From: owner-zorn-list-digest@lists.xmission.com (Zorn List Digest) To: zorn-list-digest@lists.xmission.com Subject: Zorn List Digest V3 #849 Reply-To: zorn-list Sender: owner-zorn-list-digest@lists.xmission.com Errors-To: owner-zorn-list-digest@lists.xmission.com Precedence: bulk Zorn List Digest Saturday, March 23 2002 Volume 03 : Number 849 In this issue: - Re: radical jewish culture and other favorite Z-list topics Re: radical jewish culture and other favorite Z-list topics Graham Haynes Re: Graham Haynes re: knocking on the gates Re: radical biologically jewish culture Re: knocking on the gates Re: radical biologically jewish culture Re: knocking on the gates Re: radical biologically jewish culture Re: radical jewish culture and other favorite Z-list topics Re: radical biologically jewish culture Re: knocking on the gates ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Date: Sat, 23 Mar 2002 15:01:37 -0800 From: "s~Z" Subject: Re: radical jewish culture and other favorite Z-list topics >>>The life of the mind is the answer--in and of itself, with no reduction to use-value and no demand for application or "relevance." Without a capacity to think, we can't see whether we are the effects of social and political stasis or potential movers of change.<<< While it would be nice if this were true, the mind has no Archimedean point from which to make such objective differentiations. - - ------------------------------ Date: Sat, 23 Mar 2002 15:09:02 -0800 From: skip Heller Subject: Re: radical jewish culture and other favorite Z-list topics on 3/23/02 3:01 PM, s~Z at keithmar@msn.com wrote: >>>> The life of the mind is the answer--in and of itself, with no > reduction to > use-value and no demand for application or "relevance." Without a > capacity > to think, we can't see whether we are the effects of social and > political > stasis or potential movers of change.<<< > > While it would be nice if this were true, the mind has no > Archimedean point > from which to make such objective differentiations. > what does "Archimedian" mean? skip h - - ------------------------------ Date: Sat, 23 Mar 2002 15:42:54 -0800 From: "john schuller" Subject: Graham Haynes Date: Sat, 23 Mar 2002 14:47:49 -0600 From: Joseph Zitt Subject: Re: Joseph and John On Sat, Mar 23, 2002 at 11:23:46AM -0000, Iain Kitt wrote: > > Am I the only person finding Joseph and John's exchanges are >becoming > > increasingly tiresome? >I certainly am. If you were you would have answered my question a long time ago and we would have been done. Anyway, I saw a great show in Seattle the other night. Graham Haynes with Eyvind Kang, Shazahd Ismaily and Kevin Sawka. Reminded me of Drum n Bass meets Ponga. I can't remember the name of the group but the music was outstanding. Shazahd is one of the most amazing bass players I have ever heard. (as well as the nicest guy on the planet.) Is anyone here familiar with his playing? Also, I haven't heard any of Graham Haynes other material. Any recommendations? _________________________________________________________________ Join the world’s largest e-mail service with MSN Hotmail. http://www.hotmail.com - - ------------------------------ Date: Sat, 23 Mar 2002 15:49:27 -0800 From: skip Heller Subject: Re: Graham Haynes on 3/23/02 3:42 PM, john schuller at superbadassmofo@hotmail.com wrote: > Also, I haven't heard any of Graham Haynes other material. > Any recommendations? He plays beautifully on Don Byron's MUSIC FOR 6 MUSICIANS and Uri's SPHERE MUSIC. skip h - - ------------------------------ Date: Sat, 23 Mar 2002 16:17:03 -0800 (PST) From: Ronald Hiznay Subject: re: knocking on the gates >ok - i was issued a challenge in one of my music >theory classes to >bring in a >piece of music that is truly innovative and has never >been done before. The only thing that I can think of that I can not find a derivation for (therefore being truly innovative)in the past hundred or so years are the recent inside-head sound movement which involves extremely high or frequencies able to be played on the human ear drum/resonant frequencies of jawbones, skulls, teeth, etc.... You should check out some of the things that Toshimaru Nakamura is or has been doing with no-input mixing board and very very very high frequencies although I don't really know how this will translate to CD, as microphone placement, type, frequency range, and the actual limit of 44100 Hz CD format have a great effect on sine waves around 13000 Hz... If you do buy any of these, do it to support Toshimaru Nakamura, and don't bother listening to them very much...