From xmission.com!zorn-list-digest-request Fri May 3 00:06:34 1996 Return-Path: Received: from xmission.xmission.com by tfs.com (smail3.1.28.1) with SMTP id m0uFDxS-0003wUC; Thu, 2 May 96 23:03 PDT Received: (from root@localhost) by xmission.xmission.com (8.7.5/8.7.5) id XAA24302; Thu, 2 May 1996 23:49:40 -0600 (MDT) Date: Thu, 2 May 1996 23:49:40 -0600 (MDT) From: zorn-list-digest-request@xmission.com Message-Id: <199605030549.XAA24302@xmission.xmission.com> Subject: zorn-list-digest Digest V96 #17 X-Loop: zorn-list-digest@xmission.com X-Mailing-List: archive/volume96/17 Precedence: list MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/digest; boundary="----------------------------" To: zorn-list-digest@xmission.com Status: RO ------------------------------ Content-Type: text/plain zorn-list-digest Digest Volume 96 : Issue 17 Today's Topics: Screwed up zorn-list-digest delivery [ DMB5561719@aol.com ] Film Works III [ Torsten Nielsen ] RE: Ikue Mori again [ SteveSmith@kochint.com ] King Crimson and Dream Cobra [ "Peter Risser" ] Ruins/Bailey [ "Peter Risser" ] Filmworks III/PSF [ Egg1000@aol.com ] various [ plantarm ] Re: New Jon Rose? [ BarryGilb@aol.com ] Re: New Jon Rose? [ BarryGilb@aol.com ] ruins [ plantarm ] Masada scores [ Alain Potvin ] Re: Downtown scene & King Crimson [ "Patrice L. Roussel" ] ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 29 Apr 1996 22:02:10 -0400 From: DMB5561719@aol.com To: zorn-list-digest@xmission.com Subject: Screwed up zorn-list-digest delivery! Message-ID: <960429220210_103162375@emout12.mail.aol.com> Digests are still screwed up! I'm not getting everything! I'm pissed off since NEW YEARS! David Beardsley IMMP & Bink! music. . . dmb5561719@aol.com ... . . . Email for a copy of our catalog of strange beautiful music. . . .. .. . . .. . . . . . .. ... . .. . . . .. . . . Ah......................................................................... ............................................................................. ............................................................................. ............................................................................. ............................................................................. ............................................................................. ............................................................................. ............................................................................. ............................................................................. ............................................................................. ............................................................................. ............................................................................. ............................................................................. ............................................................................. ..................................................FIX ME!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!! ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 30 Apr 1996 07:56:00 +0200 (METDST) From: Torsten Nielsen To: zorn list Subject: Film Works III Message-ID: Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Has anybody heard "Film Works III" (yes, 3)? It's out on Toy's Factory Records. It features the "Thieves Quartet" stuff, some music for japanese cartoons (any info greatly appreciated!) and some stuff from commercials. Maybe Patrice could post the info? Jonas BTW Is the liner notes on the Toy's Factory releases in japanese? ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 30 Apr 1996 11:54:06 +0100 (BST) From: Alan Gordon To: zorn-list@xmission.com Subject: PSF records Message-Id: Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII does anyone know anything about a japanese label called (i think) PSF? all i know is that their records are in the same rack as the "nani nani" cd, and have quite strange covers. they are prohibitively expensive as are all japanese cds here, so i thought i'd ask before i buy. thanks, alan ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 30 Apr 96 08:30:46 PDT From: SteveSmith@kochint.com To: zorn-list@xmission.com, boster@ella.mills.edu Subject: RE: Ikue Mori again Message-ID: Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; CHARSET=US-ASCII Can't help with a discography... Patrice?;-) But here's the skinny on the two Tzadiks from last year... TZ 7201 Ikue Mori: Hex Kitchen with Catherine Jauniaux, Zeena Parkins, Hahn Rowe, David Watson, Kato Hideki, John Zorn TZ 7207 Death Ambient Ikue Mori, Kato Hideki, Fred Frith Both highly recommended. Best, Steve Smith SteveSmith@kochint.com ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 30 Apr 1996 09:51:36 +500 From: "Peter Risser" To: zorn-list-digest@xmission.com