From: owner-zorn-list-digest@lists.xmission.com (Zorn List Digest) To: zorn-list-digest@lists.xmission.com Subject: Zorn List Digest V3 #847 Reply-To: zorn-list Sender: owner-zorn-list-digest@lists.xmission.com Errors-To: owner-zorn-list-digest@lists.xmission.com Precedence: bulk Zorn List Digest Saturday, March 23 2002 Volume 03 : Number 847 In this issue: - RE: How Come? Re: How Come? Re: radical jewish culture and other favorite Z-list topics RE: How Come? Re: How Come? Re: How Come? Re: We Insist! Re: How Come? INSTANT POLL Re: Ooops!... Britney again! Re: How Come? Odp: Previte/Frith/Some Questions Joseph and John Recent message Re: flag-waving, packaging and martyrdom RE: radical jewish culture and other favorite Z-list topics Dumbing down America schuller and zitt Re: radical jewish culture and other favorite Z-list topics ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Date: Sat, 23 Mar 2002 01:23:41 -0500 From: "Zachary Steiner" Subject: RE: How Come? > And see if you can answer this with a yes or no. Can one choose their > religion? Simple as that. >> No, not simple as that. Simple in description, but not in practice. I'll grant you that much. Zach - - ------------------------------ Date: Sat, 23 Mar 2002 01:32:11 -0600 From: Joseph Zitt Subject: Re: How Come? On Fri, Mar 22, 2002 at 09:54:48PM -0800, john schuller wrote: > Yes it is. Either yes or no. Why do you fail to see this? I believe it > because you have nothing to back yourself up with. *sigh* Yes, you probably do believe this. And some people believe that the Earth is flat. - -- | jzitt@metatronpress.com http://www.metatronpress.com/jzitt | | New book: Surprise Me with Beauty: the Music of Human Systems | | http://www.metatronpress.com/nj/smwb.html | | Latest CDs: Collaborations/ All Souls http://www.mp3.com/josephzitt | | Comma: Voices of New Music Silence: the John Cage Discussion List | - - ------------------------------ Date: Sat, 23 Mar 2002 01:27:16 -0600 From: Joseph Zitt Subject: Re: radical jewish culture and other favorite Z-list topics On Sat, Mar 23, 2002 at 05:10:37AM +0000, Bill Ashline wrote: > I've never understood why some associate the radical jewish culture series > with the state of Israel or events in the Middle East, as if Jewishness is > reducible to Israel or "radical" is metonymically equivalent with violence. > This doesn't make any sense. "Radical" does not have that designation. It > means "getting to the roots of things." Someone once said that England and the US were two nations divided by a common language. I'm suspecting that this is even more true as English gets used elsewhere. It appears that, to some in Europe, the word "Radical" has rather different connotations than to Americans. That they insist that an artist stateside accept their use of the term, however, is akin to an American getting annoyed at the British use of the term "petrol" rather than "gasoline." I do recognize, however, that words grow meanings that often expand beyond, and have little to do with, their linguistic roots: few who use the word "cartoon" know or care that it apparently came from the Italian word for "pasteboard". (I certainly didn't, until I wondered about it for no particular reason about an hour ago.) > That was when the public intellectuals left urban centers, particularly > New York, and went to the campuses, where they could afford things like > housing after the high-cost revamping of urban dwellings. This has been > going on now for fifty years. Witness Lawrence Ferlinghetti's essay on > gentrification in San Francisco in a recent issue of Counter Punch.[...] See > Russell Jacoby's The Last Intellectuals for more details. I hadn't known this. I'll have to look into these references. Thanks. - -- | jzitt@metatronpress.com http://www.metatronpress.com/jzitt | | New book: Surprise Me with Beauty: the Music of Human Systems | | http://www.metatronpress.com/nj/smwb.html | | Latest CDs: Collaborations/ All Souls http://www.mp3.com/josephzitt | | Comma: Voices of New Music Silence: the John Cage Discussion List | - - ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 22 Mar 2002 23:33:13 -0800 From: "john schuller" Subject: RE: How Come? I was refering to the act of answering a yes or no question. >From: "Zachary Steiner" >To: "'Joseph Zitt'" , "'john schuller'" > >CC: >Subject: RE: How Come? >Date: Sat, 23 Mar 2002 01:23:41 -0500 > > > And see if you can answer this with a yes or no. Can one choose their > > religion? Simple as that. > > >> No, not simple as that. > >Simple in description, but not in practice. I'll grant you that much. > >Zach > >
 