(if you're wondering, I've seen Toshimaru Nakamura several times and quite honestly never heard anything remotely close to that on CD. There are times when you can't hear sounds, you can only feel them in your teeth, or as an unexplainable anxiety which goes away when he switches notes) and also Maryanne Amacher's "Ear Dances", probably the definitive work of this genre, although I can't say that these are exactly the way that Amacher wanted them to sound (above reasons)they can also be very hard to listen to as they begin to F*** with your head... I certainly can't recommend that you spend money on any of her room pieces, as I've actually heard these on CD and they're horrible, and I can't imagine that they do her any justice. although some people may argue that Amacher is a derivative of Cage and that Toshimaru Nakamura is simply a product of the Japanese noise scene. >In C (Riley) >Piano Phase (Reich) >Stimmung (Stockhausen) >any Ives symphony or concert band piece >Symphony No. 1 (Branca) >any old Sonic Youth album >Velvet Underground with Nico (Warhol album) >Pet Sounds (Beach Boys) >any Meredith Monk mmmmm....yeah, but none of that is "truely" innovative....they're all quite __________________________________________________ Do You Yahoo!? Yahoo! Movies - coverage of the 74th Academy Awards® http://movies.yahoo.com/ - - ------------------------------ Date: Sun, 24 Mar 2002 01:32:27 +0100 From: duncan youngerman Subject: Re: radical biologically jewish culture Joseph Zitt a =E9crit : > Someone once said that England and the US were two nations divided by > a common language=2E I'm suspecting that this is even more true as > English gets used elsewhere=2E It appears that, to some in Europe, the > word "Radical" has rather different connotations than to > Americans=2E That they insist that an artist stateside accept their use > of the term, however, is akin to an American getting annoyed at the > British use of the term "petrol" rather than "gasoline=2E" (Joseph, you remind me of William Safire, an elegantly erudite Republican linguist of sorts and political commentator who writes in the N=2EY=2ETimes= =2E Very keen on detail but astonishingly off-base on the larger picture=2E) The real problem of this Radical Jewish niche lies elsewhere, and has nothin= g to do with superficial intercontinental semantics=2E It has everything to do with: 1) the pretention of someone labeling/marketing one's own work as "Radical"(= in any sense of the term)=2E It's always been for critics or historians to even= tually decide whether someone's work or "culture" is that or not; 2) the pretention of an ultra-cosmopolitan post-modernist yuppie (there's absolutely nothing wrong with being that, most of us on this list are precis= ely that) draping himself in aboriginal Jewishness, about as removed from his ow= n lifestyle as a Californian suburbanite is from an Amazonian Papoo Indian, wi= thout wanting to relinquish anything of his pluralistic, la=EFc, consummer society comfort=2E "The prestige of ancient wisdom and suffering can be yours Now at discount price!" 3) the tastelessly artificial insistence on nailing ethnic identity (with in= this case an ambiguous dual dimension of race and religion) on sounds, at a time = when one had hoped the media exposure of ethnic cleaning in the Balkans, East Afr= ica or the occupied Palestinian territories would at least bring shame to those = who would wish to rekindle tribal fires=2E There is no clearly drawn line in the sky where nationalism or racism begin = and end, but we will notice that it is often simply when someone places origin (national, religious or racial) above all other considerations=2E This of co= urse has for effect to make the excluded (and even many of the included) feel ver= y uncomfortable, and, since the mid-20th century, sad and worried that the les= sons of history have been in vain, even among the educated=2E Apparently the rationalisation for this particular case was Jazz, supposedly "black radical culture", a very poor and narrow reading of this rich and ope= n musical form=2E The term "Jazz" was at first synonym for another, more famou= s 4-letter word starting with F, and never had the slightest pretentions or self-awareness as any kind of "radical culture" whether based on race or religion=2E It was good-time music, often a parody or cover of European oper= a, folk or marching tunes=2E The fact most of its players were black was fascinating= to whites much more than to themselves=2E Never could such fresh, playful, incl= usive, unpretentious music have sprung out of such a closed, normative, cerebral self-definition=2E 4) the appropriation of popular musicians like Burt Bacharach or Serge Gains= bourg under this artificial umbrella, confirming its racist essence, since, at lea= st as far as Gainsbourg is concerned, there has never been anything in his work, lifestyle or beliefs that could in any way be connected with Jewish religion= or culture=2E Therefore the only justification for his being displayed in this = niche is, like a dog, his biological species=2E Artists has gone overboard in the past and made embarassing mistakes (some irreparable) when trying to overreach their medium into the realm of social, political or spiritual matters=2E Wagner with racism and nationalism, Ezra P= ound with fascism, Eluard or Picasso with stalinism, Chic Corea with scientology= =2E=2E=2E I don't see any real threat coming out of Zorn's cute self-definition game, = but I do find it disapointingly reactionary, and tasteless=2E D=2E (P=2ES=2E) God!