From: owner-zorn-list-digest@lists.xmission.com (Zorn List Digest) To: zorn-list-digest@lists.xmission.com Subject: Zorn List Digest V3 #832 Reply-To: zorn-list Sender: owner-zorn-list-digest@lists.xmission.com Errors-To: owner-zorn-list-digest@lists.xmission.com Precedence: bulk Zorn List Digest Thursday, March 21 2002 Volume 03 : Number 832 In this issue: - Re: ornette reissues on blue note and Japanese Independent Music--book dr. octagon. Re: The origins of musique concrete Re: Hip Hop kato hideki+nuno rebelo + marco F. in UK Fwd: Re: Hip Hop Sean Lennon/Cibo Matto Re: Sean Lennon/Cibo Matto re: straight outta... Re: explanation for a child Re: explanation for a child Re: hip Hop Fwd: How Come? Re: Fwd: How Come? Dave Douglas with strings Fwd: Dave Douglas with strings Curlew = the Paradox and Arcada trios. ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Date: Wed, 20 Mar 2002 21:35:03 -0600 From: "Sanchez" Subject: Re: ornette reissues on blue note and Japanese Independent Music--book From: "William York" > has anyone heard the new/recent RVG-series reissues of the ornette trio's > golden circle discs on blue note? if so, any commentary on the bonus > material, improvement in sound quality, etc.? > Just thought I'd de-lurk to offer my opinion on two things. First, the Ornette re-issues. The re-mastering on both discs is a revelation - leaves the old CDs sounding flat and lifeless. There are five unissued takes and one new piece appended to the discs so that each one is approx. 35 min. longer than the previous issue. With new liner notes from John Litweiler and a $9.99 price, I'd say they're well worth picking up. ..and while I'm here: as for the shortcomings of the Japanese Independent Music book, while the essays and interviews are good - and the CD is great - the discographies leave a lot to be desired. Labels get mixed up with distributors quite a bit (don't think the Boredoms have any releases on Black Saint as listed in their discog - not that that wouldn't be a good idea), accuracy of cat. #'s is hit-and-miss, and most of the discographies have the feel of being moused up rather than researched. And personally, I'm not completely on board with the editorial stance. I think the entry for Cornelius goes something like: "Cornelius sucks. Now here's a discography of 50+ listings from his website." But, again, overall the book is worth the scratch, just not worth your best money, like the Ornette re-issues. - -Sanchez nw: Profondo Rosso (1975) d. Argento - - ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 21 Mar 2002 01:33:14 EST From: UFOrbK8@aol.com Subject: dr. octagon. In a message dated 03.20.02 15.48.37, soulfrieda@hotmail.com writes: >Dr. Octagon (Kool Keith) will someone tell me more about this dr. octagon album? i've read maybe twenty reviews of this album and everyone seems to widely respect / like / dig / whatever it, but i know nothing about it... love, k8. - --- [.n0thing.is.what.is.sAid.] k a t e p e t e r s o n c o m p o s e r / p e r f o r m e r http://www.geocities.com/uforbk8/kate.html http://www.icefoundation.org (roundtable) - - ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 21 Mar 2002 08:33:26 +0100 From: francko.lamerikx@philips.com Subject: Re: The origins of musique concrete > Musique Concrete was created by Pierre Schaeffer in the late forties (quickly > joined by Pierre Henry with whom he made the masterpiece of the genre: > SYMPHONIE POUR UN HOMME SEUL). The idea was to make music with sounds > usually not considered as musical. Basically sounds made by objects associated > to all human activities. It could the noise of a squeaky door, the noises from > steam machines, etc. Schaeffer gathered all the theoretical foundations of his > baby in the awesome T.O.M. (TRAITE DES OBJETS MUSICAUX). In its purest form, > the music was not supposed to use sounds prooduced by electronic equipements, > although these were heavily used for processing (including the weird machine > to slow/speed sounds without changing the pitches!). You also need to know that > Schaeffer was quite desilusioned with the whole idea by the end of his life. > In the early fifties, every modern European composers had created his piece > of music concrete. Very few are unfortunately available (Boulez, for example, > erased it from his catalog). Pierre Schaeffer is always mentioned as the one who first came up with the idea of musique concrete, but I believe the origin of the genre can be traced at least as far back as Walter Rutman, who used the sound-track of pieces of celluloid to record "non-musical sounds" as far back as 1928. There is a 3" CD in Metamkine's "Cinema d'oreil" series called "Weekend" documenting this. - - ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 21 Mar 2002 08:45:47 From: "William York" Subject: Re: Hip Hop >death metal didn't start with morbid angel nor suffocation. i am >sorry. i >know you didn't have time