From: owner-zorn-list-digest@lists.xmission.com (Zorn List Digest) To: zorn-list-digest@lists.xmission.com Subject: Zorn List Digest V3 #754 Reply-To: zorn-list Sender: owner-zorn-list-digest@lists.xmission.com Errors-To: owner-zorn-list-digest@lists.xmission.com Precedence: bulk Zorn List Digest Wednesday, February 6 2002 Volume 03 : Number 754 In this issue: - Re: Tori Amos, indeed: Highbrow ripp-offs Zorn's Pants Re: Tori Amos, indeed: Highbrow ripp-offs downtown related items on ebay Old School Zorn as Miles???????? Re: Tori Amos, indeed: Highbrow ripp-offs cibo matto recs Re: Independent Groups Re: Zorn as Miles???????? manchester with previte the new miles's ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Date: Wed, 6 Feb 2002 19:53:02 +0100 From: "Remco Takken" Subject: Re: Tori Amos, indeed: Highbrow ripp-offs I was just curious > about concrete examples because you sound like you're coming from more of a > jazz/improv/experimental direction, and while I find it easy to think of > rock ripoffs, it's a little tougher with the Highbrow Stuff. What about a 'highbrow guy' trying to be Frank Zappa? Pierre Henry once made a hopeless sixties album called Messe pour les temps present. He really tries to keep up with psychedelica by using the riff of Louie Louie in his score. Ouch. It's just as embarassing as seeing Mick Jagger discussing the problems of the world with the bishop of Canterbury. At least one of them must have had a really bad advisor. - ------------ Dutch composer Louis Andriessen would be utterly cool if he would stop trying to be fucking Stravinsky all the time. Although Andriessen built a sound world of his own, the fandom towards Stravinsky is just too obvious to be regarded as 'transcended' or 'perverted'. He just uses piles of Stravinsky in his orchestrations. Stravinsky might be the winner here: it should be very easy to find further examples of mediocre composers doing the rhythmic thing Stravinsky refined, or the use of wind instruments in small orchestras. btw saxophone player Joshua Redman got stuck at the 'c' in his alphabetically ordered jazz record collection. His cd 'Beyond' doesn't even try to go beyond Coltrane. Redman became *so* Coltrane, it's almost scary. And useless. Regards, Remco Takken - - ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 06 Feb 2002 14:12:44 -0500 From: "Duke Wong" Subject: Zorn's Pants Personally I have seen the following colored cargo motifs worn by Mr. Zorn: green, gray-white, red, yellow-green, blue When asked how many pairs of such pants he owns, I believe the answer was around 10. I guess the man likes his cargo camos. Let's see which ones he'll don for tomorrow night's show. My bet's on the yellow ones. - -- Duke np: Roberto Juan Rodriguez, El Danzon de Moises - ------------------------------ Second (and a trivial matter I might add) is that I first saw John Zorn live about 2 years ago.Hewas wearing camouflage pants. In the next 8 or so times I saw him, he had the same pants on. About a year ago, I saw a picture of him in the NY Times and he had the pants on again. I just looked at the pics on the website recommended of the Naked City live from 1990. Guess what? He is wearing thepants. - ------------------------------ _________________________________________________________________ Join the world’s largest e-mail service with MSN Hotmail. http://www.hotmail.com - - ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 06 Feb 2002 12:30:01 -0800 From: Chris Selvig Subject: Re: Tori Amos, indeed: Highbrow ripp-offs Remco, In a private email to Zach, which I never got 'round to sending, I was going to ask him if he was talking about Redman and/or James Carter. Henry also made that record with Spooky Tooth, so I guess he really wanted to rock. OK, I'm going to get in trouble for this, but I'm going to stick my digital foot in my virtual mouth and ask: is jazz a dead language at this point, or can we really look forward to major formal innovations in the future? Of course it's hard to predict if or when someone will invent the next dead horse, but even the hot young players aren't really doing much that would have been new in 1982, much less now. The lines between European free improv and American free jazz are growing blurrier, and forays into electronics/turntable action are more common, and previously untouched ethnic musics are crossbred with jazz, and that's about it. I'll be preparing my foxhole. - -Selvig At 07:53 PM 2/6/02 +0100, Remco Takken wrote: >I was just curious > > about concrete examples because you sound like you're coming from more of >a > > jazz/improv/experimental direction, and while I find it easy to think of > > rock ripoffs, it's a little tougher with the Highbrow Stuff. >What about a 'highbrow guy' trying to be Frank Zappa? Pierre Henry once made >a hopeless sixties album called Messe pour les temps present. He really >tries to keep up with psychedelica by using the riff of Louie Louie in his >score. Ouch. > >It's just as embarassing as seeing Mick Jagger discussing the problems of >the world with the bishop of Canterbury. At least one of them must have had >a really bad advisor. >------------ >Dutch composer Louis Andriessen would be utterly cool if he would stop >trying to be fucking Stravinsky all the time. Although Andriessen built a >sound world of his own, the fandom towards Stravinsky is just too obvious to >be regarded as 'transcended' or 'perverted'. He just uses piles of >Stravinsky in his orchestrations. > >Stravinsky might be the winner here: it should be very easy to find further >examples of mediocre composers doing the rhythmic thing Stravinsky refined, >or the use of wind instruments in small orchestras. > >btw saxophone player Joshua Redman got stuck at the 'c' in his >alphabetically ordered jazz record collection. His cd 'Beyond' doesn't even >try to go beyond Coltrane. Redman became *so* Coltrane, it's almost scary. >And useless. > >Regards, Remco Takken Chris Selvig - - ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 06 Feb 2002 20:34:03 +0000 From: "Kurt Gottschalk" Subject: downtown related items on ebay sorry for the ad. i have a couple items that might be of interest up on ebay. 'out of their mouths M2K' item#1511504554 double disc post-punk comp on atavistic from 1996, w/teenage jesus and the jerks, crescent, mars, chrome cranks, the scissor girls, the dream syndicate, eleventh dream day, wynn/rizzo/bean/gay, tigerlilies, wolverton brothers, mx-80, antimuro, theoretical girls, lydia lunch, e.a.r., blastula, wharton tiers, glenn branca, lydia lunch, thurston moore, elliott sharp's carbon, bruce anderson, gerry miles & alan licht, the vnadermark five, raeo, nrg ensemble, gordy horn infusion, lee ranaldo. full color front and back art show only slight wear. discs in perfect condition sean lennon - half horse, half musician item #1511449961 promo-only 7-song cd by sean lennon, includes 2 remixes from 'into the sun.' full color front and back art. tracks are: queue (radio mix), spaceship (radio mix), dream, heart & lung (texas motel version), 5/8, pyramid, happiness (on the bus version). produced by sean and cibo matto's yuka honda. w/mito hatori, john medeski, timo ellis, greg ribot, smokey hormel, duma love, japa keenan, kenny wollensen, brad jones, ej rodriguez, kenny wollensen. _________________________________________________________________ Chat with friends online, try MSN Messenger: http://messenger.msn.com - - ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 06 Feb 2002 13:20:02 -0800 From: "John Schuller" Subject: Old School 1994. http://expage.com/mypageistoogay _________________________________________________________________ Send and receive Hotmail on your mobile device: http://mobile.msn.com - - ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 06 Feb 2002 16:22:26 -0500 From: "Alan Kayser" Subject: Zorn as Miles???????? Marcin wrote "You are IMO wrong. JZ plays the role now Miles played in the 60's an early '70s. He organizes musicians, finds the, shows somehow the way. Many leading musicians (see douglas and frisell, for example) have been influenced by him very strongly. We'd have had loads of good musicians - ornette, ayler, dolphy - had Miles not been there, but he was surely central. FWIW, I can hardly anyone else producieng piececes that would be comparable in importance with godard, spillane, troture garden, or absinthe." Uh, oh. I hope you aren't serious here. I like what JZ has done, and take nothing away from what he has accomplished. But...First, Frisell, as with many of the musicians associated with JZ, was around for quite some time before falling in with NC. He certainly didn't "find" Frisell, as say Miles found 17 year old Tony Williams. I don't hear the musical influence on Douglas, Frisell, as say Miles had on Weather Report, Lifetime, Mahavishnu, and countless others. JZ has thrown many projects against the wall, some hit, some miss. Miles concentrated only on his own projects, rarely if ever getting involved in anything else. Just being around Miles seemed to inspire his sidemen. I recently read that Sonny Sharrock, though he only spent one day with Miles in the studio, was profoundly influenced by the experience. He said that Miles never really communicated in verbal terms exactly what he wanted. Yet he had a way of touching each musician. Dave Holland said he learned more about music riding in the car with Miles after flying in from the UK than he had ever known before. Miles had an uncanny knack for choosing the right people for his music, and the right music for his people. Is there among JZ people a Coltrane, Shorter, Corea, Hancock, Carter, McLaughlin, DeJohnette, Jarrett, etc etc? From his early days with Parker until (IMHO) about 1973 Miles produced one masterwork after another, most of which have stood the test of time. I don't think we've yet gotten or can expect a Kind of Blue, Bitches Brew, Silent Way, Sketches of Spain, Milestones or anything close out of JZ, but who's looking. As far as finding and organizing, how about Uri Caine and Bobby Previte, to name two. They have