Subject: King Crimson and Dream Cobra Message-ID: <32523875357@cci.us.ccl.com> > Hello, > There is one thing i cannot understand. Why is there no connection (at least, > i don't know of any) between Robert Fripp and Zorn, Frisell etc.? what is more > strange (for me)is that there is practically no talk about RF&kc here, and not > a single word on Zorn etc. on Elephant talk, the crimso list. > Don't you find it strange? Does everybody here leaves a party when he hears, fo > r example , 'discipline'(which is, btw my favourite record)? I can't beleive it > ! > Imagine a Fripp-Frisell Band!!! > Keep on Hunting for the Snark, > Marcin Gokieli I really like King Crimson (72-74 especially) and I really like John Zorn, but for some reason, I think these two would have a hard time playing together. I think they might come at music from different angles. On a different note, I was thinking, if what if you could make a wish list of who you'd like to see Zorn work with next. I'm curious. Or maybe we could come up with our dream Cobra lineups. Anyone have any ideas? --- Train thy digits in the making of music that you may sing these verses at weddings and banquets, and gaze dumbly at the guest who hisses when you strum these chords. Peter Risser PRisser@us.ccl.com Systems Engineer 1-800-888-1140 x17 ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 30 Apr 1996 09:55:38 +500 From: "Peter Risser" To: zorn-list-digest@xmission.com Subject: Ruins/Bailey Message-ID: <325351B2189@cci.us.ccl.com> I'd just like to add a dissenting opinion. I thought that it was very disappointing. I didn't think Bailey sounded like he was together with the Ruins at all and the whole thing seemed kind of lost to me. I am a big fan of the Ruins and I would suggest Burning Stone, Stonehenge and defintely Early Works (which features Zorn on some tracks, including the amazing Dry Lungs). Also, Stonehenge on CD (which I think was out of print for a while) contains about 12 extra tracks, so it's a good buy. Also, my favorite listen is a 7" of short stuff (including Sac, an excellent song) that, along with Early Works, is from Bloody Butterfly. The 7" is also fully scored, so you can read along. Super! --- Train thy digits in the making of music that you may sing these verses at weddings and banquets, and gaze dumbly at the guest who hisses when you strum these chords. Peter Risser PRisser@us.ccl.com Systems Engineer 1-800-888-1140 x17 ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 30 Apr 1996 10:54:29 -0400 From: Egg1000@aol.com To: zorn-list@xmission.com Subject: Filmworks III/PSF Message-ID: <960430105428_386640692@emout17.mail.aol.com> I picked up "Filmworks II" on Toys Factory quite some time ago, and am hoping that the same store will carry the "Filmworks III" that was mentioned. I will of course let you know if I find it... PSF records is a pretty cool japanese label, the music presented by it runs the gamut from stoned out hippy psych rock to free jazz and all points in between. I wouldn't recommend just grabbing whatever PSF title is within reach and buying it, as I doubt that many of us here have tastes as broad as the types of music that they present. Tatsuya Yoshida's Musica Transonic trio (which falls into the stoned out hippy psych rock category) has a CD on PSF, and High Rise (one member of which is also in Musica Transonic) have a few. Other notable PSF releases are those by Mikami Kan and Toho Sara... other than that, I have little exposure to the label's other works. ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 30 Apr 1996 12:55:30 -0500 (EST) From: plantarm To: zorn-list@xmission.com Subject: various Message-id: <01I45J667SJ0001FX9@WABASH.EDU> Content-type: TEXT/PLAIN; CHARSET=US-ASCII Content-transfer-encoding: 7BIT hey y'all. how can i contact tzadik for ordering purposes? i am now seriously frothing over some ruins cd's, but wouldn'tcha know it, they don't exist anywhere within 100 miles of here.... i have phone, e-mail (obviously), netscape, and lots of paper and envelopes, just tell me how! eric M. ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 30 Apr 1996 19:31:56 -0400 From: BarryGilb@aol.com To: Zorn-list@xmission.com Subject: Re: New Jon Rose? Message-ID: <960430192553_284401705@emout12.mail.aol.com> In a message dated 96-04-30 14:31:13 EDT, simon.isys@isys.king.ac.uk (simon) write: >Hmm.. Does anyone, like me, think that Jon Rose is totally pretentious? I saw >him playing with Chadbourne and Chris Cutler in Berlin and I felt he ruined >it >with his clever toys (toy wind up violins) and general 'artiness' ; a >distinct >lack of improvisational savoire faire and musical inspiration.. I have found some groups of improvisors who don't do it the way we're used to seeing it done. Most of the free improvisors I've heard, seen and played with are descended from