_________________________________________________________________ MSN Photos is the easiest way to share and print your photos: http://photos.msn.com/support/worldwide.aspx - - ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 22 Mar 2002 23:47:29 -0800 From: "john schuller" Subject: Re: How Come? *sigh* Dodged it again. You are good at dodging questions when they are given to you. The reason you dodge the question is because you haven't the answer or you know your answer is full of holes. So instead it is much easier for you to walk around it. I think now, I am almost done with you. You continually deliver people questions in an attempt to show that you are superior in intellect and rational thought yet haven't the ability to answer these questions when given to you. Why is that? Why do you have the inability to answer a yes or no question? The question itself is very easy to answer with a yes or no. Feel free to take a stab at these again. You dodged each of them last time they were asked. "Mr. Zitt, if I understand you correctly what you are saying in the above statement is that one's religion is something that can be changed. I would then ask if one was to change their religion - would they be making a choice to do so? Would the act of one changing their religion or becoming an atheist come from choosing to do so? Do you see how your above statement proves that to be true? Would you also agree that one's identification with and practice of a religion is a lifestyle? If not, why? Can you also see that if one then chooses to be either Mormon, Jehovah's Witness, Buddhist or Catholic they are also choosing a style of life that goes hand in hand?" And I hope you remember what I mean by style. I use style as in the way in which something is done. And I use lifestyle as a way of life or style of living that reflects the attitudes and values of a person or group. >From: Joseph Zitt >To: john schuller >CC: zorn-list@lists.xmission.com >Subject: Re: How Come? >Date: Sat, 23 Mar 2002 01:32:11 -0600 > >On Fri, Mar 22, 2002 at 09:54:48PM -0800, john schuller wrote: > > > Yes it is. Either yes or no. Why do you fail to see this? I believe it > > because you have nothing to back yourself up with. > >*sigh* > >Yes, you probably do believe this. And some people believe that the >Earth is flat. > >-- >| jzitt@metatronpress.com http://www.metatronpress.com/jzitt | >| New book: Surprise Me with Beauty: the Music of Human Systems | >| http://www.metatronpress.com/nj/smwb.html | >| Latest CDs: Collaborations/ All Souls http://www.mp3.com/josephzitt | >| Comma: Voices of New Music Silence: the John Cage Discussion List |
 
_________________________________________________________________ MSN Photos is the easiest way to share and print your photos: http://photos.msn.com/support/worldwide.aspx - - ------------------------------ Date: Sat, 23 Mar 2002 02:43:20 -0600 From: Joseph Zitt Subject: Re: How Come? On Fri, Mar 22, 2002 at 11:47:29PM -0800, john schuller wrote: > Why do you have the > inability to answer a yes or no question? The question itself is very easy > to answer with a yes or no. John, answer this first with a simple yes or no: Have you stopped beating your wife? - -- | jzitt@metatronpress.com http://www.metatronpress.com/jzitt | | New book: Surprise Me with Beauty: the Music of Human Systems | | http://www.metatronpress.com/nj/smwb.html | | Latest CDs: Collaborations/ All Souls http://www.mp3.com/josephzitt | | Comma: Voices of New Music Silence: the John Cage Discussion List | - - ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 22 Mar 2002 23:54:19 -0800 From: florid oratory Subject: Re: We Insist! zach, i suggest you enhance your listening pleasure with two other Crucial albums from the same ferment: "Percussion Bittersuite" by Max Roach, on Impulse and "Straight Ahead" by Abbey Lincoln, on Candid > From: "Zachary Steiner" > Subject: We Insist! Freedom Now Suite > > I asked a couple of weeks about this album and where I could find it. I > found it on CD at the Candid Records website and it was pretty > reasonable, even to ship from England. Thanks for every one who helped > me figure out the name of this album. > > Zach > - - ------------------------------ Date: Sat, 23 Mar 2002 00:48:01 -0800 From: Jim Flannery Subject: Re: How Come? INSTANT POLL If this thread had a soundtrack, would it be ... a) Cale/Riley, "The Hall of Mirrors in the Temple of Versailles" b) Country Joe & the Fish, "Here We Go Again" c) Flipper, "Brainwash" - -- - ------------------------------------------------------------------------ Jim Flannery newgrange@sfo.com "Unexamined assumptions and axioms can be collected the way one might collect stamps." -- James Elkins np: Radulovich/Fernandes, _The Whisper Chipper_ nr: John Lanchester, _The Debt to Pleasure_ - - ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 22 Mar 2002 19:02:53 +0100 From: =?iso-8859-1?Q?Efr=E9n_del_Valle?= Subject: Re: Ooops!... Britney again! HI, the underground filmmaker is generally struggling hard for the right to be a Hollywood puppet. You think these guys like making movies on a budget that is slightly less than what the trailer for a Spielberg movie costs? skip h Of course, not. I've been working in cinema for almost two years, basically with American companies and I've seen many things. For instance, I've read dozens of awful screenplays that hit the theatres while others that are really worth the attention are lying on a shelf and their authors looking for bar tending jobs. That means that a fat cat seizes the opportunity of making a whole new thing (generally commercial garbage) out of your original story because he/she knows that you're serving drinks and your future expectations are not too attractive. This happened to a NYC guy I know not so long ago. I don't know what I'd do in such a situation. Unfortunately (or fortunately) I'm working for the BAD ones. ;-) Best, Efrén del Valle n.p: Yuka Honda "Memories Are My Only