both produced very diversified projects utilizing many of the same musicians as JZ. And again IMHO, both have produced music every bit as important as JZ. Neither has achieved the "cult" status that JZ seems to have at this point. This is not meant to compare or take anything away from JZ. Just think the Miles comparison is a bit off. Alan Kayser _________________________________________________________________ Send and receive Hotmail on your mobile device: http://mobile.msn.com - - ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 6 Feb 2002 22:44:01 +0100 From: "Remco Takken" Subject: Re: Tori Amos, indeed: Highbrow ripp-offs > OK, I'm going to get in trouble for this, but I'm going to stick my > digital foot in my virtual mouth and ask: is jazz a dead language at this > point, or can we really look forward to major formal innovations in the > future? Of course it's hard to predict if or when someone will invent the > next dead horse, but even the hot young players aren't really doing much > that would have been new in 1982, much less now. The lines between I have the fear that most of the really important innovations from appr 1970 on, appear in almost total and complete obscurity. Also, don't let yourself become impressed by all the re-writing of jazz history. Who wants to remember that most of the early repertoire of Duke ellington's band consisted of waltzes? There are no records of this (it is no jazz), but this big band would have been out of work within the year, if they only played the stuff that we now see shine so clearly. Times were blurred then, too, just like they are now. Joshua Redman, James Carter and other 'superstars' (that aren't known in the way Dizzy or Louis or Miles were known) just aren't the guys to check out right now. I try to stay away of screaming out who's the greatest in this present time, but i dont' think it was that clear in, say, 1959. Maybe Prestige, Blue Note, Riverside were what Between the Lines, TryTone, Tzadik and Erstwhile are now. Remember, there were many days Coltrane played for 15 people, even (and especially) in the sixties. Jazzmammoth bassplayer Ray Brown (now 75) once put it like this: Jazz has always been this big. Media attention wasn't that great in the old days. If you try to generalise modern jazz by reducing it to Joshua Redman and James Carter in order to make a point, you will lose your point just as easy by overlooking the niches where great art always have been created. Herbie Nichols, and even Thelonious Monk weren't that big back in their golden days. Regards, Remco - - ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 6 Feb 2002 13:35:04 -0800 (PST) From: jason tors Subject: cibo matto recs hello, I am interested in exploring the various works of cibo matto, any suggestions for the essential[s]? you can respond privately or to the list if you feel its valid. J __________________________________________________ Do You Yahoo!? Send FREE Valentine eCards with Yahoo! Greetings! http://greetings.yahoo.com - - ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 06 Feb 2002 14:05:43 -0800 From: crymad Subject: Re: Independent Groups "Matthew W Wirzbicki (S)" wrote: > This > school payed $10,000 for a Dick Hyman (yes that's his name) solo concert. > (He was involved in the sdtk for Woody Allen's RADIODAYS -- I think....) Dick Hyman also released two of the earliest moog albums, THE ELECTRIC ECLECTICS OF DICK HYMAN and MOOG PIECES. Some that music was quite adventurous for the time. In fact, it would probably even make most modern-day shoppers a little uneasy if played in today's supermarkets. - --crymad - - ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 6 Feb 2002 08:32:12 +0100 From: =?iso-8859-1?Q?Efr=E9n_del_Valle?= Subject: Re: Zorn as Miles???????? Hi, Alan wrote: Is there among JZ people a Coltrane, Shorter, Corea, Hancock, > Carter, McLaughlin, DeJohnette, Jarrett, etc etc? From his early days with > Parker until (IMHO) about 1973 Miles produced one masterwork after another, > most of which have stood the test of time. Maybe not a Coltrane, but certainly JZ has gathered a superb group of collaborators around him: Frith, Ribot, Baron, Rothenberg, A. Coleman, Douglas, Cohen, ... and the list could go on forever. I think the skills of these musicians are undeniable (either you like them or not). If we add to that the fact that some of them are also superb composers, I think your statement is a bit too Miles-friendly or perhaps nostalgic. I don't think we've yet gotten > or can expect a Kind of Blue, Bitches Brew, Silent Way, Sketches of Spain, > Milestones or anything close out of JZ, but who's looking. We haven't? It depends on your personal taste, but "Spillane" or "Elegy" mean much more to me than any of the records you mention. I understand they are important for many people, and going against Miles has "come rather expensive" to me, so to speak. Maybe my age prevents me from enjoying those titles in all their supposed immensity, but IMHO, Miles had his time, and now's the time for something