the Baily/Parker and then Frith/Zorn school. I've also been exposed to improvisors who have no idea what has come before them. Somehow they figured it was o.k. to bang on pots and pans, play a guitar with a tape measure, play sax mouthpieces, etc. There is a group here in Colorado called The Miracle who are a bunch of hippies and jazz musicians who are very theatrical and very noisy. A complete lack of sophistication and "savoir faire". And yet, they're a gas! I've seen other people, too, from different parts of the US who are just wailing and fun. Now, these people are very un-pretentious and I get the impression that you feel Jon Rose is pretentious. No arguement from me, as I've never seen him perform. Just my two cents worth. :-) ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 30 Apr 1996 19:39:25 -0400 From: BarryGilb@aol.com To: Zorn-list@xmission.com Subject: Re: New Jon Rose? Message-ID: <960430192914_387092928@emout12.mail.aol.com> In a message dated 96-04-30 14:31:13 EDT, simon.isys@isys.king.ac.uk (simon) write: >Hmm.. Does anyone, like me, think that Jon Rose is totally pretentious? I saw >him playing with Chadbourne and Chris Cutler in Berlin and I felt he ruined >it >with his clever toys (toy wind up violins) and general 'artiness' ; a >distinct >lack of improvisational savoire faire and musical inspiration.. I have found some groups of improvisors who don't do it the way we're used to seeing it done. Most of the free improvisors I've heard, seen and played with are descended from the Baily/Parker and then Frith/Zorn school. I've also been exposed to improvisors who have no idea what has come before them. Somehow they figured it was o.k. to bang on pots and pans, play a guitar with a tape measure, play sax mouthpieces, etc. There is a group here in Colorado called The Miracle who are a bunch of hippies and jazz musicians who are very theatrical and very noisy. A complete lack of sophistication and "savoir faire". And yet, they're a gas! I've seen other people, too, from different parts of the US who are just wailing and fun. Now, these people are very un-pretentious and I get the impression that you feel Jon Rose is pretentious. No arguement from me, as I've never seen him perform. Just my two cents worth. :-) ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 30 Apr 1996 21:06:27 -0500 (EST) From: plantarm To: zorn-list@xmission.com Subject: ruins Message-id: <01I460BVYGVS001GBE@WABASH.EDU> Content-type: TEXT/PLAIN; CHARSET=US-ASCII Content-transfer-encoding: 7BIT a question again: i've found a mail order source for ruins cd's. which would be a better purchase, "burning stone" or "hyderomastgroningem"? i've read a quite favorable review of the latter in alternative press, a magazine i trust at least moderately... eric M. ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 30 Apr 1996 21:55:20 -0400 From: Alain Potvin To: zorn-list@xmission.com Subject: Masada scores Message-Id: <1.5.4.32.19960501015520.0066ed1c@agora.ulaval.ca> Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" I desesperately searching for Masada's scores (parts). If you have some info... Thanks A young alto player! (Louis Potvin) ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 30 Apr 1996 22:57:55 -0400 From: Egg1000@aol.com To: zorn-list@xmission.com Subject: Re: ruins Message-ID: <960430225754_284569763@emout14.mail.aol.com> "Burning Stone" is the ultimate Ruins recording... nothing else that they have attempted before or since has captured the spark which existed through out the "Burning Stone" sessions. Keep in mind, though, that every Ruins recording is worth three times its weight in gold (and then some)... "Burning Stone" just happens to be their finest hour (as of yet). ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 1 May 1996 00:18:12 -0400 From: BarryGilb@aol.com To: MUSALLE@wabash.edu, Zorn-list@xmission.com Subject: Free Improvisation (was: New Jon Rose?) Message-ID: <960501001811_104073941@emout16.mail.aol.com> In a message dated 96-04-30 22:07:02 EDT, MUSALLE@WABASH.EDU (plantarm) wrote: >about this talentless improvising thing: this is actually not a >phenomenon without historical precedent. this is the Cage generation >finally getting their doctorates and getting settled into colleges, >where they teach the young and impressionable to screw around freely >in "new music ensembles", even if they can't play a lick on anything. >how do i know this? because i'm a college senior now, and our just >ex-music chair was a middle aged Cage freak who started a new music >ensemble that i was in. it's very joe populism stuff: anyone can and >should be able to play if they want. it was a fucking blast every time >we got together, whether doing pieces or just screwing off; and i >learned a lot about how to improvise, just by listening to other people >while i played every friday afternoon. we had our theatrical moments, >too. i wrote a piece for the group called "thor"; in a concert >performance, we improvised an "ending" of putting away our instruments >and cleaning up the stage while the music tapered off to one lonely >guy, wailing on the dijeridoo. i'd recommend to anyone that whether >they can "play" or not, they get a group together and improvise as >best they can. it's eddicational and stuff > >eric M. I'm totally with you on this. There is a large, amorphous group of improvisors in the Denver/Boulder area. We started playing together in the mid-80's, especially after saxophonist Jack Wright moved here. At any of our sessions, anyone is invited to play. We've had everything from "serious musicians" who couldn't loosen up to non-musicians who wouldn't shut up. The one thing that always made a session great was the level of communication that could develop between players. When there are good listeners present, the connection between players is on a level unlike any I've ever experienced anywhere else. We strive to create a safe environment where musicians aren't judged on their level of "chops", but on how well they listen. Knowing when not to play is as, if not more important than knowing what, when or how to play. We've done performances in shopping malls, in coffee houses, under freeway overpasses and in concert halls. We've jammed with famous musicians, non-musicians, dancers, film-makers and poets. The group membership is never the same and consists of anywhere fro three to 25 people. Almost everyone does other things musically and we all have very different tastes in music, but when we play together we have tons of fun. We start to have a hard time finding where the music ends and the "non-music" begins. These experiences have opened my mind up to possibilities in music that only Cage has been able to explain or demonstrate. I'm glad to hear that you and your school mates have had similar experiences. Barry Gilbert Boulder, CO ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 1 May 1996 12:29:53 -0400 From: Knutboy@aol.com To: zorn-list@xmission.com Subject: Re: ruins Message-ID: <960501122952_284844179@emout08.mail.aol.com> "Burning Stone" is the move. Tzadik title very good but not amazing. ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 1 May 1996 17:40:58 BST From: N Vassiliou To: zorn-list@xmission.com Subject: ruins Message-ID: Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; CHARSET=US-ASCII Can somebody give me a brief description of the Ruins?I really don't know what to expect. Thanks ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 01 May 1996 13:23:06 +0000 From: john shiurba To: "Patrice L. Roussel" CC: zorn-list Subject: Re: anybody knows the magazine CARBON 14? Message-ID: <318765BA.2620@sfo.com> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Patrice L. Roussel wrote: > > I just got a copy of the magazine CARBON 14 (issue #7, with an > interview of Elliott Sharp and a 7" with Wayne Horvitz, Zeena Parkins, > William Hooker, etc). Two questions: > > 1/ when was this issue released? > 2/ who else has appeared in the previous issues/7" (I also > have the issue #4)? I have their address as: Carbon 14 PO Box 29247 Philadelphia PA 19125 Eskimo was featured in Issue 4, which came out last summer. That would make issue #7 about Jan/96 since it's bi-monthly. shiurba ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 01 May 1996 12:42:47 -0700 From: "Patrice L. Roussel" To: Marcin Gokieli Cc: Zorn List , proussel@ichips.intel.com Subject: Re: Downtown scene & King Crimson Message-Id: <9605011942.AA28837@pdx144.intel.com> On Mon, 29 Apr 96 19:47:35 CET marfrank%plearn.bitnet@plearn.edu.pl wrote: > > Hello, > There is one thing i cannot understand. Why is there no connection (at least, > i don't know of any) between Robert Fripp and Zorn, Frisell etc.? what is more > strange (for me)is that there is practically no talk about RF&kc here, and not ^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^ Why should it be any? Two completely different kinds of music for two (mainly) different kinds of audiences. Is Fripp ever mentioned on lists/threads about Incus/Bailey/Parker? No, and they are all British and live in the same town :-). I think it is exactly the same with the NY downtown scene. Fripp music just does not fit at all in the genre. > a single word on Zorn etc. on Elephant talk, the crimso list. > Don't you find it strange? Does everybody here leaves a party when he hears, fo ^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^ That's the opposite that would surprise me. > r example , 'discipline'(which is, btw my favourite record)? I can't beleive it > ! > Imagine a Fripp-Frisell Band!!! ^^^^^^^^^^^^ Fripp-Frisell? Yes, I can imagine that. Patrice. ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 01 May 1996 20:58:07 -0400 From: Alain Potvin To: zorn-list@xmission.com Subject: Re: ruins Message-Id: <1.5.4.32.19960502005807.006657e0@agora.ulaval.ca> Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" At 21:06 30/04/96 -0500, you wrote: >a question again: i've found a mail order source for ruins cd's. which >would be a better purchase, "burning stone" or "hyderomastgroningem"? >i've read a quite favorable review of the latter in alternative press, >a magazine i trust at least moderately... I just heard Derek (Bailey) and the Ruins (tzadik). Like many improv CD's some moments are great and some are boring... > >alain > > > ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 2 May 1996 00:22:54 -0400 From: BarryGilb@aol.com To: zorn-list@xmission.com, MARFRANK%PLEARN.BITNET@plearn.edu.pl Subject: Re: Downtown scene & King Crimson Message-ID: <960502002254_285298857@emout07.mail.aol.com> In a message dated 96-05-01 12:05:12 EDT, you write: > There is one thing i cannot understand. Why is there no connection (at >least, >i don't know of any) between Robert Fripp and Zorn, Frisell etc.? I don't consider the two musical styles to be very similar, but your question reminds me of a weird thing that happened to me a few years ago. On a visit to NYC in the early 80's, I stopped into Lunch For Your Ears, a record shop where, I believe, Zorn once worked. I asked the owner, Manny, for whatever Zorn records he had. The store was an absolute pig-stye, records scattered everywhere, in no particular order. It was actually a coincidence that he was there because, he told me, he was having medical problems and his store's schedule was fairly hit and miss. He pointed me to some excellent recordings and insisted I buy a few things I had never heard before, like Musci and Venosta, Annette Peacock, Carbon, et.al. He was trying to get me out of the store quickly so he could close back up again when another guy came into the store (I later learned he was a well-known music critic for the Village Voice or Musician or something). Manny started talking to him about King Crimson (their 'reunion' records had just come out) and how amazing Fripp is. He told this other guy and me that he had a concert video tape of Fripp and that we would have to watch it. He pulled up two stools, sat us down on them, turned off the lights and started the tape. Just after it started playing, Manny told us that he'd be back in a few minutes, that we should keep an eye on the store and watch the whole concert. We sat there in the dark afraid to leave and captivated the whole scene and the video tape. Well, yes the concert was amazing, but the entire experience is what is burned into my memory. I walked away with about $200 worth of records and CD's, some of which have become my all-time favorites. I know this has nothing to do with your original question, but it brought back a weird memory that I thought you might appreciate. Barry Gilbert Boulder, CO ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 1 May 1996 23:06:22 -0700 From: jeffs@hyperreal.com (Jeff Spirer) To: zorn-list@xmission.com, MARFRANK%PLEARN.BITNET@plearn.edu.pl Subject: Re: Downtown scene & King Crimson Message-Id: Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" At 9:22 PM 5/1/96, BarryGilb@aol.com wrote: >I don't consider the two musical styles to be very similar, but your question >reminds me of a weird thing that happened to me a few years ago. On a visit >to NYC in the early 80's, I stopped into Lunch For Your Ears, a record shop >where, I believe, Zorn once worked. I asked the owner, Manny, for whatever Had to be far later than that. In the early 80s, Manny ran a store inside of Soho Comix, and in the mid 80s, inside of Rocks In Your Head. >Zorn records he had. The store was an absolute pig-stye, records scattered >everywhere, in no particular order. It was actually a coincidence that he >was there because, he told me, he was having medical problems and his store's >schedule was fairly hit and miss. This was early 90s. Zorn gave a "thank you" to Manny on the cover of the first Naked City Cd. Jeff jeffs@hyperreal.com http://www.hyperreal.com/axiom/ ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 02 May 1996 17:37:53 -0700 From: "Patrice L. Roussel" To: plantarm Cc: zorn-list@xmission.com, proussel@ichips.intel.com Subject: Re: various Message-Id: <9605030037.AA18259@pdx144.intel.com> On Tue, 30 Apr 1996 12:55:30 -0500 (EST) musalle@wabash.edu wrote: > > hey y'all. how can i contact tzadik for ordering purposes? i am > now seriously frothing over some ruins cd's, but wouldn'tcha know it, > they don't exist anywhere within 100 miles of here.... i have phone, > e-mail (obviously), netscape, and lots of paper and envelopes, just > tell me how! You cannot contact Tzadik directly. There