Witness" (tzadik) - - _________________________________________________________ Do You Yahoo!? Get your free @yahoo.com address at http://mail.yahoo.com - - ------------------------------ Date: Sat, 23 Mar 2002 01:12:04 -0800 From: "john schuller" Subject: Re: How Come? To compare the two questions side by side--- Can one choose their religion? and Have you stopped beating your wife? The first question can be answered at anytime by one who has the ability to make a decision. (it does not even include the words "you" or "I") The only requirements are that someone is able to make a decision (not in a vegetable state) and that there is more than one religion or lack thereof to choose from. The question can be answered with a yes or no. To answer the second question with a yes or no would require that I have a wife and that I had or am presently beating my wife. Since I do not have a wife the answer cannot come out as yes or no. The first question "Can one choose their religion" can. Try again. I have a lot of time this weekend. >From: Joseph Zitt >To: john schuller >CC: zorn-list@lists.xmission.com >Subject: Re: How Come? >Date: Sat, 23 Mar 2002 02:43:20 -0600 > >On Fri, Mar 22, 2002 at 11:47:29PM -0800, john schuller wrote: > > Why do you have the > > inability to answer a yes or no question? The question itself is very >easy > > to answer with a yes or no. > >John, answer this first with a simple yes or no: Have you stopped >beating your wife? > >-- >| jzitt@metatronpress.com http://www.metatronpress.com/jzitt | >| New book: Surprise Me with Beauty: the Music of Human Systems | >| http://www.metatronpress.com/nj/smwb.html | >| Latest CDs: Collaborations/ All Souls http://www.mp3.com/josephzitt | >| Comma: Voices of New Music Silence: the John Cage Discussion List | >
 
_________________________________________________________________ MSN Photos is the easiest way to share and print your photos: http://photos.msn.com/support/worldwide.aspx - - ------------------------------ Date: Sat, 23 Mar 2002 10:44:29 +0100 From: "Marcin Gokieli" Subject: Odp: Previte/Frith/Some Questions - ----- Original Message ----- From: Patrice L. Roussel > You mean SLAY THE SUITORS? That's strange, because it is usually fairly down > the list of top Previte records. IMHO, not to the level of excitement of the > Gramavision/Enja material. If slay the suitors is by empty suitsm then its enja counterpart, titled empty suits, isn't the best thisng he's done neither. I think that the firsyt two 'weather clear...' cds were his peak. But i'm looking forward tho hear 'miro'. Marcin - - ------------------------------ Date: Sat, 23 Mar 2002 11:23:46 -0000 From: "Iain Kitt" Subject: Joseph and John Am I the only person finding Joseph and John's exchanges are becoming increasingly tiresome? Please carry on guys if you want to but can you not do it off list? Iain - - ------------------------------ Date: Sat, 23 Mar 2002 11:29:35 -0000 From: "Iain Kitt" Subject: Recent message Whoops! It seems my last message requests you to acknowledge receipt. Please don't bother! My fault - I've just upgraded to IE6 and didn't realsie that feature was turned on. Iain - - ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 22 Mar 2002 20:01:32 -0500 From: Rich Williams Subject: Re: flag-waving, packaging and martyrdom > >Daniel Pearl was murdered by people who define themselves as >"radical muslims". I think you have it backwards. We (the west), define them as radicals, they consider themselves conservatives. - - ------------------------------ Date: Sat, 23 Mar 2002 12:03:04 -0500 From: "Steve Smith" Subject: RE: radical jewish culture and other favorite Z-list topics According to a Lewis Lapham essay in a recent issue of Harpers, it seems to me that most public intellectuals now view it as their sole remaining option/duty to go off and hold tony, erudite gatherings at which to complain to one another that no one else listens to them anymore. The average American most likely thinks Charlie Rose is an intellectual. Certainly Terry Gross, if they get that far towards the left of the dial. Steve Smith ssmith36@sprynet.com NP - Wagner, 'Tannhauser' - Staatskapelle Berlin/Barenboim (Teldec) - -----Original Message----- From: owner-zorn-list@lists.xmission.com [mailto:owner-zorn-list@lists.xmission.com]On Behalf Of Bill Ashline I think it was Skip who said something about the political task of intellectuals in the states. It should be born in mind that the role of public intellectuals in America has declined considerably since the fifties. - - ------------------------------ Date: Sat, 23 Mar 2002 09:27:56 -0800 From: Tosh Subject: Dumbing down America >Sadly this is true! I think it's more of a cultural shift than >anything else. Also I think the media (whoever they are) sort of >sells the idea of the stupid consumer - consuming for the sake of >consuming. Also if one looks at your local bookstore chain - there >are more books regarding your wealth, your health, your looks, your >blah blah - very rarely are there books dealing looking outward. Since the 9/11 incident, there have been a slew of books about other cultures - but I think the nature of America (I can't speak for other cultures) is to look inward and reflect on their image. & seriously I think the best commentary I have read has been on this list. It maybe