else. Of course, I don't expect anyone of any future generations to produce another "Spillane", because it's supposed to be unique. And, of course, I also look back when purchasing or just listening to music, but your comments seem to me a little "anchored in the past" . As far as > finding and organizing, how about Uri Caine and Bobby Previte, to name two. > They have both produced very diversified projects utilizing many of the same > musicians as JZ. And again IMHO, both have produced music every bit as > important as JZ. I don't know about Uri Caine, because I haven't heard too many of his works, but putting Previte at the same level as Zorn seems quite exaggerated. Maybe I missed something, but I find him just a great drummer with a immediately-recognizable sound. However I have strong doubts about his compositional competence. Neither has achieved the "cult" status that JZ seems to > have at this point. This is not meant to compare or take anything away from > JZ. Just think the Miles comparison is a bit off. > Alan Kayser Sure, Alan, absolutely off!!. Just an opinion. Best, Efrén del Valle n.p: Susie Ibarra Trio "Songbird Suite" (Tzadik) _________________________________________________________ Do You Yahoo!? Get your free @yahoo.com address at http://mail.yahoo.com - - ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 6 Feb 2002 18:42:17 -0400 From: mwoodwor Subject: manchester with previte hey - I will be in Manchester from Feb 14-21 - anyone know of any good concerts/things going on during this time? Also, I'm enjoying the new Bobby Previte on Tzadik ssooooooooo much, but have heard luke-warm reviews for his other new album on Palmetto with the 'Bump the Renisance' group. This surprises me, first because I've loved almost all of his albums and because the original bump the renisance album (and group) as well as his other early release 'pushing the envelope' were both so fantastic. Can any one on the list comment about the new one? Finally, I'm pretty sure I've spelt renisance wronge but I'm too lasy to shuffle over to my CD rack and check on correct spelling................ w. - - ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 06 Feb 2002 15:03:22 -0800 From: Skip Heller Subject: the new miles's More in jazz than in any other genre, it seems that there's a need to feel that the phaseology of jazz is a repeating timeline, so that certain figures may be called the new Tranne, the new Bird, whatever. It does no justice to anyone. Calling Ornette Coleman the "new Bird" did no service, because the two guys emerged on their respective scenes each with such different equipment than the other, and the effect Bird had was more to convert already-active players to a new pallette that organically extended the old one, whereas the effect Ornette seemed more to be to establish a different community of players as a means to break clean from the old pallette. But many people wrote that Ornette Coleman was the new Bird, which served mostly to draw battle lines between those who embraced Ornette and those who dismissed him. There are a great many things Zorn and Miles Davis share in common. While Miles did not "discover" Cannonball Adderley or Bill Evans for instance, they did go through his group and were changed drastically for having done so. But Zorn's methods of leading groups, and even his manifest need to mount different ensembles for different bodies of work is unlike Miles. And those things are so much of what makes Zorn Zorn. (One could make a farily substantial argument for Don Byron Plays Mickey Katz as the 1990's analog to the 1960s Miles quintet, in terms of who came out of it and the relative importance of their subsequent work -- Dave Douglas, Uri Caine, John Roseman, Mark Feldman, and Mark Dresser.) The situations under which jazz is played, recorded, and presented have changed so drastically between 1961 and 1991 that the need to call someone "the [insert name] of the 1990's" is at best a slippery slope. And the same could be said of 1941 and 1961. Any strong leader who has a specific musical vision -- Miles, Mingus, Zorn, Prince, Raymond Scott, Zappa -- is going to share things in common with other strong musical leaders posessed of specific musical vision. But that doesn't mean that they mirror each other. skip h - - ------------------------------ End of Zorn List Digest V3 #754 ******************************* To unsubscribe from zorn-list-digest, send an email to "majordomo@lists.xmission.com" with "unsubscribe zorn-list-digest" in the body of the message. For information on digests or retrieving files and old messages send "help" to the same address. Do not use quotes in your message. A non-digest (direct mail) version of this list is also available; to subscribe to that instead, replace all instances of "zorn-list-digest" in the commands above with "zorn-list". Back issues are available for anonymous FTP from ftp.xmission.com, in pub/lists/zorn-list/archive. These are organized by date. Problems? Email the list owner at zorn-list-owner@lists.xmission.com