM What are the religious/political dimensions of the work of the great saxist/composer/record company maven? We do anticipate constructive commentary from our friends on this mailing list! We're always looking for good material so let us know if you have any writing or ideas for upcoming issues. See you online, Jason Perfect Sound Forever online music magazine perfect-sound@furious.com http://www.furious.com/perfect - - ------------------------------ Date: 30 Oct 2001 21:56:46 CST From: CBG Subject: Re: not fela & laswell--jandek On Mon, 29 Oct 2001 21:43:18 EST, JonAbbey2@aol.com wrote: > NP: Jandek-Nine-Thirty (Corwood Industries) (am I the only > Jandek completist on the list? not the LPs, but I have all > eighteen CDs, including both solo acapella ones. not for > everyone, but I'm a fan, and a sucker for the $8 pricetags.) Coincidentally, I'm listening to _Nine-Thirty_ right now. I just got my shipment of 20 CDs last Friday--I keep the ones I need for myself and sell the rest to the store where I work. Oops, the CD just ended. Time for _Put My Dream On This Planet_. At $4 per disc with the bulk discount, you can scarcely go wrong. I've decided not to scour the earth for the LPs, since Corwood's reissue program is moving at such a brisk pace--though I'm sure the covers look even better in the large format! Some of the covers are worth the money by themselves. - -- Charles Link for the curious: - - ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 30 Oct 2001 23:02:18 -0500 From: Lang Thompson Subject: Re: fela & laswell >speaking of good prices, though: anyone wanting the new Billie Holiday >Columbia ten disc box, but not willing to pay $140, www.ccmusic.com is >selling it for $110 including shipping. And if you're willing to wait a few months it will probably show up at the Columbia House record club at about 40-50% off like the Miles boxes. - - ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 30 Oct 2001 21:30:46 -0800 (PST) From: Ronald Hiznay Subject: Re: Tokyo and Rome advice As for Tokyo, I'm here currently, and I can tell you that you better search really far ahead of time as all of the clubs are really hard to find, unless you know Japanese. Even if you have a map, that's no way to be sure you'll be able to find the club. For experimental music (on a regular basis) you should check out Star Pines, or Manda-la 2. But many of the clubs which offer yer wierd-ass experimental jazz are also strait jazz places, like Shinjuku Pit Inn. If you tell me when you will be here I will tell you what I know about shows that are going on. Also check www.japanimprov.com they have a wide assortment of experimental improv with some tour date info, Feel free to contact me about club locations, I know a few of them and I check frequently for shows, so I have some idea what is going on I don't know Japanese, so if anyone else has any suggestions on Tokyo venues please feel free to give me some advice. mushmush __________________________________________________ Do You Yahoo!? Make a great connection at Yahoo! Personals. http://personals.yahoo.com - - ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 30 Oct 2001 23:28:12 -0800 From: Jim Flannery Subject: Re: Tokyo and Rome advice Ronald Hiznay wrote: > > sure you'll be able to find the club. For experimental > music (on a regular basis) you should check out Star > Pines, or Manda-la 2. But many of the clubs which Maps & notes on some venues (mostly leaning towards the noise and psych camps) here: http://www.ongakuweb.com/tokyo_guide/index.html - -- - -------------------------------------------------------------------------- Jim Flannery newgrange@sfo.com "For children are innocent and love justice; while most of us are wicked and naturally prefer mercy" -- G.K. Chesterton np: Jackie-O Motherfucker, _The Magick Fire Music_ nr: Tristan Egolf, _Lord of the Barnyard_ - - ------------------------------ End of Zorn List Digest V3 #603 ******************************* To unsubscribe from zorn-list-digest, send an email to "majordomo@lists.xmission.com" with "unsubscribe zorn-list-digest" in the body of the message. For information on digests or retrieving files and old messages send "help" to the same address. Do not use quotes in your message. 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