impossible to seperate politics & culture from music listening. Especially on this list which is one big adventure trip to the unknown ...which is why I love it! > >I think it was Skip who said something about the political task of >intellectuals in the states. It should be born in mind that the role of >public intellectuals in America has declined considerably since the fifties. > > >- - -- Tosh Berman TamTam Books http://www.tamtambooks.com - - ------------------------------ Date: Sat, 23 Mar 2002 13:45:06 -0400 From: mwoodwor Subject: schuller and zitt Hey Schuller and Zitt (or whatever your names are) PLEASE start sending your debate privately between yourselves - I'm sick of scrolling down through all of your emails, it's actually starting to hurt my eyes. Better yet stop emailing altogether and go and purchase Raymond Scott's - -Soothing SOunds for Baby (better make it volume 1), and listen to it on repeat for at least 5 hours, that should take the fight out of ya........ Mike - - ------------------------------ Date: Sat, 23 Mar 2002 09:59:12 -0800 From: skip Heller Subject: Re: radical jewish culture and other favorite Z-list topics on 3/23/02 9:03 AM, Steve Smith at ssmith36@sprynet.com wrote: > According to a Lewis Lapham essay in a recent issue of Harpers, it seems to > me that most public intellectuals now view it as their sole remaining > option/duty to go off and hold tony, erudite gatherings at which to complain > to one another that no one else listens to them anymore. > > The average American most likely thinks Charlie Rose is an intellectual. > Certainly Terry Gross, if they get that far towards the left of the dial. > You often hear about the death of intellectualism in America, as if it's a major event with a tangiable expiration date. As for what I've witnessed, Lapham is right, although he left out that, as long as you are serving free white wine, you will likely attract at least two of these beasts. - - > From: owner-zorn-list@lists.xmission.com > [mailto:owner-zorn-list@lists.xmission.com]On Behalf Of Bill Ashline > > I think it was Skip who said something about the political task of > intellectuals in the states. It should be born in mind that the role of > public intellectuals in America has declined considerably since the fifties. > So far as I can make of it, the public task of intellectuals has never been the most exhaustive. The one truly intellectual guy who ran for president in the last sixty years (Stevenson) proved to be a great guy but an ineffectual public figure, compared to, say, Ross Perot -- who by his very crackpotdom managed to actually raise public awareness of certain kinds of issues. This, to me, was the sign of an effective public figure -- no way in life was he gonna win, but he sure brought some shit to the party. Ocaasionally you need a lunatic in there, shaking things up and rasing questions. Fr a moment, he was the Jackson Pollack between two Norman Rockwell's. Woody Allen, during his mortality soliliquy in HANNAH AND HER SISTERS, said (paraphrasing like mad), "All these great minds and, in the end, none of them has any more answers than I do". It's true -- you can read all the books you want on philsophy, religion etc, but it's all speculation in the end. That a lot of educated people who have read the endless speculation does not make their opinions worthier or more important than those of Americans who drive busses. There was a time in American history where intellectuals were celebrated for their intellectualness (espec in the atomic-age 50s, when TV latched onto these guys as technological purveyors of the better life just before us in the future). But, in the end, they didn't help Americans to become better-educated as a nation, nor did most of them manage to make their thoughts compelling to a larger group of people than the people who already had those kinds of thoughts (sorry for such an awkward sentence). That their public profile as a category has declined since the fifties does not really hurt matters, from what I can see, because their previous public profile did little to help matters (unless the guy in question actually put his theories to enough practical use that he invented something that actually works). I find it difficult to decry the decline of the public profile of these people. Call me nuts. I find it sadder -- and more destructive to America's self-respect -- when athletes behave like huns (on and off the field/court/ring) and make more money than the dignified pros Ali, Aaron, and Kareem put together. skip h - - ------------------------------ End of Zorn List Digest V3 #847 ******************************* To unsubscribe from zorn-list-digest, send an email to "majordomo@lists.xmission.com" with "unsubscribe zorn-list-digest" in the body of the message. For information on digests or retrieving files and old messages send "help" to the same address. Do not use quotes in your message. A non-digest (direct mail) version of this list is also available; to subscribe to that instead, replace all instances of "zorn-list-digest" in the commands above with "zorn-list". Back issues are available for anonymous FTP from ftp.xmission.com, in pub/lists/zorn-list/archive. These are organized by date. Problems? Email the list owner at zorn-list-owner@lists.xmission.com