=2E=2E=2E is it actually that important to me in the first pl= ace that I have to spend an hour of my precious time argumenting it for the umpeenth time!? hopefully the last=2E) > - - ------------------------------ Date: Sat, 23 Mar 2002 16:38:14 -0800 From: skip Heller Subject: Re: knocking on the gates on 3/23/02 4:17 PM, Ronald Hiznay at letucepry@yahoo.com wrote: >> Pet Sounds (Beach Boys) not innovative? there are some textural and structural things in there that are completely innovative, not just to the context, but in the most basic sense of the word. What BW brought to songwriting and arranging is up there with Burt Bacharach and Stevie Wonder (who are so high up the I get kirnks in my neck just mentioning the three of them in one sentence). skip h - - ------------------------------ Date: Sun, 24 Mar 2002 11:49:23 +1100 From: "Julian" Subject: Re: radical biologically jewish culture << 4) the appropriation of popular musicians like Burt Bacharach or Serge Gainsbourg under this artificial umbrella, confirming its racist essence, since, at least as far as Gainsbourg is concerned, there has never been anything in his work, lifestyle or beliefs that could in any way be connected with Jewish religion or culture. Therefore the only justification for his being displayed in this niche is, like a dog, his biological species. >> While I agree mostly with your email, I do think that in this point, the incongruity is intentional. Sure Zorn may do some things that stretch the truth a little, but in this case I think he may actually be exercising a little tongue in cheek. He's produced these three tributes to musicians he likes, and because they are Jewish he's given them the funny title of 'Great Jewish Music'. Well, it may not be literally funny, but it is to him I'm sure... - - ------------------------------ Date: Sat, 23 Mar 2002 19:54:33 EST From: TagYrIt@aol.com Subject: Re: knocking on the gates - --part1_36.2504e705.29ce7dc9_boundary Content-Type: text/plain; charset="US-ASCII" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Well see, I was taking this challenge a lot more deeply than most responses have seemed to indicate, and I've been wracking my brain to think of something I find completely innovative. The only possible candidate I can come up with so far is MAYBE (and I'm not entirely convinced myself) Harry Partch. As much of a landmark as Pet Sounds is (and I do have the utmost respect for it) what does it offer that you couldn't get from crossing, say, the Four Lads with Aaron Copeland? Dale. In a message dated 3/23/2002 7:35:41 PM Eastern Standard Time, velaires@earthlink.net writes: > Pet Sounds (Beach Boys) > > not innovative? there are some textural and structural things in there that > are completely innovative, not just to the context, but in the most basic > sense of the word. What BW brought to songwriting and arranging is up > there > with Burt Bacharach and Stevie Wonder (who are so high up the I get kirnks > in my neck just mentioning the three of them in one sentence). > - --part1_36.2504e705.29ce7dc9_boundary Content-Type: text/html; charset="US-ASCII" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Well see, I was taking this challenge a lot more deeply than most responses have seemed to indicate, and I've been wracking my brain to think of something I find completely innovative. The only possible candidate I can come up with so far is MAYBE (and I'm not entirely convinced myself) Harry Partch. As much of a landmark as Pet Sounds is (and I do have the utmost respect for it) what does it offer that you couldn't get from crossing, say, the Four Lads with Aaron Copeland?

Dale.

In a message dated 3/23/2002 7:35:41 PM Eastern Standard Time, velaires@earthlink.net writes:


Pet Sounds (Beach Boys)

not innovative? there are some textural and structural things in there that
are completely innovative, not just to the context, but in the most basic
sense of the word.  What BW brought to songwriting and arranging is up there
with Burt Bacharach and Stevie Wonder (who are so high up the I get kirnks
in my neck just mentioning the three of them in one sentence).