to explain yourself, but i just >couldn't let >anyone say that morbid angel originated anything as >important as this. I'm sorry if there was a misunderstanding, but if you reread what I wrote you will see that I didn't claim that they originated the genre. I was merely pointing them out as two of the better examples of death metal that, depending on how you look at it, could be viewed as a type of American (hence no mention of ND) avant-garde music from that era. (No hard feelings, of course ...) And yes I have the early Napalm Death stuff ... (My favorite from that era is the Peel Sessions stuff, though, not the studio recs.) I agree, the pure energy/sound aspect of the ND stuff is amazing. I was mentioning Suffocation and MA more based on how out the songwriting was. Take care, WY _________________________________________________________________ Get your FREE download of MSN Explorer at http://explorer.msn.com/intl.asp. - - ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 21 Mar 2002 09:15:11 +0000 From: "Ricardo Jorge" Subject: kato hideki+nuno rebelo + marco F. in UK Nuno Rebelo + Kato Hideki + Marco Franco U.K. Tour May / June 2002 After the gig at Atlantic Waves / London Jazz Festival, the trio was invited by Music Stuff - Tour production for a tour of about 10 concerts in England. More info about the venues and dates as soon as it's set. NR - guitar, KH - bass, MF - drums. _________________________________________________________________ O MSN Photos é o jeito mais fácil de compartilhar, editar e imprimir suas fotos preferidas: http://photos.msn.com.br/support/worldwide.aspx - - ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 21 Mar 2002 10:21:01 +0100 (CET) From: =?iso-8859-1?q?Efr=E9n=20del=20Valle?= Subject: Fwd: Re: Hip Hop Mike wrote: anyone who doesn't own > ND's first two albums > (scum, and from enslavement to obliteration) they > are still to this day the > most extreme death metal recordings ever made based > on pure raw energy. > nothing has come close to capturing the intensity > and extremity before or > since). Carcass' first album DID capture "intensity and extremity" at that level, IMHO. It's one of the most brutal records I've ever heard. Unfortunately, they seem to have softened in subsequent releases. Best, Efrén del Valle n.p: Bob Dylan "Blonde on Blonde" _______________________________________________________________ Do You Yahoo!? Yahoo! Messenger Comunicación instantánea gratis con tu gente. http://messenger.yahoo.es - - ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 21 Mar 2002 10:43:19 +0100 (CET) From: =?iso-8859-1?q?Efr=E9n=20del=20Valle?= Subject: Sean Lennon/Cibo Matto Hi, I'd like to know your thoughts on Sean Lennon's "Into the Sun" and Cibo Matto's "Viva La Woman". From the former I've read anything but good reviews here but I'm still curious. Also, did anyone have a chance to hear the Yuka Honda's release on Tzadik? I'm always asking... Thanks in advance. Best, Efrén del Valle _______________________________________________________________ Do You Yahoo!? Yahoo! Messenger Comunicación instantánea gratis con tu gente. http://messenger.yahoo.es - - ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 21 Mar 2002 10:10:54 +0000 From: "Arthur Gadney" Subject: Re: Sean Lennon/Cibo Matto Hello. >I'd like to know your thoughts on Sean Lennon's "Into >the Sun" Well, it's kind of a pop thing... Nothing too special. I wouldn't pay more than $5 for it; >and Cibo Matto's "Viva La Woman". This I really love. My first impresion was rather bad, actually, but now I think it's one of the best pop albums of the last ten years. Cute and creative. (Note: avoid their next album "Stereotype A". It's very bad, except for one song called "Spoon" which is perfect and features Dave Douglas, Marc Ribot and all the others...) Buy buy. NP: Can: "Tago Mago" NR: http://www.veteransforpeace.com/ _________________________________________________________________ Join the world’s largest e-mail service with MSN Hotmail. http://www.hotmail.com - - ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 21 Mar 2002 05:17:42 -0500 (EST) From: Taylor McLaren Subject: re: straight outta... skip heller wrote: > The often wished-for Next Beatles turned out to be Run DMC. > Not only did their music connect big, but anything advertised > at young people from 1987 on had some sort of hip-hop quotient > attatched to it. And the musical/sonic intensity of it -- > and the aggression of its message -- only got nastier. yeah, > you had some rap lite, but groups like PE were outselling it > over time. I know this going right off on a tangent now, since the original question was about the influences behind the early stuff (I think), but I think it's funny that (1) Run-DMC had to cover an Aerosmith song before commercial radio would even consider playing this weirdo brand of music (remember, this was around the same time that MTV wouldn't play Michael