are three mail order distributor: ------------------------------------------------------------------------------ WAYSIDE MUSIC P.O. Box 8427 Silver Spring, MD 20907-8427 Tel: (301) 589-1803 (new release info (recording)) Fax: (301) 589-1819 e-mail: CuneiWay@aol.com ------------------------------------------------------------------------------ Forced Exposure PO Box 9102 Waltham, MA 02254-9102 Tel: (617) 629-4773 (To reach FE and specifically Jimmy Johnson) Fax: (617) 629-4774. ------------------------------------------------------------------------------ Downtown Music Gallery 211 East 5th Street New York, N.Y. 10003 Tel: (212) 473-0043 Fax: (212) 533-5059 e-mail: dmg@panix.com ------------------------------------------------------------------------------ Patrice. ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 02 May 1996 11:55:09 -0700 From: Stickman To: zorn-list@xmission.com Subject: Re: Downtown scene & King Crimson Message-Id: <3189050D.2C72@warwick.net> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Patrice L. Roussel wrote: > > On Mon, 29 Apr 96 19:47:35 CET marfrank%plearn.bitnet@plearn.edu.pl wrote: > > > > Hello, > > There is one thing i cannot understand. Why is there no connection (at least, > > i don't know of any) between Robert Fripp and Zorn, Frisell etc.? what is more > > strange (for me)is that there is practically no talk about RF&kc here, and not > ^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^ > Why should it be any? Two completely different kinds of music for two (mainly) > different kinds of audiences. > > Is Fripp ever mentioned on lists/threads about Incus/Bailey/Parker? No, and > they are all British and live in the same town :-). I think it is exactly > the same with the NY downtown scene. Fripp music just does not fit at all > in the genre. > > > a single word on Zorn etc. on Elephant talk, the crimso list. > > Don't you find it strange? Does everybody here leaves a party when he hears, fo > ^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^ > That's the opposite that would surprise me. > > > r example , 'discipline'(which is, btw my favourite record)? I can't beleive it > > ! > > Imagine a Fripp-Frisell Band!!! > ^^^^^^^^^^^^ > Fripp-Frisell? Yes, I can imagine that. > > Patrice. Hi- just wanted to add my biased two cents. I was an avid Fripp/Crimson/Yes/Bruford/etc & all prog. rock fan for many years. I've ammassed quite a monsterous collection over the years- all of which collects dust now. You see, what happened to me was that I based my opinion on the worth of music in its ability to be pre-programmed "complex" (ie-Crimson post 1980, Yes "Close to the Edge" or "sound chaser") or in a musician's ability to have incredible chops(Bruford, Fripp). Well, anyway, i'm somewhat of a musician myself(guess what I play, duh), and I thank John Zorn from setting me free from thinking of music in the way stated above. Nothing bores me more now than a prog. rock band. When I started listening to Zorn I realized that my way of aproaching music was so constrictive, I remember hearing the 1st Naked City CD Thinking, "these guys are great players", and then halfway through the CD I heard bits of "free-jazz" and "thrash"...and I felt like "what's going on???" Since then, i've sought every Zorn/downtown CD I can find. The Downtown/zorn stuff is huge & vast, dare I say, an open system for those of you with degrees in philosophy. Its freedom for someone trapped by prog. rock. I auditioned for a band last year that were prog. rock, but didn't tell me, they were just so excited about having a stick player in their little world(you know the Tony Levin trip). I said, "what are your influences?" they:" Oh, lots of Jazz, rock, a focus on weird improv, diff. time signatures. we're indescribable." Well, needless to say, they were a didactic prog rock band. I brought a copy of some Naked City & Painkiller, & Last Exit. They were like, "We don't like that stuff because anything goes". I realized, they were playing with what they thought was a large spectrum, when in fact they had created huge walls around their ability as players. So anyway, I don't think the Crimso & Zorn world will meet any time soon, though I do realize that there were a lot of elements to Fripp that would classify as "downtown". I remember Fripp living in NYC and doing all those little concerts of completely improved "Frippertronics", Starless & Bible Black (side 2) still smokes. In fact those Crimso years(72-75) were wonderful for imrovised rock, and i don't think they ever surpassed them. So anyway, I hope I haven't pissed anybody off. Remember its just my 2 cents, & like i'm not hurting anybody by thinking these thoughts, i think. -Jim -------------------------------- End of zorn-list-digest Digest V96 Issue #17 ********************************************