 - --part1_36.2504e705.29ce7dc9_boundary-- - - ------------------------------ Date: Sun, 24 Mar 2002 01:57:18 +0100 From: duncan youngerman Subject: Re: radical biologically jewish culture Julian a =E9crit : > << 4) the appropriation of popular musicians like Burt Bacharach or Serge > Gainsbourg > under this artificial umbrella, confirming its racist essence, since, at > least as > far as Gainsbourg is concerned, there has never been anything in his work, > lifestyle or beliefs that could in any way be connected with Jewish religi= on > or > culture=2E Therefore the only justification for his being displayed in thi= s > niche > is, like a dog, his biological species=2E >> > > While I agree mostly with your email, I do think that in this point, the > incongruity is intentional=2E Sure Zorn may do some things that stretch th= e > truth a little, but in this case I think he may actually be exercising a > little tongue in cheek=2E He's produced these three tributes to musicians = he > likes, and because they are Jewish he's given them the funny title of 'Gre= at > Jewish Music'=2E Well, it may not be literally funny, but it is to him I'm > sure=2E=2E=2E I'll accept that it can be funny if he accepts that it can be irritating=2E D=2E > > - - ------------------------------ Date: Sat, 23 Mar 2002 19:48:26 -0600 From: Joseph Zitt Subject: Re: radical jewish culture and other favorite Z-list topics On Sat, Mar 23, 2002 at 03:01:37PM -0800, s~Z wrote: > >>>The life of the mind is the answer--in and of itself, with no > reduction to > use-value and no demand for application or "relevance." Without a > capacity > to think, we can't see whether we are the effects of social and > political > stasis or potential movers of change.<<< > > While it would be nice if this were true, the mind has no > Archimedean point > from which to make such objective differentiations. As with other points in this discussion, it's not an either/or. Of course we are to some extent the effects of social and political stasis. And of course we are potential movers of change. And recognizing each is crucial to recognizing the other. - -- | jzitt@metatronpress.com http://www.metatronpress.com/jzitt | | New book: Surprise Me with Beauty: the Music of Human Systems | | http://www.metatronpress.com/nj/smwb.html | | Latest CDs: Collaborations/ All Souls http://www.mp3.com/josephzitt | | Comma: Voices of New Music Silence: the John Cage Discussion List | - - ------------------------------ Date: Sun, 24 Mar 2002 11:59:22 +1100 From: "Julian" Subject: Re: radical biologically jewish culture > I'll accept that it can be funny if he accepts that it can be irritating. Well yeah, I'm sure that's another one of his goals... - - ------------------------------ Date: Sat, 23 Mar 2002 20:06:12 -0600 From: Joseph Zitt Subject: Re: knocking on the gates On Sat, Mar 23, 2002 at 04:38:14PM -0800, skip Heller wrote: > on 3/23/02 4:17 PM, Ronald Hiznay at letucepry@yahoo.com wrote: > > >> Pet Sounds (Beach Boys) > > not innovative? there are some textural and structural things in there that > are completely innovative, not just to the context, but in the most basic > sense of the word. What BW brought to songwriting and arranging is up there > with Burt Bacharach and Stevie Wonder (who are so high up the I get kirnks > in my neck just mentioning the three of them in one sentence). Which reminds me: the one "I have never heard anything like this before" experience that I recall was first hearing Public Image Ltd. in college. Yeah, they had roots in dub, etc, but I don't know of anything before that resembled what happened when Keith Levine's guitar, John Lydon's voice, and Jah Wobble's guitar (and the drummer, who I don't recall, and didn't seem too interesting) first came together. One problem with these kinda questions are that things that seem utterly unprecedented and without context when they first appear often are contextualized by what comes out in their wake. For example, having the archival John Cale/La Monte Young/Angus MacLise et al releases that have come out in the last couple of years put the Velvet Underground in context to some extent. Would they have sounded quite so groundbreaking if these earlier materials were better known? - -- | jzitt@metatronpress.com http://www.metatronpress.com/jzitt | | New book: Surprise Me with Beauty: the Music of Human Systems | | http://www.metatronpress.com/nj/smwb.html | | Latest CDs: Collaborations/ All Souls http://www.mp3.com/josephzitt | | Comma: Voices of New Music Silence: the John Cage Discussion List | - - ------------------------------ End of Zorn List Digest V3 #849 ******************************* To unsubscribe from zorn-list-digest, send an email to "majordomo@lists.xmission.com" with "unsubscribe zorn-list-digest" in the body of the message. For information on digests or retrieving files and old messages send "help" to the same address. Do not use quotes in your message. A non-digest (direct mail) version of this list is also available; to subscribe to that instead, replace all instances of "zorn-list-digest" in the commands above with "zorn-list". 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