Jackson's videos because he was black... er... um... because of their "objectionable content", yeah, that's right...), and (2) most of the "rap lite" stuff in today's market is easily outselling PE and all of the classics by virtue of its violent, nasty appeal. A quick look at the RIAA site and its gold/platinum certification lists shows that PE hasn't exactly torn up the charts since "Apocalypse '91", which went platinum in the year of its release. ("Fear of a Black Planet" did the same sort of business; "Nation of Millions" took the better part of a year to go platinum.) Sure, "Muse-Sick-n-Hour-Mess-Age" has gone gold, but I don't even see "There's a Poison Goin' On" listed... who knows if this has anything to do with how it was released or not, but still... Meanwhile, offerings from the likes of Busta Rhymes, Maxwell, and even $@&#ing Jennifer Lopez have gone platinum or multi-platinum in the space of a couple of months, judging from recent entries to the bestsellers lists. In terms of their influence on anything contemporary, sure, PE are right near the top of the list, but in terms of actual sales... well, you're looking at a situation that a major label bean counter would consider only somewhat less dire than the one facing somebody like Marc Ribot or Don Byron, ie. you're into bloodletting territory these days. (Point of interest: De La Soul have only gone platinum once, with "3 Feet High and Rising", and "Straight Outta Compton" was actually certified multi-platinum in '92... interesting how the violent stuff does really well, isn't it? Even now, I'm amazed that people once considered Chuck D to be a violent person and not just incredibly pissed off with the state of the universe.) I'm probably going to look back on this when it shows up in the digest in a few hours' time and think that I'm babbling on to no real effect, so I'll shut up now. - -me ______________________________________________________________________ File your taxes online! http://taxes.yahoo.ca - - ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 21 Mar 2002 07:18:05 -0500 From: "Caleb T. Deupree" Subject: Re: explanation for a child At 09:26 AM 3/20/02 -0800, Patrice L. Roussel wrote: > >The idea of musique concrete, as a separate genre, did not last long since >after the creation of electronic music in 1953 in Koln by Herbert Heimer, both >genres quickly fused to become electroacoustic music (or acousmatic, if you >follow the French school). Although this statement is the conventional wisdom, the genre is alive and well. There are quite a few new cds that claim very legitimately to be musique concrete, including (among others) most of the Metamkine Cinema pour l'oreille and the empreintes digitales label in Canada. Ralf Wehowsky and Kevin Drumm's recent release says 'musique concrete realized in Chicago and Mainz' in great big letters on the cover. - -- Caleb Deupree cdeupree@erinet.com - - ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 21 Mar 2002 09:17:35 -0500 From: Mike Chamberlain Subject: Re: explanation for a child on 3/21/02 7:18 AM, Caleb T. Deupree at cdeupree@erinet.com wrote: > At 09:26 AM 3/20/02 -0800, Patrice L. Roussel wrote: >> >> The idea of musique concrete, as a separate genre, did not last long since >> after the creation of electronic music in 1953 in Koln by Herbert Heimer, > both >> genres quickly fused to become electroacoustic music (or acousmatic, if you >> follow the French school). > > Although this statement is the conventional wisdom, the genre is alive and > well. There are quite a few new cds that claim very legitimately to be > musique concrete, including (among others) most of the Metamkine Cinema > pour l'oreille and the empreintes digitales label in Canada. As for the empreintes digitales material, while musique concrete is definitely a significant part of many recordings, I think it would more properly be labeled electroacoustic according to the definition above. Indeed, the press material and liner notes generally refer to the music as electroacoustic, FWIW. I'm not that big on labels, I just found your point interesting in light of the way that empreintes digitales produces their albums. The packaging is excellent, if ultimately a bit fragile. - --Mike - - ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 21 Mar 2002 08:25:06 -0600 (CST) From: James Miller Subject: Re: hip Hop Zorn people: First, thanks for the interesting responses to my questions about hip hop. It's interesting that the discussion has focused on hip hop as something "totally new" or "revolutionary." While I don't necessarily disagree with that argument, my original question had more to do with locating links, secret histories, trajectories of influence. I was thinking of things like the following (which may or may not be accurate, that's why I asked): Hip hop's links to disco, dance culture of the 70s-- club culture, etc. The Last Poets Reggae, dub and stdio technology (Big Youth, etc) Amiri Baraka, Black Arts, etc Oneness of Juju, other 60s-70s collectives (if they exist?) obviously, funk and soul culture That sort of thing. Are these genuine links, and has anyone researched them? I don't want to make claims for the music yet, I just want to grasp how it fits into the cultural/historical matrix, so to speak. Thanks again, Andy - - ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 21 Mar 2002 09:02:52 -0600 From: Moudry Subject: Fwd: How Come? >X-Originating-IP: [67.40.17.209] >From: "john schuller" >To: zorn-list@lists.xmission.com >Subject: How Come? >Date: Tue, 19 Mar 2002 17:43:31 -0800 >X-OriginalArrivalTime: 20 Mar 2002 01:43:31.0403 (UTC) >FILETIME=[A3E5E1B0:01C1CFB0] >Sender: owner-zorn-list@lists.xmission.com >Status: > >How come Zorn has categories in the Tzadik catalog that are >race/religion/gender based? I can understand the Composer >series/Film Series/Key Series...but what gives with the >Jewish/Woman/Asian series? > >Curious, >John Schuller > In a word: minorities, in that they are series for those who are not male, Western European, and with other attributes of the Old Boy Network. And more power to Zorn for doing these series: the more diverse of offerings, the better a chance I have of being knocked out by something that would never be had from Sony/Time-Wqwrner/EMI and the other bean-counter dominated labels. Saturnally, - -- Joe Moudry Office of Academic Computing & Technology School of Education, UAB Master of Saturn Web (Sun Ra, the Arkestra & Free Jazz); Producer/Host of Classic Jazz & Creative Improv on Alabama Public Radio - - ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 21 Mar 2002 15:23:23 +0000 From: "Arthur Gadney" Subject: Re: Fwd: How Come? Hello. >>How come Zorn has categories in the Tzadik catalog that are >>race/religion/gender based? Why not?? >>I can understand the Composer >>series/Film Series/Key Series...but what gives with the >>Jewish/Woman/Asian series? Yes, composers are fine, but women, jews and asians have no place in music ;-) I must say I don't care much for Zorn labelling of the stuff; I just buy whatever I like and that's it. I would, however, like to see A LOT more releases in the women's series! Cheers, NP: Massacre: "Meltdown" NR: "The Trial Of Henry Kissinger" by Christopher Hitchens _________________________________________________________________ Get your FREE download of MSN Explorer at http://explorer.msn.com/intl.asp. - - ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 21 Mar 2002 15:56:46 +0000 From: "Arthur Gadney" Subject: Dave Douglas with strings "Parallel Worlds" or "Five"???? Thanks. _________________________________________________________________ Chat with friends online, try MSN Messenger: http://messenger.msn.com - - ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 21 Mar 2002 17:10:58 +0100 (CET) From: =?iso-8859-1?q?Efr=E9n=20del=20Valle?= Subject: Fwd: Dave Douglas with strings "Parallel Worlds" or "Five"???? > > Thanks. "Five"!!!!! The most important Spanish jazz magazine even included it among the best 10 or 20 records of the last decade- this is obviously not a guarantee but somehow shows how welcome it was when released. I like it quite a lot, much more than "Parallel Words". I have no specific reasons to recommend it to you. Just a good album with great performers and fine compositions (which is a lot, isn't it?). Best, Efrén del Valle _______________________________________________________________ Do You Yahoo!? Yahoo! Messenger Comunicación instantánea gratis con tu gente. http://messenger.yahoo.es - - ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 21 Mar 2002 16:17:51 +0000 From: "Arthur Gadney" Subject: Curlew = the Paradox and Arcada trios. Hello again guys. 1) How many Arcada String Trio CDs are there? As of right now, I can only manage to track down the "Live In Europe" CD, but it's an import so rather expensive. Is it worth it?? 2) A also want to pick up a Curlew disc, and was thinking of either "A Beautiful Western Saddle" or "Bee", since I like Tom Cora. I understand that "A Beautiful..." is with vocals, so I think I should probably go for "Bee", since vocals rarely cut it in there parts. Seems like a good idea? Any recommendations for the Paradox Trio? I hear they are kind of related to Pachora, which I really like. Thanx. _________________________________________________________________ Send and receive Hotmail on your mobile device: http://mobile.msn.com - - ------------------------------ End of Zorn List Digest V3 #832 ******************************* To unsubscribe from zorn-list-digest, send an email to "majordomo@lists.xmission.com" with "unsubscribe zorn-list-digest" in the body of the message. For information on digests or retrieving files and old messages send "help" to the same address. Do not use quotes in your message. 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